Turn-based strategy for PSP? [Archive] - Quarter To Three Forums

mystery

08-10-2007, 10:01 AM

The interface looks like it could be a nightmare.

It's actually quite sweet. Once you get the hang of one interaction area (like, buying and selling things), it's the same interface for everything.

Not to toot my own horn too much, but I just posted a first impressions (http://dndvault.ign.com/fullstory.php?id=31834) on this title, and I'm planning on posting a follow-up later this afternoon.

Geo

08-10-2007, 10:02 AM

I'm planning to get D&D Tactics next week, if ya'll want me to be the interface guinea pig. :) [OK I've been beaten to the punch on that :)]

If you trust EB release dates, some turn-based stuff already mentioned here are:

Aug. 14
-Dungeons & Dragons Tactics

Aug. 21
-Jeanne D' Arc (this seems to play very much like the GBA FF Tactics, or even Vandal Hearts on PSX if you remember that far)
There's a pretty cool gameplay flick at Gametrailers:
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/23338.html

Oct. 9
-Final Fantasy Tactics: War Lions

Nov. 13
-Warhammer 40,000: Squad Command

Gendal

08-10-2007, 12:27 PM

Not to toot my own horn too much, but I just posted a first impressions (http://dndvault.ign.com/fullstory.php?id=31834) on this title, and I'm planning on posting a follow-up later this afternoon.
Wait, you mean D&D Tactics actually doesn't suck? It sounded far too great when they announced it, so I immediately wrote it off as a guaranteed to be fucked up. Now it sounds like an absolute must buy for me. If you post/find any more impressions let us know!

This & Incursion are satisfying D20 urges I didn't even know I had. Funny how it's coming out on the same day as a probable new release of Incursion.

Been lusting after Jeanne D' Arc ever since it was announced. Turn based tactical combat ala FFT made by Level 5? Hell yes. Reviews have been mixed out of Japan, but I am still hopeful.

I could use another play through of FFT, this time with a serious translation instead of the unintentionally hilarious original. Warhammer 40k Squad Command is a mystery to me, since I know nothing about the rules system. I read the Eisenhorn & Ravenor novels by Abner set in the universe and enjoyed them, so I will be hoping they don't screw it up.

mystery

08-10-2007, 12:40 PM

Wait, you mean D&D Tactics actually doesn't suck? It sounded far too great when they announced it, so I immediately wrote it off as a guaranteed to be fucked up. Now it sounds like an absolute must buy for me. If you post/find any more impressions let us know!

It's an excellent title. The only quibble I've had with it so far is that the game used a lot of its available space on the disk for depth of adventuring and campaign -- without using that same space for cinematics. If that's the most I can complain about so far, I think I'm pretty well off.

I was talking to a friend last night, and I came up with a quick description of the title: It's the closest thing to Neverwinter Nights you're bound to find on the PSP.

Citiznmatt

08-10-2007, 12:43 PM

Well, shit. There goes $40 on Tuesday.

slantz

08-10-2007, 12:46 PM

It's the closest thing to Neverwinter Nights you're bound to find on the PSP.
That's not necessarily a selling point.

deepruntramp

08-10-2007, 01:27 PM

I was talking to a friend last night, and I came up with a quick description of the title: It's the closest thing to Neverwinter Nights you're bound to find on the PSP.
I assume you mean Neverwinter Nights of old?

Geo

08-10-2007, 01:42 PM

If you're curious about the Warhammer game, and how the PSP and DS versions will differ (rather greatly it seems), the UK Pocketgamer had some hands on with the DS version:
http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/DS/Warhammer+40,000:+Squad+Command/news.asp?c=3665

Gamespy looked specifically at the PSP version a while back:
http://psp.gamespy.com/playstation-portable/warhammer-40k-squad-command/805745p1.html

I doubt you'll need to know the Warhammer rules set, any more than you need to know them to enjoy Relic's Dawn of War. :) (it might *help* to know them, I just doubt they would make the game hostile to people who don't know it). I don't know diddly about D&D, still looking forward to the D&D Tactics games.

Dirt

08-10-2007, 02:05 PM

Seriously, I don't regret my PSP purchase at all.

unbongwah

08-10-2007, 02:07 PM

It's the closest thing to Neverwinter Nights you're bound to find on the PSP.
I'd prefer it if you said, "It's like a ToEE that actually works right OOTB."

mystery

08-10-2007, 02:08 PM

I assume you mean Neverwinter Nights of old?

I apparently walked into the biweekly meeting of the NWN-haters club.

I actually meant the Bioware game, and I was referencing D&D Tactics' adherence to the 3.5 ruleset.

unbongwah

08-10-2007, 02:21 PM

I apparently walked into the biweekly meeting of the NWN-haters club.
This is Qt3: we're the Mikey of gaming forums.

malkav11

08-11-2007, 12:35 AM

I apparently walked into the biweekly meeting of the NWN-haters club.

