Parents who are PART OF THE PROBLEM

[Acid]

My son just got home from school. He's 9--the kids in his class are 9 and 10.

The kids shared their Christmas presents. My son said that his friend got an Xbox 360--which is okay...except the games he got are Halo 3, Kane & Lynch, and Assassin's Creed.

I asked my son if this child's parents are aware of videogames at all, in any sense. That they've come a long way since Pac-Man and Donkey Kong, in particular. I mean, hell, even my son is surprised that this kid is allowed to play these games--which I own and which my boy KNOWS he's not allowed to touch.

WTF? It's parents like this kid's who are the reason that loons like Jack Thompson even have careers. They'll watch him play, realize that the game is totally inappropriate, and blame the industry.

Sick fucks.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

I don't think it's fair to assume that they are unaware of the games' content, or that they'd be kneejerk reactionaries upon discovering it. Maybe they're totally ok with their son playing violent games. That wouldn't be a decision I'd agree with, but it's a possibility.

[DoomMunky]

Well sure, there's plenty of shitty parents out there, but what can you do?

Oh that's right! Let's LEGISLATE!

[noun]

A couple of boys in my daughter's fifth grade class play Grand Theft Auto. I know this because the teacher confiscated the game when one of them brought it to show and tell.

My wife worked with a woman who mentioned her nine year old son was playing GTA Vice City. Alarmed, I listed some of the activities and quests in the game (killing pedestrians and hookers for cash, numerous murder quests) and she just shrugged it off. "Oh, he doesn't do any of that. He just drives around." Uh-huh.

I think ignorance is part of the problem, but parents flat out not giving a shit is the bigger problem. Unfortunately, being stupid then breeding is still not a crime.

[MyNameIsWill]

Halo 3 really isn't that bad. Assassin's Creed is pushing it for a 10-year old, though Kane & Lynch should have waited a few years.

[Acid]

Well sure, there's plenty of shitty parents out there, but what can you do?

Oh that's right! Let's LEGISLATE!

That's the sad part--it's the shitty parents who, when they realize just how violent the content that they buy for their little precious buttercups is, end up supporting the Hillary Clintons and Joe Liebermans and their draconian censorship bullshit.

[TimElhajj]

The kids shared their Christmas presents. My son said that his friend got an Xbox 360--which is okay...except the games he got are Halo 3, Kane & Lynch, and Assassin's Creed.

Kid could be lying. Ask your son to ask the kid in question if he's ever been laid. If he says he has, he's probably lying about the games too.

[beloved one]

What problem exactly are these parents a part of? Oh, they are probably a part of the steadily declining violent crime rate. Seriously, kids of all times have grown up role playing, in actual real life, shooting indians and chopping each other up with stick swords. Also little girls dolls (which are a touchable 3d representation of a person) have sex and their heads get ripped off by their brothers.

I admit there is a lot of desensitization and explicit information, and certainly parents should be guiding their kids into such issues... but bad parenting has a thousand manifestations, and I see bad parents as the start and end of such problems, and definitely there is no larger video game issue which bad parenting should be described as just a part of.

[Morkilus]

Parents just don't understand. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI0dCVwdedE)

[Timemaster Tim]

Seriously, kids of all times have grown up role playing, in actual real life, shooting indians and chopping each other up with stick swords. Also little girls dolls (which are a touchable 3d representation of a person) have sex and their heads get ripped off by their brothers.

Right. But they still don't get to go to R-rated movies, and they shouldn't be gaining access to equivalent in video games either.

[BDGE]

I dunno, I think it mostly depends on the kid as well. You can't assume that any and every 9 yr. old is going to be as impressionable to R-rated material. I saw Robocop and other R-rated films in the the theaters when I was about that age with my father. There was an understandable trust that I could handle the content and he was aware. There is a judgement call to make and learning to deal with the content within context was something I was able to separate at a very young age. (But certainly won't by every kid)

Not to say the parents weren't just naive here, but maybe the kid IS capable of handling the content intelligently?

[Sarkus]

There are still a lot of clueless parents, even among those from age groups where gaming is/was pretty common. When I worked in retail I always tried to point out the "M" rated stuff to the parents (we enforced the age requirements) and there were many cases where the parents were genuinely surprised about the content.

On the other hand, I also got yelled at by parents who felt I was interfering in their parental rights.

I don't favor legislation, but I wish the industry would do a better job of explaining why there are ratings. A national TV campaign would help, among other things. Just putting small displays in some retailers isn't going to have an impact on awareness.

Edit: On the other hand, public awareness of the movie ratings system is pretty high and you still see parents letting kids watch graphic movies either on DVD or in theatres, so you can only go so far with education.

[MyNameIsWill]

Right. But they still don't get to go to R-rated movies, and they shouldn't be gaining access to equivalent in video games either.
Y'know, I went with some older teenagers (16 or so, one was 18) to watch Charlie Wilson's War and Sweeney Todd. Three of us wanted the former and two wanted the latter. I was ID'ed and told that while the 18 year old can go watch Sweeney Todd, the other teenager had to go with me. First time it ever happened to me.

[shang]

Not to say the parents weren't just naive here, but maybe the kid IS capable of handling the content intelligently?

Exactly. It's people who go up in arms about things like this that are a lot more annoying than the parents in question. I played a lot of violent games in my early teens and watched horror movies which were rated 16+ etc. I wouldn't have any problems with letting my own kid play any game if he seems like he's smart enough to handle it.

Even if realistic computer graphics have gone forward a lot from my youth, they're still just cartoony pixel guys we are talking about and no different than plastic soldiers "killing" each other.

[BDGE]

BTW, is Halo 3 really rated M? For piles of blue alien goo? Or was I just that bored during the cutscenes that I missed Master Chief strangling the arbiter with his massive railgun while a naked Cortana noodledanced in the background?

[MyNameIsWill]

Halo 3 should have been rated T. It's a far cry from Assassin's Creed and definitely something like Kane & Lynch.

PS: If th Halo movie is ever made, with identical content, it will be rated PG 13.

[Tom Ohle]

Yeah, I'm in the "so who gives a shit if the kid plays it?" camp... whether it's appropriate for the kid comes down to how the kid was raised. I watched dozens of slasher flicks as a kid (yes, my parents would let me rent anything I wanted) and I have yet to kill or maim anyone. My daughter will occasionally be around when the wife and I are watching a non-PG-movie, and even at four years old, she knows that this stuff is fake, and that it's not nice to hurt people. Parents are stupid sometimes.

[beloved one]

Right. But they still don't get to go to R-rated movies, and they shouldn't be gaining access to equivalent in video games either.

There's no differing access. A parent taking a mature video game home to an underage child is not like a kid being rejected access to R-rated movies. Rather, it's the same as a parent renting or buying an R-rated movie and allowing their children to watch, and so I still do not think it's fair to single video games out.

[Quitch]

Meh, I find the cries of bad parenting because small kid X saw adult game Y bloody tiresome. Let's see some studies showing how nine year olds playing M rated games turn into monsters and THEN we can start the cry, otherwise we really are just pulling the line from our ass. The most traumatising thing my brother saw as a kid was Cinderella, it gave him nightmares for weeks, proof really that the line really did come from our ass. Especially as there is a downward trend in youth violence across the West, and has been for over a decade.

