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View Full Version : FFXI - interested? Or "Do MMOG reflect society?"


Kitsune
05-17-2003, 09:26 AM
Well, it looks like Square is definitely dedicated to bringing FFXI to the masses in the rest of the world now, so by the end of the year (for PCs) and early next year (for PS2) you'll have a chance to play it.

I played FFXI last year for a little while, because one of my friends is an incredible Square whore who buys every little thing they put out and he let me have an account. (Each character costs money, is this how they usually do things?) I didn't much like it. Square has always forged their own path with FF, but what was on display seemed too much like every other MMORPG I had heard, it was a bit disappointing not to see Square do something more pioneering or interesting. (I'm not terribly interested in an online games except Biohazard Online.) So maybe its just not my thing and I was doomed from the start not to like it. There were some good points, I had a grand old making furniture and decorating my mog house, pretending to play house with girls like I did as a kid. And riding across the gorgeous landscapes on Chocobo's trying to evade Marlboro's and Bombs was a good deal of fun, as were the incredibly ornate ships and airships. I liked travelling and seeing new place. I also enjoyed tinkering with crystals, which I mostly gave to my friend to help him. But not enough to buy the game myself or keep playing it.

Well, I went online again recently with my old character (my friend kept him up when he felt like it, as I gave the guy over to him when I wasn't interested). And now I have to say I'm even disappointed, despite the expansion pack making things a bit more exciting and upping the amount of interesting design in the game: Japanese players have ruined a great idea, if you ask me. When I first played FFXI last year, it didn't seem like I was in Japan -- I'll give Square the benefit of the doubt, it really did seem like an immersive fantasy world. Other than the fact that, for instance, you could tell you weren't talking or dealing with Americans, because of the familiar protocol going on with communication, it wasn't terribly transparent.

Now though, its a bit icky. Ew, even. I'm not sure whether I just ran into the problem people and situations, or whether its huge, prevalent and widespread, but let's just say, the behavior is lacking. FFXI gives you the ability to make several characters that look strikingly familiar to popular idols in Japan. Now whenever I see one of these look-alikes, the in-joke seems to be go up and shout the lyrics of the idol-in-question's song in an obnoxious way and then run away before they can catch you. Similarly, I got an reaction from character, who asked, "You actually trust me?" There's no real competitive aspects to FFXI, its mostly cooperative, so I wondered what that was about. I soon found out, that when Koreans started playing, almost immediately people began to suspect they were in it more for the rankings than the fun of it all and started calling them the Hive Mind. So Koreans changed their identities so you apparently you can't tell they are Koreans anymore. Except, now there's list of traits everyone knows that identifies that them as "Korean" even if they aren't, and "what to do if you see one." To be fair -- it is a bit annoying, I suspect you're all familiar with how Japan's multiplayer scene is heavily arcade centered, while Korea's is heavily online. I think both sides are can be irritatingly competitve, but since FFXI is online, some annoying Koreans do have the tendency to come online and show how much they can "own" Japanese players by interrupting carefully planned party based combat and snagging experience for themselves.

While its true that this typical behavior of our culture makes sure the bad players do get appropriately ostracized -- the Hikikomori and the Right Wing players, I have to say are fiendishly ignored and tormented and I have to give a high five to the way Japanese players have collectively snubbed those obscene, disgusting jackasses. Then again, there wouldn't BE Hikikomori in real life, if Japanese didn't act the way they do and if we changed our society for the better.

Bottom online: you can't go anywhere without a reminder that you are in Japan, playing with Japanese players, while last year, it truly seemed like an interesting world with rules separate from Japan's. One player I talked to about this (obviously no one's going to admit it) who was pretty frank said there's nothing that can be done about it, its the way of the world. That, its similar to if Japanese moved to a different island or country with completely blank slate -- they'd probably still be Japanese.

Not that I hate my own race, I know I myself have many of the same tendencies -- and realistically, not all of them are as bad as they are cracked up to be that some say. But it would have been nice to see ourselves be more friendly and less stubborn and suspicious online, as another step to increasing comfortability with other ways of life. Alas, it does not seem like it was meant to be. At the very least, the Square employees still maintain this ideal -- the quests and stories they think up to give to players, continue to be imaginative and ignore all these petty things that go on.

