Gothic 2

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Gogamer is shipping the UK version next Monday for those interested. :D I preordered today @$43 including 2 day Fedex.

[Idar Thorvaldsen]

Gogamer is shipping the UK version next Monday for those interested. :D I preordered today @$43 including 2 day Fedex.

OMG OMG OMG. OMG. I need money, like, now. Seen any reviews in english?

[Denice Cook]

Cool! I'm there!

[mtkafka]

Wasn;t this game released in Germany last year? Such a long delay.

etc

[Jonathan Blow]

Wasn;t this game released in Germany last year? Such a long delay.

etc

Yeah, it came out last Christmas in Germany. The USA release date was supposed to be late January, or early February, and then it kept slipping.

My guess is that they had initially targeted a low-budget translation with production value to be desired, but then when they saw how well the game did in Germany (it did do well right?) they decided to regroup and do a more thorough job. That is 100% speculation on my part though, I don't actually know anything real.

[Gaming-Module]

Well, Atari is a French company and Jowood and Pirahna Bytes are German companies. Maybe they ousted management, sent the companies into wartime operations and invaded the Atari offices, thus forcing the poor French Atari executives to publish the big bad German game - at their own expense and with minimal resistance. :lol:

[Xemu]

Holy crap! Really? I've been drooling over Gothic 2, since, well Gothic 1. As long as they don't replicate the "no really we are freaking terminally insane" no-mouse interface, this game looks fan-freaking-tastic.

Woohoo!

[Jack]

From what I've read, the developer has re-worked the controls of Gothic so that they don't need to be operated by insane concert pianists.

[Sam Jones]

HOG ALERT!

I got this game yesterday, and played for a couple of hours last night.

Firstly, let me say it's a great game, and I've been looking forward to it for ages. However, my PC is not what you'd call bleeding edge technology. Bleeding to death maybe. My PC is an AMD Tbird 750, 384mb RAM, GF3Ti200, SB Live. I have just been to PC World to buy a 256mb DIMM to swap out with one of the existing 128mb chips to bring me to a total of 512mb.

This game is an absolute monster for resources, possibly even more so than Morrowind. I played Gothic 1 on this PC and had no problems at all with everything maxed out at 1024*768*32. G2 though, chugs like anything. I spent most of last nights session trying to find that sweet spot between beauty and achieving frames per second rather than seconds per frame.

Some observations - Some have said that screen resolution is not important in G2, but for some reason I have found that running in 1024*768 gives me smoother performance than in 800*600. I have the viewing distance set to 100% (max is 300% - stupid way of labelling it IMHO) which is low and brings the Fogging fairly close to the player.

Music is nice, but is also a resource hog, so I've had to switch it off. The difference is very noticable. You can recover quite a few FPS in G2 just by turning the music off.

The box lists the following specs as the minimum:

Win98/2k/XP
256mb RAM (512 recommended for XP in the readme)
32mb DirectX 8 gfx card
P3 700mhz processor (1.2ghz for systems without a T&L gfx card)
2.2gb HDD space
DirectX soundcard

So, pretty high min specs, and unlike a lot of other games, this one *means* it.

I hope that extra 128mb RAM helps loosen things up a bit!!

[Sam Jones]

Holy crap! Really? I've been drooling over Gothic 2, since, well Gothic 1. As long as they don't replicate the "no really we are freaking terminally insane" no-mouse interface, this game looks fan-freaking-tastic.

Woohoo!

The Gothic 1 controls are active by default, but there's an alternative system you can select. Couldn't tell you what it's like yet, because I must be the only person who actually liked the Gothic controls, so I've left them active!

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

HOG ALERT!

I got this game yesterday, and played for a couple of hours last night.

Firstly, let me say it's a great game, and I've been looking forward to it for ages. However, my PC is not what you'd call bleeding edge technology. Bleeding to death maybe. My PC is an AMD Tbird 750, 384mb RAM, GF3Ti200, SB Live. I have just been to PC World to buy a 256mb DIMM to swap out with one of the existing 128mb chips to bring me to a total of 512mb.

This game is an absolute monster for resources, possibly even more so than Morrowind. I played Gothic 1 on this PC and had no problems at all with everything maxed out at 1024*768*32. G2 though, chugs like anything. I spent most of last nights session trying to find that sweet spot between beauty and achieving frames per second rather than seconds per frame.

Some observations - Some have said that screen resolution is not important in G2, but for some reason I have found that running in 1024*768 gives me smoother performance than in 800*600. I have the viewing distance set to 100% (max is 300% - stupid way of labelling it IMHO) which is low and brings the Fogging fairly close to the player.

Music is nice, but is also a resource hog, so I've had to switch it off. The difference is very noticable. You can recover quite a few FPS in G2 just by turning the music off.

The box lists the following specs as the minimum:

Win98/2k/XP
256mb RAM (512 recommended for XP in the readme)
32mb DirectX 8 gfx card
P3 700mhz processor (1.2ghz for systems without a T&L gfx card)
2.2gb HDD space
DirectX soundcard

So, pretty high min specs, and unlike a lot of other games, this one *means* it.

I hope that extra 128mb RAM helps loosen things up a bit!!


Crap, I ordered in reliance on the following specs at the Gogamer site:

System Requirements : Windows 95/98/ME/2000/XP, Pentium II 450, 128MB RAM, 32MB 3D DirectX 8.0 compatible video card, DirectX compatible sound card, 8X CDROM, Keyboard, Mouse :cry:


I have a PIII 600 only!!

Lucy, you got some splaining to do.......... :!:

[Reed]

Here's the only english review of it so far I believe: http://www.evilavatar.com/redirected.asp?fromurl=http%3A//www.evilavatar.com/EA/News/M43031/

And here's the German demo:
http://www.3dgamers.com/dl/games/gothic2/gothic2-demogerman.exe.html

[olaf]

I will probably try this at some point, since there just arent enough PC RPGs to satisfy, but I have to say the first one was not great and gets a ton of jocking from fanboys that I just cant understand.

The graphics were above par at the time. Nice looking world, good animations, decent variety in the way opponents looked (even though there werent many). The gameplay was very cool for the first half of it. Exploring the prison world, learning about the three camps, joining a camp...but then after you join one you get thrown onto the railroad track. No matter which camp you joined, the game progressed the same. I got the feeling they ran out of money 1/2 way thru the development or even lost some people 1/2 way thru. It irked me that people got so horny over NPCs with 'schedules', but would fail to note this night and day transition in gameplay as a bad thing, or even acknowledge it at all.

That and the control scheme annoyed the hell out of me. In theory the controls sound ok, but in practice, the one button for everything approach didnt work so hot for me.

olaf

[Jonathan Blow]

The graphics were above par at the time. Nice looking world, good animations, decent variety in the way opponents looked (even though there werent many). The gameplay was very cool for the first half of it. Exploring the prison world, learning about the three camps, joining a camp...but then after you join one you get thrown onto the railroad track. No matter which camp you joined, the game progressed the same. I got the feeling they ran out of money 1/2 way thru the development or even lost some people 1/2 way thru. It irked me that people got so horny over NPCs with 'schedules', but would fail to note this night and day transition in gameplay as a bad thing, or even acknowledge it at all.


Nonlinearity and freedom are really hard to accomplish. Gothic did it way better than any other game, I think. Because we don't have the technical ability to do nonlinearity, they could only go so far, and had to linearize at some point. But that's not their fault -- the same way it's not Warren Spector's fault that Deus Ex had to be architected as a series of linear choke-points. They took on something that is very difficult, and did a good job of it, and it was refreshing.

The other thing about Gothic was the way the world felt alive. The first time you walk into the Old Camp and see all the people walking around talking to each other, getting mad if you invade their private personal space, etc, it just felt good.

Gothic ruined Morrowind for me -- my reaction to Morrowind was "what the hell is this crap?" and I gave up on it after about 6 hours. Morrowind was a big empty world, with ridiculous combat, and I was supposed to get excited over a "city" that has like 8 people in it, 4 of whom are guards who stand rigid in one spot and have nothing but generic stuff they spew at you when you go talk to them? And the frequency with which the game had to load... jeeezus.

[NuclearWinter]

This game is an absolute monster for resources, possibly even more so than Morrowind.

Having completed the german version several months ago I can confirm this. I don't think I've ever played any other game that caused as much HDD thrashing as Gothic 2 did with 256MB RAM. I upgraded from 256 to 512MB and suddenly the game became smooth as silk, so it seems like a RAM eating monster.

[Sam Jones]

This game is an absolute monster for resources, possibly even more so than Morrowind.

Having completed the german version several months ago I can confirm this. I don't think I've ever played any other game that caused as much HDD thrashing as Gothic 2 did with 256MB RAM. I upgraded from 256 to 512MB and suddenly the game became smooth as silk, so it seems like a RAM eating monster.

Did you try the NoCD crack on the German version? That sometimes recovers a few FPS on games with some foul protection systems. Still waiting for the crack for the English .exe.

[Gaming-Module]

If I buy the UK version from Gogamer, will I be missing anything?

I mean, I don't want to buy the UK version only to have the US version come out with more items, different voice acting and other added goodies.

Can anyone address these fears, as I am a hopeless Gothic fanboy in need of a fix since last January.

[Sam Jones]

If I buy the UK version from Gogamer, will I be missing anything?

I mean, I don't want to buy the UK version only to have the US version come out with more items, different voice acting and other added goodies.

Can anyone address these fears, as I am a hopeless Gothic fanboy in need of a fix since last January.


