A moral dilemma

[jeffd]

I went out and bought a Nintendo DS this week, and a bunch of games.

Got home, looked at the receipt and the total on it seemed way low. Closer examination shows that the clerk did not ring me up for the DS.

I have a real dilemma now. On one hand SCORE I got a free DS! On the other hand I like to think of myself as an honest and basically decent person and this is sort of a test of that. On the other hand - Free DS!

What would you guys do?

[Adam Altmann]

I suppose this would be determined by how well you handle guilt.

You could rationalize it by saying, "Hey, BigFacelessCorporation doesn't really need my $100 (or howevermuch they cost) anyway. Oh, and Free DS!" Also, I'm sure the cost of fuckup-per-week by mongoloid-worker is taken into account.

On the other hand, if you're going to be feeling like a shit every time you play it, I'd go fork over the dinero.

[Dirt]

If you do not get a receipt with your order, your order is free.

[SlyFrog]

Fuck the pooo-leeese.

Seriously though, if you take the thing back and tell them you did not pay for it, I bet you get the wierdest looks ever.

Yet strangely enough, I would probably do that. After a period of introspection.

I wouldn't worry at all about the cashier or stock boy who is accused of theft, loses their job, and has to prostitute themselves to survive if you don't return it.

[Raife]

Call them and tell them what happened, then casually add that if they don't meet your demands in three days, you're going to blow up the Earth.

[Patrick]

Fuck the pooo-leeese.

Seriously though, if you take the thing back and tell them you did not pay for it, I bet you get the wierdest looks ever.

Yet strangely enough, I would probably do that. After a period of introspection.

I wouldn't worry at all about the cashier or stock boy who is accused of theft, loses their job, and has to prostitute themselves to survive if you don't return it.

Actually they don't know what happened to it. So no one gets fired. However if you bring it to thier atention that the cashier screwed up, then someone will likely get fired. So think of not telling them as saving someones job. ;)

[jeffd]

SlyFrog: I'm pretty sure no one can get in trouble over this. I have a friend who used to work retail and he says there's no way they track inventory close enough to identify the guy who screwed up.

[jeffd]

Wow do you really think they'll come down on the cashier if I go in with the thing?

I hadn't even imagined that angle. :(

[Coca Cola Zero]

If the company noticed that they double charged you, would they bother to fix the mistake if you didn't complain about it? Probably not. So fuck 'em, free DS!

[ScurvyPig]

On the other hand I like to think of myself as an honest and basically decent person and this is sort of a test of that.


Pay them or you fail the test.

[JPR]

You should go tell them.

[Patrick]

Keep it. And the next time you go out to eat become a big tipper. This way everyone wins except the store.

[Ch. Hasslbauer]

I have a real dilemma now. On one hand SCORE I got a free DS! On the other hand I like to think of myself as an honest and basically decent person and this is sort of a test of that. On the other hand - Free DS!

What would you guys do?
Basically it depends on how much your self-assessment as an honest and decent person is worth to you monetarily. If its worth to you is outweighed by the cost of a DS, so be it.

[Lunch of Kong]

Wow do you really think they'll come down on the cashier if I go in with the thing?

I hadn't even imagined that angle. :(


In all seriousness, yes, he'll get into big trouble and will probably get fired.

[SlyFrog]

Wow do you really think they'll come down on the cashier if I go in with the thing?

I hadn't even imagined that angle. :(

No, I'm sorry man, I was just joking. I wouldn't worry about that. They could come down on the cashier if there was a receipt for it and the cash was not in the drawer, but if it did not get rung up at all, nothing like that should happen.

Sorry, I was just having fun. I do not think you have to worry about anyone in the store; it is basically just an ethics question for you personally.

EDIT: Damn you Wong! :)

[JPR]

He might be fired if he has done this before, but I don't see a first time occurence like this leading to termination. So if it's his first time, no big deal. If it's not, then he probably deserves to be fired.

Go tell them.

[Lunch of Kong]

No, I'm sorry man, I was just joking.

I'm not. He'll get put on probation at the very least. Loss prevention and all that.

