Rurouni Kenshin

[Brian Koontz]

I've seen a few episodes of this (Japanese TV show in DVD format) and its a bit touch and go whether I want to see any more.

Quirk: I know Anime (and to an only slightly lesser extent Japanese culture) is all about the Eyes, but I apparently didn't know to what lengths animators would go in supporting this idea. The "shocked and confused" eyes of Kenshin were jarring to say the least. Its apparently an acquired taste.

Flaw: The "untouchable hero" premise... a thin veiling for "Christ Figure". I can see myself quickly hoping Kenshin gets smacked around.

Flaw: The humor in this show works occasionally, and misses often.

Strength: I like the animators' focus on emotional interplay between characters.

Flaw: The only main characters in this show that aren't stereotypes are those who will likely become stereotypes after they get more screen time.

Strength: The groundwork is being lain for an interesting plot and subplots.

Can anyone tell me if I should bother watching more?

[Anders Hallin]

I haven't seen Kenshin, but I do know it's incredibly long. Quite good though.

However, as this is a thread that mentions Anime, I am obligated to hype Revolutionary Girl Utena. Since I feel incredibly corny to write some things, I will just use Anime News Networks' reviewer's quote, which I agree with:
"Let it be said that it is this reviewer’s opinion that Revolutionary Girl Utena is perhaps the finest piece of animated art to ever come out of Japan. The show is indescribably deep, meaningful, well-crafted and thoughtful..."

I'll go so far as to say that it is likely one of the best works of moving pictures I have ever seen.

So go buy it, Brian. :)


I also like the X series from Clamp at the moment.

[Brad Grenz]

law: The "untouchable hero" premise... a thin veiling for "Christ Figure". I can see myself quickly hoping Kenshin gets smacked around.

Must not have seen much, cause Kenshin starts getting the shit kicked out of him on a regular basis pretty quickly. Surem he ends up winning, but he bleeds an awful lot along the way.

[Anders Hallin]

law: The "untouchable hero" premise... a thin veiling for "Christ Figure". I can see myself quickly hoping Kenshin gets smacked around.

Must not have seen much, cause Kenshin starts getting the shit kicked out of him on a regular basis pretty quickly. Surem he ends up winning, but he bleeds an awful lot along the way.
Sounds like a thin veiling for "Bruce Willis Figure".

[EviLore]

I've seen all of the Rurouni Kenshin TV series (1-95), the movie, both OVAs, and I've read all of the RK manga to boot. So consider this an informed opinion, if not one that may or may not actually hold validity to you personally (because I'm just some random internet dumbass sharing precious few words here anyhow).

RK TV series: The RK TV series depicts Himura Kenshin's later years, after he swears never to kill anyone again. Uses a reverse-bladed sword to crack some skulls instead. First season (1-26) is decent. Pretty archetypical cliche anime stuff. Fun romp especially for folks who haven't watched a whole lot of anime yet. The Kyoto arc of the series heats things up (27 to early 60's) with a darker tone and less of a focus on tired romance and an episodic nature: the kyoto arc is actually a story arc. Decent action and character developmet to be found here. After the kyoto arc, though, the TV series moves into "really fucking sucks" territory. This stuff (mid-60's to the end of the series) isn't derived from Watsuki's original manga, but apparently adapted from the psychotic ramblings of a panty-sniffing otaku. Avoid it at all costs. It's really, really bad. Watch as Kenshin faces "German guy on horse" in a heroic battle to end all battles. Not quite.

RK OVA (Tsuiokuhen; available on DVD as "samurai x: trust/betrayal"): This chronicles the early days od Himura Kenshin, explaining the original of his swordsmanship, the development of his murderous intent, and ultimately the cross-shaped scar on his cheek. It's very high production value, with extreme realistic gore. It's basically Kenshin during the Bakumatsu, fighting against the Tokugawa shogunate. It's also a historical fiction, eliminating the highly fantastical elements of the TV series (no jumping 30 feet in the air, or running faster than the naked eye, or shouting out names of sword techniques), including actual historical characters and such. Highly violent, highly dramatic, high recommended.

RK Movie: It sucks ass, don't bother.

