Buffy finale (spoilers)

[Toddy]

Wow. It's hard to believe that a show could end so poorly. "Chosen" is stunningly bad, even for those of us who've come to really hate Buffy the past two seasons. Joss Whedon seems to have just tossed a lot lot of crap at the screen simply to get the show over with. A lot of it makes no sense, especially when you consider the earlier part of the season. And this isn't just supergeek stuff; all of this just doesn't make dramatic sense. Like...

--What the hell was Buffy's plan? She decided to open the portal--for what? Was she intending to kill the thousands of Ubervampires in there? One almost killed them all earlier in the season, yet she thought this wouldn't be an issue if she powered up a dozen or so Slayers? How does this make any sense?

--Where did that amulet come from? Angel just shows up with thing and it's deus ex machina time? Lame.

--How did Buffy survive that mortal wound? She gets a sword through the gut, falls, yet gets up when she sees everyone falling around her, miraculously healed. There's no mention of her injury the rest of the episode, either. Not even an attempt to explain it away as a power that the super Slayer Ax conferred on her. She just gets pissed off, gets up, kills lots of bad guys, then escapes the school by running over rooftops and leaping onto a bus. And the special effects of the school collapsing at the end were terrible. We're talking Elvis movie bad. The background looked like it had been projected onto a wall behind the actress with a film projector.

--Oh, and it's a good thing that someone armed the Ubies with swords specially for the climactic battle, seeing as the good guys came with melee weapons, too.

--The Ubervamp weakness. Buffy got her ass kicked over and over again early in the season by the first Ubie, yet the Slayers-in-Training managed to kill dozens of them moments after getting full powers. Huh? Even regular humans were slicing them up here. Made no sense at all.

--The First Evil barely even shows up. There's no confrontation, no showdown, nothing. She taunts Buffy, then vanishes, never to be seen again. What was its plan? What about all the corporeal threats? What the hell was Caleb supposed to be doing? Oh, and the way he was killed, by being cut in half balls first, was the ultimate example of the way that Marti Noxon feminazified the show over the past two years. I'm all for the strong portrayal of women, but does that have to mean that the men are humiliated and emasculated? The way that the characters of Spike, Xander, and Giles were butchered the past two years brough the whole show down.

--Angel seemed like he was high. The lines were wildly out of character and just flat-out stupid. "I did the soul thing first." The world's about to end and he's suddenly 12? Same with Faith. Do hot bad girls always end each sentence with "Yo"? She seemed like a reject from Malibu's Most Wanted. Don't be hatin'.

--Anya dies the dumbest death of any regular in TV show history. She gets essentially cut in half, but the shot is so quick we can barely register it. Her body isn't shown. Andrew, who's the only one with her, bizarrely enough, doesn't even really react. We don't know she's dead for sure until Xander "looks" for her for about three seconds while running out of the school. He doesn't look very hard, but we get a shot of her dead face. Sort of effective. Though that's ruined right after by Xander making jokes about her death with Andrew and then joining the whole cast to make more jokes at the pit than was once Sunnydale. It was like how Kirk and Bones used to tease Spock at end of a Star Trek episode, even though they'd just sent a bunch of redshirts to their doom. I wonder if this was a shot at Emma Caulfield for announcing that she wanted off the show last year?

--Wood's "death" had more emotional resonance. And his faking out Faith was just cruel. Dozens of kids have just been slaughtered, yet he decides this is a good time to play a joke on Faith? Huh?

--Great battle plan in the school. Okay, let's see, we better put all the helpess losers together to increase the body count. Wood, you can handle yourself, so you better team up with Giles. Anya, you're pathetic, so you better go with the D&D geek, Andrew. Have fun!

--Buffy's cookie analogy may be a low point in the series, in terms of writing.

--I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff, but this is enough for now. I'm just very, very glad that that's the end of the show. It's amazing to see just how low the show sunk over the past two years since Whedon let Marti Noxon take over.

[Guido Jones]

--Where did that amulet come from? Angel just shows up with thing and it's deus ex machina time? Lame.

I take it you didn't see the last episode of Angel.....

SPOILER Below for Angel
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Basically the Evil Law Firm that angel has been fighting for 4 seasons basically decides to relenquish control of LA to Angel and Crew in the last episode - but only if they take control of the LA HQ of Wolfram & Hart (the lawfirm). This is basically seen as a Deal with the Devil sort of thing, and what they used to entice Angel was:

1. Being able to save Cordie
2. Being able to save his son
3. Being able to save Buffy - They handed him the medallion and a dossier for the entire Bruhaha in Sunnydale.

I haven't seen the last episode yet (I'll grab the VCD tonight)....but yeah, this season was dissappointing. It was much better then last, but ugh.

