Californexico by 2050

[Midnight Son]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070711/ap_on_re_us/brf_california_population

California is about to get a lot more crowded.

The nation's most populous state will have 59.5 million residents when it reaches the mid-century mark — nearly 22 million more than today, the state Department of Finance predicted Monday.

Hispanics will make up 52 percent of the population in 2050, up from 36 percent now. Whites, now 43 percent of the population, will drop to 26 percent, while Asians' share will grow by 1 percentage point to 13 percent, and blacks will decline from 6 percent to 5 percent, according to the department's forecast.

Hispanics are projected to become a majority of the population by 2042.

The report is updated every three to five years by the department's demographics unit.

Not that there's anything wrong with that!

[Athryn]

You know that there were plenty of hispanics already in the state when Americans got there, right? A lot of native Californians (not just native Americans either) were pushed off of their land during the Gold Rush era.

Pick up a copy of "The Age of Gold," by H.W. Brands, it's one of the best books on early California history I've ever read, and I learned a ton from it. It should be required reading for any CA history class.

California has always been inextricably tied to hispanic culture, and for some reason people don't understand that, even though they may have grown up in cities with Spanish names and grew up on streets with Spanish names.

[Midnight Son]

Hell, I heard there were people there before the hispanics!

[Rollory]

You know that there were plenty of hispanics already in the state when Americans got there, right?

Who gives a crap? Other than the racists at MEChA, that is.

Some people got shoved around a hundred fifty years ago. Nobody today has had any of their rights infringed, so that's an end to the matter. It's interesting from a historical perspective and absolutely not any justification for taking any kind of action - certainly not changing California from a place with the sort of population that makes it prosperous and California-y into a place with the sort of population that makes it corrupt and Mexico-y.

If we were getting doctors and scientists and computer techs out of Mexico, there'd be a lot less to complain about. Desis don't cause nearly the same waves; there's an inherent intelligence test being applied there.

[bigdruid]

Some people got shoved around a hundred fifty years ago. Nobody today has had any of their rights infringed, so that's an end to the matter. It's interesting from a historical perspective and absolutely not any justification for taking any kind of action - certainly not changing California from a place with the sort of population that makes it prosperous and California-y into a place with the sort of population that makes it corrupt and Mexico-y.

If we were getting doctors and scientists and computer techs out of Mexico, there'd be a lot less to complain about. Desis don't cause nearly the same waves; there's an inherent intelligence test being applied there.
That may be the most racist thing I've read on this board. Congratulations!

In my opinion, immigrant mexican labor is the thing that *makes* California prosperous, and that agriculture is the base that the economy is built on and creates the environment to allow other industries to flourish.

Tell me something. How long have you lived in California?

[Dave47]

Who gives a crap? Other than the racists at MEChA, that is.

Some people got shoved around a hundred fifty years ago. Nobody today has had any of their rights infringed, so that's an end to the matter. It's interesting from a historical perspective and absolutely not any justification for taking any kind of action - certainly not changing California from a place with the sort of population that makes it prosperous and California-y into a place with the sort of population that makes it corrupt and Mexico-y.

If we were getting doctors and scientists and computer techs out of Mexico, there'd be a lot less to complain about. Desis don't cause nearly the same waves; there's an inherent intelligence test being applied there.
Mexican immigrants do not wish to escape their corrupt government and weak economy, but instead to transplant their government and economy to California.

[Athryn]

I'm not saying turn it into a part of Mexico, I'm just saying that the state already has a rich hispanic heritage, and somehow raising some sort of hue and cry because there are more hispanics there is stupid. It's an extremely diverse state, one of the most diverse in the country.


I do like the 'just because a couple of people were shoved around" argument tho. That's like "just because a couple of your ancestors were owned by other people doesn't give you cause to whine" huh?

I know there were native americans there before even the spanish, I grew up in a part of California that their presence is still felt, even though they're gone. I was addressing the facet of CA history dealing with hispanics, one of many different ethic groups that have a very long history in the state.

Go read the book I recommended perhaps. It is an eye opener on the history of the state.

[bigdruid]

You're missing the point, Athryn. He's saying history is irrelevant - whitey owns CA now, and he's only going to let the "good" brown people in there.

[Ben]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070711/ap_on_re_us/brf_california_population


Not that there's anything wrong with that!

There isn't anything wrong with that if you aren't a racist sack of shit. Oh, wait, you are a racist sack of shit. Nevermind.

