The Best 4X game ever (and why)!

[davidf]

Never done a poll before, thought I would give it a shot, since I've never seen this poll before.

Besides Civilization, which 4X game stands as the pinnacle of the genre. For me it was Empire of the Fading Suns. Great movies with vanity endings, great story, amazing music, and the best diplomacy system I've ever seen in a game like this. Also it's a full 4X game in space, and on each planet you explore! :)


Sadly ran out of poll slots so, great titles like Starships Unlimited, Imperium Galactica, and Sword of Stars had to be trimed from the list, and you'll have to use "Other" catgory

[Grifman]

I have to go with Sword of the Stars now after the Born of the Blood Expansion. Prior to that I would have said GalCiv but this has all my attention now. It's that good.

[davidf]

I really struggled with what to trim off the list, but I stuck to a list of games that have been out for awhile since they have shown they have legs and keeping power. :) Sword of Stars is still realively new, and I trimmied it from my poll solely based on the fact that it may be still considered to be on the honeymoon stage for some pundits , being a recent comer and all. :)

[Ryan A]

I trimmied it from my pole

Did it hurt?

[Iron Xides]

I haven't played any of these very much, except for Civ, so I didn't vote.

But why is Civilization off the poll? That makes it seem like you don't really want to know what we think; what if it turns out a sizable minority prefer, say, GalCiv? You've eliminated that possibility without cause.

[davidf]

Its to easy if you put civ on the poll, everyone knows it, loves it, sold a billion copies, it would win hands down.

I really wanted to hear from fans of the genre what was their favorite was, other than the mainstream popular choice. Its easy to put Civ down without much thought, but remove it and you have to puase and really think about your choice, if you already haven't

[cliffski]

galciv, just about complex and geeky enough without seeming like hard work. plus wicked sense of humour.

[Iron Xides]

Its to easy if you put civ on the poll, everyone knows it, loves it, sold a billion copies, it would win hands down.

I really wanted to hear from fans of the genre what was their favorite was, other than the mainstream popular choice. Its easy to put Civ down without much thought, but remove it and you have to puase and really think about your choice, if you already haven't

You don't know that for sure until you've asked the question.

[davidf]

galciv is 2nd on my list, if not just for the for a very cool B5 Mod. :) I'm very hopeful regarding the Civ B5 mod as well in the works...

[Qenan]

Does Alpha Cenauri count as the Civ series?

I voted for Master of Orion I, even though the series isn't that great. But the first one was.

[MikeJ]

I have to go with Sword of the Stars now after the Born of the Blood Expansion. Prior to that I would have said GalCiv but this has all my attention now. It's that good.

SotS definitely deserves more than score Tom gave it, and the improvements through the patches and the expansion have been very nice. Still, it's missing too much to be at the 'pinnacle' of 4X. In Civ, there's a real character to your cities. You shape the landscape, build great wonders, etc, etc. In SotS, your star systems don't require much micromangement (good), but one is pretty much the same as the next (not so good).

[Nathan Phoenix]

I hate to see this go by series, because it means my vote for MOO 1 & 2 become a vote for MOO 3 as well. :(

[spiffy]

Personally I like the TotalWar series, but mostly because the 4x layer is there to drive really nice looking massive battles. In many ways they're inferior in AI and design to a lot of those other games up there, but satisfying battles is where I'm at, and the building of cities and planets again and again over time doesn't facinate me, really. It's the clashing of armies and expansion of empire that does.

[Eduardo X]

I'm really into the Age of Wonders games. No other game gives the sense of awe that AoW does, where I see my hero level up and actually get the sense that he or she is kicking ass in a world not unlike Middle Earth.

[Kalle]

No SMAC option? FAIL!

[talsworthy]

Does Stars! count - if so that was one which well and truly hooked me in for years.

Tals

[Alex Handy]

Spaceward Ho!

[Sarkus]

I voted MOO series because in a game by game ranking I suspect MOO I and MOO II would both be in the top ten while I can't say that about the other series mentioned.

