Best Master of Magic-esque game?

[deepruntramp]

I ordered the Master of Magic strategy guide off Amazon a week ago and it came in on Monday. Since then I've finally gotten to playing some games of MoM for the first time and... well, it's pretty damn good. But I don't know if I'm convinced.

See, I really dunno if it's much better than, say, Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic. Or even the other two AoW games which I never really played. Master of Magic has its charm, but interfaces, graphics (nothing wrong with MoM's but in a big fight they can be confusing), and sound has evolved significantly since then.

Anyway, I'm curious what you guys think.

EDIT: And if you vote 'other,' please be so kind as to illuminate what that other game is. For the record, I'm not counting Dominions, Conquest of Elysium, Heroes of Might and Magic, or Fall From Heaven as similar enough to Master of Magic to qualify.

[lesslucid]

AoW 1 was decent if rather plain... AoW 2 & SM on the other hand had the opposite problem: pretty graphics that spilled out of their squares all over the place made it a nightmare to tell what the hell was going on half the time.

[mkozlows]

Well, of course Master of Magic isn't as good as a modern game. They hadn't even invented interfaces or graphics back then.

I loved the game, even though I had the first -- extremely buggy -- version of it and it was borderline unplayable. It would crash to DOS whenever I tried to go to the mirror world, and I was young and naive enough to think that was an actual intended feature to show how dangerous that world was.

[deepruntramp]

AoW 1 was decent if rather plain... AoW 2 & SM on the other hand had the opposite problem: pretty graphics that spilled out of their squares all over the place made it a nightmare to tell what the hell was going on half the time.
Yeah. I prefer Master of Magic's relatively simple overworld screen to Shadow Magic's way graphically overboard one. On the flip side, Shadow Magic's combats are much more detailed and easy to comprehend than Master of Magic's. They're also much bigger than the walkin closet sized MoM battlefields.

[Eduardo X]

Shadow Magic wins, hands down.

[Ch. Hasslbauer]

No way, not even hands up!


...Man, I like me a sophisticated argument!

[Nezz]

On the flip side, Shadow Magic's combats are much more detailed and easy to comprehend than Master of Magic's. They're also much bigger than the walkin closet sized MoM battlefields.
Mathematically speaking, perhaps, but they always felt much smaller to me. MoM at least tries to capture the idea of large armies fighting each other, with several figures per unit marching in formation. The scale in AoW is more RPGesque.

[quantum_mechani]

Master of magic is pretty clearly superior unless you are looking for MP. But I'm a bit baffled by the need for a strategy guide- if you haven't found a hundred ways to abuse the game after playing a few days you are not even trying.

I do have a soft spot in the genre for Lords of Magic as well, in retrospect it had a lot of issues, but I got a lot of use out of the game.

[Mind Elemental]

Master of magic is pretty clearly superior unless you are looking for MP. But I'm a bit baffled by the need for a strategy guide- if you haven't found a hundred ways to abuse the game after playing a few days you are not even trying.

I do have a soft spot in the genre for Lords of Magic as well, in retrospect it had a lot of issues, but I got a lot of use out of the game.

Halfling slingers, anyone?

I remember Lords of Magic tried really hard to get the Fantasyland Quest Feel (tm) down, and I remember the different titles that you got when you mouse-overed heroes - "XYZ, escorting the lord of order"; "ABC, from the court of the lord of order"; "CDE, the lord of order"...

P.S. Quantum_mechani, are you the Dominions Conceptual Balance guy?

[malkav11]

There are a lot of things to like about the Age of Wonders games but Master of Magic is (put in a heavily simplified way) Civ with magic. The Age of Wonders games are heavily scenario based, not the sandbox 4X that I want. And maybe I'm just sucky at them, but there never seemed to be any way for me to produce enough extra income to field more than a single stack of troops without dying slowly from upkeep costs. Which meant playing tag with the AI. Which also wasn't any fun.

If they'd change those two things for AoW 3 I would probably be sold on it as a proper MoM sequel. (A hypothetical AoW 3, I should say. I've no idea if one's being made or not. And Shadow Magic isn't it - it was a standalone expansion to 2.)

And I'd sure like one, because as you say, MoM hasn't aged well in terms of graphics and interface and probably other areas to boot.

[deepruntramp]

Master of magic is pretty clearly superior unless you are looking for MP. But I'm a bit baffled by the need for a strategy guide- if you haven't found a hundred ways to abuse the game after playing a few days you are not even trying.

I do have a soft spot in the genre for Lords of Magic as well, in retrospect it had a lot of issues, but I got a lot of use out of the game.
I don't actually own the game, I downloaded it abandonware. I use the strategy guide as my printed manual, because finding a real printed manual would cost me a ton of money.

And PDF doesn't cut it.

[shang]

The AoW series is good on its own, and they are arguably more balanced and polished as games than MoM. However, MoM has the better atmosphere, is more open-ended and IMHO has cooler units and spells.