[DennyA]

I just can't believe that Buffy the Vampire Slayer threw realism to the wind like that. :twisted:

[AlexxKay]

I think the finale epitomized a lot of both Joss Whedon's strengths and weaknesses. I though that the characterization for everyone (including Angel) was spot-on, and I laughed at most of the jokes. The scene of little-girl slayers being empowered worked well for me. On an emotional level, the show reached closure.

On the other hand, the plot sucked large. Joss has never really cared about holes in plot logic, as long as he got the emotional arc he wanted. This has been showing really badly all season, and was certainly on display in the finale. They never really established a plausible motive for The First, nor did they show how (if?) it was defeated. Ditto for lack of explanations about the scythe, or Spike's mystic doodad, or just exactly what/how Willow's spell worked, or, really, anything plot-related. Sigh.

[I didn't think Wood was faking, I thought he was actually about to buy it there, but managed to pull himself back.]

[Matthew Gallant]

Xander and Anya's relationship was pretty much my favorite thing about the series. They were the two most strongly written characters, in my opinion, by which I mean the funniest. I'm mildly ticked that their relationship was only half resolved by the end.

It seems like killing her off was in fact based on her grousing, but because the show was ending anyway that seems kind of dumb. Then again, death in Buffyland isn't something to get down about and maybe that's what kept Xander upbeat. I'm sure when Emma's movie career stalls Anya will be back on whatever Buffy spinoffs are active at the time.

[Toddy]

You say that like you think Emma's stunning display in Darkness Falls won't propel her to a long and fruitful movie career.

[XPav]

Well, just watched it.

So, when I said that its obvious Spike won't die in the other Buffy thread, I was of course, wrong. However, now we get to watch next season of Angel bring him back somehow. That's sorta sad, because he death wasn't so bad.

Anya's death was lame and didn't really seem to add anything to the plot.

I'm also trying to figure out how The First got defeated.

Why didn't Willow just do the Scythe Spell at home before they went into action?

In short, ehh.

[Matthew Gallant]

Why didn't Willow just do the Scythe Spell at home before they went into action?
Well, it must have involved being close to the seal, because they mentioned that she would be right above it.

[Brad Grenz]

--Anya dies the dumbest death of any regular in TV show history. She gets essentially cut in half, but the shot is so quick we can barely register it. Her body isn't shown. Andrew, who's the only one with her, bizarrely enough, doesn't even really react. We don't know she's dead for sure until Xander "looks" for her for about three seconds while running out of the school. He doesn't look very hard, but we get a shot of her dead face. Sort of effective.

Hey, if you thought she might have survived being cut in half, that's you're problem, not the episodes. Xander doesn't look very hard because the school is collapsing and Dawn drags him away.


XPav wrote:
Why didn't Willow just do the Scythe Spell at home before they went into action?

Well, it must have involved being close to the seal, because they mentioned that she would be right above it.

I believe it was for the element of surprise. They wanted to launch a first strike, a surprise attack. Willow couldn't have work that kind of mojo without the First noticing. By doing it only after they were in the Orcs had little time for an organized defense and the Bringer reinforcements didn't get there til it was almost over.


Anya's death was lame and didn't really seem to add anything to the plot.

Anya's death was like Spike's. In that final momont she conquered her irrational fears, her issue, reclaimed her lost humanity and died a heros death. They'd been building to this for a while, especially with the scene of her and Andrew in the hospital. That she was so assured of her survival and he was so sure of his impending death all but guranteed the inverse (in the world of Joss that's how things work). Andrew's imagined glorious death was the last fantasy he clinged to, Anya's sacrifice denied him that and now he finally has to come to terms with reality.


I'm also trying to figure out how The First got defeated.

In that his master plan was for the ubervamps to overrun the world, them all dying kinda put a hamper on that. If you're asking whether the First was destroyed, no. You can't kill the "First Evil". All you can do is foil its plans and hinder its influence.

Obviously, I think you guys with your poo-pooing are completely wrong. I'll paste in a big long thing I wrote for something else:

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OK, that was pretty fuckin cool. I had the plan pretty much figured out about the time we got a shot of Faith and Wood pushing a photocopier towards the camera. And Joss gives us a kind of ultimate image of empowerment for women. I wanted to see that little girl knock the ball out of the park. Anyway, a pretty inventive solution to the problem at hand, thematically beautiful when you consider the whole of the series, and especially when Juxstaposed with the themes of loneliness and alienation presented this season.

I'm glad Buffy kicked Angel to the curb, pretty good red herring with him popping in only to pop out. And I'm glad Caleb went down in the first couple minutes, simply a matter of making sure he was more deader. Also glad the potentials didn't suck cause they had mad skills. Hey, Kennedy didn't suck to bad, and knows what a brat she is.

