This Surveillance Stuff Is Starting To Bug Me

[Brian Rucker]

Seriously.

In one approach, researchers funded by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) are inserting computer chips into moth pupae -- the intermediate stage between a caterpillar and a flying adult -- and hatching them into healthy "cyborg moths."

The Hybrid Insect Micro-Electro-Mechanical Systems project aims to create literal shutterbugs -- camera-toting insects whose nerves have grown into their internal silicon chip so that wranglers can control their activities. DARPA researchers are also raising cyborg beetles with power for various instruments to be generated by their muscles.
In July, however, a Harvard University team got a truly fly-like robot airborne, its synthetic wings buzzing at 120 beats per second.

"It showed that we can manufacture the articulated, high-speed structures that you need to re-create the complex wing motions that insects produce," said team leader Robert Wood.

The fly's vanishingly thin materials were machined with lasers, then folded into three-dimensional form "like a micro-origami," he said. Alternating electric fields make the wings flap. The whole thing weighs just 65 milligrams, or a little more than the plastic head of a push pin.

Still, it can fly only while attached to a threadlike tether that supplies power, evidence that significant hurdles remain.

In August, at the International Symposium on Flying Insects and Robots, held in Switzerland, Japanese researchers introduced radio-controlled fliers with four-inch wingspans that resemble hawk moths. Those who watch them fly, its creator wrote in the program, "feel something of 'living souls.' "

Others, taking a tip from the CIA, are making fliers that run on chemical fuels instead of batteries.
So what was seen by Crane, Alarcon and a handful of others at the D.C. march -- and as far back as 2004, during the Republican National Convention in New York, when one observant but perhaps paranoid peace-march participant described on the Web "a jet-black dragonfly hovering about 10 feet off the ground, precisely in the middle of 7th avenue . . . watching us"?

They probably saw dragonflies, said Jerry Louton, an entomologist at the National Museum of Natural History. Washington is home to some large, spectacularly adorned dragonflies that "can knock your socks off," he said.

At the same time, he added, some details do not make sense. Three people at the D.C. event independently described a row of spheres, the size of small berries, attached along the tails of the big dragonflies -- an accoutrement that Louton could not explain. And all reported seeing at least three maneuvering in unison.

"Dragonflies never fly in a pack," he said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/08/AR2007100801434.html

[Lizard_King]

I can't wait for anal probing to be integrated into the mythology ("It's where they put the listening devices!"), and for disgruntled liberals to become the substitutes for middle of nowhere white trash. It would make for a much more entertaining narrative.

[Brian Rucker]

Guy, do yourself a favor and read the article.

[Lizard_King]

Guy, do yourself a favor and read the article.
I did, and I'm not alarmed.

[Soapyfrog]

Sounds like ye olde UFO sighting has got itself some new duds.

[Brian Rucker]

I don't know if what the protesters saw is what they think they saw but it sounds like you've got DARPA, CIA and Harvard at least all chasing down this angle of experimentation. And showing it off!

That's a bit different from Area 51, IMHO.

[Machfive]

And it's seriously far away from being field-ready. If the protesters were worried about being spyed on, they should be more concerned with shotgun microphones, traffic cameras, and spy satellites that are being directed by a sinister beaurocrat played by Jon Voight.

[MatthewF]

It's not black helicopters anymore, it's black dragonflies now, bitches!

[Nick Walter]

Yeah, the technology is neat to read about, but the paranoia of those sure that big brother is using this to spy on them is just silly. Just a newer breed of tinfoil hat wearers.

[Hanzii]

"Dragonflies never fly in a pack," he said.


No, but when the NSA robo-dragonfly handlers get bored they band together and pretend their little spys are the Blue Angels...

Come on.

[Brian Rucker]

Must be alot of them out there. This is by far one of the most viewed stories at the Weekly World News, oops Washington Post, site today.