[MikeJ]

Not to say the parents weren't just naive here, but maybe the kid IS capable of handling the content intelligently?

I think it does depend on the kid. My parents let me watch R-rated movies when I was around 10, and it wasn't a big deal to me. My biggest concern would be a kid getting nightmares from some stuff, but that depends a lot on a kid's personality. I think I first saw movies like Aliens and The Terminator when I was about 9 or 10. Later I saw it with a friend when we were about 14 and he was covering his eyes and stuff, which I thought was just crazy.

[theKevin]

I was in first grade when the movie Speed (with Keanu Reeves) came out. My parents and me went to go see it (even though I was five, and it was rated R). The next day at school, I told my friends about it in detail.

Later that night, the parents of one of my friends called my parents and said it was bad that they were letting me see "R" rated movies. My dad told them to mind their own business. The next day, the kid said he had orders not to speak to me and we haven't talked since.

Now, 13 years later, in high school, he's openly homosexual. Not even making that up.

[DoomMunky]

Meh, I find the cries of bad parenting because small kid X saw adult game Y bloody tiresome. Let's see some studies showing how nine year olds playing M rated games turn into monsters and THEN we can start the cry, otherwise we really are just pulling the line from our ass.Jesus christ, how much longer are people going to demand demonstrable behavioral impact as the only indicator of the negative effects of media?

http://www.erniea.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2006/02/ch950215.gif

[BDGE]

I'm called a homosexual everytime I play Halo 3 online, which actually is the most undertsandable rating for M, thus maybe we the people are the real problem...(not me though! I mostly just play Picross!)

[MikeJ]

Jesus christ, how much longer are people going to demand demonstrable behavioral impact as the only indicator of the negative effects of media?

What indicators do you propose?

[Boss]

Do any of you guys who think this is ok have children of your own?

[Quitch]

I have a brother, he was playing Quake at 5. My parent's didn't take issue with it. They have more of a problem with movie 18s because some of that is truly graphic, while games aren't even close yet, and a gaming M isn't close to a movie 18.

Of course, people with children are probably the worst judges possible.


Jesus christ, how much longer are people going to demand demonstrable behavioral impact as the only indicator of the negative effects of media?

Damn you reqirement of proof! Why won't the young people take it on faith? Just like we proved how rock music caused violence... oh wait, that turned out to be a crock. Well I'm sure we're right this time!

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Should ANYBODY be playing Kane & Lynch?

[theKevin]

I wish PC Gamer posted their columns online. About four years ago Chuck Osborn had a great column about how mass media has desensitized us all.

[theKevin]

Do any of you guys who think this is ok have children of your own?

There is a difference, between taking the Hiliary Clinton stance on games and trying to dictate what is right for other people's kids; and letting informed parents expose their children to whatever media you want.

[Hans Lauring]

Do any of you guys who think this is ok have children of your own?

Yes. Two.


Disclaimer:
I don't think it's ok if the parents have no idea what those games are about, but like Tom Ohle I was watching Christopher Lee as Dracula when I was 9 and good 80's action and slasher flicks when I was a teenager (not just gore - even Dirty Harry had nekkid bouncing breastes. The horror, I was merely a kid!) and see no real harm done if the parenst have made a decision about this..

[Thierry Nguyen]

I saw Predator when I was eight.

My two-year old has already seen Robocop, Pan's Labyrinth, 28 Weeks Later, Gears of War, Dead Rising, etc. (the wife does counter-balance with the whole "learning and interacting and letters and numbers" deal)

[Jay Adan]

Right. But they still don't get to go to R-rated movies, and they shouldn't be gaining access to equivalent in video games either.

Actually, if they bring their parents they CAN go to R Rated movies. Only NC-17 restricts the age of attendees based on age regardless of who brings you.


I saw Predator when I was eight.

My two-year old has already seen Robocop, Pan's Labyrinth, 28 Weeks Later, Gears of War, Dead Rising, etc. (the wife does counter-balance with the whole "learning and interacting and letters and numbers" deal)

My son was quoting lines from ALIENS by the time he was 3. When he was 10 we started doing the yearly "Zombie Movie" for Halloween. Zombies still creep him out to this day. :)

[roguefrog]

Started watching rated R movies at the tender age of 5. Totally knew they were fake. Never had nightmares about them.

I'm very laid back, easy-going, and ultra non-violent. Some kids can handle it.

Definitely thought some of my friends parents were over protected douchebags when I was in their company.

[jerri blank]

I was in first grade when the movie Speed (with Keanu Reeves) came out. My parents and me went to go see it (even though I was five, and it was rated R). The next day at school, I told my friends about it in detail.

Later that night, the parents of one of my friends called my parents and said it was bad that they were letting me see "R" rated movies. My dad told them to mind their own business. The next day, the kid said he had orders not to speak to me and we haven't talked since.

Now, 13 years later, in high school, he's openly homosexual. Not even making that up.

I think I must be slow, but I'm going to need your help understanding the point of your last paragraph.

As for the topic at hand, I don't have kids, and I don't believe they should be allowed to play violent video games. I don't think there should be legislation, but I don't think much of any parent who'll buy his kid Kane & Lynch or GTA.

And no, I can't point to any causal relationship between violent video games and actual violence, but isn't it enough to say that kids should be kids for as long as possible without getting all sophisticated about the hookers and drugs and killing and such?

And no, it doesn't suddenly become okay if the parents are buying age-inappropriate games for their kids in an informed manner. Plenty of parents do stupid shit to/with their kids all the time, including throwing booze parties for them, pimping them out to their druggie friends, starving them in a basement, etc. etc.

If someone could find a constitutionally sound way to require a license before someone could have kids, I'd get behind that in a heartbeat.

[Stroker Ace]

It's a trap Kevin; don't fall for it.

[Lorini]

So someone explain to me *exactly* what the problem is?????? I don't understand the problem. My kid plays what he wants when he wants, always has. He doesn't play M games at other people's house because other parents have concerns which is their right which I respect. But I fail to see the problem in M games or R content for my kid. He's been playing games since he was 6 years old. He's been watching movies since then too. Naturally he plays and watches what he wants, he doesn't play or play M games or R rated movies, we don't care about the ratings.

So do tell me what's going to happen to him or how he's going to be because he's played these M rated games and watched R movies. Thanks.

[BDGE]

So do tell me what's going to happen to him or how he's going to be because he's played these M rated games and watched R movies. Thanks.

All we know for sure is that he's got a bright future in the QT3 community! So what did HE think of Mass Effect and Bioshock anyway??

[ProStyle]

So someone explain to me *exactly* what the problem is??????

But I fail to see the problem in M games or R content for my kid.

Do you have any more rhetorical questions, or does that about wrap it up?

[jerri blank]

So someone explain to me *exactly* what the problem is?????? I don't understand the problem. My kid plays what he wants when he wants, always has. He doesn't play M games at other people's house because other parents have concerns which is their right which I respect. But I fail to see the problem in M games or R content for my kid. He's been playing games since he was 6 years old. He's been watching movies since then too. Naturally he plays and watches what he wants, he doesn't play or play M games or R rated movies, we don't care about the ratings.

