Adios to The Vede

[Alan Dunkin]

I hear through the grapevine that The Vede is leaving PC Gamer (and I think today may be his last day).

If so, a happy good luck to you!

--- Alan

Edit: Yes, edited for content.

[Dean]

Did the Penny Arcade backlash cost him his job?

semicolon, dash, close parenthesis.

[Mark Crump]

Boy, I hate hearing about changes like this in this manner...

[Rob_Merritt]

If true, Good luck Greg. Wonder who will fill his shoes?

[Kevin Grey]

Maybe he's going to join the new company started by John Davidson who just left 1Up.

[Gary Whitta]

Good riddance to bad rubbish!

[Troy S Goodfellow]

So does Kristen move up or does Gary get a do-over?

Troy

[Alex Handy]

Does this mean Chuck's the new EIC?

[Mark Crump]

So does Kristen move up or does Gary get a do-over?

Troy

Chuck's the Senior Exec editor, but that's no guarantee of sucession.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

I always forget Chuck for some reason.

Troy

[RickH]

The long, slow death of the gaming enthusiast magazine continues (unsurprisingly) to slowly progress. Talent flight is definitely a warning sign, and it seems like mags are asking fewer and fewer staff to produce a full magazine's content.

[Matthew Gallant]

Uh oh Chuck, we got some non-believers out there!

[MindToyGames]

Good riddance to bad rubbish!

Since you write for that mag, isn't there supposed to be a "smiley" at the end of this? Or did you forget it? :)

[TheWombat]

The long, slow death of the gaming enthusiast magazine continues (unsurprisingly) to slowly progress. Talent flight is definitely a warning sign, and it seems like mags are asking fewer and fewer staff to produce a full magazine's content.

No joke. In the waning days of CGM, it was two editorial staff doing all of the full-time non-production work.

[RepoMan]

Since you write for that mag, isn't there supposed to be a "smiley" at the end of this? Or did you forget it? :)
It's hard to tell, isn't it? My first reaction to Whitta's post was "ouch", not "hee".

[Gary Whitta]

I should have inserted a smiley, I was of course just kidding. Vede is a great guy and I wish him the very best in his new porn career.

Seriously, it's like THAT big.

[Kunikos]

Does your girlfriend know you're that gay?

[fuzzyslug]

Seriously, it's like THAT big.

TMI, man. TMI.

[sventest]

Bigger and better things for the Vede eh? I remember when he was but a wee fan boy writing me letters complaining about reviews. My, they do grow up fast.

/tear

[Tyjenks]

Uh oh Chuck, we got some non-believers out there!

LOL!!! I am bustin out my cassette when I get home now. Is that '98? THat song is fully stuck in my head now and it makes me smile. P.E. in full effect, Boyyyyyy.

[RepoMan]

http://unrealities.com/qt3/spidey-vede-bigger.jpg

[Kunikos]

That is so going into the Facebook image gallery.

[Gary Whitta]

My admiration for Vede's penis is not gay, it's totally hetero-manly, the same way you'd admire a nice car or a well-tailored suit.

[Desslock]

Exactly. Anyone with a little class admires the Vede's penis. It usually goes without saying, but sometimes you just have to tell it like it is, courtesy be damned.

[z0diac]

LOL!!! I am bustin out my cassette when I get home now. Is that '98? THat song is fully stuck in my head now and it makes me smile. P.E. in full effect, Boyyyyyy.

You're about 10 years off there. Unless you're referring to the 98-Olds from "You're Gonna Get Yours"?

The first 2 PE albums still kill 99.9 percent of rap ever created.

[MindToyGames]

*highly disturbed wondering what goes on in PC Gamer's offices that such details are well known*

That comic was too funny, RepoMan. :)

[Gary Whitta]

*highly disturbed wondering what goes on in PC Gamer's offices that such details are well known*
Don't forget that Vede used to be my room-mate, too...

[MindToyGames]

Don't forget that Vede used to be my room-mate, too...

Oh. Well. Even so...your location says San Francisco, so I guess you get a pass. lol :)

[Kunikos]

My admiration for Vede's penis is not gay, it's totally hetero-manly, the same way you'd admire a nice car or a well-tailored suit.

...admire it in your ass. :D

[Lunch of Kong]

*highly disturbed wondering what goes on in PC Gamer's offices that such details are well known*

I bet someone claimed that the Lochness monster was a myth, and Vederman just had to prove him wrong.

[Kunikos]

You're about 10 years off there. Unless you're referring to the 98-Olds from "You're Gonna Get Yours"?

The first 2 PE albums still kill 99.9 percent of rap ever created.

I don't think the percentage is that high unless you restrict rap to MTV. EPMD and BDP killed it (in a good way).

[RepoMan]

Don't forget that Vede used to be my room-mate, too...
And we all know how much Desslock likes smoking, ahem, cigars. In only the most hetero-manly way, of course.

[Tyjenks]

You're about 10 years off there. Unless you're referring to the 98-Olds from "You're Gonna Get Yours"?

The first 2 PE albums still kill 99.9 percent of rap ever created.

Yep, that's what I meant. Forgot the name of the song, I should be ashamed.

[Alex Handy]

From Vede's penis, to Public Enemy... This thread has gone totally out of control.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Trident_D-5_out_of_control.jpg/778px-Trident_D-5_out_of_control.jpg

[Kunikos]

Even that picture has sexual innuendo in more than double entendre.

[Tom McNamara]

Perhaps Vede and his penis would care to make a statement?

[Desslock]

the gimp's sleeping.

[Aszurom]

oh god, it's the goatse polaris.

So... who's gonna dress in drag for the editorials now?

[Moggraider]

Maybe he's going to join the new company started by John Davidson who just left 1Up.


WTF!!! Why?

[Gary Whitta]

Perhaps Vede and his penis would care to make a statement?
Tune into today's PC Gamer Podcast and you will get your wish. Well maybe not the penis part...

[Jim Preston]

As a former Greg Vederman rommate, too, I don't even make the distinction between Vede and his penis.

[Gary Whitta]

WTF!!! Why?
Google "Ziff-Davis" and read some recent news stories about them...

[Moggraider]

Google "Ziff-Davis" and read some recent news stories about them...



I knew about the Ziff troubles but didn't think anyone would leave. This is awful.

[Tom McNamara]

As a former Greg Vederman rommate, too, I don't even make the distinction between Vede and his penis.

Should we start calling him The Venis?

[Aszurom]

Vede is secretly...
http://www.mindspring.com/~jonahnynla/JONAHF2.JPG

...The return of Jonah Falcon to games writing.

[RepoMan]

Should we start calling him The Venis?
Dunno. How venous is his penis? Is his penis from Venus?

[Supersport]

As a former Greg Vederman rommate, too, I don't even make the distinction between Vede and his penis.


Who hasn't been Greg's roommate?

Almost feeling left out here.

[Alan Dunkin]

According to the PC Gamer page the podcast isn't even up yet for yesterday because of some dinky storm or something.

I wasn't Greg's roommate. Thank God.

--- Alan

[Gary Whitta]

Yes, a storm created by Greg's massive wang.

BTW the PCG podcast with Vede's farewell message is finally up now if anyone wants to check it out.

