PC Gamer, Vede, and Penny Arcade: We love you! But I hate you

[RepoMan]

From Scott Kurtz's blog (http://www.pvponline.com/) this morning (be gentle, his server's dyspeptic):
So here’s what happened: PC Gamer invited Penny-Arcade to the prom and then when Penny-Arcade arrived, PC Gamer’s drunk jock asshole friend accidentally let it slip that PC Gamer only invited them on a dare or a bet. And that drunk jock asshole friend is PC gamer magazine editor-in-chief Greg Vederman....

Imagine how that must feel, having been a gamer all your life. To make the cover of PC Gamer x5. Imagine telling all your friends and family to pick up the issue. Imagine going to the grocery store to see it on the shelf.

Now imagine the let down when you read the letter from the editor and he’s comparing you to Garfield. Not in a good way. And then imagine how your heart would drop into your stomach when you read the editor HOPES that this issues sells poorly so he can finally have ammunition to prove to his friend that Penny-Arcade isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

That’s not just a slap in the face. That’s not just an uncalled for blindside slap to the face. That’s some grade-A horseshit.

In the history of gaming magazines, how many times has the letter from the editor taken a dump on their cover story? Has it EVER happened? I noticed that next month’s cover story is about Starcraft 2. What are the odds the The Vede is going to piss all over Blizzard? Considering how much Blizzard spends a year on advertising in his magazine, probably not a big chance.
I must admit, it seemed pretty funky to me too.

Discuss.

[DanielElliot]

That's pretty weird, but I don't think Penny Arcade will mind too much. Good, no GREAT, ammo for their newspost, and it won't affect sales of their game in the least. The only people who were going to play it were PA fans anyway, and nothing is going to sway them either way.

[Shadari]

The only people who were going to play it were PA fans anyway, and nothing is going to sway them either way.
Anecdotally speaking, I don't think that's true because I'm not really a big PA fan (I like PA, but don't read the site/comics very much) but PC Gamer's preview has stoked my interest in the PA game quite a bit.

[Patrick]

Eh. I took it more as... I Don't get it (PA) But I'm Weird so since I don't like the comic, I won't like the game. Which means it will probably be great.

[mouselock]

Err.. did I read the same editorial that he did?

I see him saying P-A is sometimes funny and sometimes not, and I see him taking potshots at the "cult of P-A" that mandates that everything they do is gold and cannot go wrong. I'm with him there. Sometimes P-A is funny. Often I can see how someone who's younger and really into whatever's hip and cool could be convinced it's funny, even when it's just, well, stupid.

I just don't get where Kurtz is coming from, at all. Vede didn't seem to shit all over P-A to me. The only think he took some shots at was the cultish following that states that "P-A" == good. I think I'm all right with the editors of gaming magazines not feeling inclined to blindly follow the masses no matter what.

[Alan Dunkin]

For me personally I think the editorial has a mix of all kinds of stuff--complaints, groupthink, Garfield, fanboys, etc.--some of which may or may not be on the ball (PA fanboyism) an others really depend on your point of view (is Garfield really that bad? I never thought so).

I dislike fanboyism immensely--the kind of rampant "groupthink" that Vederman derides for me stretches back to the dittohead days when Limbaugh was in his prime ('92 or thereabouts). His buddy he describes pretty much as being "one of them" (my words), gushing over every PA strip and marveling at the humor, then reading their blog and generally agreeing with everything they say. Okay so maybe Vederman's buddy isn't quite like that, but there are quite a few that are.

Structurally I don't think PA and Garfield are alike at all; quite a few guys here say PA is really a 2-panel comic since you can often remove the middle panel and still get most if not all of the joke. Garfield I don't think is like that, but of course Jim Davis is long dead and I haven't read it consistently since the 80s.

The way Vederman wrote the end of the column, I don't think he really thinks that he hopes the issue sells bad and the game fails, it's just, in the end, a joke. If he did mean it, that'd be completely ridiculous and he should be out on his ass as an EIC faster than the speed of light.

While the PA fan base may be fanatics, in a way I think they're a good kind of fanatic. You meet a lot of these guys at PAX, and anyone who does any kind of work at PAX will tell you its probably the best convention in the entire year's worth of trade and consumer shows. Why? Because you talk to a lot of gamers, there's always something fun and cool going on, and the Enforcers (volunteer staff) are frankly awesome and the most helpful show staff I've ever encountered. Sure there's a lot of underage people and obvious, um, closeted people, but it's still pretty cool, and that's (I believe) an extension of the PA philosophy/ideal.

--- Alan

[Angrycoder]

jesus christ, what a cock

[Shadari]

Uhoh, Angrycoder is angry again. :(

[Ranulf]

Wow, the "Vede" sure can write teh funnay... I don't expect high discourse in a gaming magazine but "I fucked his mom last night" jokes?

[Angrycoder]

time for me to start misspelling loose

[RepoMan]

What I'm wondering is who Angrycoder is talking about?

Kurtz?

Vede?

Himself? Maybe he's posting while looking down in the bathroom.

[Glycerine]

Greg Vederman is an idiotic assclown who's always thought he was more funny than he actually is. I've known this since before I stopped subscribing to that craptastic magazine years ago. The fact that they made him "Editor-in-Chief" only assures me that nothing has changed and it's still just as much ass as it was back then, probably much worse. They kept sending me the damn thing for almost 2 years after my subscription was supposed to run out. Eventually they got smart and the new issues stopped coming, which did kind of suck because since they were so chock full of ads they made really good fly-swatters.

Maybe "The Vede" needs to take a long look in the mirror and realize that he himself is more "lasagna" than Garfield and Penny Arcade put together.

glyc

[KristianV]

Completely harmless editorial on the culture of franchising, fandom and fucking your friend's mother.

Kurtz, after all these years, still can't stand the jocks.

[LesJarvis]

Garfield I don't think is like that, but of course Jim Davis is long dead and I haven't read it consistently since the 80s.

This is a small, completely tangential point, but Jim Davis is still alive and creating new strips as far as I know. I think you've got him confused with Charles Schulz, creator of Peanuts, who passed away in 2000.

[RightWrong]

Just to mess with the Vede's history; I'm definitely younger than him and I still bought the Garfields and thought they were the best as a kid... but only up until about book 9 or so. It was a jump the shark kind of moment, because by then the cast narrowed down from 5 or so to just Garfield and Jon, Davis started drawing fewer and fewer backgrounds, and Garfield looked less and less like a Cat and more like a human.

As far as the editorial, it was a dicky thing to do considering they're publishing five covers of their magazine based on Penny Arcade. I'm just not sure if he's flipping the readers off or Penny Arcade.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

This is a small, completely tangential point, but Jim Davis is still alive and creating new strips as far as I know. I think you've got him confused with Charles Schulz, creator of Peanuts, who passed away in 2000.

Though the idea of a zombie Jim Davis writing the comic would explain a hell of a lot.

Troy

[Balasarius]

Gabe mentioned this in his front-page post a few weeks ago when the issue first game out.

Dan apparently liked what he saw because the resulting article is actually really positive.

On the other hand, the editor makes it clear in his column that he hates Penny Arcade, but not so much that he won't use us to sell his magazine.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2007/05/25

I agree it was a fairly class-less thing to do.

[Gary Whitta]

Greg Vederman is an idiotic assclown who's always thought he was more funny than he actually is. I've known this since before I stopped subscribing to that craptastic magazine years ago. The fact that they made him editor only assures me that nothing has changed and it's still just as much ass as it was back then. They kept sending me the damn thing for almost 2 years after my subscription was supposed to run out. Eventually they got smart and the new issues stopped coming, which did kind of suck because since they were so chock full of ads they made really good fly-swatters.

Maybe "The Vede" needs to take a long look in the mirror and realize that he himself is more "lasagna" than Garfield and Penny Arcade put together.

glyc
Jesus Christ. As many times as I may have considered Vede to be an "idiotic assclown" during the years that I shared a house with him, he isn't and has never been one in regards to his job. He cares deeply about the magazine and about PC gaming.

We actually discussed this issue on the last PCG podcast in which Vede gave what I thought was a very reasoned explanation of why he wrote what he wrote, and how he felt it had been misconstrued by many. It was clear to me that Greg is baffled and a bit upset about the way that editorial was received. I wound up agreeing with him, but that section got cut because he was concerned that talking about it more might just fan the flames, but on reflection it would probably have helped clear the air.

At the very worst this was an attempt at humor that backfired, Vede maybe could have made his point more clearly but then certain elements of the audience took that and ran the rest of the way with it, way past what was intended. It amazes me that after getting FIVE different covers and a glowing feature story inside, what everyone's picked up on are a few comments in an editor's letter that were a minor miscalculation at worst, refreshing candor at best. If anything the response on the forums only validates everything Greg said about the PA audience hivemind.

(For the record, I think PA is hilarious, most of the time.)

[aphoristic gamer]

These comments look like they're little but well-intended sarcastic and depreciating jokes that Kurtz took to heart for dubious reasons.

Anyhow, the somber fact that there is no PC release that was significant enough to take the place of Penny-Arcade's craptastic game on the cover is solid proof that PC Gamer is well past its prime.