[Athryn]

You're missing the point, Athryn. He's saying history is irrelevant - whitey owns CA now, and he's only going to let the "good" brown people in there.


Speaking of this whole subject, the county I live in in VA has passed one of the most racist anti-immigrant measures (http://www.nbc4.com/politics/13656072/detail.html?rss=dc&psp=news) in the country. :|

[drewl]

I don't know why it's racist to find out if the person you've pulled over is a criminal. Don't they usually run your plates or check for wants/warrants?

Hell, I got pulled over in Rochester NY for no seatbelt and got the 3rd degree just for being an out of stater.

[Midnight Son]

There isn't anything wrong with that if you aren't a racist sack of shit. Oh, wait, you are a racist sack of shit. Nevermind.

I'm not 100% in love with your tone right now......

Can't even post a news report without becoming a racist sack of shit! What in the name or Rupert Murdoch, Rush Limburger, Lou Dobbs and Pat Buchanan is the world coming too?

[Bill Dungsroman]

Speaking of this whole subject, the county I live in in VA has passed one of the most racist anti-immigrant measures (http://www.nbc4.com/politics/13656072/detail.html?rss=dc&psp=news) in the country. :|
I wasn't sweating this bill too much until I hit this part:

A majority of board members have said they support the resolution but agreed that changes could still be made to the bill such as denying medical services to illegal immigrants.
Dang. That's not cool, mang.

[bigdruid]

Can't even post a news report without becoming a racist sack of shit!


Midnight Son
Posts: 8,806

I'm guessing it's stuff you've said in your *other* 8804 posts that's coming back to haunt you here. Just a guess.

[Midnight Son]

I'm guessing it's stuff you've said in your *other* 8804 posts that's coming back to haunt you here. Just a guess.

Impossible! I blame ze jews!

[Midnight Son]

I wasn't sweating this bill too much until I hit this part:

A majority of board members have said they support the resolution but agreed that changes could still be made to the bill such as denying medical services to illegal immigrants.

Dang. That's not cool, mang.

That is uncool and downright Un-American.

[Rollory]

In my opinion, immigrant mexican labor is the thing that *makes* California prosperous

Your opinion, precisely. Lacking in facts. The state's prosperity started waaay back before this was such a big issue - 1950s at least, probably before. They had guest worker programs even back then but it was entirely marginal, nothing like the massive demographic shift that has happened in the past couple decades. California had the best school system in the country 40 years ago. It's been going downhill for the past 20 years or so, which correlates nicely (as do a lot of other issues) with the really big rise in illegal immigration. Silicon Valley also has nothing to do with Mexican labor.

He's saying history is irrelevant

Irrelevant? Of course it's relevant. What it does *not* do is make people guilty for things that happened before they existed.

Anyway, I lived in California quite a while. Born there, actually. Which makes me wonder - if your line about history seriously *is* an argument that blood-and-soil is a justification for hereditary right to land, why would an immigrant from Mexico have more of a right to live there than native-born whites?

Mexican immigrants do not wish to escape their corrupt government and weak economy, but instead to transplant their government and economy to California.

That they want to leave it does not mean they are not partially responsible for it. Any people is responsible for the societies they build - societies and their attendant benefits and problems don't show up by magic out of thin air.

That they don't *intend* to do what you describe doesn't mean that won't happen. For every heartwarming story about the hardworking Mexican contractor and maid you can find one about slums and gangs. You *don't* have that duality with "good" immigrants, which is precisely WHY they are "good".

raising some sort of hue and cry because there are more hispanics there is stupid.

If that was the only reason for raising a hue and cry you'd be right. What we are actually doing though is importing specifically from the Mexican underclass as opposed from all strata equally. The whole REASON they are coming here is that they are uneducated and often unskilled. That is *not* going to improve the country, not without the frontier to sort out the chaff. There is also a case to be made that at least a large segment of those immigrants don't feel any particular loyalty towards the gringo nation. You let an attitude like that in in large numbers, you're asking for trouble down the road.

I do like the 'just because a couple of people were shoved around" argument tho. That's like "just because a couple of your ancestors were owned by other people doesn't give you cause to whine" huh?

Precisely correct.

Speaking of this whole subject, the county I live in in VA has passed one of the most racist anti-immigrant measures (http://www.nbc4.com/politics/13656072/detail.html?rss=dc&psp=news) in the country. :|

Why is it racist?


denying medical services to illegal immigrants.

Dang. That's not cool, mang.

