Teddy Bear Murder

[SlyFrog]

Woman names Teddy Bear "Mohammed," woman should be murdered.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22039372/

Okay, in the past, people have suggested that these stories are exaggerated, or are just raising cultural boogeymen. The speakers in the story are being mistranslated, or are being misinterpreted, etc.

So what's the deal here? A teacher accepts a class vote to name the class teddy bear "Mohammed." Now apparently the court has given her the "light" sentence of 15 days in prison plus deportation at the end of the term.

Meanwhile, thousands of Sudanese are marching in the street demanding that she be executed.

How is this explained? Do they really want to murder her because she named a bear Mohammed? Is something else going on here? Western media bias? Mistranslation of the situation?

[Nick Walter]

Isn't this just a continuation of their simmering outrage over us crazy godless westerners not taking their rules for treatment of the prophet seriously? I would guess this is probably the same group of people that got all upset over that cartoon.

[Morkilus]

No less crazy than the thousands of Sudanese that think other Sudanese should be killed simply because they were born to the wrong tribe. Is it a big deal because she's a Westerner?

[olaf]

Its a religion of peace.

[extarbags]

You left out the craziest part: the kid that suggested the name "Mohammed" for the teddy bear's name is Mohammed. He was naming it after himself. So yes, this is extremely bizarre. But as Morkilus hinted at, Sudan is kind of a fucked up place in general at the moment, so I wouldn't expect too much sanity to come from there.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Its a religion of peace.

In other news, crazy fundamentalist wackos are still not representative of any given religion at large.

[SlyFrog]

In other news, crazy fundamentalist wackos are still not representative of any given religion at large.

I think you beg the question by stating this. Are they crazy, fundamentalist wackos (the thousands of them that appear able to march without interruption and call for the deaths of individuals)? Or is this representative of the religion?

I think it is a fair question to ask, in the same way it would be fair to ask whether Reverend Phelp's viewpoints are representative of Christianity. With Phelps, I can at least say that there are often massive counter protests, his demonstrators seem to measure in the single digits or at least under 100 (I have at least not yet seen massive Christian protest marches, or really any other religion (except maybe Hinduism, on reflection) where thousands of people are in the streets calling for an individual's death due to a perceived slight to the religion.

Anyway, you may well be right, but all you are doing is simply stating a conclusion.

Are there articles out there with calls by more moderate Islamic leaders suggesting that this was an innocent act (or even more, one of free speech) that is not deserving of punishment, let alone murder? Where is the tangible counterveiling viewpoint (or is all that we rely on the fact that there are millions of Muslims whose minds we don't know one way or the other, because they are not publicly calling for her death in the streets)?

[extarbags]

I think you beg the question by stating this. Are they crazy, fundamentalist wackos (the thousands of them that appear able to march without interruption and call for the deaths of individuals)? Or is this representative of the religion?

I think it is a fair question to ask, in the same way it would be fair to ask whether Reverend Phelp's viewpoints are representative of Christianity. With Phelps, I can at least say that there are often massive counter protests, his demonstrators seem to measure in the single digits or at least under 100 (I have at least not yet seen massive Christian protest marches, or really any other religion (except maybe Hinduism, on reflection) where thousands of people are in the streets calling for an individual's death due to a perceived slight to the religion.

Anyway, you may well be right, but all you are doing is simply stating a conclusion.

I have mixed feelings about this post. On the one hand, I'm moved almost to tears by the correct usage of the phrase "beg the question," which is very seldom seen these days, so thank you and bravo on that. On the other hand, just about everything else in it is horse shit.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

I think you beg the question by stating this. Are they crazy, fundamentalist wackos (the thousands of them that appear able to march without interruption and call for the deaths of individuals)? Or is this representative of the religion?

Well, as has already been pointed out, Sudan has a lot of crazy shit going on, so ascribing this particular incident to Islam alone is, I think, far more indicative of olaf's mindset than that of Islam's practicioners.

[jpinard]

In other news, crazy fundamentalist wackos are still not representative of any given religion at large.

Not true in the case of Sharia.