[CustodianV131]

I really enjoy MOM's feeling of managing an empire with armies and the like were AOW, albeit also great games which I own every version of, feel more like managing RPG-like parties that take cities. I can't really explain it but MOM for me has that Civilization feeling to it, where AOW does not.

Plus I really enjoy those armies with all those tiny soldiers :) Halfling slingers for the win! :D Wish we could get a 3D makeover, but happy playing it as it is. Still good fun from time to time. MoM is one of these games that keep returning for a bit of play now and then.

[EvilIdler]

Lords of Magic was nice, and almost there. But it suffered from the one thing I hate the most: Impending doom
in X turns, right from the start. At least you had a regular game with equal opponents in MoM, until someone
started researching That Spell.

I've recently dug up a bunch of old manuals, and started finding the CDs for the games. LoM was one of them,
but the CD is unreadable in parts. I guess storing it without cover against a rock wall is a no-no.
Maybe I'll try the "abandonware" version eventually, but MoM still hasn't been beaten in my opinion.

Despite over-powered halfling slingers!

[Midnight Son]

Shadow Magic and Mods = awesome! Still waiting patiently for for MOM remake.......

[Skipper]

I -=LOVED=- Master of Magic. That said, it's not modern. I never played it modded. And it was buggy and only really shined later once all the patching was done. Balance wasn't great (notice all the halfling slinger comments.) Even then multiplay was a bit buggy and long, via a third party mod.

Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic, on the other hand, has reached near perfect status with me. Very stable (now anyway), very pretty, very moddable, and has some really neat things they did like simultaneous multiplayer. Is it MoM, no. Is it a modern game of that genre that I now rate over MoM, yes.

I think had I not played modded AoW:SM, then my answer would have been much different. The mods add SO much to the game.

[Skipper]

Master of magic is pretty clearly superior unless you are looking for MP. But I'm a bit baffled by the need for a strategy guide- if you haven't found a hundred ways to abuse the game after playing a few days you are not even trying.

I do have a soft spot in the genre for Lords of Magic as well, in retrospect it had a lot of issues, but I got a lot of use out of the game.

Multiplay mod:
http://www.roughseas.ca/momime/

[Mind Elemental]

I think had I not played modded AoW:SM, then my answer would have been much different. The mods add SO much to the game.

Don't suppose you could elaborate? Which mods, what do they add, etc?

[Skipper]

Don't suppose you could elaborate? Which mods, what do they add, etc?

Unofficial 1.4 patch is a great start. It's a user community fix of several items. After that my top two choices would be DwigMod, and Brave New World. After that there are a few total mod conversions, Children of Many Ages and one Lord of the Rings mod I can't remember the name of.

Some of the major changes the mods make are new hero's, new units, sometimes new races and leaders, new weapons, etc. Dwig in particular balanced hero's out quite a bit so it's no longer "aww hell another rogue hero," and instead it's "Jesus that rogue hero can kill some stuff."

Most of what you need you can find here:
http://aow2.heavengames.com/

[DeepT]

I just want a RTS version of MoM. I do not even care if the graphics are updated, but I wouldn't complain if they were.

So, how is it going Brad? How is Stardock's version of MoM coming along?

[Qenan]

Answered in the formulation of your question: Master of Magic. There's a reason it's the standard of comparison, despite it's flaws and age.

[Ben Sones]

I love AoM, and it has a lot of MOM-esque features. But it's ultimately a game best played with hand-crafted maps rather than random ones. Which makes it, on balance, a different sort of game from MOM.

[BobJustBob]

I just want a RTS version of MoM. I do not even care if the graphics are updated, but I wouldn't complain if they were.

So, how is it going Brad? How is Stardock's version of MoM coming along?

That's the worst idea I've ever heard. A realtime version would be so dumbed down as to be worthless.

[Saxman_72]

I agree with BJB, MoM redone in RTS form would be a horrible tragedy.

[unbongwah]

I just want a RTS version of MoM.
Yeah, because that's what we really need: more fantasy RTS titles.

[father lamat]

I just found Age of Wonders too restricting. I love the diversity and the production values are top notch but it's just a little too on the rails when I compare it to Master of Magic. Also, no Chaos magic and I love me some Chaos magic.

Then again, I was like eleven when MoM hit the market... wow... that sounded dirty... anyways, maybe it's my rose coloured goggles?

[AndrewM]

If it was kind of a fantasy Rise of Nations it might be good, but that's just because more Rise of Nations-like games would always be good.

I bought Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic after seeing all of the comparisons, but it isn't quite the same as Master of Magic. As others have said, the mechanics are very similar, but the scale and fixed maps just didn't do it for me.

And there are plenty of broken things in MoM. Halflings slingers can get really nasty, as can paladins or whatever the top-level human knights are, and the elven knights. I think the other races don't have anything like that. The klakons are just terrible, to the point where I usually take the fame hit and burn down their cities rather than oversee them. But really, that's part of the charm. It would be nice if the AI was a little better.

[LordGek]

I know it might be a bit of a stretch, and its still very much a work in progress, but I think the Fall from Heaven 2 mod for Civ 4 is the best successor to the IDEA of Master of Magic.