As much as I like some of the other games mentioned, what the first two MOO games share with the Civ series is that they are both easy to pick-up after a long lay off. In other words, they are easy to learn but hard to master. As much as I like GalCiv2, for example, I'm actually afraid to go back to it right now because I know after several months away I will have to re-learn a lot of the basics.

[Robert Sharp]

I choose Dominions, despite the fact that I actually LIKE MoM better. The poll asked which was best, and I think Dominions is the best because of its excellent multiplayer aspect and the insane variety of units, nations, spells, etc. There's just so much STUFF to it. The only downside is that turns take WAY too long by midgame. But still...so much stuff!

[corpsman]

I have no idea what "4X' means... [?]

[Qenan]

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4x

[Jab]

I'm really into the Age of Wonders games. No other game gives the sense of awe that AoW does, where I see my hero level up and actually get the sense that he or she is kicking ass in a world not unlike Middle Earth.

How is age of wonders 2? I have a copy from a long time ago that I never got around to play, and is the expansion good?

[malkav11]

Of the things actually on the poll I'd be torn between Master of Orion II and Master of Magic, both of which I love in largely different ways. Space Empires IV looks pretty neat but leaves me a bit bewildered with all the options. The GalCiv games...I have 1 and it didn't hook me. II looks better, but it's still too expensive to try. Empire of the Fading Suns left me totally and utterly lost from the moment I fired it up. I haven't played any of the others, although I keep meaning to poke at the Dominions series.

My actual top 4X game, head and shoulders above the rest including the Civilization series proper, is Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. It's just too awesome. Every faction plays so differently, customizable units, territory, politics, the UN, multiple disparate victory conditions, cities on the ocean, and of course the vagaries of the semi-sentient Planet you're exploring. Plus everything I liked about Civ like tech research, wonders (sorry, Secret Projects), etc. Also, being able to beat other factions into subservience instead of completely wiping them out? Awesome. The expansion made it even better.

[Jason Lutes]

How is age of wonders 2? I have a copy from a long time ago that I never got around to play, and is the expansion good?
Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic (aka AoW 2.5) is a fantastic game.

[Ed Solomon]

I'm with Kalle, failing to include SMAC is a grievous oversight that invalidates your whole poll. And including Star Trek: Birth of the Federation but not SMAC is fucking criminal. SMAC is the finest 4X game ever made.

[Grifman]

SotS definitely deserves more than score Tom gave it, and the improvements through the patches and the expansion have been very nice. Still, it's missing too much to be at the 'pinnacle' of 4X. In Civ, there's a real character to your cities. You shape the landscape, build great wonders, etc, etc. In SotS, your star systems don't require much micromangement (good), but one is pretty much the same as the next (not so good).

But Civ wasn't on the list :)

[drdoalot]

My vote is for MOO 2, not 3. I really want to vote for GalCiv, but no 4X game ever had combat I found as fun as MOO 2. GalCiv + MOO 2 combat would be my dream.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

The trouble with SotS for these purposes is that it is not, nor does it pretend to be, a full-featured 4X game in the conventional sense.

I had a Galciv campaign going where I was naming everything after Qt3 stuff, but it ended in a boring certain defeat because I wasn't used to abundant planets. I colonized recklessly, destroyed my budget, and wound up with a mere handful of worlds, surrounded on all sides and menaced by several extorters. Next time: the good planets first, not the Q4/hazard slimeballs "before somebody else gets 'em." Playing on super-rare everything has given me some baaad habits.

[jpinard]

I almost think it's not fair singling any of them out, since I loved so many ( except MOO3 - man that sucked).

The Imperialism & Call to Power games were also quite good after being tweaked.

[Dave Weinstein]

MoO. The original.

I didn't like MoO 2, and didn't even try MoO 3, but I still play MoO on a reasonably regular basis after 14 years. Small - Impossible - 5.

