US to label Iran's Revolutionary Guard as a Terrorist Organization

[Anti-Bunny]

The United States will be labeling Iran's Revolutionary Guard as a "specially designated global terrorist" organization according to U.S. White House officials.
According to reports, U.S. President George W. Bush will label the group under Executive Order 13224 which "provides a means by which to disrupt the financial support network for terrorists and terrorist organizations by authorizing the U.S. government to designate and block the assets of foreign individuals and entities that commit, or pose a significant risk of committing, acts of terrorism."
"Anyone doing business with these people will have to re-evaluate their actions immediately. It increases the risks of people who have until now ignored the growing list of sanctions against the Iranians. It makes clear to everyone who the IRGC and their related businesses really are. It removes the excuses for doing business with these people," said an unnamed U.S. official.
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/2002/16181.htm
I believe this is the first time a standing army has been labeled a terrorist group.

[Ben Sones]

So is "terrorist" just a meaningless word now for people we don't like? Because by the traditional definition, uniformed soldiers are not terrorists.

[Brian Rucker]

Y'know that really does open alot of doors we might not want opened ourselves at this point.

[Midnight Son]

Bombs away soon!

[Linnaeus]

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/2002/16181.htm
I believe this is the first time a standing army has been labeled a terrorist group.

While the IRGC as a whole probably shouldn't have been labeled a terrorist group, there's definately a case to be made for Qods Force (http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/iran/qods.htm), and since Qods Force uses IRGC funds and resources to pursue their mission (To organize, finance, train, and equip Islamic "revolutionary" groups) designating the entire Guard Corps as a terrorist organization gives us greater leeway with regards to going after their assets in our banking systems and so on. I would have preferred a more targeted designation, but I can understand why they listed the entire IRGC instead of a single unit within it.

[NowhereDan]

Seems to me like it's paving the way for the Bush administration to be able to unilaterally attack the Iranian army. 'Cause now they're not attacking a nation, they're attacking a terrorist organization. Lovely.

[BlueJackalope]

While the IRGC as a whole probably shouldn't have been labeled a terrorist group, there's definately a case to be made for Qods Force (http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/iran/qods.htm), and since Qods Force uses IRGC funds and resources to pursue their mission (To organize, finance, train, and equip Islamic "revolutionary" groups) designating the entire Guard Corps as a terrorist organization gives us greater leeway with regards to going after their assets in our banking systems and so on. I would have preferred a more targeted designation, but I can understand why they listed the entire IRGC instead of a single unit within it.

I can understand it also. Its a prelude to war.

I understand it, I don't like it.

[BrewersDroop]

According to Executive Order 13224:

"For the purpose of the Order, “terrorism” is defined to be an activity that (1) involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life, property, or infrastructure; and (2) appears to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, kidnapping, or hostage-taking."

[Jason McCullough]

That's a really stupid EO trying to redefine an already well-defined term. Virtually anyone can be swept into that under "intimidation."

This seems remarkably counterproductive, unless it's just Cheney trying to gin up a war again.

[arctangent]

The Bush administration has defined itself as a terrorist organization. Fascinating.

[AaronSofaer]

This is entirely too retarded.

[Enidigm]

This is entirely too retarded.

Are you a terrorist organization as well?

[Rimbo]

So is "terrorist" just a meaningless word now for people we don't like?

Wait -- you mean it meant something else at some point?

[Tim Partlett]

When I was walking around the National Museum in Tirana, they clearly hadn't changed the translations since the communist days of Enver Hoxha. So every reference to any country that had ever upset Albania was preceded by the words: "the antagonistic imperialistic chauvinistic nation of..."

[AaronSofaer]

Are you a terrorist organization as well?

No, just someone who would like it if the US government didn't try and re-write definitions when they got inconvenient.

[Anti-Bunny]

I'm not really sure what to think about the designation, but I'm curious.. Do you guys who are shouting 'LOL BUSH SAID TERRORIST!' think the Qods Force is completely innocent?

[Unicorn McGriddle]

No, just someone who would like it if the US government didn't try and re-write definitions when they got inconvenient.

That's the new definition of terrorist, though. Happy Terror Day, terrorist.

Edit: Anti-Bunny, let me put it this way: I don't know what the fuck the Qods Force is, and have never even heard of it before this thread, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's innocent of invading two countries in the last five years.