I actually meant the Bioware game, and I was referencing D&D Tactics' adherence to the 3.5 ruleset.

So you mean NWN2, I hope and pray? 'cause NWN1's adherence to 3.0e was pretty awful. (I don't hate NWN1, mind you. Just the engine, the graphics, the original campaign, and the rules implementation. The expansion campaigns, premium modules, and many of the user scenarios are pretty darn nifty when one makes allowance for the above.)

olaf

08-13-2007, 05:28 AM

I'd prefer it if you said, "It's like a ToEE that actually works right OOTB."

Yeah that is what I am looking for. How does it compare to TToEE?

Geo

08-13-2007, 07:16 PM

Mystery (I think) posted his "more impressions of D&D Tactics" at the IGN forums:
http://vnboards.ign.com/dungeons_dragons_online_general_board/b22447/104113621/p1/

Can you save during a mission, or only at the start and after completing it? Just wondering.

Geo

08-13-2007, 08:15 PM

Gamespy (4/5 stars) and IGN (9/10) both weighed in enthusiastically on Jeanne D'Arc (though I thought they'd review D&D Tactics first, maybe it's too long :D) tonight:

http://psp.gamespy.com/playstation-portable/jeanne-darc/812374p1.html

Jeanne manages to capture perfectly what we want from a tactical RPG: to make us care about the characters through a well-done but not distracting story; to give us enough choices in customization to make preparing for battle and spending our resources meaningful; and in providing us with battles that feel like certain doom from the first turn, even after we've won dozens of them.
http://psp.ign.com/articles/812/812668p1.html

Extremely deep gameplay. Balanced tactical strategy and fast paced action with rich game mechanics. An intriguing twist on a well known tale. These three statements only scratch the surface of Jeanne d'Arc, which manages to deliver on all of these fronts.

Packed with challenging strategic play and tactical action, Level-5's latest title is a phenomenal game that will keep you engaged for hours. If you've been eagerly awaiting a game to end the Strategy RPG drought on the PSP, look no further: your title has arrived.Looks like - hopefully - a good month to be a PSP/turn based strategy fan. :)

Gendal

08-13-2007, 09:32 PM

So is D&DT getting released tomorrow or was it postponed again? Already convinced I want it now. And Jeanne too, but I wasn't too terribly impressed with the demo.

Xemu

08-13-2007, 09:36 PM

Wow, Brave Story already had me firing up my PSP all the time, Jeanne d'Arc is positively going to move it into DS territory!

deepruntramp

08-13-2007, 10:56 PM

I apparently walked into the biweekly meeting of the NWN-haters club.

I actually meant the Bioware game, and I was referencing D&D Tactics' adherence to the 3.5 ruleset.
Well when you equate "turn based strict adherance to D&D 3.5e rules" to "pauseable realtime crate looting simluator," we have to wonder.

Hetzer

08-14-2007, 05:38 AM

Why are there tbs games for the f..... handhelds developed but nearly none for us craving pc gamers?

BobJustBob

08-14-2007, 06:11 AM

Why are there tbs games for the f..... handhelds developed but nearly none for us craving pc gamers?

Why are you complaining that you can play your genre of choice on a $150 dollar machine rather than a $750 dollar machine?

ydejin

08-14-2007, 06:40 AM

Why are you complaining that you can play your genre of choice on a $150 dollar machine rather than a $750 dollar machine?
Well I won't claim to speak for Hetzer, but I would prefer to play my turn-based game with much higher screen resolution, better graphics, and the use of the mouse.

Talorc

08-14-2007, 07:10 AM

Can you multi class in this game? eg like Rogue 5 / Fighter 10

Or is it all strictly one class only? I can kind of see why they might do that with a handheld game.

Nick Walter

08-14-2007, 07:36 AM

mystery

08-14-2007, 08:46 AM

I haven't had good luck finding much in the way of reviews for this game, especially ones written by people who have played a lot of PNP Dungeons and Dragons and can comment on how closely the game rules adhere to the actual PNP game. If anyone sees one like that, please link :)
Dude, my D&D Basic boxed set (blue box) has Gygax's autograph. I wrote a little piece a few weeks back (http://dndvault.ign.com/fullstory.php?id=30800) where only some of us old fogies will get the jokes.

Nick Walter

08-14-2007, 09:06 AM

Dude, my D&D Basic boxed set (blue box) has Gygax's autograph. I wrote a little piece a few weeks back (http://dndvault.ign.com/fullstory.php?id=30800) where only some of us old fogies will get the jokes.