It's likely to be the same version. They didn't add anything to the UK release over the original German version, so we'll all just have to wait for the expansion. The English voice acting is predominantly American accents.

[Incendiary Lemon]

Is the voice acting as bad as it was in Gothic 1?

From playing the german version - base cpu is debatable but you do need at least 512 ram.

[NuclearWinter]

Did you try the NoCD crack on the German version?

Yup, I tried the crack as well as updating the game with the official patches as they came out - none of them made any noticable difference for me. General consensus is that the more RAM you have for Gothic 2 the better.

[JD]

Don't know about the voice acting in the English version. They hired US actors again, but recorded in a different (UK) studio this time, so it's not likely to be the same people again. As for NoCD cracks, the first patch for the game pretty much addressed any loading time issues caused by the CP and minimized the start-up times. The HD accesses during the game are caused by the game loading data whenever needed, keep in mind that you can get basically everywhere without seeing a loading screen (only when entering the mines and the last chapter). A great game, I'm looking forward to the upcoming add-on and Gothic III now.

[NuclearWinter]

The HD accesses during the game are caused by the game loading data whenever needed

Yep, that's exactly it. And I'm not complaining or anything, just noting that the game really needs a good amount of RAM.

I too really enjoyed the game and am now waiting impatiently for the sequel and addon :)

[Sam Jones]

Increasing my RAM from 384 to 512mb has made a significant difference to the game for me (with a 750mhz CPU). It's still slow in the city, but it's not stuttering anymore, and the voices are no longer skipping and crackling. Outside the city is fine, and FPS return to "normal".

[Jonathan Blow]

So I just looked at ebworld.com for an American ship date for Gothic 2 and they have it listed as ... October 7? Is that accurate? Why would they have such a huge gulf between Brit and American releases? Are they just timing it to pick up the Christmas cash or what?

[Gaming-Module]

So I just looked at ebworld.com for an American ship date for Gothic 2 and they have it listed as ... October 7? Is that accurate? Why would they have such a huge gulf between Brit and American releases? Are they just timing it to pick up the Christmas cash or what?

This is ultimately what is keeping me from buying the UK version. I don't want to miss out on anything. I'm just curious as to what the differences will be and if things are added to the US version will they be added to the UK version via a patch.

Questions, questions. C'mon. You people are the cream of the gaming industry. Share your inside knowledge! :D

[chumpface]

Most likely reason was delays in obtaining a US publisher/distributor.

[JD]

Yes, October is the correct US release date. As for the content, that's what Piranha's Mike Hoge said:


Q: Are there any differences between the US, UK and the German versions?

MH: Nope.



source (http://evilavatar.com/EA/Interviews/Preview/M44540/)

[Xemu]

That ridiculous decision (to hold on to it until Oct) has cost the US publisher my dollars... ordered from gogamer over the weekend, even though I'd have preferred to pay an actual store.

[Brian Koontz]

That ridiculous decision (to hold on to it until Oct) has cost the US publisher my dollars... ordered from gogamer over the weekend, even though I'd have preferred to pay an actual store.

Why's that?

[Gladguy]

That ridiculous decision (to hold on to it until Oct) has cost the US publisher my dollars... ordered from gogamer over the weekend, even though I'd have preferred to pay an actual store.
That rediculous decision was not necessarily the US publisher's...

[Xemu]

In general I enjoy the physicality of actually buying the box in the store. I dunno, something about it is just fun. Also usually it's faster instant gratification. :-)

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

In general I enjoy the physicality of actually buying the box in the store. I dunno, something about it is just fun. Also usually it's faster instant gratification. :-)

I got their shipping comfirmation today,so we should get that gratification pretty soon :)

[Sam Jones]

Good grief, this game is keeping me up to ungodly hours of the morning. Certainly past QT3. This is probably the most immersive CRPG I've ever played. Piranha Bytes are the new Black Isle.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Got it today,so far so good as far as being playable on my P3III600 but I'm not to the first town yet.

Initial Loading time is very long but saves seem OK.

I actually was late to the party for Gothic 1 so I only finished it two months ago :D Seems like I haven't been away at all, the game plays, looks and sounds pretty much the same, except some things like the herbs seem much harder to see for some reason.

I haven't tried the new controls out but do like the one button action command much better.

[Bill Dungsroman]

rediculous

Sob.

[Peter Olafson]

That ridiculous decision (to hold on to it until Oct) has cost the US publisher my dollars... ordered from gogamer over the weekend, even though I'd have preferred to pay an actual store.

If you buy it, Infogrames will get your money either way. (It is also the UK publisher.)

Peter

[mtkafka]

It's absolutely Goth. YEAH!

etc

[Gaming-Module]

Am I the only one with the UK version suffering from horribly choppy video performance when playing the in game movies.

The movies that play at start with the company logos freeze up and then abrubtly send me to the main game screen. The game intro movie skips, jumps and even suffers from stuttering music and dialogue.

To give you a better picture of what is happening, it is like I am playing this thing on my first gen PS1 with the weakass optical disc reader that would take a shit on your after 9-12 months of use (I'm sure many of you remember your first PS1 having to be turned on it's side of upside down).

Please help, I have been waiting a couple years for this game. I do not deserve to be shit on like this after all this time. :(

[Xaroc]

Am I the only one with the UK version suffering from horribly choppy video performance when playing the in game movies.

The movies that play at start with the company logos freeze up and then abrubtly send me to the main game screen. The game intro movie skips, jumps and even suffers from stuttering music and dialogue.

To give you a better picture of what is happening, it is like I am playing this thing on my first gen PS1 with the weakass optical disc reader that would take a shit on your after 9-12 months of use (I'm sure many of you remember your first PS1 having to be turned on it's side of upside down).

Please help, I have been waiting a couple years for this game. I do not deserve to be shit on like this after all this time. :(

Sounds like a codec problem although I am not sure how to fix it. Some installs of will hose up previously installed codecs. Try a google search maybe.

-- Xaroc

[JD]

GM, I recall reading in the official JoWood forums that the AA setting of one's GFX card can screw up the videos, so try turning AA off and check if that helps it.

[Gladguy]

rediculous

Sob.
Ouch. My humblest and most sincere appy-polly-loggies.

I hate making spelling misteaks.

[olaf]

They did a pretty shit job of QA on this one, for the UK version anyway. There are numerous journal entries in German so far in my game, and I am in Chapter 1 still. Maybe that is what is gonna take them until October to fix for the US version.

olaf

[Sam Jones]

They did a pretty shit job of QA on this one, for the UK version anyway. There are numerous journal entries in German so far in my game, and I am in Chapter 1 still. Maybe that is what is gonna take them until October to fix for the US version.

olaf

Don't expect a patch. Despite being a great game, Gothic 1 was flawed in a lot of ways. Broken scripts, quests, items, any of which could have screwed your game, and were legacy from the German version. They issued one patch - to fix an egregious incompatibility with GeForce 3 cards. That's all it did.

Now they're working on the expansion for G2 and Gothic 3, so there'll be no time for patching something they finished last year. If we're lucky we'll get a fan made patch. Perhaps I'm wrong, and the distribution gig that Jowood got with Info*cough*Atari*cough*grames also included support clauses, but don't get your hopes up.

[JD]

There's another review up at Gamershell now: http://www.gamershell.com/reviews_Gothic2Review.shtml 9.2

[olaf]

There is a dev who is pretty active on the Jowood forums and the rpgdot forums. But yeah, it doesnt seem likely that there will be tons of official support. I would be stunned if there never was an official patch though.

The worst part though, the journal is stored in your saves...so even if they do fix it, you are almost certainly going to have to start a new game to read all the text.

There is some kind of disappearing item bug too, like shit in your inventory poofs. Err.

olaf

[Xemu]

Welp, my UK import copy arrived over the weekend.

Oy.

Font rendering problems and frequent CTDs have me putting this one back on the shelves until a patch, I think. I can see why they're holding onto this one for a US release later if it's to fix the problems. I haven't even encountered the bugs mentioned above.

Most annoying small problem: It won't let me remap the "Z" key for movement, even though it isn't mapped to anything else. It just thinks it is the "Y" key for all intents and purposes.

Most bat-shit insane design decision: Still no mouse support in any UI screen. WTF?!? The best of all is that if you've mapped the movement keys away from the arrow keys, you have to use THOSE to navigate the in-game menus (but not the metagame menus). And while you have to use the keyboard to navigate the inventory boxes, you have to use the left mouse button to select an object. I say again, WTF?!?

Ah, poor Gothic 2... I had such high hopes... what can I say, I'm a sucker for an immersive first person RPG, if only I could find one that wasn't insane. If only someone would do a game as good as Ultima Underworld again... sigh, I guess the bar set OVER TEN FREAKING YEARS AGO is still too high.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Welp, my UK import copy arrived over the weekend.

Oy.

Font rendering problems and frequent CTDs have me putting this one back on the shelves until a patch, I think. I can see why they're holding onto this one for a US release later if it's to fix the problems. I haven't even encountered the bugs mentioned above.

Most annoying small problem: It won't let me remap the "Z" key for movement, even though it isn't mapped to anything else. It just thinks it is the "Y" key for all intents and purposes.

Most bat-shit insane design decision: Still no mouse support in any UI screen. WTF?!? The best of all is that if you've mapped the movement keys away from the arrow keys, you have to use THOSE to navigate the in-game menus (but not the metagame menus). And while you have to use the keyboard to navigate the inventory boxes, you have to use the left mouse button to select an object. I say again, WTF?!?