I once pointed out a mistake that an Austin Fry's clerk was making while processing my return that would have ended up with me begin $200 richer. He was very thankful for me pointing out the mistake, because if it had gone through he'd be fired. "Fired? For a mistake like that that ANYONE could have made?" "Yeah. They'll fire you for even less."

[Drastic]

The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over but it can't. Not without your help. But you're not helping.

I'm confused by this not being a poll.

[DeepT]

It is a pretty black and white issue. It is wrong to keep it for free. You already knew this before you asked.

The real question you are asking is to quantify the amount of 'wrong' of keeping this item and is this amount of wrong, judged by your peers sufficient enough to make you feel like a bad person for keeping this item for free.

Justifications of keeping the item because it really protects the cashier, are really there just to make you feel better and trying to convince yourself that you are doing 'good', or perhaps balancing the karmic books by saving some other person some problems by keeping the item you desire to have for free. No matter how you spin it, it really is all about you and not really about helping some cashier out.

[charmtrap]

Weigh the way you'll feel if someone gets fired over it, versus how you'll feel about Large Corporation X having $20 less in their pocket, and then naturally choose to score a free DS.

[CounterMeasure]

Maybe you were an unknowing contestant on a new Fox gameshow called "Are You More Honest Than a Fifth Grader"?

No prize money for you!

[Bullhajj]

You can't make a mistake. No matter what you decide, you'll get another chance at this, somewhere down the road.

[Ergo]

Wow do you really think they'll come down on the cashier if I go in with the thing?

I hadn't even imagined that angle. :( Well, if you take it back to the same cashier, no one will be the wiser. :)

[Patrick]

I'm not. He'll get put on probation at the very least. Loss prevention and all that.

I once pointed out a mistake that an Austin Fry's clerk was making while processing my return that would have ended up with me begin $200 richer. He was very thankful for me pointing out the mistake, because if it had gone through he'd be fired. "Fired? For a mistake like that that ANYONE could have made?" "Yeah. They'll fire you for even less."

If I was his boss, If he was an otherwise good employee he gets a warning. If not.... Well even nice wonderful Patrick would Fire his worthless ass.

[jeffd]

Ergo that was kind of what I was thinking. I think I'll go in there next weekend and try to find the same dude. If I can't I'll just ask to talk to a manager, explain what happened, and tell him that since I don't want anyone to get in trouble or lose their job I'd just like him to charge me for a DS.

[Flowers]

Go there naked and do a fire dance.

Wait, what was the question?

[TheRock]

I bought some socks and a motorcycle helmet once. The cashier rang up only the socks. I stood there for a good 20 seconds not saying a word or doing anything, kind of shocked. I walked out of there with a free helmet....until the security dweebs came out after me....busted....but the judge spent a bunch of time looking in his judge book as I told him I had no intent of stealing the helmet and had more than enough money in my wallet....he said I possibly could take it to a jury trial and win but that it'd be cheaper to pay the $400 and plead guilty.

As for the DS, I'd go back and pay for it.

[Rimbo]

I went out and bought a Nintendo DS this week, and a bunch of games.

Got home, looked at the receipt and the total on it seemed way low. Closer examination shows that the clerk did not ring me up for the DS.

I have a real dilemma now. On one hand SCORE I got a free DS! On the other hand I like to think of myself as an honest and basically decent person and this is sort of a test of that. On the other hand - Free DS!

What would you guys do?

I would go back and pay for it.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Go there naked and do a fire dance.

Wait, what was the question?
Does it even matter? I'm hard-pressed to come up with a question that can't be answered correctly with that.


"My girlfriend's parents hate me, but I want to ask them for her hand in marriage. What should I do?"

"I have an unpaid parking ticket that has turned into a bench warrant. I guess I need to go to the court house, but how should I handle it?"

"I have a date with a chick I met on craigslist. We're meeting for drinks. What should I wear, and how can I make impression on her immediately?"

"I have to sing in my church choir for our Christmas pagent. Any tips?"

[Patrick]

On the other hand. How many games do you have to buy before you fail to notice the bill is what $100 low?

[jeffd]

Patrick: Six games. Also honestly it's a bad habit but I tend to speed through the debit card entry process - pin #, enter, no, yes. I don't really pay attention to what it says my total is.