[extarbags]

Not true in the case of Sharia.

How so?

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Not true in the case of Sharia.

See aforementioned "crazy fundamentalist wackos."

Treating Islam like one monolithic religion makes about as much sense as treating all versions of Christianity (Catholics, Protestants, etc.) as one monolithic religion.

[olaf]

In other news, crazy fundamentalist wackos are still not representative of any given religion at large.

Yeah because every religion does this kind of thing. All the time. OH WAIT.

[Morkilus]

Did you know certain Muslims in Sudan hate certain other Muslims in Sudan as much as certain Christians in Great Britain hate certain other Christians in Great Britain? Shocking!

It's pretty retarded to blame Islam. Blame human nature, poverty, overpopulation, opportunistic weapons dealers, and shitty governments.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Yeah because every religion does this kind of thing. All the time. OH WAIT.
Abortion clinic bombings.

[SlyFrog]

Abortion clinic bombings.

Thought about this. Also thought about Reverend Phelps (which is why I mentioned it). But the problem with both is that they do not seem to occur with anywhere near the scale that you see here.

Though admittedly I am not fully up on the antiabortion protest circuit, perhaps their rallies calling for the deaths of specific doctors (or hell, just all abortion doctors) reach the thousands? Even in that case, I'm not sure you can compare the issue with that of naming a teddy bear "Muhammed," but that may be equivocating or calling for exceptionalism.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Thought about this. Also thought about Reverend Phelps (which is why I mentioned it). But the problem with both is that it seems nowhere near the scale that you see here.
Sure, the scale is large here, but again, Sudan is a crazy place. There are a LOT more factors going on here than just Islam.

[extarbags]

You've already been told why. This happens every single time; the person or persons on your side cite this crap as though it's proof positive that Islam is an inherently violent religion for defective psychopaths, you're told all of the actual reasons for the events you're seeing, and you just shrug it off and keep on truckin'.

[Machfive]

Some of you continue to confuse "culture" with "religion." And I say that as a bloody atheist, so yeah.

[SlyFrog]

You've already been told why. This happens every single time; the person or persons on your side cite this crap as though it's proof positive that Islam is an inherently violent religion for defective psychopaths, you're told all of the actual reasons for the events you're seeing, and you just shrug it off and keep on truckin'.

What are those actual reasons? State them explicitly, rather than saying it's all horseshit, or we've been told the reasons.

List out with specificity the reasons for the events we're seeing, recognizing the fact that this particular blowup appears to center specifically on giving a school's teddy bear the name of the prophet.

It helps to not treat it as one monolithic entity if we can have better understanding as to why the images we get of that entity are not representative of the whole, beyond simple statements that it is not.

[extarbags]

For starters:


Blame human nature, poverty, overpopulation, opportunistic weapons dealers, and shitty governments.

[Nick Walter]

What are those actual reasons? State them explicitly, rather than saying it's all horseshit, or we've been told the reasons.


The reason is that you are mixing up the religion and the culture. If this was an Islamic issue, why aren't we seeing a great outcry from every predominantly muslim nation on the planet?



List out with specificity the reasons for the events we're seeing, recognizing the fact that this particular blowup appears to center specifically on giving a school's teddy bear the name of the prophet.


The reason is that some backwards people get really damn twitchy over small slights to their religion. I don't think this is a surprise after all that foofrah last year over Mohammed in a Dutch cartoon. But again, that's the culture of the region more than the dogma of the religion.



It helps to not treat it as one monolithic entity if we can have better understanding as to why the images we get of that entity are not representative of the whole, beyond simple statements that it is not.

Well you can keep on splitting and splitting and trying for more and more detailed explanation until you bury the thread in details but the simple fact remains that sometimes actions taken in the name of religion are not at all in line with what a religion officially endorses. So you have to real careful in your speech. If you want to get down on fanatic Islamism as practiced by those extreme enough to think a schoolteacher merits death for naming a teddy wrong sacreligiously, I'm all with you. If you want to get down on Islam in general over the issue, I'm going to have to disagree.