I have to say I'm a little surprised buffy didn't die again, though I suppose that's kinda played out by now. Really sad about Anya, though. Poor Xander...

And Spike makes the ultimate sacrifice. The charm was a little Deus Ex Machina, but also pretty cool to see all those vampy-mcfattertons burned by the brilliance of Spike's soul. And cool to see Spike consumed by it as well. His death actually reminded me of the way the Judge could burn the humanity out of people. I think they're related, in that the Judge's power was the ability to hinder or suspend whatever it is in humans that prevents their own souls from burning them alive. Or maybe it was a matter of turning up the juice in that humanity to a point where the body loses containment. In Spike's case, as someone who's always been overwhelmed by his humane emotions, as a human, a stock vapire AND as a ensouled vampire, it seems very appropriate that it would be his love, his humanity and his soul that would eventually be his undoing, literally. Even though his love for Buffy remained unrequited, his death epitomises the romantic, as Marsters promised.

Whatever anyone thinks of the last couple seasons, I don't think there is any denying the brilliant way Joss and company have pulled off the finale. All the piddling complaints from the last two years aside, this episode achieves a beautiful fulfillment of the entire arc of the series. I thought the show would ultimately prove to be a tragedy, ending in the death of Buffy and most of those around her. I'm glad to say I was wrong, and now that I think about it the answer is so very obvious (as is so often the case with Whedon's work), Buffy's career as a Slayer has always bucked the system, the established rules and protocol. Her refusal to die a Slayer's death and pass the torch to the next in line is the ultimate rebellion against that institution. Or maybe sharing the power with every potential on Earth was the ultimate rebellion. I'm not sure, but those are definitely 1 & 2, though I don't know the order. Joss shows his feminist colors in this masterstroke once again. The reason there was only one in the first place was because the Shadow Men feared the Slayer. One could be subjegated, controlled. If they had given an army of women such power, there's no way they could have hoped to exert the kind of influence they envisioned.

Anyway, I can't go on too much longer tonight. I should think the literati/philosophy contingent of Buffy fans should be very pleased with the conclusion of this series. Although I suppose part of the fun was unraveling the mystery of where this all was heading and what it all meant, and the finale is pretty clear on a lot of that. I'm actually pretty curious about the direction they were planning to take with the Slayer School and Faith spinoffs they were thinking about. That's part of the problem with fiction you love so much, and characters you love so much, the closure is never good enough. I want to know if Xander ends up happy, if Willow wises up and dumps the female frat guy she's dating (as an aside, that's what I've decided I don't like about Kennedy. She's the abrasive asshole guy with the double entendres we've been conditioned by this show to hate. But I guess if you take away their penises and give 'em tits it's all cool), and what everybody's going to do with there lives. At the least we know Spike's got to come back some how, given he's a lock for Angel next year, and I'm curious how they'll pull that off.

And:

Lot's of great allusions to past episodes. Buffy's line about fat grandchildren to Angel was strait out of Amends and a phrase the First Evil used while tormenting Angel as Miss Calender saying something about "wanting to die surrounded by fat grandchildren". Also there was Giles' line about "we're all really doomed" an update of a quote from Prophecy Girl, I believe it was. And, as noted, the scene where they made plans for tomarrow was classic.

I thought the scene with Angel and Buffy, up in the graveyard was great too. His reaction to hearing Spike had a soul was reminicent of Buffy's reaction to Kendra's existance, and hinted at the impending multiplicity. On another forum someone suggested that the way Spike'll be brought back for Angel will be through that Shansu thing the prophecy talked about. I love the idea of Spike hijacking Angel's destiny. That maybe he was the Vampire with a soul important to the apocalypse WR&H wanted all along. They were messing with the wrong guy! Their man didn't get his soul until just a year ago.

Let's see, ah yes. The DnD seen was funny, and Anya face down in a deep sleep foreshadowed her fate.

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Any women out there? I image the ultimate feminist message may resonate better with you than with this group of louts.

[Angie Gallant]

The shamen chaining a girl down and making her into a Slayer without her permission is a metaphor for rape.

Buffy deciding to force every girl with Slayer potential to become a Slayer without their permission is female empowerment.

...

I am missing something there. Especially that whole "Here is where you make a choice" speech when clearly no, there was no choice making being done.

[Jason Cross]

Bah, I've never liked Buffy. I watched the two-part season finale because it ties in with Angel (a much better show), and I'm satisfied that I didn't really miss anything over the last several years. I've seen a few other episodes and never really felt they were worth it, either. I like Spike and Willow, and that's about it.