I mean beyond the obvious connection (MoM was in large part Fantasy Civ), more than any other mod I've ever seen for Civ, Kael and the gang have each of its Civilizations playing by different rules (not like the standard Civ 4 game with all Civs being nearly identical with the exception of a unique unit and unique building).

[quantum_mechani]

Multiplay mod:
http://www.roughseas.ca/momime/I've heard of that, but I also heard it had some pretty serious flaws, like only attackers being able to contol battles.

Mind Elemental: Yes, I'm the same one from dominions forum.

[father lamat]

I know it might be a bit of a stretch, and its still very much a work in progress, but I think the Fall from Heaven 2 mod for Civ 4 is the best successor to the IDEA of Master of Magic.

Agreed! It's a shame it was toned down in scope with the release of BTS but that being said I'm really looking forward to their next update. Apparently the entire idea came from a long running DnD campagin of his which in my opinion honestly tops a lot of the current story lines from most games.

And oh yea... Bannor Smash!

[Adam B]

Nothing tops MoM for me. Though that game could've used someone with some basic arithmetic skills on the team -- how many systems were just plain broken in the 1.0 build?

Still, the 11-death and 11-life stomp victories were hilarious when we first discovered them. Guess how many creatures can stand up to turn-15 (or whatever it was) Wraiths? About 4.

[uddi]

Another vote for Fall from Heaven. It's the first game I've played that fulfills my Master of Magic urges. Total magical domination with everything under my control. Diverse magics and races. Lots of fun. Age of Wonders just doesn't scratch that itch.

[Jason Lutes]

Master of Magic is still the tops for me. Crossing my fingers that Brad and Co. (Stardock) can put out a worthy successor.

AoW:SM is an awesome game in its own right -- I lost many, many hours to multiplayer sessions and carefully crafting maps with the terrific map editor -- but as others have pointed out already, it lacks the "fantasy Civ" feeling of MoM.

The world generation was one of MoM's greatest features, and in some ways has yet to be topped. The game didn't just randomly generate continents; neutral races would also be seeded across the surface, and would slowly grow on their own. So in the course of exploring you might come across a cluster of two or three cities, all of the same race, connected by roads. The only other games I know of that do something like this are Dwarf Fortress and some Civ IV mods. It gave you even more of a sense of playing in a "living" world.

Explorable sites (ruined towers, caves, etc.) would also periodically spawn wandering monsters, which would tromp about and pillage whatever settlements they came across. Great stuff.

Re: A current-gen fantasy RTS, doesn't Battle for Middle-Earth II qualify?

[deepruntramp]

Last I played Fall From Heaven, it was nothing like Master of Magic (unless you're comparing bad AI, lack of balance, bugginess, and incomplete design).

[AaronSofaer]

Master of Magic beats everything on this list, easily.

[davidf]

What about Dominions 3??? I'm suprised I dont see it on this list, or on the poll.

[Ben Sones]

That's because it's not particularly MOM-like. It's more of a wargame, with some limited building. I'd put it in the "Fantasy General-like" poll.

[Brad Wardell]

I just want a RTS version of MoM. I do not even care if the graphics are updated, but I wouldn't complain if they were.

So, how is it going Brad? How is Stardock's version of MoM coming along?

Working on it. Should have an announcement this Fall with screenshots. Think MoM with XComm tactical battles (except with spells and such).

[shang]

Working on it. Should have an announcement this Fall with screenshots. Think MoM with XComm tactical battles (except with spells and such).

Oh come on. That's some nasty teasing.

[Qenan]

Working on it. Should have an announcement this Fall with screenshots. Think MoM with XComm tactical battles (except with spells and such).

Hmm, that's got me interested.

[LordGek]

Working on it. Should have an announcement this Fall with screenshots. Think MoM with XComm tactical battles (except with spells and such).

Damn, way to use all of the nostalgic Strategy Gamer buzz words there, Brad!

[Robert Sharp]

MoM. It's not close.

And I can't get the love for Shadow Magic. Maybe I just haven't played it enough, but it doesn't seem different from the other AoW games in any significant way. Maybe I should try the mods though.

BTW, Gametap has both Shadow Magic and Lord of Magic, for those interested.

[Lum]

Are the gametap versions moddable?

[Robert Sharp]

I doubt it...or at least, I don't know how to do that. So if you are wanting to try mods, you'll need to go another direction.

Oh, come to think of it, I don't think I have Shadow Magic outside of Gametap. I have AoW2, though...does it have mods worth noting?

[Tyjenks]

Working on it. Should have an announcement this Fall with screenshots. Think MoM with XComm tactical battles (except with spells and such).

Here is my CC#, expiration date, and that other 3/4-digit number on the back. I await pre-release beta with the utmost patience. Talk to you again in the Fall.

Later,
Tyler

[davidf]

Working on it. Should have an announcement this Fall with screenshots. Think MoM with XComm tactical battles (except with spells and such).


Holy cr@p! can't wait...need now.....take my american express....

