Late to the Party - The Batlle fo Westnoth (Fantasy TBS)

[Mike Hussey]

I'd seen th open source game 'Battle of Westnoth' on a few sites in the past, but had never got round to trying it, but last week I thought I'd give it a go and have been pleasantly surprised to discover what a great little game it is.

I'm probably preaching to the converted in the case of some of you, but for those who haven't tried it, it's a fantasy TBS in the style of SSI's old Fantasy General'. Individual battles take place on hex-gridded maps and units, which can gain experience, can be recalled in later scenarios of a campaign.

The latest version, 1.3.7 released in August, features online MP, hot seat and single player. The down;oadable version has a collection of skirmish maps, a random map generator and 12 single player campaigns, varying in length from five to twenty plus scenarios. More contentcan be downloaded in-game, mainly user desugned campaigns in various stages of development, although the ones I've tried have been playable..

Sound and graphics are primitive by todays's commercial game standards, but it certainly isn't ugly and is probably better in this respect than some shareware games. It will run on all versions of Windows and there are Mac and Linux versions. The main development team to just create the source code and other mebers of the community produce executables for their own favourite platform. On th PC side the minimun system requiremet is a 486, so I doubt if anyone can't run it. Personally I've had very few bugs, a graphical glitch that may have been caused by a corrupot sve in one instance and a problem with one of the campaign scenarios which has been fiexed in a fownload from the official forums. The AI is pretty good, although as always predicatble, it wull cwertainly hammmer you if you make too many mistakes.

The game is very addictive, has the good old 'just one more turn' feeling and I'd certainly recommend this one to any TBS fans who haven't tried it and any old hands who haven't looked at it recently.



Main site (info, screenshots and forums) -

http://www.wesnoth.org

Executable downloads

http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Download#Development_.281.3_branch.29

Postscript: Checking these links I notice that they have released Version 1.3.8 today (Sep 21st), but don't have a Windows install yet. Mac OSX and Linux downloads in the above link are the new version.

[EvilIdler]

I've been pondering a permanent server for this and other open source games.
I also find Steam to be a perfect game launcher nowadays, plus the community
thing makes it easier to organise games. There's an event calendar there.

[Jason Lutes]

Glad to hear you discovered it. Wesnoth is great. It has some quirky mechanics, but I love it and have played through a number of the campaigns. Previous discussion of it here is scattered across various threads about turn-based strategy games.

Obligatory self-promotion: back when I had more free time, I did a bunch of unit portraits for Wesnoth, mainly for all of the main characters my favorite campaign, "Liberty."

[Alan Au]

Generally speaking, it's a great game. As it's an open-source project, the game keeps getting better slowly over time. For example, the graphics are getting marginally nicer with every subsequent release. The main criticism I've seen of the game is that there's a bit of a positive-feedback loop slippery-slope when it comes to difficulty; if you're doing well the game gets easier, and if you're doing poorly the game gets harder.

- Alan

[Quitch]

I very much enjoyed my time with Wesnoth, but a couple of things have stopped me going back:

1. The skirmish AI is too easy.

2. The campaign's rely on you leveling X units with each mission... but you won't know how many you should be aiming to level until you see what's in the mission after, or even the one after that. It leads to a nasty game of reload if you find you didn't level enough guys.

Still, a superb TBS, and free too! The graphics are perfect, no pratting about with finding the right camera angle, and every unit is wonderfully distinctive.

[Iron Xides]

I don't like Wesnoth, at least in campaigns. It irritates me that it's a strategy game where I should be able to play without save/loading, but whenever someone dies I feel like I'm going to be hosed if I don't reload.

[Quitch]

That's pretty much my issue, the campaigns started to grate, but the AI isn't good enough in skirmish, and I can't be bothered with this in multiplayer when it needs me to sit around through other people's turns.

[Mike Hussey]

I don't like Wesnoth, at least in campaigns. It irritates me that it's a strategy game where I should be able to play without save/loading, but whenever someone dies I feel like I'm going to be hosed if I don't reload.

I can see what you're saying. but I think that's a criticism of this type of TBS rather than Westnoth in particular. It was same in the old SSI 'Gemeral' games as well and in the campaign games of the 'Steel Panthers' series too. Personally I like developing my units and trying to keep the good ones alive. but yes, if you don't keep enouh alive you can be hosed down the line.

[lesslucid]

I didn't like the fact that so much of the strategy of the game revolves around which units get leveled and when, so that rather than thinking about things like formations and positioning and risk/reward and terrain and suchlike, it's a question of "queuing" your attacks so that the "right unit" will acheive the kill of particular enemies... very "gamey", which I don't usually mind, but it feels like I'm gaming something rather strange and arbitrary (leveling up heals all damage instanteneously?) rather than a simulation of a battle. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great for what it is, and have enjoyed playing it, but it's not what I'm after in a TBS/wargame.

[Jason Lutes]

I didn't like the fact that so much of the strategy of the game revolves around which units get leveled and when, so that rather than thinking about things like formations and positioning and risk/reward and terrain and suchlike, it's a question of "queuing" your attacks so that the "right unit" will acheive the kill of particular enemies... very "gamey", which I don't usually mind, but it feels like I'm gaming something rather strange and arbitrary (leveling up heals all damage instanteneously?) rather than a simulation of a battle. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great for what it is, and have enjoyed playing it, but it's not what I'm after in a TBS/wargame.
That's a great criticism, and I agree that it's super gamey. It's pretty much the standard for games that involve levelling, though, so Wesnoth shouldn't really be singled out for it. I'd love to a design down the line that innovates in that particular area.

