New GTA4 Trailer

[Charles]

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/28633.html


Didn't see a thread, thought I'd start one.

Looks good, still worried about the framerate. Was that Seth Green I heard?

[McCrank]

Shitzu :) Best part of the trailer...

[CheesyPoof]

Too much cut scene in the trailer, not enough gameplay. Regardless I'm fanboi'ing out over it and can't wait! Woo!

[Coca Cola Zero]

The character animation is horrible (with the exception of good lipsync that is probably being done automatically by some middleware). Not that it matters that much in-game assuming this plays pretty much like the GTA3s, but it really hurts the trailer.

[ducker]

maybe it was the audio they selected to put with the trailer, but I wasn't overly drawn to this.

[Tom Ohle]

Wicked.

[Marcin]

maybe it was the audio they selected to put with the trailer, but I wasn't overly drawn to this.

Yes, there appears to be a gangsta vibe to it *AGAIN*, whereas I was hoping for .... well, anything different, really.

[gamadict]

Underwhelming unless you're really into GTA storylines. Which isn't to say it'll be a bad game, just that it's difficult to tell with every bit of gameplay either zoomed way in or about a half second long

[CheesyPoof]

I noticed that there's not release date on the trailer. Hrm.

The problem with the GTA trailers is that they focus too much on the story/mission part of the game. There's a lot more to the game than that, but I guess they feel the need to market it that way. When i see the trailer, I see much more than the story.

[UncleSmoothie]

Awesome. Glad that it seems Rockstar hasn't messed with the formula too much.

[ducker]

Yes, there appears to be a gangsta vibe to it *AGAIN*, whereas I was hoping for .... well, anything different, really.


exactly. The last GTA I picked up was Vice City. As much as I thought San Andreas' audio seemed cool, it really looked like the same as 3 and Vice City, but music from a different generation.

Well unless Rockstar plan on putting out only one game a decade, they need to do something different and fresh, not necessarily go even deeper in to the the gangster, hiphop, crowd. Does that kinda stuff often appeal to the gamer in their mid 20's or older? I'd think not. Maybe that's ok with them.

[Hugin]

And another GTA game fails to interest me.

[UncleSmoothie]

Does that kinda stuff often appeal to the gamer in their mid 20's or older? I'd think not. Maybe that's ok with them.

I think you would have a point if hip-hop was completely divorced from (edit: mainstream) American culture and if GTA San Andreas hadn't been a huge hit.

[Matthew Gallant]

Curious, Hugin, what would that take, exactly? For a GTA to interest you?

[DennyA]

Not to pimp, but since it looks like GameTrailers is getting hammered right now, I'll note that the trailer is also avaialble for download in full 720p HD at Xbox.com (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/g/grandtheftautoiv/).

I'm off today and just grabbed it from home at 300Kb/s, which is as fast as my connection goes.

[madkevin]

exactly. The last GTA I picked up was Vice City. As much as I thought San Andreas' audio seemed cool, it really looked like the same as 3 and Vice City, but music from a different generation.

San Andreas had wildly different gameplay from Vice City. RPG-lite stats for your characters, a massive gameworld with no loading except when you went into buildings, turf wars, in-game character customization, etc. Plus a plot line that starts at Menace II Society / Boyz In Da Hood and ends up with your character wearing a tuxedo and a jetpack, robbing Vegas casinos.

[UncleSmoothie]

It's interesting to me when people complain about GTA games being too "gangster". These are crime games. Crimes (of the sort depicted/satirized in Grand Theft Auto) tend to be committed by, well, gangsters.

If GTA wasn't a gangster game, what would it be? A game about embezzling? Insider trading? If you quibble about GTA's subject matter and characters, you should probably just play Mercenaries.

[Jon_Danger]

Why does next gen graphics = shiny people?

Anyways, I really liked the music and the story seems interesting, but the framerate and animation looked pretty choppy to me for some reason. Did anyone else notice that?

[Fussbett]

Another game about stealing cars in New York and all the rapping and beats that go along with that. YAWN. Wake me up when they put out a game without so many blacks in it for once.

[CheesyPoof]

The missions in GTA III were the best, but then R* made them too cinematic/scripted for their own good. The GTA III mission were so great because it put you in this world and you were given an objective to solve. You could figure out different plans of attack with whatever weapons or objects that were in the world at your disposal. Contrast that with the grand finale missions of Vice City and, ugh, San Andreas and there's a big difference.

[LesJarvis]

The character animation is horrible (with the exception of good lipsync that is probably being done automatically by some middleware). Not that it matters that much in-game assuming this plays pretty much like the GTA3s, but it really hurts the trailer.

Yeah, I noticed this too. It's especially jarring because most of the graphic elements have been significantly improved over the PS2 era games, but the animation is as awful as ever.

[McCrank]

I smell fear... I dunno why... But after the delay from the original release date, and lots of secrecy around how the actual gameplay will work, I'm suspicious. The graphics also seem to get closer and closer to last gen with every trailer I see. Rockstar needs to foot up some details already, as well as a new release date :) I remember when it was first announced, it was hailed as "things will be different", well, up to this point, things look about exactly like they always have (obnoxious stereotypical cutscene that leads into one of four types of missions).

-Chris

[Hugin]

Curious, Hugin, what would that take, exactly? For a GTA to interest you?

I'm not sure. There's something in the way Rockstar presents the games that just never speaks to me at all. To be honest the last GTA game I actually physically played was GTA 3.

I think for me the three main problems are: I'm not all that interested in the settings/environments aesthetically or thematically, I generally find the character designs actively ugly, which is a turnoff, and because of the way morality and conflict are modeled in the games (at least so far as I generally understand them), I find it hard to get invested in who wins or loses.

I think the games generally say something ugly and uninteresting about life. I felt it especially strongly with San Andreas, I think because I had personal experiences growing up that I'm not really interested in turning into video game play. I know that comes off as prissy and moralistic. I more just mean the hooks built into the games are not the hooks I respond to emotionally.

Now, I'm a sci-fi junkie. If they made a sci-fi GTA game (no, not fucking Crackdown), with a big interesting city, a lot to do, lots of politics and factions and whatnot, plus all the combat and racing around, I'd probably begin to be hooked. Especially if it looked good. And especially if they somehow presented my character as someone I liked and someone who was justified in their actions.

Take the Mass Effect Citadel stuff, toss in some next gen G-Police, some Shadowrun, some Blade Runner, some Total Recall, divorce the setting from the grubby contemporary world I can see on the evening news or on my commute home, make it look good...I could get into that. I know that gets people's eyes rolling, but I can't help it, setting makes a huge difference to me.

For the record, I really appreciated Rockstar doing Bully. I liked that idea much more than their regular GTA stuff. And I liked the look of LA Noire (I know Noire is other people really and the whole thing is in development hell/limbo).

[JPR]

What's wrong with Crackdown?

[Hugin]

Sigh. I found Crackdown to be stupid and shallow and arcadey. All that jumping around stuff and stacking up stacks of things and blowing the stacks up and kicking people over buildings felt like the most pointless, asinine play possible, and I didn't like the shooting.

[Matthew Gallant]

I think the games generally say something ugly and uninteresting about life.
Well, the part in San Andreas where CJ teams up with David Cross gives you a remote control hobby plane with a minigun on it to shoot up the vans of a rival hobby store owner does say something ugly about life, I guess.

Then there's the part where you befriend the Triad boss by beating him in a race and later find out he's actually blind. His boys, who try very hard to make him feel like he's not, tell you. And you go on a mission with him, and he thinks you haven't figured it out, and then he keeps running into walls.

Then James Woods tells you to steal a jetpack from a military base by strapping it on and flying it out of there.

[Zylon]

Now, I'm a sci-fi junkie. If they made a sci-fi GTA game (no, not fucking Crackdown), with a big interesting city, a lot to do, lots of politics and factions and whatnot, plus all the combat and racing around, I'd probably begin to be hooked. You probably would have liked Black Ice\White Noise (http://jagcube.atari.org/biwn.html). Too bad it never got past alpha.

[UncleSmoothie]

And don't forget about the hamburgers. They cure your bullet wounds.

[Bahimiron]

San Andreas had wildly different gameplay from Vice City. RPG-lite stats for your characters, a massive gameworld with no loading except when you went into buildings, turf wars, in-game character customization, etc.

...not to mention that they fixed that shitty, shitty, shitty control system.

Seriously, Rockstar. The right stick being used for camera control has been pretty standard since PS1 dual shock games. What the hell were you thinking? Twice!