[Bullhajj]

Does it even matter? I'm hard-pressed to come up with a question that can't be answered correctly with that.


"My girlfriend's parents hate me, but I want to ask them for her hand in marriage. What should I do?"

"I have an unpaid parking ticket that has turned into a bench warrant. I guess I need to go to the court house, but how should I handle it?"

"I have a date with a chick I met on craigslist. We're meeting for drinks. What should I wear, and how can I make impression on her immediately?"

"I have to sing in my church choir for our Christmas pagent. Any tips?"

I made a sailing date with a bunch of dudes on the internet but then I got a bench warrant from my ex-girlfriend or something. What should I do?

FIRE DANCE! FIRE DANCE! FIRE DANCE!

[Patrick]

Patrick: Six games. Also honestly it's a bad habit but I tend to speed through the debit card entry process - pin #, enter, no, yes. I don't really pay attention to what it says my total is.

I allways pay attention to it. I've been overcharged before. So I probably would have said something right then and there.

[jeffd]

Yeah I know it's a bad habit that will eventually burn me (if it hasn't already). Either way thats tangential to the point at hand.

[Shadarr]

Patrick: Six games. Also honestly it's a bad habit but I tend to speed through the debit card entry process - pin #, enter, no, yes. I don't really pay attention to what it says my total is.
I'm pretty bad about that too. I always check when I get home and enter it in my spreadsheet, but by then it's probably too late.

[jeffd]

shadarr: That's exactly why I noticed - I was plugging the transaction into MS Money.

[Patrick]

Yeah I know it's a bad habit that will eventually burn me (if it hasn't already). Either way thats tangential to the point at hand.


Its a tough call. I believe Id go back and pay for it.

[ElGuapo]

Dude, if you take this thing back and go thusly:

"I was here a few days ago and I bought this but you didn't charge me for it".

They are going to think thusly:

"How do we know we even sold it to you?" I bet there is no circumstance for this. There is no "forgot to charge customer" code. What are they going to do, scan it in? Oh yeah, that's supposed to be in inventory! Thief! Wait, why did cashier #00567 (Jim) not charge this guy? Are they friends? Did he give it to him for free and then the guy had guilt remorse? What's going on here? Jim, you're fired. Sir, if you want to pay us for this that's fine. Care to bring anything else in from home that has a UPC code on it and we can ring that up for you too?

Give $120 to Doctors Without Borders, or a charity of your choice.

[jeffd]

Huh I really like the idea of just donating a DS (or its price) to charity. Thanks ElGuapo (and whoever had the idea about donating one to Child's Play)!

[Moore]

Give the DS to charity, go buy and pay for another one. No firings, and you get no ill gotten gains. Gamestop or whatever can eat a dick.

[SlyFrog]

I'm not. He'll get put on probation at the very least. Loss prevention and all that.

I guess I just have no idea how they would even know who to stick the loss prevention issue on. The cashier did not check out or scan the item. The only possibility I can think of allowing them to link the loss to that cashier would be a painstaking review of some video camera above the cashier. They would then likely have to guess what day it occurred on, and be able to find it, in order to pin it on that one individual.

Effectively for purposes of loss prevention (in terms of discovering it evidence wise), what happened here was no different than basic shoplifting. All the store knows is that a product that was on the shelf is no longer on the shelf, and it was not paid for.

[Demon G Sides]

Childs Play is a good idea. Seriously.

Or, if, as you said, you may have been overcharged before, just keep it, and call it your just due's.

[charmtrap]

I suppose if he just brings in the boxed DS, and has them charge him for it, they wouldn't be able to pin it on anyone. He gets his guilty conscience assuaged, Gamestop gets their cash, everyone's happy.

I'm curious if they'll even do it though or just let him walk with it. No-one really comes out looking good with unpaid-for merchandise walking out the door.

[Mordrak]

I suppose if he just brings in the boxed DS, and has them charge him for it, they wouldn't be able to pin it on anyone. He gets his guilty conscience assuaged, Gamestop gets their cash, everyone's happy.

I'm curious if they'll even do it though or just let him walk with it. No-one really comes out looking good with unpaid-for merchandise walking out the door.