[Midnight Son]

Working on it. Should have an announcement this Fall with screenshots. Think MoM with XComm tactical battles (except with spells and such).

Here's a wad of $$.



(You are leaving out the "RTS" part of the original post, right? No need to ruin a classic.)

[bkrani]

Another vote for Fall from Heaven. FFH2 specifically.
Love that mod.

[Taranis]

Working on it. Should have an announcement this Fall with screenshots. Think MoM with XComm tactical battles (except with spells and such).
Would I be premature in predicting Game of the Year in 2008-9...... or whenever it comes out?

[caesarbear]

This is a horrible poll, but of all the fantasy TBS games, AoW:SM is the one I still play, over and over.

[quantum_mechani]

Working on it. Should have an announcement this Fall with screenshots. Think MoM with XComm tactical battles (except with spells and such).In my opinion, the biggest flaws in the original MoM were lack of multiplayer and modding, any chance the new game might include those?

[Ben Sones]

I've never found multiplayer to be all that useful in a game that lasts as long as the typical MoM game. Even Civ is problematic to play in multiplayer because of game length; MoM exacerbates the problem by also having tactical battles, which lengthen the game time even more, and also force everyone not involved in the battle to twiddle their thumbs until it's over. The only real solution is to shorten game length to something less epic, but of course that eliminates one of MoM's most endearing qualities.

[Tyjenks]

Even in all my fanboyish love for the HoMM series, multiplayer for me held too much downtime. I do not like waiting. SO like Ben said, multiplayer most certainly was not missed with MoM. I have never played a Civ MP game for much the same reason. Hell, my turns take too damn long for my liking.

[Sten Friberg]

Working on it. Should have an announcement this Fall with screenshots. Think MoM with XComm tactical battles (except with spells and such).

I'm ready to place a preorder right now.
Do you have any ballpark idea on a release date? First half 2008?

[quantum_mechani]

I've never found multiplayer to be all that useful in a game that lasts as long as the typical MoM game. Even Civ is problematic to play in multiplayer because of game length; MoM exacerbates the problem by also having tactical battles, which lengthen the game time even more, and also force everyone not involved in the battle to twiddle their thumbs until it's over. The only real solution is to shorten game length to something less epic, but of course that eliminates one of MoM's most endearing qualities.Tactical battles can always have an auto resolve if time is a problem. I agree IGOYOUGO turn style can be a pain, but there are a lot of ways to resolve it if done right. You can do PBEM style where you aren't really sitting around waiting for other players, or you can have a mode where players can simultaneously be giving orders. Or you can simply have something else to do while waiting for other players.

[Robert Sharp]

As long as the multiplayer aspect was an add-on and didn't detract from the singleplayer experience, I have no problem with it. But I think the people who push for multiplay overestimate the number of gamers who actually use it. So then you have to wonder whether it's worth it to the developers.

[Ben Sones]

I'm not saying that it can't be done, but I've never seen it done particularly well. PBEM Civ games can take years to resolve (the best PBEM games tend to be shorter and more direct; the old General games were always my favorites, because they had a lot of maps with a turn limit of around 15-25 turns), and cutting the tactical battles out of a game like MoM eliminates one of the best parts of the game. Ultimately, the only way to make this sort of game play well as a multiplayer game is to make it into a different game, which sort of defeats the purpose. I know that Brad & Co. caught some flak for making GalCiv single-player only, but I really respected that choice. Why put resources into developing a game mode that probably won't work well and that most people won't use?

[Taranis]

In my opinion, the biggest flaws in the original MoM were lack of multiplayer and modding, any chance the new game might include those?
I'm not 100% about this but I thought Brad said in a post a while back that it would include MP.

And for the record I play almost all my Civ4 games in MP (direct IP), and I really hope this new MoM? title will include it.

EDIT
Heres the post I was referring to:
http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=939846&postcount=33

[deepruntramp]

This is a horrible poll, but of all the fantasy TBS games, AoW:SM is the one I still play, over and over.
Well the question's kind of stupid, but to the best of my knowledge, Master of Magic itself and the Age of Wonders series are the only games in the subgenre.

[Robert Sharp]

Well, if it has to include tactical, maybe. But Disciples is a TBS fantasy game, as is the Warlords series. I think Dominions is the closest to MoM that I've played, actually.

But your general point is true. We need LOTS more games in this genre. I mourn it quite often.

[Tyjenks]

Yep looks like the best game since the original has turned out to be an as yet unnamed Stardock project.

[Brad Wardell]

In my opinion, the biggest flaws in the original MoM were lack of multiplayer and modding, any chance the new game might include those?

Yes. It'll have both. The editors will be built in (our internal alpha has this). I'm trying to arrange a trip to see the game mags in September so some of them will see this.

But yea you'll be able to create your own races, dungeons, world elements, etc. Also, mods will able to be submitted to a global library from in-game and once moderated automatically be usable by other players as if it had shipped with it. There's a lot of eye candy stuff in this category too (for instance, you can zoom in to towns and the town graphics can be modded by players with full life-cycle scripting (i.e. people walking around towns). It's pure eye candy but if someone wants to create a race of say Orcs and then have orc towns, they could make their own Isengard type setup and submit it).