[Marcin]

It's interesting to me when people complain about GTA games being too "gangster". These are crime games. Crimes (of the sort depicted/satirized in Grand Theft Auto) tend to be committed by, well, gangsters.

There's "gangster" and there's "gangsta".

I'm sure I'll pick it up, love it, and maybe even complete a large part of the so-called storyline, but I'd really rather it opened up more, say, Ronin, Jackal or Bourne Conspiracy (for example) and less "wassup dawg".

[Desslock]

I like the trailer a lot - wish there was more gameplay, but I like the Eastern European theme this time around. Preordered the game.

[Andrew Mayer]

I'm sure I'll rent it and play it until I'm bored of it, which will inevitably be long before the cool stuff that everyone else is talking about...

I'm hoping the world isn't too big. That's what killed San Andreas for me.

[UncleSmoothie]

I'm hoping the world isn't too big. That's what killed San Andreas for me.

Concur. I liked the ambition behind it, but it just took too long to get around once the initial exploration glow wore off.

[rjcc]

There's "gangster" and there's "gangsta".

I'm sure I'll pick it up, love it, and maybe even complete a large part of the so-called storyline, but I'd really rather it opened up more, say, Ronin, Jackal or Bourne Conspiracy (for example) and less "wassup dawg".

lol, because Ronin's car-chase centric storyline is more mature than any storyline involving "gangstas".

[Mordrak]

Concur. I liked the ambition behind it, but it just took too long to get around once the initial exploration glow wore off.

Heretic.

I really liked the size because I spent a lot of time just cruising around in addition to the storyline. However, the extra cities didn't feel quite as well fleshed out as San Andreas.

As for the trailer, it's not bad. Here's hoping it makes it to the PC. I think San Andreas was Rockstar's last PC port.

[Schazzwozzer]

I know we've had shots and trailers for, like, months now, but I'm still disappointed that they didn't do something more interesting with the graphics. Like, remember the illustrations for GTA3 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/grand-theft-auto-iii/cover-art/gameCoverId,12892/) (box art is the best example I can find off-hand)? I thought that sort of gritty comic style was really strong, and I wish they'd have used the NEXT GEN POWAH to try to bring that to life — something similar to Team Fortress 2 perhaps. Unfortunately, with each successive title, it seems they're moving farther away from that, and more towards standard photo-realism.

Still definitely looking forward to it though.

[UncleSmoothie]

I really liked the size because I spent a lot of time just cruising around in addition to the storyline.

I did, too, and I totally see where you're coming from. For me personally, a lot of the late-game stuff started to feel more like commuting than gaming because of the daunting distances involved.

[Andrew Mayer]

I felt like I was spending forever dicking around in the woods getting yelled at by a crazy chick.

[Fussbett]

lol, because Ronin's car-chase centric storyline is more mature than any storyline involving "gangstas".
Cars are way better than blacks. Secondly, who doesn't want a game inspired by The Jackal? No one, that's who.

[Kadath]

I don't even know what that means. Well I think I do but I hope I don't.

Anywhooo... Compared to the kickass music in the teaser this one sounded WAY lamer. And there is way too much 'uncanny valleyism' in the characters. I note that they blink about once ever 30 seconds. I've seen ventriloquist dummies that looked less wooden. But meh, it's probably still 8 months from release so whatever, hopefully they get it right.

[Menzo]

Cars are way better than blacks. Secondly, who doesn't want a game inspired by The Jackal? No one, that's who.

This is the second time you've mentioned that the latest GTA games have a lot of black people in them (and about how you really don't like that). Am I just being touchy or does this seem a little racist to anyone else?

[DennyA]

Sigh. I found Crackdown to be stupid and shallow and arcadey. All that jumping around stuff and stacking up stacks of things and blowing the stacks up and kicking people over buildings felt like the most pointless, asinine play possible, and I didn't like the shooting.
Ah, you hate fun.

Damn. What games do you like?

[Ryan A]

Cars are way better than blacks. Secondly, who doesn't want a game inspired by The Jackal? No one, that's who.

I don't really care if you're actually a stupid racist or are just trying too hard to mock the people in this thread who complained about the gangster storylines in these games... either way it's you spouting racist-sounding garbage that makes the rest of the board hope you get banned.

[Coca Cola Zero]

I know we've had shots and trailers for, like, months now, but I'm still disappointed that they didn't do something more interesting with the graphics. Like, remember the illustrations for GTA3 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/grand-theft-auto-iii/cover-art/gameCoverId,12892/) (box art is the best example I can find off-hand)?

There was a link to the GTA4 box art on Kotaku recently and it still uses the same style. I'm sure that if they ever entertained ideas of going that route in-game, the vocal (and completely asinine) negative reaction to Wind Waker's visuals has probably scared them off forever.

[madkevin]

This is the second time you've mentioned that the latest GTA games have a lot of black people in them (and about how you really don't like that). Am I just being touchy or does this seem a little racist to anyone else?

He's from Caltrops, so he's indulging in some of that Oscar Wilde-like wit that site is so famous for.

[Hugin]

Ah, you hate fun.

Damn. What games do you like?

New this year-ish? Bioshock, Mass Effect, Orange Box (yes, even Portal), Puzzle Quest, LotRO, probably a few others I'm forgetting.

[Sam Jones]

Then James Woods tells you to steal a jetpack from a military base by strapping it on and flying it out of there.

That was Peter Fonda. James Woods tells you to steal the Sea Harrier.

[Rob_Merritt]

Well, the part in San Andreas where CJ teams up with David Cross gives you a remote control hobby plane with a minigun on it to shoot up the vans of a rival hobby store owner does say something ugly about life, I guess.

Then there's the part where you befriend the Triad boss by beating him in a race and later find out he's actually blind. His boys, who try very hard to make him feel like he's not, tell you. And you go on a mission with him, and he thinks you haven't figured it out, and then he keeps running into walls.

Then James Woods tells you to steal a jetpack from a military base by strapping it on and flying it out of there.


See, it was when I got the hobby shop that I started loving the game.

[Mordrak]

I felt like I was spending forever dicking around in the woods getting yelled at by a crazy chick.
I could see how that could get annoying. It just made me empathize with my character. Heh.


Anywhooo... Compared to the kickass music in the teaser this one sounded WAY lamer. And there is way too much 'uncanny valleyism' in the characters. I note that they blink about once ever 30 seconds. I've seen ventriloquist dummies that looked less wooden. But meh, it's probably still 8 months from release so whatever, hopefully they get it right.

The facial stuff doesn't look nearly as good as it could. It looks like they are recycling the same animation techniques from the previous games, which works well enough. I think the dissonance comes from the extra detail with the stiff limb wavy or exaggerated movements.

[Bahimiron]

See, it was when I got the hobby shop that I started loving the game.

That's when I stopped playing it.

GTA games always feel very open and free and then you get to that one mission you can't beat and that's pretty much it. Maybe I just suck at games (it could very well be true) but in the past two GTA games I've gotten to a mission where I just couldn't beat the damn thing and eventually said fuckit.

[Kael]

I noticed a significant drop in the quality of the character models and animation in this latest trailor as well. Check out the following link and notice how much better the proportions or the characters, skin texture and animation is in the trailor 1 and trailor 2:

http://www.rockstargames.com/IV/trailer_splash.html

I dont know if thats because trailor 1 and 2 are pure cgi cutscene and and 3 is ingame engine and gameplay footage, or because rockstar had to cut some quality because of resource requirements, or if they are from different platforms (or if Im just imagining the difference).

[Coca Cola Zero]

The animation and models look about the same to me across all three trailers and they all look like they are in-engine and not pre-rendered, but the lighting quality and texture resolutions seem to have dropped significantly between trailer 1 & 2.

[Coca Cola Zero]

To be fair to Rockstar, we've been kind of spoiled by games with small environments like Gears of War and there is no way to get that kind of visual detail within a game like GTA4. The game looks good enough and I'm guaranteed to buy it, but despite being well aware of the sacrifices they have to make for such an open ended engine, there is something about the character models and animation that give them what I think of as a "PS2 look".

[CheesyPoof]

See, it was when I got the hobby shop that I started loving the game.
The hobby shop was totally optional.

[Shadarr]

The thing I don't like about GTA games, and it's been getting worse, is the feeling that you've got this huge go-anywhere-do-anything world and then you do a mission and it's about as open as a Super Mario level. The missions just don't feel integrated into the game world, don't make sense (collect flags for me and I'll, like, give you my business or something), and are often really annoying and have to be done multiple times.