So do tell me what's going to happen to him or how he's going to be because he's played these M rated games and watched R movies. Thanks.

I think a kid who ingests a steady diet of violence will be a hardened, less empathetic human being with a diminished sense of the value of human life. Do I have any scientific proof of that? Nope. Does it make sense? Hell, yeah.

Just curious - has your kid always eaten what he wants when he wants? Is he expected to do homework at all? Are you his parent, or are you just running a boarding house in which he happens to reside?

[DoomMunky]

I think a kid who ingests a steady diet of violence will be a hardened, less empathetic human being with a diminished sense of the value of human life. Do I have any scientific proof of that? Nope. Does it make sense? Hell, yeah.

Just curious - has your kid always eaten what he wants when he wants? Is he expected to do homework at all? Are you his parent, or are you just running a boarding house in which he happens to reside?QFMFT

A-fucking-men.

[beloved one]

Plenty of cultures have differing standards, people walk around naked all the time, 13 year olds have sex, little boys go out and smash monkey brains. People seem to turn out ok anyway, if society is moving in the direction where people don't care if they see a digital representation of someone's face getting shot off, then what _is_ the big deal?

My little cousin has grown up playing H games, and the whole family loves him, he's great fun.

[Drastic]

So after all this exhaustive research, we've learned conclusively that the best parenting advice on QT3 is... someone else's.

Brilliant.

[Lorini]

I think a kid who ingests a steady diet of violence will be a hardened, less empathetic human being with a diminished sense of the value of human life. Do I have any scientific proof of that? Nope. Does it make sense? Hell, yeah.

Just curious - has your kid always eaten what he wants when he wants? Is he expected to do homework at all? Are you his parent, or are you just running a boarding house in which he happens to reside?

Of course, my kid weighs 400 pounds and is a high school dropout. Now does that make you feel good about your silly beliefs? Years previous to that, he had been expelled from several schools for going on riots.

The reality is (and yes people from this forum have met him), he's quite slim, is taking calculus, Mandarin, and AP chemistry in 11th grade. In order to get into those classes I suspect he's done homework. He's a very nice responsible child. He's not perfect (his favorite phrase in Mandarin is "I'm too lazy to do my homework"), but I'd rather be around him than people who want to thrust their irrational beliefs down other people's throats just because.

[shang]

Just curious - has your kid always eaten what he wants when he wants? Is he expected to do homework at all? Are you his parent, or are you just running a boarding house in which he happens to reside?

What does this have to do with anything? Allowing a child to consume fictional entertainment is not the same thing as not setting any limits or not having any discipline. If someone truly does not believe that video games or movies can cause any damage, then by what reason would he forbid them?


I think a kid who ingests a steady diet of violence will be a hardened, less empathetic human being with a diminished sense of the value of human life. Do I have any scientific proof of that? Nope. Does it make sense? Hell, yeah.

Anecdotally, based on the folk I grew up with, the guys who were the most messed up as adults were the ones who were overly and fanatically sheltered from everything as kids. I don't have any scientific proof either, but it makes sense to me.

[Tom Ohle]

I think a kid who ingests a steady diet of violence will be a hardened, less empathetic human being with a diminished sense of the value of human life. Do I have any scientific proof of that? Nope. Does it make sense? Hell, yeah.

Just curious - has your kid always eaten what he wants when he wants? Is he expected to do homework at all? Are you his parent, or are you just running a boarding house in which he happens to reside?
I call bullshit. As a child I digested a tremendous amount of violence -- watched Nightmare on Elm Street as a 7-year-old, and went on to watch plenty of other stuff that had blood and guts and gore. I played violent games; sure, the visuals aren't weren't as detailed, but the essence of being violent was still there. I played the original video-game scapegoat, Mortal Kombat, at age 9 or 10, and now, at age 26, I have yet to rip someone's head and spine out. I'm probably one of the most empathetic people in the world (edit: pardon the hyperbole), particularly when it comes to violence -- I feel bad enough for a mouse that gets caught in a trap; I haven't bought my daughter another fish because I felt bad about the last $2 goldfish that died. Why? Because my parents raised me to appreciate life, to be kind to others, and to know that violence in media is FAKE and that it's not something you should do to other people. My four-year-old daughter likes watching grown-up movies even though she doesn't understand them... but if there's a violent part, she doesn't say "oh man I'm going to kill someone!"... instead, she goes, "that's not very nice of that man." Be a goddamn parent, people. Stop shoving your kids in front of the TV and actually do some damn parenting. This stuff drives me up the wall.

[MyNameIsWill]

I think I must be slow, but I'm going to need your help understanding the point of your last paragraph.

The point is, obviously, that the other kid's bad parenting lead him to become a homosexual.

[calvin940]

I love Bugs Bunny, Wile E. Coyote, Road Runner, Tweety and Sylvester et. al. I don't go running around trying to drop anvils on people's heads.

Nobody knows a child better than a parent. That person is the one armed with the most knowledge to make decisions about the child in all circumstances.

[Lorini]

All we know for sure is that he's got a bright future in the QT3 community! So what did HE think of Mass Effect and Bioshock anyway??

He didn't play Bioshock because I bought it for the PC and his PC won't run it at any kind of acceptable framerate. He enjoyed ME quite a bit, enough to play through it a second time.

The other thing that is bugging me about this thread is the implication that the less you give your kid or the more things you deny your kid, the better the parent you are. And there just isn't a correlation. I parent based on values and expectations which are clearly spelled out. Whatever has to happen to assure that my values are respected and my expectations met I will vigorously go after. He can't be a person who is disrespectful in my house and still expect to do things he enjoys. He has to do his homework to earn the play time he loves. He gets what is reasonable for my budget and his time. It's not that difficult. I don't deny him things just to go on some kind of a power trip because it's not necessary.

[Anaxagoras]

My son was quoting lines from ALIENS by the time he was 3. When he was 10 we started doing the yearly "Zombie Movie" for Halloween. Zombies still creep him out to this day. :)

Zombies still creep me out. And I'm 31 years old.


The reality is (and yes people from this forum have met him), he's quite slim, is taking calculus, Mandarin, and AP chemistry in 11th grade. In order to get into those classes I suspect he's done homework. He's a very nice responsible child. He's not perfect (his favorite phrase in Mandarin is "I'm too lazy to do my homework"), but I'd rather be around him than people who want to thrust their irrational beliefs down other people's throats just because.
You have an awesome kid, Lorini. Seriously.

[Bahimiron]

What problem exactly are these parents a part of?

Even if you choose to dismiss the existence of a problem with children playing violent video games, which is your opinion and is entirely understandable, you can't deny that these parents are part of a completely different problem. Our problem as gamers with reactionaries who want to legislate to solve their problems. Its parents like these who will realize too late that the game they bought their kid features a bank robbery where you're allowed to gun down innocents as they leave their bank while your 'bald up front party in the back' cohort screams things like 'fuck this! Fuck you and fuck all that!'. Then they'll lose their shit and damn if they don't decide to raise a stink about it.

Raise a stink about something that they could have prevented by paying attention to the damn label on the damn video game.