[RichVR]

I voted for MoM because I still play it. I'd have gone for a single MoO, that being 2, but while I still play that as well, MoM is still my favorite. No disrespect to GalCiv. No, not at all. Just going with what I boot up when I feel a need.

[Peter Frazier]

Yet again, this is my yearly wish that someone would remake Emperor of the Fading Suns and maybe add an AI into it this time.
Absolutely classic game with so much potential.

[DennyA]

What was the 4X space colonization/conquest game on the C64?

[TurinTur]

Ack, i am torn between MoM and GalCiv2 Gold. :(

[davidf]

The Imperialism & Call to Power games were also quite good after being tweaked.

Never played Imperialism based off initial reviews. I did however play Call to Power, very forgettable for me, though I didnt play any fan made mods when it was first launched

[davidf]

Yet again, this is my yearly wish that someone would remake Emperor of the Fading Suns and maybe add an AI into it this time.
Absolutely classic game with so much potential.

Amen, I remember reviewing this game, and giving it mild marks at the time, because single player wise the AI was weak, an several serious bugs. I was so excited though that future game releases in the genre, would take this to the next level. Then....nada, RTS became the boom and we never heard from Fading Suns or any of the clones I was hoping for again.

[Beefeater1980]

EFS. The most engaging game of its sort I've played. I think it was based on the Machiavelli: the Prince engine which, ah, borrowed heavily from Civ.

Holistic now runs the series as a pen and paper roleplaying game I think. Which is a shame as it made for superb 4x fun.

[BobJustBob]

Never played Imperialism based off initial reviews.

Now what have you learned?

[Timemaster Tim]

Imperialism was a great strategy game. I remember playing the demo which limited the turns, and after reaching the end, I immediately went out and bought the game.

One of the great strengths as a strategy game was a lack of micromanagement even into the late game. With the control of production done through a simple set of sliders, there was a lot less fiddling per turn, yet it worked really well.

I know there was a lot of complaints about how "unrealistic" the troop movements were, but as an abstracted concept, it was fine.

The game also provided a good balance of military might, economic strategy combined with political machinations.

--

Oh, and I picked the MOO series (subtracting MOO3). MOM is hellishly enjoyable but hardly the pinnacle.

[DeepT]

I voted for Masters of Magic. I would have voted for MOO. However the rest of the MOO series didn't impress me in the least. So as a whole I didn't pick the MOO series.

I am surprised you didn't have VGA planets on the list. Isn't that the first 4x game?

[EdPerkins]

Hmm...

I have always liked Ascendancy from Logic Factory. I would love to see that one updated.

[Austen]

I'm with Kalle, failing to include SMAC is a grievous oversight that invalidates your whole poll. And including Star Trek: Birth of the Federation but not SMAC is fucking criminal. SMAC is the finest 4X game ever made.

I'm glad I read the whole thread, rather than immediately making this exact same post word for word.

Of the options that are there, I go for MOO/MOO2 (we won't speak of what happened next). MoM would have been my next choice of those that are included.

[davidf]

Damn, I did miss SMAC, remember adding it when I was going through the list of possibles in my head. Got lost in the 10 items scrub somehow. I would have slid something like Reach for the Stars off in favor of SMAC. Too bad you can't edit a poll :(

[wisefool]

Moo/Moo2 got my vote because they were fun and incredibly popular.

SoTS is a very worthy spiritual successor - You could rename it Moo4 and sell it next week without patches.

Imperialism has an elegant board-game feel to it. It's also got a cutthroat AI. Every turn matters. You calculate that if you get a worker then in 6 turns you can work that sheep resource to get clothing to upgrade your laborers etc etc etc. Of course, when I talk about Imperialism, I really mean Imperialism 2. It still works under XP but there's a minor cursor/windowing problem IIRC.

[uddi]

I'm disappointed that Reach for the Stars and Birth of the Federation both have no votes. Obviously, not disappointed enough to actually vote for them, but I enjoyed both of these games long ago. RftS was a bit number-heavy, and BotF had huge interface issues, but RftS had great exploration and BotF handled minor races better than any 4x that I've played. So while Master of Magic got my vote, I wanted to make sure these two get at least a touch of credit.