Good (wrong) point. This is why the universal health care debate and the immigration debate are fundamentally the same thing. The liberal ideal is that we have enough prosperity here to give to everybody who wants it and the cost can be spread out across enough citizens that nobody "should" complain at the extra burden.

Leaving aside the issue of who gets to decide what "should" should be, there's more people wanting in than we could ever take care of. Prosperity of any sort - health care, schools, gainful employment, gang-free neighborhoods, whatever - has to be created by somebody, and that somebody has to be paid a certain amount otherwise they'll go get paid better somewhere else. US prosperity is large, but limited. You cannot divide up a finite supply among an infinite demand. (which goes right back to why focusing on letting in "good brown people" - the more productive, capable, and intelligent - first is better for everyone in the long run)

Sure it sucks to go to a hospital and get turned away. You have a problem with it? Pay up front with cash. I'm pretty sure you'll get treated then. Not enough money? Then why do you think you have a right to take the value the hospital produces?

As of a year ago, there were 11 emergency rooms in LA county, where there had originally been 32. That is what happens when you take something without paying for it; which is precisely what the illegal immigrants do with emergency room care.

[Ed Solomon]

Californexico by 2050
Oh my God Midnight, do you realize what this means? By 2050 California's population will a be a few more percentage points Hispanic than New Mexico is right now.

New Mexico, Midnight. New Mexico! Where they put fried eggs on top of there enchiladas and beans in their chili. BEANS!

What are we going to do? WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO!

[Ed Solomon]

Sure it sucks to go to a hospital and get turned away. You have a problem with it? Pay up front with cash. I'm pretty sure you'll get treated then. Not enough money? Then why do you think you have a right to take the value the hospital produces?
So, is it all poor people that you want to be left to die or just poor illegal immigrants?

[Euri]

Really? Eggs on their enchiladas? Inhuman.

[Robert Sharp]

Mmmm....eggs and enchiladas sounds fantastic, actually. What a great recipe to find in a thread that otherwise stinks of liberal finger-pointing.

[Midnight Son]

Oh my God Midnight, do you realize what this means? By 2050 California's population will a be a few more percentage points Hispanic than New Mexico is right now.

New Mexico, Midnight. New Mexico! Where they put fried eggs on top of there enchiladas and beans in their chili. BEANS!

What are we going to do? WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO!

I really don't care. I just post shit that'll get people off. Seems to be working fine.

[Ed Solomon]

I really don't care. I just post shit that'll get people off. Seems to be working fine.
So you really don't like all those incredibly crappy webcomics?

[Athryn]

Irrelevant? Of course it's relevant. What it does *not* do is make people guilty for things that happened before they existed.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

12345

[Midnight Son]

So you really don't like all those incredibly crappy webcomics?

You must have me confused with someone else.

[Ed Solomon]

You must have me confused with someone else.
Sorry, I always get you and Rimbo confused.

[Grifman]

Speaking of this whole subject, the county I live in in VA has passed one of the most racist anti-immigrant measures (http://www.nbc4.com/politics/13656072/detail.html?rss=dc&psp=news) in the country. :|

How is race involved? And it's not anti-immigrant - the law says nothing about LEGAL immigrants, but ILLEGAL immigrants. There's a difference, you know.

[Funkula]

Sorry, I always get you and Rimbo confused.
Buuuurn.

[Glenn]

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."12345The General that sacked the Alamo said that?

[Midnight Son]

The General that sacked the Alamo said that?

No that was Carlos Santana.

[Midnight Son]

Sorry, I always get you and Rimbo confused.

It's understandable. Those black uniforms are spiffy.

[bigdruid]

blah blah
First off, I want to say: Fuck you, you racist fuck. Just to put this conversation on the proper footing.

And now...
California had the best school system in the country 40 years ago. It's been going downhill for the past 20 years or so, which correlates nicely (as do a lot of other issues) with the really big rise in illegal immigration. Silicon Valley also has nothing to do with Mexican labor.

Shockingly, the GDP of California (http://www.dof.ca.gov/HTML/FS_DATA/LatestEconData/Data/Miscellaneous/Bbgsp.xls) has nearly tripled in the last 20 years, and there's a nearly 20x increase over the last 40 years, which also corresponds to this same rise in immigration. But, of course, since you're a racist, you'll only cherry-pick the negative changes and ignore the positive ones, even though there's no real evidence that any of these changes positive or negative are significantly linked to immigration.

You want to blame someone who is *actually* responsible for California's woes? Blame Howard Jarvis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Jarvis) and the property tax revolt from 20-odd years ago - less money in the coffers = shitty schools.