[Lorini]

Even if you choose to dismiss the existence of a problem with children playing violent video games, which is your opinion and is entirely understandable, you can't deny that these parents are part of a completely different problem. Our problem as gamers with reactionaries who want to legislate to solve their problems. Its parents like these who will realize too late that the game they bought their kid features a bank robbery where you're allowed to gun down innocents as they leave their bank while your 'bald up front party in the back' cohort screams things like 'fuck this! Fuck you and fuck all that!'. Then they'll lose their shit and damn if they don't decide to raise a stink about it.

Raise a stink about something that they could have prevented by paying attention to the damn label on the damn video game.

I still don't understand the problems parents are a part of. Parents will lose their shit because their kid plays violent video games? You honestly believe that?

[Jason McCullough]

It's not any different from all the other media formats they're exposed to, games are just new. Look at the comic book mess of the 1950s, for example - new format, holy crap that's different from the bloody mess I grew up on. Not really, but oh well.

[roguefrog]

A friend of mine would restrain himself from watching R movies because his parents forbid it. He literally had to wait until he was 17 and his parents would physical cover his eyes in the movie theater if a questionable scene happened to show up. Example being a James Bond bed scene.

[Tom Ohle]

Right, if anything is an issue here it's parents that don't educate themselves about what their kids are doing or can't be bothered to pay attention. It's entirely feasible to have two sets of parents who do the same thing -- in this case, buy their child a copy of GTA -- but who are at two different ends of the spectrum. If my own child asks for a copy of Violent Game X when she's 10, there's a good chance I'll get it for her because I know what she's getting into and I know that my parenting has given her a solid moral compass and the ability to tell right from wrong. Then some other parent might buy the game without knowing what they're doing, buying it just because the kid asked for it, and then they're likely going to get all pissy because the product they bought, which is clearly labeled as a Mature game, contains objectionable content. In any event, it comes down to responsible parenting -- denying your kids a game just because it's violent is ignorance. Denying it because you think it may negatively affect your child is something else altogether. But this "kids shouldn't play violent games, period" argument is just stupid.

[runesword forger]

My message board parenting on these subjects:

* I don't generally fret about violence or sex much in games or movies, at least not for their own sake. Dunno if I'd go for Halo for a 9 year old, but it's not particularly worrisome.

* I wouldn't let a kid get involved with the general Halo online community. I'd have to get the kid a friend's list that was cool. I'd do that in any case.

* Parents are responsible for the exposure of kids to all of this, and a lot of them look the other way because they like electronic babysitting. This is the real failing, and it's doubly noxious when they turn around and bleat about the horrors of media.

* I do fret about so-called dating shows on TV and the like, where titillating meat market attitudes seem to get a free ride. "Pro" Wrestling goes along these lines with their soap storylines. Lots of parents seem to have no issues with this stuff, so maybe it's just me.

* On the other hand, my 12 year old son used to watch The Sopranos with me. I thought that show did a good job of showing the repercussions of (mostly) realistic violence.

* I also wouldn't approve of my kids putting in hundreds or thousands of hours in an MMO. There are some addictive qualities in them, and it just tends you to pull away from socializing.

* All of these issues can be minimized when you actually put yourself into your kids' lives... board games are big around my house.

* I don't think "letting kids be kids" is all about keeping them ignorant about the world. I let my kids be themselves by letting them follow their interests. Issues of sex and violence and the media will come up naturally, and parents can be a helpful guide.

[DoomMunky]

But this "kids shouldn't play violent games, period" argument is just stupid. Hell, some adults are unsuited to violent or "mature" content. Everyone is different, and everyone responds to different things.

The question for me is whether there is a coarsening effect on society that this violent media is having, and whether we should try to limit that or not. Someone earlier brought up the good point that perhaps it's not a bad thing for our society to get desensitized to violence; it's just the direction of the society. A friend of mine likes to make the argument that if for whatever reason we all decided to, we could do some pretty (in my mind) horrible stuff legally, and it would be the will of the collective society. It's the system we've set up that allows us to cut off all aid to illegal immigrants, or possibly build giant walls at the borders, and deny basic health care to the poor, and so on and so on.

For me, I still remember the first time I was genuinely shocked by graphic violence: I was in fourth grade and reading the second book of David Edding's Belgariad series. The main characters get attacked by bandits at the beginning of the book, and Durnik the smith buries an axe in a guy's stomach, causing his intestines to spill out in "purple coils". I had never come across such a graphic depiction of violence and almost stopped reading.

Since then my tolerance for violence has risen quite a bit, but I still don't seek out movies like Hostel or Saw, though I used to love Peter Jackson's Dead Alive. For me its a question of the 'realness' of the violence. I was pretty unsettled by the violence in No Country for Old Men, thanks in large part to how casually and brutally the Bardem character dealt it out, and also thanks to the filmmakers' pointing out the humanity of the guys who suffered it. That shot of the blood dribbling from Brolin's pant leg as he walked across the border made me shudder.

[Bahimiron]

I still don't understand the problems parents are a part of. Parents will lose their shit because their kid plays violent video games? You honestly believe that?

Yes, I honestly believe that there are parents who don't realize what they are purchasing for their kids and will act in a reactionary manner (lose their shit) when they do realize it. You don't?

[jerri blank]

The point is, obviously, that the other kid's bad parenting lead him to become a homosexual.

That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. Thanks.

[Bahimiron]

Speaking of the problem, could this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150196531904/) be the ultimate gaming collectable?

Edit: Fixed what, DoomMunky? Fixed what, I say!

[DoomMunky]

Speaking of the problem, could this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150196531904/) be the ultimate gaming collectable?

Fixed.

Edit: Hey! No retconning your misuse of BB tags! Foul! Foul!

[Kael]

I have 2 boys, both who love video games. For my wife and I the right decision was to not let them play to graphic of games until they were 16. They played them a bit at friends houses, and we did allow some games on a case by case basis (we allowed a star wars shooter because it seemed less authentic to us).

At 16 we basically let them play whatever they wanted though after bad attempts to balance WoW with real life they lost access to MMORPG's. After getting some very good grades we have allowed one son to use xBox online, if he maintains balance with that and the things he has to do he will retain it.

I should mention that the ban on MMORPG's went for the entire family. We each (including myself and wife) were online way to much and it was exerting a toll on everyone in the family. So the rule that we removed it from the boys because their real lives were suffering applied equally to the adults of the household.

These are the rules that worked well for us. I know we held a pretty tough line on the gun games, but with our boys it was the right call. They didn't play video games casually (we spent a lot of years with limited video game time too) and when they werent playing video games they were thinking about them. I wanted that time in other efforts and game types then simply concentrating on head shots.

I can't say that those decisions are the best for other kids. In my mind thats the point of parenting, to decide what works and doesn't work for your own kids. I wish there was a global standard that resulted in the most successful child, we would all follow it, but thats not the way kids work.

So some parents may allow violent games, another may not care if their children watch movies with sex scenes, another may not care if their child cusses. To each their own, as long as they are doing what in their heart they think is best for their child more power to them. As mentioned there will always be some parents that dont care at all, but to make that distinction based on a rules difference in their household seems hasty.