[AaronSofaer]

I'm not really sure what to think about the designation, but I'm curious.. Do you guys who are shouting 'LOL BUSH SAID TERRORIST!' think the Qods Force is completely innocent?

Of cousre not.

Thing is, there's already a definition of Terrorist out there, and this isn't it.

[Ben Sones]

I don't know what the fuck the Qods Force is

http://www.nerf-herders-anonymous.net/images/TerenceStamp_SupermanII.jpg

[Linnaeus]

I don't know what the fuck the Qods Force is, and have never even heard of it before this thread

Then maybe you should disengage your fingers, step away from the keyboard, and educate yourself on the subject before posting again. The link I provided gives a basic overview of the organization, their ties to various Islamic extremist groups, and the training that they provide to these groups. They've also been linked as suppliers of the EFP charges that've been an emerging threat in Iraq as well as coordinating more sophisticated operations like the raid on the governor's compound in Karbala this past january.

[BlueJackalope]

I'm not really sure what to think about the designation, but I'm curious.. Do you guys who are shouting 'LOL BUSH SAID TERRORIST!' think the Qods Force is completely innocent?

Nope, I assume the Qods Force is lending Shite (sp?) insurgents help when they can. I'm guessing other shite governments are helping Shite inurgents also and Sunni governments are helping Sunni factions. I'm also sure that factions within the Pakistan army and secrete service are helping the Taliban and Al Queda (the OG's not these Iraqi wannabes) also, when do we declare them terrorists?

Problem #1 - the administration has yet to prove the Qods are supplying the shaped IEDs and this administration doesn't have the best reputation for truth telling. Noone should take their word for...um anything.

Problem #2 - they didn't lable the Qods Force as terrorists (which is itself over 100,000 troops) they labled the Iranian army. The whole thing. Last I checked we were in "A War On Terror" doesn't that mean that this administration just de facto declared war on the Iranian army, which means war with Iran?

Do you think this is no biggie AB? Do you doubt this comes from Cheney's office?

[Linnaeus]

Problem #2 - they didn't lable the Qods Force as terrorists (which is itself over 100,000 troops) they labled the Iranian army. The whole thing.

No, they labeled the entire Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, which is an organization separate from and parallel to the Iranian military. The IRGC maintains their own naval, air, ground, and strategic missile forces and answers directly to the Ayatollah. And while we don't have a really solid order of battle for Qods Force, it's not 100,000-strong. In fact the best estimates I've seen put it at somewhere near brigade strength (several thousand troops and another thousand or so support staff).

Now, I agree that labelling the IRGC as a whole is still too broad, but let's not confuse things by saying that they've labeled the entire Iranian military or the Iranian army a terrorist organization.

[BlueJackalope]

whew, thanks, for a second I thought they might be over reaching.

[Jason McCullough]

So you can label a brigade-size, officially recognized, in-country inside Iran organization "terrorists" when you claim they give assistance to terrorist organizations.

Therefore, the CIA is also a terrorist organization, because it has given aid to known terrorist organizations since its inception up until today.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Then maybe you should disengage your fingers, step away from the keyboard, and educate yourself on the subject before posting again. The link I provided

Gosh I would love to see a wall of links to a bunch of dubious bullshit written by people who share your ideology. I hear you do those.

This page has trouble differentiating the Qods from the rest of the Revolutionary Guard. Despite being called qods.htm, it appears to mostly concern either the Guard as a whole or other groups within it.


The Qods (Jerusalem) Force of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) is responsible for extraterritorial operations, including terrorist operations. A primary focus for the Qods Force is training Islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups. Currently, the Qods Force conducts training activities in Iran and in Sudan. The Qods Force is also responsible for gathering information required for targeting and attack planning. The Pasdaran has contacts with underground movements in the Gulf region, and Pasdaran members are assigned to Iranian diplomatic missions, where, in the course of routine intelligence activities they monitor dissidents. Pasdaran influence has been particularly important in Kuwait, Bahrain, and the United Arab Emirates.

It's cool that they have a made-up-sounding Arabic name; that makes them more terror-y. (And don't think I haven't noticed that globalsecuritymanlyhummer.com chose to leave strategic Arabic words untranslated for maximum derka.)