Ah, poor Gothic 2... I had such high hopes... what can I say, I'm a sucker for an immersive first person RPG, if only I could find one that wasn't insane. If only someone would do a game as good as Ultima Underworld again... sigh, I guess the bar set OVER TEN FREAKING YEARS AGO is still too high.


I haven't had any crashes yet at all(fingers crossed)

BTW, there is a workaround for the z mapping problem at the Jowood Gothic 2 tech forum,apparently caused by reprogramming from German to US/UK keyboards.

[Jonathan Blow]

Ah, poor Gothic 2... I had such high hopes... what can I say, I'm a sucker for an immersive first person RPG, if only I could find one that wasn't insane. If only someone would do a game as good as Ultima Underworld again... sigh, I guess the bar set OVER TEN FREAKING YEARS AGO is still too high.

Luckily I guess, the game has run flawlessly for me. I am really enjoying it.

The "keyboard-only UI screens" is maybe not the best design decision in all of history, but after about the first 10 seconds you get totally used to it. The interface is altogether better than Gothic 1; it's really intuitive most of the time.

Ultima Underworld was a good game but I think you have a case of "ahh the good old days" going on here.

If I have any complaints about Gothic 2, it's that I wish they would have upgraded the core technology before. It's basically the same engine as 1, with a bunch of minor improvements. Still though, the game is very good.

[xahlt]

I've had it crash a few times, especially when trying to do a repetitive action (like forging) too quickly -- sometimes the game will just continue on but your key strokes don't do anything.

The interface is still awful, but much better than Gothic 1. Although I can't remember how many times I've tried to load a saved game and accidentally hit New Game and had to sit through load screens, movies, and escaping dialogue with Xardas. Mmm, yeah, I really only need that New Game button once or twice total guys, maybe you could move it farther away.

Voice actors are the same as the first, except they seem to be missing the guy who did Diego's voice, so they seem even more limited.

I'd say it's very much like Gothic 1 - slightly improved, slightly more open-ended (although you are still railed at some point).

[Gaming-Module]

Voice actors are the same as the first, except they seem to be missing the guy who did Diego's voice, so they seem even more limited.


Ugh, please tell me you're kidding. The voice of Diego in Gothic 1 was really, really good.

Did they at least get a reasonable fascimile?

[Doug Erickson]

I'm really enjoying Gothic 2. The interface was never THAT cumbersome for me, and I appreciate the new universal action button. Combat is still a pretty wonky business, although the hit detection seems to be a LOT better. It beats Morrowind's stentorian hit-step-hit-step business, and there are some crazy combos fighter types can get access to.

Yeah, it would be nice to have a mousing interface for menus and inventory, but so far the tab+arrow affair hasn't been an obstacle. I really dig the wide variety of ways you can play this game, and the very open-ended yet still structured feel. The departure from Xardas' keep is a brilliant piece of gameplay pacing - lots of easy critters and plentiful healing items, but you still hafta be careful, because there's ubercritters lurking around, too. They're well-telegraphed, and you have every opportunity to escape, but the game also supports total grognards like me figuring ways to bring these beasts down for massive experience and loot. I ran into some giant bug-thing in the cave "shortcut" before meeting up with Leonard, and I managed to strafe it, weaving in and out of some root obstacles taking potshots until it finally fell. Reminds me of the old Bard's Tale games where you'd wander into a dungeon well out of your level, and through some clever (and very lucky) system abuse, you wound up winning an encounter and walking off with some phat loot and experience. RPG gaming needs more unrailed moments like that - access to "high-level" dungeons and enemies where you say "alright, I can't wait until I can tackle these bastards."

Like someone said, this is the game Ultima 9 WANTED to be. Glitchy bits and draw-in artifacts aside, it's an excellent RPG experience.

[Quaro]

I really liked Gothics controls. After awhile, it really wasn't a negative feature at all.

The voice acting though, was truely horrible in Gothic. I'm glad they went bonzo and did voices everywhere, but the cringeworthiness was off the charts in parts.

[Doug Erickson]

I think you can turn off the voices? I need to check that. The music is well-done and appropriate, at least.

[chumpface]

I love the very small-ness of the game, and that each area you encounter feels unique, custom and open-ended. I must disagree with colleague Xemu, as I think I've had moments in Gothic 2 which compared favorably to Underworld. Nothing beats getting a bunch of monsters all riled up and then drawing them back to a populated area and watching your fellow humans join the fray!

Doug makes some excellent points about encountering high level guys early. Instead of putting in artificial blockers, they segment them into geographic areas which you are free to roam into. The coolest moment was coming across the graveyard with the Zombies and skeletons roaming around. The environment also is the most realistic expression of wilderness terrain I've ever seen in a game. It feels extremely organic, as if the monsters found places to lair in the world instead of the world being designed for effective monster lairing.

[xahlt]

Voice actors are the same as the first, except they seem to be missing the guy who did Diego's voice, so they seem even more limited.


Ugh, please tell me you're kidding. The voice of Diego in Gothic 1 was really, really good.

Did they at least get a reasonable fascimile?

No, sorry -- you'll recognize Diego's new voice as a crotchety prospector guy type who does other voices in Gothic 1/2, although I can't remember what specific characters -- honestly, I tried to block it out to get a semblance of diversity.

[Xemu]

OK, I spent another few hours with it tonight, and I'm starting to come around. The fact that the crash density has dropped down dramatically helps... maybe the fact that I'm not tweaking with gfx configs all the time is helping it retain stability who knows.

Their interface is still crazy, but once you get past that I am seeing more of the cool things about it.

[Gaming-Module]

Voice actors are the same as the first, except they seem to be missing the guy who did Diego's voice, so they seem even more limited.


Ugh, please tell me you're kidding. The voice of Diego in Gothic 1 was really, really good.

Did they at least get a reasonable fascimile?

No, sorry -- you'll recognize Diego's new voice as a crotchety prospector guy type who does other voices in Gothic 1/2, although I can't remember what specific characters -- honestly, I tried to block it out to get a semblance of diversity.

How in the fuck could they do that to the coolest NPC in the first game???

I just don't get it.

[Sam Jones]

OK, I spent another few hours with it tonight, and I'm starting to come around.........Their interface is still crazy, but once you get past that I am seeing more of the cool things about it.

This is definitely a CRPG to spend a lot of time in. Not as much as, say, Baldurs Gate 2, but I've already dumped 42 hrs (about to start Chap 4) into Gothic 2 and I'm still having as much fun as when I killed the first monster. They've packed an amazing amount of life and character into the game, it seems totally opposed from Morrowinds template NPC approach. I like the open endedness of MW, but I think I prefer a lovingly crafted world like Gothic.

I decided to take the Fire Mage route this time, as I always seem to play fighters. It's harder to start with, but I have picked up a few very nasty spells (Circle 3 - Ice Block and Circle 4 - Lightning). Ice Block in particular is devastating - 60pts immediate damage, 20 secs or so Hold Person plus 2 damage per second while held. Ouch.

One tip that those unfamiliar with Gothic 1 may find useful - do as many of the entry qualification quests for each of the three camps as you can, then make a "Choose Your Fate" save where you're ready to join any of them. Makes it easier to go back and see what you missed. My CYF save in G2 is in chapter 1, at about 17hrs in with a level 10 char. It's well worth doing.

[olaf]

The combat controls are fine until you are confronted by multiple opponents. Then I find it artificially difficult because its hard to reliably choose the target you want.

Mild early-spoilers below:





Has anyone take the Alchemist apprenticeship? What does he do for you? Like the smith teaches you to make swords and then will buy them from you at full price, the bow guy buys skins for full price, etc. The smith is a much better choice than the bow guy, IMO. The sword you can make is decent, and the cash from the swords rocks.

I meant to make one of those saves you are talking about...but I fucked it up and somehow saved it after taking the Bow maker apprentice, although I did have one save where I took the smiths route. I am debating whether or not to start over and try and make a better one.

Also, what quests did you do up until your save? Any of the Thieves Guild stuff?

[xahlt]

I think Sam Jones is talking about the "camps", not the apprentice positions-- I'm pretty sure you can apprentice without doing anything other than cutting off the other apprentice jobs.

VERY SLIGHT "CAMP" SPOILERS: (highlight for help)

There are 3 camps, just like Gothic 1 -- the militia/Paladins in Khorinis, the mercenaries camp at Olaf's Farm, and the Fire Mages at the Monastery. You can do a number of small quests for each camp that will be cut-off if you join one camp. Just make sure that you realize joining the militia is the "Paladin's" path and will restrict you from joining the other camps.

You can join the Thieves Guild at any time, in addition to whichever main camp you joined.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

My session last night was great, I love the great variety of quests, hunting,solving crimes, finding items, just helping out someone who gets attacked, drinking contests etc. I'm only at level 3 and I must have about 8 quests done and 8 more on the list and I'm still in the city.Much more quests than the first game, imo. I've also found four caves.....

Some questions: I've gotten several "I don't have the right key" messages when trying to open doors and chests but found no keys except one at Xardas'. Are there actually keys to be found or is it just telling me my lockpick skill is too low??? Also, anyone else find the combat much faster than Gothic or does it only seem slow because my PC is a little slow for this game?

[xahlt]

You really don't have the right key, and you'll never be able to lock-pick the doors open. However, there should be a key somewhere in the game for those doors -- truly unopenable doors will say "that door will never open".