[Guido Jones]

Is there anything that the PA guys won't get huffy about? jesus.

[Rob_Merritt]

This is a small, completely tangential point, but Jim Davis is still alive and creating new strips as far as I know. I think you've got him confused with Charles Schulz, creator of Peanuts, who passed away in 2000.


Hell, you know who is pushing for the fucking Garfield movies? Its Jim Davis himself. No one wanted a 2nd garfield movie but Davis got involved and got it green lit. He's threatening to fund a 3rd one himself is the studios wont make it. The man makes George Lucas look sane.

[Gary Whitta]

Anyhow, the somber fact that there is no PC release that was significant enough to take the place of Penny-Arcade's craptastic game on the cover is solid proof that PC Gamer is well past its prime.
This is bullshit, too. They just had STARCRAFT II on their last cover for fuck's sake, the biggest PC game to be announced in years. And if you knew some of the stuff that was going to be on future covers you'd know how much shit you were really talking.

The summer is a notoriously slow time for gaming releases and announcements, but even setting that aside I applaud PCG for featuring PA - a cult indie brand - on their cover when usually the publisher-level mandate is to favor huge, solid-gold franchises with mass audience recognition. I don't know if I would have done it when I was EIC.

I don't really know why I'm vociferously defending PCG so - it's not like they pay me that much - but I just can't help myself when certain people don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Failed attempt at humor incenses Internet hordes. News at 11.

[Alan Dunkin]

Jim Davis will now be referred to as Zombie Jim Davis in the future.

--- Alan

[metta]

That's funny. If you're an 11 year old boy. I stopped subscribing to PCG when the fart jokes and the "OMG WE'VE GOT ANOTHER UNIVERSAL EXCLUSIVE AND GUESS WHAT? WE GAVE IT 10/10 IT'S JUST TEH AWESOME" replaced all the content.

[Slainte Mhath]

I LOL'd at the whole thing.

I mean, come on people, the game itself got a cover (x5) and nice juicy write up in the mag. The only even partially negative press was that editorial, and that was more railing against the rabid fanboism mentality than anything directed personally at G&T.

Let's put this in perspective. I really like and respect Steve Bauman (former editor-in-chief of CGM), I really like and respect Jeff Green over at GFW/CGW, I'm ambivalent about Greg Vederman mostly because I don't read PCG very often. But at the end of the day these guys are still just game journalists, and their editorials are pretty much glorified message board posts in print form (and I say that with much love and respect!). The point is, they are there for you to agree or disagree with as you see fit. They are not meant to be reviews of a game or the gaming industry, they are not presented as indisputable fact, and they are heavily laced with personal opinion and attmepted comedy and inside humor. Sometimes it works, sometimes it falls flat, but it's certainly nothing to get all bent out of shape over.

If I decide to dislike something just because Greg Vederman wrote something negative about it, then I belong right there alongside the same idiots that believe that there has never been a bad Penny Arcade strip in the history of the comic.

I hope the Penny Arcade game is successful, but on it's own merits as a good game, not because legions of mindless drones will buy it out of misguided loyalty to their favorite web comic.

[Gunmetal]

I still remember Kurtz going off on some reviewer who complained that one of Kurtz's proteges/friends had basically duplicated the Fantastic Four comics.
The guy seems very protective of his friends... I guess that's a good thing. But the editorial didn't seem nearly as hateful as Scott Kurtz made it sound

[RickH]

Vede was right. But I'm still letting my subscription lapse because I have absolutely no use for the disc and paying $25 a year for it is ridiculous. I'll resubscribe when I find a deal for the bare issues.

Kurtz is oversensitive and has a history of throwing elbows when he doesn't need to.

I like the art style, but Penny Arcade is self-indulgent all the time and funny about 25% of the time. Good for them that they're making a living at it.

[Kunikos]

I AGREE WITH VEDE

[Kalle]

Kurtz is an asshat. I'm of the view that anything he says, I should automatically disagree with. Thus I conclude that Vede is a god among men deserving of my undying support.

[bigdruid]

Well, it's interesting.

I don't think Vede was particularly insulting to Penny Arcade - yeah, it's mildly insulting to be compared to innocuous vanilla fare like Garfield, that's the least of their problems.

As a P-A fan, what I object to is his explicit statement that Penny Arcade fans only like it because it's some sort of groupthink - I've convinced myself that it's funny because my friends think it's funny, and I have no mind of my own. So, when you attend Editor-in-Chief school, do they teach you to insult your readers, or what?

For the record, I have no friends, so his groupthink hypothesis is full of shit.

[Desslock]

Someone called Vede a jock?

[Wholly Schmidt]

Is there anything that the PA guys won't get huffy about? jesus.
The PA guys aren't huffy about anything, Scot Kurtz of PvPonline is the one with his panties in a bunch. This whole thing is stupid, Vede doesn't seem particularly funny, but he's also not particularly inflammatory, and Kurtz has a history of histrionics, end of story.

[tromik]

Vede was right. But I'm still letting my subscription lapse because I have absolutely no use for the disc and paying $25 a year for it is ridiculous. I'll resubscribe when I find a deal for the bare issues.
I wish I could get a decent gaming magazine for as low as $25 a year.

[Alan Au]

Some people take themselves too seriously. Hint: I'm not talking about Vede.

- Alan

[Sidd_Budd]

Vede was right. But I'm still letting my subscription lapse because I have absolutely no use for the disc and paying $25 a year for it is ridiculous. I'll resubscribe when I find a deal for the bare issues.

Presto! (http://www.magazines.com/ncom/mag?mid=3169)

[Mordrak]

Though the idea of a zombie Jim Davis writing the comic would explain a hell of a lot.

Troy

Actually, Garfield is written a year in advance now. I think that explains a lot.

[worm]

As a P-A fan, what I object to is his explicit statement that Penny Arcade fans only like it because it's some sort of groupthink - I've convinced myself that it's funny because my friends think it's funny
Yeah, try not to forget this Kuntz guy and the collective fans who are probably shitting themselves over this whole thing. I'm sure there are people who just really think that PA is funny most of the time because of their rugged individualism, but I think you're the only one.

I’m buying all five covers, because I want them on my shelf.And one day I can show them to my kids and tell them the story of how the guys who were on MPOG.COM with daddy became rock stars who didn’t really need the largest gaming magazine in the world to sell their game.
Next time maybe they should say Gabe and Tycho teabag one another? Maybe he'd buy two of each cover then?

[unbongwah]

Presto! (http://www.magazines.com/ncom/mag?mid=3169)
I can do better (http://www.bestdealmagazines.com/title.asp?title=PC+GAMER).

[Rimbo]

These comments look like they're little but well-intended sarcastic and depreciating jokes that Kurtz took to heart for dubious reasons.

Is there anything that the PA guys won't get huffy about? jesus

To be clear, these are not the "PA guys," this is Scott Kurtz of PVP. The "PA guys" don't care so much (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2007/05/25), as Balasarius points out.

Kurtz says as much that this is an emotional issue for him: "On top of that friendship, I think I have almost 10 years on Gabe and Tycho, so despite the fact that they have professionally left the stratosphere and me well in their shadow, I still get proud of them in a big-brother kind of way whenever they do something astounding." So he is admitting that his defense is dubious.

I think Kurtz gets a little touchy about the subject of webcomics, since it's an issue he's not just deeply involved in but cares very much about. He's gone off on more than one thing with minor provocation; this is just the latest episode.

[Robert Sharp]

I can do better (http://www.bestdealmagazines.com/title.asp?title=PC+GAMER).

Damn. Is that legit? No strings attached? No small print that I'm missing?

[Gary Whitta]

What I don't get about that is that it says "1 year - 12 issues" but PCG puts out 13 issues a year.

[quatoria]

There's a certain irony that Kurtz's response to his anger at PC gamer is.... to buy all five copies. Wow, that'll show 'em!

[Drastic]

I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU!!! ::sob:: havesomemoremoney I HATE YOU!

[Matt Perkins]

I wish I could get a decent gaming magazine for as low as $25 a year.
NOT getting PC Gamer is a good start.

[Hanacker]

Actually, Garfield is written a year in advance now. I think that explains a lot. Why Garfield has ceased with its hard-hitting look at current events?

[unbongwah]

Damn. Is that legit? No strings attached? No small print that I'm missing?
I've dealt with them before: no problems to report, though it does usually take a couple of months before you start receiving issues. I mean, I may have put myself on a bunch of mailing lists without noticing; but I get so much crap in the mail already, what's a little more?

[olaf]

I agree with the Vede too. And PA takes itself WAY too seriously.

[Mark Crump]

I think the best part is that Kurtz has no problems posting a scan of the article. I'd like to see someone do that with his books.

[Kevin Grey]

Reading that editorial I think Vederman took the wrong approach trying to be funny while saying that he doesn't think PA is particularly funny. PA may be hit and miss, but there isn't a single humorous thing in his column (a lame mom joke, seriously?).

[Lum]

Scott Kurtz has a long history of self-righteous, whiningly histrionic Internet-fanboy-avatar ranting.