RK OVA 2 (Seisouhen): It's not available in the states right now, as far as I know. It also sucks pretty badly. It's a 60 minute long OVA, with 45 minutes dedicated to summarizing 255 chapters of rurouni kenshin manga (from a very limited perspective, and not a good one), and 15 minutes or so dedicated to "closing" the series by depicting Kenshin's death (which is another frightful conjuration of some anal drip otaku, not derived from the original manga). Don't watch it unless you've read the manga all the way through, because it spoils a lot of story without actually pulling it off well.


Edit: btw, apologies for the broken sentence structure and ramblings and all that, but it's 9am and I haven't slept yet.

[Tyjenks]

I haven't seen Kenshin, but I do know it's incredibly long. Quite good though.

However, as this is a thread that mentions Anime, I am obligated to hype Revolutionary Girl Utena.

Damn Anders, do you get a cut for every VHS tape and DVD sold. I had never heard of that one and now I feel like I was involved in the production of the thing. :wink:

EviLore, thanks for the run down. Without internet dumbasses, how would we find out about all of these quirky anime titles. :)

Since all anime threads lead to mentions of other anime projects, I watched Armitage: Dual Matrix last night. Juliette Lewis!!!! Les Claypool doing music!!!! It wasn't too bad.

[Anders Hallin]

Damn Anders, do you get a cut for every VHS tape and DVD sold. I had never heard of that one and now I feel like I was involved in the production of the thing. :wink:
The show is Truth. We are nothing without the Truth. We are lost. Shells of our true selves without it. How can there be Life if there is not the Show?
Utena - now with 100% more brainwashing!
The problem is of course with trying to hype a show whose brilliance doesn't become readily apparent until quite a-ways into the series. I mean, it's good up until then, sure, but I guess it's not for everyone, while I think the ending is.

[Anders Hallin]

*cough*
http://ohtori.nu/gallery

[RichardC]

Flaw: The "untouchable hero" premise... a thin veiling for "Christ Figure". I can see myself quickly hoping Kenshin gets smacked around.

First series Kenshin is basically undefeatable. The second series is far darker and has enemies who can actually do damage rather than looking like rejects from the freakshow. He doesn't really work until you have the clash between his modern nice-guy persona and the killer he used to be - that adds a much tenser edge. On the other hand, wait until Shoujo* Amakusa

(* Replace the j for a g of course, but seriously, look at that outfit...)


After the kyoto arc, though, the TV series moves into "really fucking sucks" territory

I disagree. It moves into so bad it retroactively makes the rest suck territory. The Christian arc is bland but passable, but after that I just felt embarassed for them. Insane German knights investigating ancient temples ON HORSEBACK? CARRYING LANCES? Shiva H. Vishnu, it's bad. I've got the whole set of DVDs and if I ever have a fire, I'm throwing them in.


RK OVA 2 (Seisouhen)

Yeah, it is - it's down as (bleugh) Samurai X: Reflection. I know everyone hates it, but I really liked it. Dedicating more time to Jin'ai than Captain Combustion was mad, but hey. I've read enough of the manga for it not to be full of spoilers, although I haven't read the actual ending.

Trust and Betrayal are definitely must-sees.


The problem is of course with trying to hype a show whose brilliance doesn't become readily apparent until quite a-ways into the series.

It's quicker just to mention the words "Lesbian Luge Run" and watch everyone run to the shops.

[Anders Hallin]

It's quicker just to mention the words "Lesbian Luge Run" and watch everyone run to the shops.
I'm just waiting for someone to do a gag animation of that where their hair gets stuck in the wheels.

[Gav]

I just couldn't let this one pass...


Flaw: The "untouchable hero" premise... a thin veiling for "Christ Figure". I can see myself quickly hoping Kenshin gets smacked around.

Usually, the point of a Christ figure is that they get killed (figuratively sometimes) to absolve everyone else of their sins--an untouchable Christ figure would seem to miss the point.

Gav

[RichardC]

It's quicker just to mention the words "Lesbian Luge Run" and watch everyone run to the shops.
I'm just waiting for someone to do a gag animation of that where their hair gets stuck in the wheels.

I thought Anthy had quite short hair - how would it get tied up in the wheels she's sitting o...oh. Question withdrawn.

[Anders Hallin]

I thought Anthy had quite short hair - how would it get tied up in the wheels she's sitting o...oh. Question withdrawn.
I thought you were talking about the movie, where she has long hair most of the time. If you're not talking about the movie, then I have NO idea what lesbian luge ride you're talking about.

[Anders Hallin]

Oh, and she always has long hair, but due to quantum physics or something like that, her hairdo in most of the series makes it really short.