[Anti-Bunny]

I don't know if what the protesters saw is what they think they saw but it sounds like you've got DARPA, CIA and Harvard at least all chasing down this angle of experimentation. And showing it off!
You forgot Cheney!!!!!

[Midnight Son]

I got lots of RAID, bitches!

[Linoleum]

Tech isn't there yet, either for power cell density/efficiency or miniaturization of your telemetry link. The cutting edge here isn't hidden behind some black project wall, you have to look at where the mobile industry is going.

[Nick Walter]

Must be alot of them out there. This is by far one of the most viewed stories at the Weekly World News, oops Washington Post, site today.

Brian Brian Brian, you clearly don't get it. You need to start using heavier grade aluminum foil for your hat. The lightweight stuff will do it for the relatively weak satellite based mind control beams, but the much stronger insert delivered local beams require heavy duty foiling to stop.

Hints here (http://zapatopi.net/afdb/).

[Aeon221]

And it's seriously far away from being field-ready. If the protesters were worried about being spyed on, they should be more concerned with shotgun microphones, traffic cameras, and spy satellites that are being directed by a sinister beaurocrat played by Jon Voight.

Oh reeree?

Just like how U-2 spyplanes and the Blackbirds were were just weather balloons right? The government NEVER hides super sekret new technology, evar. Doesn't happen. They tell us everything and never lie. Ever. Never ever ever ever ever.

But the CIA (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Central+Intelligence+Agency?tid=informline) secretly developed a simple dragonfly snooper as long ago as the 1970s. And given recent advances, even skeptics say there is always a chance that some agency has quietly managed to make something operational.

...

The CIA was among the earliest to tackle the problem {of energy}. The "insectothopter," developed by the agency's Office of Research and Development 30 years ago, looked just like a dragonfly and contained a tiny gasoline engine to make the four wings flap. It flew but was ultimately declared a failure because it could not handle crosswinds.

Agency spokesman George Little said he could not talk about what the CIA may have done since then. The Office of the Director of National Intelligence, the Department of Homeland Security and the Secret Service (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/U.S.+Secret+Service?tid=informline) also declined to discuss the topic.

Ruh roh!

I've got my money on these things already being in existence. The government has a history of being ahead of the curve on some stuff, and considering that they had a working model 30 YEARS AGO, I find it highly unlikely that they were unable to work out the kinks in the intervening period. But YMMV.

[Slainte Mhath]

I'm sure the extra paranoid among us have already developed short range battery operated focused EMP pulse generators disguised as chapstick to deal with this menace.

"Subject is applying lip balm..." BZZZT! "What the hell?! Dragonfly is down, repeat, Dragonfly is down!!"

[Mark Asher]

If DARPA really wants to get this technology off the ground, they'll give it away to the porn industry. Imagine the celebrity sex videos they could get with dragonfly cams!

[Midnight Son]

TMZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!

[Linoleum]

I've got my money on these things already being in existence. The government has a history of being ahead of the curve on some stuff, and considering that they had a working model 30 YEARS AGO, I find it highly unlikely that they were unable to work out the kinks in the intervening period. But YMMV.

A working model of what was essentially a tiny, uncontrollable, model airplane that couldn't handle a fan at an right angle in a lab environment.

There's a reason people are experimenting with adapting live, actual insects: implementing the control surfaces and hardware necessary to run the brains is a daunting challenge on the hardware level alone. Then you have to try and make the flight software, because you can't fly something like that manually.

Of course, if you're using a real insect, then you have the control issues of making it do what you want. That's a whole different can of worms.

Regardless of a biological or mechanical carrying body, you still have the issue of your sensor suite, yes, you can make it small, but how are you going to power it?

Even once you have that licked, how are you going to communicate? Especially considering the really really tight power constraints you are operating under. There are billions of R&D dollars being poured into improving spread spectrum links in a modern RF environment.