Cool. Have you written anything that gives details on how closely the PSP game adheres to the 3.5 rules? All I've seen so far are things like "100's of feats" and "they have psionics!"

Sometimes little details have big implications so I'm wondering if this PSP game really plays like tabletop DnD. Does every melee character need to end up with a 2h weapon and power attack to get a decent damage output? Does every rogue end up with a ring of blinking so they can sneak attack all the time? Does every high level caster end up with multiple rods of quickened metamagic so they can always cast two spells a round? Do gazebos have big DR vs everything but fire and axes?

mystery

08-14-2007, 09:12 AM

Cool. Have you written anything that gives details on how closely the PSP game adheres to the 3.5 rules? All I've seen so far are things like "100's of feats" and "they have psionics!"

Yea, in the 2 reviews linked in this thread.

Sometimes little details have big implications so I'm wondering if this PSP game really plays like tabletop DnD. Does every melee character need to end up with a 2h weapon and power attack to get a decent damage output? Does every rogue end up with a ring of blinking so they can sneak attack all the time? Does every high level caster end up with multiple rods of quickened metamagic so they can always cast two spells a round? Do gazebos have big DR vs everything but fire and axes?

I've only played the game for a week, now, so I can't speak for higher levels. I'd be further along, but I keep stopping actual play time to spend hours noodling my way through how best to spend my gold and equip each of my characters. I'm way too much of a min/maxer to power through the levels.

I can tell you that, at levels 1-5, a Dwarven fighter with Cleave and a big 2-hander will take you far, my son.

Nick Walter

08-14-2007, 09:25 AM

Yea, in the 2 reviews linked in this thread.

I read those. I just reread those. Not so much seeing the details that pertain to my question ;-)

You did however manage to get me psyched for this game though, so I'm pretty much guaranteed to buy it at this point!

Geo

08-14-2007, 10:49 AM

Why are there tbs games for the f..... handhelds developed but nearly none for us craving pc gamers?Because PC gamers stopped buying those once FPS games became popular and the pretty lights killed off the turn-based strategy gamers. Because C&C and Starcraft and RTSs took over the world and taking time to debate a turn lost its allure in favor of hyperactive mouse clicking contests. Well those are some crackpot theories of mine, but it's like trying to answer why dinosaurs are extinct (comet? disease? evolution? Michael Jackson?)

At one time there was so many turn-based squad strategy games (Jagged Alliance, Incubation and SSI's Soldiers at War and Warhammer 40K Chaos Marines among some I remember, along with Fallout and its ilk) that I almost did a fan site devoted to the "genre." Crazy, huh? Anyway, I plan to buy the two we're yakking most about here (Jeanne and D&D:T) and will keep my fingers crossed the Warhammer squad one is any good. At least if you can get one of the redesigned PSPs you'll be able to hook it up to a TV/monitor and maybe that way you can pretend squad strategy games have returned to the PC... or that it's 1997. :)

Hey some reviews are trickling in at the review compilation (er, aggregator?) sites:
http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/psp/dungeonsanddragonstactics
It's interesting how the first 3 are positive, middle of the road and negative. :D

Balasarius

08-14-2007, 11:29 AM

Bah, Best Buy says 8/21.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8373182&st=dungoens+and+dragons+tactics&type=product&id=1177718866876

Dungeons & Dragons: Tactics: PSP
27525

PSP Mini Disc Release Date: 8/21/2007

Bioshock is going to win that fight.

slantz

08-14-2007, 11:46 AM

Bioshock is going to win that fight.
I don't think they're actually fighting...

Citiznmatt

08-14-2007, 12:08 PM

Hmmm, someone on another forum says they picked up a copy in NYC and posted some impressions. Never know how full of it they are though. If it's really delayed and releasing up against Jeanne D'Arc, then hands down, Jeanne wins that one.

ydejin

08-14-2007, 01:32 PM

Bah, Best Buy says 8/21.
EBGames (http://www.ebgames.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=190378) looks like they have it in stock. Also in stock at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Atari-Dungeons-Dragons-Tactics/dp/B000K9WNIS/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-9576067-4738545?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1187123485&sr=8-1).

Tyjenks

08-14-2007, 01:42 PM

Because PC gamers stopped buying those once FPS games became popular and the pretty lights killed off the turn-based strategy gamers. Because C&C and Starcraft and RTSs took over the world and taking time to debate a turn lost its allure in favor of hyperactive mouse clicking contests. Well those are some crackpot theories of mine, but it's like trying to answer why dinosaurs are extinct (comet? disease? evolution? Michael Jackson?)