[ElGuapo]

Don't forget that Vede used to be my room-mate, too...

Bill Dungsroman story, paging Bill Dungsroman story. . .

[Tyjenks]

Vede is secretly...
http://www.mindspring.com/~jonahnynla/JONAHF2.JPG

...The return of Jonah Falcon to games writing.

Nooooooo! Just as I had wiped his memory and that pic from my memory, it returns to haunt me once again.

[Robert Sharp]

Jonah will always resurface...when you least expect him and his member.

I think he starred in Touched by an Anal.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Just bumping this to say that Future has appointed Kristen Salvatore to fill the EIC slot.

Troy

[Moggraider]

Yay for hot female EICs at Future. Though I don't think there are any hot females on the PSM staff to replace Chris Slate, not that I want him out...

Gazuga forever!

[Rob_Merritt]

Just bumping this to say that Future has appointed Kristen Salvatore to fill the EIC slot.

Troy

Good choice.

[Shadari]

Kristen is pretty cute. But doesn't she play DS games more than PC ones? :(

[Rob_Merritt]

Kristen is pretty cute. But doesn't she play DS games more than PC ones? :(

Who doesn't these days?

[Shadari]

Who doesn't these days?
9 million WoW players?

[NowhereDan]

But doesn't she play DS games more than PC ones? :(
I've never seen her play a DS. If she does, she keeps it well hidden.

[Shadari]

I've never seen her play a DS. If she does, she keeps it well hidden.
Well yeah, they are pretty small. ;)

[RickH]

Yay for hot female EICs at Future. Though I don't think there are any hot females on the PSM staff to replace Chris Slate, not that I want him out...

Gazuga forever!

Slate stepped down at least an issue ago.

[NowhereDan]

Slate stepped down at least an issue ago.
Yup. That's Rob Smith's gig now.

[Rob_Merritt]

9 million WoW players?

I'm sure a few are probably catching pokemon while waiting for a party to start.

[Moggraider]

Slate stepped down at least an issue ago.

WHAT!? Wtf wtf. Who replaced him?

EDIT: Just found out. Rob Smith!? Wtf.

[Sidd_Budd]

If I remember correctly, Salvatore used to work for GFW (when it was Computer Gaming World). Maybe she's been a sleeper agent for Jeff Green during her whole time at PC Gamer. Now that she's EIC, he'll activate her subliminal programming, making him God-King of all PC gaming mags.

Probably not, but grats to her, and good luck to the Vede in his future gigs.

[Qessinge]

Congrats to Kristen, have enjoyed her work on both mags. And I disagree with notion that there is not a strong future for a market leader like PC Gamer... consolidation has happened and will continue to happen in alot of 'offline' businesses, not just magazines...

[Shadari]

So, it's a battle of the titans. Old man Green versus the cute Salvatore. Choose your allegiance and let the great war begin!

[metta]

That's great news! Maybe Kristen will break up the boys club bullshit at that magazine. Congratulations KS.

[John Reynolds]

So, it's a battle of the titans. Old man Green versus the cute Salvatore. Choose your allegiance and let the great war begin!

I'd rather have Steve back.

[Desslock]

Maybe Kristen will break up the boys club bullshit at that magazine.

"boys club bullshit" in a magazine run by Vederman? He's more of a "robot mascot" kind of guy. Just curious what you mean by that expression, and what you didn't like?

[fuzzyslug]

If I remember correctly, Salvatore used to work for GFW (when it was Computer Gaming World). Maybe she's been a sleeper agent for Jeff Green during her whole time at PC Gamer. Now that she's EIC, he'll activate her subliminal programming, making him God-King of all PC gaming mags.

Probably not, but grats to her, and good luck to the Vede in his future gigs.

Yes, that's correct and she moved over to PC Gamer fairly recently. I wonder how the rest of the staff took the promotion. I'm kind of surprised they didn't pick someone who had worked on the magazine for more than 6 months.

[Desslock]

I'm kind of surprised they didn't pick someone who had worked on the magazine for more than 6 months.

Kristen's been with PC Gamer for a year and a half, and obviously in the industry for longer. It ain't exactly a heavy industry job where the guy who gets to work the forklift is the guy who's been there the longest -- they pick the person who they think is best qualified for the position (among those who applied for it, obviously, and who knows who inhouse was even interested in the EIC gig - it's not for everyone). She has leet skillz.

[Supersport]

Kristen's been with PC Gamer for a year and a half, and obviously in the industry for longer. It ain't exactly a heavy industry job where the guy who gets to work the forklift is the guy who's been there the longest -- they pick the person who they think is best qualified for the position (among those who applied for it, obviously, and who knows who inhouse was even interested in the EIC gig - it's not for everyone). She has leet skillz.


I think somebody has a crush on somebody.

Seriously,

I think this is a good move and even though I like Vede, I think this might actually move PC Gamer into a more adult tone rather than the juvenile tone of the last few years.

[Papageno]

I've really enjoyed Kristen Salvatore (and the whole PC Gamer crowd) on the podcast.

[Jeff Green]

So, it's a battle of the titans. Old man Green versus the cute Salvatore.

Oh sure. *She's* the cute one. You guys suck.

[Rob_Merritt]

Oh sure. *She's* the cute one. You guys suck.

Would you rather us say Whitta is the cute one?

[RepoMan]

Earlier in this thread it was Vede who was the cute one.

Or who HAD the cute one, anyway.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Oh sure. *She's* the cute one. You guys suck.

Come on. We all know Ryan's the male model over there.

Troy

[Sidd_Budd]

Oh sure. *She's* the cute one. You guys suck.
Cute is overrated. And before you lump me in with everyone else, remember I want you to be God-King of all PC gaming mags, with a cute sleeper agent. It's better to be feared than loved.

[NowhereDan]

The staff took Kristen's promotion just fine. Everybody likes her, she's great to work with, and is certainly more than capable of running the show. As Desslock said, she's been here a while - she came on to replace Corey Cohen when he moved over to OXM. And before she was at CGW (she came over here just before they made the switch to GFW) she was at Maximum PC. She was just over there to bring the competition down from the inside.

[Albert Woo]

The staff took Kristen's promotion just fine. Everybody likes her, she's great to work with, and is certainly more than capable of running the show. As Desslock said, she's been here a while - she came on to replace Corey Cohen when he moved over to OXM. And before she was at CGW (she came over here just before they made the switch to GFW) she was at Maximum PC. She was just over there to bring the competition down from the inside. Kristen Salvatore: Double Agent!

[jpinard]

What company is Greg moving on to?

[Shadari]

What company is Greg moving on to?
He went to Voodoo (http://www.voodoopc.com/default.aspx).

[Moggraider]

Really? Oy. I'm looking at their site and I can't imagine anyone buying any of those incredibly overpriced systems. And they charge $62.40 to ship Half-Life 2: Episode 1 with a desktop.

[mono]

He went to Voodoo (http://www.voodoopc.com/default.aspx).

Why would a gaming editor move to a PC manufacturer, are they going to do self promoting podcasts or some such? I know Voodoo has a bigger budget since the HP aquisition, and the case on their new Blackbird rig is quite spiffy (and ludicrously expensive), but does anyone ever listen to, or take seriously, manufacturer marketing guys?