I doubt this is much of a spoiler, but just in case -- if you're going through the game and never really finding any of these keys, highlight this help:

Many keys can only be gained by pickpocketing an important NPC; killing them and trying to take their inventory will not yield a key when pickpocketing will. Plus pickpocketing is a nice source of income and cheap experience, so it's nice to pick up anyway.

[Sam Jones]

The combat controls are fine until you are confronted by multiple opponents. Then I find it artificially difficult because its hard to reliably choose the target you want.

When attacked, hold down the left mouse button - this locks your target and will rotate your view to match. Combat then is just swinging left/right/ahead/block. If you're out of melee range of the target you've locked, keeping the LMB held down and hitting strafe left/right will rotate the available targets in your field of view. You should concentrate on one enemy at a time when attacked by many, or you'll get minced.


Mild early-spoilers below:


























Has anyone take the Alchemist apprenticeship? What does he do for you? Like the smith teaches you to make swords and then will buy them from you at full price, the bow guy buys skins for full price, etc. The smith is a much better choice than the bow guy, IMO. The sword you can make is decent, and the cash from the swords rocks.

Contantinou the alchemist will teach you healing/mana potions. Later on he will also teach the permanent stat increase potions. He also buys mushrooms, both Dark and Digger Meat types for a premium.


I meant to make one of those saves you are talking about...but I fucked it up and somehow saved it after taking the Bow maker apprentice, although I did have one save where I took the smiths route. I am debating whether or not to start over and try and make a better one.

Also, what quests did you do up until your save? Any of the Thieves Guild stuff?

You can take an apprenticeship - I was suggesting you do all the missions for each faction up to the point where they'll let you in. When you take an apprenticeship with a master, you're not committing youself to the militia/paladins. Also, I did join the Thieves Guild. I did the initiation (constantinous ring) and got the Blood Chalice quest, which I only finished last night.

In any case, I am enjoying myself so much I may well abandon my Choose Your Fate save and start again right from the beginning (after I finish this time).

[Brian Koontz]

I've put maybe 6 hours into this game so far and its working well at curing the "RPG withdrawal pains" I've been experiencing, since the last non-MMOG RPG I've played is Morrowind.

Speaking of that, Gothic 2 is shaping up to be Morrowind done right. It lacks the graphical excellence, but the game world is much more engaging. Its far denser than Morrowind... there's always something interesting right up ahead as opposed to Morrowind where there's often something semi-interesting 200 yards ahead.

MUCH more creativity has gone into the NPCs in G2 than Morrowind. There are still generic Guard and Citizen models, but many characters have unique aspects. The diversity of these unique aspects far outstrips those in Morrowind. I love the differential in laws depending on whether I am in the Harbor district or the Lower district. This compares nicely to Morrowind's "one size fits all" mentality.

Gothic 2 has a much more logical and interrelated world. One guy is hurt by some bandits, and he tells you to talk to another guy that chased the bandits. And then you go find the bandits. You get the idea that these people have real social relationships to each other. In Morrowind two people might have been "guild allies" but everything felt meaningless and disassociated.

The density of interest awakens the imagination, something that was lacking in Morrowind. I keep being told about an Orc outside the city, but I'm doing the inner-city quests before going out there. I find fear building in me as I keep being told about the dread Orcs. I press the "C" button and shiver in terror as I realize my meager skills will likely be no match. I'm also worried about having to fight against the possible incoming Orc Horde. All of this "imaginative" reality is added to the city experiences!

The interface is weak. I'm reminded of the nightmare interface that killed Soulbringer. The manual tells about a First Person viewpoint which might help (damn funky camera) but the button to switch to that does nothing.

Its looking like this is the best RPG since Baldur's Gate 2.

[Sam Jones]

The interface is weak. I'm reminded of the nightmare interface that killed Soulbringer. The manual tells about a First Person viewpoint which might help (damn funky camera) but the button to switch to that does nothing.

Hit the F key. It does work, but the FP mode sucks a bit.

Its looking like this is the best RPG since Baldur's Gate 2.

I agree. It's a cut above anything that's been released since. Piranha Bytes are very talented. Such a shame that they've had so many problems with shitty publishers.

[olaf]

When attacked, hold down the left mouse button - this locks your target and will rotate your view to match. Combat then is just swinging left/right/ahead/block. If you're out of melee range of the target you've locked, keeping the LMB held down and hitting strafe left/right will rotate the available targets in your field of view. You should concentrate on one enemy at a time when attacked by many, or you'll get minced.

I get the locked target stuff and have no problems switching targets outside of melee range. My problem is changing targets when in melee combat. Like say I am fighting 3 goblins, when they close in on me, I want to move around so as to not get the shit beaten out of me. Well, to move around you have to release your locked target. Getting back the one you were targeting when you want to re-engage is not easy, at least not for me.


Contantinou the alchemist will teach you healing/mana potions. Later on he will also teach the permanent stat increase potions. He also buys mushrooms, both Dark and Digger Meat types for a premium.

OK he will teach you alchemy whether or not you are his apprentice, you just have to know a little alchemy first if you are not his apprentice. What I wanted to know was what he provided to you that was unique to being his apprentice, like Harad teaching you to forge and then buying your forged blades, Bosper paying full price for skins, etc. I guess its the paying of full price for the mushrooms. When I asked, I was wondering if he might pay full price for all reagents.



olaf

[Sam Jones]

Like say I am fighting 3 goblins, when they close in on me, I want to move around so as to not get the shit beaten out of me.

Your problem is that you're not hard enough to take on three goblins. In Gothic, Armour Is King, which is why it is so rare and difficult to come by (a good thing, IMO. Fallout was this way). Your ability to take on mulitple opponents is determined by your armour protection and hitpoint level. If you've only just started, you're too fragile to deal with more than one enemy at a time. Yes, even goblins, young wolves, giant rats etc.


OK he will teach you alchemy whether or not you are his apprentice, you just have to know a little alchemy first if you are not his apprentice. What I wanted to know was what he provided to you that was unique to being his apprentice, like Harad teaching you to forge and then buying your forged blades, Bosper paying full price for skins, etc.

Fair enough. Spoilers:
























You get a dialogue option when you bring him mushrooms. He prizes Dark Mushrooms very highly and you can ask him why, but he won't tell you until Chapter 3 or you've brought him enough (I can't tell which). Eventually he tells you that if you eat enough of them, you get a permanent Mana increase. You need to eat 50 and you get +10 mana, I believe.

Also, he can teach you to make the permanent stat potions. I think he may be unique in this regard.

[Doug Erickson]

Your ability to take on mulitple opponents is determined by your armour protection and hitpoint level. If you've only just started, you're too fragile to deal with more than one enemy at a time. Yes, even goblins, young wolves, giant rats

I dunno, maybe it's just my experience with the previous title, or my loads of console gaming experience, but I can take down a knot of 3/4 goblins with just my dagger and no/weak armor, and I killed that big bug bastard in the cave shortcut with just my purportedly mad skillz0rz. Really, circle strafing and rhythmic blocking/backstepping makes groups fairly easy to tackle, unless they completely circle you (or clip on top of you, ech).

[Gaming-Module]

Sam could you tell me how to get Constantino's ring? I have robbed his house and talked to him several times. Do I need more dexterity (does dexterity improve the perfomance of my thieving skills?)

Oh and, fuck I've been eating those little mushrooms on and off to restore health, hrm. Is it after eating 50 at any interval that you get the bonus or do you have to sit and chug them all down at once to get the bonus?

[Jonathan Blow]

Sam could you tell me how to get Constantino's ring? I have robbed his house and talked to him several times. Do I need more dexterity (does dexterity improve the perfomance of my thieving skills?)

Oh and, fuck I've been eating those little mushrooms on and off to restore health, hrm. Is it after eating 50 at any interval that you get the bonus or do you have to sit and chug them all down at once to get the bonus?

It's 50 (or whatever number) over the course of the game. Don't worry about it, I got my 10 mana without understanding wtf was going on, I had to reload the game like 5 times before I believed it was really from eating one little mushroom.

[Contrai]

Sam could you tell me how to get Constantino's ring? I have robbed his house and talked to him several times. Do I need more dexterity (does dexterity improve the perfomance of my thieving skills?)


Yes, dexterity does improve thieving skills. You don't even get the option to pickpocket certain people unless your dexterity is high enough and it also effects your chance to get away with pickpocking. Constantino's ring is in the chest or so I remember, try sneaking in at night and lockpicking it. You could also use the oblivion spell if he catches you in the act so he forgets that you robbed him.

[Sam Jones]

Sam could you tell me how to get Constantino's ring?

As Contrai noted, the easiest way to rob people effectively is to beat shit into them, take all their stuff, rob the house, then cast Oblivion (from a scroll) on them. NOTE:- Oblivion is useless if there are other witnesses.

A nice touch is that the guy who *sells* Oblivion scrolls is also vulnerable to this. I ran out, visited Ignoz, beat him and took his whole supply (10 scrolls) before casting it on him to sweeten him up again. He gets a new supply every chapter :)

[olaf]

Well I agree with you that low level characters are not very survivable vs. 2+ critters, but that wasnt my point. The game mechanics make it difficult to switch targets easily in melee range, that was my point.

For example, I take a few swings, then back out to manuever some, buying time for a couple more swipes. At this point its a crap shoot which target I am going to get, and if I get one other than the one I want, forget it you may as well go with that one because you dont have time to try and switch targets in close quarters when you are fighting stuff that can knock 1/4-1/3 of your health off with a good smack.

