HL2: 360 - the worst controls ever?

[jeffd]

I hate to be that internet nerd but wow, am I appalled.

Normally I'm a fan of console shooters. And I was liking HL2's console incarnation well enough. The auto aim made firefights kind of easy, while the controller made hitting things with a crowbar kind of hard. But overall it was fine.

Until I got into the airboat.

At first I was happy. ANALOG CONTROLS! Finally I can really steer this thing, instead of furiously tapping left and right to make a slight turn.

Only, not really.

Problem 1: The throttle and steering are on the same stick. Up for throttle, back for reverse, left and right to steer. Only, the more you steer left and right the less throttle you have. So controlling this thing is actually a nightmare if you need to maintain speed. That makes fighting things hard - you need to be turning and dodging to avoid, say, ROCKETS but if you start steering you lose throttle. It's an airboat in a relatively well modeled physics system - the less throttle you have, the less air you have going past the rudder, so the less aggressively you turn.

wtg valve. Did they even play this part of the game, I wonder.

Problem 2: The auto aim on the turret is a joke. It's just broken. If something is in your view frustrum, it will lock onto that something with absolutely no controller input. Or at least it seemed that way at first. I didn't even have to aim at the combine civil patrol and the barnacles, just get them in front of me and I'd lock on.

But then I fought a rocket truck. It's awesome, Valve, how the auto aim leaps to EVERY ROCKET those things fire, making it a real chore to take one out.

And now I'm on the big chopper fight, and it's awful. The auto aim is just finicky at this point, making it impossible to stay locked on. Emptying the ENTIRE charge of the cannon might, if I'm lucky, get a single hit. This fight is taking me far longer than it ever took on my 3 runs through this game on the PC.

So way to go Valve. I'm a big believer that shooters can absolutely work on consoles - that there's nothing inherently superior about a mouse and keyboard. I still think that, but I now also think you guys were too lazy to even try to make your game work well on this new platform. Idiots.

EDIT: yep, I just died. Went into the fight with 100 health, 77 armor and I got killed. Entirely due to the awful controls. I couldn't steer aggressively enough to dodge the chopper's cannon, and I couldn't actually hit what I was aiming at.

Anyone at Valve who says they playtested this game thoroughly is a liar. I've never seen such an egregious example of sloppy gameplay.

[spiffy]

- that there's nothing inherently superior about a mouse and keyboard. .

heh.


speaking of which, if ever there was a game to pit the kb&m vs gp crowd against each other, team fortress2 was it.

To stray even farther from your actual point, I bet you can put 40 targets on the screen and have them flip up in random order, and a kb&m will hit them in sequence at least 40% faster than a pad without auto-aim. Someone make a flash game or something I wanna try it out..

[tromik]

There certainly are problems with the controls. The auto-aim at the beginning when you first start shooting the Combine is ridiculously high. Then it apparently goes away. Then you realize that some bullets that you fired no where near the Combine are killing them. But you don't care, because otherwise you'd be dead.

You're right about the airboat, too. It took me forever to get used to the controls, and I still often make the mistake of "turning too far" to the right, which actually bring me to a stop, and then I begin to reverse to the left. Not sure about other gamers out there, but my thumb does not rest on the analog stick perfectly, so to me forward is actually up and a bit to the left, or something. The gun on the airboat is wonky, but usable. I took down the chopper no problem. The rockets fired from the truck - I'm assuming you mean the trucks that fire rockets at you that hit you even when you are under the trucks? I don't think you're supposed to shoot those, you're just supposed to get the fuck outta there.

So now I'm in Ravenholm, and Christ this isn't good. Most of the enemies quickly lunge at you, and then end up behind you or something. I'm constantly missing, and wasting a tonne of ammo. And of course the headcrab zombies don't drop ammo. It isn't even a surprise when a basic headcrab kills you, because you're firing everywhere the headcrab isn't.

Also, a lot of the control problems I found in the PC version are still here. I'm constantly getting stuck on shit and getting trapped in doors for no reason. Backing out of a room is basically impossible, as you have to line up Gordon perfectly with the door, or else he gets caught on the frame.

Still, I'm loving the game. I haven't stopped playing or thrown a controller in frustration yet, and I keep going back to it. Either I'm a retard or the game is actually just that fucking good that I don't care.