Irrelevant? Of course it's relevant. What it does *not* do is make people guilty for things that happened before they existed.

The point is not that "hey, the Mexicans are just reclaiming what is theirs - boot out the white man and make him pay for his guilt", but rather "historically speaking, a heavily hispanic California is not particularly unusual, and we shouldn't get too freaked out about it".



That they want to leave it does not mean they are not partially responsible for it. Any people is responsible for the societies they build - societies and their attendant benefits and problems don't show up by magic out of thin air.

Dude, this fucking country was *created* by immigrants. People who found the problems in their own country were intractable, people who were the *victims* of oppressive and corrupt governments, not the cause of them. Nothing has changed in the intervening centuries.

All the shit you are trotting out is no different from the Know Nothings of the 19th century who attacked the irish and german immigrants (they weren't "good" immigrants like the Swedes and the French). It's just racist bullshit.


If that was the only reason for raising a hue and cry you'd be right. What we are actually doing though is importing specifically from the Mexican underclass as opposed from all strata equally.

Which is, of course, bullshit. NAFTA already gives priority to immigrants from Mexico with various skill sets and levels of higher education. It turns out that people with those skill sets see no reason to emigrate - it's *always* been the poor and the disenfranchised that came to America. You know, your "huddled masses yearning to breathe free"?

As I said, nothing has changed since America was founded - the poor and wretched of the world have always wanted to come to America to build a better life for themselves, and the small minded and racist, like yourself, have always tried to keep them out.


The whole REASON they are coming here is that they are uneducated and often unskilled.

...and willing to work their ass off. That puts them several steps above a significant number of people who were born here, to be honest.


Sure it sucks to go to a hospital and get turned away. You have a problem with it? Pay up front with cash. I'm pretty sure you'll get treated then. Not enough money? Then why do you think you have a right to take the value the hospital produces?

This is more of a question of poor vs rich, not immigrant vs citizen. And why are the emergency rooms filled with poor people? Because we don't have any reasonable sort of managed care for the poor, so the only way to treat an infection, or get an impacted tooth pulled is to go to the emergency room - they can't see a regular doctor or dentist.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Good (wrong) point. This is why the universal health care debate and the immigration debate are fundamentally the same thing. The liberal ideal is that we have enough prosperity here to give to everybody who wants it and the cost can be spread out across enough citizens that nobody "should" complain at the extra burden.
Wow, those wacky liberals. My personal ideal is that regardless of how much wealth we may or may not have, we should not push the sick out into the streets no matter what fucking color they are. It's not about being liberal, it's about being decent.



As of a year ago, there were 11 emergency rooms in LA county, where there had originally been 32. That is what happens when you take something without paying for it; which is precisely what the illegal immigrants do with emergency room care.
Yes, only illegal immigrants don't pay their exhorbitant ER bills. Right.

[Midnight Son]

Yes, only illegal immigrants don't pay their exhorbitant ER bills. Right.

While I don't speak for Darth Rollory above, I believe there are other Untermenschen he doesn't like......

[Dirt]

The problem isn't the school system itself, it's the population. It also has to do with the statistics of whether or not kids succeed. Unfortunately, most of the immigrants (as it always has been) are the poor people of a country. Poor people value being able to work over education.

[bigdruid]

The irony of the legislation that Athryn linked to, is that it's designed to keep immigrants *from using the library*.

Isn't the main anti-immigration canard that these people aren't literate, aren't interested in assimilating to our culture, aren't interested in learning our language, etc? So we ban them from the libraries? WTF?

[Ben]

I don't see no Americans. I see trespassers, Irish harps. Do a job for a nickel what a nigger does for a dime and a white man used to get a quarter for. What have they done? Name one thing they've contributed.

[Midnight Son]

Gangs of Noo Jawk. Bam!

[Brandon Clements]

Goddamn, was there a white sheet blue-light special at K-Mart?

[Brandon Clements]

Also, to add some content, I'd love to see some study done on immigration's effect on food, unskilled, and skilled labor pricing in this country. Go from, say, 1980 to 2005 or so.

[Jason McCullough]

Ok (http://guerillawomentn.blogspot.com/2006/03/krugman-immigration-facts.html).

Second, while immigration may have raised overall income slightly, many of the worst-off native-born Americans are hurt by immigration — especially immigration from Mexico. Because Mexican immigrants have much less education than the average U.S. worker, they increase the supply of less-skilled labor, driving down the wages of the worst-paid Americans. The most authoritative recent study of this effect, by George Borjas and Lawrence Katz of Harvard, estimates that U.S. high school dropouts would earn as much as 8 percent more if it weren't for Mexican immigration.