The other beef I have with the combat is not being able to parry/block non-weapon attacks.

olaf

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Is the pickpocket trainer in the harbor district bar??And, if so, any way of getting past Moe without fighting him? As in Gothic I, my lack of console combat skills makes human oppentents a absolute bear for me as opposed to beasts. I think the hardest fight in Gothic I was the damn water guy at the farm outside new camp, must have tried at least 50 times, and was almost level 20 before I won!

Went to the mercenaries camp last night, what a bunch of assholes :)

[Sam Jones]

Is the pickpocket trainer in the harbor district bar??And, if so, any way of getting past Moe without fighting him

While the pickpocket trainer is not in the bar herself, the initial quest that gets you on the path to the Thieves Guild is. There are some other criteria you need to meet to be able to begin the TG quests - if you don't meet them, you'll never get in (I think). The criteria relate to the way you may have handled instances of theft within the city - specifically the way you dealt with the thief(ves) when you caught them.

Moe is a pain in the arse and it was a bit naughty of PB to stick him there and make him so gnarly. He's reasonably dangerous for a bum, too. Just pay him for now, and kick his head in later. Getting bullied while low level is one of the cool things about Gothic.

[JD]

Dealing with Moe is pretty easy, you just need to know how. (I died as well a few times while trying to fight him.) Talk to him and as soon as he starts attacking you, run away to the upper part of the town. Stop once or twice so Moe doesn't quit chasing you. Once you see one of the guards let Moe attack you. The guards don't like people getting into fights, and if Moe attacks you without you battling him, the guards will club down Moe. They're not going to kill him. You can steal some of Moe's stuff (weapon etc.) while he's unconscious.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Is the pickpocket trainer in the harbor district bar??And, if so, any way of getting past Moe without fighting him

While the pickpocket trainer is not in the bar herself, the initial quest that gets you on the path to the Thieves Guild is. There are some other criteria you need to meet to be able to begin the TG quests - if you don't meet them, you'll never get in (I think). The criteria relate to the way you may have handled instances of theft within the city - specifically the way you dealt with the thief(ves) when you caught them.

Moe is a pain in the arse and it was a bit naughty of PB to stick him there and make him so gnarly. He's reasonably dangerous for a bum, too. Just pay him for now, and kick his head in later. Getting bullied while low level is one of the cool things about Gothic.




Oh, crap I've already turned in two guys for the bounty :cry: That's what I get for being honest (and needing the reward gold). Well, maybe I'll find another way to learn pickpocket, or I guess those doors will never get opened, unless there is a "open lock" spell, since I plan on going the mage route, but, IIRC, Gothic did not have one. Thanks.

[xahlt]

There should still be a way to get into the Thieves Guild after turning some of them in (bit of a spoiler - so highlight):

At a certain point, the bartender at the harbor pub will tell you that somebody wants to meet you behind the fish merchant's shop; he will be an assassin from the TG who attempts to kill you for being such a pain in their necks. He'll have a key on him that you can use to get into the TG and proceed from there.

[Sam Jones]

There should still be a way to get into the Thieves Guild after turning some of them in (bit of a spoiler - so highlight):

At a certain point, the bartender at the harbor pub will tell you that somebody wants to meet you behind the fish merchant's shop; he will be an assassin from the TG who attempts to kill you for being such a pain in their necks. He'll have a key on him that you can use to get into the TG and proceed from there.

Coloured spoiler text:

Yes, Attile. He's the one that gives you the key when you join the guild. So it's the same quest with two sides :) It makes no difference to me. I still ripped off the Thieves Guild. They thought they were clever by not telling me where their main stash is hidden, but Hanna gave it away.

[olaf]

The key to doing well vs weapon attacks (ie most humans, goblins, orcs, etc.) is to block a lot. The best way to block is to just back up. Dont press the action button and back up, just back up, and when a weapon is incoming your character will auto block, whereas if you press the button and down to block, its a timed block. Once you have blocked, respond with a single forward attack, then go back to blocking. You will have to mix some strafes in, because all of the backing up will move you around a lot, but its not a problem as long as you make sure they are out of melee range before you strafe around.

After a while you will get more and more comfortable with the combat (and your weapons, str and skill will be getting better also, presumably) and you mix it up from there.

The only guy I havent been able to beat, in the course of regular gameplay early on, is Sentenza. He is a fucking monster. He is fast as hell, blocks a lot, does orc-like damage and has very good armor/hp.

olaf

[Dirt]

Is it worth it to pick up the first Gothic for $34.99?

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Is it worth it to pick up the first Gothic for $34.99?

Not unless you love wasting money. I was late to the party on this one but bought it at Circuit City for $10 about 3 months or so ago. I'd suggest looking around a bit.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

The key to doing well vs weapon attacks (ie most humans, goblins, orcs, etc.) is to block a lot. The best way to block is to just back up. Dont press the action button and back up, just back up, and when a weapon is incoming your character will auto block, whereas if you press the button and down to block, its a timed block. Once you have blocked, respond with a single forward attack, then go back to blocking. You will have to mix some strafes in, because all of the backing up will move you around a lot, but its not a problem as long as you make sure they are out of melee range before you strafe around.

After a while you will get more and more comfortable with the combat (and your weapons, str and skill will be getting better also, presumably) and you mix it up from there.

The only guy I havent been able to beat, in the course of regular gameplay early on, is Sentenza. He is a fucking monster. He is fast as hell, blocks a lot, does orc-like damage and has very good armor/hp.

olaf


Well,I tried the back up method and find I keep changing camera viewpoints to the extent I can't see the guy I'm fighting. I'll just do what I did in Gothic and become a mage :) I fought the ambusher mentioned above 15 times with sword, tried a couple times with my bow and always died. But two fireball scrolls and he was toast, in more ways than one.......

[Sam Jones]

Well,I tried the back up method and find I keep changing camera viewpoints to the extent I can't see the guy I'm fighting. I'll just do what I did in Gothic and become a mage :) I fought the ambusher mentioned above 15 times with sword, tried a couple times with my bow and always died. But two fireball scrolls and he was toast, in more ways than one.......

I have made a mage (Chap 4, 49 Real Hours In, Lvl 24 char) and mages are scarily powerful at higher levels. I can toast entire flocks of critters before one of them even reaches me. :)

Although I am going to go back and play the other two routes, I have a suspicion that mages are the most powerful class in G2. Even so, it's still very challenging, but manageable if you know what you're doing. Magery is expensive, though. I go through mana potions like they're going out of fashion.

PB have done a great job in the later chapters of showing the player how grave the situation is, not just by what you see and do, but by the events that occur while you're away doing other things. It's very immersive.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

I'm level 4 Chapter 1.I refused to frame Sarah,turned in Canthar for gold,she gave me nice reward.His quest was marked failed in the journal.

Many hours of play latter I return to town after discovering the theives guild and talking to all of them,I want to sell to my friend Sarah,she's not there Canthar is and he says he told all that I'm a convict and no one will trade with me,and worse I can't speak to the merchants about their quests.

I really don't have 500 gold to pay him to forget.I looked in the quest log and his quest no longer appears as failed!!! How do I get around this bug??

IIRC, this is second time this happened, he appeared first right after I turned him in and I just reloaded and it worked right but heaven knows which save I'd need to reload at this stage.

[Sam Jones]

I'm level 4 Chapter 1.I refused to frame Sarah,turned in Canthar for gold,she gave me nice reward.His quest was marked failed in the journal.

Many hours of play latter I return to town after discovering the theives guild and talking to all of them,I want to sell to my friend Sarah,she's not there Canthar is and he says he told all that I'm a convict and no one will trade with me,and worse I can't speak to the merchants about their quests.

I really don't have 500 gold to pay him to forget.I looked in the quest log and his quest no longer appears as failed!!! How do I get around this bug??

IIRC, this is second time this happened, he appeared first right after I turned him in and I just reloaded and it worked right but heaven knows which save I'd need to reload at this stage.

This isn't a bug, it's the consequence of turning Canthar in. He even told you himself! WTF makes you think it's a bug? Wake up!

You have to pay the 500gp, there's no other way to resolve the situation. You *did* betray him, after all. BTW, if you threaten him, he'll up the money to 600.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

I'm level 4 Chapter 1.I refused to frame Sarah,turned in Canthar for gold,she gave me nice reward.His quest was marked failed in the journal.

Many hours of play latter I return to town after discovering the theives guild and talking to all of them,I want to sell to my friend Sarah,she's not there Canthar is and he says he told all that I'm a convict and no one will trade with me,and worse I can't speak to the merchants about their quests.

I really don't have 500 gold to pay him to forget.I looked in the quest log and his quest no longer appears as failed!!! How do I get around this bug??

IIRC, this is second time this happened, he appeared first right after I turned him in and I just reloaded and it worked right but heaven knows which save I'd need to reload at this stage.

This isn't a bug, it's the consequence of turning Canthar in. He even told you himself! WTF makes you think it's a bug? Wake up!

You have to pay the 500gp, there's no other way to resolve the situation. You *did* betray him, after all. BTW, if you threaten him, he'll up the money to 600.


I think its a bug because there is no explanation at this stage of the game how he got out of jail and how he got Sarah's stall! It couldn't have been a reward for telling Andres I'm a convict since Andres mentions but otherwise ignores this info,why would he pay me 100G for Canthar and just let him go?


I think it is actually a buggy plot development that I triggered earlier than I should have by talking to Andres again before I was meant to in order to complete the join the militia quest. I reloaded some saves and it is the conversation with Andres that triggers this path.