[Timemaster Tim]

Of course, when I talk about Imperialism, I really mean Imperialism 2. It still works under XP but there's a minor cursor/windowing problem IIRC.

Really? I tried to get it to install a couple of times and couldn't get past installation failures. Now I'm on Vista. Dare I try again?

[wisefool]

I *think* you may have to click W98 emulation or something. Or install DOSBOX, that probably rocks it.

[Funkula]

Never been able to choose between MOO2 and SMAC. Civ doesn't even come close. And I am at least a little surprised no one seems to like Birth of the Federation. It wasn't my favorite, but it had a great diplomacy system and a cool implementation of minor civs. What doomed it was the tech model and combat system. And GalCiv 2 was cool, but it just never got its hooks into me. Once again, tech and combat were its weak points.

[UncleSmoothie]

I'm disappointed that Reach for the Stars and Birth of the Federation both have no votes.

I dabbled with Star Trek nerdery as a youth, and I'm a huge 4X fan and I didn't even know that Birth of the Federation existed before I saw this poll.

[Warren]

I had a truly hard time deciding between Master of Magic and GalCiv. I have loved both, and given a choice, I'd play GalCiv II over MoM, but only because GalCiv II, being more modern, is easier to play and is more balanced. But when it comes to amount of play time I devoted to it, and just sheer FUN, I had to give the nod to Master of Magic.

I (mistakenly it turns out) assumed Alpha Centauri must have been considered part of the Civ series, by it's exclusion from the poll by the OP. Otherwise, SMAC/SMAX would have run away with my vote, at least.

[Warren]

What was the 4X space colonization/conquest game on the C64?

Well I THINK there may have been more than one that fits the bill.

Certainly, Reach For The Stars was on the C64, as that's where I first played it. And liked it so much, that it was the very first game I bought for DOS when I finally gave into the inevitable and bought a Tandy. The later version (circa 2000 I think?) was such a let down versus what I remembered of the earlier versions. Ah, the rose-colored glasses, even back then.

There was also Imperium Galactum from SSI. I played that one to DEATH.

And of course, perhaps you mean an entirely different one that my failing memory is dredging up atm.

And rather than add a third post because I answered before finishing <blush>:


I'm disappointed that Reach for the Stars and Birth of the Federation both have no votes. I'm disappointed that Reach for the Stars and Birth of the Federation both have no votes.

I STILL play BotF. IMHO, it does not deserve it's poor reputation. And as you might guess from my above response, the abortion that was the later Reach For The Stars wiped out the love I had for the original 8 bit version. But I echo your sentiment. Shame those titles don't get the love they once deserved.

[Lee Johnson]

SMAC is my write-in vote.

[davidf]

I slightly suprised that MOM is outpacing Galciv. I figured for sure that MOM would be coming in at least third despite its off and on praise from the online community,

[McBain]

I slightly suprised that MOM is outpacing Galciv. I figured for sure that MOM would be coming in at least third despite its off and on praise from the online community,

MoM is still a better game. No, it ain't perfect, but it's a damn good one.

That being said, GalCiv runs much better on a budget laptop than MoM/DOSBox does.

[Jab]

Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic (aka AoW 2.5) is a fantastic game.

Found a copy of it near me, going to pick it up. Is it better to play shadow magic first or Aow2? I didn't realize that it was made by the same company that did Overlord.


As for the 4x question, my experience with them is limited (didn't play TBS games until 2003). I would say SMAC, it really nailed the setting and the ability to customize units was great.

[grinningman]

Of the listed games I've played Moo 1 & 3 and Rebellion. I fired up Empire of the Fading Suns a couple of times but found it difficult to get into. The Galciv 1 & 2 and Space Empires IV demos didn't grab me. Moo1 is my favourite of these.