I guess he got a nice offer.

[Greg Vederman]

He went to Voodoo (http://www.voodoopc.com/default.aspx).

Basically right, though strictly speaking I went to HP, which now owns Voodoo. Here's the new product: www.hp.com/blackbird. It's much more competitively priced than a Voodoo PC.

I'm doing business development and marketing for them, and in my spare time I get to play games...just for fun, without having to worry what score I'd give them. :-)

Big congrats to Kristen -- she's going to be a spectacular EIC!

-Ron Jeremy

[Moggraider]

Yeah, the Blackbird is pretty awesome and it's the first time I was impressed by an HP machine. Here's hoping they keep it up.

[Mark Asher]

That Blackbird is over $5k! I could buy all the console systems PLUS a PC that would run games decently for that price. Is there really much of a market for high end gaming PCs anymore?

[Moggraider]

Yeah, and it only has 2 gigs of RAM, and onboard audio, which is inexcusable at that price. But if I was a rich, rich man, I'd probably buy it. Great design.

$5500. Full specs:

DETAILED SUMMARY
Processor
Intel® Core2™ Extreme Quad-Core 3.0GHz [QX6850] performance enhanced

* Quad Core
* 8MB of L2 cache
* 1333MHz

Memory
2 GB 800 MHz CORSAIR PC2-6400 DDR2 SDRAM
Four DIMM slots supporting up to 4 GB of main memory
256-bit-wide memory architecture

Graphics
Dual Nvidia GeForce 8800 Ultra with Nvidia SLI, with 756MB of GDDR3 SDRAM supports Dual-Link DVI
Dual-link DVI ports support up to 2560 by 1600 pixels.
Support for analog resolutions up to 2048 by 1536 pixels at 85HZ
DVI to VGA adapter included
Dual-display support for extended desktops and video cloning modes

Thermals
Full-System Liquid Cooling with a factory sealed cooling unit for both Processor and dual graphics cards.

Communication
Two independent 10/100/1000BASE-T Ethernet (RJ-45) ports that can support jumbo frames with low latency on gigabit connections

Storage
Five independent Serial ATA hard drive bays

System configured with
1 160GB 10,000 rpm SATA (Western Digital Raptor)
1 500GB 7200 rpm SATA
Dual Super multi-drive, slim slots with Lightscribe (DVD+/-R/RW+/-DL)

* Writes DVD-R discs at up to 16x speed
* Writes DVD+R DL discs at up to 4x speed
* Reads DVDs at up to 8x speed
* Writes CD-R discs at up to 40x speed
* Writes CD-RW discs at up to 24x speed
* Reads CDs at up to 24x speed


A single 5 1/4 bay available for optional drives
Electrical and environmental requirements

* Line voltage: 100-120V AC or 200-240V AC (wide-range power supply input voltage)
* Frequency: 50Hz to 60Hz single phase
* Current: Maximum of 12A (low-voltage range) or 6A (high-voltage range)
* Operating temperature: 50° to 95° F (10° to 35° C)
* Storage temperature: -40° to 116° F (-40° to 47° C)
* Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing
* Maximum altitude: 10,000 feet


Peripherals and audio
ADI onboard audio

Back panel:

* One PS/2 mouse port
* One PS/2 keyboard port
* Two eSATA ports
* One IEEE1394 port
* LCD screen (for diagnostics and status)
* LCD back light button (some boards only)
* SPDIF out and optical out port
* Two RJ-45 (Gigabit Ethernet) ports (number depends on MB)
* Four USB 2.0 ports (number depends on MB)


Top panel:

* 15 in 1 multi-card reader
* One IEEE1394 port
* Two USB 2.0 ports
* One 1/8" microphone jack
* One 1/8" headphone jack


Expansion slots (not all available in this configuration)

* 3 PCIe x16 slots (The two blue PCIe x16 slots operate with a full compliment of 16 PCI Express lanes, while the third white slot operates with only 8)
* 1 PCIe x1 slot
* 2 PCI v2.2 slots


Operating System and Software
Microsoft® Windows Vista™ Ultimate

Security
Grisoft AVG Professional (1 year)

Burning

* CyberLink PowerProducer
* CyberLink Power2Go


Size and weight

* Height: 598.64 mm (23.5 inches)
* Width: 266.96 mm (9 inches)
* Length: 557.23 mm (22 inches)
* Weight (full configuration): 72 pounds (32.659 kg)

[fuzzyslug]

The staff took Kristen's promotion just fine. Everybody likes her, she's great to work with, and is certainly more than capable of running the show. As Desslock said, she's been here a while - she came on to replace Corey Cohen when he moved over to OXM. And before she was at CGW (she came over here just before they made the switch to GFW) she was at Maximum PC. She was just over there to bring the competition down from the inside.

That's good to hear. My timing was basically based on the podcasts. It was interesting to hear her switch over from the GFW podcast to the PC Gamer one. It didn't feel like it was that long ago.

[Greg Vederman]

That Blackbird is over $5k! I could buy all the console systems PLUS a PC that would run games decently for that price. Is there really much of a market for high end gaming PCs anymore?

That's a limited-edition model. Configurable Blackbirds will go on-sale in the not-too-distant future, starting at around $2,500.

-Vede

[brainfromarous]

I think somebody has a crush on somebody.

Seriously,

I think this is a good move and even though I like Vede, I think this might actually move PC Gamer into a more adult tone rather than the juvenile tone of the last few years.

I wouldn't count on it.

[Raife]

Where have all the flowers gone?

[John Sansker]

That Blackbird is over $5k! I could buy all the console systems PLUS a PC that would run games decently for that price. Is there really much of a market for high end gaming PCs anymore?

Dude, a Falcon Mach V with the same specs clocks in at $6833.
Base price of the system (the Mach V) before tweaking it up to the Blackbird specs was $3389.
Look at the specs Moggraider listed and see where you could cut some corners, namely 2 8800 Ultras? That alone is $1500+ of the price of the Falcon.
The quad core CPU is another $1500+.

The "top-of-the-line" bragging rights Falcon clocks in at $19,513.71.

[malkav11]

Jesus. If ever I needed a reason for continuing to build my own systems, those price points would be more than sufficient. I also see where people are getting the idea that PC gaming is prohibitively expensive.

[Mark Asher]

Dude, a Falcon Mach V with the same specs clocks in at $6833.
Base price of the system (the Mach V) before tweaking it up to the Blackbird specs was $3389.
Look at the specs Moggraider listed and see where you could cut some corners, namely 2 8800 Ultras? That alone is $1500+ of the price of the Falcon.
The quad core CPU is another $1500+.

The "top-of-the-line" bragging rights Falcon clocks in at $19,513.71.

Wow -- $19.5k for a PC? That's a car! That's a brand new Harley!

Honestly, even spending $3k for a PC seems excessive, but I guess if you have the cash to burn, burn it.

[unbongwah]

I also see where people are getting the idea that PC gaming is prohibitively expensive.
Well, it's kinda like looking at the price tag on a Porsche and saying, "Jeez, cars are way too expensive! I'm just gonna ride the bus!" For most people, a Honda Civic is good enough; but if you've got the cash to burn...