Greg Vederman has a long history of puerile, smugly condescending Maxim-calibre "journalism".

Who am I supposed to be rooting for again? Oh, right, Penny Arcade. Funny stuff.

[quatoria]

Reading that editorial I think Vederman took the wrong approach trying to be funny while saying that he doesn't think PA is particularly funny. PA may be hit and miss, but there isn't a single humorous thing in his column (a lame mom joke, seriously?).

Actually, the joke would be if all the pissed off penny-arcade fans run out and buy five copies, just like Kurtz, to show their support.... making this one of the best selling issues of PC Gamer. I'd be pretty confident in saying Vede would get the last laugh, in that scenario.

[Rimbo]

Scott Kurtz has a long history of self-righteous, whiningly histrionic Internet-fanboy-avatar ranting.

Greg Vederman has a long history of puerile, smugly condescending Maxim-calibre "journalism".

Who am I supposed to be rooting for again? Oh, right, Penny Arcade. Funny stuff.

No, no no, see, if you root for Penny Arcade, then you're one of the mindless fanatics. ;) ;) ;)

[MikeSolita]

I just don't get where Kurtz is coming from, at all. Vede didn't seem to shit all over P-A to me. The only think he took some shots at was the cultish following that states that "P-A" == good. I think I'm all right with the editors of gaming magazines not feeling inclined to blindly follow the masses no matter what.

I remember reading Greg's editor's letter in that issue and totally did a double-take: "Holy crap. Did The Vede really just write that?"

Those editor's letters usually just rally around your magazine and make people excited to read the cover story or highlight other features or explain some background details about certain stories.

Instead, Greg used it to express his doubts about the cover story -- I mean, that is just extremely weird. It's not like Penny Arcade is some controversial issue that has pros/cons and Vederman's playing the impartial observer. He just out and said he doesn't like PA and wouldn't have put them on the cover if his co-workers didn't convince him to.

[Coca Cola Zero]

PC Gamer is irrelevant because PC gaming is irrelevant.

Penny Arcade is like Family Dad -- not funny more than funny, but occassionally so ridiculously funny that it is worth tuning into every couple of weeks with one finger on the fast-forward (or 'Next Comic') button.

[worm]

Did they consolidate American Dad and Family Guy, or what?

[Mordrak]

PC Gamer is irrelevant because PC gaming is irrelevant.

Penny Arcade is like Family Dad -- not funny more than funny, but occassionally so ridiculously funny that it is worth tuning into every couple of weeks with one finger on the fast-forward (or 'Next Comic') button.

You sir, have declared war.

[Ben Sones]

I agree with the Vede too. And PA takes itself WAY too seriously.

I like PA. It's often quite funny. I don't really know the PA guys other than through their front page updates, but in those, at least, they don't seem to take much of anything seriously.

[RepoMan]

You sir, have declared war.
On who? PC Gamer, or Penny Arcade?

I swear, people have got to say who the fuck they are talking about in this thread. There are so many people and/or entities to hate and/or love in here now.

[Chuck Jordan]

a minor miscalculation at worst, refreshing candor at best. If anything the response on the forums only validates everything Greg said about the PA audience hivemind.
"Refreshing candor?" Making an uber-lame "I fucked your mom" joke, going on a self-indulgent walk down memory lane about the Weekly Reader and Garfield books, and jumping on the "Penny Arcade sux hurrr" bandwagon, is what counts as "refreshing candor" these days? Are we seeing a PA audience hivemind, or a PC Gamer staff hivemind?

I suspected that print videogame magazines had become completely irrelevant these days, but this seems to confirm it.

I can take or leave the comic strip, but the game looks to have potential to be pretty novel, or at least funny. So I've got nothing invested in this other than getting annoyed by blatant displays of douchebaggery. That editorial is like the third or fourth time in the last month I've seen somebody from PC Gamer saying, "I didn't like x, and the people who do are obviously sheep/poseurs/have lowered their standards." You kind find that kind of BS on digg and a billion other websites without having to kill a tree.

[KieronGillen]

And is it me, or is there far more than the usual "PC GAMER? PC GAYMEN!!!! more like" comments in this thread for Qt3?

Gentlemen.

KG

[Mordrak]

On who? PC Gamer, or Penny Arcade?

I swear, people have got to say who the fuck they are talking about in this thread. There are so many people and/or entities to hate and/or love in here now.

It's turned into the forum version of a tavern brawl. Just grab a chair and have at it. It doesn't matter.*




*I was referring to his derogatory comments about those fine upstanding shows, Family Guy and American Dad.

[Zylon]

I like PA. It's often quite funny.
On the geologic scale, yes.

PA is pretty well summed up by the fact that their main page doesn't even have the comic on it.

[unbongwah]

So basically, Vederman wrote an unfunny humor column criticizing Penny Arcade for being an unfunny humor webcomic and its fans for being a raving pack of mindless drones. Then Scott Kurtz, himself a creator of a humor webcomic, gets bent out of shape and writes an unfunny rant about it.

For a bunch of supposedly funny guys, I'm not getting as many belly laughs as I expected. I give this situation a 4/10.

[Patrick]

Thanks,
This does remind me to send off my renewal though.

[Derek French]

Someone called Vede a jock?
Yeah, that was where I got all confused.

[Derek French]

I agree with the Vede too. And PA takes itself WAY too seriously.
I dunno. I really haven't ever got that feeling from them or their website or comics.

[Derek French]

I think the best part is that Kurtz has no problems posting a scan of the article. I'd like to see someone do that with his books.
You mean the scans from his books, like his entire freely available website of comics? Sorry, where are you trying to go with this one?

[RepoMan]

Gentlemen.
Um, now who the fuck are YOU talking about?????

[KieronGillen]

<Walks into the bar-room, gets hit by chair, collapses>

KG

[worm]

Yeah, that was where I got all confused.
I guess relatively Kuntz the First Screecher feels that someone who has a wider audience than himself is equivocal to a jock?

On the other hand, the editor makes it clear in his column that he hates Penny Arcade, but not so much that he won't use us to sell his magazine.
I still think Gabe puts it the best, if he didn't act like it was surprising. Just because people don't slobber your knob doesn't mean they won't use you to make money. Whereas PA only draws little pictures for knobs they slobber. So I guess they feel it's disingenuous if someone does otherwise.

[RepoMan]

Wo, so PA is making money by slobbering little pictures all over the knobs of those they hate?

PA is no better than PCG, and Kurtz is such a jock-hater he calls Vede a jock. (BAAAAAA HAH HAAAAA! Vede! A jock!)

NOW this thread is starting to deliver.

[Matt Perkins]

Wait a sec... last time I checked, the PA guys don't slob the knobs of games/products they don't like. They mention that from time to time.

[Myth]

"Refreshing candor?" Making an uber-lame "I fucked your mom" joke, going on a self-indulgent walk down memory lane about the Weekly Reader and Garfield books, and jumping on the "Penny Arcade sux hurrr" bandwagon, is what counts as "refreshing candor" these days? Are we seeing a PA audience hivemind, or a PC Gamer staff hivemind?
I suspected that print videogame magazines had become completely irrelevant these days, but this seems to confirm it.

I wouldn't go as far as saying videogame magazines in general. There are still a few good ones out there. Unfortunatley PCGamer has steadily declined over the years. I once attributed my dislike of this generation PC Gamer magazine to my growing older, and not being able to quite appreciate this new brand of cynical writing and sophmoric humour, but stuff like this really makes me wonder if PC Gamer is trying too hard to rise from the ashes of the old PC Accelerator mag which failed miserably.

The only thing worthwhile in PC Gamer these days is Desslock's rpg and Andy Mahood's (if he still writes for them) column, and sadly that alone is not worth the cover price.

[EDIT] Personally I have no problem with a Greg Vederman editorial stating his true thoughts on Penny Arcade. It's just that the juvenile, unfunny delivery is suprising considering he is the EIC of a major gaming mag. But I guess that pretty much sums up in general what PC Gamer has become.

[worm]

Wo, so PA is making money by slobbering little pictures all over the knobs of those they hate?
Look how little he devotes his news post to it. Obviously he couldn't give a shit! Not to mention he didn't know that PCG were fucking trash until he got his advanced issue, which contained the article that he doesn't even CARE ABOUT. Maybe he just knows that mentioning it in passing will set the moron corps in motion?

Wait a sec... last time I checked, the PA guys don't slob the knobs of games/products they don't like. They mention that from time to time.
Yeah. That's what I mean. That's why they have an obvious issue with the editor, because it's the god forsaken "shilling" they fear and do not understand so. They only draw pictures for games they love, and cannot fathom PCG's editor letting something go when the pros outweigh the negatives of him disliking their comic.

psh, my hivemind can beat up your hivemind. Honestly, it's not a bandwagon. Lots of people don't like Penny Arcade, too bad a chud slipped in and put himself up as the mouthpiece.

EDIT: Did you guys read this? He brings up garfield as an example of groupthink and really criticizes the people who go to expos and worship the PA guys. He even says he finds "a large number of strips genuinely entertaining"(which I think is a bit much). How the fuck could this be thought of as "hate" or some kind of betrayal is fucking beyond me, he's essentially just saying he doesn't love it. Way to prove more than the expo junkies are in the groupthink I guess.