I'd say competition from immigrants is about #37 on the problem list of less-educated workers, however.

[Brandon Clements]

My main thrust in my last post is that immigrants aren't coming here to suck welfare teet, as there isn't really that much milk to go around anyway.

However, we are willing to have low skilled labor come over to work for not much in pay to do the jobs that, were there no immigration, would command higher pay, to wit:

-manual migrant fruit and vegetable picking

-'dirty' unskilled to semi-skilled labor (meat, particulary chicken in my part of the country, processing; landscaping and yard work)

-skilled labor that's not particulary high paying, or bid on a lowest-price basis (cooking and construction come to mind immedietly).

We can't have both cheap and invisible methods of production for most commodities that we purchase on a daily basis. Hope you've got those eye holes cut in that white hood, MS and Rollory, when you see who is cleaning your bedpans in the hospital, picking the vegetables you're using in your salad, or making your omlette down at the diner. Or building your multiple houses, in the case of MS.

[Jason McCullough]

This is interesting (http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2007/07/immigrants-and-.html).


On first thought, it might seem that the simple economics of supply and demand would answer the question: What is the effect of immigrants on wages? Immigrants increase the supply of labor. Hence, they should decrease the wages of native workers, reduce their employment opportunities, or push them to other states. The question, however, is more subtle than this, because all workers are not the same: They differ by education, skills, and occupation and perform jobs and productive tasks different from and complementary....
In nontechnical terms, the wages of native workers could increase because the increased supply of migrants is likely to put native workers in jobs where they perform supervisory, managerial, training, and in general interactive and coordinating tasks, which makes them more productive. Moreover, the presence of new workers also implies higher demand for consumption, so that immigration might simply increase total production and demand without depressing wages...

[antlers]

One of the problems with the large and unregulated influx of low-skilled labor that I think a lot of economists have ignored is that it reduces the economic incentive to develop automation and the productivity improvements that go with it.

[Damien Neil]

Speaking as someone who lives in the Land Invaded By Horrid Brown People From The South: I have no problems with this trend, so long as a reasonable number of Hispanics continue to open good restaurants here. Mmmm, enchiladas de mole.

Need more people from El Salvador, though. Salvadorian food rocks.

The music is pretty good as well, although I'm pretty happy that the people next door who played mariachi into the wee hours of the morning moved out. Nothing wrong with mariachi, but there's a limit.

[Midnight Son]

I went to my local bodega today - it's called Walmart - and evidendly anglos don't work there anymore. Oh well.

[unbongwah]

Isn't the main anti-immigration canard that these people aren't literate, aren't interested in assimilating to our culture, aren't interested in learning our language, etc?
No, the main canard behind legislation like the one Athryn linked is "These people are here illegally and aren't paying taxes; therefore, they're not entitled to public services." Which makes sense: not a taxpayer, not allowed to use gov't services.

Of course, if you just let these people stay here legally, then they would start paying taxes - local, state, and federal - and actually be contributing to the government's coffers, not simply draining them. But don't dare mention the A-word around these folks!

[Nick Walter]

No, the main canard is "These people are here illegally and aren't paying taxes; therefore, they're not entitled to public services." Which makes sense: not a taxpayer, not allowed to use gov't services.

Of course, if you just let these people stay here legally, then they would start paying taxes - local, state, and federal - and actually be contributing to the government's coffers, not simply draining them. But don't dare mention the A-word around these folks!

Why wouldn't illegals pay taxes? It's not like it's avoidable, the taxes are withheld straight from the paychecks.

[Midnight Son]

Why wouldn't illegals pay taxes? It's not like it's avoidable, the taxes are withheld straight from the paychecks.

Paychecks? What are you talking about? Most of them get cash, under the table.

[LesJarvis]

Paychecks? What are you talking about? Most of them get cash, under the table.

Wow, that's really impressive, because it means they must be voluntarily sending roughly $7 billion a year (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090) to the Social Security administration. How generous!

[Midnight Son]

How did he and the others get a valid social security number? It's nice of them to send money in, knowing they'll never get any back. (Which goes for the rest of us, too.)

[LesJarvis]

How did he and the others get a valid social security number?

They don't, they use fakes, but the payroll taxes still get taken out. They just don't get any SS benefits for the money they pay in. Relevant quotes from the article:

It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions.