At one time there was so many turn-based squad strategy games (Jagged Alliance, Incubation and SSI's Soldiers at War and Warhammer 40K Chaos Marines among some I remember, along with Fallout and its ilk) that I almost did a fan site devoted to the "genre." Crazy, huh? Anyway, I plan to buy the two we're yakking most about here (Jeanne and D&D:T) and will keep my fingers crossed the Warhammer squad one is any good. At least if you can get one of the redesigned PSPs you'll be able to hook it up to a TV/monitor and maybe that way you can pretend squad strategy games have returned to the PC... or that it's 1997. :)

THis is the very reason I broke down and picked up a GBA and am debating between a PSP and DS. There is still life in the TBS genre and the offerings we get for the PC (The platform that drew me to the TBS games in the first place) are quite lacking.

I am short on funds or I woul have already plunked my money down on one or the other. I am about ready to do a stint of gay porn for some extra money. I hear having a tall, slim swimmer's build pays well.

slantz

08-14-2007, 01:49 PM

THis is the very reason I broke down and picked up a GBA and am debating between a PSP and DS.
The correct answer is both. Though obviously if you're slim on cash you'll need to prioritize. I'd probably encourage the DS first, only because there's already so many good/cheap games out there.

There is still life in the TBS genre and the offerings we get for the PC (The platform that drew me to the TBS games in the first place) are quite lacking.
There's a pretty good number of TBS games out there if you're willing to give indie games a try. The graphics obviously aren't commercially competitive, but there's a fairly wide range of options, most of them cheap/free.

Coca Cola Zero

08-14-2007, 01:57 PM

Well I won't claim to speak for Hetzer, but I would prefer to play my turn-based game with much higher screen resolution, better graphics, and the use of the mouse.

Well, there is your answer. TBS games have an OK following but its way too niche to risk putting the type of "real money" required for a modern looking PC game into one, especially on a platform like the PC where gaming is pretty d0med to begin with outside of the MMO space.

Tyjenks

08-14-2007, 02:01 PM

There's a pretty good number of TBS games out there if you're willing to give indie games a try. The graphics obviously aren't commercially competitive, but there's a fairly wide range of options, most of them cheap/free.

That is what I am on the lookout for, Hiro. THe indie titles here and there. One of my life goals is to spend time with Dominions III and grow to lover her as so many do. I did say I was going to do that with II, though, so I may not get around to it until IV.

Any new Tiny Hero games in the works? ;)

slantz

08-14-2007, 02:24 PM

Any new Tiny Hero games in the works? ;)
Alas, Tiny Hero is functionally dead. I had to go find a 'real' job, so I went from working on geeky indie TBS games to working on casual games at PopCap.

That said, you never know where you might find some really kick-ass games in the future that could scratch your itch... I've been watching the casual games industry expand, and there have been some interesting XBLA casual- strategy titles released, and I expect the PC casual games industry to start dabbling in that as well.

Tyjenks

08-14-2007, 02:35 PM

Glad you are earning a living Hiro. :)

The biggest problem with the indie market, from the games that have attracted me and I have purchased, is that there is a good idea that is fleshed out into a good game, but never the depth to keep me occupied longer than 3 or 4 weeks. I realize that could be a function of many constraints: monetary, time availability, etc. It also could be that I am picking the wrong games to play.

I think I am wanting the best of both worlds. A lovingly crafted, original, deep game for a casual game price.

slantz

08-14-2007, 02:54 PM

I think I am wanting the best of both worlds. A lovingly crafted, original, deep game for a casual game price.
Give it time. I honestly believe the market is heading there.

Geo

08-16-2007, 07:56 AM

Dungeons & Dragons Tactics is showing up as in stock *in stores* now too (just about all of the Gamestop/EBs seem to have copies now, according to the Web site; none were yesterday). Mixed initial reviews aside, I'm going to see if I can snag a copy at lunchtime today, fwiw. Maybe we can get a separate thread going for it once a few folks have it. I know nothing about D&D stuff (I'm just a TBS enthusiast), so I won't be much help in knowing how well/poor it applies D&D rules.

Gendal

08-17-2007, 01:52 PM

Anybody know if Jeanne has a chess mode like D&D Tactics? I find that invaluable in squashing my turn based tactic game frustrations. By chess mode I mean something that skips most or all of the animations and just moves everybody around almost instantly.

Having lots of fun with Tactics, but I will keep that discussion for the new specific thread.

ydejin

09-28-2007, 12:05 PM

It's not out yet, but there's Warhammer 40k: Squad Command (http://www.destructoid.com/thq-reveals-warhammer-40k-squad-command-for-ds-psp-33319.phtml) on the way.
Trailer up on GameTrailers. (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/25719.html)

Dirt

09-28-2007, 12:10 PM

Geo

10-04-2007, 10:56 AM

The environmental destructibility in the Warhammer game looks promising. :)

Geo

10-08-2007, 06:52 PM

Reviews for FF Tactics: War of the Lions are pretty enthusiastic so far though I'll bet Jeanne'D'Arc is a better bet for the less hardcore set.