I wish I read the article earlier so I knew that Gabe among everyone else was completely mischaracterizing it.

[bigdruid]

EDIT: Did you guys read this? He brings up garfield as an example of groupthink and really criticizes the people who go to expos and worship the PA guys.
Um, that was my point, way back at the start of page 2.

He's insulting PA Fans, not Penny Arcade itself. Given that most of his readers are likely to be fans of PA, I'm really surprised that he'd go out of his way to insult them.

[RepoMan]

Wait a sec... last time I checked, the PA guys don't slob the knobs of games/products they don't like. They mention that from time to time.
Excuse me? How many PA strips are about games they hate? LOTS AND LOTS. PA totally makes money off of things they hate.

I'd bet even some of the games they bash benefit from the PA exposure. But I suppose that's debatable. Anyway, that's what I meant, though I admit I fucked up the meaning of knob slobbing.

[Wholly Schmidt]

And what's up with movie review sites talking about bad movies?! Man, where do they get off thinking people want to hear about anything but good movies? The nerve!

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Don't mind worm. He has to make three stupid posts here per day, or the Caltrops guys will make him drink pee. And he stopped liking pee after the first few months.

[Mark Crump]

You mean the scans from his books, like his entire freely available website of comics? Sorry, where are you trying to go with this one?

Yeah, I meant if someone posted a scan from his books. Full Disclosure, I don't know if his books are retreads of the webcomic. But, where I was going is if someone scanned something he didn't have freeley available posted as part of a PVP rant.

[jfletch]

I started reading mags beside Nintendo Power and GamePro maybe 1995 or 1996. Of all the ones that are still around PC Gamer has declined the most. I'm not saying this to kiss his ass because he is prominent here, but the mag really went down the shitter when Whitta left. The decline was startling and immediate. I remember cringing almost every time I read Greg Vederman's columns in the front of the hardware section. This is totally lowbrow and classless and not really surprising coming from this once-great magazine. Final nail in the coffin, perhaps.

[Dave Long]

I have RTFA and I think Greg probably should've picked an entirely different topic for his editorial. His statements and comments make me think he doesn't want the game on the cover and really didn't want the story in the first place. What's the point of writing an editorial like that?

If nothing else, it makes me wonder if he picked the feature or if marketing picked it for him...

This is the same issue where they rip off Sparky's Accordion Hero too. :(

[worm]

Um, that was my point, way back at the start of page 2.

He's insulting PA Fans, not Penny Arcade itself. Given that most of his readers are likely to be fans of PA, I'm really surprised that he'd go out of his way to insult them.
Yeah, but there wasn't even a direct comparison to Garfield. He even goes out of his way to say that. Fuck man, he even says he enjoys the comic, thus a fan, thus declaring himself part of the groupthink? No.

He said that people who buy too many damn t-shirts and tailgate PA expos are out of their fucking gourds. Honestly, I didn't get the impression from your post that the article was so innocuous. I really just thought the guy said he didn't like the comic and thought all the fans were part of a groupthink.

He's just stating that something on the internet has way too many diehards which give it this disproportionate hype. How is that insulting all the fans? He thinks people are crazy about the damn comic, doesn't think it's entirely because the comic is perfect and amazing, and because of that mentioned it in his little letter and went ahead with the deal. There's really nothing insulting about the article at all, except to superfans I guess.

Don't mind worm. He has to make three stupid posts here per day, or the Caltrops guys will make him drink pee. And he stopped liking pee after the first few months.
Hey, don't talk about piss drinking in a negative light here. We respect everyone at QT3 regardless of their choice of beverage. I'm totally accepting that your preference is cum, and I admire you for still enjoying the taste.

[Raife]

Hey, don't talk about piss drinking in a negative light here. We respect everyone at QT3 regardless of their choice of beverage.

Please not to be including yourself in the Quarter to Three badger herd.

[worm]

I was just typing that way for effect. I realize the entry level is at least 5k posts.

[Sparky]

This is the same issue where they rip off Sparky's Accordion Hero too. :(
PC GAYMR r Penny Arcade haterz and joke thieves!11!!!!

[aphoristic gamer]

Yeah, but there wasn't even a direct comparison to Garfield. He even goes out of his way to say that. Fuck man, he even says he enjoys the comic, thus a fan, thus declaring himself part of the groupthink? No.

He said that people who buy too many damn t-shirts and tailgate PA expos are out of their fucking gourds. Honestly, I didn't get the impression from your post that the article was so innocuous. I really just thought the guy said he didn't like the comic and thought all the fans were part of a groupthink.

He's just stating that something on the internet has way too many diehards which give it this disproportionate hype. How is that insulting all the fans? He thinks people are crazy about the damn comic, doesn't think it's entirely because the comic is perfect and amazing, and because of that mentioned it in his little letter and went ahead with the deal. There's really nothing insulting about the article at all, except to superfans I guess.

Yeah, some of us are just a little puzzled by the passion that certain people dedicate to the following of these comics and by the fans' admiration, and in most cases it's not because we feel scorn or because we plainly dislike it all. In the same way, we might be puzzled that it now deserves a front page, prevailing before many major game releases. I guess that this editorial can convey that feeling that many people could have towards Penny-Arcade, but in a good way.

[mono]

I can do better (http://www.bestdealmagazines.com/title.asp?title=PC+GAMER).

That ain't nothin' (http://tinyurl.com/35kxrr). I ordered PC Gamer from some Ebay seller last year. It takes nearly 3 months for the first issue to arrive, but from then on, it's monthly, as usual.

I don't know how these Ebay subscription services sell the mags so cheaply.

[worm]

They're probably doing something shady with all those CDs you don't get.

[forgeforsaken]

PA got too big, too close to the industry, and too self referential. They also do way too many vanity projects. They really haven't been funny in years, and they are often behind the curve of many games and issues.

[Wholly Schmidt]

They also do way too many vanity projects.
They are a vanity project, they're two guys that started a webcomic. Whatever crazy standard you're holding them too, I'm pretty sure they don't share your illusions.

[Case]

They are a vanity project, they're two guys that started a webcomic. Whatever crazy standard you're holding them too, I'm pretty sure they don't share your illusions.

Yeah, it's kinda like holding Jon Stewart up to some kind of standard of journalistic excellence ;-)

[Mordrak]

They are a vanity project, they're two guys that started a webcomic. Whatever crazy standard you're holding them too, I'm pretty sure they don't share your illusions.

Seriously. If their crazed vanity lets them get away with basically making an adventure game, then we need more crazy vain people.

[forgeforsaken]

I stand by my statement. I also think the biggest issue they have is they've pretty much become part of the industry they started out lampooning. They are kind of the AICN of the video game world.

[Mordrak]

I stand by my statement. I also think the biggest issue they have is they've pretty much become part of the industry they started out lampooning. They are kind of the AICN of the video game world.

I can see that in principle, but comparing them to Harry Knowles is low. I'm sure Knowles is a nice guy, but at least they generally know how to use low brow humor/terminology effectively.

[Wholly Schmidt]

I stand by my statement. I also think the biggest issue they have is they've pretty much become part of the industry they started out lampooning. They are kind of the AICN of the video game world.
They're transparent about their affiliations to the industry, they require playable builds of games (and enjoyment of said builds) before they'll advertise one on their site, they don't pull punches with the games they don't like, no matter who they're from, and they're not a review site in the first place. They've never held any pretense about being your reliable source for fair and objective opinions on games. They joke all the time about entire genres they are completely disinterested in (see recent Forza 2 comments: they don't guardedly say "Well racing isn't my first choice, but I've played this and I can see that X, Y, and Z, so I give it an 8.5", they say "I don't get this racing stuff, but man, look at the paint jobs. Next subject!"); they're very open about their biases and preferences. It's just two guys talking about games they like and don't like, and the stories that come out of the industry.

Now I know two things about AICN: I hate big purple type, and Harry Knowles is fat (lol?). Maybe, other than those two things, they're in an identical position, Penny-Arcade's Cinematic Dopplegangers. And if that's the case, well, the purple type is still a deal-breaker with prior offenses being enough to keep me away now and forever, but other than that, if that's really what AICN is, then I don't see a problem there either. I have a feeling that's not the case, I have a feeling your comparison is simply way off, but since you don't explain specifically what's wrong with AICN, I'll just have to let it slide.

[Sebmolo]

Penny Arcade are kind of the Scott Adams/Dilbert of snarky video game commentary. Most of the time they're pretty good, sometimes they're dull, occasionally they just nail it.

Definitely a lot more to praise than to criticise. But, of course, I must acknowledge, etc. I give them 9/10!!

[RepoMan]

Also, don't forget Child's Play ($1 million in charitable toys & games last year to sick kids) and PAX (by all accounts a very well run expo, by gamers, for gamers).

Gabe and Tycho don't just have their weird webcomic going for them. They care a lot about the community, their fans, and their hobby. And that is a big part of what's earned them their following.