All the other stuff like driving a cab or semi truck or pimping ho's is fun, but Rockstar seems to put more and more emphasis on the story missions and less on the open-endedness. Which is the exact opposite of what I want them to do.

It would also be nice if they could come up with an idea other than being a gangster. Changing the city or the race of the protagonist really isn't enough. Ultimately, I want a game that's open enough that I get to decide whether I'm going to be an amoral asshole or not. A game where you can choose to beat people to death with a bat is a lot more interesting to me than one where you have to.

[ElGuapo]

Hmmm.

I'm not sure what I was expecting, exactly. I guess the initial teaser made it look so good an realistic . . .

I honestly think Saint's Row looks like it has better graphics than this. This looks like San Andreas from top to bottom, with better textures.

[LesJarvis]

You're on crack.

[Machfive]

The graphics look great, I don't know what some of you guys are on. I couldn't tell a difference between the quality between trailers 2 and 3 in HD, but trailer 1 I think has a "cherry-picked" feel about it; it's not a drop in quality, it's that they picked the absolute most favorable shots for that initial trailer.

[Shadarr]

I think ElGuapo is forgetting just how bad SA looked. This looks way better, although I'm still not blown away. The crappy Statue of Liberty is a strange thing to open with.

[ElGuapo]

I think ElGuapo is forgetting just how bad SA looked. This looks way better, although I'm still not blown away. The crappy Statue of Liberty is a strange thing to open with.

You mean San Andreas? You're right, that was crappy looking. This looks the exactly same in animation, voice acting (which is a good thing), storyline, mission structure, etc. Just better textures.

I was saying Saint's Row looks better. Hard to tell without playing it I guess.

I'll still buy it, because I think it will be awesome and immersive. I guess I was just expecting some revolutionary change instead of just the same game with slightly better graphics.

I blame the Phillip Glass soundtrack trailer.

[Kevin Grey]

To be fair to Rockstar, we've been kind of spoiled by games with small environments like Gears of War and there is no way to get that kind of visual detail within a game like GTA4. The game looks good enough and I'm guaranteed to buy it, but despite being well aware of the sacrifices they have to make for such an open ended engine, there is something about the character models and animation that give them what I think of as a "PS2 look".

I would put Assassins Creed up there with the best graphics I've ever seen and it's has huge environments.

[UncleSmoothie]

This is the second time you've mentioned that the latest GTA games have a lot of black people in them (and about how you really don't like that). Am I just being touchy or does this seem a little racist to anyone else?

I don't want you to think that I'm condoning his hateful (or hatefully juvenile) attitude by not responding, I'm just trying to avoid feeding the troll.

[jeff3f]

Yeah, at the risk of coming across as a sociopath, I think the game would benefit more from more non-mission content or goals. The burger joint people should REMEMBER that you didn't behave the last time you were in. You should have the option to do bad things while cabbing or delivering pizzas. I'm not sure if it would be helpful if the cops noticed if you ran lights or drove too fast (I don't remember--I didn't spend much time with San Andreas--I played on PC and by the time it finally came out for that platform I wasn't as enthusiastic as I was for the previous games).

The first GTA was the genius game, and they captured it pretty well with the opening logo animation (the humming DMA guy that gets run hit and then run over). Where are the hari krishnas these days?

[Mordrak]

I think ElGuapo is forgetting just how bad SA looked. This looks way better, although I'm still not blown away. The crappy Statue of Liberty is a strange thing to open with.
It opens with the statue for two reasons. One, because the first few shots of this trailer are a recap of the thematic elements of the first trailer. Second, the angle of the opening shot shows off the draw distance/sky line.


I'll still buy it, because I think it will be awesome and immersive. I guess I was just expecting some revolutionary change instead of just the same game with slightly better graphics.


If you think of the trailers as a collection, each emphasizing different aspects of the game, this trailer makes sense. The first trailer emphasized the literal landscape as well as the story framework. The second trailer emphasized the personal story (while showing off individual ai/animations). The third trailer is a reminder that the game will still fit the precedents of the previous GTAs while emphasizing more of the gameplay, kind of how it all fits together.

[JD]

I know we've had shots and trailers for, like, months now, but I'm still disappointed that they didn't do something more interesting with the graphics. Like, remember the illustrations for GTA3 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/grand-theft-auto-iii/cover-art/gameCoverId,12892/) (box art is the best example I can find off-hand)? I thought that sort of gritty comic style was really strong, and I wish they'd have used the NEXT GEN POWAH to try to bring that to life — something similar to Team Fortress 2 perhaps.
I personally think that GTA IV has a really nice art direction. It might not be as cartoony as TF2 in terms of character design, but it still has a very distinctive look. The textures and the lighting remind me more of comics than things than games like Crysis, which try to be ultra-realistic.

-Julian

[Charles]

I would put Assassins Creed up there with the best graphics I've ever seen and it's has huge environments.

Yeah, but to be fair, it was built from the ground up to be able to do that.

The GTA series also has traditionally had far more moving objects, including vehicles. That stuff eats up CPU, and hell, all the vehicles probably take a ton of polies.

[Papageno]

I bet Rockstar's having problems with a) having to fit everything on one dual-layer DVD and b) gimping the game to accommodate the 17 people out there who have 360s with no hard drive.

I really want to see more of the physics-based character animations--the walking looking different if it's uphill vs. downhill or level, for instance. I'm disappointed not to see more of that here. This was pretty much all cutscenes, bah. I do love me some GTA though.

[jabroni]

I'm not sure if it would be helpful if the cops noticed if you ran lights or drove too fast
No, it wouldn't. Mafia did this, and it was neat for about two missions.

[DoomMunky]

The music in this new trailer is dope as fuck.

[Xemu]

I agree. Russian rap FTW!

[mkozlows]

Well unless Rockstar plan on putting out only one game a decade, they need to do something different and fresh, not necessarily go even deeper in to the the gangster, hiphop, crowd. Does that kinda stuff often appeal to the gamer in their mid 20's or older? I'd think not. Maybe that's ok with them.

How old are you? People in their thirties grew up listening to Dr. Dre. Rap isn't some crazy music that only the kids listen to it, it's pretty damn mainstream.

[Wheelkick]

Yeah, but to be fair, it was built from the ground up to be able to do that.

The GTA series also has traditionally had far more moving objects, including vehicles. That stuff eats up CPU, and hell, all the vehicles probably take a ton of polies.

The problem for me is that I have played AC and spent time surrounded by the beautiful cities in that game. It will be hard for me to ignore my memories of those visuals even if Damascus didn't have vehicles.

My problem with the GTAs is the fact that it always ends up with weird james bond scenarios (jetpack, remot controled flying stuff etc.). I see this trailer and really dig the eastern european angle, but I fully expect that the mid to end game will be all about flying spaceships and remote controlling robot clown bombs.

[mkozlows]

My problem with the GTAs is the fact that it always ends up with weird james bond scenarios (jetpack, remot controled flying stuff etc.). I see this trailer and really dig the eastern european angle, but I fully expect that the mid to end game will be all about flying spaceships and remote controlling robot clown bombs.

My problem with GTA is that it doesn't begin with weird James Bond scenarios. That all sounds way more fun than petty thuggery.

[Matt Perkins]

I'm with Shadarr on the GTA series. SA really turned me off for the most part and I got bored of playing it awfully quickly. In GTA3 and Vice City (my favorite of all of the GTA3 games), I had a lot of choices, a very open world...and the missions I did when I bored with doing other things. It's not so with SA. I need to do the missions to do the other things and most of the ones I did were pretty weak/boring missions.

The graphics in GTA4 look great to me, but all of this talk of story and lack of gameplay talk aren't bringing me any excitement. I want an open world that I can rule through my actions, one way or another, not a bunch of scripted missions that are more and more required and boring.

Crackdown style instead of SA style. Though I think maybe Crackdown was a bit too lacking in "quests". Some happy medium maybe...

[Charles]

The problem for me is that I have played AC and spent time surrounded by the beautiful cities in that game. It will be hard for me to ignore my memories of those visuals even if Damascus didn't have vehicles.

My problem with the GTAs is the fact that it always ends up with weird james bond scenarios (jetpack, remot controled flying stuff etc.). I see this trailer and really dig the eastern european angle, but I fully expect that the mid to end game will be all about flying spaceships and remote controlling robot clown bombs.