I don't understand this. Of course they'd pin it on someone. If he brings in his receipt (er, to prove he didn't pay for it?), they'd just check the time stamp and see who was working. Or, more likely, each person has a code and they'd be able to tell by the transaction who it was. If it's a Gamestop, they wouldn't even need his receipt, they'd just look up his name and check who handled his last transaction. And even if they couldn't find someone to blame, they would find someone. It's retail. It's the only way the managers justify their existence.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Tape it to a brick and toss it through the window at 4 am with a note (but not the receipt).

[shift6]

It is a pretty black and white issue. It is wrong to keep it for free. You already knew this before you asked.
It's not black and white at all. He had no intent to steal. Without intent, it's hard to definitively say that there is "a sin", religiously speaking. And now, with potentially someone else's employment (or at least their clean record) on the line, there may not be a clear way to resolve it without harming another person, which is "a sin".

I don't understand this. Of course they'd pin it on someone. If he brings in his receipt (er, to prove he didn't pay for it?), they'd just check the time stamp and see who was working. Or, more likely, each person has a code and they'd be able to tell by the transaction who it was.
How can you prove you didn't pay for it? All that receipt shows is that he didn't pay for it on that transaction. I can't see him going in holding it out and saying "here is the receipt on which I did not buy this DS!"

I believe the charity idea is the best resolution. Pay that motherfucker forward, jeffd. :)

[Rimbo]

It became a "sin" once he knew that he had gotten something for nothing that should have cost him $199 or whatever they charge for one of those things and didn't go back and give them the money.

[ScurvyPig]

On the other hand I like to think of myself as an honest and basically decent person and this is sort of a test of that. On the other hand - Free DS!

What would you guys do?

You want people to say "keep it" because she made a mistake, yet you want to remain honest. Dante has a place for you.

Or you could give her the money.

[Bullhajj]

If you're worried about sin, take the DS back and offer to pay for it in return for a blow job. Everyone wins!

[Moore]

It became a "sin" once he knew that he had gotten something for nothing that should have cost him $199 or whatever they charge for one of those things and didn't go back and give them the money.

But they gave it to him. Who is he to reject their generous gift?

[DeepT]

It's not black and white at all. He had no intent to steal. Without intent, it's hard to definitively say that there is "a sin", religiously speaking. And now, with potentially someone else's employment (or at least their clean record) on the line, there may not be a clear way to resolve it without harming another person, which is "a sin".

I do not believe in 'sins' because I do not believe in a deity who has a giant book of arbitrary rules that he or she is measuring mortals by.

Intent is moot here. It is not about did he do a bad thing by leaving the store with an unpaid item. He didn't know, so he is off the hook.

Once he got home, he then realized what happened. At this point he knew what the correct choice was, but didn't really want to give up a free
DS. If he didn't think there was any wrong in it, he would not have felt the need to make a post about it.

At any rate, this doesn't enter the realm of morality, it might be better described as an ethical dilemma instead of a moral one.

[Glycerine]

If it's GameStop, as shady as they are to their own customers, I'd say fuck 'em and keep it. If it's anywhere else, take it back and pay for it.

glyc

[Fugitive]

Did they scan the serial number on it? (The DS has the little window on the box for the cashier to scan it, right? I can't remember.) If so, then there's proof that the cashier at least handled it as part of the purchase, nullifying any potential 'thief!' accusations.

[shift6]

It became a "sin" once he knew that he had gotten something for nothing that should have cost him $199 or whatever they charge for one of those things and didn't go back and give them the money.
I don't agree.

I do not believe in 'sins' because I do not believe in a deity who has a giant book of arbitrary rules that he or she is measuring mortals by.
Yeah yeah, that's why I put "sin" in "quotes". I was attempting to use a word that we can all relate to, but without any more baggage than the context of the thread requires. You don't have to be a Judeo-Chrsitian to believe in the concept of moral or ethical wrongness, but "sin" is only three letters long; a recognition which you spent an entire sentence (not quoted) trying to draw out.

[walTer]

So if you got this for free- that means it wasn't scanned...so there is NO WAY they will know that you have it- I mean as far as inventory is concerned they are short one DS....so that means someone probably either shoplifted it or the inventory was incorrect.