Does anyone know if you can disable the combat animations in FF: Tactics War of the Lions? A bud of mine is asking, he apparently has some nightmares about how long you had to wait for combat animations to play out in the PSX version.

slantz

10-08-2007, 08:11 PM

Does anyone know if you can disable the combat animations in FF: Tactics War of the Lions? A bud of mine is asking, he apparently has some nightmares about how long you had to wait for combat animations to play out in the PSX version.
I'd like to know the answer to that as well.

Also, anyone know if you can undo movement before you attack? In the PSX version, if you moved only to find you needed to be a square over because your spell/bow radius was off by one, you couldn't undo your movement and ended up wasting your turn.

Jeanne D'arc, Disgaea, and other modern tactics games all let you take your movement back before you attack, and I'm sure hoping the FFT remake does too.

jfletch

10-08-2007, 08:17 PM

Reviews for FF Tactics: War of the Lions are pretty enthusiastic so far though I'll bet Jeanne'D'Arc is a better bet for the less hardcore set.

Yea, this sounds about right. Jeanne D'Arc is a neat little game, somewhat vanilla though and I hate the time limit especially on the "get your guys to the right spot" maps. The storyline is absolutely insane, too. I bought it and Im thinking about throwing it up on eBay for FF Tactics.

Geo

10-09-2007, 06:06 AM

>>Also, anyone know if you can undo movement before you attack? In the PSX version, if you moved only to find you needed to be a square over because your spell/bow radius was off by one, you couldn't undo your movement and ended up wasting your turn.

That's one thing I do prefer about Jeanne'D'Arc is sort of visualizing different movement turns without having to commit to them like that. I guess the only way I can find out about the animations (War of the Lions) is to track down the game and get it this week. :)

Warning

10-09-2007, 06:37 AM

DeathMonkey

10-09-2007, 08:46 AM

The (Jeanne D'Arc) storyline is absolutely insane, too. I bought it and Im thinking about throwing it up on eBay for FF Tactics.

If you think the Jeanne D'Arc storyline is insane, FFTactics has an enjoyable, interesting first act, and then goes totally claw-your-eyes out rabid. The final battle involves facing off with Jesus on a pirate ship in another dimension.

Nick Walter

10-09-2007, 08:53 AM

If you think the Jeanne D'Arc storyline is insane, FFTactics has an enjoyable, interesting first act, and then goes totally claw-your-eyes out rabid. The final battle involves facing off with Jesus on a pirate ship in another dimension.

That was my one major complaint with FFT. Despite being an almost perfect game in every respect it was so disappointing that an awesome political intrigue plot turns into some trite senseless save-the-world-from-demons RPG cliche bullshit.

Nick Walter

10-09-2007, 08:54 AM

One thing I like about Jeanne D'Arc and the Fire Emblem series is how you can choose which unit you move next. FFT (if I remember correctly) had your units move in a certain order based on a stat. That always felt very limiting to me.

I prefer the FFT system because it was based on a speed stat and had casting time delays and other timing issues which had to be taken into account. Made for some more statergizing and hard decisions. Well at least it did until the whole party was fully trained calculators. After that the game was a little easy.

Dirt

10-09-2007, 09:02 AM

I never did get a calculator... I'm definitely going to have to get one when I play it again.

slantz

10-09-2007, 10:25 AM

One thing I like about Jeanne D'Arc and the Fire Emblem series is how you can choose which unit you move next. FFT (if I remember correctly) had your units move in a certain order based on a stat. That always felt very limiting to me.
Well, it's just a different design philosophy. I personally find time-based systems like FFT more interesting, but I wouldn't say either is somehow objectively 'better'.

One benefit of this sytem is that a fast character (like, say, a rogue) gets to attack more often than a slow summoner casting big-boom spells. Also, if you move but don't attack (or vice versa), your next turn comes up 25% faster. You can cast Haste and Slow, and these spells do something meaningful. You have fast actions and slow actions, which can be factored into the game's balance and into your decision making.

Of course, you don't get the cool 'just right' potential that you can get from Jeanne D'Arc or Disgaea where you can do just enough damage to kill a guy, or pile healers on a single guy on the brink of death all at once. But then again, your opponents can't do that either....

DeathMonkey

10-09-2007, 11:25 AM

Made for some more statergizing and hard decisions. Well at least it did until the whole party was fully trained calculators. After that the game was a little easy.