I suspect that even though the game is set to translate whatever you say into different languages, if any of you pick it up, you're going to instantly recognize a Japanese player from all the stereotypes you've heard or experiences you've had. Oh well, we've never been all that good at diplomacy. ;)

-Kitsune

mtkafka
05-17-2003, 04:17 PM
wow, its like race wars... but for real. or at least based on what you say. Frankly its kind of weird how the Korean gamers are heavily pc oriented and the Japanese arcade/console... my guess is subconsciously the Koreans WANT to be noticed differently from the Japanese... yes BIG RACIST GENERALIZATION!

anyway, I'm not interested in FFXI... sounds like EQ meets Final Fantasy... I'd rather have a more in-depth Phantasy Star Online meets Diablo but playable offline and online, just more in depth... bah... maybe a Dark Cloudish offline/online game.. but then again that would defeat the purpose of mmrpg (or money making at its best?!?).

etc

Ben
05-18-2003, 01:45 AM
What the hell are Hikikomori and Right Wing? Jeez, the in game cliques even have ridiculous JRPG faction names.

Kitsune
05-18-2003, 08:14 AM
Um, actually are ridiculous Japanese real life names for groups of people. ;)

Hikikomori are people who retreat from society, they usually refuse to come out of their homes (or very rarely do, trying to live without going outside). They don't talk to people and refuse to "normal" things. That wouldn't be entirely so bad, so much as it is pathetic, if it weren't for the fact that they often spread their ideas and preach really venomous, bizarre, cruel things to people. They find susceptible people on the internet and try to convince them to give up society and become like them. Not all of them bother people, so they're not all bad I suppose, but many of them have been known to do hideously cruel things to people -- beat old ladies, torture people, even kill, in the name of rebellion against society. Its a very new and strange social problem for Japan.

Right Wingers are on the otherhand, an old, old and very silly "problem." They're relatively normal people except for one thing: they can't accept that we lost the war. They go around in these vans with the national flag, playing the old national anthem, shouting at the top of their lungs that the emperor is still a god and lifelong service to the emperor and shouldn't we begin anew the "empire?" They're very funny to watch, but what isn't so funny is of course their ideas and prejudices. They have been known to harass foreigners and Koreans and other people. So they're pretty much universally reviled since 99% of Japanese want nothing to do with that past, now abhor such ideas, and would like them to please go away. Think of them as a more harmless KKK. You can ALWAYS TELL who they are because of what they were, so its bleedingly obvious that somebody is a Right Winger in FFXI when you see what kind of outfit or armor they chose and how much they go around shouting "If you can fight monsters all day, you can fight for the emperor!"

Now, like I said, maybe the Hikikomori need some compassion and help so that we don't further push them away, but considering how dangerous they can be...don't you think these two real life groups deserve to be ignored and shunned?

One day, the Right Wingers are going to die out completely, because they seriously don't impress anyone but their self-absorbed selves, but the Hikikomori problem is only getting bigger and bigger.

-Kitsune

Luke M
05-18-2003, 11:07 PM
Hikikomori are people who retreat from society, they usually refuse to come out of their homes (or very rarely do, trying to live without going outside). They don't talk to people and refuse to "normal" things. That wouldn't be entirely so bad, so much as it is pathetic, if it weren't for the fact that they often spread their ideas and preach really venomous, bizarre, cruel things to people. They find susceptible people on the internet and try to convince them to give up society and become like them. Not all of them bother people, so they're not all bad I suppose, but many of them have been known to do hideously cruel things to people -- beat old ladies, torture people, even kill, in the name of rebellion against society. Its a very new and strange social problem for Japan.


That's very interesting, and also sad. What caused this group to form?

Brad Grenz
05-19-2003, 01:52 AM
videogames

Kalle
05-19-2003, 03:56 AM
Sadly, I doubt the rightwingers will die out anytime soon. The past always looks far more glorious when everyone who remembered it's horrors has passed away.

deanco
05-19-2003, 04:49 AM
videogames

...and Cheetos.

Heh, the Hikikomori are my vision (not a bright one, I can assure you) of the future. The brave will deliver groceries and packages, and the rest will stay hooked up to their TiVo 7 VEM's (Virtual Existence Machines). That might make a good backstory for a HL-type shooter, come to think of it. You're a delivery boy who has to save the world, everyone else is too chicken to go out of their homes. At any rate it would explain why there are never any other people besides bad guys in the streets.

DeanCo--

Sam Jones
05-19-2003, 05:29 AM
That might make a good backstory for a HL-type shooter, come to think of it. You're a delivery boy who has to save the world, everyone else is too chicken to go out of their homes.