EDIT: oh, and congrats to Kristen on becoming EiC, of course. Between her and Francesca Reyes over at OXM, this probably sets the record for female EiCs at US gaming rags. [Not sure how she'd feel about being described as cute first rather than talented, though.]

[Papageno]

Yeah, even spending upwards of 2k makes me feel extravagant, and for that kind of money I want it to be a pretty sweet rig (like 90% as good as these sooperdooper 133t rigs). Of course, what I want and what I get may be two different things--I suppose someone has to buy the 700 dollar video cards so that I can buy the 300 dollar one.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

EDIT: oh, and congrats to Kristen on becoming EiC, of course. Between her and Francesca Reyes over at OXM, this probably sets the record for female EiCs at US gaming rags. [Not sure how she'd feel about being described as cute first rather than talented, though.]

Not sure what you mean by "set the record", but according to Future's press release, Reyes and Salvatore are the first two female EiCs in the business.

Troy

[Mark Crump]

Kristen always busted her ass to make sure the freelancers got paid on time. She's aces in my book :)

[Brendan]

...Vede is a great guy and I wish him the very best in his new porn career.

Seriously, it's like THAT big.

Is there no end to the depths th which these viral marketers will go?

[Mark Crump]

"boys club bullshit" in a magazine run by Vederman? He's more of a "robot mascot" kind of guy. Just curious what you mean by that expression, and what you didn't like?

Maybe the PCXL Frag Dolls Issue has something to do with this line of thought...

[unbongwah]

Not sure what you mean by "set the record", but according to Future's press release, Reyes and Salvatore are the first two female EiCs in the business.
As in "most female EiCs at U.S. gaming magazines at one time."

Which, given that they're the first two, is as much a commentary on the presence of women in this industry as it is a sign of their accomplishments.

[malkav11]

Well, it's kinda like looking at the price tag on a Porsche and saying, "Jeez, cars are way too expensive! I'm just gonna ride the bus!" For most people, a Honda Civic is good enough; but if you've got the cash to burn...


Well, yeah, that's kinda my point.

Except for a proper analogy, we'd need some sort of car that you can put together from aftermarket parts.

[John Reynolds]

And the latest PCG issue gives a Blackbird rig a measley 97% score on page 118. Wow, that looks bad. I can't remember the last time a piece of hardware or system garnered a score that high (or a game, for that matter. . .BioShock got a 94% in the same issue).

[Mark Asher]

Well, it's kinda like looking at the price tag on a Porsche and saying, "Jeez, cars are way too expensive! I'm just gonna ride the bus!" For most people, a Honda Civic is good enough; but if you've got the cash to burn...

You can impress girls with your car! Not sure you can with your PC. I'm not one to spend a lot on a car, either, though.

Also, there's a big difference between driving your own car and taking the bus. I guess the PC analogy would be owning a PC and using one at the public library.

[brainfromarous]

And the latest PCG issue gives a Blackbird rig a measley 97% score on page 118. Wow, that looks bad. I can't remember the last time a piece of hardware or system garnered a score that high (or a game, for that matter. . .BioShock got a 94% in the same issue).

If I recall correctly, the highest game review scores ever were 98% for Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Half-Life 2. There have been quite a few scores in the 90s, however, going back many years, including - perhaps most infamously - Sierra's Outpost in 1996 (93%, Editor's Choice).

[Mark Asher]

And the latest PCG issue gives a Blackbird rig a measley 97% score on page 118. Wow, that looks bad. I can't remember the last time a piece of hardware or system garnered a score that high (or a game, for that matter. . .BioShock got a 94% in the same issue).

Who wrote the review?

[Lake]

Who wrote the review?

Chuck Osborn wrote the BioShock review. I assume Logan Decker, the Hardware Editor, writes all the hardware articles since those do not specifically state the author.

[NowhereDan]

Who wrote the review?
Logan wrote the review and scored it.

[mono]

Just TRY to play SupCom or WiC w/ dual screens enabled on that SLI rig and THEN give it a 97!

[Desslock]

Sierra's Outpost in 1996 (93%, Editor's Choice).

Nobody currently at the magazine was even working there then, so perhaps it's time to bury that chestnut.

[Ed Solomon]

Nobody currently at the magazine was even working there then, so perhaps it's time to bury that chestnut.
There is no statute of limitations for a positive Outpost review.

[Desslock]

There is no statute of limitations for a positive Outpost review.

Fair enough - I was one of the loudest critics of that review. "Fuck PC Lamer" -- Critical Bill, circa 1997

It just has nothing to do with current regime at the magazine, and it's just misleading to group it with criticisms that might be more legitimate (such as debating the scores given to the more recent games that were mentioned).

[NowhereDan]

Just TRY to play SupCom or WiC w/ dual screens enabled on that SLI rig and THEN give it a 97!
SLI no workie with dual monitors.

[mono]

SLI no workie with dual monitors.

Umm, that was my point.

[brainfromarous]

Fair enough - I was one of the loudest critics of that review. "Fuck PC Lamer" -- Critical Bill, circa 1997

It just has nothing to do with current regime at the magazine, and it's just misleading to group it with criticisms that might be more legitimate (such as debating the scores given to the more recent games that were mentioned).

Well, the Half-Life 2 "red carpet" review debacle was more recent, but that's been even more chewed over than the Outpost thing.

You point is taken, though.

It does raise the issue of how much any gaming mag can be said to have an editorial voice and personality, esp in these days of "media integration" (ie, Ziff-Davis turning its stable of mags into print auxiliaries for 1UP) and staff turnover.

Nice to hear Critical Bill mentioned again, though.

[Kevin Grey]

Well, the Half-Life 2 "red carpet" review debacle was more recent, but that's been even more chewed over than the Outpost thing.


"Red Carpet" review debacle? What was that one?

The only thing notable I remember about PCG's HL2 review was that they went to Valve to play it. I think that's a very questionable decision anytime it's done but it's incredibly common (they were even bragging about it in the Diablo 2 review). Hell, I think that's how all of the Halo 3 reviews are being conducted.

[brainfromarous]

"Red Carpet" review debacle? What was that one?

The only thing notable I remember about PCG's HL2 review was that they went to Valve to play it. I think that's a very questionable decision anytime it's done but it's incredibly common (they were even bragging about it in the Diablo 2 review). Hell, I think that's how all of the Halo 3 reviews are being conducted.

That was pretty much it, Kevin. My objections were... well, here's what I posted (as "Brummbar") on their forum:

http://www.pcgamer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=621

Jeff Green discussed this at length, I believe, in one of his past 1UP 'blog entries. I'd link to it if I could find it...

[jabroni]

Yeah, I heard the GFW guys talking about it on their latest podcast. They were especially going into why it's bad if the game is a multiplayer game and it isn't even out yet so all you get to play against are developers and playtesters. Then PC Gamer shows up in the mail with a TF2 review. What coincidental timing.

[Ed Solomon]

Well, the Half-Life 2 "red carpet" review debacle was more recent, but that's been even more chewed over than the Outpost thing.
But...but...Half-Life 2 is the "best game ever made." How can there be a debacle?

[Jeff Green]

Yeah, I heard the GFW guys talking about it on their latest podcast. They were especially going into why it's bad if the game is a multiplayer game and it isn't even out yet so all you get to play against are developers and playtesters. Then PC Gamer shows up in the mail with a TF2 review. What coincidental timing.