That's my main problem with Final Fantasy Tactics; it's "really deep" until you figure out how things work. If strategy games are about making interesting decisions, then Final Fantasy Tactics isn't a very good game. Too many of the abilities are too beneficial (jp up, auto potion) for a player to not use them. Many of the classes are largely useless, such as the knight. (Knights can break weapons, but why not use a thief to steal it instead?) Once the player gets monks, the game is effectively over, because monks can fight, heal, and resurrect.

Another serious problem with the game is that it gives you characters later that are far better than your current party. (T. G. Cid survived many battles where my high level team was annihilated.)

I love the framework of the game, learning abilities, the ruleset, and the art style, but I don't think the game itself is very good once you understand it.

Nick Walter

10-09-2007, 11:35 AM

That's my main problem with Final Fantasy Tactics; it's "really deep" until you figure out how things work. If strategy games are about making interesting decisions, then Final Fantasy Tactics isn't a very good game. Too many of the abilities are too beneficial (jp up, auto potion) for a player to not use them. Many of the classes are largely useless, such as the knight. (Knights can break weapons, but why not use a thief to steal it instead?) Once the player gets monks, the game is effectively over, because monks can fight, heal, and resurrect.

Bwuh? If you think Monks are some game breaking paragon in FFT, you haven't explored the other classes enough. It was calculators that broke the game, everything up until calculators was fine.

Another serious problem with the game is that it gives you characters later that are far better than your current party. (T. G. Cid survived many battles where my high level team was annihilated.)

I agree, that was a little annoying. But the extra characters were designed to be useful treats even to the min maxers. To the totally min/maxed party (ie everyone a fully developed calculator) the enemies wouldn't live long enough for TG Cid to have time to close to melee range.

I love the framework of the game, learning abilities, the ruleset, and the art style, but I don't think the game itself is very good once you understand it.

Couldn't disagree more. Aside from the plot taking that surprising hard left into cliche crapville it was an all around great game.

DeathMonkey

10-09-2007, 11:49 AM

Bwuh? If you think Monks are some game breaking paragon in FFT, you haven't explored the other classes enough. It was calculators that broke the game, everything up until calculators was fine.

Regardless of where the game breaks, it's hard for a knowledgeable player to avoid the shortest path to gain the most broken abilities. I feel like there's a few simple ways to outsmart the game and, once you know those ways, the challenge evaporates. I think the game should have fewer classes and abilities and force the player into real decisions about who to bring into a battle, rather than everyone ending up as Monks/Calculators/your favorite broken class here.

I agree, that was a little annoying. But the extra characters were designed to be useful treats even to the min maxers. To the totally min/maxed party (ie everyone a fully developed calculator) the enemies wouldn't live long enough for TG Cid to have time to close to melee range.

Mustadio (I think that's his name) with his arm aim ability early in the game was a nice treat, but I think giving players characters that are often clearly better than anyone they can have in their party is not good game design. I should enjoy (and be rewarded for) having someone in my party that I've developed into an awesome fighting machine. Having a team member bumped off my starting roster because the game just gave me an incredibly broken character ruins this. (I'm not disagreeing that you can get characters to be better than Cid, only that most players never reach that point.) I think that Fire Emblem handles this mechanic very well by giving you replacement characters later in the game that can fill needed voids if people have fallen, typically without being better than the characters you've nourished from the start.

Nick Walter

10-09-2007, 11:58 AM

Regardless of where the game breaks, it's hard for a knowledgeable player to avoid the shortest path to gain the most broken abilities. I feel like there's a few simple ways to outsmart the game and, once you know those ways, the challenge evaporates. I think the game should have fewer classes and abilities and force the player into real decisions about who to bring into a battle, rather than everyone ending up as Monks/Calculators/your favorite broken class here.

Well the one thing FFT did fairly well was to make it so that you had to put a lot of time into chasing the brokeness. Just having a monk in the party wasn't that powerful, but having a full party who all had monk techniques including chakra and revive was pretty potent in the early game. Of course that took a LOT of grinding in the side fights to make it happen. I've beaten FFT with the full calculator party and boy was the game a cakewalk after I put that party together but man oh man did I waste a TON of time building that party up. It would have been faster in terms of overall playtime to beat the game with a much more conventional mix of characters.

but I think giving players characters that are often clearly better than anyone they can have in their party is not good game design.

I don't think the oddball extra characters were clearly better than what you could cook up yourself with a good combination of classes. Well maybe Cid. They were more of a neat variation but at the end of the game the only one I was ever using was TG Cid.

slantz

10-09-2007, 11:58 AM

Nick Walter

10-09-2007, 12:01 PM

It'll be interesting to see how much, if at all, they changed some of this stuff.

Hey, Puzzle Quest has supposedly fixed all its broken shit in tomorrow's XBLA release. It seems plausable that FFT rebalanced some shit since they were already fuddling with balance by adding new jobs and characters.