I think Bill Harris has a good breakdown (http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2007/06/pc-gamer-on-rain-slick-precipice-of.html) of the underlying issue with Vede's editorial, considering it purely as an essay:
At this point, Vederman goes on a long diversion back to his childhood--half the editorial, actually, to establish that Garfield wasn't really funny: "...The enormous orange cat in the room was that Garfield wasn't actually funny."

After spending all his time doing that, though, he then denies what he's implying: "Now, having said all that, I don't mean to imply that I think Penny Arcade is much like Garfield--hell no; I actually find a large number of Gabe's and Tycho's strips genuinely entertaining..."

Vederman then talks about his friend Josh, who IS the quintessential hardcore Penny Arcade fan: "...I believe he only thinks the strip is amusing because he and his fellow fanbois are suffering from a mass Garfield-like delusion."

It's much more interesting if you read the full editorial (here it is again), but those excepts should give you an idea of the grinding awkwardness of Vederman's entire editorial. He presents a premise, denies that it's his premise, then reinforces the premise as his conclusion.
That's... um... that's pretty much true.

[sventest]

Funny but awkwardly written.

And why must everything be taken so seriously. For fucks sake, we're all in the game's industry. Lighten up.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Funny but awkwardly written.

And why must everything be taken so seriously. For fucks sake, we're all in the game's industry. Lighten up.
We've covered that, the only person to take this so seriously is Scot Kurtz, who takes everything way too seriously to begin with (except hosting and server decisions, zing!).

[Derek French]

Yeah, I meant if someone posted a scan from his books. Full Disclosure, I don't know if his books are retreads of the webcomic. But, where I was going is if someone scanned something he didn't have freeley available posted as part of a PVP rant.
Ah, gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up.

[instant0]

Yeah, it's kinda like holding Jon Stewart up to some kind of standard of journalistic excellence ;-)

Or even Journalists...

[RickH]

Penny Arcade are kind of the Scott Adams/Dilbert of snarky video game commentary.

Wow, comparing a guy with wide mainstream commercial success as a cartoonist and business book author to guys with poor sequential storytelling skills who can't make their points without gay jokes and using the word "fuck" as a universal dialouge element.

Yeah, that works.

[RickH]

I agree with the Vede too. And PA takes itself WAY too seriously.

I dunno. I really haven't ever got that feeling from them or their website or comics.

Then you haven't read them describe their crusade to defend the world from Jack Thompson.

[AaronSofaer]

Then you haven't read them describe their crusade to defend the world from Jack Thompson.

I have, and I don't think they take themselves that seriously.

[metta]

Then you haven't read them describe their crusade to defend the world from Jack Thompson.

At least they put their money where their mouths are. Let's see you pony up $10,000 to call them on their hubris.

Anyone who gets behind any kind of charity work gets my support. Child's Play (http://www.childsplaycharity.org/) is an awesome project.

[SpoofyChop]

Man I'm loving the hell out of this thread!

[RickH]

At least they put their money where their mouths are. Let's see you pony up $10,000 to call them on their hubris.

Anyone who gets behind any kind of charity work gets my support. Child's Play (http://www.childsplaycharity.org/) is an awesome project.

So...doing good works is conclusive proof that someone is not self-important. Good to know.

[unbongwah]

He's insulting PA Fans, not Penny Arcade itself.
Considering he's basically saying he doesn't think PA is all that funny (though he does find a "large number of strips" to be "genuinely entertaining," whatever the hell that means) and that its horde of rabid fans are suffering from "groupthink" - comparing it to one of the most milquetoast newspaper comics of modern times, as though "Nermal == Fruit Fucker" - I'd say he's implicitly insulting the readers and the strip. At the very least he's being kinda condescending and presumptuous. He's just trying to be polite about it. Which doesn't usually work.

"It was just an insult. No offense was intended."

Honestly, if he had just said, "I don't much care for PA and I scratch my head over what the big deal is; but it clearly is a big deal, and my job in EiC is to cover games which are a big deal, even if I'm not that interested in the source material myself," that would've been fine. He would've been stating his personal indifference towards a subject, but acknowledging that his duties as a responsible EiC trumped his feelings. Instead, he constructs a convoluted analogy to try to support why he doesn't care for PA and why he thinks its fans are essentially mindless fanboys. He makes the mistake of trying to "prove" his opinion is fact.

Seriously, Vede, next time just say, "It isn't for me. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/24)" You'll save yourself a lot of headache.

[metta]

So...doing good works is conclusive proof that someone is not self-important. Good to know.

No. Both of those things can be true.

I'm not a slavering PA fanb0i. Some of their stuff I find funny, some I do not. But these fellas seem like they understand their good fortune and are grateful for it, and that goes a long way with me. I tend to cut folks more slack if they're also trying to do some good in the world.

[Wobbo]

Scott Kurtz has a long history of self-righteous, whiningly histrionic Internet-fanboy-avatar ranting.

Greg Vederman has a long history of puerile, smugly condescending Maxim-calibre "journalism".

Who am I supposed to be rooting for again? Oh, right, Penny Arcade. Funny stuff.
Close thread

[Thomas Wilde]

I'm not a slavering PA fanb0i. Some of their stuff I find funny, some I do not. But these fellas seem like they understand their good fortune and are grateful for it, and that goes a long way with me. I tend to cut folks more slack if they're also trying to do some good in the world.

Yeah, that's about where I am on the subject. I think the comic strip itself has suffered as Tycho and Gabe have become more entrenched in the industry; between PAX, Child's Play, their PC game, and their other side projects, the strip has lost some of the energy that made it a must-read when I was in college.

It still occasionally hits one out of the park, but for what you get out of the average PA strip, it really should be coming out five days a week.

[SpoofyChop]

I think the comic strip itself has suffered as Tycho and Gabe have become more entrenched in the industry

Indeed.

[Igor Muravyev]

The Vede needs to stop going off about privacy rants in a podcast about pc games.

[Matt Perkins]

So...doing good works is conclusive proof that someone is not self-important. Good to know.
What crawled up your ass and died, friend?

PA ain't always the funniest, but to me, they are the closest thing we gamers have to spokesmen for our peoples. Though I think if you were to ask them, they'd deny it. And I like that about them.

[RickH]

PA ain't always the funniest, but to me, they are the closest thing we gamers have to spokesmen for our peoples. Though I think if you were to ask them, they'd deny it. And I like that about them.

Reasons given to like the PA guys:

They throw a nice convention
They're humble
They give to charity
They complain about the same things a lot of gamers complain about

Reasons not given to like the PA guys:

Their comic, which is the basis for their entire enterprise, is consistently funny.

I find this dichotomy odd. And I stand behind both my earlier praise (art style) and my earlier criticism (overreliance on curse words and gay jokes; lack of sequential storytelling skill). Due to the fixation on curse words and perversity, they're out of the mainstream and poor representatives for the gaming industry.

But they have a cult following, probably due to the fact they're living the lives a lot of nerds would like to live.

[Mordrak]

I find this dichotomy odd. And I stand behind both my earlier praise (art style) and my earlier criticism (overreliance on curse words and gay jokes; lack of sequential storytelling skill). Due to the fixation on curse words and perversity, they're out of the mainstream and poor representatives for the gaming industry.


I never understood why they've been criticisized for not telling stories. Far Side, one of, if not the, greatest comic of all time didn't. I'm not saying they are that good, just that it's a choice of form, not substance, and really isn't a criticism in and of itself.


But they have a cult following, probably due to the fact they're living the lives a lot of nerds would like to live.

That's true.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Reasons given to like the PA guys:

They throw a nice convention
They're humble
They give to charity
They complain about the same things a lot of gamers complain about

Reasons not given to like the PA guys:

Their comic, which is the basis for their entire enterprise, is consistently funny.

I find this dichotomy odd.

Well, if I said "Hey, those Penny Arcade guys are funny", and you said "No, they're not" (not you personally, wherever you fall on the subject), I might give a frustrated attempt or two like "Seriously? But what about the strip where...", but ultimately, if I say Funny and you say Not Funny, we can't really go anywhere from there.

But if I say "Swell guys" and you say "Take themselves too seriously, self-righteous, whatever", then I can come back and say "No, look at their track record, they've done this, this, this, said this repeatedly, and also this."

There's not much to debate if you just don't think they're funny. If you have a mistaken idea of what they stand for and what their goals are, well that we can get into a discussion about.

[Drastic]

It's pretty telling of just how far in their shadow Kurtz is that he can wear a shirt with "I'M A HUGE IDIOT" printed on in block letters, try to shit in his hand to throw it at PC Gamer (but forget he's still wearing pants when he tries)...and the discussion is overwhelmingly about Penny Arcade.

I also think PC Gamer should respond by dedicating its next issue's cover to being mostly whitespace, with "Kurtz Is An Idiot" in big bold type on it. And no mention at all inside the magazine itself. That'd keep the entertainment rolling.

[worm]

Considering he's basically saying he doesn't think PA is all that funny (though he does find a "large number of strips" to be "genuinely entertaining," whatever the hell that means)
I think it means he thinks it's funny but not worthy of the current status of worship it seems to hold with many people. Particularly his co-workers and after the fact this kurtz guy. I thought the basis on which he didn't want it on the cover because he felt it would feed the hype.