[jpinard]

Well lets see, this happens in Sudan, Saudia Arabia, Iran, Afganistan, parts of Pakistan, Yemen, & Syria as well. Did I leave anyone out? etc. Sudan wasn't always a Sharia ruled country with insane laws - and last I remember Saudia Arabia is pretty fricking rich so you can't blame this on poverty.

Maybe they should be executing the children as well? After all, the children had the gall to come up with that name for the teddy bear! How awful!

Using "culture" as a blanket to accept inhuman behavior is riduculous. It's like people excusing Michael Vick for dogfighting because, "Oh it's a cultural thing". If Islam wanted to be known as a "peaceful" religion as a whole, they should be actively addressing this kind of ridiculous behavior. Does Al -Jazeera promote peace over violence? Does Al-Jazeera promote human rights and tolerance? And how quickly people forget the outrageous things the "courts" do in some of these Islamic countries. Human rights? What the fuck are those - our women don't need them!

And in the case of violent and stupid Christian nutjobs, there's usually (not always) an equal or greater number of Christians deriding their awful behavior. When Phelps was out pulling their stupid crap, they were outnumbered 10-1 and sometimes over 100-1. Other Baptists churches were outraged at the stunts they pulled as was the rest of Christianity. There was no shortage of Christians angered at the insenstivity and inhumanity fo the Phelps brigade.

Where are the protests marchers in the rest of the Islamic world to free this innocent woman who dedicated her life to help Sudanese children?
What's that? There aren't any? *GASP*
OK, what about big press releases to support her, so no one gets the wrong idea about Islamic rule? Oh wow... the only thing I could find is a tiny blurb form a small Muslim org in Britain saying they wanted her freed. WHile searching for support of this teacher what do I find? Oh, crap like this: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24539_Muslim_Council_of_Britain_Steps_Up_Is lamization_Effort&only

[Machfive]

It's not EXCUSING the culture, JP, it's blaming the culture when the culture is legitimately to blame.

[extarbags]

and last I remember Saudia Arabia is pretty fricking rich so you can't blame this on poverty.

Wow. Unbelievably ill-informed. Saudi Arabia is extremely rich--and its wealth is almost entirely concentrated in the hands of the ruling class, leaving the vast majority of its population oppressed and impoverished. It's actually probably the best example of despotic Middle East governments being to blame for terrorism, etc, rather than Islam. GG.

[Sarkus]

I like how "cultural diversity" gets thrown out the window when a culture chooses to believe things that we don't like.

I'm not defending the people in the streets of the Sudan, though I also don't think it's clear that they fully understand what is going on themselves. The fact that the court gave her a relatively light sentence should be proof enough that the marchers don't represent the view of the majority. More likely is that this incident is being flamed by some radicals that were already annoyed that the teacher is not of their culture.

And, in general, this isn't the kind of behavior most muslims endorse. Just like christianity there are always radicals with differing interpretations of what is right or wrong.

[Nick Walter]

It's not EXCUSING the culture, JP, it's blaming the culture when the culture is legitimately to blame.

Yep. Nobody is here trying to defend the idea that wrongly naming a teddy bear actually merits two weeks in jail. That ain't right. But in our haste to condemn we should be careful that we don't create or strengthen irrational stereotypes by simply blaming the first handy and obvious difference between their culture and ours.

[PeterGinsberg]

Does Al -Jazeera promote peace over violence? Does Al-Jazeera promote human rights and tolerance?


I never understood why people always drag Al Jazeera into their shotgun anti-islam rants, other than believing some of Rumsfel's old BS.

Not that I'm an avid viewer or anything, but they are pretty moderate and in line with Western style news (edit: I mean that in kind of the worst way possible, FYI). Biased, sure, but more Fox of the Arab world than voice of radical islam. They're pretty unpopular with that set, as far as I've heard.

Somewhat related case in point from this past spring:
An Egyptian court sentenced Howayda Taha, a producer of Al Jazeera, to six months in jail, or a fine of $1,760, for her part in producing a feature on torture by the Egyptian police..

Something to think about when you're working on your next rant.