This kind of stuff is the part that we've been working on first (like I said, it's one of the things we can already show).

But we are talking about a 2009 release here. Open beta next year to help make sure we get it right.

The Xcomm combat (everything is turn-based, there is no "RTS mode" in this). lets people take their armies and plan out their attacks in some detail. Since spells are so central in the game, we want to make sure people get to truly see the effects of these spells on their enemies and on the game world.

Plus, with turn-based, the graphics engine can be much more detailed and epic. We don't have to worry about high FPS so we can concentrate on it being really pretty and detailed.

[quantum_mechani]

Yes. It'll have both.
Well, I have to say, this really sells it for me- I think it just became my most anticipated game in develepment. It will probably be the first game i have pre-ordered in a long while.

[wisefool]

Do the lawyers get upset if you call it "Not Master of Magic"?

[Ch. Hasslbauer]

I really hope Atari won't sue you for similarities in content. Because in order to convey that MoM feeling IMO you'd have to take a lot of the stuff you can do in MoM and include it. For example I loved it to play chaos master and distort my minions with chaos magic into twisted forms, or to befoul my enemy's land with corruption magic. I'm not a lawyer, so I couldn't tell if these things have too great a similarity to Atari's IP.

[quantum_mechani]

For example I loved it to play chaos master and distort my minions with chaos magic into twisted forms, or to befoul my enemy's land with corruption magic..There are really similar things like that in, say, Lords of Magic.

[deepruntramp]

There are really similar things like that in, say, Lords of Magic.
Or even Dominions, for that matter.

For all the various mindless game clones, I've never seen a "similarities in content" lawsuit.

One thing I hope is that the magic stays devastating. Though I've only played Master of Magic for a week now, it's unlike any other game (excepting perhaps Dominions) in that magic is actually kind of scary/unbalanced/powerful/exploitable/whatever. This runs in contrast to, say, the Age of Wonders games, where magic is finely balanced like everything else. Screw that.

[Acosta]

Yes. It'll have both

Can I give you my money and my first born child in advance?

[Sten Friberg]

Can I give you my money and my first born child in advance?
Oh, sure. Put them here, right behind mine.

[wahoo]

"that magic is actually kind of scary/unbalanced/powerful/exploitable/whatever"

Remember some feelings of dread when you have to take a town defended by mages. You just hope your hero survives a bunch of cracks of doom, etc.

Game continues to be a blast whenever I play it, which is all too rare these days.

Lot of neat features like the mercs, treasures for sale and the expanding neutral empires. A new game in the same spirit and upgraded would be a dream come true.

[Hetzer]

Yes. It'll have both. The editors will be built in (our internal alpha has this). I'm trying to arrange a trip to see the game mags in September so some of them will see this.

But yea you'll be able to create your own races, dungeons, world elements, etc. Also, mods will able to be submitted to a global library from in-game and once moderated automatically be usable by other players as if it had shipped with it. There's a lot of eye candy stuff in this category too (for instance, you can zoom in to towns and the town graphics can be modded by players with full life-cycle scripting (i.e. people walking around towns). It's pure eye candy but if someone wants to create a race of say Orcs and then have orc towns, they could make their own Isengard type setup and submit it).

This kind of stuff is the part that we've been working on first (like I said, it's one of the things we can already show).

But we are talking about a 2009 release here. Open beta next year to help make sure we get it right.

The Xcomm combat (everything is turn-based, there is no "RTS mode" in this). lets people take their armies and plan out their attacks in some detail. Since spells are so central in the game, we want to make sure people get to truly see the effects of these spells on their enemies and on the game world.

Plus, with turn-based, the graphics engine can be much more detailed and epic. We don't have to worry about high FPS so we can concentrate on it being really pretty and detailed.


Okay, this time around i will preorder to be in beta testing.... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[quantum_mechani]

One thing I hope is that the magic stays devastating. Though I've only played Master of Magic for a week now, it's unlike any other game (excepting perhaps Dominions) in that magic is actually kind of scary/unbalanced/powerful/exploitable/whatever. This runs in contrast to, say, the Age of Wonders games, where magic is finely balanced like everything else. Screw that.Actually, I would not so much describe AoW spells as 'balanced' but more 'crappy'. There is no reason you can't have fun spells that are balanced, and AoW spells aren't even very balanced from the point of few of having lots of useless ones.

[Taranis]

But yea you'll be able to create your own races, dungeons, world elements, etc. Also, mods will able to be submitted to a global library from in-game and once moderated automatically be usable by other players as if it had shipped with it.
No comments on this feature yet people? This sounds like the most awesomely awesome awesomist feature ever. Ok maybe not earth shattering, but still really cool! I'm very curious to see how the MP aspects of the game will be implemented. Can't wait for the first preview!

Put me down for a pre-order on this one!