Actually, it *was* a coincidence in this case. I mean, we didn't make those comments in response to that cover--because we didn't even know they had an Orange Box cover until it showed up in the mail a couple days after we recorded that podcast. (Really, would I do that to my pal--and sleeper agent--Kristen in her first week on the job? No, I would not! Maybe next month though!)

Still, we (GFW, and me specifically) have long made it known how we feel about us doing review covers, so it's not like we were saying anything new on that 'cast. That's just been our stance for at least a couple years. Any other mag who wants to do 'em, more power to them. Review covers, when well timed, like the new PCG, can be super nice for consumers wondering whether to buy or not. But for me personally, there's just too many icky variables up front that make me worry and just balk at doing them (and when we've tried to do them in the past, we've been burned).

Also: Grats, Kristen! I'm not sure if I'll be able to beat *this* EIC at arm wrestling, unlike the last wuss. :)

[ciparis]

Yeah, the Blackbird is pretty awesome and it's the first time I was impressed by an HP machine. Here's hoping they keep it up.
I think it's got the best case ever produced by a PC company (in amounts greater than 10 at any rate). I'm so glad that someone among the major manufacturers decided to produce such a fantastically overbuilt case. I love it. Now if they can just get a certain company to license their OS...

[jabroni]

Well, it was pretty good timing, then :) I got PCG the day after I listened to your podcast and some little thing just went off in my head, "ooooh, now I get it." I think I'm sort of mixing in when CGM used to directly call out PCG on stuff like that, too... all these crazy three letter game magazines start to run together after a while. I do agree with you guys, though.

Anyway, didn't mean to derail the thread, or to derail it further, at least.

[Rob_Merritt]

Nobody currently at the magazine was even working there then, so perhaps it's time to bury that chestnut.

Wasn't Whitta writting for the magazine back then? There is something I don't understand about "net think" and PC Gamer. Forum after forum people love to point out fishy pc gamer reviews AND how much better PC gamer use to be before Greg came along. That jut doesn't computer. Before Greg's time, you couldn't trust pc gamer at all. Not sure if those are related but clearly some people are romantising the past.

[Greg Vederman]

Well, the Half-Life 2 "red carpet" review debacle was more recent, but that's been even more chewed over than the Outpost thing.

The "Red Carpet" Half-Life 2 Review Debacle, you say? Hmm, isn't ringing any bells. And you'd think it would, because it's got such an impressive-sounding name and you say it's been chewed over so much. It's particularly weird because I seem to recall that we really liked HL2...and that a little while later, everyone else reviewed HL2 and really liked it, too. I'll have to give this some more thought and see if I come up with anything.

-Vede

[Kevin Grey]

Yeah, HL2 probably isn't the best example. However I think the Doom 3 review is an embarrassment ("masterpiece of the art form" and all of that). Of course a lot of critics really like Doom 3 but that was definitely a case where the popular reaction wasn't nearly as positive and I'm sure a lot of reviewers would like to go back and adjust their scores. As I recall, that was another case of reviewers going to company and playing it there.

[grahamiam]

The problem with the HL2 review was that it was done in a "Steam-perfect" environment at Valve. IIRC, the initial consumer Steam/HL2 rollout was anything but perfect, and PCG missed those issues during it's review.

[TriggerHappy]

Haha "Doom 3: 10 out of 10"

Who was that again?

[TriggerHappy]

The problem with the HL2 review was that it was done in a "Steam-perfect" environment at Valve. IIRC, the initial consumer Steam/HL2 rollout was anything but perfect, and PCG missed those issues during it's review.

The only problems I had activating my Steam version of HL2 was the servers being overloaded. I don't know how a magazine reviewer is supposed to predict how well/poorly an online application will handle release day loads. I know I don't expect reviewers to see into the future and know how servers will hold up.

[Mark Crump]

Even if they got pre-release copies (which happens a lot) the Steam issue would have been missed. However, wasn't it a one-time inconvenience? The original unlock took a couple of hours but after that you were fine.

If I was doing a post-release review I'd have mentioned it, but I doubt it would have affected the score. Now, if every time I launched the game it took 2-hours to re-unlock there'd be a problem.

To me, this issue is kinda like an MMO on the first few days of launch--the patch server just isn't happy but once you get through that initial hurdle you're golden.

[tmastern]

The only problems I had activating my Steam version of HL2 was the servers being overloaded. I don't know how a magazine reviewer is supposed to predict how well/poorly an online application will handle release day loads.


That's an easy one!
It will always suck.

[brainfromarous]

The "Red Carpet" Half-Life 2 Review Debacle, you say? Hmm, isn't ringing any bells. And you'd think it would, because it's got such an impressive-sounding name and you say it's been chewed over so much. It's particularly weird because I seem to recall that we really liked HL2...and that a little while later, everyone else reviewed HL2 and really liked it, too. I'll have to give this some more thought and see if I come up with anything.

-Vede

The quality of HL2 was not the issue; the review was. Please read the PCG thread I linked to for a more detailed explanation.

[ryan]

Wasn't Whitta writting for the magazine back then? There is something I don't understand about "net think" and PC Gamer. Forum after forum people love to point out fishy pc gamer reviews AND how much better PC gamer use to be before Greg came along. That jut doesn't computer. Before Greg's time, you couldn't trust pc gamer at all. Not sure if those are related but clearly some people are romantising the past.

I had a subscription to PC Gamer from around the fourth issue up until 2000 or so, and I can't recall a review, outside of Outpost, that was a problem for people. What about PC Gamer back then was untrustworthy? I always found the reviews informative and pretty noncontroversial. Even going back through their catalogue of scores I'm not seeing anything that sticks out as the magazine not being fair or honest.

[brainfromarous]

Wasn't Whitta writting for the magazine back then? There is something I don't understand about "net think" and PC Gamer. Forum after forum people love to point out fishy pc gamer reviews AND how much better PC gamer use to be before Greg came along. That jut doesn't computer. Before Greg's time, you couldn't trust pc gamer at all. Not sure if those are related but clearly some people are romantising the past.

Point taken. I'll cop to having been so put out by PCG in years gone by that the experience "echoes" into my present opinions. But that's the opposite of romanticizing the past. (I'll take your word for it, but I've never met or corresponded with anyone who idolizes the old PCG.)

Majors kudos to Greg, then, if he turned things 'round.

[unbongwah]

I had a subscription to PC Gamer from around the fourth issue up until 2000 or so, and I can't recall a review, outside of Outpost, that was a problem for people.
You forgot about the Ascendancy (http://www.mobygames.com/game/ascendancy) debacle. Long story short: the PCG author of a glowing review of a game most found, umm, not very good also wrote the strategy guide for said game. Ummm, oops.

One of the ongoing dilemmas for gaming publications these days is: how far do you go to land an "exclusive" preview or review? How many of the publishers' demands do you acquiesce to in order to scoop your rivals?

[Kevin Grey]

I had a subscription to PC Gamer from around the fourth issue up until 2000 or so, and I can't recall a review, outside of Outpost, that was a problem for people. What about PC Gamer back then was untrustworthy? I always found the reviews informative and pretty noncontroversial. Even going back through their catalogue of scores I'm not seeing anything that sticks out as the magazine not being fair or honest.