[SlyFrog]

Well you can keep on splitting and splitting and trying for more and more detailed explanation until you bury the thread in details . . . .

But you have to get to some level of detail, otherwise you waive everything away with generalities that could apply to every situation.

For example, I appreciate extarbags attempt to provide some details, but they could be used to explain about 90% of anything that goes wrong, which does not give us any real incite into the details as to why things go wrong in certain situations when they do not go wrong in others.

For example:


Blame human nature, poverty, overpopulation, opportunistic weapons dealers, and shitty governments.

describes Myanmar and Vietnam as well. Why aren't they out in the streets screaming for the blood of those who name teddy bears Mohammed?

[Nick Walter]

But you have to get to some level of detail, otherwise you waive everything away with generalities that could apply to every situation.


Fair enough, but that goes both ways. If you want to make an argument that Islam is somehow a worsening factor you'd need to provide detail that other countries which are at the same levels economically, culturally, and educationally with Sudan but differ in religion are more civilized.

[Nick Walter]

describes Myanmar and Vietnam as well. Why aren't they out in the streets screaming for the blood of those who name teddy bears Mohammed?

Because we haven't been manipulating their governments quite shamelessly and overtly for years? We've earned a lot of ill will that way, and I bet it's easy for them to consider us scapegoats for lots of things wrong in the region right now.

[Tim Partlett]

When British people go to the jungles of Borneo and get eaten alive by the locals for wearing the wrong kind of fruit on a Tuesday, that's just those crazy natives at it again. When a Briton gets slammed in jail by crazy Sudanese for naming a bear Mohammad, then a whole billion people from Malaysia to Bosnia are somehow responsible and should come out and apologise.


Where are the protests marchers in the rest of the Islamic world to free this innocent woman who dedicated her life to help Sudanese children?
What's that? There aren't any? *GASP*
OK, what about big press releases to support her, so no one gets the wrong idea about Islamic rule? Oh wow... the only thing I could find is a tiny blurb form a small Muslim org in Britain saying they wanted her freed. WHile searching for support of this teacher what do I find? Oh, crap like this: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...on_Effort&only

You can't have searched too hard. I found many, including the largest British Muslim student organisation (FOSIS) and the "official" voice of Muslims, those "Islamofascists" at Muslim Council of Britain (I'll get to that laughable sharia law for schools claim in a moment).


Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, is quoted in today's Times as saying he was "appalled" at yesterday’s decision to charge her [Ms Gibbons], which he added "defied common sense".

And boy should you not read "Little Green Footballs" or the newspaper it linked to, the Express. That is unless you are an immigrant and muslim hating bigot.

That "sharia law for British schools demand" was pure bullshit. Here (http://www.mcb.org.uk/downloads/Schoolinfoguidance.pdf), I'll link the primary source, the report that apparently "demands" this for all British schools.

The actual document is, in fact, a guidebook for schools so they can understand the needs of Muslim children. It doesn't demand anything, especially not for non-Muslims. It only recommends such things as what the uniform should be, and warns that Muslim children might find swimming and changing in public uncomfortable.

Here's a snippet.


In the vast majority of primary schools, when changing for PE, both boys and girls have no choice but to change in mixed group environments for sports activities. Muslim children are likely to exhibit resistance to this sort of compromising and immodest exposure, but are often pressurised to conform to institutional norms which do not take account of their own or their parents’ beliefs and values.

Schools need to take account of, and be more responsive and sensitive to, the moral values of the children and communities they serve. In primary schools where there are no separate changing facilities, schools can use portable partitions to allow girls and boys to change in single-gender groups within the classrooms. Teachers also need to be sensitive to gender
separation in this context.

As a permanent solution, schools could consider providing separate changing facilities that include individual changing cubicles, particularly in schools that have significant or large Muslim pupil populations.

Just one of the many lies that get propagated on the internet and so easily picked up on by people, like yourself, just searching for information.

[MikeSofaer]

When British people go to the jungles of Borneo and get eaten alive by the locals for wearing the wrong kind of fruit on a Tuesday, that's just those crazy natives at it again.
No, it isn't, it's an intolerable savage murder by a primitive culture; don't be such a relativist wimp.