[Anders Hallin]

(edited away images)
http://ohtori.nu/gallery

[RichardC]

I thought you were talking about the movie, where she has long hair most of the time. If you're not talking about the movie, then I have NO idea what lesbian luge ride you're talking about.

It was just a tasteless joke ;-)

[Anders Hallin]

It was just a tasteless joke ;-)
I think the scary part is that I could actually connect it to something in the movie :)

[RichardC]

I think the scary part is that I could actually connect it to something in the movie

Nah, it's definitely the most iconic bit of it ;-) It's odd though - my copy has vanished without trace. I've still got Rose Collection, and keep meaning to pick up Black Rose and so on (in the hopes that I may eventually work out what in the HOLY name of HELL was going on in that film), but my DVD of the movie is missing, presumed lent to a friend.

[Anders Hallin]

Is your name Johanna? Because in that case I have it :D
The Black Rose arc has some great moments, but I think I appreciated it more the second time I watched it, after I had seen the entire series. It can feel like the story stalls a bit, but it works out well as the story then goes into overdrive in the The Beginning of the End dvd. I think the box-set version of The Black Rose Saga is available now, too.

[RichardC]

Er...yes! Return it immediately. The address is Richar...oh, damn, rumbled.

[Brian Koontz]

I just couldn't let this one pass...


Flaw: The "untouchable hero" premise... a thin veiling for "Christ Figure". I can see myself quickly hoping Kenshin gets smacked around.

Usually, the point of a Christ figure is that they get killed (figuratively sometimes) to absolve everyone else of their sins--an untouchable Christ figure would seem to miss the point.

Gav

*Ahem*...

Step #1: Christ walks the Earth with extreme arrogance.

Step #2: Christ is killed... to Christians its "killed".

Step #3: Christ "ascends to the heavens"... ala is resurrected and achieves immortality. Therefore we have excited anticipations of the "Second Coming".

Conclusion: Christ never dies.

The "died for our sins" thing is rather that Christ gave his blood for our sins... his BODY. Per Christianity, Christ's spirit (which can apparently retake bodily form per Second Coming) is eternal.

So in reality, Christ IS untouchable according to Christian mythology.

Any rendition of "invincibility" is a God reference.

Any rendition of "invincible but prone to injury/temporary death/death of the body only" is a Christ reference.

[RichardC]

Yeah, but it's the sword-fighting that makes it work!

[Squirrel Killer]

Step #1: Christ walks the Earth with extreme arrogance.
Step #2: Christ is killed... to Christians its "killed".
Step #3: Christ "ascends to the heavens"... ala is resurrected and achieves immortality. Therefore we have excited anticipations of the "Second Coming".
Conclusion: Christ never dies.

Well, actually:
Step #1: Christ walks Earth with extreme humility. (Even from the most cynical viewpoint, it's still a matter of "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up.")
Step #2: Christ suffers and is killed, for our sins.
Step #3: Christ ascends to heaven. As he is part of the Holy Trinity, he is by definition, immortal.


The "died for our sins" thing is rather that Christ gave his blood for our sins... his BODY. Per Christianity, Christ's spirit (which can apparently retake bodily form per Second Coming) is eternal.

So in reality, Christ IS untouchable according to Christian mythology.

Any rendition of "invincibility" is a God reference.

Any rendition of "invincible but prone to injury/temporary death/death of the body only" is a Christ reference.

Christian mythology is only tangently related to the literary useage of it's themes. The "Christ-figure" literary archetype is defined by the character's suffering and/or death, not by any resultant immortality or expected second coming. Look at the characters that are commonly acknowledged as christ figures.

Captain Ahab from Moby Dick
Simon from Lord of the Flies
Gandolf from Lord of the Rings (alt: Gandolf/Frodo/Aragorn as the Trinity)
Jim Casey from Grapes of Wrath
Carton from In A Tale of Two Cities
Aslan from the Narnia series
Maximus from Gladiator
Kenny from South Park

What do all of them have in common? They die. What's also common to all (except Gandolf & Kenny)? They don't stand a chance of being around for the sequal/next episode. Immortality/invulnerability is a trait of the Superman archetype, not the Christ-figure archetype, although there may be some overlap.

[Brian Koontz]

Well, actually:
Step #1: Christ walks Earth with extreme humility. (Even from the most cynical viewpoint, it's still a matter of "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up.")