BTW, does the buggy have a gun on it, too? I hope not, and I pray that I'm able to accelerate and reverse with the triggers. Or at least the bumpers.

[tromik]

heh.


speaking of which, if ever there was a game to pit the kb&m vs gp crowd against each other, team fortress2 was it.

To stray even farther from your actual point, I bet you can put 40 targets on the screen and have them flip up in random order, and a kb&m will hit them in sequence at least 40% faster than a pad without auto-aim. Someone make a flash game or something I wanna try it out..
Shooting things 40% faster is approximaetly 0.0625% more fun.

C'mon, this isn't a KB&M vs. gamepad discussion. KB&M is superior*, but gamepads do work if the controls are done well and you give them a chance. They just don't work all that well in HL2.

*Except when it comes to semi-sleep-state-genital-vibration. And the 360 had that market cornered until just now.

Edited for missing words.

[JMR]

*Except when it comes to semi-sleep-state-genital-vibration. And the 360 had that market cornered until just now.

Hell yeah. It pains me to kill Big Daddy's in Bioshock.

[jeffd]

Yes the buggy has a gun on it. :( It gets one put on later, just like the airboat.

I think that chopper fight just overwhelms the auto aim. There are several things at work, as far as I can tell:

1) Very aggressive auto aim.
1a) So aggressive that IT TARGETS RANDOM BARRELS IN THE AREA AND THE BOMBS THE CHOPPER DROPS in lieu of the chopper itself.
2) Shortish range on the auto aim, so it doesn't really target the chopper at a distance.

Maybe I'm just stupid and that's why the chopper killed me (I'm not, it's not), but right now I'm absolutely frustrated with this game. I'm at the point of considering returning it - I can't imagine playing the later buggy levels, or Episode 2's vehicle sequences if they're like this...

[jeffd]

Also just to head this off at the pass - we've got a thread already for the kbm vs. controller pissing match, let's keep it out of here. I'd like this thread to stay focused on just how much Valve dropped the ball on this one. :D

[Igor Muravyev]

Problem 1: The throttle and steering are on the same stick. Up for throttle, back for reverse, left and right to steer. Only, the more you steer left and right the less throttle you have. So controlling this thing is actually a nightmare if you need to maintain speed. That makes fighting things hard - you need to be turning and dodging to avoid, say, ROCKETS but if you start steering you lose throttle. It's an airboat in a relatively well modeled physics system - the less throttle you have, the less air you have going past the rudder, so the less aggressively you turn.
Thanks for reminding me about this. I've been trying to fly helicopters in Quake Wars using the 360 controller, and throttle is bound to the analog stick and rolling to the side, so it really doesn't work out very well at all. I totally need to get a real joystick :).

Although for controlling vehicles, isn't it pretty standard fair nowadays to have up/down be accelerate/decelerate, and left/right be turn left/turn right? I'm actually glad its not like Halo where you can't change your camera angle without automatically turning.

[Sarkus]

I hate to be that internet nerd but wow, am I appalled.


Weird. There's a three page thread on Orange Box over at Gaming Trend and not a single person has made this complaint. And a lot of people are comparing it positively to the PC version, having played both.

So maybe you're missing something?

Seems an odd oversight if it was implemented as poorly as you say.

[madkevin]

I actually find the controls for the speedboat way easier with the 360 controller. (You're right about the crazy auto-aim of the boat gun, though.)

[Kevin Grey]

I've played through HL2 at least two or three times on PC and one time on the 360. Overall, I thought the 360 controls were fantastic. I do agree about the auto-aim on the airboat being totally screwed up, but that was my only issue at all with the controls.

[tromik]

For me, while the controls are annoying, they aren't enough to make me stop playing this game. I love it. Again, I had problems with the PC version as I was always getting caught in little things in the environment that you couldn't really see, but I didn't give a shit.

Is there a way to map the throttle of the vehicles to the triggers and the mounted weapons to the bumpers, or vice versa? Those bumpers are just sitting there begging to be used.

Either that or fix the auto-aim on the vehicles and just have the game play that part for me.

[tromik]

Hell yeah. It pains me to kill Big Daddy's in Bioshock.
What? It pleasures me. I'm not sure who's more of a weirdo in this situation.