I'm remembering more about what happen the last time I triggered this, I talked to Andres before I even returned to the marketplace and Canthar was there, not Sarah, so I never even got the reward from Sarah, more evidence it has a buggy trigger for the path.

Did you get this in Chapter 1??

I'm going to replay it without talking to Andres, the gold is bad enough but I also need the xp from the merchant's quests which they won't talk to me about anymore.Thanks.

[Gaming-Module]

He told you numerous times to not bother fucking him over as he has friends in high places to bail him out and make your life difficult. I didn't like doing it, but I framed Sarah for him.

That's why I like this game, sometimes your choices have long term consequences that you don't even notice until later in the game.

[Bailey]

I knocked Canthar down, drove a sword into his chest, and then paid a fine to Andre. 200 gold pieces, far less than he's asking for, and Andre restores my reputation with the townsfolk as someone who pays his dues after brutal murder in cold blood.

Canthar's friends seems to disappear after his death, as I had no NPC conflicts regarding the matter for the rest of the game.

[Lunch of Kong]

I think its a bug because there is no explanation at this stage of the game how he got out of jail and how he got Sarah's stall!

Yes there is. Go to the jail and talk to the jailer.

[Sam Jones]

I think its a bug because there is no explanation at this stage of the game how he got out of jail and how he got Sarah's stall! It couldn't have been a reward for telling Andres I'm a convict since Andres mentions but otherwise ignores this info,why would he pay me 100G for Canthar and just let him go?

Nope. you can visit the jailor in the barracks (room next to Andre) and he will immediately address you, and explain how Canthar is a popular and influential man, that you couldn't expect him to be in jail for long, and that you should be more careful who you put in prison.

Did you get this in Chapter 1??

Yes, it's supposed to happen! It's a plot development.

I'm going to replay it without talking to Andres, the gold is bad enough but I also need the xp from the merchant's quests which they won't talk to me about anymore.Thanks.

You can just keep playing. Raise the cash for Canthar and pay him off. Then the merchants will speak to you again.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

I think its a bug because there is no explanation at this stage of the game how he got out of jail and how he got Sarah's stall!

Yes there is. Go to the jail and talk to the jailer.

OK,I've done some more checking this out at Jowood and RPGdot and somebody else suggested this. Tried it and the jailer says absolutely nothing about Canthar!!

I've seen reference to this plot development taking place in later Chapters, but not Chapter 1, so I'm still convinced I may have triggered it too early........I did find an old save and have since worked around it, I'll deal with it later when the gold and xp are not quite as precious. Thanks.

[Bailey]

As far as I'm aware, Canthar can't be released until Chapter 3. So... you may have a bug.

[Sam Jones]

As far as I'm aware, Canthar can't be released until Chapter 3. So... you may have a bug.

In my game he was released in Chapter 1, and no ill effects, although I didn't try to join the milita, so it may be that this is a bug after all. I'd still recommend that Lloyd pay Canthar off. It will sort everything out.

[Bailey]

Perhaps that's best. I was playing through with a militia character again last night, and this time Andre couldn't clear my name with the merchants after stabbing Canthar up real good. So I'm assuming either it's a mercenary-only solution, or one of my attempts was bugged, and I have no idea which.

[Sam Jones]

I just had a fantastic moment. I killed 15 assorted Orc Warriors, Shamen and Elites with one spell in one go. I disguised myself as a Field Raider to get close to a large clump of Orcs and then "decloaked" and immediately let rip with Wave Of Death which does 400 damage in a shockwave emanating from your character. It will even nuke Demon Lords. It is a *slow* casting spell though, so the critters have a good chance to get to you and take large chunks out. Most of the time I use this spell, I end up with about a fifth of my HP remaining, and masses of corpses strewn all about me. And I didn't think it too many.

I repeated it everywhere I could find Orcs in the Valley of Mines. 3 levelups in 10 minutes from 29 -> 32. It's not like this is cheese* - you don't get it until late in the game (as a mage), but *wow*. The highend spells are very potent.

*Okay, it's cheese. But you *have* to try it.

[Jonathan Blow]

I just got to chapter 4 (level 20 mercenary), and wow, this game just keeps going. It so rocks. (I was a big fan of Gothic 1, but this is even better).

One thing I notice about this, at least so far, is that there are no "filler" game design elements. The world is always full of stuff to do, and there are always several interesting things just within your reach. There's none of the standard RPG thing of "Well my goal is to do X, but I am too weak right now so I am going to run around beating up on monsters to go up some levels." You feel good about leveling up in Gothic 2, but it's not the main point -- the main point is you running around getting lots of stuff done.

I really hope this game does decently in America. They definitely deserve lots of money for it.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

I'm looking for the bandits in the woods near the city without any luck, found some wargs though which I'm no where near ready for yet. Did in the bandits in the cave though. I'll keep looking.

Have a question about Daron, first time I spoke to him he offered to take me to the monastary,I didn't go and figured he'd be like Lares,and several characters in Gothic 1 and offer this option every time I speak to him but it is not available anymore. I have not yet chosen either a apprenticeship nor path. Intentional or bug??And will this have any effect to my becoming a Mage later?

[Contrai]

I'm looking for the bandits in the woods near the city without any luck, found some wargs though which I'm no where near ready for yet. Did in the bandits in the cave though. I'll keep looking.

Have a question about Daron, first time I spoke to him he offered to take me to the monastary,I didn't go and figured he'd be like Lares,and several characters in Gothic 1 and offer this option every time I speak to him but it is not available anymore. I have not yet chosen either a apprenticeship nor path. Intentional or bug??And will this have any effect to my becoming a Mage later?

Semi-Spoiler - Highlight to read
The bandits I assume you're looking for is found in a cave by Akil's farm. Take the steps up to Akil's farm and you will see a sign that says To Lighthouse, go in that direction which I think is west. Stay on the road until it eventually sort of inclines upward. At this point, you should take a left turn off the road and follow against the cliff/mountain wall and you will eventually see the bandits cave. Be careful though since their are wargs and other nasties nearby

I don't remember Daron mention anything about taking me to the monastary and if he did, I most likely answered No. I only remember something about 1000gp and a sacrificial sheep to enter monastary. It will not though have an effect as far as I know on becoming a mage.]

[Charles]

I'm finding this game to be a lot like Divine Divinity, but in 3d and with a deeper combat system. The games are similar on a lot of levels. Not that that's a bad thing; Divine Divinity is the last single player PC game I thoroughly enjoyed, and Gothic 2 is currently stealing every free bit of time I have.

[Sam Jones]

Okay, finished G2 last night, as a mage. Good ending, although PB *really* need to work on polishing up their cutscenes, they're worse quality than the stuff that was coming out nearly 10 years ago.

Very satisfying game, well worth every penny, and I'm looking forward to the expansion and Gothic 3.

[Bailey]

Speaking of, is there any sort of known ETA on the expansion? Doesn't appear to be any mention of it on the PB website.

[Sam Jones]

Speaking of, is there any sort of known ETA on the expansion? Doesn't appear to be any mention of it on the PB website.

In Germany, it should be later this year, but that will be a Jowood published and distributed release. For the English version, I'd imagine Infogrames will pick up the Dist if G2 does okay. It's not like there's much risk on their part, it'll probably make its money back in Germany alone.

It's called Night Of The Raven, I think.

[Bailey]

Sounds darkish.

[olaf]

You can kill Canthar while he is in jail and nothing bad happens. He is a tough fighter though, relatively speaking.

Also, during one of my games, I turned Canthar down both outside of town and in town, and there were no ill-effects. Perhaps because for this game I am in the militia? Not sure.

Ulf, I think, is the one who offers to take you to the monastery. He is a novice neer the free beer stand (btw...who in the fuck would be working in this town if they were giving away keg beer all day long, and also paying for your room at a hotel within stumbling distance).

I have a couple of questions regarding playing a Mage...how rare are runestones? I have a Mage character who just completed the Test of Fire (havent gone into the Valley of the Mines yet because I just have Circle 1 spells and only one right now, Flame Arrow) and they seem pretty rare.

The game is great but I doubt it does well in the US, I dont think the first one did. Its not marketed well, or really at all. Even in Germany it doesnt seem to be marketed well. The expansion there is due in less than 2 months and you cant even find a feature list for it.

olaf

[JD]

The expansion will ship around August 20th in Germany. No English version announced yet, I guess they'll wait and evaluate the sales performance of G2 in the UK and whatnot.
Its not marketed well, or really at all. Even in Germany it doesnt seem to be marketed well. Thw marketing was 'ok' and most mags featured large reviews with high scores. It could have been better though, but it was around the time when JoWooD's financial problems kicked in. The distribution of the game was handed over to another company only a few days before the release.

[Sam Jones]

I have a couple of questions regarding playing a Mage...how rare are runestones? I have a Mage character who just completed the Test of Fire (havent gone into the Valley of the Mines yet because I just have Circle 1 spells and only one right now, Flame Arrow) and they seem pretty rare.

They're rare, but you'll get or find enough for your purposes. TBH you won't have enough to rune-ify every spell available, that's why you use the scrolls - to try them out and see which you like. There are quite a few to be had (and I looked hard for them, they're a valuable resource for a mage). The mage in the monastary "kitchen" sells them, 2 per chapter, I think. Be careful though - if you try to create a rune and don't have all the right ingredients, you will spoil the runestone. This is incredibly annoying.