Arrogance is the communication of strength. Christ was highly arrogant, unless all of those people "flocked" to him since he was so pathetic.

[quote=Squirrel Killer]Step #2: Christ suffers and is killed, for our sins.
Step #3: Christ ascends to heaven. As he is part of the Holy Trinity, he is by definition, immortal.

Right.


Christian mythology is only tangently related to the literary useage of it's themes. The "Christ-figure" literary archetype is defined by the character's suffering and/or death, not by any resultant immortality or expected second coming.

You're wrong.

[quote=Squirrel Killer]Look at the characters that are commonly acknowledged as christ figures.

Captain Ahab from Moby Dick
Simon from Lord of the Flies
Gandolf from Lord of the Rings (alt: Gandolf/Frodo/Aragorn as the Trinity)
Jim Casey from Grapes of Wrath
Carton from In A Tale of Two Cities
Aslan from the Narnia series
Maximus from Gladiator
Kenny from South Park

What do all of them have in common? They die. What's also common to all (except Gandolf & Kenny)? They don't stand a chance of being around for the sequal/next episode. Immortality/invulnerability is a trait of the Superman archetype, not the Christ-figure archetype, although there may be some overlap.

If your point is that Superman's body is invincible (barring Kryptonite) and Christ's is not, that's fine.

Christ's identity was never tied to his body. The point to Jesus's life was to become Christ... to become the representative of God on Earth and therefore to become immortal.

All Christ figures are likewise. They represent God and regardless of their bodily status they become immortal.

In fact, the destruction of the body is actually DESIRED by Christ figures. Not just because it imitates Christ, but because its the final proof of the body's subjugation to God. Martyrdom.

[Squirrel Killer]

Well, actually:
Step #1: Christ walks Earth with extreme humility. (Even from the most cynical viewpoint, it's still a matter of "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up.")

Arrogance is the communication of strength. Christ was highly arrogant, unless all of those people "flocked" to him since he was so pathetic.

Um...no. "Arrogance (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=arrogance)" is overbearing pride. Arrogance is contempt of others. Arrogance is Brian Koontz. Arrogance repells people, it doesn't draw them in.



Christian mythology is only tangently related to the literary useage of it's themes. The "Christ-figure" literary archetype is defined by the character's suffering and/or death, not by any resultant immortality or expected second coming.

You're wrong.

I'm rubber, you're glue. Everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you! Hey look, everyone, Koontz is wrong!



If your point is that Superman's body is invincible (barring Kryptonite) and Christ's is not, that's fine.

Christ's identity was never tied to his body. The point to Jesus's life was to become Christ... to become the representative of God on Earth and therefore to become immortal.

All Christ figures are likewise. They represent God and regardless of their bodily status they become immortal.

My point, since it seems to have overflown your head, is that the "christ-figure" literary archetype is defined by sacrifice, not by invulnerability or immortality. Simon dies in the Lord of the Flies. Dead. Gone. Floating with the fishes. Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not a mortician. Blooming passed on. He's not going to be in the sequal, except when one kid says "Hey, remember Simon?" and the other says, "Yeah, too bad we killed him" and we get a nice little flashback scene. Yet he is the textbook literary christ figure. Christ figures are only immortal in the sense that they'll be remembered.

What I'm saying is that this...


The "untouchable hero" premise... a thin veiling for "Christ Figure".

...is incorrect. It's incorrect because the "untouchable hero" premise is not a thin veiling of the "christ figure" archetype, it's blatently the "untouchable hero" archetype. The "christ figure" archetype is defined by sacrifice. Invincibilty (ie not having to sacrifice) diminishs whatever sacrifice is there.

Go ahead and turn in your term paper that says Superman is a great christ figure because he's so untouchable, I'm sure your teacher will give you a nice grade for effort since you turned in a 50-page disertation when the assignment only called for 5. But try that idiocy in public, and you will get called out.

[Anders Hallin]

Arrogance is the communication of strength. Christ was highly arrogant, unless all of those people "flocked" to him since he was so pathetic.
I'm going to use Master Yupa from Nausicaä as an example again. A character who is very humble, but through his actions become a strong symbol anyway.
Arrogance is not the same thing as being vocal, active or great. Arrogance is often a sad side-effect of those attributes.

[Brian Koontz]

Um...no. "Arrogance (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=arrogance)" is overbearing pride. Arrogance is contempt of others. Arrogance is Brian Koontz. Arrogance repells people, it doesn't draw them in.