[Lorini]

Yes, I honestly believe that there are parents who don't realize what they are purchasing for their kids and will act in a reactionary manner (lose their shit) when they do realize it. You don't?

You are saying that either the labeling is insufficient or that they don't read it and then freak out. Except that the labeling is pretty damned explicit. That would be like them purchasing any other item and not reading the label, wouldn't that be on them and not on the government or socieity?

I am 100% in favor of labeling the content as Mature or explicit and including the exact reasons why it's Mature, like strong language, violent content, sex scenes, whatever. If the parents don't read the label then they will have consequences, just like any other item that you purchase with limitations. Right now there are a number of things that you can buy that can be used in a dangerous way or that people think that they can be used in a dangerous way. Those things are labeled appropriately. I would hate to have a society where people aren't given the opprotunity to make their own decisions.

[Bahimiron]

You are saying that either the labeling is insufficient or that they don't read it and then freak out. Except that the labeling is pretty damned explicit. That would be like them purchasing any other item and not reading the label, wouldn't that be on them and not on the government or socieity?

If you honestly believe that the labeling is so explicit that no parent is ignorant of the meaning of said labeling, you're fooling yourself.

If you honestly believe that people always read the labels on anything they buy, then etc etc etc

And yes it's on them and not on the government. Which is what the problem is. Cos they don't want to take responsibility for a failure on their own part so they act in a reactionary manner (or lose their shit) and start writing to their congressperson saying 'WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN?!'. When what they mean is 'won't somebody please think about the children so I don't have to'.

[Lorini]

If you honestly believe that the labeling is so explicit that no parent is ignorant of the meaning of said labeling, you're fooling yourself.

If you honestly believe that people always read the labels on anything they buy, then etc etc etc

And yes it's on them and not on the government. Which is what the problem is. Cos they don't want to take responsibility for a failure on their own part so they act in a reactionary manner (or lose their shit) and start writing to their congressperson saying 'WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN?!'. When what they mean is 'won't somebody please think about the children so I don't have to'.

Ok I see what you are saying. But there's nothing that can really be done about that. We would end up without a lot of things, not just video games, if disclosure/labeling was made irrelevant.

[Bahimiron]

Well, no. There's nothing that can really be done about any of it. For most of us, anyway. Retailers can try to educate parents. Parents can start being more proactive in doing their job. Etc etc.

I was just saying that there is a problem. Unfortunately, it's not a problem with easy answers. Fortunately the people in charge are showing themselves to be surprisingly sensible, even when the people aren't. The population votes to legislate game ratings, the supreme court overturns it. Thank god.

It's apt to remain a problem until the generation of gamers gets old enough that they become the bulk of the voting public and the bulk of the leadership. Of course, by then, we will all decide that we need to outlaw whatever it is our kids or grandkids are doing that annoys us. Like vurt or ultraporn or something.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

* I wouldn't let a kid get involved with the general Halo online community. I'd have to get the kid a friend's list that was cool. I'd do that in any case.

This is a good idea. I stopped playing TF2 because I realized once again that random public servers are lame and the value of a game like this comes partly from the people you play it with.


* On the other hand, my 12 year old son used to watch The Sopranos with me. I thought that show did a good job of showing the repercussions of (mostly) realistic violence.

The Wire is even better. There are a lot of movies at TV shows out there that portray violence in the same terms as Alexander cutting the Gordian knot*, but there are certainly those that don't.

*Not that I think this is HARMFUL, just that it's stupid and trite.

[beloved one]

Not to lj it up too hard, but I agree entirely with Adam Eayrs' post. I think the real shitty underside of gaming is not the violence and sex that people tend to bitch about, but instead the life-sucking addictions.

Being a hardcore gamer is quite an alternative lifestyle which its easy for kids to fall into, and definitely there is a price that gets paid. (Apathy, amotivation or social withdraw, as well as lost sleep.)

Thats not some soft "sure sounds right to me" argument either... There is a plethora of anecdotal as well as documented cases in the public domain, relating to criminal neglect, health effects, and family/social collapses.

[Tom Ohle]

Riiight... but the point some of us have been trying to make is that it's still down to parents. A kid won't become addicted to video games if you don't let that kid sit there and play games for five hours at a time. Limit their playing time to reduce the effects of gaming, much as you might limit the amount of candy they eat to stave off fattening. Pa.rent.ing.

It's unfortunate that oftentimes obesity and extensive gaming go hand-in-hand. I know several people who have overweight kids, and they inevitably play games for far too long every day. It's lazy parenting, simple as that. Parents need to learn to get their kids off the couch and into sports, take them out of the house, not use the TV as a babysitter all the time, etc. Parenting! Damnit!

Some more (edit): in the end, even if a kid gets really bad as in Adam's example... it comes down to the parents having some level of authority over their children. Take the game away if it's a problem. If the kid cries for an hour, tough. Cries for a day, tough. At some point he'll stop and he'll have learned some sort of lesson.

[Lorini]

Addictions are a problem. Obesity is a problem. Not parenting is a problem. Video games aren't a problem in and of themselves. Which is all I'm saying.

[worm]

What problem again? The inevitable apocalypse that takes form as one of the BIGGEST SCHOOL SHOOTINGS EVER? Is your problem that every corpse will be tea bagged?

Doom, UO, and Kingpin didn't make me into a pyscho killer. They just made me a guy who calls people faggot over the internet.


Thats not some soft "sure sounds right to me" argument either... There is a plethora of anecdotal as well as documented cases in the public domain, relating to criminal neglect, health effects, and family/social collapses.
You know that anecdotal isn't a good thing when you're pointing out evidence, right?

[beloved one]

Yes, how did you pick up on that?

Did you know that a "documented case in the public domain" is not an anecdotal case? Also, you know that "Posts: 17" doesn't mean dramatically shots me in the face for nothing at all, right? Clearly violent games have warped your fragile little mind, this is the kind of thing that everyone is afraid of.


You know that anecdotal does not mean "undocumented", right?

Oh, you edited that out from under me, how dirty.

[Grifman]

Here's an interesting study for those wanting more than anecdotal evidence regarding the impact of media:

http://www.apa.org/releases/media_violence.html

This one is unique and rather interesting:

http://world.std.com/~jlr/comment/tv_impact.htm

I suspect there are others out there but this is what 5 minutes of google fu got me.

That said, I think one would have to be naive to think media portrayals have no impact on us as human beings. Huge corporations spend billions of dollars on media advertising. If it didn't work to some extent, they why are they bothering? And if advertising works, then other media has to have some sort of impact on us.

[Wobbo]

I have a brother, he was playing Quake at 5. My parent's didn't take issue with it.
My father started me on Doom when I was 8 years old. By the time I was ten we would deathmatch each other.

My mother never wanted me to play Mortal Kombat though, fortunately I wasn't interested.

[malkav11]

That said, I think one would have to be naive to think media portrayals have no impact on us as human beings. Huge corporations spend billions of dollars on media advertising. If it didn't work to some extent, they why are they bothering? And if advertising works, then other media has to have some sort of impact on us.

Advertising makes you aware of their product. That's its purpose. I'm not convinced that it has any sort of insidious secondary impact (other than annoying the shit out of me much of the time.). I have never felt compelled to buy a product simply because it was advertised to me. However, if I become aware of a product that fits the profile of the sort of thing I would buy, then I might very well do just that. Certainly it can be twisted by only partially informing you of the product's attributes, but that's a separate issue.

