IronMan and buggy games

[AaronSofaer]

If you have a buggy, imbalanced, or un-QA'd game, don't put IronMan mode into it.

See Wizardry 8 for a perfect example.

In the last couple of weeks I started three different IronMan games.


In one of them, I fell through the world and died.
In the second, I ran into a group of level 11 Juggernauts just outside of Arnika that added onto a fight and brutally destroyed my party.
In the third, in the willow shrine in Trynton, I fell off the little bridge into the pool of water... from which I couldn't escape.


... what the fuck?

Not playing IronMan in Wiz8 again, that's for sure.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Are we talking Osbourne or Stark? I'm confused.

[AaronSofaer]

... now I'm confused.

[Hetzer]

If you have a buggy, imbalanced, or un-QA'd game, don't put IronMan mode into it.

See Wizardry 8 for a perfect example.

In the last couple of weeks I started three different IronMan games.


In one of them, I fell through the world and died.
In the second, I ran into a group of level 11 Juggernauts just outside of Arnika that added onto a fight and brutally destroyed my party.
In the third, in the willow shrine in Trynton, I fell off the little bridge into the pool of water... from which I couldn't escape.


... what the fuck?

Not playing IronMan in Wiz8 again, that's for sure.

You know even in Wiz8 you can run.

I never dropped through the world, how is it done?

and yeah bad luck with the pool, so dont fall from the bridge ;)

All in all yes ironman is a fearful experience in wiz 8, i believe i will start a new one now....

[AaronSofaer]

How to Drop Through the World in Wizardry 8, by Aaron Sofaer.

Step One: Make an IronMan Game.
Step Two: Get to Trynton.
Step Three: Get on the elevator up to Upper Branches.
Step Four: Pull on the weight.
Step Five: Watch as your characters fall through the still-whole bottom of the elevator and plummets to their deaths.


In Wiz8 you can run, but Juggernauts are faster than your party. I got to run about two rounds before all eight of my guys were dead.

[McBain]

Despite the fact that ToEE was probably the buggiest mess I've played in about eight years, I really enjoyed the IronMan mode.*

I enjoyed it so much that I finished it.

Twice.


*To be fair, 99% of the "game over" bugs in ToEE were the "crash to desktop" kind, and the game didn't delete your IronMan save if you crashed.

[Nathan Phoenix]

Yeah, I lost many a hardcore diablo 2 character to battle.net lag.

[Midnight Son]

If you have a buggy, imbalanced, or un-QA'd game, don't put IronMan mode into it.

See Wizardry 8 for a perfect example.

In the last couple of weeks I started three different IronMan games.


In one of them, I fell through the world and died.
In the second, I ran into a group of level 11 Juggernauts just outside of Arnika that added onto a fight and brutally destroyed my party.
In the third, in the willow shrine in Trynton, I fell off the little bridge into the pool of water... from which I couldn't escape.


... what the fuck?

Not playing IronMan in Wiz8 again, that's for sure.

Finally learning not to play Iron Man after the third time it messed up: Priceless!

[BobJustBob]

Why can't you just enforce Ironman mode upon yourself? When you die, delete your saves. Unless it was really truly the game's fault (I don't think getting your ass kicked by level 11 juggernauts counts) in which case, don't.

[AndrewM]

... now I'm confused.
Iron Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man) or Iron Man (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=osbourne+iron+man&btnG=Google+Search).

[stusser]

Why can't you just enforce Ironman mode upon yourself? When you die, delete your saves.
I know, everybody always says that, but it's just not the same.

Thanks for the thread, I'm going to add wiz8 to my list of games to replay. It's been a couple of yeard.

[Rock8man]

Why can't you just enforce Ironman mode upon yourself? When you die, delete your saves. Unless it was really truly the game's fault (I don't think getting your ass kicked by level 11 juggernauts counts) in which case, don't.

Just curious Bob, do you actually know anyone with this kind of self-discipline? I certainly don't, and I would really envy the discipline of such a person.

I play with a group of friends who tend to be really hardcore about their games. If there's an Ironman or Hardcore mode, they will always choose to play that instead of the regular mode. If there are different difficulty levels, they always start with the hardest difficulty first. I'm more moderate myself. I usually start on normal difficulty if there's a easy or hard difficulty present too. I also don't always jump at the chance at doing things in Ironman mode. For example, in our group of friends, I'm the only one who made a "Bronzeman" hero instead of an ironman hero in Warlords Battlecry 2.

But I've noticed over the years that we just don't enjoy games without Ironman mode as much. Diablo 2 without hardcore feels..... pointless. Lokust, I can't even believe anyone would play Hardcore characters on anything other than LAN. I just can't stand the idea of my hardcore character dying because of lag. In Warlords Battlecry, your hero is preserved from match to match, but if he's an Ironman hero, he can die permanently, but also earn double the experience that a normal hero earns. So its not just the thrill of playing Ironman, it's also the speed with which he levels that makes it a better option in WBC.

When a game like Titan's Quest comes out, and we face the prospect of playing a game without a hardcore/Ironman mode, I always bring up the possibility that you brought up: why don't we just self-regulate and not play with the same character if we die? And the truth is, we just can't. None of my friends, not even the most hardcore guy I know, has the self-discipline to police himself in these matters. If the game doesn't do it for us, we can't do it ourselves.

So I was wondering, do you think we're anomalies? Or do you think the hundreds, if not thousands of gamers who enjoy Hardcore/Ironman characters have the self-discipline to create their own version of Hardcore characters? Do you know any yourself?

I personally tend to think that most people are like us. For one thing, hardcore mode should be in some way superior. In Diablo 2, it provides a thrill normal mode doesn't provide because taking away fear of death takes away a lot of the fun of the game for us, and because of expansions and patches, surviving in Hardcore mode and finishing the game with a character on Hell difficulty has become a real possibility for us over the years.