The Central Intelligence Agence (CIA) of the United States of America is responsible for extraterritorial operations, including terrorist operations.* A primary focus for the CIA is conducting operations in Iran. Currently, the CIA conducts training activities in the United States and abroad. The CIA is also responsible for gathering information required for targeting and attack planning. [The CIA has contacts with underground movements in the Gulf region, and CIA members monitor dissidents in the course of routine intelligence activities.** CIA influence has been particularly important in Iran and the Middle East in general.]***

* There will not be universal agreement on whether the activities of the Qods Force or the CIA constitute terrorism, because terrorism means "things I don't like," and in both cases you'll find fans.

** I assume CIA agents operate alongside American diplomatic missions, but that's far from the only way they monitor dissidents.

*** The original does not refer to the Qods Force in the bracketed passage, but to the Revolutionary Guard. So really, only half of the paragraph is about the Qods, but I'll give herosecurityterrordefense.com the benefit of the doubt.

Iran has every reason to have foreign intelligence capability, because Iran's been the target of very effective covert operations by foreign intelligence agencies (is installing a new government covert?), and because Iran continues to hold the interest of a certain larger, more aggressive country.

Even if the Qods Qilting Bee was conducting public drills in the streets of Tehran with time trials for running into a café really fast while wearing a heavy vest, it'd still be obvious that this "classified as terrorists" business is a diplomatic cock slap intended at best as crude intimidation and at worst as paving the way for more violence than any Qod can imagine even with the aid of killographic murder simulators like Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.

Sweet google ads, though:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/1237/irangirlsnu4.png

Somehow, Colonial Williamsburg doesn't sound as exciting as half-price airfare to the Iranian singles scene. But I always thought the Iranian singles scene was American universities.

[Midnight Son]

We got a lot of southern hotties out heah in Ole Virginny. Plus, they don't gotta cover 99% of their bodies.

[Rimbo]

We got a lot of southern hotties out heah in Ole Virginny. Plus, they don't gotta cover 99% of their bodies.

geez, for a second there, i thought you meant that they only cover 1% of their bodies

i woulda had to move to virginia

[metta]

Therefore, the CIA is also a terrorist organization, because it has given aid to known terrorist organizations since its inception up until today.


Not only that but every post-WW II U.S. President could be tried for war crimes, if the U.S. ever bothered to sign the Geneva Conven... Oh, I see.

[Lum]

It's cool that they have a made-up-sounding Arabic name; that makes them more terror-y.

It's not "made-up-sounding Arabic name", it's Arabic for Jerusalem, and probably should be called Jerusalem Force to make it quite clear what it intends, plans and proclaims itself to be - a force to attack Israel. Since then it's branched out to screw with India in Kashmir, Lebanon, and oh, hey, Iraq and Afghanistan.

I also don't think they should be listed as a terrorist group - unless you put the North Korean military there as well, which has done far worse. But they're not exactly the Coast Guard rescuing helpless dolphins, either. If you don't trust rambosecurity.org, do you trust the Fellowship of American Scientists? The guys with the doomsday clock? Because that's where the link's text actually came from. Or maybe you like Wikipedia better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_Force

[AaronSofaer]

* There will not be universal agreement on whether the activities of the Qods Force or the CIA constitute terrorism, because terrorism means "things I don't like," and in both cases you'll find fans.

Wrong. There is a definition of terrorism. It's just not one that's convenient to any side, really, so people tend to ignore it in favor of their partisan bickering bullshit.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

It's not "made-up-sounding Arabic name", it's Arabic for Jerusalem, and probably should be called Jerusalem Force

Yeah, I wasn't saying they made up the name (made-up-sounding), only that, as you say, they chose to use to use an unfamiliar Arabic word when they didn't have to.


If you don't trust rambosecurity.org, do you trust the Fellowship of American Scientists? The guys with the doomsday clock? Because that's where the link's text actually came from. Or maybe you like Wikipedia better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_Force

The Wikipedia article's not really bowling me over. They don't appear to be doing anything out of the ordinary for an intelligence agency, and there's a lot of unconfirmed stuff in there (which the article is frank about).

Does the Fellowship of American Scientists have more than half a paragraph to say about the group itself? And isn't the Doomsday Clock thing about nuclear weapons? How is this in their field?


Wrong. There is a definition of terrorism. It's just not one that's convenient to any side, really, so people tend to ignore it in favor of their partisan bickering bullshit.

Now look here, you eggheaded intellectual, there's no need to be condescending about knowing what words mean.

-- Sorry, wrong thread. But I do believe that my concise summary clears up inconsistencies in the use of the term that would confuse a less cynical person.