Honestly, if he had just said, "I don't much care for PA and I scratch my head over what the big deal is; but it clearly is a big deal, and my job in EiC is to cover games which are a big deal, even if I'm not that interested in the source material myself," that would've been fine. He would've been stating his personal indifference towards a subject, but acknowledging that his duties as a responsible EiC trumped his feelings. Instead, he constructs a convoluted analogy to try to support why he doesn't care for PA and why he thinks its fans are essentially mindless fanboys. He makes the mistake of trying to "prove" his opinion is fact.

Seriously, Vede, next time just say, "It isn't for me. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/24)" You'll save yourself a lot of headache.
Yeah, he definitely could have put it better. Though to act like he explicitly is talking about all fans is wrong. Unless all fans do own every piece of merchandise, and do travel to every expo. Obviously people can think the comic is worth some merit without walking around wearing a replica of Gabe's in-comic shirt.

[noun]

I'd rather read Penny Arcade than PC Gamer.

[Alan Dunkin]

He's the freakin' EIC, he should have ultimate or at least majority say on what the cover should be. On the masthead his name is at the very top.

To put things on the cover is to feed the hype. If you don't want to feed the hype, don't put it on the cover. Sounds pretty simple.

--- Alan

[worm]

He's the freakin' EIC, he should have ultimate or at least majority say on what the cover should be. On the masthead his name is at the very top.

To put things on the cover is to feed the hype. If you don't want to feed the hype, don't put it on the cover. Sounds pretty simple.

--- Alan
I'm not celebrating him. I'm just explaining what he said as someone who can read it and not feel a phantom fist punch me in the stomach. He didn't insult all the fans and he didn't say he doesn't like the comic.

[Jason Cross]

These comments look like they're little but well-intended sarcastic and depreciating jokes that Kurtz took to heart for dubious reasons.

I dunno. I read the editorial and it definitely came off as pretty harsh toward PA. He has a couple of tacit "now I actually think some of what they do is good" sentences in there, but they're the kind of brief asides that look almost as if Greg put them in there for fear of backlash. I know that's not the case, but that's how it comes off. He spends most of his column setting up how crappy Garfield is and then saying that PA is like Garfield and for some reason he doesn't understand why they have a legion of hardcore PA fans.

A valid opinion, but almost unprecedented commentary for something you just did a cover story on. A five-cover collectible cover story thing, at that.

I can see how what Greg has in his head about PA and its quality and popularity is perhaps not what came out in that column. That kind of thing has happened to me, and if you write in a periodical long enough it's going to happen a few times. But I think it was maybe bad form from the start. "I don't quite understand the whole PA phenomenon" as a column topic is maybe not the best idea for a PA game cover issue.

Anyhow, the somber fact that there is no PC release that was significant enough to take the place of Penny-Arcade's craptastic game on the cover is solid proof that PC Gamer is well past its prime.

Oh, I totally disagree. It's not that the PA game is "big" so much as it's interesting. I mean, the very idea that a couple of guys who started off writing comics about gamer culture would strike such a chord with people that they would have the resources and fan base to be able to go full circle and create their own game (and not just some flash browser game or something) is a big deal.

[Jay Adan]

I found it ironic that he spent that much time trying to convince everybody who enjoys PA that it isn't funny... in a funny way... that wasn't particularly funny... at all. I did end up hungry for lasagna though.

Oh, and I'm a shameless PA fanboy (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/241/521436730_7f0b0d3444.jpg).

[worm]

I dunno. I read the editorial and it definitely came off as pretty harsh toward PA. He has a couple of tacit "now I actually think some of what they do is good" sentences in there,
Bullshit. He didn't say anything like that and you're framing the article to be something where he talks about how he hated PA and now begrudgingly gives it a nod on the eve of it going on the cover of his magazine. The guy says he likes a large amount of the comics.

He spends most of his column setting up how crappy Garfield is and then saying that PA is like Garfield and for some reason he doesn't understand why they have a legion of hardcore PA fans.
He tried to say that garfield was an example of groupthink and so are the hardcore base of merchandise buying PA fans who love every comic. Right after the obtuse reference to Garfield (and claiming he thought it was bad in 1st grade and gave a proper critique of it) he disclaims that he means to compare Garfield to PA pretty plainly.

I found it ironic that he spent that much time trying to convince everybody who enjoys PA that it isn't funny
No. He just says it's not so great to merit the worship which it does undeniably receive. How is it such a shocking thing to say that something shouldn't be worshiped? Oh yeah, we're on the internet. I think less of PA's fans each time someone on here tries to frame it like the guy hates the comic or is insulting all the fans. He's just not bowing and writes badly, that's it. Not an assault on your philosopher kings or anything like that.

[TriggerHappy]

Bullshit. He didn't say anything like that and you're framing the article to be something where he talks about how he hated PA and now begrudgingly gives it a nod on the eve of it going on the cover of his magazine. The guy says he likes a large amount of the comics.


He tried to say that garfield was an example of groupthink and so are the hardcore base of merchandise buying PA fans who love every comic. Right after the obtuse reference to Garfield (and claiming he thought it was bad in 1st grade and gave a proper critique of it) he disclaims that he means to compare Garfield to PA pretty plainly.


No. He just says it's not so great to merit the worship which it does undeniably receive. How is it such a shocking thing to say that something shouldn't be worshiped? Oh yeah, we're on the internet. I think less of PA's fans each time someone on here tries to frame it like the guy hates the comic or is insulting all the fans. He's just not bowing and writes badly, that's it. Not an assault on your philosopher kings or anything like that.

Read it again, worm. Seriously.

"The Penny-Arcade phenomenon reminds me of the Garfield phenomenon" followed by a description of the Garfield phenomenon which is that he and his friends convinced themselves that Garfield is funny.

Only one friend, Josh, buys all the swag. The others are only mentioned as also thinking the strip is funny. As soon as Vede establishes that fact, says to this:

"[he thinks that]...because he and his fellow fanbois are suffering from a mass-Garfield like delusion"

He finishes with a paragraph implying that poor sales this month would prove his friends are 'delusional' when the only thing his friends have in common in the context of the editorial is that they find PA funny.

[TriggerHappy]

For the record, I find most PA strips damn funny, some only so-so, and some I just don't get.

I also think anyone claiming they take themselves too seriously because there are a couple of issues they take seriously, such as video game censorship or charity, is just looking for something to hate.

[Jay Adan]

Bullshit. He didn't say anything like that and you're framing the article to be something where he talks about how he hated PA and now begrudgingly gives it a nod on the eve of it going on the cover of his magazine. The guy says he likes a large amount of the comics.

Yes, but then he goes on to say how his best friend (who's mother he sleeps with) keeps trying to convince him that it's funny and that all he sees is lasagna. So which is it? Does he like a lot of them or not? Because apparently even though he finds a lot of them funny he thinks that all of the fans don't REALLY think that they're funny. They're all being controlled by group-think and therefore just SAY that they think the comics are funny.

Personally, I don't think that they're all funny. I think that the comic is funny more often than not. I dread the Cardboard Tube Samurai stuff. The blog is usually at least interesting. But yes, I am a fan.

[worm]

Read it again, worm. Seriously.

"The Penny-Arcade phenomenon reminds me of the Garfield phenomenon" followed by a description of the Garfield phenomenon which is that he and his friends convinced themselves that Garfield is funny.

Only one friend, Josh, buys all the swag. The others are only mentioned as also thinking the strip is funny. As soon as Vede establishes that fact, says to this:

"[he thinks that]...because he and his fellow fanbois are suffering from a mass-Garfield like delusion"

He finishes with a paragraph implying that poor sales this month would prove his friends are 'delusional' when the only thing his friends have in common in the context of the editorial is that they find PA funny.
He actually says "every strip" earlier in the article. Since he previously states that he likes a large amount of PA we can only assume he's putting forth a scenario where his overzealous superfan friend is sending him a crappy PA strip(they exist!). It's pretty simple, if you just read the article without thinking it's heresy.

As for the end, that was a joke.

Yes, but then he goes on to say how his best friend (who's mother he sleeps with) keeps trying to convince him that it's funny and that all he sees is lasagna. So which is it?
I thought it was pretty obvious he is specifying a single strip from a friend who constantly sends him loads of PA strips doesn't feel are very funny. I thought this was obvious because he wrote
"Come on, dude, you've got to admit that this one is pretty funny" Josh says after emailing me yet another PA strip.
Which isn't saying the entire comic is bad. It's complaining about a guy who insists the entire comic is funny.

[RickH]

I never understood why they've been criticisized for not telling stories. Far Side, one of, if not the, greatest comic of all time didn't. I'm not saying they are that good, just that it's a choice of form, not substance, and really isn't a criticism in and of itself.

IIRC, Scott McCloud made the distinction between a cartoon and a comic by defining the first as a single drawing and the second as a series of juxtaposed images that tell a story. Thus, The Far Side was almost always a cartoon (allowing for the occasional split panels), while Peanuts was almost always a comic (allowing for the occasional single panel early on before Schulz locked into the 4-panel format).