In WBC2 and 3, having a hero level up faster makes the gameplay so much better. It sucks to lose a hero, but on hardcore mode you can build up a hero to a high level so much faster. I've tried playing Normal characters in WBC3, and it just isn't as fun, because the pace of leveling up isn't as good. I liked the option in WBC2 of a "Bronzeman" where you lose all progress in that level when you die.

In contrast, I certainly realize that these hardcore modes aren't for everyone. My brother likes playing games set on the easiest difficulty, and his perfect first person shooter is Prey, where you can never really die. He also hates any open ended game. He hates making choices in a game. He loved Oblivion until he came upon the exit of the opening dungeon. Suddenly he could go anywhere, do anything, so he stopped playing. He can't stand games that don't hand-hold him and take him down a certain path. He hates having choices, and I can respect that, because he plays games as stress relief from work, where he makes tough choices all the time. To him, making choices in a game which he's using for recreation is a nightmare.

[AaronSofaer]

Why can't you just enforce Ironman mode upon yourself? When you die, delete your saves. Unless it was really truly the game's fault (I don't think getting your ass kicked by level 11 juggernauts counts) in which case, don't.

This is going to sound stupid, but I played IronMan in Wizardry 8 because it'll save the game every time you enter combat / leave combat. So any time I want to save, I just hit spacebar twice.

[BobJustBob]

Just curious Bob, do you actually know anyone with this kind of self-discipline? I certainly don't, and I would really envy the discipline of such a person.

I don't know anyone who likes to play on ironman, so I guess technically not. But if you're asking if I know people who like to play a game a certain way and have the self-discipline to actually play the game that way even if they're not forced to, the answer is yes, quite a few.

[Fooey]

I haven't had any bugs of note, but I wouldn't personally ever try Wizardry 8 on Ironman since it's just a hard game with a lot of combat, a decent proportion of which you have a reasonable chance of losing, particularly if you happen to get caught out in the open and are unable to back yourself into a corner to prevent getting surrounded. I'm also currently replaying this game and would definitely recommend it highly. It's a great game that still holds up well. The graphics stink, but you get used to them pretty quickly. I'm playing on expert and doing a lot of quicksaving and a not insignificant amount of quickloading when I occasionally run into opponents that completely kick my ass. One thing I like about the game is that it has leveled monsters within limits and does it much better than Oblivion. Eventually you reach the point where you pretty much dominate the monsters in earlier areas, but in areas where you are still not that tough for when you level up the game will quickly spring some very hard wandering monsters at you. And there are still some areas that are not impossible for me, but very tough at my current level.

[AaronSofaer]

Fooey, my parties generally only have two casters, one of whom will be a Priest with pretty solid HP/AC. Sure, if they get in range to start beating on my Fairy Mage, he's in trouble, but...

... since I decided to cheese it, in my new game I started everyone on Ninjas or Monks and grinded their Stealth up. Everyone has 90+ except for my Mage, who has 100.

The base AC is incredibly sexy (my Mage has an average AC of 15 in his starting gear) but even more important, monsters a lot of the time can't see you, and will simply defend rather than attack.

Because of the composition of my party, I can put one person on each edge and three in the front, with semi-tanks in the center ready to switch out for those taking too much damage. I also have a lot of distributed healing; Vi has heals, my Ninja has heals, my Ranger has heals, and my Samurai has heals.

I fought those same level 11 Juggernauts with my current party, and man, it was so much more fun. I was too low-level to do reliable damage, so I had to pop a bunch of Superman potions and go through two Magic Nectars on my Mage, but I tanked for a long, long time.

The only people who ever really take a lot of damage are .... Miles and Vi, the two people without 90+ stealth. :D

My general strat, fight-wise, is start out in the "surprise round" with a dual cone (Whipping Rocks or Magic Missiles from my Mage, and Whirlwind from my Priest at the moment, but that'll change). I have Vi, Priest, and Mage in the center (remember, Vi uses polearms, which means she can melee from the center). Gadgeteer and Ranger on the wings, and Miles the Rogue in the back, with Samurai and Ninja in the front. When people get too hurt, I'll switch them into the center in exchange for Vi or Priest, and save my mana for people who are unconscious/paralyzed or being caster-trained.

A word of advice: Wiz 8 is a game much easier to play in Continuous, or Real-Time, combat. It's still turn-based, but you can give commands up to the moment your character goes. This gives you much greater flexibility as far as retargetting and healing with non-dedicated healers.

Also, don't cast red spells. Especially don't cast red AoE damage spells when your party is half-dead. :D

[Fooey]

I'm playing with a rogue, fighter, and samurai in the front, vi and my own valkerie on the wings, a ranger in the back, and bishop in the middle. Vi's the only NPC I use since the others I find to be too annoying to deal with their various areas they won't go to and general suckiness. At the start, the bishop was a priest, so I had essentially no offensive magic for a long time, which was a bit of a struggle. I was also casting a lot of pretty much useless low level and low power mage spells with my samurai to get his magic skills up, so he wasn't contributing much. Now my characters are up around level 14 and 15 and they're starting to kick ass. The priest turned bishop has finally gotten some powerful area effect spells, the samurai is competent in both fighting and magic, the rogue almost never misses in melee, and the ranger is getting increasingly frequent instant kills with blunderbuss. My fighter for some reason (other than his huge amount of health that makes him effectively invincible) is the real weak link at this point. He misses more often than not. As a lizard his intelligence is so damn low that his close combat (god knows why intelligence is one of the controlling traits for close combat) hasn't gotten to the level it needs to be yet to be effective.