There was the Ascendency flap- William Trotter gave it a sterling review (over 90%) and it turned out he wrote the strat guide.

I remember some consternation over running the Red Alert review well before the game had gone gold. Back then people seemed to dislike the idea of reviewing anything but final boxed code but that's certainly a convention that's gone away now.

Then there was a flap about about payola and some of the paid trips journos were getting in return for coverage. I think the issue in question in had to do with a Novalogic junket but I can't remember if that one actually involved PCG or if it was a different magazine.

EDIT- I see unbongwah beat me re: Ascendency.

[Mark Crump]

You forgot about the Ascendancy (http://www.mobygames.com/game/ascendancy) debacle. Long story short: the PCG author of a glowing review of a game most found, umm, not very good also wrote the strategy guide for said game. Ummm, oops.

One of the ongoing dilemmas for gaming publications these days is: how far do you go to land an "exclusive" preview or review? How many of the publishers' demands do you acquiesce to in order to scoop your rivals?

The funny thing is, for all the shit Trotter got about this (and I don't know if it was justified), David Pogue of the Times does this all the time with his Missing Manual Books. Andy Ihatko of the Sun/Times also.

I honestly don't know how I feel about it, but I tend to like knowing the guy saying if the product is any good doesn't have any additional financial stake in it.

[ryan]

You forgot about the Ascendancy (http://www.mobygames.com/game/ascendancy) debacle. Long story short: the PCG author of a glowing review of a game most found, umm, not very good also wrote the strategy guide for said game. Ummm, oops.

One of the ongoing dilemmas for gaming publications these days is: how far do you go to land an "exclusive" preview or review? How many of the publishers' demands do you acquiesce to in order to scoop your rivals?

Ah, I did forget about Ascendancy. Aside from the same author - and I really enjoyed Trotter's work way back when - the score seems in line with two of the three listed at MobyGames, though I believe Coming Soon Magazine is and always has been a website. I do recall problems being brought up regarding Ascendancy's AI, which humbled me considering the computer in the demo constantly smacked me around.

[John Reynolds]

My favorite PCG gaff is the then-EIC stating that the Quake 1 engine was technically inferior to the Duke Nuken engine in his Quake review; though that's one easily forgiven since a reviewer doesn't exactly have to have technical chops. Just always tickled my funny bone since he was comparing a field-height, sprite-based engine to a 3D engine that really helped spur sales of the 3D add-in graphics market.

[brainfromarous]

Desslock's earlier mention of Critical Bill triggered something in my memory, and following a hunch I went looking through my archives and found this. I believe it's from 1997 or 1998.

PAST STENCH

Critical Bill™ Examines The Top 10 Flubs of PC GAMER Magazine

10.
PC Lamer has an aversion to using the word B-U-G in any of its reviews. It either makes reference to them in separate sections or sidebars, or more likely, not at all. T. Liam MacDonald even supplied a choice bit when he posted a portion of his review copy outlining a bug reference in his Warhammer review, but in the actual printed issue, it changed into a "design flaw."

9.
Constant slamming of whipping boy games to make the major releases and Editor's Choices look better. After all, what good is an 88% if the average PC Lamer score is 80 or better (1994-95-1st half 96)? You all know the games we're talking about here; go look up reviews for Catfight, Mode and Nihilist -- all bad games mind you, but why is PC Lamer suddenly trashing tons of them in print? Prior to 1996, no game had gotten less than a 40% rating; now a couple of 10-15% review ratings per issue is not uncommon.

8.
In yet another beta review PC Lamer reviewed Callahan's Cross-time Saloon in a non-final version. Remember, this was after the other problems it has had in this regard and after the game's designer came on-line to say the publisher's marketing department made a mistake in saying it was fit for review. If PC Lamer isn't talking to the game designers and programmers, then how can it know the game is finished?

7.
Reviewing a non-final copy of C&C: Red Alert TWO MONTHS before it shipped! The issue in question featured a Red Alert cover, review and strategy guide -- all TWO MONTHS before the game would hit the retail shelves. It all read like a whole-issue advertisement for Westwood.

6.
An utter disdain for classic games of the past. Its 50 Best Games Ever issue never mentioned M.U.L.E., Zork, Civilization, or many other classic games of the past. Also, over half of the top ten were released within the past year. (X-COM is the oldest of the top ten). On a related note, ALL the games in PC Lamer's 50 Best Games Ever list were from active (i.e. revenue producing) publishers. Compare that to CGW's list and then tell me it was a coincidence.

5.
Consistent inflation of Origin games' scores relative to the reputable game review magazines. I really like many of Origin's games, but must virtually every one of them be an Instant Classic, even when most other magazines give them 3 out of 5 stars (60%)? The worst Origin game in recent memory, Ultima 8, still received a 78% rating from PC Lamer, while being slammed in other reviews.

4.
The PC Lamer editors had the nerve to be offended when another magazine proudly stated that they only reviewed the final shrink-wrapped product. "It makes no difference, since we only review Final Gold Review Copies™ anyways," was essentially their response. Hmmm....

3.
In successive months, Todd "King of the Betas" Vaughn reviews games (Renegade 2 and Warhammer: Dark Crusaders) that are never released for retail sale. Think about that one for a second....

2.
PC Lamer gave Outpost (the game CGW ranked as worst of all time) a 93% rating and an Editor's Choice Award. The reviewer, Trent Ward (now at Gamespot), stated the only problem with the game was its sparse documentation!! What's worse, PC Lamer has never officially explained, retracted, or corrected that rating. In its new Reviews Index feature that comes with the CD-ROM each month, Outpost is still listed as a must own for strategy fans!

And the Number One Flub of PC Lamer...

1.
It let William Trotter, the author of a forthcoming Ascendancy strategy guide, review the same game for the magazine! Not surprisingly, the rating was much higher than any reputable magazine's. How about this for positive: "The best game of its kind, period. 93%! Editor's Choice Award!" Wow! It must be as good as Outpost! Not to mention that Mr. Trotter recently did a propaganda piece for Sierra's Interaction magazine and then wrote a glowing preview of Sierra's spring lineup. Ken Williams must have been busy.

Agree or disagree with Critical Bill? Let him know.
Special thanks to Jeff Dixon for his help in compiling the list.

"Let him know" was originally an email link to critical.bill@super.zippo.com

This was posted on a website named Game Drek -- your definitive guide to Gaming Grossness

http://www.pathcom.com/~kenl/gamedrek.htm (dead link)

[Desslock]

Now it can be told:

Game Drek was run by a Toronto doctor named Ken Liang (who used to post on the usenet as Homer Simpson or Delekhan), and who was the cofounder of, and regular contributor to, my "Desslock's RPG News" site. Critical Bill was Vince Freeman, a guy who had a low level job at The Toronto Stock Exchange, and abandoned the Critical Bill persona when he somewhat hypocritically decided he actually loved "graft" and kept trying to break into hardware sites in order to get it, eventually with success at places like sharkyextreme and at least one of his own sites. Ken and Vince were buddies, and I met Vince through Ken (at the time we coincidentally worked in the same building).