It's a shame that Firefly, the best of the Whedon shows, debuted and ran in a time slot that guaranteed its death. Though it was kinda funny how he had two of its stars each play ubervillians in Buffy and Angel.

[dwinn]

The show jumped shark years ago, but I shoot them props for referencing Trogdor the Burninator.

[Brad Grenz]

The shamen chaining a girl down and making her into a Slayer without her permission is a metaphor for rape.

Buffy deciding to force every girl with Slayer potential to become a Slayer without their permission is female empowerment.

Well, it wasn't just the power that they gave the first Slayer. They also told her she had to go out and fight the vampires, and do it all alone. That unwanted responcibility forced upon her is where the rape comes from. What Buffy did was different. She game the power to all the potentials, and they were free to do with it what they may. They weren't confronted by a crushing destiny the way those in the past always had. That was the choice Buffy talked about. She wasn't asking the potentials with her to chose between getting the power and not getting the power, she was asking them to use the power they were going to recieve to fight at her side. In this new world being a "Slayer" ceases to mean very much. By virtue of there being many with the power there is no longer the neccissary imperitive that they all fight the good fight. Some will be forces for good, some might go very bad, and some will live quiet lives.

[Toddy]

Huh? Buffy spends seven years going on about this horrible destiny that's been forced upon her, then she's supposed to be lauded for dumping her problems in everyone else's laps? A big part of the whole Slayer angst thing is that it wasn't just about cool superpowers, it was about getting up close and personal with death. That was a major theme for the whole show, yet Whedon threw it away for the sake of convenience at the very end. And there is no reason to infer that Slayers will get to ignore their powers just because they're no longer alone. There are thousands of bad guys with fangs out there. The responsibility remains.

[Toddy]

Hey, if you thought she might have survived being cut in half, that's you're problem, not the episodes. Xander doesn't look very hard because the school is collapsing and Dawn drags him away.

It's not my fault the editing was so quick that I wasn't able to tell for sure if it was Anya who'd just been sliced. The whole scene was poorly shot. And Xander not only didn't look very hard for her, he made jokes about her before her body'd had a chance to get cold. "That's my girl, always doing something stupid." What the hell was that? He almost married the girl, yet he can dismiss her death with a one-liner and then join everyone else making jokes about blowing up the mall? The entire ending was awful.


I believe it was for the element of surprise. They wanted to launch a first strike, a surprise attack. Willow couldn't have work that kind of mojo without the First noticing. By doing it only after they were in the Orcs had little time for an organized defense and the Bringer reinforcements didn't get there til it was almost over.

Again, idiotic. Buffy took weeks to kill the first Ubie earlier in the season. She knows that there are thousands and thousands of them down there. Why on Earth would she think that a surprise attack, even a surprise attack led by a couple dozen Slayers, would result in anything but a bunch of little girl corpses? This didn't fit in with the logic established earlier this season at all. What bothered me most is that this could have been fixed with just a couple of lines about how the first Ubie was the toughest Ubie and the others were weaker shock troops. How this played out, however, made zero sense.


Anya's death was like Spike's. In that final momont she conquered her irrational fears, her issue, reclaimed her lost humanity and died a heros death. They'd been building to this for a while, especially with the scene of her and Andrew in the hospital. That she was so assured of her survival and he was so sure of his impending death all but guranteed the inverse (in the world of Joss that's how things work). Andrew's imagined glorious death was the last fantasy he clinged to, Anya's sacrifice denied him that and now he finally has to come to terms with reality.

No, it was stupid and pointless. She was cut down from behind for no reason. There was nothing about conquering fears, or saving Andrew's life, or reclaiming humanity, unless you count that bunny line. The fact that a brand new addition to the cast like Wood got more camera time in the showdown and the aftermatch says it all. Either Whedon mishandled this death scene, badly, or it was a shot at Caulfield. I'm thinking the latter, as even if you defend the quick death shot as a battlefield casualty, blah, blah, you can't excuse the way that nobody mourned her passing but Andrew, and Xander actually sort of laughed about it. It seemed like Whedon telling Caulfield that she wasn't an important part of the show.


In that his master plan was for the ubervamps to overrun the world, them all dying kinda put a hamper on that. If you're asking whether the First was destroyed, no. You can't kill the "First Evil". All you can do is foil its plans and hinder its influence.