Christ had both overbearing pride and contempt of others. That he was able to hide it is no proof of lacking it. Christ was POLITICAL. Those that are less political... less deceptive get the term "arrogant". I cut out the political bullshit and make arrogance the communication of strength.

The common use of arrogant does not repel people, but it makes them be repelled *publicly*. Privately it attracts them. People are hypocrits at heart.


My point, since it seems to have overflown your head, is that the "christ-figure" literary archetype is defined by sacrifice, not by invulnerability or immortality.

Its the sacrifice of the body IN ORDER to attain immortality. Grab a clue. Immortality of effect. Immortality of power.


Simon dies in the Lord of the Flies. Dead. Gone. Floating with the fishes. Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not a mortician. Blooming passed on. He's not going to be in the sequal, except when one kid says "Hey, remember Simon?" and the other says, "Yeah, too bad we killed him" and we get a nice little flashback scene. Yet he is the textbook literary christ figure. Christ figures are only immortal in the sense that they'll be remembered.

They need to be immortal in effect... that is to say for their "teachings" to live on past their corporeal death in order for them to be a Christ Figure. This can be done simply through memory... as long as that memory is tied to a continuation of effect upon the behavior of those remembering.


What I'm saying is that this...


The "untouchable hero" premise... a thin veiling for "Christ Figure".

...is incorrect. It's incorrect because the "untouchable hero" premise is not a thin veiling of the "christ figure" archetype, it's blatently the "untouchable hero" archetype. The "christ figure" archetype is defined by sacrifice. Invincibilty (ie not having to sacrifice) diminishs whatever sacrifice is there.

Given the sacrifice, the result is invincibility of effect.

Jesus was working off the example of Socrates, whose death was the most memorable part of his life. He died according to principle... his death served his immortality.

Socrates even in death is untouchable... that is the example Jesus followed.

[EviLore]

Okay, man, now you're just making shit up ;b

It's alright to not understand what arrogance means, really.

Dr Crypt: get in here stat!

[Squirrel Killer]

I think the more relevant definition in question is this (http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/T/troll.html):


1. v.,n. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase “trolling for newbies” which in turn comes from mainstream “trolling”, a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT.

Bravo Brian, bravo. IHBT. From now on, I get to be on the joke with you. Except that joke wasn't really all that funny to begin with. Oh well, at least your stat posts are hilarious, if only for the mental image I get of you hunched over your keyboard one-handed typing, alt-tabbing between Excel and IE like a fiend. Keep up the good work.

[MrsAkioOhtori]

Hello, my name is Giovanna and I run the SKU site that the images on this thread come from. These images are direct-linked and chewing up very large amounts of my site's bandwidth. You are free to use my images to show your friends who is who in the series, but please use your own webspace instead of making it difficult for me to keep up mine. I'm asking you to either remove the images entirely or upload them to your own server and link them from there.

Thank you.

PS. To the mod: I've joined this forum only to ask for the removal of my images, you're welcome to dispose of my account.

[Anders Hallin]

Hello, my name is Giovanna and I run the SKU site that the images on this thread come from. These images are direct-linked and chewing up very large amounts of my site's bandwidth. You are free to use my images to show your friends who is who in the series, but please use your own webspace instead of making it difficult for me to keep up mine. I'm asking you to either remove the images entirely or upload them to your own server and link them from there.

Thank you.

PS. To the mod: I've joined this forum only to ask for the removal of my images, you're welcome to dispose of my account.
Sorry about that, my bad.
Will refrain from doing it in the future.

[Anders Hallin]

I should really get a PayPal account for when I go on these sprees, really. I have the faint suspicion that I personally took up most of ohtori.nu's bandwidth the last few days.
That, and it would probably be a good idea to read the front page, where she writes about her server trouble :(
I feel horrible :(

[RichardC]

You're the shoujo ai Hitler, Anders.

[Anders Hallin]

The worst part is that there really was no point to it, since the chance of making someone look into it is small at best.

[Union Carbide]

For what it's worth, it made me pull the trigger (no, not THAT way) on putting the first two DVDs in my Netflix queue.

[Anders Hallin]

I've been vindicated. :)
Now comes the part where I'm convinced that no one could possibly like it.
It's rather silly, here and there. Just saying.

[RichardC]

Here's a mallet to smash Chu-Chu (or whatever that irritating familar was called) with.