When PA tries to tell a story, usually with numbered sequences of comic strips or the occasional "Sunday paper" style multipanel strip, they fall flat. Critical things happen off-panel. The panels fail to tell a logical sequence of story and action. I could link some examples, but things just got busy...

[Kunikos]

I'd rather read Penny Arcade than PC Gamer.

Reading three panel doodles is sure taxing on your brain; I'd imagine all those WORDS in a magazine might make your head explode, eh?

When PA tries to tell a story, usually with numbered sequences of comic strips or the occasional "Sunday paper" style multipanel strip, they fall flat. Critical things happen off-panel. The panels fail to tell a logical sequence of story and action. I could link some examples, but things just got busy...

The problem with many, many PA strips is that they require such a high level of contextualization that isn't even explained in the comic strip. If you have to write a dissertation to explain why a comic strip makes any sense at all, then it fails at being funny so badly that it makes you cry. Also, third panel throw-away non-sequitors aren't punch-lines no matter how hard you try.

[Thomas Wilde]

It's pretty telling of just how far in their shadow Kurtz is that he can wear a shirt with "I'M A HUGE IDIOT" printed on in block letters, try to shit in his hand to throw it at PC Gamer (but forget he's still wearing pants when he tries)...and the discussion is overwhelmingly about Penny Arcade.

While it's entirely possible and even probable that Kurtz is just standing up for his webcomic buddies, Kurtz's public persona is often that of an intense self-promoter. He does tend to throw himself headlong into any public debate PA inspires, which, again, looks like either self-promotion or friend defense depending on how you're inclined to perceive Kurtz.

The thing I don't get about him is why he's bothering to provoke a rivalry with PA at all when the two of them couldn't be more dissimilar enterprises. PVP is only a gaming-based webcomic about five percent of the time, and spends the rest of its existence being a light romantic comedy with a lot of general nerd humor. Kurtz wants to be a cartoonist; Holkins is mostly an essayist while "cartoonist" is just one of the hats Krahulik's wearing.

[Mordrak]

When PA tries to tell a story, usually with numbered sequences of comic strips or the occasional "Sunday paper" style multipanel strip, they fall flat. Critical things happen off-panel. The panels fail to tell a logical sequence of story and action. I could link some examples, but things just got busy...

I'd love to see some examples when you have time. I don't necessarily think things happening off panel are a bad thing, especially since that's often part of the joke. But the distinction between cartoon and comic I think is a pretty small and relatively unimportant one, especially when we are talking the Sunday comic/cartoon variety.

[AaronSofaer]

Reading three panel doodles is sure taxing on your brain; I'd imagine all those WORDS in a magazine might make your head explode, eh?


I think the issue here isn't the head explosions from the magazine verbosity. Rather, the issue is your inability to appreciate any form of humor or quality, and that you hide that inability in disdain and a propensity for reading trash. Thus, when questioned, you can use your powerful Plan B; "I can read, hur hur!" you cry, as the poor Kindergarten student you were taunting breaks into tears.

[jpinard]

I enjoy Vede's humor a lot, and would be disappointed if he stopped trying to be funny in his work.

Ironically, a long time ago when I was much more of a prick than I am now, I sent a letter to the editor about Vede trying to be too macho/funny and it was lame. Now, I'd be heartbroken if he changed to become "serious".

We have many dry, serious, (sometimes angry) reviewers all over the place - and adding a little humor and silliness to our hobby is nice.

[MikeSolita]

He's the freakin' EIC, he should have ultimate or at least majority say on what the cover should be. On the masthead his name is at the very top.


...I wonder for how long. I couldn't find their 2006 numbers, but the 2005 paid circulation was down 20% and total revenue down 22% from the year before. Pretty big hits for a magazine their size. :(

And I don't really see their Penny Arcade cover selling very well against GFW's World of Warcraft cover this month. (Though who knows -- maybe the PA faithful will bail Vederman out despite the editor's letter.)

[Gary Whitta]

Why does GFW have WoW on their cover? Are they breaking a story (upcoming expansion?) or is it something else?

[Jason Cross]

I enjoy Vede's humor a lot, and would be disappointed if he stopped trying to be funny in his work.

Ironically, a long time ago when I was much more of a prick than I am now, I sent a letter to the editor about Vede trying to be too macho/funny and it was lame. Now, I'd be heartbroken if he changed to become "serious".

We have many dry, serious, (sometimes angry) reviewers all over the place - and adding a little humor and silliness to our hobby is nice.

I agree. I think Greg can be a doofus sometimes (and I say that as an even bigger dork so I feel safe making that claim) and the sort of frat boy type humor he sometimes goes to isn't my style. But I rather enjoy the approach in general and the insistence that "hey, we're supposed to be having some fun here, right?" I don't want the whole magazine to be like that, but I like Greg and I got no problem with his personal style. And like Whitta mentioned here, I think as much as he hams it up sometimes, he's very serious about the industry.

I didn't think this editorial came off as an attempt to be funny. I didn't read it and think "Oh he's trying to be funny but it's not working." It seemed like a serious "what the hell is all this PA hoopla about?" thing.

Again, a valid opinion and even worth a column...in any issue other than the one where you're running a major story (cover no less!) on their game.

[forgeforsaken]

I'd love to see some examples when you have time. I don't necessarily think things happening off panel are a bad thing, especially since that's often part of the joke. But the distinction between cartoon and comic I think is a pretty small and relatively unimportant one, especially when we are talking the Sunday comic/cartoon variety. Pretty much look at any of the Cardboard Tube Samurai stuff for examples of what he's talking about.

[Sparky]

http://www.phobe.com/veederman.gif

[MikeSolita]

Why does GFW have WoW on their cover? Are they breaking a story (upcoming expansion?) or is it something else?

It's a sly bit of editorial packaging. It's billed as "World of Warcraft Secrets" or something on the cover. They sent a writer to Blizzard to hang out, ask the developers about their favorite zones/instances/classes/etc in the game, some mini-profiles of key Blizzard players, and a little preview of the Black Temple patch and some vague down-the-road forecasting about the next expansion and future content patches.

There's no real news peg -- it's just a big info dump for WoW addicts. I imagine it'll sell decently on newstand.

Edit: That's, of course, assuming WoW players will leave their homes to notice the new issue on sale. :P

[Matt Perkins]

It was a decent read, if low on secrets.

[Lake]

This thread needs more Sparky.

[Alan Au]

This thread needs more Sparky.
Every thread needs more Sparky.

- Alan

[Sparky]

Oh stop...if my fanbase gets too big, Vederman will write an editorial saying I suck as much as Ziggy, Marmaduke, or Prince Valiant.

[RepoMan]

Garfield is horrifyingly grammatical, DUNT U KNOW NUTHIN SPARKEE?????

Also, because it hasn't come up in the thread yet, and apropos of Zombie Jim Davis:

Garfield Is Dead, And Has Been For Years (http://garfieldisdead.ytmnd.com/)

[Lum]

Oh stop...if my fanbase gets too big, Vederman will write an editorial saying I suck as much as Ziggy, Marmaduke, or Prince Valiant.

You say that now. But have you seen the four special commemorative covers?

http://www.brokentoys.org/images/sparkymag1.jpg http://www.brokentoys.org/images/sparkymag2.jpg http://www.brokentoys.org/images/sparkymag3.jpg http://www.brokentoys.org/images/sparkymag4.jpg

[Matthew Gallant]

You say that now. But have you seen the four special commemorative covers?

[img src="http://www.brokentoys.org/images/sparkymag1.jpg"] [img src="http://www.brokentoys.org/images/sparkymag2.jpg"] [img src="http://www.brokentoys.org/images/sparkymag3.jpg"] [img src="http://www.brokentoys.org/images/sparkymag4.jpg"]
http://www.truemeaningoflife.com/images/fail.jpg

[Lum]

You are so mean.

[Matthew Gallant]

It's OK, learn2bbcode

[Athryn]

I LOLed ... at both, actually.

[Alan Dunkin]

...I wonder for how long. I couldn't find their 2006 numbers, but the 2005 paid circulation was down 20% and total revenue down 22% from the year before. Pretty big hits for a magazine their size. :(

And I don't really see their Penny Arcade cover selling very well against GFW's World of Warcraft cover this month. (Though who knows -- maybe the PA faithful will bail Vederman out despite the editor's letter.)

Then again, next month (as they say) will be SC2 and that'll sell really well.

--- Alan

[Alan Au]

Even bad comics can be entertaining (http://marmadukeexplained.blogspot.com/) when properly (http://www.dougshaw.com/garfield.html) presented (http://www.truthandbeautybombs.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=4997).

- Alan

[Sparky]

You say that now. But have you seen the four special commemorative covers?
OMG LOL ROFL

http://www.just-frag.it/fun/old/lollercoaster.gif

ps: the one with the mustache will be the most collectable.

[MyNameIsWill]

All publicity is good publicity.

[worm]

Even bad comics can be entertaining (http://marmadukeexplained.blogspot.com/) when properly (http://www.dougshaw.com/garfield.html) presented (http://www.truthandbeautybombs.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=4997).