Sure, but why have the First Evil simply vanish? They build up this big battle all season long, with all these hints about the FE becoming corporeal, making it obvious that at some point the creators were planning a showdown between it and Buffy. It's one thing to do away with that, it's another to scrap the idea of a conclusion altogether. Not having any sort of confrontation between the hero and the bad guy at the end of a story arc explicitly building up to that confrontation isn't dramatically fulfilling. It's just bad writing. I don't know how you can defend that alone, and I won't even get into all the abandoned FE plot points, like the meaning of the "From beneath you it devours" line, the weakness of the Slayer line that was never explained, what the whole deal was with the appearance of Joyce to Dawn (was it the FE? if so, what was the meaning behind that "Buffy won't be there for you" line? it meant so much at the time, brought up so many questions, yet was never referred to again), how Giles survived that axe to the head, etc., etc...

[Brad Grenz]

They may not be ignored, but that's different the compulsary service to the cause. The powers are theirs, they can use them however they choose. And she didn't dump anything. She spread the power, then led the charge. She didn't abandon shit, and nothing about this diminished her past trials. Getting close to death? Sake of convenience? What are you going on about?

For seven years Buffy shouldered her burden because she didn't know of any other way. She was very young, naive and knew little about any of thise. The show was about growing up. You start young and stupid and you build from there. Seven years of experience and research and she discovered that there could be another way. That the rules she'd been confronted with (and rebelling against all along, by the way) were completely arbitrary.

Intimacy with death may have been an important theme (and I'm not sure what you are getting at anyway. Did you think Buffy should have died? That's played out), but the iconic image of the empowering of women which the show is founded on certainly takes precident over any other at the end of the day.

I think I went over much of this in my long post above.

Edit to add...


Again, idiotic. Buffy took weeks to kill the first Ubie earlier in the season. She knows that there are thousands and thousands of them down there. Why on Earth would she think that a surprise attack, even a surprise attack led by a couple dozen Slayers, would result in anything but a bunch of little girl corpses? This didn't fit in with the logic established earlier this season at all. What bothered me most is that this could have been fixed with just a couple of lines about how the first Ubie was the toughest Ubie and the others were weaker shock troops. How this played out, however, made zero sense.

It made more sense then waiting for the First to bring the fight to them. It was basically going to come down to a hopeless battle either way, might as well fight on your terms, at a time and place of your choosing. Or maybe you would have preferred a few more episodes of the whole gang sitting around waiting for something to happen?


No, it was stupid and pointless. She was cut down from behind for no reason. There was nothing about conquering fears, or saving Andrew's life, or reclaiming humanity, unless you count that bunny line. The fact that a brand new addition to the cast like Wood got more camera time in the showdown and the aftermatch says it all. Either Whedon mishandled this death scene, badly, or it was a shot at Caulfield. I'm thinking the latter, as even if you defend the quick death shot as a battlefield casualty, blah, blah, you can't excuse the way that nobody mourned her passing but Andrew, and Xander actually sort of laughed about it. It seemed like Whedon telling Caulfield that she wasn't an important part of the show.

If you want to ignore her arc that's a problem with you. Remember, she's just run from a previous apocalypse. She wasn't even dating Xander anymore, but this time she stayed, she fought and she died. For humans, something she hated and tormented for a thousand years. I'd call that some impressive growth, and less than pointless. Your objections seem to mostly be over the manner, and editing of her death. Perhaps they should have made her ram an F-15 into the mothership instead? To me, the manner and portrayal of her death speaks to the fleeting brutality of life. She's evicerated men with a single thought. And she was bisected in a single stroke. As for Xander's reaction, one, if she didn't come when her called, or cried out, and if he didn't see her immediately, he's sure to have known she was already dead, or could not be saved. His joking with Xander, well, he's always used his sense of humor to cope with greif. And I think he knows Andrew just told him what he needed to hear.


Sure, but why have the First Evil simply vanish? They build up this big battle all season long, with all these hints about the FE becoming corporeal, making it obvious that at some point the creators were planning a showdown between it and Buffy. It's one thing to do away with that, it's another to scrap the idea of a conclusion altogether. Not having any sort of confrontation between the hero and the bad guy at the end of a story arc explicitly building up to that confrontation isn't dramatically fulfilling. It's just bad writing. I don't know how you can defend that alone, and I won't even get into all the abandoned FE plot points, like the meaning of the "From beneath you it devours" line, the weakness of the Slayer line that was never explained, what the whole deal was with the appearance of Joyce to Dawn (was it the FE? if so, what was the meaning behind that "Buffy won't be there for you" line? it meant so much at the time, brought up so many questions, yet was never referred to again), how Giles survived that axe to the head, etc., etc...

As the First mentioned, that in order to become corporeal it would have already conquered the world, and the battle with Buffy an co would have been long over. I'm sorry the massive battle with the overwhelming horde didn't pop enough for you. Sorry it wasn't a big enough bang. The confrontation with the First Evil came when Buffy, Spike, etc, obliterated the Firsts Agents. I believe we should take note of the diametrically opposed tactics of the First, hands off, one will acting through a huge number of powerful agents, and the Watchers, the whole world dependant on one powerful warrior.