Yeah, I feel the same way about the GTA series. I loved GTA3 to pieces... the ambience, music, and continuous world just hit a great note with me, until I started doing missions, then the game was borderline broken. So I spent a week fucking around in the city until I got tired of starting cop chases, and jumping cars off of buildings.

The setting of the other two GTAs did absolutely nothing for me. In fact, it actively made me avoid them. This new one looks like they've added detail to the world, and a fairly interesting theme this time around. If they pull it off, I'll be happy, but honestly, I won't be surprised if this game falls flat too.

[Kael]

The problem for me is that I have played AC and spent time surrounded by the beautiful cities in that game. It will be hard for me to ignore my memories of those visuals even if Damascus didn't have vehicles.

My problem with the GTAs is the fact that it always ends up with weird james bond scenarios (jetpack, remot controled flying stuff etc.). I see this trailer and really dig the eastern european angle, but I fully expect that the mid to end game will be all about flying spaceships and remote controlling robot clown bombs.

Rockstar went out of there way to say that they won't be including the crazier stuff int his game. They are trying to make it more gritt and realistic than previous incarnations. They specifically stated that there won't be a jetpack and that Nikko would never ride a bike.

Its an interesting direction for the series, and many people are concerned that the game will lose some of its fun factor. But it seems right in line with what you are looking for (and personally I think its a good move).

[Jazar]

I would put Assassins Creed up there with the best graphics I've ever seen and it's has huge environments.

It does look amazing but it also has level loading.

Personally I think it's interesting that there are so many facets of the GTA3/LC/SA games that certain parts appeal to different people. Some love the huge open worlds; some love the specific environments/era settings; some love the great voice acting, narrative & soundtrack; some enjoy the serious mission structures that feel cohesive with the world; and some enjoy the silly jet pack missions and sidequests.

Personally I've always been a huge fan of the series and have enjoyed all of them to the best that I can (I have never gotten all hidden packages or jumps in any game though) and I am glad that the series is sucessful enough for Rockstar to continue the series with high quality & care. Screw the haters.

[Kevin Grey]

It does look amazing but it also has level loading.


I don't have a problem with level loading if the environment that it loads is large enough that the loads aren't constant. Once I was in a city in AC I generally wouldn't leave it for hours. Loading after dying is probably a higher concern and IIRC, the GTAs had that quite a bit. They also had some really long mission loads but that might just be GTA3 I'm remembering- can't recall if it was fixed for San Andreas.

[Rob_Merritt]

Rockstar went out of there way to say that they won't be including the crazier stuff int his game. They are trying to make it more gritt and realistic than previous incarnations. They specifically stated that there won't be a jetpack and that Nikko would never ride a bike.



What? Well my interest in this game went down a few pegs.

[Rob_Merritt]

I don't have a problem with level loading if the environment that it loads is large enough that the loads aren't constant. Once I was in a city in AC I generally wouldn't leave it for hours. Loading after dying is probably a higher concern and IIRC, the GTAs had that quite a bit. They also had some really long mission loads but that might just be GTA3 I'm remembering- can't recall if it was fixed for San Andreas.

I never noticed long loads on the pc for any of the GTAs.

[Kevin Grey]

I never noticed long loads on the pc for any of the GTAs.

Considering they were built with PS2 hardware in mind, that doesn't surprise me.

[Wheelkick]

What? Well my interest in this game went down a few pegs.
...and mine went up. But I saw both bikes and choppers in the trailer so they might try to hit a middle road, maybe?

[Charles]

It does look amazing but it also has level loading.


The level loading wasn't a hardware technical limitation, it was a software implementation limitation, and could've been avoided, had the issues we encountered presented themselves earlier in the project.

[ElGuapo]

Wait, more gritty and realistic? Yeah, that's just what we need, a more realistically violent GTA game. Now you can't shoot hooker from the sky in you jet pack, you have to go right up to to them and hear their screams while knifing them in an alley.

Wonderful. This will get some great press.

GTA! Now more realistic violence than ever!

In other news, I read that Saint's Row 2 will have usable motorcycles, boats, helicopters, and planes. Also coming out in 2008. Not that it will be a competition, but interesting they are doing the helicopter and plane stuff and GTA IV isn't.

The thing that made the GTA series stand apart for me was the little interactive touches; playing pool, the videoarcades, dancing, robbing stores, strip clubs, etc. I hope they take those things and expand upon them, making the world even more immersive.

Incidentally, carefully worded press coverage has made me think that the helicopters in GTA IV won't be flyable, but only allow you to grab onto them ala Spiderman 2. Can anyone confirm flyable helicopters, or is this truly GTAIII next gen, leaving behind all the innovations of Vice City and San Andreas?

[Jazar]

The level loading wasn't a hardware technical limitation, it was a software implementation limitation, and could've been avoided, had the issues we encountered presented themselves earlier in the project.

Then I very much look forward to AC2.

In other news, I read that Saint's Row 2 will have usable motorcycles, boats, helicopters, and planes. Also coming out in 2008. Not that it will be a competition, but interesting they are doing the helicopter and plane stuff and GTA IV isn't.


GTA4 does allow you to fly helicoptors, just not planes IIRC.

[ElGuapo]

Would you guys rather eliminate a small loading pause for graphics/level complexity/size? I'll take a small loading pause/screen/message any day of the week if it means the cities/levels/countrysides are bigger, more complex, more open, more interesting.

[ElGuapo]

GTA4 does allow you to fly helicoptors, just not planes IIRC.

The press I've heard is that helicopters will be flyable "onto any rooftop". Now, is that just a poorly written blurb, or does that mean you can't fly them freeform just rather they are a "fast travel" option to the roofs of buildings? Or maybe they are on rails?

I hope they don't limit the player's freedom to fly where they want, that would be annoying and immersion breaking.

[krokodile]

Why does next gen graphics = shiny people?

Anyways, I really liked the music and the story seems interesting, but the framerate and animation looked pretty choppy to me for some reason. Did anyone else notice that?

Noticed that too, especially on the black people.

Its like they are radiating. Makes it look wierd.

Also: I don't think arms bend the way they show them in the video, but I cold be wrong.

[Jazar]

Would you guys rather eliminate a small loading pause for graphics/level complexity/size? I'll take a small loading pause/screen/message any day of the week if it means the cities/levels/countrysides are bigger, more complex, more open, more interesting.

I've always been a huge fan of seamless loading. San Andreas proved that you can have a huge & detailed world without any pause. My love affair with seamless loading started with Ultima 6 and never went away.

[McCrank]

So, whats the speculation on the release date these days? Rockstar sticking the normal early October release date?

-Chris

[Marcin]

The press I've heard is that helicopters will be flyable "onto any rooftop". Now, is that just a poorly written blurb, or does that mean you can't fly them freeform just rather they are a "fast travel" option to the roofs of buildings? Or maybe they are on rails?

I hope they don't limit the player's freedom to fly where they want, that would be annoying and immersion breaking.

Hm, that might refer to the first GTA3, where not all roofs were solid (since there wasn't any air travel unless you were a Dodo Master). I guess that indicates VC and SA era freedom, where you could land on any rooftop since they were physicall *there*.

Just a guess.

[CastOutDevil]

GTA Bladerunner and you have a winner.

[BDGE]

San Andreas had a jetpack?? Damn I need to play that game!

[CheesyPoof]

Would you guys rather eliminate a small loading pause for graphics/level complexity/size? I'll take a small loading pause/screen/message any day of the week if it means the cities/levels/countrysides are bigger, more complex, more open, more interesting.
I'd rather have seamless loading. The added complexity, IMO, would be minimal, but I hate being in a chase and driving across that damn bridge and have the game pause for a few seconds. The worst was if you were in the process of crashing you'de totally lose it when it came back.

San Andreas had a jetpack?? Damn I need to play that game!
And a harrier jet, and trucking missions, and you could drive a freight train, and fly a Boeing 737, and much, much, more!

[Marcin]

And a harrier jet, and trucking missions, and you could drive a freight train, and fly a Boeing 737, and much, much, more!

Damn. Now I have to play it again. Anyone try GTA:SA vs. GTA:Trilogy on their 360 and have a comparative stability report?

[ElGuapo]

I'd rather have seamless loading. The added complexity, IMO, would be minimal, but I hate being in a chase and driving across that damn bridge and have the game pause for a few seconds. The worst was if you were in the process of crashing you'de totally lose it when it came back.