[SlyFrog]

Because we haven't been manipulating their governments quite shamelessly and overtly for years? We've earned a lot of ill will that way, and I bet it's easy for them to consider us scapegoats for lots of things wrong in the region right now.

So just come rant against us then. Leave the "You named a bear Muhammed," part out of it.

I'm not questioning why they are in the streets burning American flags.

[SlyFrog]

Because we haven't been manipulating their governments quite shamelessly and overtly for years? We've earned a lot of ill will that way, and I bet it's easy for them to consider us scapegoats for lots of things wrong in the region right now.

So just come rant against us then. Leave the "You named a bear Muhammed," part out of it.

I'm not questioning why they are in the streets burning American flags. And screaming for the murder of a woman because of a teddy bear named Muhammed doesn't seem to have much to do with governments earning their ill-will.

[Shadarr]

Thought about this. Also thought about Reverend Phelps (which is why I mentioned it).
Phelps is not a good example, Pat Robertson would be better. Phelps is basically just a crazy child/wife abuser who happens to use religion as one of his ways to hurt people. Almost his entire "congregation" is composed of his own family. He may call himself a Christian, but really he's even less representative of Christians than Warren Jeffs is of Mormons. He was also a lawyer, until he got disbarred. You might as well use him as an example of everything wrong with lawyers for all the relevance it would have.

[SlyFrog]

Phelps is not a good example, Pat Robertson would be better. Phelps is basically just a crazy child/wife abuser who happens to use religion as one of his ways to hurt people. Almost his entire "congregation" is composed of his own family. He may call himself a Christian, but really he's even less representative of Christians than Warren Jeffs is of Mormons. He was also a lawyer, until he got disbarred. You might as well use him as an example of everything wrong with lawyers for all the relevance it would have.

Robertson is a good example, particularly with the call for the assassination of Chavez (which he later apologized for if I recall correctly).

I picked Phelps because he seems to come closest to the over-the-top, let's murder nonbelievers bit.

[Nick Walter]

So just come rant against us then. Leave the "You named a bear Muhammed," part out of it.

I'm not questioning why they aren't in the streets burning American flags.

Because this is the latest incidence of a westerner coming to their part of the world and disrepsecting thing cultural taboos? I mean, you want to rant about them in regards to this so why shouldn't they get a chance to rant about us ;-)

[Raife]

Because this is the latest incidence of a westerner coming to their part of the world and disrepsecting thing cultural taboos? I mean, you want to rant about them in regards to this so why shouldn't they get a chance to rant about us ;-)

Burn him!

[olaf]

Abortion clinic bombings.

Yes they are SO common. When was the last one?

That is the best you can come up with? Open your eyes. We have people blowing themselves up in the name of islam weekly? People getting their heads sawed off on camera occasionally. Malls and other public places packed with innocents targeted all the time. Thousands lobbying for the EXECUTION of a teacher who named a stuffed animal after a religious figure?

And your counter is abortion clinic bombings? Yes clearly radical christians are the exact same as radical islamics.

[Uncle Larry]

but the simple fact remains that sometimes actions taken in the name of religion are not at all in line with what a religion officially endorses.

Not allowing the likeness of the prophet to be "misused" is pretty much universally in line with Islam the world over, although not everyone screams for murder in every single case.

I guess I'm just glad that I live in a country where my right to defile the likeness of my prophet is constitutionally guaranteed.

In the interests of full disclosure, though, I feel someone needs to show an image of the bear in question:

http://rofl.wheresthebeef.co.uk/Teddy%20Bear%20OMG.jpg

[Grifman]

Did you know certain Muslims in Sudan hate certain other Muslims in Sudan as much as certain Christians in Great Britain hate certain other Christians in Great Britain? Shocking!

Uh, which Christians are those?

[Grifman]

Because we haven't been manipulating their governments quite shamelessly and overtly for years? We've earned a lot of ill will that way, and I bet it's easy for them to consider us scapegoats for lots of things wrong in the region right now.