Anyway, such old news
- now T.Liam Macdonald hasn't written for PC Gamer in ages,and is now a long time contributor to Computer Gaming World/Games For Windows, and he also wrote for GameSpot
- Trent Ward left even further back, and went on to become one of the early editors at Gamespot and a founding editor of IGN PC, before hoping the fence to a gaming company.
- Bill Trotter continued to contribute to PC Gamer for quite a while, but has been gone for several years now.

Hearing all those old names still makes me happy though - such nostalgia.

[brainfromarous]

Interesting... thanks for the info, Desslock.

[checker]

http://www.pathcom.com/~kenl/gamedrek.htm (http://www.pathcom.com/%7Ekenl/gamedrek.htm) (dead link)
http://web.archive.org/web/20020615081842/http://www.pathcom.com/~kenl/gamedrek.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20020615081842/http://www.pathcom.com/%7Ekenl/gamedrek.htm)

[Beer]

My abiding memory of the man that is Vede will always be seeing him at an nVida launch in SF about 4 years ago when he turned up wearing his canary yellow motorcycle jacket and pants that made him look like a less sexy version of Uma Thurman from 'Kill Bill'. That outfit made my night and forever etched the Vede into my psyche as a man who can take a joke. :)

If you are reading this G A V - grats on the new position! PM me your new contact details soon!

[Ex-S Woo]

2.
PC Lamer gave Outpost (the game CGW ranked as worst of all time) a 93% rating and an Editor's Choice Award. The reviewer, Trent Ward (now at Gamespot), stated the only problem with the game was its sparse documentation!! What's worse, PC Lamer has never officially explained, retracted, or corrected that rating. In its new Reviews Index feature that comes with the CD-ROM each month, Outpost is still listed as a must own for strategy fans!

And the Number One Flub of PC Lamer...

1.
It let William Trotter, the author of a forthcoming Ascendancy strategy guide, review the same game for the magazine! Not surprisingly, the rating was much higher than any reputable magazine's. How about this for positive: "The best game of its kind, period. 93%! Editor's Choice Award!" Wow! It must be as good as Outpost! Not to mention that Mr. Trotter recently did a propaganda piece for Sierra's Interaction magazine and then wrote a glowing preview of Sierra's spring lineup. Ken Williams must have been busy.

This brings back old memories that I wish I couldn't recall...I...I...I bought both Outpost and Ascendancy based solely on these reviews!

Arrrgggggh, the pain!

Edit: Shit...I just remembered that I also bought the Ascendancy strategy guide with the game. F.U.C.K.

[John Sansker]

I remember some consternation over running the Red Alert review well before the game had gone gold. Back then people seemed to dislike the idea of reviewing anything but final boxed code but that's certainly a convention that's gone away now.

Nope.
I raised hell with PC Gamer about this very thing about this time last year.
Asking something to the effect of how exactly I had the magazine "reviewing" Company of Heroes around 30 days before the game even hit the shelves.
Greg explained it as being something that had to be done in order for print to be remotely competitive with online sources.

On a side note, dunno if it's related or not, shortly after this time frame, CGW later GFW, started listing in their reviews what version of the game they reviewed.

[John Reynolds]

Greg explained it as being something that had to be done in order for print to be remotely competitive with online sources.

Which explains why the Longbow 1 review was on shelves before the game went gold. PCG has always done this, the excuse/justification just changes with EICs.

[Lake]

3.
In successive months, Todd "King of the Betas" Vaughn reviews games (Renegade 2 and Warhammer: Dark Crusaders) that are never released for retail sale. Think about that one for a second....


That is funny.

[brainfromarous]

Alas, it looks like retail release or even Gold Master reviews are a thing of the past. GfW (nee CGW) also now accepts "Near-Final Reviewable" builds for review. We had a thread about that here, in fact.

[Mark Crump]

Alas, it looks like retail release or even Gold Master reviews are a thing of the past. GfW (nee CGW) also now accepts "Near-Final Reviewable" builds for review. We had a thread about that here, in fact.


As long as the reviewer doesn't go "oh, this is gonna get fixed when it goes gold, I won't mention it" I don't have a problem with this.

If it's a non-mmo, and a publisher says "this is reviewable" it's gonna get reviewed as-is.

[brainfromarous]

This brings back old memories that I wish I couldn't recall...I...I...I bought both Outpost and Ascendancy based solely on these reviews!

Arrrgggggh, the pain!

Edit: Shit...I just remembered that I also bought the Ascendancy strategy guide with the game. F.U.C.K.

The thing I remember about Ascendancy was the presence of a crippling bug having to do with how your ships used energy (weapons vs tactical movement, or something like that). Left unaddressed, this glitch simply wrecked the combat system and made the game unplayable.

Of all the coverage I read, only Martin Cirulis' review at CGW warned prospective players/buyers about this. Others never even mentioned it, which I found amazing given how blatant a problem it was.

[Jeff Green]

As long as the reviewer doesn't go "oh, this is gonna get fixed when it goes gold, I won't mention it" I don't have a problem with this.

If it's a non-mmo, and a publisher says "this is reviewable" it's gonna get reviewed as-is.

Right. This is our policy. If they're dumb enough to tell us it's "reviewable" and then it plays like shit because it's essentially NOT, that is their problem and will be reflected in the shitty score they get. And NO game gets a pass in terms of "things that they say are going to be fixed."

GFW's take is that we still want retail box releases or gold masters. We hold out as long as we can. And when we do get one of these "near-final reviewables" we always do a due diligence of: "Are you sure? Because we're reviewing this as-is, and you're gonna have to live with it" with the publishers.

MMOs are of course a different beast (it's questionable whether a review published right when one launches is even particularly useful, given how far a reviewer could have reasonably advanced in the game....)

-Jeff

[Desslock]

Good summary, Jeff.

[brainfromarous]

Good summary, Jeff.

Agreed.

And two questions...

1) How far into an MMORPG would you say a reviewer needs to go before he's seen 'enough' to score it?

2) If an MMORPG or single player RPG is technically competent but otherwise totally undistinguished - the same old elves-castles-trolls-dragons Tolkien knock-off crap, in other words - is that fair play for consideration towards a lower score?

[malkav11]

Personally I think #2 has some distinct issues with it. I really don't care if the reviewer is bored with the setting or whatever else as long as I'm still into it. But I certainly *do* care if the game works properly and maintains a decent balance without any actively player-hostile "features", at least that can't be turned off.

[Mark Crump]

Personally I think #2 has some distinct issues with it. I really don't care if the reviewer is bored with the setting or whatever else as long as I'm still into it. But I certainly *do* care if the game works properly and maintains a decent balance without any actively player-hostile "features", at least that can't be turned off.

Which #2?

[Tom McNamara]

Agreed.

And two questions...

1) How far into an MMORPG would you say a reviewer needs to go before he's seen 'enough' to score it?

2) If an MMORPG or single player RPG is technically competent but otherwise totally undistinguished - the same old elves-castles-trolls-dragons Tolkien knock-off crap, in other words - is that fair play for consideration towards a lower score?