But most of these complaints don't seem to be able the finale, but previous episodes in the season. I'm not going to sit here and defend all of S7 to you. It would seem that Joyce was in fact the FE, the line was meant to create a rift of suspicion between Buffy and Dawn. With the from beneath you it devours thing, I don't know. Use your imagination. If only Ms Pac Man had come out of the Hellmouth and started munching up every dot in sight, we wouldn't be having this conversation! I should point out the destruction wrought by Spike created a huge sink hole that swallowed all of Sunnydale.

[Guido Jones]

The last episode was dissapponting - all the different plot threads were basically left unanswered.

The first can only show up as dead people. FE shows up as Buffy, therefore Buffy came back wrong. Apparnetly that's not a big deal to either Buffy or anything else.

What exactly was the weakness in the slayer line by bringing Buffy back? They didn't show *anything* with that after Anya and Giles went to that demon, and they never told anyone about it. As far as I could tell, they could have done everything whether Buffy had been brought back or not.

The other potential slayers around the globe - shouldn't they be dead now? I mean the first was wiping them out, yet there's a bunch of them going to school, playing soft ball, lounging around? WTF is this shit? All of them were supposed to be in sunnydale or dead.

The Angel stuff was fine - it hasn't been how he's been written in Angel recently, so it was kind of jarring going from Angel of Season 4 of his own show (Who just lost his Son forever and the current woman he loves Cordie) to Angel of Season 7 of Buffy (who was acting like he did back in season 1 - 3 of Buffy). Was just wierd - that's now how he is anymore.

Devours From Beneath - Brad, usually writers don't make a huge deal out of something and then just have the audience "use their imigination." It's poor story telling - I could think up 10 different ways to tie it up right now and giving that thread closure.

The FE talking about corporeal - how was that gonna come about? I'm assuming she was gonna take over buffy, that was the weakness in the slayer line, and that from there it could rule the world. But apparently that was too hard to tie up, and it's easier to just have a "KICKASS END BATTLE WITH UBER VAMPS!" then actually work on the plot thread that you've spent the entire season creating. The whole season was about the first being corporeal, yet it wasn't dealt with at all in the last episode. WTF?

It's like the last episode was a big non-sequiter cap to the season.

I have a bad feeling there's gonna be a crossover at the beginning of Angel Season 5 and tie up the FE stuff and bring Spike back, but still very poor storytelling.

[Case]

Huh? Buffy spends seven years going on about this horrible destiny that's been forced upon her, then she's supposed to be lauded for dumping her problems in everyone else's laps? A big part of the whole Slayer angst thing is that it wasn't just about cool superpowers, it was about getting up close and personal with death. That was a major theme for the whole show, yet Whedon threw it away for the sake of convenience at the very end. And there is no reason to infer that Slayers will get to ignore their powers just because they're no longer alone. There are thousands of bad guys with fangs out there. The responsibility remains.

Willow released the power that already existed in every girl, rather than having a patriarchal society allow only one to exist. After all, with thousands of powerful women running around, the male power structure will likely be worried.

I'll leave it up to you to decide whether I'm serious or not.

But I did like the Trogdor the Burninator reference, too.

[Toddy]

Brad, you want to believe that the finale made sense, go nuts. I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. The plot holes and horrible execution are obvious to anyone who isn't fanwanking. This season was a mess, thanks to the uncertainty about renewal and then the halfhearted spinoff thing. Good start, but everything fell to pieces after the high point of Conversations With Dead People.

[Skies]

Besides all the negative "critical analysis" going on, I thoroughly enjoyed the series finale. It closed a great story and a show that will be a landmark in television. I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Grenz's assessment.

Buffy was a series that created over arching stories in much the same way a good novel does. Let's face it, Lord of the Rings is a great read but some chapters are a little high on the yawn meter. West Wing, CSI and such, are traditional episodic TV. You can watch any episode, in any order and not be lost. Buffy went against the norm, which I guess what the whole series was about.

Yes there were some plot holes but I say "big deal':P . I got tremendous emotional satisfaction when all was said and done. I even had a little tear on my cheek. :cry:

[Case]

Buffy was a series that created over arching stories in much the same way a good novel does. Let's face it, Lord of the Rings is a great read but some chapters are a little high on the yawn meter. West Wing, CSI and such, are traditional episodic TV. You can watch any episode, in any order and not be lost. Buffy went against the norm, which I guess what the whole series was about.