For your amusement, I will list the spells I runed, or found runes of throughout my game. Spoiler censored for one case. These spells will do you proud.

Circle 1
Fire Arrow (Obligatory, and better than nothing)
Heal Light Wounds (do, do get this one. It's extremely cheap healing)

Found in game: Create Goblin, Light (don't use this, it gave me a headache and obscures the view - use a torch).

Circle 2
Fireball (The eternal classic - essential)

Found in game: Ice Arrow. Not as cool, classic or essential as the Fireball.

Circle 3
Ice Block. This is absolutely essential - damages and holds. If they can't move, they can't hurt you. A good thing when it's three Orcs that are held and not hurting you.

Found in game: Fear (fun)

Circle 4
Lightning (best mid game attack spell)

Circle 5
Summon Demon. Just for those Muahahaha moments. They're hard enough to last a while. Don't bother with lesser summons, a waste of time/resources. Use scrolls to experiment.

Considered - Ice Wave. Area effect version of Ice Block. Nice, but IB is cheaper in mana and not much less practical to fire at a group.

Circle 6 (The Unholy Circle Of Cheese)
Wave Of Death. The last word in offensive magery. Fear it.
<censored for spoiler reasons, but a *good* spell>

Honourable mentions to Shrink Monster and Army Of Darkness. Both fun, but get the scrolls. Army of Darkness would be the best Summon, but it casts so slowly that it becomes a liability. AoD is what skeleton mages try to cast while you beat them to death (again), and is why they are so dangerous. If they manage to finish the casting, you're in deep shit.

Also, consider trading up your healing spell to Medium or Heavy later in the game. I didn't and casting Heal Light Wounds 20 times to heal your 600hp character is no fun, I can tell you.

Now - can anyone tell me If I should go back and try G2 as a Merc or Pally *or* play No One Lives Forever 1 & 2 which I have been kindly lent by a friend? That's the question.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

OK, I blew it, I got the wrong Mage, it is Ulf not Daron who offers to take you to the monastary.

And I refuse to speculate why those lonely monks at the monastary want a sheep......... :twisted:

[Bailey]

I have a couple of questions regarding playing a Mage...how rare are runestones? I have a Mage character who just completed the Test of Fire (havent gone into the Valley of the Mines yet because I just have Circle 1 spells and only one right now, Flame Arrow) and they seem pretty rare.
There are approximately 15 blank runestones available to be found/bought in the game. There are also a few pre-crafted runestones, such as Summon Goblin Skeleton, Fear, and Ice Arrow, so it's best to avoid scribing those spells to a rune. Most runes, as mentioned by Sam, are acquired via merchants at the monastery, and also the rarities merchant in the town proper, upper quarter. I believe his name is Lenthar or somesuch, to the left of the town hall, near Sangrasil the alchemist.

The exception to this are paladin runes, which are issued ready-made in exchange for learning points.

[olaf]

Thanks for the Mage tips. I got fireball and have been frying stuff left and right.

olaf

edit: I found the Heal Light wounds rune in game last night, and a couple of teleport runes as well. Those sure do rock, is there no way for a Paladin/Mercenary to use them?

[Incendiary Lemon]

Interview over at RPGDot
http://gothic.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=644


"GothicDot: Why, compared to the bugfree German version, the englich version of Gothic 2 has so many bugs, even though its game version is higher than the last German version (1.31 - 1.30) Will there be a patch for the english version?

Mike Hoge: The reason: Sloppiness, partly from us, partly from our publishers. We do apologize deeply for this. A patch will be released shortly we are just about to make it!"

[Jonathan Blow]

I found the Heal Light wounds rune in game last night, and a couple of teleport runes as well. Those sure do rock, is there no way for a Paladin/Mercenary to use them?

All classes can use telepot runes, they are sort of the exception I guess. Wow, I wouldn't want to play the 2nd half of the game without teleport runes.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

I'm still having a blast at level 8, just travelling around exploring, I want to level up to about 13-14 before going mage as I understand the training outside your class gets more expensive in LPs after you choose. Anyone know if this is true for minor skills like alchemy as well???

Just killed the Black troll,and I'm exploring near the Mayan type pyramid now...........

[Contrai]

I'm still having a blast at level 8, just travelling around exploring, I want to level up to about 13-14 before going mage as I understand the training outside your class gets more expensive in LPs after you choose. Anyone know if this is true for minor skills like alchemy as well???

Just killed the Black troll,and I'm exploring near the Mayan type pyramid now...........
It doesn't effect minor skills, it costs the same for all classes... Certain skills I think that double in LP if you become a mage are Bows, Dex, Str, & 1handed/2handed weapons

[Doug Erickson]

Can someone post a link in this thread when the patch gets released?

[John Reynolds]

Anyone playing G2 also play Arx Fatalis? I'm currently working my way through AF for the first time (can't believe it languished on my bookshelf for over 7 months, unplayed) and since I never bought the first Gothic I'm a little leery of the UK version's purported bugginess and wondering how much backstory I'd be missing out on.

[Bailey]

Arx Fatalis was a pleasant nostalgic sojourn down the hallways of my misspent Ultima Underworld youth. There's even a neat little easter egg in AF when you make a UU spell gesture, as I recall.

Most of the backstory in G2 is explained where relevent, although you may not understand all the references, the relationships are at least clear. The bugs I've seen (playing it through for the third time now) are fairly minor, a few rare show-stoppers and one or two common irritants. They've been greatly over exaggerated by some people, or perhaps those with unfortunate hardware setups. The real issues are the sloppy/non-existent translation in the journal, but this largely applies to information you should have garnered by listening to what people are telling you. It certainly isn't going to hamper your enjoyment of the title.

I wouldn't say waiting for the US release would be unwise, however. We'll see how the 1.3x patch turns out.

[Jonathan Blow]

I played Arx Fatalis for about 4 hours, hated it, then played it for another 8 hours to give it the benefit of the doubt, then gave it back to the guy who I was borrowing it from. With those 12 hours of play time, it felt like I was maybe 2/3 of the way through the game. (I had been revealed as the superbeing guy and was trying to locate Patty Hearst again who was apparently at some random place down in the big empty caves I had cleared out [according to the walkthrough], how was I supposed to know where she was, am I just supposed to wander aimlessly til I find her, when it's not even clear that I am supposed to be looking for her? Great game design, guys.)

It's really not in the same league as Gothic or Gothic 2. It's an extremely linear game where you wander through empty maps doing nothing interesting. And the gesture recognition sucks (just like Black & White's did) so good luck casting a spell without trying it like 15 times. Oh yes I am negative about that game.

[Sam Jones]

Anyone playing G2 also play Arx Fatalis? I'm currently working my way through AF for the first time (can't believe it languished on my bookshelf for over 7 months, unplayed) and since I never bought the first Gothic I'm a little leery of the UK version's purported bugginess and wondering how much backstory I'd be missing out on.

I thought Arx was an amateurish, bug ridden mess. It gave the illusion of being fairly freeform, but it was easy to break the main quest by exploring too much. I hope they clean it up significantly for the xbox release. Also, the interface was clunky with a capital Awkward. Spell casting was fun the first time, thereafter it was tedious.

In its favour it was quite atmospeheric, but with a severe lack of variety of scenery and people. I got bored quite quickly but perservered until nearly the end of the game. I have no desire to replay it, and I won't be going near the sequel with a 10ft pole.

Gothic 2 (and Gothic) shit on Arx from a great height.

Edit: Sorry, so busy ranting over Arx I forgot about your G2 question. No, you don't need to have played Gothic 1. The main events are explained over the course of G2 (not in one convenient chunk), and characters returning from the first game always start the conversation with a "Remember me? 1)Sure 2)No, remind me" type dialogue option.

Do, do go back and play Gothic if you can. It's a great game.

[Bailey]

Peoples' experiences with AF tend to be wildly divergent, for whatever reason. Myself, I experienced very few bugs, and only experienced one point, early in the game, where I had to restart due to breaking the main quest. No big deal, but annoying. The story was pretty good until the last 15 seconds of the game as well.

That being said, having to store three fireball spells in memory every 45 seconds or so during the last leg of the game is EXTREMELY tedious, but I still like the magic system. Especially the goth robo-voice that informs you as to which rune you just cast.

[Jonathan Blow]

That being said, having to store three fireball spells in memory every 45 seconds or so during the last leg of the game is EXTREMELY tedious, but I still like the magic system. Especially the goth robo-voice that informs you as to which rune you just cast.

AHM BRAAM TOKK.

PAK CHOOIE UNF.

[Bailey]

Awwww yeah. Good times.

[Brian Koontz]

I hate asking for help in games, but after 16 hours in and 10 hours after finding my last unique plant I'm getting desperate.

WHERE is Snapperweed? I need it for Constantino's quest (and apprenticeship). I've found at least 3 of everything else.

[Jonathan Blow]

I hate asking for help in games, but after 16 hours in and 10 hours after finding my last unique plant I'm getting desperate.

WHERE is Snapperweed? I need it for Constantino's quest (and apprenticeship). I've found at least 3 of everything else.

I always found Snapperweed to be pretty plentiful. If you found 3 King's Sorrels and 3 Dragonroots and 3 Goblinberries, it's nigh inconceivable that you haven't found a snapperweed.

I think you might be able to buy one from Sagitta the herb witch, over by Sekob's farm.

[xahlt]

Not that this is terribly much help, but on the Jowood Forums someone had put together a map (in German) of the location of all major herbs.