Alpha Centauri was fun, but it feels more like a civ-type game than a space 4x. I think Civ 4 is a better civ game than Alpha Centauri. Sword of the Stars is currently scratching my space 4X itch, I enjoy it as much as Moo 1.

[caesarbear]

There was also Imperium Galactum from SSI. I played that one to DEATH.


Awesome. My first introduction to the 4X genre.

[caesarbear]

Found a copy of it near me, going to pick it up. Is it better to play shadow magic first or Aow2? I didn't realize that it was made by the same company that did Overlord.
Go ahead and skip right to Shadow Magic. It's a TBS game not an RPG after all.

[Qenan]

Hmm...

I have always liked Ascendancy from Logic Factory. I would love to see that one updated.

It was beautiful for the time, but the AI was terrible, to the point that I couldn't play it. There was just no opposition.

[EdPerkins]

It was beautiful for the time, but the AI was terrible, to the point that I couldn't play it. There was just no opposition.

They did add the "THE ANTAGONIZER" AI patch "for experienced Ascendancy players who want a greater level of hostility and difficulty"

[Igor Muravyev]

SMAC is missing?

[Desslock]

There was also Imperium Galactum from SSI. I played that one to DEATH..

I put hundreds, if not thousands, of hours into Imperium Galactum. To the point that it permanently changed the way I view the word "accepted", since you'd constantly try to get the AI to agree to something, asking thousands of times, until you finally got "accepted" -- the word became a rare treat forever.

I played a lot of the first MOO, and liked it a lot, but never bothered with any 4x game since.

[Chris Nahr]

I was convinced that I too played Imperium Galactum to death... but now that I did a web search I might have been thinking of Norm Koger's Stellar Crusade (http://home.austin.rr.com/normkoger/crusade.html) instead. Or maybe both!

[Timemaster Tim]

It was beautiful for the time, but the AI was terrible, to the point that I couldn't play it. There was just no opposition.

But the artwork was wonderful, and the musical score was one of the best I've ever heard for any videogame. Logic Factory did follow that up with another game, "The Tone Rebellion" which I also got. It was an odd sort of RTS type of game that i never really quite understood or got into.

I just checked their website, and they have some things under development. An RPG called "Seeker", and an "Ascenancy II" which will be online multiplayer.

[Lunch of Kong]

Alpha Centauri should have been on this poll.

[Eduardo X]

Go ahead and skip right to Shadow Magic. It's a TBS game not an RPG after all.
Yeah, Shadow Magic really is the best of the series.

Nice call on the Total War series, too, though I like my 4x games a bit more Civ-like.

[BlakeD]

Without a question SMAC. Finest 4X game I've ever played.

[Brian Rucker]

I'd say my favorite is Fading Suns simply because the design did a wonderful job bringing out the peculiarities of the setting and its complex politics.

Rebellion's another design where the folks working on it knew and cared greatly about bringing a real fidelity to the setting into the actual gameplay. This is something you see so much less of these days. Devs seem to aim mainly at some cute gimmrick and then slather some genre over it just so the graphic designers and writers have something to work with.

But I'm not sure that qualifies a game to be the "Pinnacle of 4X design."

I'd say, based on what I've played, that for pure 4X mechanics and longevity of gameplay, that's the essence of depth, you have to go with either Alpha Centauri or Dominions III even if I'm somewhat less enchanted with them, overall, than Rebellion or Fading Suns.

Voting Dominions.

[malkav11]

I'd forgotten about it, but I also have a great fondness for Sid Meier's Colonization. Very different take on the genre and surprisingly faithful to the historical era.

[Hugin]

SMAC. Also SMAC. But, barring that, MOO2. I loved MOO2. But really, SMAC.

[DoomMunky]

Man! This has got me all excited to play GalCiv2 again! Thanks!

[Tom Chick]

SotS definitely deserves more than score Tom gave it

Not to pick on you, Mike, but people do this all the time when they talk about reviews. The number is the least of what I had to say about Sword of the Stars. Personally, I don't give two goddamn wooden nickels what number someone wants to stick on a game if he's going to bother to actually explain himself. So I tell you what: Sword of the Stars can have an eleven. But I stand by everything I wrote. How's that?