Past a certain point, suggesting the government has sekrit technologies that outperform Qualcomm is just as silly as suggesting that the NSA has computers in the basement using .25nm CPUs that Intel won't be able to fab for another decade.

[Jasper]

And it's seriously far away from being field-ready.
Why are you so sure? The cutting edge on this sort of thing isn't exposed publicly, and cell phones (with their low cost ceiling and need to make profit) aren't a good analog.

I have no idea about what the people above saw (it does seem odd, but it's easy to get false observations), but there is a lot of research going on in this field right now -- specifically for spying, which the government admits a keen interest in.

My gut feeling from the research I've read about is that they're not quite there yet, but that's in no way clear, and I'd bet that within 5-10 years such tools will be available.

If the protesters were worried about being spyed on, they should be more concerned with shotgun microphones, traffic cameras, and spy satellites that are being directed by a sinister beaurocrat played by Jon Voight.
Agreed. There are better ways to do such surveilance, even if dragonfly cams are available. Simply infiltrating protest organizations for example, which the FBI has a proven penchant for.

[JeffL]

I'm not sure that I can buy some super secret spying technology being used on a domestic march, with the inherent risk of someone knocking it down and taking it home (10 feet off the ground? That small yet close enough you could see spheres on its back? Anything that close is in real risk of being grabbed.)

And of all things to spy on - how hard is it to take pictures and listen in to people in a march without being seen with current technology?

This sounds like Art Bell fodder. ;)

[Jason McCullough]

Past a certain point, suggesting the government has sekrit technologies that outperform Qualcomm is just as silly as suggesting that the NSA has computers in the basement using .25nm CPUs that Intel won't be able to fab for another decade.

You know the constraint on Intel fab size is profitability, right? I suspect the NSA could get anything they want if they pay for it.

[JeffL]

You know the constraint on Intel fab size is profitability, right? I suspect the NSA could get anything they want if they pay for it.

Nope. Worked with Intel until recently on development of 32 and beyond. Constraints are still design and performance and things like dielectric constraints. For whatever thats worth to this discussion.

[Linoleum]

Why are you so sure? The cutting edge on this sort of thing isn't exposed publicly, and cell phones (with their low cost ceiling and need to make profit) aren't a good analog.

When it comes to the hardware necessary for a solid communications link in an urban environment, sure they are. Especially considering the bandwidth you'd need to make any such platform useful for video, or even still photographic recon. Even assuming you've got some ultra-keen CCD arrays that are better than anything available in the civilian world, how are you going to transmit the data stream? If you're trying to compress to meet bandwidth restrictions how are you going to find the computational power under extreme size and power limitations?

[Jasper]

I guess we'll just have to disagree. IMHO the cost constraints on cell phone technology are a significant hindrance, and assuming something like the NSA is limited to publicly available technology is misguided.

Simply attaching a very thin wire for power and data transmission would go a long way. It's also not clear to me that some sort of miniature low power directional wireless isn't already feasible (for projects without market constraints) -- which would be easily enough to transmit low res video for navigation, and high res photos for identification.

Moreover, you wouldn't necessarily even need video, as you could guide positionally (triangulating from two known beacons), or from a remotely placed viewpoint (as radio controlled planes are).

From what I've seen, all the components are right on the cusp of being developed in the private and university research sectors, and it's not such a stretch to think the government spy agencies are a step ahead in their field of expertise, and the main barrier is likely to be working out engineering kinks.

Again, my gut feeling is that it's not yet feasible, but will be soon.

[Aeon221]

A working model of what was essentially a tiny, uncontrollable, model airplane that couldn't handle a fan at an right angle in a lab environment.

There's a reason people are experimenting with adapting live, actual insects: implementing the control surfaces and hardware necessary to run the brains is a daunting challenge on the hardware level alone. Then you have to try and make the flight software, because you can't fly something like that manually.

Of course, if you're using a real insect, then you have the control issues of making it do what you want. That's a whole different can of worms.