Well, I can totally understand that, but what about going in buildings ala Oblivion and other games?

I guess what's I'm saying is that when there are no load times that to me means the world is either loaded into memory or streams into memory, or the world is created/destroyed in memory on the fly. In order to do this you have to decrease things that take up memory, like lighting effects, physics, particle effects like dust, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is, I'd take the graphics and physics engine of COD4 or HL2 and take some loading times over a loadless GTA world anyday.

Was Saint's Row loadless? I don't recall any loading screens on that one. You did break up the action with cut scenes sometimes (like when you do the territory takeovers), but that to me was more a cut scene, not a loading screen.

[Jazar]

Damn. Now I have to play it again. Anyone try GTA:SA vs. GTA:Trilogy on their 360 and have a comparative stability report?

Worked fine when I played it. The controls are better on the 360 in fact with the black and white buttons mapped to the bumpers.

[XPav]

I didn't like GTA3, mainly because I played it on my PC, and the controls were ass. I skipped Vice City (XBox Originals, hint hint!), and really, really liked San Andreas, goofy shit and all.

This thread is a good representation of GTA as a whole, because people can hate elements of the series completely different from what other people hate. Some people "hate" the gangsta shit, some people "hate" the silly shit, and the fact that it's all in one game is amazing.

[ElGuapo]

I loved walking down the strip in San Andreas and taking in all the sights. That was my favorite part of the third one. That and exploring the desert on a dirt bike.

Hell, I might have to play this over the weekend now.

[BDGE]

Yea, I have plans to visit the game this weekend(I never did play it originally). I re-read a few reviews and there is apparently some mega-Ocean's 11 inspired casino heist that is lauded and praised? WHUT?

[ElGuapo]

Yep, that's a good mission. It's a series of missions leading up to that mission, actually.

I think there was one in Vice City too, but I could never beat the dude you had to race. I hate super hard races in the GTA series.

[Rob_Merritt]

This thread is making me want to reinsatall GTA SA now...

[Marcin]

Some people "hate" the gangsta shit

Yeah, I have to revise my original take on the trailer. I forgot that it's not exactly GTA's fault that everyone (2 True Crimes + Saints Row) went that direction AFTER GTA did it in SA.

I also conveniently forgot that the "story" in SA completely jumps the rails after you get out of the first city. So yeah, I'm up for whatever Rockstar has planned for IV.

[ElGuapo]

Yeah, there is lots of gangsta stuff in the beginning and end of San Andreas, but the middle has lots of other offshoots. Owning your own airport, robbing military train convoys, invading hydroelectric dams and doing a complicated casino robberies aren't exactly gangsta motifs.

Can we name all the little interactive touches/minigames in San Andreas? I don't mean things like the trucking missions and racing, I mean just thinks you can walk up and interact with. That's what really set it apart, for me. I can name:

1. The horse racing gambling
2. The casino gambling: blackjack, video poker, slots, was there another one?
3. The basketballs on the courts
4. The stand up video arcades and the one in your starting house
5. The dancing minigame in the clubs
6. The strip club "back room", and also tipping in the front room
7. The vending machines
8. The food places/restaurants
9. The barber and clothing stores
10. The gyms, both lifting weights/bicycles, and also sparring

[BDGE]

I also didn't realize that Axl Rose portrays one of the radio station DJ's on the radio. I'm also starting to realize that maybe I should have played GTA:SA instead of Halo 2 back in late 2004.

[madkevin]

I also didn't realize that Axl Rose portrays one of the radio station DJ's on the radio.

And Chuck D. from Public Enemy, and Sly & Robbie from, er, Sly & Robbie.

[Jasper]

Now, I'm a sci-fi junkie. If they made a sci-fi GTA game (no, not fucking Crackdown), with a big interesting city, a lot to do, lots of politics and factions and whatnot, plus all the combat and racing around, I'd probably begin to be hooked. Especially if it looked good. And especially if they somehow presented my character as someone I liked and someone who was justified in their actions.

Take the Mass Effect Citadel stuff, toss in some next gen G-Police, some Shadowrun, some Blade Runner, some Total Recall, divorce the setting from the grubby contemporary world I can see on the evening news or on my commute home, make it look good...I could get into that. I know that gets people's eyes rolling, but I can't help it, setting makes a huge difference to me.

For the record, I really appreciated Rockstar doing Bully. I liked that idea much more than their regular GTA stuff. And I liked the look of LA Noire (I know Noire is other people really and the whole thing is in development hell/limbo).
Hell yah!

It'd be sweet if they'd branch out more along the lines of Bully (or LA Noir), and a nice sci-fi GTA would be simply awesome. Blade Runner would be cool, maybe Firefly, some sort of Gibson-esque cyberpunk, or even Star Wars/KotoR smugglers. I found the gansta-ness of GTA immersive, and loved the music/voice-work, but am simply tired of the setting.

My personal dream would be GTA + Crimson Skies, but that's probably just me. :-(

[Jasper]

And Chuck D. from Public Enemy, and Sly & Robbie from, er, Sly & Robbie.
They really nailed the whole radio station shtick.

[Papageno]

To whoever skipped Vice City: Aaargh, Vice City was awesomeness! The 80's songs on the radio were worth the price of admission alone. And I loved the Cuban/Caribbean radio station. I was really bummed that San Andreas didn't have even one Mexican/Latino radio station (seemed like a glaring oversight given the setting).

And yeah, the jetpack was fandamntastic.

[Zep--]

I'd rather have seamless loading. The added complexity, IMO, would be minimal, but I hate being in a chase and driving across that damn bridge and have the game pause for a few seconds. The worst was if you were in the process of crashing you'de totally lose it when it came back.


And a harrier jet, and trucking missions, and you could drive a freight train, and fly a Boeing 737, and much, much, more!

I knew about the jet and the trucks...but How do you "Drive a Freight Train"? Can you drive it off the tracks?

Zep--

[Marcin]

I knew about the jet and the trucks...but How do you "Drive a Freight Train"? Can you drive it off the tracks?

Zep--

Oh yes. And bust through blockades in the first city so your out-of-control crazy trains is being shot at by jets and chased by cops.

Mind you, it's really only fun the one time :P

[Zep--]

Oh yes. And bust through blockades in the first city so your out-of-control crazy trains is being shot at by jets and chased by cops.

Mind you, it's really only fun the one time :P

The Hell?...I can't believe I never heard of that..this is in SA?

[Marcin]

The Hell?...I can't believe I never heard of that..this is in SA?

Yep. The train station is ... near where the lowrider car racers hang out, IIRC. You get an option to enter the train or hijack.

And I can't believe I remember that just offhand. What a great example of world-building skills, what a great game (which I am buying today for the THIRD time, heh).

[jerri blank]

Sigh. I found Crackdown to be stupid and shallow and arcadey. All that jumping around stuff and stacking up stacks of things and blowing the stacks up and kicking people over buildings felt like the most pointless, asinine play possible, and I didn't like the shooting.

Jesus. Do you like video games AT ALL? Maybe something like Barbie's Sewing Circle and Book Club Adventure would be more your speed.



jb

[Shadarr]

My personal dream would be GTA + Crimson Skies, but that's probably just me. :-(
My dream game is a GTA-esque Shadowrun. Basically like the Genesis game in the sense that there are offices for the various megacorps in the city and bars where you meet Johnsons and get randomly generated runs, but way bigger so it feels like an actual city.

[Shadarr]

Jesus. Do you like video games AT ALL? Maybe something like Barbie's Sewing Circle and Book Club Adventure would be more your speed.
Hugin has more gamer cred on his superfluous third nipple than you have in your whole body. I know it sounds crazy, but sometimes people just have different opinions.

[Zep--]

I always thought a GTA MMO game would be cool,

...but you should not know who is an NPC and Who is a player....

be a cop, be a hooker, be a random guy on the street..noone else would know for sure.

Zp--

[Shadarr]

I'd settle for GTA co-op.

They could base it on The Krays.

[Jasper]

I always thought a GTA MMO game would be cool,

...but you should not know who is an NPC and Who is a player....

be a cop, be a hooker, be a random guy on the street..noone else would know for sure.
Good luck with the AI to make NPCs indistinguishable from PCs.

[Zep--]

Good luck with the AI to make NPCs indistinguishable from PCs.

You act like an AI to be stealhty..the people who don't , get jacked by the playing like AI people.

Zep--

[Shadarr]

A GTA game where there are snipers on all the rooftops and tanks rolling around the city wouldn't really be a GTA game anymore.