[Tim Partlett]

Ironically, the name "Qods" (Jerusalem) Force was adopted more as a slogan during the Iran-Iraq war than as a reflection of Khomeini's immediate interest in conquering Israel's capital. While the IRGC's declared goal was to "liberate" Jerusalem after capturing Baghdad, Khomeini was much more focused on spreading the revolution to Shiite cities in Iraq such as Karballa and Najaf, and considered Jerusalem lower on his list of priorities.

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[Johan O]

I don't quite get what the administration hopes to get from this move. Unless it is war fluffing.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

12345

Not to mention it isn't surprising or outrageous that Iran should have an intelligence service branch dedicated to one of its most dangerous and belligerent neighbors. I'm sure Israel's got people who monitor Iran.

[metta]

I don't quite get what the administration hopes to get from this move.

http://www.gallowglass.ca/images/umbrellamakersneedrain.gif

[Linnaeus]

Not to mention it isn't surprising or outrageous that Iran should have an intelligence service branch dedicated to one of its most dangerous and belligerent neighbors.

It's not an "intelligence branch" (that's the Ministry of Intelligence and Security, VEVAK, and it spends a good deal of its time on playing secret police internally). Qods Force is a military organization whose mission is to first train groups like Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and more recently JAM in guerilla and terrorist tactics, and then to provide them with the funds, equipment, and further training and qualified advice they need to operate more effectively in order to export Iran's Islamic revolution to other states in the region.

Even if you don't object to the spreading of religious extremism by violence, I'd hope you'd object to a nation training groups in how to hit bigger, better civilian targets with car bombs and "martyrdom attacks". Though perhaps I'm hoping for too much.

[Tim Partlett]

But training and funding foreign terrorists (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/25/wiran25.xml) is a function of the CIA, which is the American intelligence service.

And yeah I do "object to a nation training groups in how to hit bigger, better civilian targets" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras). Period.

[Anti-Bunny]

But training and funding foreign terrorists (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/25/wiran25.xml) is a function of the CIA, which is the American intelligence service.

And yeah I do "object to a nation training groups in how to hit bigger, better civilian targets" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras). Period.
As horrible as the Contras were, and as much as everyone here agrees they were terrible, it doesn't change any of what Linneaus said.

[Tim Partlett]

The first part does contradict what he said. The argument seems to be that because there are other organisations in Iran that carry out CIA like functions, it cannot be considered an intelligence agency like the CIA. But obviously it carries out one clear function of the CIA, so it can in some ways be considered an intelligence agency like the CIA.

I'd argue that they carried out aggressive intelligence, spreading their propaganda and knowledge to other parties. Groups like VEVAK are more internal/passive intelligence organisations. The CIA covers both of these functions, although internal intelligence is handled by other groups, like Homeland Security.

With the second part, regarding the Contras, I obviously agree with him.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Sure, those things are bad. But they're also pretty common features of states. I know this stuff is covered under most dictionary or treaty definitions of terrorism, but the national powers that tell the world who the terrorists are have been historically averse to suggesting that state terror is terrorism, for obvious reasons. (Aerial bombing, another gambit that effectively requires effort on a national scale, was an atrocity when introduced but has since evolved into a conventional tactic thanks to a similar principle.)

No American authority will ever designate the CIA as a terrorist organization. Until now, even the precedent of calling foreign government groups "terrorist" in nature has been avoided. States chosen as targets in the last few years have been called (mostly unfairly) "rogue states," they've been called (without the benefit of a Detect Alignment spell) "evil," and they've certainly been accused of supporting terror, but their soldiers haven't been designated as terrorists. The word had still been used selectively, but it had accrued a meaning almost accidentally because of that: it came to indicate a violent group that, while it might be aided by nations or work alongside them, was itself extranational in character and did not ultimately answer to any government.

If the Revolutionary Guard is a terrorist group, then the last vestige of meaning that "terrorist" had in use beyond an indication of personal dislike has been stripped away. For all that it conveys, they might just as gainfully be officially reclassified as boogerheads who eat their boogers.

[Lum]

America does it, so it's OK! Wow, even the left *AND* the right can say it, and mean totally different things.

But yeah, before we all dogpile on each other, yes, the word "terrorist" has been bandied about to the point of ridiculousness. It simply means "people we don't like" at this point, and unfortunately the people who almost everyone would consider terrorists (suicide bombers, kidnappers of civilians, etc) get lumped in with guerillas and spies.