[Robert Sharp]

Damn Brad! That sounds like the most awesome game ever conceived, to be honest.

[Hetzer]

Damn Brad! That sounds like the most awesome game ever conceived, to be honest.


After all is said and done brad may be the person to save pc gaming (at least at qt3 ;) )

[Vic Davis]

But we are talking about a 2009 release here. Open beta next year to help make sure we get it right.

But 2009 seems so far away. Almost makes me wish I would get hit on the head and fall in to a coma for two years. Almost. Work Harder!

[AndrewM]

But 2009 seems so far away. Almost makes me wish I would get hit on the head and fall in to a coma for two years. Almost. Work Harder!

This just gives you a little while to save your pennies so you can quit working and focus on playing the game when it comes out.

[davidf]

ack, I hope we see it before global warming hits at the end of 2009. :) Scientist are saying we have a lul till then, then it hits with a vengance. Don't know what that means, but doesnt sound good for my electrical power :)

[Morkilus]

Being used to the WEGO system I'm a bit curious how the turn-based tactics will work in multiplayer. Perhaps I might need to actually use my Stardock forum account to look for rumors now!

Being in 2D and moddable sounds... really awesome.

By the way, for this poll I suggest Dominions, but I realize it's quite the different game.

[MikeJ]

Think MoM with XComm tactical battles (except with spells and such).

How long would these battles typically be? I don't think I want to play out something on the scale of a typical XCom mission in every encounter.

[mutt]

How long would these battles typically be? I don't think I want to play out something on the scale of a typical XCom mission in every encounter.
My thought exactly. I think the length of MoM's tactical battles was just about right for the game, so I hope they try to adhere to that.

[CustodianV131]

Sounds good! Would certainly preorder if that meant a spot in the beta. (I will preorder it anyway to be honest.. hmmm this doesn't help right?)

I really like how the customizing is built in right from he start. Its doing wonderful things for Civilization 4 right now (IE it stays on many peoples radar much longer) and would love to see that happening to a MoM type game!

[Brad Wardell]

How long would these battles typically be? I don't think I want to play out something on the scale of a typical XCom mission in every encounter.

The style would be like MOM, not the length. They'd be much briefer. The main thing is that players would be able to have very specific, tight control over their armies if they choose making use of various elements.

There will also be an "auto" fight mode of course (a lot of AI time will be spent on this since we want people to be able to use auto without thinking they're losing out).

[Midnight Son]

Hey Brad, ol buddy, ol pal..... how about a screen shot? Just one? C'mon, do it. Just do it. Do it....... :)

[Alan Friesen]

The style would be like MOM, not the length. They'd be much briefer.

To clarify: shorter than X-Com, or shorter than MOM?

[quantum_mechani]

There will also be an "auto" fight mode of course (a lot of AI time will be spent on this since we want people to be able to use auto without thinking they're losing out).This seems a tricky design point indeed, if the AI can really be made that good, manual battles would feel like a waste of time (and possibly troops), and if it can't, obvious frustration results. A bit of a lose-lose situation.

[Robert Sharp]

He meant shorter than X-Com. MoM battles were actually pretty quick, as you know...well, considering they were still tactical. I'd actually like MORE options tactically than MoM allowed.

[Tyjenks]

Can we talk about something else? 2009 is a looooooong way away.

[Robert Sharp]

Hmmm...is there an Empire of Magic sequel planned? Or maybe an expansion?


(sorry, couldn't resist!)

Actually, Battlelords is my next great hope. Have you been tracking it, Tyler?

[Tyjenks]

This Battlelords? (http://www.horizont-entertainment.com/batlords/) No I have not, but I'll check it out.

Empire of Magic? Never heard of it.

[mutt]

This seems a tricky design point indeed, if the AI can really be made that good, manual battles would feel like a waste of time (and possibly troops), and if it can't, obvious frustration results. A bit of a lose-lose situation.
Very good point indeed. I think the AI should always do slightly worse than a competent human player could do. That allows room for people who absolutely don't want to play the tactical battles, since they can adopt a strategy of overwhelming force to counteract it (and also for players in the late game to skip over trivial encounters), while still providing incentive for normal players to play the game as intended.

[Robert Sharp]

This Battlelords? (http://www.horizont-entertainment.com/batlords/) No I have not, but I'll check it out.

Empire of Magic? Never heard of it.

Oops. I meant Battle Lord. The 1c game. Did it get cancelled? I can't seem to find info on it anymore.

[Sten Friberg]

Oops. I meant Battle Lord. The 1c game. Did it get cancelled? I can't seem to find info on it anymore.

This site:
http://www.jeuxvideopc.com/news/8182-autre-date-sortie-battle-lord-.php

indicates that the new name now is "King's Bounty: The Legend".

Here's a preview from E3: http://e3.gamespot.com/story.html?sid=6174942

[Tyjenks]

That I had heard of. They are also making this:

Fantasy Wars (http://int.games.1c.ru/fantasy_wars/)


Fantasy Wars – is a turn-based strategy game set in a fantasy world. Combining both classic strategy gameplay and sophisticated 3D graphics players can experience epic battles like never before.