Actually, if anything the strongest effect advertising has had on me is to get me *not* to buy certain products in order not to reward the stupefyingly awful advertisements. Old Navy clothing, for example.

[Rward]

I was standing in CNA once (a book/media store branching out to PC games), browsing their titles when 3 kids (boys - 2 probably between 11 and 14 and the 3rd about 8) came in with their folks. The father said they could have a game each. All 3 of them went straight for Manhunter (or could have been Manhunter 2).

They took it back to their folks and the dad had a "well - if you reaalllly want it but Idon't think you should get it" look on his face and the mom said something like "Umm... I'm nt sure they should be getting that ..."

I thought that there was no way in hell I would ever let my kids play that game (especially at that age) so I said "you don't want to be buying that for them .. Its really not good, no meant for kids"..

The looks I got from the 3 youngester ...!
The father asked if I was sure and I said Damn Sure!
He thanked me and the kids had to find something else.

Half the screw up of the story is even though it has the over 18 age restriction on the box, the cashier would have taken the money and given them the game anyway, even though it was pretty clear that the parents were not going to be playing it...

Parents are manipulated by kids, all the time, but its up to the parents to ensure that their kids get a healthy upbringing.

Shoving a plastic bag over someones head and shanking them in the neck with a screwdriver is not part of the healthy upbringing I'd want my kids to experience.

I also wouldn't want my kid playing in the sandpit with someone that knows the in's and out's of death by plastic bag shank.

[Jafisob]

Well sure, there's plenty of shitty parents out there, but what can you do?

Oh that's right! Let's LEGISLATE!

I concur with your sarcasm.

You can't legislate away stupid parents. The parents(or any stupid people) will find a way to screw up no matter what you do. If you manage to plug one hole they will find another.

[Brendan]

Such is the rich tapestry of human society. Who cares? One day we'll need some of the kids who grew up playing and watching violent media and we'll be glad their parents didn't care.

[worm]

Yes, how did you pick up on that?

Did you know that a "documented case in the public domain" is not an anecdotal case?
I'm sorry. Do you must mean "documented case" as a single happening, or something else that no one could imagine?


Also, you know that "Posts: 17" doesn't mean dramatically shots me in the face for nothing at all, right?
?


Clearly violent games have warped your fragile little mind, this is the kind of thing that everyone is afraid of.
Yes, it all started with Risk and Warhammer.


Oh, you edited that out from under me, how dirty.
Yeah I had to wrestle with your inability to type "documented anecdotal cases". Speaking of which, watching wrestling probably contributed to all this.


All 3 of them went straight for Manhunter (or could have been Manhunter 2).
Uh, Manhunt.

[Rward]

Uh, Manhunt.

Yeah - I was 60/40 on that one and didn't feel like googling..

[Hawkeye Fierce]

To be fair, the Manhunter games were pretty violent too.

[Athryn]

I was in first grade when the movie Speed (with Keanu Reeves) came out. My parents and me went to go see it (even though I was five, and it was rated R). The next day at school, I told my friends about it in detail.

Later that night, the parents of one of my friends called my parents and said it was bad that they were letting me see "R" rated movies. My dad told them to mind their own business. The next day, the kid said he had orders not to speak to me and we haven't talked since.

Now, 13 years later, in high school, he's openly homosexual. Not even making that up.


Way to be an enormous homophobe.

[Brian Rucker]

Parents aren't going to blame themselves no matter how blameworthy they may well be. Parents are voters. Politicians blame games egged on by consultants and money-raking demagogues. Gamers sit back, eat cheetos and get indignant on forums.

Who wins?

[worm]

Parents aren't going to blame themselves no matter how blameworthy they may well be. Parents are voters. Politicians blame games egged on by consultants and money-raking demagogues. Gamers sit back, eat cheetos and get indignant on forums.

Who wins?
There hasn't been a good gory game since SoF. So I guess, I win? By enjoying the hell out of the gigantic amount of non-violent perfectly kid friendly games? While all the 11 year olds play shit like Manhunt.


Way to be an enormous homophobe.
Maybe he's coming out and trying to admit that Speed has repressed him for all these years?

[Qenan]

http://www.erniea.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2006/02/ch950215.gif

Game, set, match. It's a sign of the poverty of video games that so few AAA titles are non-violent.

[Galadial]

Just to add fuel to the fire. Lego Star Wars involves skewering humans, droids and monsters with a light sabre. I don't think violence per se is the problem - it's more to do with context ie compare the effects of home violence with TV violence, impoverished lifestyles versus liberalism and common sense within the home . Most children understand that video games are make believe, as is TV and most children's story books. Look in any childs playground - all the boys are playing at being Power Rangers and Mutant Ninjas. I doubt many of them will become gangsters, thugs or wrestlers. I don't really filter my children's video games for violence - more for inappropriate language and behaviour. My kids watch me play team fortress and quake wars yet have perfect school records. The problem is that parents must teach their children core values - respect, discipline, hard work etc etc - the kids work all the rest out for themselves. Besides which, kids take more notice of their peers than their parents so core values are about as much as you can expect to get over. Video games have little or no effect on well balanced human beings.

[beloved one]

Yeah I had to wrestle with your inability to type "documented anecdotal cases". Speaking of which, watching wrestling probably contributed to all this.

I agree wrestling has negatively impacted my early development as well! Um, I assure you I was never trying to type "documented anecdotal cases" by the way. Just read "documented cases in the public domain" as "shit you see in the news" and "anecdotal" as "shit you don't see in the news and know about anyway".

I pray this thread diaf, since everyone in this 3 page long thread is basically in agreement that:
Showing mature content to kids is up to parental discression, whether you personally think it's bad for them or not.
Other people need to be better parents and take responsibility for their kids.
Video games are good.
Legislation against video games is bad.

I mean really people are arguing against video game censorship and over-legislation one way or another, but it's just preaching to the choir. This is a hallowed venue of video game worship, and there has not been a single heretic exposed by this 85+ post inquisition.

[worm]

I agree wrestling has negatively impacted my early development as well! Um, I assure you I was never trying to type "documented anecdotal cases" by the way. Just read "documented cases in the public domain" as "shit you see in the news" and "anecdotal" as "shit you don't see in the news and know about anyway".
Well, in my mind anecdotal refers to single cases that don't really prove anything.

Let's forget that word. Anyway there are lots of news reports that families are broken up over hardcore gaming, is this on a regional, national, global, or universal scale? How many reports are there? Is it a tie with families broken up over alcohol, is it more than families broken up over whether to get the pet neutered or not?

If there is such a significant amount of broken families for this cause(hardcore gaming) why can it not be said that a family about to break will actively seek one or another types of asocial behavior?


I mean really people are arguing against video game censorship and over-legislation one way or another, but it's just preaching to the choir. This is a hallowed venue of video game worship, and there has not been a single heretic exposed by this 85+ post inquisition.
I guess knowing about and enjoying the topic of the debate does make us uniquely unqualified to talk about it.