- Alan
This link feels apropriate (http://animehistory.comicgenesis.com/d/20040329.html).

[Zarathustra]

Wow, comparing a guy with wide mainstream commercial success as a cartoonist and business book author to guys with poor sequential storytelling skills who can't make their points without gay jokes and using the word "fuck" as a universal dialouge element.

Yeah, that works.

Amen.

I saw Vede's editorial as a stir-the-pot PR piece, myself, designed to be controversial.

[Ed Solomon]

You say that now. But have you seen the four special commemorative covers?
Arrgh, that loser Vede. How dare he leave out zombie, cowgirl Sparky. Is there no limit to his iniquities?

http://www.phobe.com/crap/top.jpg

[mutt]

...guys with poor sequential storytelling skills who can't make their points without gay jokes and using the word "fuck" as a universal dialouge element.
"Le mot dialouge n'a pas été trouvé." Fuck.

[RepoMan]

He follows himself up. (http://www.pcgamer.com/archives/2007/06/so_about_my_pen.html) Bottom line: it's all good and love is in the air.

[Hanzii]

He follows himself up. (http://www.pcgamer.com/archives/2007/06/so_about_my_pen.html) Bottom line: it's all good and love is in the air.


Clearly, my Letter wasn’t written for the hardcore fans. The hardcore are either going to buy the issue, or they'll wait for a friend to buy it and tell them about it, or they'll read an illegal scan online.


Heh, I don't read PC Gamer but now I just might buy it (if I can locate the US edition).
For the record I still find Classic Garfield funnier than 99% of PA strips. So I'm one of them.

[RickH]

He follows himself up. (http://www.pcgamer.com/archives/2007/06/so_about_my_pen.html) Bottom line: it's all good and love is in the air.

That's what he should have said in the first place. But there really wasn't space for that.

[TriggerHappy]

The follow really clears this up. I still think the original column is too much "I don't get the love" and not enough "But the game looks kick ass anyway"

[forgeforsaken]

"But the game looks kick ass anyway"

It does? Everything I've seen so far has looked abysmal. Ok, the cut scenes have a nice 2d art style going on, but I don't play games for those, maybe that's just me.

[Mordrak]

It does? Everything I've seen so far has looked abysmal. Ok, the cut scenes have a nice 2d art style going on, but I don't play games for those, maybe that's just me.

The first trailer, other than the opening, did look pretty poor, well other than Fruit Fucker. The second trailer looks much better, mostly due to editing. I'd prefer they just do a 2D old-school adventure, but hopefully it still has time to sharpen up.

[Alan Au]

Don't worry, they're almost done with level 3, and then they're going to tighten up the graphics.

- Alan

[Zarathustra]

He follows himself up. (http://www.pcgamer.com/archives/2007/06/so_about_my_pen.html) Bottom line: it's all good and love is in the air.

Planned PR, I tell ya. From both sides, manufactured hype.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

I'm totally accepting that your preference is cum, and I admire you for still enjoying the taste.

Even by your standards, you're pretty far off your game here. I suggested that you were a predictable fool and a hapless, servile puppet. I couched this in terms that in part had a literal meaning which would associate you with an act often performed for reasons relating to a sexual fetish that, under the circumstances, could be gay.

Out of all this, you throw back the gay part, and completely artlessly. You know, worm, I didn't get to say this at your party last night, but I was impressed with your eloquent speech in defense of slavery. Some might not appreciate the way you made slaves dance through burning tar to spell out your key points, but I thought it was an embellishment that brought a touch of spectacle to what might otherwise have been a dull evening. But did I say dull? Of course, no evening could be dull when following as that evening did an excellent repast of your best dogshit, harvested from champion greyhounds and served European-style from the flagstones of your Old World ballroom floor. However, I was so overwhelmed by the splendor and pageantry of the cabaret boys with their G. Gordon Liddy motif, and naturally by the sum total of all the delights of the event, that I only thought of it as I was passing through the Liberace Gallery on the way to the Bidet Room, and by the time I had relieved myself and recalled the need to congratulate you, your Costa Rican mancubines were already bringing in the donkeys for the late festivities. As I had an early day following and did not wish to disrupt the proceedings, I'm afraid I showed myself out without paying my respects, and it has preyed on my mind until now. Who would have thought that I would run into you here, in the Mac games aisle (well, I say aisle, but it's really more of a shelf) at Fry's? Is the Full House-themed Fry's your favorite, too? We have so much in common!

Keep fighting the good fight for the lads in purple, you tepid marionette.

[Quitch]

The first trailer, other than the opening, did look pretty poor, well other than Fruit Fucker. The second trailer looks much better, mostly due to editing. I'd prefer they just do a 2D old-school adventure, but hopefully it still has time to sharpen up.

Amen. I really enjoyed the opening 2D bit, then it suddenly turned into this hugely meh looking 3D thing. When your art style is large part of your appeal, why abandon that by going 3D?

I would have loved to see a 2D adventure game in the PA style.

EDIT: Second trailer is a lot slicker though, you're right. The written humour was pretty much spot on :)

[Mordrak]

Amen. I really enjoyed the opening 2D bit, then it suddenly turned into this hugely meh looking 3D thing. When your art style is large part of your appeal, why abandon that by going 3D?

I would have loved to see a 2D adventure game in the PA style.

The thought of drawing all the frames for a 2D only game probably killed any chance of that. Still, I can see why they'd want to do a more action oriented game too, especially with how much creative violence is in the comic. It's nice to hear they are definitely going to continue to polish up the graphics. :)

Edit: Just watched the second trailer again and I love the create-a-player idea. :) Though, that's a given with me. They need to add a little bounce to the characters' hair too, but still pretty sweet looking.

[Jay Adan]

He follows himself up. (http://www.pcgamer.com/archives/2007/06/so_about_my_pen.html) Bottom line: it's all good and love is in the air.

Funny how nobody on either side of this discussion got THAT out of this editorial.

[worm]

Even by your standards, you're pretty far off your game here. I suggested that you were a predictable fool and a hapless, servile puppet. I couched this in terms that in part had a literal meaning which would associate you with an act often performed for reasons relating to a sexual fetish that, under the circumstances, could be gay.

Out of all this, you throw back the gay part, and completely artlessly. You know, worm, I didn't get to say this at your party last night, but I was impressed with your eloquent speech in defense of slavery. Some might not appreciate the way you made slaves dance through burning tar to spell out your key points, but I thought it was an embellishment that brought a touch of spectacle to what might otherwise have been a dull evening. But did I say dull? Of course, no evening could be dull when following as that evening did an excellent repast of your best dogshit, harvested from champion greyhounds and served European-style from the flagstones of your Old World ballroom floor. However, I was so overwhelmed by the splendor and pageantry of the cabaret boys with their G. Gordon Liddy motif, and naturally by the sum total of all the delights of the event, that I only thought of it as I was passing through the Liberace Gallery on the way to the Bidet Room, and by the time I had relieved myself and recalled the need to congratulate you, your Costa Rican mancubines were already bringing in the donkeys for the late festivities. As I had an early day following and did not wish to disrupt the proceedings, I'm afraid I showed myself out without paying my respects, and it has preyed on my mind until now. Who would have thought that I would run into you here, in the Mac games aisle (well, I say aisle, but it's really more of a shelf) at Fry's? Is the Full House-themed Fry's your favorite, too? We have so much in common!

Keep fighting the good fight for the lads in purple, you tepid marionette.
EDIT: Oh wait. I was asked not to treat this like Caltrops, even if everyone else is.

You're all fooey.

Funny how nobody on either side of this discussion got THAT out of this editorial.
I got the bit about him not hating Penny Arcade.

[jpinard]

Don't worry, they're almost done with level 3, and then they're going to tighten up the graphics.

- Alan

Hehehe! I wonder if I'm the only other person to get that reference...

[Arioch]

No. It's on the internet. We're all huge nerds. QED.

[Shadari]

Hehehe! I wonder if I'm the only other person to get that reference...
I wonder if you're the only one who thought that he'd be the only one to get that reference. ;)

[Quitch]

Well I don't, so someone explain :)

[Talisker]

Well I don't, so someone explain :)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=spSGNMJhWV0

[Quitch]

LOL!!! Well, at least I feel okay not getting it.

[RobotPants]

I've watched that commercial 100 times and it still amazes me in many, many different ways.

[Hump]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=spSGNMJhWV0

"and my Mom said I wouldn't get ANYWHERE playing videogames...."

My mom said no such thing...... because she's DEAD!

[metta]

This is a good example of why those fellas at Penny Arcade have my respect:

At last year's PAX, we announced a ten thousand dollar scholarship that would go out to a reader. We've been sitting on our top three for a long time, unable to complete the process.

The Penny Arcade Scholarship is a good idea on paper, and it's also a good idea in real life, but as an act one must perform it is terrible. It doesn't feel like you are selecting a person so much as you are denying hundreds of people support they desperately need. I'm sorry to complain about it, but I thought I was engaged in awesome behavior, and instead I've seen the enormity of our task.

Michael Stein of USC, we choose you. We chose you from many. Now earn it.

They try to do good in the world, and they consistently put their money where their mouths are.