Pffft. Russians.

Here's the King's Bounty info page. (http://int.games.1c.ru/kingsbounty/)

[Piemax2]

Fantasy Wars sounds like something I'd like.
There's a demo out at a number of places, including http://files.filefront.com/Fantasy+Wars+English+Demo/;8448224;;/fileinfo.html,
but I can't get it to work; after installation it says it can't launch because it isn't configured properly, and that maybe reinstalling would help. I reinstalled, then deleted and installed a version from another site, same problem. One other filefront user posted that he had the same problem, any ideas what to do?

[Tyjenks]

Fantasy Wars sounds like something I'd like.
There's a demo out at a number of places, including http://files.filefront.com/Fantasy+Wars+English+Demo/;8448224;;/fileinfo.html,
but I can't get it to work; after installation it says it can't launch because it isn't configured properly, and that maybe reinstalling would help. I reinstalled, then deleted and installed a version from another site, same problem. One other filefront user posted that he had the same problem, any ideas what to do?

I played it and went through one scenario of the two that are offered. It was kinda meh. I had no trouble installing. Seems like I may have downloaded from gamershell.

[Piemax2]

Edit: the gamerhell version gives me the same error.
Someone on filefront posted that he had the error with the English demo but not the Russian one, so I am going to try both that and the French one.
Are you running XP, or Vista, or something else?

[davidf]

I installed from filefront with no issue. The demo however, is pretty aweful. I'm not sure if its very stripped version of a more robust game, or that's going to be the actual game. I know I will wait for more reviews, before I even consider it.

It did inspire me to reload and play some of the Civ 4 mods instead.

XP here

[davidf]

Wow, just found out that Heroes of Annihilated Empires is out! Anyone played it yet? I'm donwloading the demo and giving it a spin, but looks pretty promising. Bah, looks like no US release is planned, just UK...guess I'll have to order overseas again if its good.

[Piemax2]

Well the Russian demo works for me but I can't understand it; the French one gives the same error message as the English. With the two negative comments above, I guess I'll stop bothering with it, though I am curious what's causing the problem.

[shang]

Buh? Is that some sort of sarcasm or did you just time warp or something? HoAE came out a year ago.

[davidf]

HoAE came out a year ago.

Guess I was on sabatical when that came out, and never caught it :(

[Tyjenks]

I installed from filefront with no issue. The demo however, is pretty aweful. I'm not sure if its very stripped version of a more robust game, or that's going to be the actual game. I know I will wait for more reviews, before I even consider it.


My feelings exactly. If there is more to that thing, it ain't in the demo.

Anyway....Master of Magic. Good times.

[Piemax2]

So I got the Fantasy wars demo to run using the Visual C++ 2005 SP1 Redistributable Package (thanks, Lorini) and there is a lot more in the second mission than the first- lots more units, and also what looks like a decent range of "perks" to pick from when units level up, including summons and debuffs for the mage hero, leadership type buffs for the melee hero, etc. I like this type of game; my one concern now is that the purty graffix makes it hard for me to identify the various units; I would have preferred a simpler but easier-to-scan gameboard. But maybe once I got used to it I'd have an easier time?

[Raife]

I installed from filefront with no issue. The demo however, is pretty aweful.

Aweful, huh?

[Rock8man]

I've never found multiplayer to be all that useful in a game that lasts as long as the typical MoM game. Even Civ is problematic to play in multiplayer because of game length; MoM exacerbates the problem by also having tactical battles, which lengthen the game time even more, and also force everyone not involved in the battle to twiddle their thumbs until it's over. The only real solution is to shorten game length to something less epic, but of course that eliminates one of MoM's most endearing qualities.

Yeah, the length of the games is the main reason we weren't ever able to play more than 5 or 6 games of Age of Wonders. Don't get me wrong, the game was really fun in multiplayer, and since I've never played Masters of Magic, it was a completely new type of game for me, especially the tactical battles, which are completely different from Civilization battles or even the tactical battles in MoO2. We had a blast in hotseat multiplayer, and even in LAN multiplayer (although hotseat is more fun because you get to hang out together and talk instead of being separated), but the games last forever.

If we ever wanted to play a game of Age of Wonders, we tried to dedicate a whole weekend to it, so it was hard to orchestrate, but definitely worth it if we managed it.

I'm surprised at the number of votes for the third Age of Wonders game though. Since I didn't like the sequel as much as the original AoW, I guess I didn't even give the third game a second thought. But apparently it was really good? I'll have to check it out sometime.

This is why I love these nostalgia threads. I actually found out about a good Turn-based Strategy game that I'd dismissed out of hand earlier. And good turn-based strategy games are so rare, its always good to read these kinds of threads and mine them for more good TBS games.

[Naeblis]

AoW saga is something like this:

AoW I > AoW SM > AoW 2.

:)

[Jasper]

Do you mean for the campaigns, or for multiplayer? I preferred the AoW 1 campaign, but would much rather play AoW2 multiplayer.