What you're talking about sounds more like an alien invasion game--you don't know who's an alien and who's not, or if you're the only human left, so you try to blend in and not attract attention. That could be fun too.

[Marcus]

Worked fine when I played it. The controls are better on the 360 in fact with the black and white buttons mapped to the bumpers.

OK well here is a good question. Which one would be better GTA on the 360 or on the PS3. I am tempted to pick up the PS2 version but if the 360 version plays and looks better then I'd have to go with that one.

Thoughts?

Talking about the trilogy pack.

[Matthew Gallant]

Hugin has more gamer cred on his superfluous third nipple than you have in your whole body. I know it sounds crazy, but sometimes people just have different opinions.
Settle down there, pal. You don't really know much about this young miss, other than she got bamboozled into believing outré, nihilistic and warmthless "comedy" is awesome enough to reference via username.

Regardless of that, her "cred" relative to Mr. H is a major assumption on your part-- and making an argument against GTA is a bit of a BobJustBobsian tic, you have to admit.

[Shadarr]

making an argument against GTA is a bit of a BobJustBobsian tic, you have to admit.
It's hardly Bobsian. Everybody has a few generally-considered great games that they don't like. Bob is special because he hates just about everything (yet continues to buy and play ridiculous amounts of games). Also selling and re-buying the same consoles and games.

But as far as the newb, 35 posts isn't enough to be making Barbie game cracks with impunity, especially when similar posts have been made and answered in the same thread.

[Zep--]

A GTA game where there are snipers on all the rooftops and tanks rolling around the city wouldn't really be a GTA game anymore.

What you're talking about sounds more like an alien invasion game--you don't know who's an alien and who's not, or if you're the only human left, so you try to blend in and not attract attention. That could be fun too.

Not like that..I mean..just blend to blend..if an NPC or a Player commits a crime or whatever you could react to that..or not.

If you have a little clan and want to hang out on a street corner harassing people, you can...or it could be just an AI gang..noone would know if you played it right.

there would be no chat bubble, or NAMES over your head.

Well...maybe that would not be a good idea, the no chat thing...I'm sure you'd wanna talk to your friends, but it should not be noticble to others in the game world.

If someone can figure that out, we'd have a winner.

Zep--

[Shadarr]

I really can't imagine a way to make it so you can have a GTA experience where you're not the only one stealing cars. 1000 simultaneous players means 1000 people running down pedestrians, gunning down gang members and running from the cops. Can you imagine trying to drive anywhere when there are 50 car chases going on at once, with other people throwing grenades or blocking roads with parked cars to grief the car chases?

[Zep--]

Not really, because you have the AI cops and FBI on your ass all the time..you'd build up a 5 STAR level or whatever and be wiped out by the AI Cops if you play like a total 12 year old dumbass.

Be a smooth criminal..and win!

Zep--

[Zep--]

There was this game I used to play..some online flight sim years ago, and I would take a jeep or a tank and drive for what seemed like an hour till i reached the enemy base, and I would sit at the end of their runway blowing their planes up before they could take off. It would take a while for them to catch on what the hell was happening, but sooner or later they would band together and get in jeeps and tanks and chase me off or kill me..that was very fun for me.

Zep--

[Shadarr]

What I'm saying is that even if you don't play like a dumbass, somebody will be, and probably several somebodies at all times. So you're going to be constantly running into trains of cops, FBI cars and helicopters. There will be a line-up at the pay 'n spray. There will be wrecked cars all over the place. Basically instead of feeling like a normal city with a criminal underground it'll be like a war zone.

[Zep--]

But if you're not involed, you are just a spectaor in that mess and move on to another part of town, or use that mayhem to your advantage to bust a cap in the losers.

That might be part the fun of it anyway..total mayhem.

yeah..all the bugs arn't worked out of my armchair design doc, but i think their could be some fun had in this type of environment.

Zep--

[Shadarr]

I don't think it would be fun to be standing on the sidewalk blending in with the hookers or cops or whoever is there, and then somebody whips around the corner and mows you all down.

[Marcin]

Can you imagine trying to drive anywhere when there are 50 car chases going on at once, with other people throwing grenades or blocking roads with parked cars to grief the car chases?

No, but it sounds like it could be fun. Just a different game entirely.

[Shadarr]

Mercenaries might make a good Planetside-style online game.

The GTA concept, to me, is all about being a criminal in a relatively normal city. Which doesn't work if the city is filled with criminals, then it's more like Escape from New York.

[Zep--]

I don't think it would be fun to be standing on the sidewalk blending in with the hookers or cops or whoever is there, and then somebody whips around the corner and mows you all down.

You usually had to run them over a few times in GTA before they died anyway, right? So you either bust out your own gun at that point or run away, or pull the asshole out of his car and jack it and drive away, or run him over.

Zep--

[Kael]

Good luck with the AI to make NPCs indistinguishable from PCs.

I think this is about all you will need:


void CvPlayerAI::performAI(PlayerType iVictim)
{
if (iVictim == female)
{
degradeMyselfForAttention();
return;
}
if (getMoney() < 10)
{
begForMoney();
return;
}

if (AIType == homophobe)
{
szMessage = getRandomGayBash();
}
if (AIType == racist)
{
szMessage = getRandomSlur();
}
if (AIType == leet)
{
szMessage = getRandomBoast();
}
szMessage = mispellFilter(szMessage);
szMessage = incoherantFilter(szMessage);
say(szMessage);
randomTryToKillSomone();
shoutForNoReason();
}

[Papageno]

OK well here is a good question. Which one would be better GTA on the 360 or on the PS3. I am tempted to pick up the PS2 version but if the 360 version plays and looks better then I'd have to go with that one.

Thoughts?

Talking about the trilogy pack.

I never played the Xbox (1) versions, but I can't see how they wouldn't be better, since every Xbox could count on a hard drive whereas the PS2 couldn't. There aren't any native "360 versions" only back-compat Xbox versions.

[Jazar]

OK well here is a good question. Which one would be better GTA on the 360 or on the PS3. I am tempted to pick up the PS2 version but if the 360 version plays and looks better then I'd have to go with that one.

Thoughts?

Talking about the trilogy pack.

I would go with the Xbox version as it has slightly upgraded visuals and a farther viewing distance.

[jerri blank]

It's hardly Bobsian. Everybody has a few generally-considered great games that they don't like. Bob is special because he hates just about everything (yet continues to buy and play ridiculous amounts of games). Also selling and re-buying the same consoles and games.

But as far as the newb, 35 posts isn't enough to be making Barbie game cracks with impunity, especially when similar posts have been made and answered in the same thread.

You know, you're right. I apologize to Hugin for the Barbie crack. I think his use of the words "stupid," "shallow" and "asinine" to describe Crackdown rubbed me the wrong way; it seemed insulting to those of us who enjoyed it as the video gaming equivalent to cotton candy it is. There's a place in this world for games that are just dumb fun.



jb

[worm]

I don't really care if you're actually a stupid racist or are just trying too hard to mock the people in this thread who complained about the gangster storylines in these games... either way it's you spouting racist-sounding garbage that makes the rest of the board hope you get banned.
I guess you guys all hoped hard enough! He was just mocking people, but ah, it sounds racist, so better be safe.

[Hugin]

You know, you're right. I apologize to Hugin for the Barbie crack. I think his use of the words "stupid," "shallow" and "asinine" to describe Crackdown rubbed me the wrong way; it seemed insulting to those of us who enjoyed it as the video gaming equivalent to cotton candy it is. There's a place in this world for games that are just dumb fun.

jb

I apologize as well.

(get the scrollwheel ready, tl;dr types)

A few things about me:

My two main gaming loves are strategy, either turn based or real time and narrative heavy..whatever. Adventure/RPG/Action, so long as it's "cinematic" and "has a good story" or "great characters". I'm a complete sucker for beauty, and I'm a complete sucker for sci-fi, and I'm a complete sucker for character customization (the Barbie crack is not so far off, I have an embarassing number of City of Heroes alts just because I love the character creator so much).

Ugly games, or games with ugly character models are a big turnoff to me. Games with juvenile sexist portrayals of women are a turnoff. Games that try to leverage "the hood" or black culture in a way I think is negative are a turnoff.