[Ezdaar]

I'm normally a K&M only player but I just got a nice deal from Frys on a new 360 with the Orange Box, Bioshock and Two worlds bundled in with the normal Forza 2 and Marvel, so I guess now I will be a console FPS guy as well. Got any tips for those of us transitioning for the first time?

[ElGuapo]

Can you toggle auto-aim off?

[Zuwadza]

Yeah, the boat and buggy parts were the only parts with annoying controls, the rest was fine by me. They managed to make the vehicle parts more dull and tedious than they already were. Doesn't Valve know there's a small precedent for vehicle controls on a console?

[Moore]

What elg said- are you guys seriously telling me there are no ways to change up the controls?

[tromik]

Can you toggle auto-aim off?
I'm not even sure. You're not going to want to, however, as that would basically break the game.

Remember, HL2 isn't Halo where most of the combat situations are all basically close quarters stuff. You also don't have grenades that do massive damage. In HL2, you'll walk into a room, and the Combine will start firing on you, and you can barely see them they are so far away. And all you have is a pistol. No problem with a mouse and keyboard, but almost impossible with a gamepad. The auto-aim actually works when you're up against the Combine.

It just get's...not good...on the vehicles.

In Ravenholm, though, I wish I could just cheat and import the flame thrower from Halo 3. I can't hit shit in Ravenholm.

[WarrenM]

Yeah, turning off the auto-aim sounds like an absolutely horrendous idea.

[Islanti]

I thought the vehicle controls were easier. I quit playing HL2 on the PC before getting the boat gun because it was so difficult to control. I did crave the Halo-style vehicle controls, but I don't see how that'd work with the turret controls.

The helicopter fight was a challenge. What helped me is getting locked on when the chopper is turning. Then I could unload a full clip into it no problem. Rinse, repeat a few times and I'm past that point. Dodging the barrels and bombs wasn't too bad.

[stusser]

How does this affect the domedness scale?

[Harkonis]

Any game that has throttle on the same stick as steering is a no-play for me. I was so happy when racing games finally got over that and put the throttle on the right trigger.

[Zuwadza]

What elg said- are you guys seriously telling me there are no ways to change up the controls?

You can change the controls, just not the vehicle part of them.

Edit: Also, I really haven't noticed the auto-aim in the rest of the game. Is it even there? If it is it must be very, very subtle. Now Bioshock, there's a game with very noticeable auto-aim.

[tromik]

I thought the vehicle controls were easier. I quit playing HL2 on the PC before getting the boat gun because it was so difficult to control. I did crave the Halo-style vehicle controls, but I don't see how that'd work with the turret controls.
Throttle up - Right trigger
Throttle down - Left trigger
Fire weapon - Right bumper
Steer - Left analog
Aim - Right analog

Lookit me! I'm making games better at 11am, without coffee!

The helicopter fight was a challenge. What helped me is getting locked on when the chopper is turning. Then I could unload a full clip into it no problem. Rinse, repeat a few times and I'm past that point. Dodging the barrels and bombs wasn't too bad.
The controls aren't as bad as the title of this thread suggests, but I'd definitely describe them as janky or wonky.

[tromik]

Edit: Also, I really haven't noticed the auto-aim in the rest of the game. Is it even there? If it is it must be very, very subtle.
Oh, it's sooooooo there. You're telling me every time that you hit a Combine soldier with a pistol shot from 40 yards, that was all you?

I'm not sure if you can, but try turning it off and see if you can make the same shot.

[forgeforsaken]

Throttle up - Left trigger
Throttle down - Right trigger
Fire weapon - Right bumper
Steer - Left analog
Aim - Right analog

Lookit me! I'm making games better at 11am, without coffee!


Think you got your triggers swapped.
Crackdown had a good layout for the vehicles with guns that was sort of similar, didn't really see it unless you got the add on vehicles though.

[tromik]

Think you got your triggers swapped.
Crackdown had a good layout for the vehicles with guns that was sort of similar, didn't really see it unless you got the add on vehicles though.
Whoops, you're right. Will edit.

[Zuwadza]

Oh, it's sooooooo there. You're telling me every time that you hit a Combine soldier with a pistol shot from 40 yards, that was all you?

I'm not sure if you can, but try turning it off and see if you can make the same shot.