Anyway, sorry for the mini-screed... :(

I love that this is a public poll. We can see that Yurislave accidentally voted for Star Wars: Rebellion. Ha ha!

As for me, assuming you're taking Civ off the table, I'd be hard-pressed to choose between Brian Reynolds' Alpha Centauri for the sheer amount of personality it had, and Imperialism II for its razor-sharp and almost flawless design. But in the end, I'd probably pick Imperialism II. Damn, that game was good.

-Tom

[caesarbear]

I was convinced that I too played Imperium Galactum to death... but now that I did a web search I might have been thinking of Norm Koger's Stellar Crusade (http://home.austin.rr.com/normkoger/crusade.html) instead. Or maybe both!
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9010/impgal1tz9.jpg
this is the Imperium Galactum that I played, in all it's graphical splendor.

[Jasper Phillips]

Setting matters most for me, and so Dominions 3 comes out on top, despite its micromanagement issues. I love the way Kristoffer Osterman materfully blended fantasy with mythology. I just wish it didn't take so long, so I actually had time to play it. :-(

Emperor of the Fading Suns is the game I'd most like to see done right though, as it's unfinished potential outshines anything I've yet seen. Make all the parts work, cut out the cruft, hack away the massive micromanagement, make it simultaneous turns with multiplayer between truly asymmetrical factions, allow playing at different points in the universes history. Man, I'm already salivating.

Honorable Mentions:
Age of Wonders 2
Imperialism 2
Alpha Centauri

[Saxman_72]

Galciv here - once I get my copy of Dominions 3, however, I may end up changing that opinion.

AoW: Shadow Magic gets an honorable mention.

[Chris Nahr]

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9010/impgal1tz9.jpg
this is the Imperium Galactum that I played, in all it's graphical splendor.

I remember that screen! Then I guess I really played both games. Which one had the civilization with the Community God?

[Desslock]

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9010/impgal1tz9.jpg
this is the Imperium Galactum that I played, in all it's graphical splendor.

I loved that beautiful game.

[Mind Elemental]

I love each of SMAC, Emperor of the Fading Suns, and Dominions 3. but they all try to be different things -- direct comparison between them is tricky.

What they do have in common is that they all had a strong sense of theme, atmosphere, setting, whatever you want to call it -- far more than a generic fantasy/space opera.

SMAC is definitely the most polished out of the three. It's also the closest to Civ (duh), and had some neat features: diplomacy, unit design, alterable terrain...

EFS had tremendous depth -- because of the two-layer map, planetary assaults were properly epic affairs in which you had to establish space superiority, secure a beachhead, and then keep shipping in more troops -- and some features that, had they worked, would have been unique (e.g. Church/League diplomacy). Of course, the key phrase is "had they worked"...

I don't think Dominions is a 4X: there's little exploration (the whole map is visible from the start, even if you can't see units/starting positions), and very little economic development or guns-or-butter decision-making compared to the others. It's far closer to a pure wargame, but it does that very well.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

I don't think Dominions is a 4X: there's little exploration (the whole map is visible from the start, even if you can't see units/starting positions)

You have to explore for sites, which I think counts. At least a little.


and very little economic development or guns-or-butter decision-making compared to the others.

This is true. It's like SotS that way. On the other hand, there's spell research, which gives me a warm Master of Magic feeling.

[jpinard]

Imperialism II for its razor-sharp and almost flawless design. But in the end, I'd probably pick Imperialism II. Damn, that game was good.

-Tom

Nice to see I'm not the only one who appreciated the game so much. The music was stellar as well.

[Spaced Cowboy]

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9010/impgal1tz9.jpg

I'm glad to see that I was not the only one that loved this one. I even DL'd a c64 emulator and tried to play it about 2 months ago. To easy to crash in the emulator and I did not even remember the commands.

[SirTomster]

Hey... What about the Leisure Suit Larry series? Cumon!