Yes there were some plot holes but I say "big deal':P . I got tremendous emotional satisfaction when all was said and done. I even had a little tear on my cheek. :cry:

I liked Buffy a lot. But it wasn't the first to create long story arcs. There was this little show called Babylon 5... and for all I know, it wasn't the first, either.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Buffy was a series that created over arching stories in much the same way a good novel does. Let's face it, Lord of the Rings is a great read but some chapters are a little high on the yawn meter. West Wing, CSI and such, are traditional episodic TV. You can watch any episode, in any order and not be lost. Buffy went against the norm, which I guess what the whole series was about.

I walked into Buffy cold midway through last season and wasn't completely lost. We're not talking soap operas here - well maybe we are. I can watch reruns from Season 2 and Season 4 on local networks to catch what I've missed and never go "Huh?." General Hospital, on the other hand, takes weeks of watching to get caught up again.

Yes, Buffy has long plot arcs but they not crucial in each and every episode. Like B5, which Case cited, many of the episodes have only tangetial reference to the plot unless they were building up to something big in a season finale. A lot are interchangeable, even.

West Wing has some element of a plot arc, though its generally very subterranean. And I don't think Sorkin meant for John Goodman to become President.

Troy

[Ben Sones]

I think Farscape did more of the plot arc thing than either Buffy or B5. If you didn't follow Farscape regularly, you could easily get completely lost and have no idea what was going on.

[Case]

I think Farscape did more of the plot arc thing than either Buffy or B5. If you didn't follow Farscape regularly, you could easily get completely lost and have no idea what was going on.

Yeah, B5 didn't get that way until season 4. But then it did it in spades.

[Robert Sharp]

What difference does it make who did story arcs in television first, or even better? Skies's point was just that Buffy had a story arc and that sometimes made some episodes less exciting than others. That's true. Babylong 5 (I left the typo because it seems funny to me for some reason) had that problem too. I don't know that it justifies anything because, if we keep the comparison with LotR, Tolkien didn't have problems wrapping things up in the end. His world seems complete to me.

I thought the last episode was good and bad. I liked Spike's death and the fact that he stuck with Buffy to the end (though it made the end of the previous episode pretty pointless). I liked the relationship between Wood and Faith...I think he figured her out in a way no one else ever really did. I like the way people died (though I think more should have in such a battle. I think killing Xander would have been compelling).

OTOH, I agree that the Ubervamps were WAY too easy to kill for brand new slayers. Buffy had a hard time with one. I understand why she can kill them fairly easily. She had a new weapon, and she had newfound confidence, both from killing one already and from Spike and the situation at hand. But the newbies shouldn't have done so well, and the humans not at all. Were the swords all blessed in some way? I might have missed that, but I thought the ubervamps were very hard to kill. And why did they dust from swords? How did knocking down a school support cause the whole town to be swallowed up? Was the Hellmouth that big? It didn't look that big. Where were the other demons, like the one fought at the end of season One, and again the the Zeppo? There were lots of questions like that that came to mind, and I did think a lot of issues were left hanging, as pointed out above.

So I think it had good and bad qualities. Was it the ideal ending to the show? Probably not. I thought the end of season 5 was better (I cried when Buffy sacrificed herself for Dawn). But the ending had its moments. I think it would have been better as a two hour finale though.

[Mike Cathcart]

I thought the last episode was good and bad. I liked Spike's death and the fact that he stuck with Buffy to the end (though it made the end of the previous episode pretty pointless).

No way, it made it totally pointy. Fess up, weren't you expecting a whole 'jealous Spike' thing to kick in at a crucial moment and mess things up? They're past that. After seven years these people finally got their shit together and just put aside the high school theatrics. In any previous season it would have been different.

[Case]

What difference does it make who did story arcs in television first, or even better? Skies's point was just that Buffy had a story arc and that sometimes made some episodes less exciting than others. That's true. Babylong 5 (I left the typo because it seems funny to me for some reason) had that problem too. I don't know that it justifies anything because, if we keep the comparison with LotR, Tolkien didn't have problems wrapping things up in the end. His world seems complete to me.

I thought the last episode was good and bad. I liked Spike's death and the fact that he stuck with Buffy to the end (though it made the end of the previous episode pretty pointless). I liked the relationship between Wood and Faith...I think he figured her out in a way no one else ever really did. I like the way people died (though I think more should have in such a battle. I think killing Xander would have been compelling).



The problem is that Buffy has been nearly all story arc the last two seasons. Previous seasons had non-arc stories that were funny, or scary, or poignant, and dug into the characters, their foibles, strengths and changes. Or they were just Kolchak-style "monster of the week". It broke up the arc, and let the writers have a little fun, too. I missed that in the past couple of seasons.