Game, set, match. It's a sign of the poverty of video games that so few AAA titles are non-violent.
We're using violent as a boolean now? Doesn't the degree of violence count for something? For example, Halo 3 single player vs. Stranglehold single player. People can screech about the behavior of Halo 3 players online, but I'm pretty sure that is moot in comparison to the behavior of everyone online.


Jesus christ, how much longer are people going to demand demonstrable behavioral impact as the only indicator of the negative effects of media?

http://www.erniea.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2006/02/ch950215.gif

I don't even see why that comic is game, set, match. Unless it's some meta humor it just seems like he says yes to a bunch of things that quickly go from common sense(glamorizing violence) to completely impossible to prove(stunt empathy) in the second panel, and then acts like they're a basis for answering another completely impossible to answer question.

Honestly, the advent of graphic violence in the media media really was the point in history where the human race lost it's wonderful historic empathy? Don't you guys know anything?

[beloved one]

I guess knowing about and enjoying the topic of the debate does make us uniquely unqualified to talk about it.

Nah, I just meant there should ideally be a foil, some media mindcontrolled shill (or at least a reasonable trollish facsimile thereof), to beat up on.

I'd agree video game addiction making gaming 'evil' is a more interestingly debatable subject, but I was really just using it to show how compartively weak the social evidence is for video game violence causing social harm. (I think it's a bit OT to talk about the addiction angle.) If you don't believe some handful of cases like I mentioned really exist, I am not going to go scouring the net to news links about WoW divorces, infants getting starved to death, or koreans dying in cafes... I'll just let it go at that.

[worm]

If you don't believe some handful of cases like I mentioned really exist, I am not going to go scouring the net to news links about WoW divorces, infants getting starved to death, or koreans dying in cafes... I'll just let it go at that.
I believe there's a handful, but I ain't ever held no plethora in my hand.

[beloved one]

If you are really married to plethora, then we are going to have to go back to the hated anecdotal cases... of which there are 5 or 6 in this thread alone already, to which I could theoretically add my own collegiate woes upon. But I won't, because really the gaming was just background noise for me.

[Funkula]

Jefe: I have put many beautiful pinatas in the storeroom, each of them filled with little suprises.

El Guapo: Many pinatas?

Jefe: Oh yes, many!

El Guapo: Would you say I have a plethora of pinatas?

Jefe: A what?

El Guapo: A *plethora*.

Jefe: Oh yes, you have a plethora.

El Guapo: Jefe, what is a plethora?

Jefe: Why, El Guapo?

El Guapo: Well, you told me I have a plethora. And I just would like to know if you know what a plethora is. I would not like to think that a person would tell someone he has a plethora, and then find out that that person has *no idea* what it means to have a plethora.

Jefe: Forgive me, El Guapo. I know that I, Jefe, do not have your superior intellect and education. But could it be that once again, you are angry at something else, and are looking to take it out on me?

[Slainte Mhath]

Riiight... but the point some of us have been trying to make is that it's still down to parents. A kid won't become addicted to video games if you don't let that kid sit there and play games for five hours at a time. Limit their playing time to reduce the effects of gaming, much as you might limit the amount of candy they eat to stave off fattening. Pa.rent.ing.

Absolutely. I'm in total agreement with Tom and the others who have been making this point. My household is anecdotal evidence of this at work. I have 3 kids, a boy who is 17, a boy who is 8 and a girl who is 4. The 17 year old just came to live with me in the past year (but visited all the time before that). He had problems in school (bad grades) last year, basically because his mom and stepdad were never home in the evenings and he was left to play WoW or PS2/Xbox all night and never did any homework or studied. When he came to live with me, the parenting foot came down, summer school was attended, expectations were made clear, and help was made available. Now he's doing much better in school, and he still has access to WoW and console games, he just manages his time better (though there is still room for improvement, he's a 17 year old male after all!).

My younger kids have grown up gaming since they've seen me and their older brother doing it as long as they can remember. My younger son loves his DS, the PS2 and the Xbox, but is forbidden from playing anything that we deem inappropriate. He is allowed to play Halo in single player mode, but that's just blasting aliens and joyriding in the Warthog. My daughter is addicted to NickJr.com, but we've noticed that since she's been playing on there her vocabulary and her letters and numbers comprehension have improved, so we limit her to a couple of half hour sessions a day and feel it's fine.

All my kids are healthy. The younger ones LOVE to play outside, especially the boy, who is constantly building forts in the woods to play army/explorer/park ranger and/or playing football with his friends. Since they balance the video game and TV watching time with plenty of outdoor activity my wife and I feel that it's fine for them to have access to the PC and consoles when they want to play.

Granted, my love of and knowledge about videogames (my wife couldn't be less interested in them) is a major advantage in being able to properly parent in this situation. I can see a couple who has no interest in games having a hard time trying to decide what's appropriate and what's not, or even how much time is too much time spent on the videogames. Still, every media discussion I've seen on the subject has mentioned the ratings system, websites that discuss content, and the balance of game time with physical activity time, so any concerned parent should be able to find resources they need to make informed decisions and allow their children to play games without being adversely effected by them.

Also, I love how the media rarely mentions the positive effect of many games. Not just hand-eye coordination, but reading comprehension, money and inventory management, decision making skills and logical reasoning are all abilities that are used when playing a wide variety of games. I would argue in many cases games are healthier for your kids than TV is.

[beloved one]

Not just hand-eye coordination, but reading comprehension, money and inventory management,

Good call, reminds me I can't wait to get off work and get back to Mass Effect!

[Murph]

Glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks of The Three Amigos almost anytime anyone uses the word "plethora." Which is one of my favorite words.

And, coincidentally, pretty high on my list of favorite movies. Need to watch that again. Damn funny.

[LesJarvis]

In a way, each of us has an El Guapo to face. For some, shyness might be their El Guapo. For others, a lack of education might be their El Guapo. For us, El Guapo is a big, dangerous man who wants to kill us. But as sure as my name is Lucky Day, the people of Santa Poco can conquer their own personal El Guapo, who also happens to be *the actual* El Guapo!

[Slainte Mhath]

Good call, reminds me I can't wait to get off work and get back to Mass Effect!

No, no. You should go outside and play instead. Have you not been reading this thread?! ;-)

[worm]

If you are really married to plethora, then we are going to have to go back to the hated anecdotal cases... of which there are 5 or 6 in this thread alone already, to which I could theoretically add my own collegiate woes upon. But I won't, because really the gaming was just background noise for me.
So, in this thread alone we're talking seven!? I can see my mind is already on a mine cart ride; the destination being somewhere just past blown, so by all means continue.

[DennyA]

My two-year old has already seen Robocop, Pan's Labyrinth, 28 Weeks Later, Gears of War, Dead Rising, etc. (the wife does counter-balance with the whole "learning and interacting and letters and numbers" deal)
Pan's Labyrinth? Fuck.

Guess you're skipping the whole "innocent childhood" stage, eh?

[Athryn]

Guess you're skipping the whole "innocent childhood" stage, eh?


"Childhood innocence" is an invention of the wealthy Victorian era. Not saying that it's a bad thing, but that a long, extended childhood is actually a relatively recent invention.