[Skipper]

Yeah, the length of the games is the main reason we weren't ever able to play more than 5 or 6 games of Age of Wonders. Don't get me wrong, the game was really fun in multiplayer, and since I've never played Masters of Magic, it was a completely new type of game for me, especially the tactical battles, which are completely different from Civilization battles or even the tactical battles in MoO2. We had a blast in hotseat multiplayer, and even in LAN multiplayer (although hotseat is more fun because you get to hang out together and talk instead of being separated), but the games last forever.

If we ever wanted to play a game of Age of Wonders, we tried to dedicate a whole weekend to it, so it was hard to orchestrate, but definitely worth it if we managed it.

I scratched my head a little at that. In a typical 3-man game of AoW:SM that I play with two buddies we'll usually generate about 3-5 computer players as well. We sometimes play every man for himself, sometimes co-op against better AI opponents. Either way though it's about a 3-5 hour game. Usually on the shorter side of that.

The simultaneous turns help a LOT, as does a house rule that if you need to "jump on a battle" at the beginning of your turn, you can do so. For those who haven't seen it, you can do all of your turn on your own, and you'll see opponents doing the same. You can rush an attack command at the beginning of the turn and beat the AI's small delay for movement if you need to catch them before they move. Any fully played battle stops action for everyone while you play it out, either against the AI, or against another player. Everyone gets to watch the action, but only those involved participate. Because of this, we use another house rule that trivial battles (those you will probably always win) are auto-resolved. Once done with your turn you click on the end turn button. As long as there are people still moving, you can click it back off if you forgot something, then end turn again.

I typically take over towns so I move across the map slowly but the general rule is one super stack by mid game, two super stacks by late game. Super stacks include one or two heros, at least one of them a caster, and the rest either your tier 5 troop or a mix of that and high level summoned creatures. A friend who plays with me will usually sacks or razes towns and plays with multiple groups of 5-6 instead of a super stack. Either way, just like in MoM, late game magic use hurries the game along quite a bit. Anything that damages everything on screen is highly sought after.

EDIT: I'll add that the game is highly alt-tab'able. So frequently I'm not watching the screen once I finish the turn, and it'll maximize again when the turn ends.

[Rock8man]

The thing about simultaneous turns is that it usually means you're all at your own computers, and kind of divorced from what's going in the game besides your own armies. This made the game go much faster, but it wasn't as fun. At least not in the first AoW, which is the only one I've played multiplayer.

Plus we liked playing only on the really big maps, and I think the original AoW only shipped with two such maps. So we had to go looking for user made maps online. I remember playing one which was just huge because of the way it laid out the map above ground and below ground. One of our friends started as the undead down in the underground. By the time 10 hours had passed, we had lost to armies on the surface, but he had continued to grow his armies in the underground. We were able to tease him throughout the night about how we would cast Turn Undead if we ever met up with him, and the evening was still fun for all of us because we were constantly ribbing each other back and forth.

We were also enjoying his reign of destruction down in the tunnels as he took over town after town in the underground. It was fun watching him do well even if we were getting our asses handed to us on the surface despite banding together.

i know there's a give and take. Taking less time, versus being able to enjoy the game more fully in hotseat, but overall we still prefer hotseat, unless we can come up with an arrangement where we put all our computers in one room for the evening for some LAN play. That works well too. We did that several times with MOO2.

[Skipper]

I completely understand Rock8man, I used to do hot seat for other titles and it is quite fun. Planning strategy, asking for help on what to do next, etc.

I didn't have that option with AoW:SM but I would say you should try that title, especially with the great unofficial patch and some of the mods created over here:
http://aow2.heavengames.com/downloads/lister.php?category=modpacks&rating=top

Dwiggs is excellent fun. There's also tons of scenario maps. I was in total agreement with you on the vanilla AoW, it wasn't that much fun. I think a lot changed from AoW to AoW2 to AoW:SM (which is technically 3.) I feel like the game is a mix of a few others, chiefly MoM, then a little mix of Warlords, and a little bit of Fantasy General as well.

[Alan Au]

Ah yes, AoW:SM multiplayer; good times. We used simultaneous turns with a short turn timer (maybe 3 minutes?). I can't remember what house rules we instituted for battle-resolution. Probably it had to do with auto-resolving AI battles. Player battles were a bit weird; I think we had some exceptions for unwinnable battles and anything involving heroes.

- Alan

[Skipper]

We typically have about one mulligan for every three games or so. Someone gets their main hero taken out within the first 30 minutes or so. A few laughs at the guy follow, then we redo the game. What's funny though is that late game you'll be deep in conflict with an AI opponent only to find out your buddy is feeding him spells via an alliance. This leads to inevitable retaliation back against your buddy, but it's kind of fun to do.

I miss playing it though. It's not been on the hard drive for a few months now but playing MMO's with my buddies just isn't as fun as a good strategy game every so often.

I've done MOO games too. Sadly those stopped when MOO3 broke all hopes for a more updated MOO multiplayer experience.