Personally, I didn't find Constantino's apprenticeship worth it; I was able to get all the recipes without him and the 1 King's Sorrel is worth more than anything he offers.

Plus, the smithy apprenticeship offers a limitless supply of gold :)

[Sam Jones]

Whoops! Looks like RPGDot is reporting that the US edition of Gothic 2 will be cleaned up and "refined". This might mean extra content or just pre-patched with the forthcoming UK/Euro patch.

http://www.rpgdot.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32839

Probably not prepatched with the expansion pack, however.

[Desslock]

Whoops! Looks like RPGDot is reporting that the US edition of Gothic 2 will be cleaned up and "refined".

Uh, that's a GameSpot report, which you can read in full http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/gothic2/preview_6071616.html. RPGDot are just linking to it.

[JD]

Eh, sounds like Gamespot basically only quoted Infogrames PR efforts. It's not like they're going to do voice records for the English version again. The only difference to the UK version is likely to be that it'll have the patch, which is currently in the development, integrated. Apart from that Piranha Bytes is currently only working on the expansion of Gothic 2. The guy who wrote the review doesn't know too much about the game anyway. Some names are spelled incorrectly, he doesn't seem to be aware that an English version is already available in the UK and Gothic II was released in late 2002, not "earlier this year".

[Sam Jones]

Uh, that's a GameSpot report, which you can read in full http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/gothic2/preview_6071616.html. RPGDot are just linking to it.

Begging yer pardon. I tend to attribute news to the place I read it, rather than the place it originates, as do most people, I suspect (e.g. if you read something in the newspaper, you attribute it to the paper rather than AP). I never bothered to look at the Gamespot article, so I linked to RPGDot.

[Peter Frazier]

I've been spending time on this game and I'm loving it.
I've started chapter 2 and for some reason (involved with me running away from orcs lots of times) I'm now totally lost. It's a bit like Behind Enemy Lines meets Warcraft 2. I keep running into little isolated bands of NPCs who are doing their bit in the siege and I'm just digging the whole ambience of the thing.
Morrowind may have had purtier graphics but this game has so much more.
Things I like about Gothic 2-
The settled areas feel like they are alive and that people have their own routines.
You can walk into buildings and caves without having loading screens.
Combat feels a bit more tactical.
The balance with levelling seems to work well.
There aren't too many fedex quests.

How do you other guys feel about this one?
(I know I'm a couple of weeks late with this gushy post but hey, it takes time for things to happen down here.)

[JD]

How do you other guys feel about this one?
Well, I guess the people who posted here like it for the same reason you do. ;) The atmosphere in the game is amazing. I'll grab the expansion the day it comes out over here (in about 1 month).

[Gaming-Module]

How do you other guys feel about this one?
Well, I guess the people who posted here like it for the same reason you do. ;) The atmosphere in the game is amazing. I'll grab the expansion the day it comes out over here (in about 1 month).

Good game. Not quite as good as Gothic 1, but close. Hopefully part 3 has a much better final stage/boss than it's predecessor.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

OK, I enter the Valley of Mines, kill a couple of Orcs,there are too many so I look for way around.

I backtrack,go into cave which leads to a level above, arch, cave where I enter new area load screen,find teleport rune and bridge.I go over bridge, climb up, and reach very shallow cave with chest in front.

I go into cave and get cutscene of being on a bridge or wall(?) and seeing dragon destroying city(Khorinis?) and then attacking me.Then I'm back in cave with no explanation, nor any view out of back of cave. Am I ahead of the plot somehow?? Having a vision? Or am I supposed to be able to see thru the wall of a cave?

Should I go on, or reload and avoid going in cave? Thanks.

[JD]

Been a while since I beat it, but what you saw is the attack on a place you'll get to see soon. It's no vision, rather an explanation of what's happening at that other place at the same time. No bug here, the cutscene will be explained once you get there.

[Jonathan Blow]

Been a while since I beat it, but what you saw is the attack on a place you'll get to see soon. It's no vision, rather an explanation of what's happening at that other place at the same time. No bug here, the cutscene will be explained once you get there.

This part confused me as well, but everything is okay.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Boy, it sucks to enter a new area in the frigging dark. I'm past the cutscene cave I asked about last time.I just found Diego's bag near a lake. At the end of the lake valley is a chain ore lift of some type I can't figure out how to climb.There is another narrow valley exit but I enter and load a new area materializing in the middle of a bunch of Orcs. Where Am I supposed to be going to get my evidence and how do I get there? :cry:

[Contrai]

I assume by evidence, you're talking about the thing you needed to do for the commander of paladins/head mercenary/priest?

Keep moving from where you triggered the cinema scene south I think. While heading in that direction you should be able to see the body of a fallen paladin behind a tree next to a dragon snapper I think. Evenutally you'll see a river of sorts with a path leading downwards. Along the path you will see a guy on the road who will give you more detail to the cinematic you saw earlier and also what you need to do. I'm being mostly vague as to not give away any spoilers for people reading who are not as far yet...Its also been awhile since I finished the game :D

[Jonathan Blow]

Boy, it sucks to enter a new area in the frigging dark. I'm past the cutscene cave I asked about last time.I just found Diego's bag near a lake. At the end of the lake valley is a chain ore lift of some type I can't figure out how to climb.There is another narrow valley exit but I enter and load a new area materializing in the middle of a bunch of Orcs. Where Am I supposed to be going to get my evidence and how do I get there? :cry:

Here you're at a disadvantage from not having played Gothic 1, heh.

The area you're in is the place where prisoners were originally thrown into the Valley of Mines. That heavily camped path you're talking about is the way *back* to Khorinis, the way you snuck around by going up on the overpass. You don't want to try to go through there. Instead, find the downhill path.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Boy, it sucks to enter a new area in the frigging dark. I'm past the cutscene cave I asked about last time.I just found Diego's bag near a lake. At the end of the lake valley is a chain ore lift of some type I can't figure out how to climb.There is another narrow valley exit but I enter and load a new area materializing in the middle of a bunch of Orcs. Where Am I supposed to be going to get my evidence and how do I get there? :cry:

Here you're at a disadvantage from not having played Gothic 1, heh.

The area you're in is the place where prisoners were originally thrown into the Valley of Mines. That heavily camped path you're talking about is the way *back* to Khorinis, the way you snuck around by going up on the overpass. You don't want to try to go through there. Instead, find the downhill path.


Well, I played Gothic 1 but my in game sense of direction is as bad as my real one, and I don't have a Valley of Mines map (only thing I don't like about these games is no automap, the hand held ones load too damn slow)

I guess I'll use my rune to go back to the begining of the valley and search around now that it is lighter.

[malphigian]

Has anyone heard anymore details about the US release?

I'm tempted to buy the UK version, but with the various bug reports (german text, glaring show stoppers, etc), and the long delay before the US release (october?), I'm wondering if they might be fixing a lot of open issues.

The previews I've seen don't seem to mention anything, but why else would they be delaying it so long?

[Sam Jones]

I'm tempted to buy the UK version, but with the various bug reports (german text, glaring show stoppers, etc)

There are no glaring showstoppers, at least none I encountered three times through the game. There are a lot of sloppy mis or non-translation problems, and a few minor quest knots, but other than that it's pretty tight. Which showstoppers were you referring to?

[malphigian]

All secondhand stuff (obviously, never having played the game), though I can't point to a source right now.

The translation problems sound mildly annoying, but, then again, by the time october rolls around there are going to be so many other games to play.

[Bailey]

I played through the game twice without a single bug, and encountered a show-stopper on the third attempt. Any game will have bugs in it, I think people focused heavily on Gothic II's little quirks because it was otherwise a nigh-perfect title, one of the first in years that I would actually consider giving the so heavily abused "triple-A" label.

Regardless, the Pirhana Bytes guys fessed up to rushing a slop job, and promised a patch for the UK version, which will presumably bring it up on par with the US release. Buy now, buy later, it'll be the same game by October either way.

[malphigian]

Bringing this old thread back to life...

After being convinced here, I picked up the game, and it is indeed amazingly good.

Some things I'm loving so far:
The game world is huge and expansive but never feels like filler, every area seems hand-crafted (I'm looking at you, morrowind).

The NPCs mostly have some personality, and there is very little useless garbage characters with the same dialog options (*cough* morrowind). Enough personality that I had so much rage directed at Sentenza when I finally beat him, that I finished him off (love the little head-shake and sword through the chest bit).

Once I got used to the controls, I fell in love with the combat system. I'm nearly always a spellcaster type in RPGs, but I realized pretty quickly I wanted to try the combat route in gothic 2, and went mercenary. I love how player skills based it is -- I get better in sword fighting because I got better at sword tactics and I learned the moves of a particular creature. I've never played an RPG before that effectively mixed a skills system with "twitch" abilities, usually its a dull click-click-click affair (like, um, morrowind).

I do have to admit that I enabled the potion-use hot keys (you do it in the .ini file), but I felt bad after getting admonished by the designers (via the .ini file), and I only use it after running away from combat.

I'm only in chapter 2 (level 15 mercenary), so I don't have the big picture yet, but I've already gotten my money's worth.

Anyway, if any RPG fans haven't picked this up yet, I'll (belatedly) echo the dozens of others in here: get it. First time in a while I'm enjoying the actual play of an RPG rather than just the advancement/character building.

[BDGE]

I haven't kept up with this thread, but skimming through, it really looks like I'm going to have to try Gothic 2 out when it releases. It really does sound like the game I was hoping Morrowind would be and so much more!