[Wheelkick]

Really? Well, it is in us humans to continue to evolve, and to invent to make our lives better.
Long childhood for the win, I say!
Personally, I'm using my money to make my whole family enjoy a long, extended times of childhood whenever I can.

[MattKeil]

Really? Well, it is in us humans to continue to evolve, and to invent to make our lives better.
Long childhood for the win, I say!

Hell, I'm 31 and have a substantial collection of Transformers in my spare "nerd" room. We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing.

That said, my dad let me see Alien when I was 8 and I loved it. No nightmares, no worries, and he took me to see Aliens in the theatre when I was 10, and it was awesome. And hey, I haven't killed anyone ever!

The OP is asinine. If the kid in question is able to handle the content and understands the difference between fantasy and reality, how is it in any way bad parenting to let him play something like Assassin's Creed or Mass Effect? The only worry I'd have about my own son playing something like Halo 3 would be the colossal idiocy and hatred he would encounter online, which almost invariably comes from college age "adults."

[Peter Frazier]

My childhood has extended to 44.
I'm not going to say much in this thread, since I managed to get enough attention about my no-video games style of parenting in the 'traditional Christmas' thread.
What I have noticed as a teacher is that there isn't much correlation between knowledge of violent video games and classroom achievement. Not at all. Of course, I don't teach many middle-class kids so the many examples of well-adjusted kids who have a combination of a nurturing home environment and educated, aware parents (such as presented here) haven't walked through my door. I'm sure they exist, just not in my drawing area.

[Damien Neil]

Watching him playing - sullen, laconic, eyes totally glazed over, bitterly fighting his parents for another 15 minutes of medieval 2 or whatever it was before they dragged him off, took me right back to my childhood. Contrast that to laughter that I'd hear up the road when the two were on the trampoline, or the excitement and genuine intelligence in playing pretend.

The bitterest argument I ever had with my parents was over a book. I wanted to keep reading to find out how it was going to come out. They (reasonably) wanted me to go to bed, so that I'd be able to wake up in the morning in time for school.

I was definitely sullen and bitterly fighting my parents, and my eyes were probably glazed over while I was reading.

Are books bad for children?

[Galadial]

My childhood has extended to 44.
I'm not going to say much in this thread, since I managed to get enough attention about my no-video games style of parenting in the 'traditional Christmas' thread.
What I have noticed as a teacher is that there isn't much correlation between knowledge of violent video games and classroom achievement. Not at all. Of course, I don't teach many middle-class kids so the many examples of well-adjusted kids who have a combination of a nurturing home environment and educated, aware parents (such as presented here) haven't walked through my door. I'm sure they exist, just not in my drawing area.

Are you saying that there is no advantage in playing video games, or, that video games generally correlate with poor achievement in school? As you hinted, isn't the home environment the overwhelming positive or negative factor that affects childhood achievement, behaviour, values etc?

[Drastic]

What I have noticed as a teacher is that there isn't much correlation between knowledge of violent video games and classroom achievement. Not at all. Of course, I don't teach many middle-class kids so the many examples of well-adjusted kids who have a combination of a nurturing home environment and educated, aware parents (such as presented here) haven't walked through my door. I'm sure they exist, just not in my drawing area.
This seems wrong. You're supposed to take observations of your slice of experience, and project that as universal truth over the entire world because it feels right.

I suggest editting your post and trying again. We can't have this kind of behavior on the internet.

[malkav11]

*shrugs* I game, and I read a lot, and I watch movies and TV on DVD if they're any good. I feel best about the gaming, to be honest - the reading I can do almost literally anywhere at any time unless I'm meant to be working. My gaming facilities are a bit more limited. And movies and TV are the most passive experience out there. But it's not like these things are mutually exclusive.

But really, I don't see it being a big deal how a person likes to enjoy themselves as long as it's not preventing them from adequately fulfilling their responsibilities (work, school, providing for their family, whatever.)

...or hurting other people, obviously. But I don't believe any of the above do that.

[worm]

Googled for 30 seconds and found the following (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070404162247.htm)
Yeah, I guess it's pretty obvious that graphic violence in the media is stunting everyone's empathy after reading those!

God, I mean a test using children playing PEE WEE FOOTBALL would probably demonstrate a similar short term increase in aggression. The third study is interesting. Though for some reason the comic stuck in my head as not being about children's exposure, unless 'us' was used to refer to children who are Calvin's age.

[GuildBoss]

The winner of my "Dumb Fuck Parent Award" for 2007 went to the mom that brought her 3 kids (ages somewhere in the 3-6 range) with her to theater to see "30 Days of Night". You go girl!!

[Keto]

Another study detailed in the book surveyed 189 high school students. The authors found that respondents who had more exposure to violent video games held more pro-violent attitudes, had more hostile personalities, were less forgiving, believed violence to be more typical, and behaved more aggressively in their everyday lives [...] "We were surprised to find that exposure to violent video games was a better predictor of the students' own violent behavior than their gender or their beliefs about violence," said Anderson.

Sweet, correlation is now causation.

I don't take study soundbites seriously at all without more information. In my profession (medicine), respected scientific journals will publish seemingly well-done studies that briefly change practice until someone later tears them apart for shoddy methods, faulty conclusions or out-and-out data fabrication. Observational studies such as this one don't carry a lot of weight when you're trying to determine causation. The process of critically reading a study takes enough effort that a cottage industry has sprung up in medicine to do it for you with respected names in the field summarizing studies. Of course, now you have to trust them, etc etc.

Fun holes to poke in studies:

1. How did they pick their 189 students? One school? Randomized? What are the demographics of the group? For example, they could be from the rural South and thus include more hunters.

2. How are the questions being asked? It's terribly easy to lead with questions in a survey. "Would you consider yourself pro-life or pro-abortion?" Very few people would label themselves pro-abortion.

3. Is the right question being asked? For example, if kids are allowed to play whatever game they want due to parental indifference, is it the game or the indifference that results in callous, uncaring behavior? (My choice of words is deliberately leading there :p)

4. Is there a motivation besides academia for the study's author(s)? Check out that sweet new book about violent video games from the authors of the above study!

5. Is the effect significant? If the kids use higher "noise blasts" and scuffle a bit in school but otherwise have similar rates of violent crime, etc. who cares if they press the noise button longer?

[Supersport]

The only issue I have with this is that the parents bought Kane and Lynch.

What kind of parents would by that kind of crap? I mean, do some research before buying it.

[Galadial]

Sweet, correlation is now causation.

3. Is the right question being asked? For example, if kids are allowed to play whatever game they want due to parental indifference, is it the game or the indifference that results in callous, uncaring behavior? (My choice of words is deliberately leading there :p)



Quite the most pertinent point. It's just as probable that violent individuals, or those with a propensity to violence are attracted to violent games. However, it's a great leap of faith then to imply, insinuate or otherwise suggest, that a propensity to violence leads to violence. Presumablyin our evolutionary heritage we all had a propensity to violence so that we could hunt, protect our clans and our children. The human species survived and still managed to produce individuals who are noted for their peaceful behaviours. I would class myself as aggressive in that I want to win when I play competitive sports, do well at work and protect my family. Outside of those scenarios I'm totally uncompetitive. Studies like these mean nothing.