That is Snow Crash.

mtkafka
05-19-2003, 06:10 AM
Why do the Japanese even categorize this himmorwahtever thing? Its just another name for 'loner' or 'hermitl'. Though coming from a conforming society like Japan... maybe its extreme, and especially since they are teens (shouldnt they be going out looking for chicks or just hanging out!?). It is kind of scary reading the numbers I saw on google of over a million japanese teens 'locking' themselves in there rooms playing games or just vegging. Maybe they should get some old time religion or something... tao something...or there parents are too wimpy...

etc

Jack
05-19-2003, 09:31 AM
I have nothing to add to this, but I want to thank Kitsune for the post. I know nothing about Japanese culture (other than their hatred of Koreans).

Fascinating information.

Do you think the anonymity of online gaming will increase the amount of hatred among the Koreans and Japanese now that there's a forum in which for them to act out? (This closely parallels the use of hoods among the KKK, doesn't it? Virtual hoods. I'd laugh it weren't sad.) If this is the case, how far are we from a White-supremest sponsered online game? Now that's a terrible thought....

Dave Long
05-19-2003, 09:35 AM
I'm mildly interested in FFXI, though I think the game will be different over here from a player standpoint.

I'm far more interested in the next single player FF title though. With the talent behind Final Fantasy XII, it's probably one of my most anticipated games, and we've seen next to nothing on it so far. But with that team...hoo boy...can't wait.

--Dave

zabuni
05-19-2003, 09:45 AM
I shall now give the standard line that has been passed from player to player on every MMORPG every known, and that describes the problem:

"People are broken."

The qualities you describe, racism, social cliques, are not that specific to any one race or nation. The spices may differ, but its the same dish underneath. Uber guilds rule EQ and its ilk. Hikikomori is to Japan as Catass* is to US. They may not take nearly as much pride in their status, but that do have pride in how powerful they are in the game. One thing that is worse about the catass is that they are not ostracized, as they have access to the greatest amounts of treasure and status. A recent example is Shadowbane, where some guilds require a set amount of gold and treasure per time period, in order to remain in the group. This requires you to play a certain amount of time in order to remain in the game.

I don't see as many things that designate someone as "USA", then again, Americans usually remain blissfully unaware of other cultures until they get smacked in the face with them. :wink: I've seen people shout racial epiteths on various games, and they pretty much get shunned. I also think that if you talked to some Battle.net players, you would also an earful about Korean players. KeKeKeKe indeed.

*Catass comes from a Washington Post article about MMORPG addiction. The person in question was a shut-in, and his house smelled of cat urine. Thus, catass.

Luke M
05-19-2003, 11:28 AM
That might make a good backstory for a HL-type shooter, come to think of it. You're a delivery boy who has to save the world, everyone else is too chicken to go out of their homes.

That is Snow Crash.

Do I get a katana and a cool name?

JosieNutter
06-04-2003, 11:11 AM
I'm a bit of a Square groupie myself... I know that when it comes out here, I will buy it and play it. For how long though? That depends on how good it is.

Brian Koontz
06-04-2003, 11:26 PM
In every online game I've played with a substantial number of Koreans, they are known for their tendency to team up (regardless of to what extent the gameplay supports it). You'd almost think they were treating the game as some form of nation versus nation war (or Korea versus the World war).

Part of this is language (its obviously easier to be a member of a group where you can easily communicate) but no other nationality has this distinction.

Of course, no other nationality (besides Americans) plays Online games in the sheer numbers that Koreans do, but I still think there are other elements in play.

Its too bad, really... I'd say being nationalistic is far worse than being racist or sexist.

MattKeil
06-05-2003, 01:08 AM
That might make a good backstory for a HL-type shooter, come to think of it. You're a delivery boy who has to save the world, everyone else is too chicken to go out of their homes.

That is Snow Crash.

Do I get a katana and a cool name?

No, your name will be Hiro Protagonist.

Good book, but that name and the resounding "thud" of an ending really taint it.

~MJK

solomani
06-05-2003, 10:19 PM
I live and work in Tokyo in a big newspaper building where most of these nationlist (right wing) guys protest atleast once a week. I like to amuse myself when they actually have the balls to get out of their busses by standing around, listening intently to their anti-foreigner garbage then shouting "long live the Emperor". They have no idea how to deal with that.

Luke M
06-06-2003, 10:45 AM
That might make a good backstory for a HL-type shooter, come to think of it. You're a delivery boy who has to save the world, everyone else is too chicken to go out of their homes.

That is Snow Crash.

Do I get a katana and a cool name?

No, your name will be Hiro Protagonist.

Good book, but that name and the resounding "thud" of an ending really taint it.

~MJK

I use that name for _all_ of my RPG characters :)

What's wrong with the ending to Snow Crash? It's a big, detailed sci-fi action movie in novel form...not to be read for the satisfaction of its plot.