Well, I won't argue that point with you since right now there's no way to prove or disprove it other than asking Valve, but it's at least not the lock-on auto-aiming of Bioshock. I found shots like that to be pretty unreliable, as in a good chunk of your shots miss and as such was never all that incredulous at making long shots with the pistol.

[Islanti]

Throttle up - Right trigger
Throttle down - Left trigger
Fire weapon - Right bumper
Steer - Left analog
Aim - Right analog
What I said was "Halo style". That ain't Halo style. Halo uses both sticks to do all the driving (left stick is accelerate and look, right stick is steering). That wouldn't work obviously.

Your suggestion is about the same as any driving game for basics. Full Auto had a few aimed weapons which worked that way. I found it pretty clumsy to try to do everything all at once in Full Auto, but it was a lot faster paced game than HL2.

[tromik]

Well, I won't argue that point with you since right now there's no way to prove or disprove it other than asking Valve, but it's at least not the lock-on auto-aiming of Bioshock. I found shots like that to be pretty unreliable, as in a good chunk of your shots miss and as such was never all that incredulous at making long shots with the pistol.
I didn't notice it so much in BioShock, but then again, you're not making 40 yard pistol shots. The stuff like the electroshock-thing would completely lock on, but it seemed to make more sense for some reason.

[tromik]

What I said was "Halo style". That ain't Halo style. Halo uses both sticks to do all the driving (left stick is accelerate and look, right stick is steering). That wouldn't work obviously.

Your suggestion is about the same as any driving game for basics. Full Auto had a few aimed weapons which worked that way. I found it pretty clumsy to try to do everything all at once in Full Auto, but it was a lot faster paced game than HL2.
No, you're right. It's not Halo style, which just can't be done.

Edit: Just realized that the tank in Halo controls exactly like the airboat in HL2. Granted that things literally a tank, and you can stop it, take aim and fire without worry, but it still controls better.

I'd rather have my solution than what's present now, because driving the airboat is a bitch.

[stusser]

The driving levels always made me nauseous in the PC version, so I skipped them with godmode and noclip. Guess on the console, you're out of luck, love it or leave it.

[tromik]

The driving levels always made me nauseous in the PC version, so I skipped them with godmode and noclip. Guess on the console, you're out of luck, love it or leave it.
I loved the driving levels in the PC version. I loved getting air and then slamming into the water. I loved that you could get out at any time and explore buildings and stuff. Really made it feel like an adventure.

[BDGE]

Weird, I had no such issues to speak of. Played through HL2 on 360 in Hard mode and killed the chopper on a single attempt. My strategy did consist of a bullfight(drive straight under it as fast possible, U-turn, park and shoot like a turret...rinse and repeat)

I will somewhat attest that the control isn't exactly optimal, I never felt like I could simply coax my craft from Point A-> B without conditioning myself to the control scheme. But I didn't find it a fiasco by any stretch. Just timidly steer the craft in an analog arc mostly holding the left stick North. Ease back on the stick to slow for tight cornering or fine-tuned parking. No biggie...

The auto-aim thing is more of a blessing. Segregating viewpoint from acceleration/steering(left vs. right stick) makes for plenty of confusing velocity-driven hijinks. Having to pan around for missiles(and pixel-perfect aim) while worrying about current trajectory and obstacles could have truly irritated. I didn't mind the ease of holding the win button down for these sections.

[Kevin Grey]

I thought the vehicle controls were easier. I quit playing HL2 on the PC before getting the boat gun because it was so difficult to control. I did crave the Halo-style vehicle controls, but I don't see how that'd work with the turret controls.

I agree with this- I think the vehicles in general control better with the gamepad than mouse and keyboard, it's the auto-aiming for the vehicle weapons that's an issue. Further it was really only for the airboat because you almost never have to use the zapper on the buggy and when you do there aren't millions of particles in the environment that it tries to auto target.

[stusser]

I didn't say they weren't well done, I said they made me nauseous. I felt physically sick playing them. Dunno why.

[tromik]

I didn't say they weren't well done, I said they made me nauseous. I felt physically sick playing them. Dunno why.
No, I was just pointing out that you missed out on what may have been my favourite part of the game.

HL2 made a lot of people motion sick, IIRC. Maybe the frame-rate and the FoV?

Marathon still makes me want to hurl.