Regardless of a biological or mechanical carrying body, you still have the issue of your sensor suite, yes, you can make it small, but how are you going to power it?

Even once you have that licked, how are you going to communicate? Especially considering the really really tight power constraints you are operating under. There are billions of R&D dollars being poured into improving spread spectrum links in a modern RF environment.

Past a certain point, suggesting the government has sekrit technologies that outperform Qualcomm is just as silly as suggesting that the NSA has computers in the basement using .25nm CPUs that Intel won't be able to fab for another decade.

Ask the CIA, they're the ones doing it, not me. Unlike me, with my thousand dollars a month budget, they've got millions of dollars and they've had thirty years to mess around learning how to do all that stuff.

Declaring something impossible just because you or I or any of us here don't know how to do it is pretty silly, no? Lack of evidence does not constitute proof and all that.

[Lizard_King]

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!

[Flowers]

Just put cameras on regular flies and let them use their patchouli oil guidance systems, if you want to monitor hippies. No need to have fly driving software, everyone we want to watch is filthy anyway.

Either way, it's a bad idea to have expensive technology that betrays your presence floating around where anything sticky or anyone with a net can capture it. Human beings might be conditioned to ignore a lot of things, but insects always seem to catch the eye here in North America. Maybe it's different in Sally Struthers's videos, I don't know.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

And of all things to spy on - how hard is it to take pictures and listen in to people in a march without being seen with current technology?

Yeah, this is the key. Dragonflies that take pictures would be a pretty clever idea if some joker hadn't already invented video cameras. There might be situations where this kind of Totally Spies gadgetry would be useful, but covering a large march down a public street is not one of them. Besides, do you really want cameras rolling while the cops use their experimental ultrasound pain generators?

[Aeon221]

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!

Evidence of the absence of evidence is not the absence of the evidence of absence.

Shit, I'm so confused. If I bend over, will you forgive me?

[Linoleum]

I guess we'll just have to disagree. IMHO the cost constraints on cell phone technology are a significant hindrance, and assuming something like the NSA is limited to publicly available technology is misguided.

After a certain point, you can't do something for any amount of money. In some fields, industrial R&D does far outstrip what even the US Government can afford to spend in black programs. It's one step removed from hand-waving about using captured alien technology.

Simply attaching a very thin wire for power and data transmission would go a long way.

How long of a wire do you expect to be able to attach to an object weighing less than a gram?

It's also not clear to me that some sort of miniature low power directional wireless isn't already feasible (for projects without market constraints)

Assuming you had the capability on the downlink, the tracking would be a *significant* challenge. The best way to do it would be....with a UAV.

If the government could work around the FAA restrictions on UAVs in urban airspaces, they wouldn't need some magical dragonfly to begin with.

Moreover, you wouldn't necessarily even need video, as you could guide positionally (triangulating from two known beacons), or from a remotely placed viewpoint (as radio controlled planes are).

If you don't have video, what's the point as a surveillance platform? And for that matter, if you're planning on using it internationally in remote covert situations, how do you intend to operate the infrastructure for differential positioning support? Or in a building? Why are you spending billions of dollars for something that can only be used in carefully controlled domestic environments when there are cheaper alternatives?

From what I've seen, all the components are right on the cusp of being developed in the private and university research sectors, and it's not such a stretch to think the government spy agencies are a step ahead in their field of expertise, and the main barrier is likely to be working out engineering kinks.

Which components? Might I add, systems integration is a bitch. We're talking about a device which would be blue-sky in the following areas:

Powerplant (density, efficiency)
Flight Control (making the control software work at all, interfacing autonomous control, stability control with manual control inputs, dealing with control input loss due to communications drop out)
Communications hardware (antenna design, power requirements, robust spread spectrum implementation)
Computational hardware (power efficiency, computational capability: flight control, spread spectrum signal encoding/decoding, sensor system processing
Sensors (power efficiency, resolution, size)

The development cost of this piece of state-of-the-art technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RQ-4_Global_Hawk) was around 4.5 billion dollars. It involved hundreds of engineers across a span of disciplines.