You eXplored for hot babes. You eXpanded (nudge nudge, wink wink). You eXploited those poor women. And then you eXterminated any Ho's who would not put out.

That is the 4X game of choice!

[Rorschach]

This thread has confirmed my thinking that as a mature genre 4X has enough variations and games that push the genre to have anyone find a game that they think is teh awesome (which may say more about the person than the game), and makes it very difficult to compare games head-to-head.

I'm pretty sure Tom mentioned something similar in a comparison of Company of Heroes vs. World in Conflict. RTS is another mature genre with wide variations.

[Warren]

I was convinced that I too played Imperium Galactum to death... but now that I did a web search I might have been thinking of Norm Koger's Stellar Crusade (http://home.austin.rr.com/normkoger/crusade.html) instead. Or maybe both!

Both for me :) I was in awe of Stellar Crusade. Too bad it took FOREVER to ACTUALLY finish a game of it. I think I only finished a handful. The idea of having to build stardocks to build up shipyard capacity to build larger ships that Stellar Crusade used has somehow stuck with me after all these years. That and the raiding convoy stuff. Too bad it didn't have a random map though. Along with the game length, the static map made it play out a bit too similar each time, once you'd played the two sides.

[Warren]

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9010/impgal1tz9.jpg
this is the Imperium Galactum that I played, in all it's graphical splendor.

Brings a tear to my eye! <sniff>

[Timemaster Tim]

Nice to see I'm not the only one who appreciated the game so much. The music was stellar as well.

I liked naming my units and watching them improve. Timemaster Tim's 1st Imperial Dragoons!!!!

[Hugin]

This thread has confirmed my thinking that as a mature genre 4X has enough variations and games that push the genre to have anyone find a game that they think is teh awesome (which may say more about the person than the game), and makes it very difficult to compare games head-to-head.

I'm pretty sure Tom mentioned something similar in a comparison of Company of Heroes vs. World in Conflict. RTS is another mature genre with wide variations.

I think "anyone" is a dangerous word to use given the breadth of the videogame market. Civ was a tremendously popular series that 'crossed over' to some extent, but I'd argue 4X is still a pretty wonky, niche genre of game. "Conquering the world/turn based/war war war (yes I know these games generally have economic and diplomatic domination options, but realistically, there tends to be a lot of open warfare)" is just not a formula that appeals to a lot of folks, whether the setting is fantasy, historical, or sci-fi.

I mean, I love the things. But in my (anecdotal) experience, they're very male games that fall on the nerdy/wargamer/History channel end of things. Not big for parties, not big for kids, not big for wives, not big for portable gaming, etc.

[Qenan]

Favorite 4x games:
Master of Orion - in my opinion the best 4x game ever made.
Master of Magic - Unbalanced, perhaps, but brilliant and highly replayable.
SMAC - too much detail in the tech tree, but still an incredible game.
Civ 2 - For me, the best version of Civ ever made.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

I don't think Dominions is a 4X: there's little exploration (the whole map is visible from the start, even if you can't see units/starting positions), and very little economic development or guns-or-butter decision-making compared to the others. It's far closer to a pure wargame, but it does that very well.

Well, you need to explore for hidden gems and magic sites. The original Imperialism also had a revealed map, but you had to search for the iron and coal your empire required.

This thread did prompt me to reinstall Imperialism 2. I forgot how unstable that economy could be. Great game.

Troy

[wisefool]

Darn, if I find my copy we should totally host some LAN games. I never did manage to get people to play it online. I had dozens of ICQ numbers of people who owned the game but never enough, or people couldn't figure how to Kali / IPX it, or whatever magic you needed to do to run it over network.

[caesarbear]

This thread did prompt me to reinstall Imperialism 2. I forgot how unstable that economy could be. Great game.

Me too. Pity there's no pbem.

[Robert Sharp]

Imperialism 2 is good? I had no idea, though I vaguely remember someone mentioning that before. I have a copy around here somewhere, I'm pretty sure. Does it hold up well?