In my experience, there isn't a magic threshold for when an MMO review is done. No matter what, you'll miss out on the nuances of class X, dungeon Y, and character level Z. Ideally, you experience the live client for several weeks and ask yourself if the journey felt worth it at the end. Are you doing cool things yet? Are there significant problems with its social framework? Is the client stable? Does it feel too grindy?

As for originality, WoW has proved that this isn't such a big deal. A polished and friendly presentation seems to go a long way. WoW removed many hurdles; corpse retrieval, tedious transportation, XP penalties, and forced grouping immediately come to mind. Its problems are relatively esoteric when compared against the field of its competitors.

[malkav11]

Which #2?

The one right above my post. I suppose I should have made that more clear.

[Mark Crump]

2) If an MMORPG or single player RPG is technically competent but otherwise totally undistinguished - the same old elves-castles-trolls-dragons Tolkien knock-off crap, in other words - is that fair play for consideration towards a lower score?

Not directly. Where it could affect the score is if it's just not any better than a lot of the elves-castles-trolls-dragons Tolkien knock-off crap. For scoring, I pretty much throw WoW out the window for comparison.

The big thing is if they do a good job on the game and it's enjoyable to play. The setting is mostly secondary. LOTRO is a good example of this. It was a fairly derivative game, but they did a good job with it and it scored appropriately.

[Desslock]

1) How far into an MMORPG would you say a reviewer needs to go before he's seen 'enough' to score it?

2) If an MMORPG or single player RPG is technically competent but otherwise totally undistinguished - the same old elves-castles-trolls-dragons Tolkien knock-off crap, in other words - is that fair play for consideration towards a lower score?

1. There's really two answers to this one, because it depends upon the purpose of the review. If the review's purpose is to properly assess the merits of the game relative to its peers, you really have to play it for months - it really takes months before the endgames mature as a large group of players max out their characters, and for players to play (and group with) a large sampling of each type of character, and character development options. I think the most "definitive" reviews of an MMO's strengths and weaknesses, and relative merits compared to its peers, really can't be written until at least several months after the game's retail release.

Often the best reviews available at launch are from the hardcore betatesting crowd, which has typically attacked a game comprehensively and has a real finger on the pulse of the game as its evolved during testing -- no reviewer of the retail game hoping into a game for a few weeks can ever hope to know a game as well, unless they've also gone through that beta-testing stage.

But I really think gaming publications should take a different approach to MMO reviews -- there is NO NEED to review these games for the hardcore MMO crowd, because that crowd is already highly educated and knows far more about the game than anything a reviewer can reveal in 500-800 words, either through their own or their friends' beta experiences, or through following the game's development on dedicated message boards, etc. Those gamers don't need assistance with making an "informed purchasing decision" towards a game because they're already well informed, and they won't be influenced by gaming magazine reviewers anyway -- those gamers instead just like to peruse the reviews to confirm that points jibe with their already informed perspective.

So reviewers in gaming publications should focus on judging a game's merits from the perspective a potentially new MMO player - that's the real target audience that can benefit from a review, because they don't already know everything about the game. For that reason, I frankly think it's more important to spend a ton of time playing different classes, playing in groups, playing solo, doing crafting, just exploring the different zones accessible to early-mid-level characters - basically doing anything that any new player would find themselves doing in the first 25-30 hours of playing an MMO (and ideally spending at least 100 hours doing so), and judging the game based upon those compiled experiences, because they're going to be more relevant to an uninformed, potential purchaser than trying to blast through to the endgame raiding, etc. with a single character. All players are going to be well equipped to determine if they want to continue to play a game beyond that point because of their own experiences in getting there.

Anyway, that's the approach I've always taken. And my hat's off to Mark Crump, who I think does a fantastic job tackling most of the MMO reviews for PC Gamer.

2. As others have indicated, I don't think the fact that a game's setting isn't novel should be held against it (although a fresh setting could be a real plus) -- what's more important is how well developed that setting is, how interesting a place to explore, how well the world draws you into its setting, how characters/races/monsters/places are given distinctive and memorable personalities/motivation/background lore, etc. But to me, there's nothing worse than a bland and generic swords & sorcery setting at this point, simply because it's a setting that's already been utilized well so frequently by the genre at this point.

[Jeff Green]

Agreed with all of the above (including the quality of Mark's work!) and will only add that I think it is also a good idea to keep revisiting MMOs as they progress to reassess how they are (even with a new score.) You can use an expansion or a major patch release as an 'excuse" to revisit---but I don't think you even need an excuse.

[Mark Crump]

Thanks for the kind words, guys.

The approach I take is similar to Desslock's, but in most cases I assume the reader has some base familiarity with MMOs. I think WoW opened up the market so much that the odds are pretty good PC Gamer's reader's have tried at least one MMO. While WoW has 9 million active subscribers, I'm willing to bet over 40 million have tried it in some way. Plus, with 3-500 words, it's tough to do "this is an MMO."

I'm not going to get into time-spent on reviews here, other than to say it's a lengthy amount of time. I try and paint a picture for how the newbie experience goes. I say what I liked and didn't like and try and leave it up to you to see if you share the same concerns. If I'm successful, a negative comment could be a positive if something I don't like about a game is something you prefer. For instance, I may say "I don't like non-consensual PvP," but if you really enjoy it, that's not a negative.

While a lot of MMOs don't show their issues until the mid-end game, my job as a reviewer is to try and help you make a decision to pick the game up by telling you what the initial experience + some time out in the non-newbie areas is like. While WoW's issues might be its 40-60 game, other games show their issues in the newbie area. I do wish I had more time to spend, though. The worse part is because of the print cycle, a review for an MMO is likely to come out 2.5 months after I finish it, and that could mean three patches have come out. Then I get the comments about why I didn't mention the patch.

I've tried to sell magazines the idea of revisiting MMOs with poor success. Maybe Jeff and I should talk :)

[tim edwards]

Agreed with all of the above (including the quality of Mark's work!) and will only add that I think it is also a good idea to keep revisiting MMOs as they progress to reassess how they are (even with a new score.) You can use an expansion or a major patch release as an 'excuse" to revisit---but I don't think you even need an excuse.

Quick question: have you actually run this kind of piece in GfW? I've commissioned a bunch of them, and then left them in cold storage because they're just not interesting enough to run. They always sound like a great idea but the reality is always a tiny bit disappointing.

[Jeff Green]

Quick question: have you actually run this kind of piece in GfW? I've commissioned a bunch of them, and then left them in cold storage because they're just not interesting enough to run. They always sound like a great idea but the reality is always a tiny bit disappointing.

Yes. We have run full reviews of patches of games like WoW and Guild Wars--which, to some extent, are "re-reviews" of the games themselves. Actually, let's make that a qualified yes. We have not just done a full-bore "here's our new review of (say) WoW, based on (say) 2 years' playing time." I think it's worth doing though.

(We did review SWG NGE, though.)

[brainfromarous]

Yes. We have run full reviews of patches of games like WoW and Guild Wars--which, to some extent, are "re-reviews" of the games themselves. Actually, let's make that a qualified yes. We have not just done a full-bore "here's our new review of (say) WoW, based on (say) 2 years' playing time." I think it's worth doing though.

(We did review SWG NGE, though.)

From what I've heard of NGE, that must have been more like a Public Health Warning...

[Jeff Green]

Pretty much. :)