Our dragonfly in each of it's engineering subsystems is far more challenging than it's UAV equivalent, and you think there are a few people kicking around in a basement at Langley that have whipped it up?

Again, my gut feeling is that it's not yet feasible, but will be soon.

My gut would be 2020ish, and would involve a fair bit of biotech that doesn't exist yet.

And it most cases it would still be easier to use a UAV.

[Lizard_King]

Evidence of the absence of evidence is not the absence of the evidence of absence.

Shit, I'm so confused. If I bend over, will you forgive me?
I was just quoting the Boondocks quoting Donald Rumsfeld, as interpreted by Samuel Jackson playing a cartoon white man. It seemed appropriate (http://www.adultswim.com/video/?episodeID=d01430440d13ad01b30c207310a6c1fe).

[Aeon221]

I was just quoting the Boondocks quoting Donald Rumsfeld, as interpreted by Samuel Jackson playing a cartoon white man. It seemed appropriate (http://www.adultswim.com/video/?episodeID=d01430440d13ad01b30c207310a6c1fe).

That was the best cartoon ever.

[Brian Rucker]

That was the best cartoon ever.

/sign

[Jasper]

An interesting article about research at Oxford:
The system which can transmit video to a receiver several hundred meters away...

Using new components, the Oxford team slimmed its video system down to 13 grams, not quite as heavy as three nickels.
They add that most of the weight is from batteries (theirs' had a 38 minute life), which could obviously be cut down by shortening operating time. This is low budget research stuff too, and I think it's reasonable that bigger budget spy agencies can do better.

I've seen recent public research on the surprising ease of controlling insects electronically as well, and with the such light weight cameras I'd revise my prediction, and guess there is a 50% chance such surveillance is feasible now, albeit with short range and battery life.

Also, spying on a demonstration seems like the perfect place to test such new tools out; if I'd just gotten hold of them that's exactly what I'd do. Sure it'd be easier to use other methods, but it'd make a good field test, and any reaction would give an idea for how easily such surveillance is spotted.

[Lizard_King]

That was the best cartoon ever.
Is the best cartoon. Is. Apparently they have just begun a season 2.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to more Boondocks. Although I have to say, my perspective on that "Xbox Killer/Convenience Store" episode has really changed. When I first saw it, it was hilarious. When I went back to it later, it wasn't enjoying it as much, and eventually it dawned on me that it was because nothing it satirized had been abandoned in the intervening period. It was making me sad and disgusted instead of entertaining me. Maybe sometimes the real world is too ugly for commentary.

Edit: This is P&R and not EE, right? I'm just making sure. Okay, good.

[Aeon221]

Is the best cartoon. Is. Apparently they have just begun a season 2.

Woot.

[Lizard_King]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to more Boondocks. Although I have to say, my perspective on that "Xbox Killer/Convenience Store" episode has really changed. When I first saw it, it was hilarious. When I went back to it later, it wasn't enjoying it as much, and eventually it dawned on me that it was because nothing it satirized had been abandoned in the intervening period. It was making me sad and disgusted instead of entertaining me. Maybe sometimes the real world is too ugly for commentary.
The only thing I can compare it to is political Bloom County strips at their finest. The "Wimp Or Shrimp" election lever one is particularly poignant these days. But Bloom tended to have softer edges. McGruder writes like a fork to the eyeball.

Edit: This is P&R and not EE, right? I'm just making sure. Okay, good.
What, are you serious? EE is the one with Kunikos and friends bitching about it not being P&R. Duh.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

The Soul Food/Crackhouse one is still funny, though. Sure, all that stuff hasn't changed either, but I'm more used to it. Maybe in ten years, the Forever War will feel routine. Then again, maybe at that point only Jerry Seinfeld will be considering it viable material.