I think the degree to which they fiddled with this stuff is going to determine how quickly I buy this. If it's just two new rather silly classes and some hand drawn replacement cutscenes it can wait for the bargain bin. If they rebalanced existing classes then it's a priority purchase.

DeathMonkey

10-09-2007, 12:08 PM

If it's just two new rather silly classes and some hand drawn replacement cutscenes it can wait for the bargain bin. If they rebalanced existing classes then it's a priority purchase.

If they rebalanced the classes, I'll buy FFT the first day it's released (as well as a PSP), outerspace Jesus pirate ship fight and all.

malkav11

10-09-2007, 04:47 PM

Don't forget the full retranslation, which in my opinion is more important than all of the other stuff combined.

And if understanding Tactics' skill system breaks it, it's a good job that they explain practically nothing about it. I mean, in practically every other SRPG I have ever played, they give you very detailed information about exactly what all of your options do. It may be more depth than you can really understand up front (I certainly have that issue in Nippon Ichi games.), but it's there. FF Tactics, not so much. The only way I got anywhere in that game was the strategy guide I bought.

DeathMonkey

10-09-2007, 07:59 PM

Don't forget the full retranslation, which in my opinion is more important than all of the other stuff combined.

But a re-translation won't address the fundamental problems with the storyline - new characters being introduced and then assassinated in the same scene, the typical 32 big jRPG "Christianity is evil, but we can't say that so we'll poorly articulate our frustrations by saying 'the Church' is evil and making you fight the 'Son of God'", and a story so convoluted that you have to read to biographies of every single character to understand the dozens of subplots. An improved translation might make the story more accessible, but I don't think it will make it any good. A dumb story with an improved translation is still dumb.

Mind Elemental

10-09-2007, 09:20 PM

That was my one major complaint with FFT. Despite being an almost perfect game in every respect it was so disappointing that an awesome political intrigue plot turns into some trite senseless save-the-world-from-demons RPG cliche bullshit.

The two plotlines were still intertwined (the demons/church were manipulating some of the noblemen), and the political intrigue plot was far, far more important to the final "state of Ivalice": nobody except Ramza and friends knew about the RPG cliche stuff, but "Delita brings the land back together; Ramza is vilified for hundreds of years!" is integral to the mood and overall story of the game. (Something like that, by the way, is why I disagree with DeathMonkey -- I think FFT has a great story, convolutions and all. How many games would dare to have the hero not only not have a girl to get, but be upstaged by Mr 'The best ways don't always lead to the best ends'?)

My main complaint is characters disappearing from the storyline after they join the party -- Agrias was the game's poster girl, yet she didn't have a single line afer Chapter 2. However, I don't know how you'd get around that, given the fact you can fire party members (or refuse to let them join) or let them perma-die.

Balance-wise, I agree Cid was overpowered; still, I like the special-classed characters, such as Mustard and Agrias. They're certainly better than the usual syndrome of late-joiners being useless, because your normal guys are already so good.

Geo

10-12-2007, 10:16 AM

I started a thread for War of the Lions. Please come over there and visit, even if you just want to bicker. :D I picked it up today, hope to share some impressions in da evenin.

Hey, IGN has impressions of Warhammer 40K: Squad Commander (both versions, DS-PSP)
http://psp.ign.com/articles/826/826674p1.html

Both the PSP and DS versions are the same game. The storyline, missions, and multiplayer options are the same. The major differences are the obvious. The PSP version is graphically superior, with more polished cut scenes, voiceover work and more detailed maps.

The DS is obviously not as graphically inclined, but it makes use of the extra screen real estate and the touch controls. The game can be played with the touch screen, sliding the stylus around to guide the troops, and tapping on enemies to attack. The top screen constantly displays the map, showing the location of all of the player's troops as well as enemies within sight.

Both versions include both local and Wi-Fi multiplayer, as well as a game sharing mode that offers a limited version of the game.It's interesting that the PSP supposedly has "better" voiceover work. Maybe they just mean the sound quality. I can't see why they'd get better voice actors for the PSP version.

malkav11

10-12-2007, 10:25 AM

It may be that it *has* voiceovers, and the DS doesn't. The phrasing isn't real clear.

Geo

10-12-2007, 02:18 PM

I read it as "more polished," but you're right, could just mean "more." Dang writers! :D The environments are destructible -- I'm curious if some walls have more "hit points" or something, or if you can just blow up stuff equally regardless of how thick/thin/strong/weak they are.

BaconTastesGood

10-12-2007, 06:23 PM

Yea, this sounds about right. Jeanne D'Arc is a neat little game, somewhat vanilla though and I hate the time limit especially on the "get your guys to the right spot" maps. The storyline is absolutely insane, too. I bought it and Im thinking about throwing it up on eBay for FF Tactics.