I'm completely tired of WW2, and I'm completely tired of Tolkien-derived/ripoff fantasy. I'm moderately tired of gangsters/mobsters/playing as a crime lord or antihero, I think the industry makes too many first person shooters, I think the industry doesn't value good writing enough, I think the industry is (there are exceptions and things are slowly getting better) too sexist, homophobic, juvenile, male, and white. I have little to no interest in sports games, driving games, and aside from Super Metroid, I have little interest in Nintendo, especially Mario anything, first person Metroid anything, or Zelda anything. I like RPGs but I think most of them are too long.

On Crackdown:

I was down on Crackdown because I heard "sci-fi GTA" and got excited, and then played the demo and it just felt very shallow to me. I'm sorry, it just did. Great draw distance, but I didn't care about the Crackdown world. And everyone who loved it kept regaling me with stories (or showing me youtube clips) of stacking things, jumping on and off things, blowing stacks of things up. It felt like half an hour of mindless diversion to me, or a game engine demo, not a "real" game. I realize people liked it, and to the extent I didn't find anything in the game offensive, I apologize to folks who I insulted for finding it fun.

Some games I've liked or loved:

M.U.L.E, Elite, Archon, Master of Orion 2, Heaven and Earth, Populous 2, Syndicate, Descent 1 and 2, Half Life 1 and 2, Wipeout XL, FF7, FFTactics, Front Mission 4, Disgaea 1 and 2, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, Total Annihiliation, Starcraft, Earth 2150, Privateer, City of Heroes, Planetside, Diablo 1, Mass Effect, Bioshock, Orange Box, Gears of War, Einhander, Persona 1, Parasite Eve 1, Devil May Cry 1, Tetris, Maelstrom, Desktop Tower Defense, Longest Journey, Obsidian, Mechcommander, Mechwarrior series, Homeworld series, Carnage Heart.

Games I don't like/care about: Halo anything, Nintendo just about anything, id games anything, Counterstrike, Battlefield series, Gran Turismo series, GTA series, Metal Gear series, Elder Scrolls series, Ultima Series, WoW, X-Com series, Fallout series, Everquest, Thief series, Splinter Cell series (any Tom Clancy/present day stealth commando/squad combat games), any WW2 based FPS or RTS, although that one by Relic wasn't awful...god knows what the name was. Google says Company of Heroes.

I don't like World of Warcraft. Eve Online would be awesome if it wasn't built around nonconsensual PVP. I dislike nonconsensual PVP more than anything else in MMO design. Actually, the thing I hate most in MMO design is tying appearance to stats. I want my character to look the way I want him or her to look, not the way +4 Shoulders of Grinding and +7 WolfBarf Plate force me to look, because I need their stats. Someone needs to make an updated Planetside, and no, Tabula Rasa isn't it. Someone needs to make an updated/good Neocron. I really really hope LittleBigPlanet and The Secret World wind up good

I like pecan pie.

[Xemu]

If you want to play San Andreas, play the PC version. It's easily the best. Mouselook is great for the shooting parts, and you can plug a 360 controller in if you prefer that for driving. Much better draw distance too (even without the crazy draw distance mods).

I'm just starting up another playthrough of SA (my 3rd complete one) via my laptop hooked up to my big TV. Sort of the 360 version that never was.

[worm]

Games that try to leverage "the hood" or black culture in a way I think is negative are a turnoff.
Would you like to have Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King Jr. jacking cars?

[Hugin]

Would you like to have Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King Jr. jacking cars?

I'd say "jacking cars" is not very interesting gameplay to me overall. Although you spur an interesting thought. Could someone make an RPG/GTA/Sims type game dealing with social unrest or a civil rights struggle? Oh, not blacks in the US or South Africa, it would be hopelessly provocative. But Mass Effect is chock full of racial tension, and you see it in fantasy RPGs as well (elves vs dwarves or whatever).

Could anyone build a whole game around it? Faction building, dealing with politicians and police and the press (maybe some kind of resouce management stuff "Charisma" "Street Cred" "Good Will" "Networking" "Diplomacy" ...I dunno. But if we routinely have games about war and about every kind of physical struggle, could that ever be translated into a more social/political one? Maybe endgame (as in South Africa) become real nationbuilding. I'd find that fascinating. You could start off as some minority group or marginal political party, and try to see how much change you could effect/power you could gain. I know there's been stuff like Tropico... could that concept be taken further?

[Kael]

Some games I've liked or loved:

M.U.L.E, Elite, Archon, Master of Orion 2, Heaven and Earth, Populous 2, Syndicate, Descent 1 and 2, Half Life 1 and 2, Wipeout XL, FF7, FFTactics, Front Mission 4, Disgaea 1 and 2, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, Total Annihiliation, Starcraft, Earth 2150, Privateer, City of Heroes, Planetside, Diablo 1, Mass Effect, Bioshock, Orange Box, Gears of War, Einhander, Persona 1, Parasite Eve 1, Devil May Cry 1, Tetris, Maelstrom, Desktop Tower Defense, Longest Journey, Obsidian, Mechcommander, Mechwarrior series, Homeworld series, Carnage Heart.

I agree with a ton of what you have said. Although as a gaming archetype you are definitly on the opposite end of the spectrum than the "mindless dumb fun" games. No place on that spectrum is "correct", its just personal preference.

I found your list of gaming loves most interesting. But to me it says that you are an aging gamer that is having problems recapturing the enthusiasm that gaming provided in your youth (Im in the same boat as a 35 year old gamer that finds it so rare to hit that magic game that I just cant wait to get back to). In fact your list seems to be dominated by old games that make me wonder if you would have such fond memories of them if they were released at this stage of your life.

In other words, are the games getting worse, or are you getting more discerning/picky?

ps. Another note, Im really surprised Shadow of the Colossus wasn't on your list. It really seems to hit that "games as art" quality.

pss. Or I could just be blowing smoke, psychoanalysis via gaming trends isnt an exact science.

[jfletch]

I'd say "jacking cars" is not very interesting gameplay to me overall. Although you spur an interesting thought. Could someone make an RPG/GTA/Sims type game dealing with social unrest or a civil rights struggle? Oh, not blacks in the US or South Africa, it would be hopelessly provocative. But Mass Effect is chock full of racial tension, and you see it in fantasy RPGs as well (elves vs dwarves or whatever).

Could anyone build a whole game around it? Faction building, dealing with politicians and police and the press (maybe some kind of resouce management stuff "Charisma" "Street Cred" "Good Will" "Networking" "Diplomacy" ...I dunno. But if we routinely have games about war and about every kind of physical struggle, could that ever be translated into a more social/political one? Maybe endgame (as in South Africa) become real nationbuilding. I'd find that fascinating. You could start off as some minority group or marginal political party, and try to see how much change you could effect/power you could gain. I know there's been stuff like Tropico... could that concept be taken further?

Republic: The Revolution seems like a first step in what you describe, but the way that game turned out seems to make other people timid to try it again.

[ElGuapo]

If you want to play San Andreas, play the PC version. It's easily the best. Mouselook is great for the shooting parts, and you can plug a 360 controller in if you prefer that for driving. Much better draw distance too (even without the crazy draw distance mods).

I'm just starting up another playthrough of SA (my 3rd complete one) via my laptop hooked up to my big TV. Sort of the 360 version that never was.

The Xbox version is fully BC with the 360, so it's like the 360 version that is right now. :)

[Damien Neil]

I'd say "jacking cars" is not very interesting gameplay to me overall. Although you spur an interesting thought. Could someone make an RPG/GTA/Sims type game dealing with social unrest or a civil rights struggle?

You clearly want Liberal Crime Squad (http://www.bay12games.com/lcs/), from the makers of the unrepentantly awesome Dwarf Fortress.

[Anti-Bunny]

You clearly want Liberal Crime Squad (http://www.bay12games.com/lcs/), from the makers of the unrepentantly awesome Dwarf Fortress.
Seconding this. A graphical version of LCS would be more awesome then a graphical version of Dwarf Fortress

[Marcin]

If you want to play San Andreas, play the PC version. It's easily the best. Mouselook is great for the shooting parts, and you can plug a 360 controller in if you prefer that for driving. Much better draw distance too (even without the crazy draw distance mods).


Erm, stupid question, but how do I do "plugin" a 360 controller to a PC? Or, to rephrase, is there a way to use my wireless controller on Windows w/o jumping through hoops?

Used GTA:SA Xbox is 10 bucks, so a solution would have to be less than that to work for me :D I absolutely cannot drive with mouse/keyboard.

[Papageno]

They sell some kind of wireless receiver doohickey so that you can use your wireless 360 controller with Windows, I think. Otherwise get a wired USB one, which is what I did for my second controller.