[Brad Grenz]

Brad, you want to believe that the finale made sense, go nuts. I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. The plot holes and horrible execution are obvious to anyone who isn't fanwanking. This season was a mess, thanks to the uncertainty about renewal and then the halfhearted spinoff thing. Good start, but everything fell to pieces after the high point of Conversations With Dead People.

Christ, you want to call what I'm doing fanwanking, fine, but what you're doing is hatewanking. You decided you were going to hate the episode, so you do. It's pretty clear from your comments that' there's no way you would have been satisfied. You're so wrapped up in your greivances with the show you refuse to acknowledge anything good. Your complaints require ignoring the possible, positive alternative interpretations of the text. You're being absolutely ridiculous. If you want to argue with me, show me why my interpretations are wrong, and no, you can't just dismiss them because you don't like something, or it didn't meet your expectations in some fashion. And for the love of God, don't just throw crap you precieve as plot holes in my face. Why are my arguments and interpretations wrong.

I mean Jesus, you guys. You complian that some payoff was disproportionate to the build up, or that something was too subtle. I, for one, like subtlety, you'd prefer an Unbreakable style text wrap-up of things at the end? Of course not, you'd be bitching about how you don't need to be beaten over the head with a two-by-four to get the point. So stop compaining about how you might actually have to think about the episode to appreciate it.


The problem is that Buffy has been nearly all story arc the last two seasons. Previous seasons had non-arc stories that were funny, or scary, or poignant, and dug into the characters, their foibles, strengths and changes. Or they were just Kolchak-style "monster of the week". It broke up the arc, and let the writers have a little fun, too. I missed that in the past couple of seasons.

True enough. In seasons 2 and 3 the big bad stuff didn't really hit the map until halfway through the year.

[Guido Jones]

Brad I don't see how they wrapped anything up in this finale. I went in expecting a good episode and coming out dissappointed because it just didn't answer *any* of the questions that were brought up during the season. It seemed like the last episode was a half hearted effort to just get the season over so they could move on to other things.

[Robert Sharp]

What difference does it make who did story arcs in television first, or even better? Skies's point was just that Buffy had a story arc and that sometimes made some episodes less exciting than others. That's true. Babylong 5 (I left the typo because it seems funny to me for some reason) had that problem too. I don't know that it justifies anything because, if we keep the comparison with LotR, Tolkien didn't have problems wrapping things up in the end. His world seems complete to me.

I thought the last episode was good and bad. I liked Spike's death and the fact that he stuck with Buffy to the end (though it made the end of the previous episode pretty pointless). I liked the relationship between Wood and Faith...I think he figured her out in a way no one else ever really did. I like the way people died (though I think more should have in such a battle. I think killing Xander would have been compelling).



The problem is that Buffy has been nearly all story arc the last two seasons. Previous seasons had non-arc stories that were funny, or scary, or poignant, and dug into the characters, their foibles, strengths and changes. Or they were just Kolchak-style "monster of the week". It broke up the arc, and let the writers have a little fun, too. I missed that in the past couple of seasons.

I'd agree with that. I missed those elements myself. And I think you are right that it was really only the last two seasons that completely abandoned the idea of mostly self-contained episodes. Too bad too because those were usually the best ones.

[Robert Sharp]

I thought the last episode was good and bad. I liked Spike's death and the fact that he stuck with Buffy to the end (though it made the end of the previous episode pretty pointless).

No way, it made it totally pointy. Fess up, weren't you expecting a whole 'jealous Spike' thing to kick in at a crucial moment and mess things up? They're past that. After seven years these people finally got their shit together and just put aside the high school theatrics. In any previous season it would have been different.

Yep. I got that. I just thought it could have been done better. I thought the FE would try to use it in the final fight and THEN Spike could have said no way. Even when he "confronted" Buffy about Angel, it didn't take much to get him over it. And I agree that it showed maturity. In fact, that's what I mean by saying I am glad he stuck with Buffy at the end. But the previous episode made it LOOK like Spike was really mad about Angel, and it turned out to be very little in the end. I guess I felt toyed with by the writers. I was annoyed that Spike would be affected at all, and then in the finale I found out there was no reason for me to be annoyed.

[Mike Cathcart]

So you were annoyed that you were annoyed? :)

Still, it's understandable, I mean that was three seconds after he saw it happen, of course he was mad at the time. I see what you're saying about the FE trying to temp him at a crucial moment, but that would have required Spike actually considering the idea on some level. He's way past that now, it wouldn't have made sense.

Anyway, I liked this episode. Not the best or anything, but they did what they could with the constraints that they had. An OK end to a great show. I guess I'm just not all that disappointed because lately Angel's been better and that's not going anywhere, so I don't feel like it's really "over" yet.