Jeanne D'Arc is now officially my favorite TBS of all time, particularly because it doesn't require:

- crazy amounts of research spent into figuring out how to min/max your characters, equipment, skills, spells, races,jobs, whatever

- very few missions are "play 10 times to figure out the strategy and the do it 'for real' one time"

- almost no places where you're totally fucked because of a decision you made like an hour ago

That last point is huge, since that defines a shelf moment* for me. There is nothing more frustrating than starting a battle and making it through like 45 minutes of combat, to encounter a final enemy that spawns in that can only be hit by a certain character, weapon, or spell. This happened in JD'A a couple times, but that's far less frequent than I see in most TBS games.

* BTG's Definition of Shelf Moment: "A point in a game where you realize the amount of effort required to progress is far beyond the amount of time you're willing to give"

malkav11

10-13-2007, 02:44 AM

Having played Metal Gear Acid 2 some more tonight, one campaign mission, one each of sneaking and elimination missions, and several trial missions, I am more convinced than ever that it is a UMD completely packed with purest awesome. And dirt cheap these days. Man oh man.

If you didn't like Metal Gear Acid, it may still be worth a shot, depending on what exactly you disliked. If you just don't want your Metal Gear to be card-driven and turn-based, MGA2 won't change your mind. But it does overhaul a lot of stuff that was broken and/or annoying in MGA1. Pretty nearly everything, in fact. I enjoyed the first one, but I don't see myself playing it any now that I'm done with it. MGA2...weeks. Months, maybe. Years?

Chris Nahr

11-09-2007, 12:54 AM

While waiting for the holiday flood of games to arrive in my corner of the Third World, I've played a few Field Commander missions. Holy crap, I don't think I've ever seen such a bald-faced clone of another game... namely Advance Wars. Is there even a single game mechanic they've changed?

Overall I much prefer AW -- the cartoony icons are clearer than the 3D models of FC, and the hilarious teenager storyline is much more entertaining than the quasi-realistic SIR YES SIR bullshit. The AI also seems rather dumb, but maybe that's intentional in the first campaign missions.

I guess it's okay if you don't own a DS, or if you've already finished all the Advance Wars games...

theblackw0lf

11-09-2007, 01:06 PM

I hate to be one of "those people", but I've never played FFT, and I've already read a couple of things about the storyline that I wish I hadn't. Fortunately I learned to spot when somebody might be unveiling more of the story, so not too much has been spoiled for me. But people should put spoiler warnings when discussing the story.

Iron Xides

11-09-2007, 01:23 PM

Based on the spoilers I've seen you can probably pretend they're all crazy lies anyway. And then you can be righteously outraged when you learn the truth!

slantz

11-09-2007, 02:08 PM

While waiting for the holiday flood of games to arrive in my corner of the Third World, I've played a few Field Commander missions. Holy crap, I don't think I've ever seen such a bald-faced clone of another game... namely Advance Wars. Is there even a single game mechanic they've changed?
Totally. They made the interface slow, klunky, and awkward!

Though in all seriousness, they did add a couple new unit types and minor mechanics which are kinda-sorta interesting. But the whole time it felt like I was trying to play Advance Wars with attempted-realistic graphics done by a college art major, viewed through beer goggles and played in a vat of mayonaise.

Dirt

11-09-2007, 02:26 PM

Advance Wars is a clone of Military Madness on the TurboGrafx-16.

Edit: Oops, I guess the earliest version of Advance Wars came out a year earlier than Military Madness, so MM is a clone of that.

slantz

11-09-2007, 03:52 PM

Advance Wars is a clone of Military Madness on the TurboGrafx-16.

Edit: Oops, I guess the earliest version of Advance Wars came out a year earlier than Military Madness, so MM is a clone of that.
Yeah, and frankly, when I bought Military Madness on my Wii VC, I was flabbergasted as to how shallow (and frankly, bad) it was. Advance Wars, starting with the GBA iterations at least, is night and day different from Military Madness.

Chris Nahr

11-10-2007, 02:03 AM

Absolutely. I also bought Military Madness on the VC because everyone said it's like Advance Wars... and frankly it's outdated crap. AW took the basic concept of MM and greatly expanded on it. FC simply cloned AW and made it worse.

Having played a few more missions, the FC AI really seems to be completely retarded. AW is no strategic genius but its units usually attack in packs and guard each other quite well. FC units run around on their own, trying to get themselves killed as quickly as possible.

It's a mystery why the AI is so extremely slow, given that it's both worse than the AW AI and running on a faster CPU. I swear I spend more time waiting for the AI than moving my own units. Fairly disappointing game all told.