If you already have some kind of wired gamepad with dual analog sticks, you can have that be your driving control and drop it in your lap to switch to mouse/keyboard for the on-foot stuff. It's what I do, since the PC GTA's have never gotten the right-stick recognition right-- pushing forward and back on it always makes your guy turn.

[Hugin]

I found your list of gaming loves most interesting. But to me it says that you are an aging gamer that is having problems recapturing the enthusiasm that gaming provided in your youth (Im in the same boat as a 35 year old gamer that finds it so rare to hit that magic game that I just cant wait to get back to).

Part of it is the classic "I have a job and something resembling a life and can't game all the time like in the old days." Part of it is I grew up (somewhat), and I feel like maybe the industry lagged a bit...or, to be more charitable, the industry continued to target a demographic I simply passed out of, which is fine from a business perspective but left me with fewer interesting games to play. Part of it is probably me just forgetting a bunch of PS1 and PS2 games I liked. For example, I just remembered Soul Calibur, and Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance, and gah, Beyond Good and Evil.

In fact your list seems to be dominated by old games that make me wonder if you would have such fond memories of them if they were released at this stage of your life.

In other words, are the games getting worse, or are you getting more discerning/picky?

The industry went away from my tastes in many ways. The FPS took over. The Adventure genre got more and more niche, the turn based game got more and more niche. And in general, the type of game I often like, art asset heavy, narrative heavy, tend to be expensive and take a long time to develop. When you can crank out FPS #20, or Platformer/Action game #37 profitably...

The good news is, technology is such that developers have the ability to do things in games that were never possible before, and that gets me excited. Whether devs follow through or not is another question, but when I look at this year's games, even ones I didn't play or didn't love necessarily, I see a lot of richness that bodes well for the future, especially if there are some breakthroughs on the content creation side that help keep the budgets and production schedules from spiraling out of control.


ps. Another note, Im really surprised Shadow of the Colossus wasn't on your list. It really seems to hit that "games as art" quality.

I love that Team Ico exist, because I'm sure that one day they'll make a game I want to play. :) I love their sense of place, their emotional and visual presentation, their thoughtfulness, their stillness, they are the antithesis of the sort of fratty heavy metal mode so many other game developers seem to be in. But I played some Ico and I looked at SotC, and they seem to me to be, fantastic presentation aside... platformers. Kind of weak platformers at that. Not a big platformer guy. If they made a SotC movie I'd be first in line. Or an RPG set in the (sorta kinda shared) Ico/SotC world.

[Hugin]

You clearly want Liberal Crime Squad (http://www.bay12games.com/lcs/), from the makers of the unrepentantly awesome Dwarf Fortress.

That looks very interesting, I should check it out.

[worm]

Could someone make an RPG/GTA/Sims type game dealing with social unrest or a civil rights struggle?
You're right, an IRA game would be infinitely cooler than either Manhunt or GTA. Too bad rockstar's balls haven't dropped yet.

[BDGE]

If anyone's curious, I sunk some time into GTA:SA on 360 this weekend, and the game runs beautifully, plus it looks really clean upscaled to HD. Loadtimes are trimmed down to negligible chunks, and the controls are excellent. No noticeable glitches or warts have exposed themselves yet either.

Really liking the game, the music selections are top-notch for the radio stations, and the RPG stat building is a nice way to promote umm...dicking around with the game.

[Marcin]

If anyone's curious, I sunk some time into GTA:SA on 360 this weekend, and the game runs beautifully, plus it looks really clean upscaled to HD. Loadtimes are trimmed down to negligible chunks, and the controls are excellent. No noticeable glitches or warts have exposed themselves yet either.

Really liking the game, the music selections are top-notch for the radio stations, and the RPG stat building is a nice way to promote umm...dicking around with the game.

Hah, so did I. I have a bit of distortion near the top of my screen, but it's only visible when the screen blanks out. However, the aspect ratio is distorted; I forget, is that how XBox games render on the 360? It's rendered as a square rather than a rectangle - seems like 1024x1024 rather than 1280x1024.

Great game though. For some reason SA feels much more like a real place than Saints Row.

[ElGuapo]

Marcus, get the Xbox versions. Actually, since you're realistically not going to play all 3, get GTA: San Andreas for the Xbox. It's perfectly BC on the 360. I'm actually playing it now. Did dozens of missions last night, still a great game. The upscaling on the 360 to 720p makes it look tolerable, I think. You also get the 30 second "replay" mode and unlimited snapshots, which is nice.

The reason San Andreas is the best is a multitude of reasons, but most of them are that the last one is way bigger and more open than the first two. You can fly planes, jets, helicopters, dirt bike around the desert, parachute all over the place, etc. There are also gameplay improvements that you will miss by going back to the first one, such as the ability to shoot through windshields (not sure if this was in GTA: VC .. I know tire popping was) and especially, especially swim.

There is so much to explore in GTA: SA it's mind boggling.

One thing: You might not like their portrayal of cops in LA and cops in general, but . . . you knew that already.

[madkevin]

Hah, so did I. I have a bit of distortion near the top of my screen, but it's only visible when the screen blanks out. However, the aspect ratio is distorted; I forget, is that how XBox games render on the 360? It's rendered as a square rather than a rectangle - seems like 1024x1024 rather than 1280x1024.

I could never figure out how to get widescreen to work properly on GTA:SA on my 360. It runs in a box slightly wider than 4:3, but not as big as 16:9. Other than that, though, the game works great.

[Xemu]

The main reason to play the PC version on your TV instead of the BC 360 version is graphical quality. Texture quality, visual density, resolution, and draw distances are all WAY better on the PC version. It doesn't exactly look like a real 360 version but it's a lot nicer than the original Xbox.

You can just plug in a 360 wired controller directly. I've got a Vista laptop and it mostly seems to just work. HOWEVER, the support for gamepad play in GTA:SA natively is kind of weak. I use a program called Xpadder to use the 360 controller to emulate controls via the mouse+keyboard mode -- so that I can use the right stick to look around, for example.

So it took some jiggery pokery, but I think I now have the 'ultimate' San Andreas experience running from my laptop on my HDTV, using the controller 90% of the time and then switching to wireless keyboard & mouse when I want more precision aiming.

Really I just wish the BC version looked as good as the PC version, it would be a lot less hassle. If you don't care about the extra visual fidelity and even faster load times you can stick with the Xbox version on the 360.

[Marcin]

Texture quality, visual density, resolution, and draw distances are all WAY better on the PC version.

I know they are (I have that version as well), but control is key for me. I can deal with the lesser graphics, but I can't deal with the craptastic PC controls for driving, and especially for flying.

And then there's the economics. The XBox version is 10 bucks; a wired 360 controller is what, 30? That's just not worth it for one game (I mostly play TBS/FPS/MMO on the PC, so a gamepad would be a one-game expense).

I could never figure out how to get widescreen to work properly on GTA:SA on my 360. It runs in a box slightly wider than 4:3, but not as big as 16:9. Other than that, though, the game works great.

Um, 4:3 would be great. Alas, it's more like 2:2. Hm, I need to fire up Mercs and see if it's the same.

Edit: I have done so, and no. Mercs fills the screen. GTASA leaves about 1/2 inch black bars on each side.

WEIRD.

[CheesyPoof]

I know they are (I have that version as well), but control is key for me. I can deal with the lesser graphics, but I can't deal with the craptastic PC controls for driving, and especially for flying.
I think Rockstar really worked on the keyboard controls for SA as it handled really well with it. I got 100% using only the keyboard, but when playing VC I had to use a PC controller.

[BDGE]

I think Rockstar really worked on the keyboard controls for SA as it handled really well with it. I got 100% using only the keyboard, but when playing VC I had to use a PC controller.

Yea, I finished VC on PC using a PS2 controller. I tried initially to play with the keyboard/mouse, but the vehicle controls were far too unwieldly.

Mafia gave me lots of similar issues. I pretty much quit the game entirely in the early hours when you had to steal a 20's era F1-style racer at night and deliver it(with no damage) to some checkpoint across the city. The endeavor fueled so much excess frustration on a keyboard, that it nearly soured my enjoyment of playing open-world crime games period.

[Anti-Bunny]

five pages and no mention of multiplayer? SA:MP (http://www.sa-mp.com/) made the PC game superior.

[ElGuapo]

I didn't watch Dave Chapelle's show (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/28852.html) much when it was on but I found this while looking for GTA trailers. Funny stuff.