[Rorschach]

I mean, I love the things. But in my (anecdotal) experience, they're very male games that fall on the nerdy/wargamer/History channel end of things. Not big for parties, not big for kids, not big for wives, not big for portable gaming, etc.

Yes, I meant "anyone" in the conxtext of any person that plays 4X games. 4X isn't a mainstream genre by any means.

I would dig some portable gaming 4X though. Look at how well turn-based tactical games do on the portables.

[mutt]

Imperialism 2 is good? I had no idea, though I vaguely remember someone mentioning that before. I have a copy around here somewhere, I'm pretty sure. Does it hold up well?
Are you kidding? It's one of the best strategy games ever made; some people (like me) think it's the best. And it holds up just fine. The graphics were spartan even at the time it was released, so it's not like anybody's ever been judging it on that basis.

I don't think I've ever run across a more capable AI than Imperialism II's. Prepare to be challenged.

[Qenan]

It was way too hard, IMO.

[wisefool]

The strategic battle thought needed diversions once you hit forts -

you had to have one real attack force with 2-3 light cannon / cavalry and a diversionary force with at least 1 cannon / cav to force the defender to move troops.

The AI moved its troops after you did your own attack orders. it always struck me as a bit cheap cause I couldn't do that :)

[Jonathan Crane]

SMAC was probably the most enjoyable 4x game for me, especially with the coherent differences between the factions. However, I voted for Empire of the Fading Suns for the scope of what a 4x game could be.

The political maneuvering, the fact that the seat of power was an actual city, which could be occupied made the politics of the game feel much more concrete than a diplomacy screen with a variety of technology trade options. I loved that you had to use assasins in the capitol - it gave the entire game a lovely Dune feeling (which I'm sure was intentional) that subsequent 4x games have not captured. Some of this may also have been due to the scale - fewer worlds, and an actual geography for each planet made the battles seem more significant. The music and the setting were both quite compelling of course, but it was the game mechanics that stick in my mind after all these years. To be sure, the AI was terrible, and the execution lacking in a few areas, but it is a shame that the 4x model of EFS seems to have died with it.

[DoomMunky]

Man, BECAUSE OF THIS THREAD I got sucked into GalCiv 2 this morning, and a "I'll just play for 5 minutes" session turned into a "Crap, I'm late for work!" session.

I think I'm going to have to attack the Drengin for this atrocity.

[Nick Walter]

I don't think Dominions is a 4X: there's little exploration (the whole map is visible from the start, even if you can't see units/starting positions), and very little economic development or guns-or-butter decision-making compared to the others. It's far closer to a pure wargame, but it does that very well.

Yeah, I have to agree. Which is why dom3 didn't get my vote in this poll despite it being a game I have tons of time invested in and love dearly.

[lesslucid]

Man, BECAUSE OF THIS THREAD I got sucked into GalCiv 2 this morning, and a "I'll just play for 5 minutes" session turned into a "Crap, I'm late for work!" session.

I think I'm going to have to attack the Drengin for this atrocity.

Be honest. Have you ever said to yourself, "I'll just play this 4X game for five minutes..." and then actually played for five minutes?

[Greatatlantic]

Be honest. Have you ever said to yourself, "I'll just play this 4X game for five minutes..." and then actually played for five minutes?

If its a real 4x game, then its unimaginable to play for just 5 minutes. Taking a single turn should take longer then 5 minutes.

[caesarbear]

It's not the best 4x game, nor is it traditional, but I always had a love for the first Dune game. Not too many games in that style, which is a shame.

I played the PC version, but for those unfamiliar (and nothing better to do) here's an entire replay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpkVzKVwMvE).

[Marcus]

It's not the best 4x game, nor is it traditional, but I always had a love for the first Dune game. Not too many games in that style, which is a shame.

I played the PC version, but for those unfamiliar (and nothing better to do) here's an entire replay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpkVzKVwMvE).

Man that brings back so many memories. I loved that game to death.