"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.

[Midnight Son]

I sit corrected. (I realize this is a rarity on the intarnetweb.)

[unbongwah]

OK, guess I was operating under old data, as it looks like the IRS has been quietly collecting tax revenue from illegals (http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/04/11_tonessb_illegal/) for a while now.
Nine years ago, the IRS created the Individual Tax Identification Number. The idea then was to collect taxes from rich foreigners with investments in the United States. The IRS soon realized it could also use the number to tap into the untaxed cash economy where many illegal immigrants work.
Presumably there are still plenty of illegals who deal only in cash and never pay taxes, though. So I still think you'd collect more revenue if you gave them legal status. But `nuther can o' worms `n all that.

[Ranulf]

12345

Amazing.. I have the same combination on my luggage!

[StGabe]

Your opinion, precisely. Lacking in facts. The state's prosperity started waaay back before this was such a big issue - 1950s at least, probably before. They had guest worker programs even back then but it was entirely marginal, nothing like the massive demographic shift that has happened in the past couple decades. California had the best school system in the country 40 years ago. It's been going downhill for the past 20 years or so, which correlates nicely (as do a lot of other issues) with the really big rise in illegal immigration. Silicon Valley also has nothing to do with Mexican labor.
Migrant workers have been working heavily in California since the 50's so I'm not sure what you are saying. Have you heard of Cesar Chavez? Yeah, he was doing his thing back in 1946. The only difference between now and then is that we're more aware of migrant labor and tolerant enough to start trying to understand its implications.

I'ved lived in California for almost half my life. When I was a kid we were the 7th most powerful economy in the world (compared to other countries). Now we're the 5th. Gee look at how we're just withering under the plight of migrant labor. Yes, the education systems have taken a hit. Blame stupid, upper and middle class white conservatives for that.

Anyway, I have a quick fix for people who still have fucked up ideas about migrant labor. Spend a few days performing the jobs that migrant workers fill. You have NO fucking clue. Try lifting 100 lb. Christmas trees 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. I've actually done a lot of these jobs and they are extremely physically painful. (and yes, I was in very good shape when I did this). I had a job once planting seeds where the seed planter literally rubbed significant patches of the skin off my hand (not a mechanical failure or accident, just part of the job). For minimum wage. Do YOU want to do that? Do you know any white California natives that do? Now read up on some statistics on how important agriculture has been, through the years, for the California economy.

We are making a conscious choice to import physical labor to California because the economy needs it. When I lived in Oregon (I've now oved back to CA) I lived next to one of the biggest Christmas tree growers in the country (his family responsible for a large % of all the Christmas trees sold in the US). He had the governor on speed dial. These guys are the reasons that illegal immigrants have been so tolerated for so long. They make a lot of fucking money and they are 100% dependent on migrant labor to do it. Allowing illegal immigrants in to the country is just a cheap/sleazy way to say, "sure, come do our crappy jobs but we reserve the right to kick you out later".

[StGabe]

OK, guess I was operating under old data, as it looks like the IRS has been quietly collecting tax revenue from illegals (http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/04/11_tonessb_illegal/) for a while now.

Longer than that. Most migrant workers work for large companies that are not paying under the table. They fill out W2's just like you and I do (and their employees just fail to notice that they are all using crappily forged social security cards). Then they get income tax taken out of their checks. I can vouch that this was standard practice 20 years ago and almost certainly for a lot longer than that. I', not 100% sure how this works but I have to imagine a lot of them get overtaxed because they never fill out a tax return to get whatever refunds they are due.

So yeah, sorry to burst the conservative bubble but most migrant workers are tax payers whether they are citizens or not.

edit: oops, guess this was already respond to ... still more corroboration of the above

[Rimbo]

Just out of curiosity, I see a lot of folks arguing and screaming here, but I just want to understand: What exactly is the issue here?

[bigdruid]

The issue is that Rollory was, and is, a fucking racist who dropped his little hate bomb then scurried off back to whatever rock he lives under, leaving us to continue to beat this dead horse into the ground.

[Lum]

I'm just amused that the only reason Rollory assumes most Indian migrants are doctors and programmers instead of low-skilled labor is some sort of racial profiling and not, say, that low-skilled labor finds it more affordable to walk across the Rio Grande than to book a flight from Mumbai.

[RepoMan]

Well done on the counter-bomb though, bigdruid. I expected Rollory to have more fight than that, but you seem to have pulled his sheet off very decisively.