[Jasper]

I didn't like the fact that so much of the strategy of the game revolves around which units get leveled and when, so that rather than thinking about things like formations and positioning and risk/reward and terrain and suchlike, it's a question of "queuing" your attacks so that the "right unit" will acheive the kill of particular enemies... very "gamey", which I don't usually mind, but it feels like I'm gaming something rather strange and arbitrary (leveling up heals all damage instanteneously?) rather than a simulation of a battle. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great for what it is, and have enjoyed playing it, but it's not what I'm after in a TBS/wargame.
That's what killed it for me to, and I've always been surprised how into this game people are.

The tactics centered almost exclusively around funneling XP to particular units. This exists in similar games like Fire Emblem or Fantasy General as well, but not to the degree where it's the primary thing you focus on. I'd rather have battle strategy than an XP management sim.

This comes up in any strategy game where units get experience, but it's not so hard to deal with. I'm fond of simultaneous turns (so you can't funnel XP), giving XP for fighting instead of for killing, giving a pool of XP post battle/scenario that the player can distribute as he sees fit, and flatter power curves so there is less benefit to funneling.

[Damien Neil]

I got tired of funneling experience to the right units back when I was 12 and playing Ultima IV. Why does this mechanic still keep getting used? Yes, there's some degree of "realism" (to the extent possible in a game with levels) in giving experience to the unit that was engaged in battle, but is it ever fun to play silly games making certain that the right unit gets the kill?

[Quitch]

In a game where luck has been removed, sure, but not in Wesnoth, no.

[Iron Xides]

I can see what you're saying. but I think that's a criticism of this type of TBS rather than Westnoth in particular. It was same in the old SSI 'Gemeral' games as well and in the campaign games of the 'Steel Panthers' series too. Personally I like developing my units and trying to keep the good ones alive. but yes, if you don't keep enouh alive you can be hosed down the line.
It's not just trying to keep units alive, but as others have mentioned, it is heavily in your favor to make sure that only certain ones get to kill anything. This is because the XP for fighting an enemy one is (1*enemy's level), while killing them nets you (8*the enemy's level).

Also, I believe as the war goes on the General series, you get access to better units that serve as adequate replacements if your best units die, and can also get replacements for damaged units that only water down their experience, since each one represents a large unit. In Wesnoth, the only way to get nonscripted reinforcements is to recruit level 1 weaklings* and try and get them to survive when the campaign assumes you have a diverse array of level-2 and level-3 veterans working for you.

* It's possible that the campaigns allow you to recruit level-2 units eventually, but if it does, it never happens until those units are already too weak. And I'm not certain the game would, because the developers are very keen on this retarded "you must prepare yourself for future battles by upgrading enough of the right unit even with only the vaguest idea of what is to come."

[AndrewM]

I agree with the complaints about Wesnoth. I started playing, got a few missions in, and was having an insanely difficult time getting any further. Then I went to look at a strategy guide and it was all about "get X guys to level Y on mission 1, then Z to level Q on mission 2." I had another go at it, but as people have said, it felt very gamey, and I stopped playing.

Another problem is that the victory conditions are not really complete. Not only do you have to finish the stated goals, you also have to get your units to some level of advancement that is impossible to determine until some future mission.

[Jason Lutes]

Well, I understand those complaints, and I don't want to defend the less successful parts of the design, but I will say that most strategy guides are written using that sort of very specific approach, and it doesn't mean that's the only way to play the game. I think the unit-level-focus problem with Wesnoth is negatively augmented by a lot of the campaigns, most of which were written by and for the hardcore community. They can be really frustrating. But I've played at least three different campaigns to completion without having to reload from saves, using a balanced levelling approach, and it seemed to work fine.

[Mike Hussey]

* It's possible that the campaigns allow you to recruit level-2 units eventually, but if it does, it never happens until those units are already too weak. "

It depends on the campaign, there were 12 in the last version and a lot more in the 'download' list. In the 'Liberty' campaign that Jason mentioned, for instance, you get to recruit level 2 outlaws and mages later in the campaign. It pretty much seems to be up to the campaign designer.

I agree that if a campaign requires a certain number of units to be levelled, some indication should be given. If not in the victory conditions, perhaps in the gneral chit-chat between the characters at the start of the scenario.

A quick question for those of you who have been playing for a while. I keep seeing references on the web site and tin heir forums to the 'original cmapaign' Am I right in assuming that this the 'Heir to the the Throne' campaign?

[Jason Lutes]

A quick question for those of you who have been playing for a while. I keep seeing references on the web site and tin heir forums to the 'original cmapaign' Am I right in assuming that this the 'Heir to the the Throne' campaign?
I'm pretty sure that's what it refers to, unless there was some earlier campaign that didn't survive through to the current build. I do know that "Heir to the Throne" is the oldest campaign on the in-game campaign menu.

[Mike Hussey]

Thanks Jason. It must be then, the context I've seen it mentioned in implies that it's one of the existing campaigns,

[Quitch]

Yes, Heir To The Throne is the "original", the oldest, and certainly one of the best developed and balanced.