Which Sudanese govt have we manipulated in the last 30 years or so?

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Yes they are SO common. When was the last one?

Don't know, actually. My point was simply that religious-themed violence is hardly unique to Islam.


That is the best you can come up with? Open your eyes. We have people blowing themselves up in the name of islam weekly? People getting their heads sawed off on camera occasionally. Malls and other public places packed with innocents targeted all the time. Thousands lobbying for the EXECUTION of a teacher who named a stuffed animal after a religious figure?

Yes, we have those things. We also have millions of Muslims who live perfectly normal, non-violent lives. Your gross oversimplification of the issue to a simple "BURN ISLAM" is utterly useless from a political, religious, and moral stance.


And your counter is abortion clinic bombings? Yes clearly radical christians are the exact same as radical islamics.

Actually, yeah. Radical, violent religious fundamentalists are pretty much the same no matter what their professed creed is. And I'm perfectly willing to admit that there may be more radical violent religious fundamentalists that profess some variety of Islam than other creeds at this point in history, but that still doesn't make your bigotry justified. Correlation still doesn't equal causation.

Anyway, I'm done. I've spent far too much time responding to your utterly predictable bigoted trolling.

[playingwithknives]

Uh, which Christians are those?

Never been to a Celtic v Rangers match then.

[jpinard]

Wow. Unbelievably ill-informed. Saudi Arabia is extremely rich--and its wealth is almost entirely concentrated in the hands of the ruling class, leaving the vast majority of its population oppressed and impoverished. It's actually probably the best example of despotic Middle East governments being to blame for terrorism, etc, rather than Islam. GG.

I would actually love more information on this. I'm not disputing you, just I'd heard they took good care of Arab citizens and the immigrants (of which there's over 6 million) are dirt-poor and do the bulk of the work there.

[SlyFrog]

I would actually love more information on this. I'm not disputing you, just I'd heard they took good care of Arab citizens and the immigrants (of which there's over 6 million) are dirt-poor and do the bulk of the work there.

That is my understanding as well. The problem is, as I understand it, that there are thousands of people related to the royals who are so staggeringly, incredibly rich, that they still skew the class structure of the country so badly that animosity is great. Further, there is a big difference even then between the urban middle class and the rural areas, which is effectively still tribal.

There was a huge welfare system, free education, free hospital care, etc., but much of that was scaled back in the 90s, when oil prices were lower and the kingdom felt the pinch.

As it stands, it has been described to me as being akin to having enough oil money handed to you to live a relatively comfortable, lower-middle class life, while seeing thousands of cousins of the king and princes roll around in ferraris with money so staggering you can't imagine it. Knowing that the oil wealth belongs to the people, and being handed a tiny sum of it while the royal family lives in opulence and basically burns the money in pleasuredomes would probably grow irritating after awhile, let alone if you were a tribesman out in the desert dealing with seeing that (when you did see it).

[BennyProfane]

Teacher pardoned and released.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3944627

I would assume she will have to leave the country, to avoid some nutjob killing her on the street in the name of his personal version of his religion.

[Marcus]

One would assume that after going through something like this any normal person would leave anyway.

[Squirrel Killer]

Never been to a Celtic v Rangers match then.
Huh? They don't even play the same sport. Although basketball with hockey sticks is a brand of violence I'd love to see, we can call it Laimbeerball.

[playingwithknives]

Huh? They don't even play the same sport. Although basketball with hockey sticks is a brand of violence I'd love to see, we can call it Laimbeerball.

Sounds more like Calvinball.

Um, it's football, and Celtic Vs Rangers in Glasgow and refers to one of the more public aspects of Protestant vs Catholic antagonism in the UK outside of N. Ireland.

[Tankero]

You mean... soccer?

[Squirrel Killer]

Um, it's football, and Celtic Vs Rangers in Glasgow and refers to one of the more public aspects of Protestant vs Catholic antagonism in the UK outside of N. Ireland.
Whoosh.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

If she was never charged, never tried, held in a remote prison indefinitely, and there were hundreds of people in the same situation...