I don't see how there is any way to link the DS to the register if it was never scanned. So as far as I can tell, the only issue is whether you want to pay for it now or not- I don't see anyone getting "in trouble" for it- according to the records, it never happened...

What store btw?

[barstein]

Anecdotal evidence to add to the pile: Long time ago I worked at small retail outlets, and know from peripheral experience that any good manager type has the ability to track down at least generally where the problem occurred. They then ask questions here and there, and depending on luck and honesty, might just identify the moment when the item went missing. This was crappy early 90's POS systems (well, the systems were often 80s) so if you got this at a store whose systems are any newer than that, I have to assume the records are even better.

On the other hand, the management is probably stupider and lazier, especially if this was a chain, which I imagine it must have been.

[DeepT]

You don't have to be a Judeo-Chrsitian to believe in the concept of moral or ethical wrongness, but "sin" is only three letters long; a recognition which you spent an entire sentence (not quoted) trying to draw out.

I am sorry to have belabored the point. There are many stand points and some have the wrong meaning. For example, Sin != Wrong != Immoral != Unethical. I can see a Christian being very concerned about committing a sin because it entails far more then the result of some kind of moral calculus. Further more, Sin's have no "right" or "wrong" inherently unless you equate following the rules set down by your faith as exactly the same thing as rightness and wrongness.

If you can't say what you mean, then you can't mean what you say.

[dannimal]

If the DS didn't get scanned, then won't you potentially have problems if you ever need to get it warranty repaired? A minor thing to consider, since you shouldn't NEED warranty repair, but hey.

[wisefool]

It's totally up to how much guild you feel. I can remember two times I was given too much money, and countless times I was shortchanged (I love how I tell the guy I was missing a dollar and the guy just hands me a dollar without even looking. He KNEW.)

I normally get my nicotine sticks and go back out. The other day this man gave me $80 extra. He must have thought I gave him a $100 instead of the usual $20. So I bring it back.

A long long time ago I was wandering the summer around SOHO. I walked into one of those artsy craft places and bought a duck marionet with red yarn. The person gave me an extra $20. I was 17 at the time, and that was like two weeks allowance. I noticed at the counter, and pocketed the money. My friend who paid with me noticed too. I walked out and mention crud they gave me extra cash. And I pocketed it. And I never went back to return it. Even my friend still remembers. If you're the time who gets guilt, don't take what you don't feel you deserve. I wouldn't even know how to find that person and return it.

if you CANNOT return it because you feel like you'd get the cashier in trouble, get the $100 and send it to a charity. Better yet, go to the same store and buy another one. Then wrap it and donate it on Christmas to a toy drive.

[Major Icehole]

I would go back and pay for it.

I'm callin you out on this Rimbo. I don't think so.

[quote=Rimbo]Awesome.

This whole thread is awesome.

Incidentally, I would have kept the TV and not said shit.[quote]

Taken from the "I have an ethics question" thread 1/19/07

[Bullhajj]

As if there is no difference between a TV and a DS. Come on, Major! Be reasonable.

[jeffd]

Nice work on exposing Rimbo's bullshit!

[Major Icehole]

Let me just say I hold nothing personal against anyone on these boards at this time. I'm just sayin.

Icehole

[Vesper]

Save your game. Try returning it and see what happens. If this produces an unfavorable result (clerk gets fired), reload your game and keep it.

[Bill Dungsroman]

I'm callin you out on this Rimbo. I don't think so.

Awesome.

This whole thread is awesome.

Incidentally, I would have kept the TV and not said shit.

Awesome, indeed.

[AndrewM]

If the DS didn't get scanned, then won't you potentially have problems if you ever need to get it warranty repaired? A minor thing to consider, since you shouldn't NEED warranty repair, but hey.

He got it for free! If he keeps it and it breaks he can just throw it away and buy a new one.

[bloo]

SlyFrog: I'm pretty sure no one can get in trouble over this. I have a friend who used to work retail and he says there's no way they track inventory close enough to identify the guy who screwed up.

Sorry, but don't you believe it. There are ways. It depends on where. Tracking that is very easy, some retail stores just don't care enough about it. Others do. There is often a code on the receipt that can identify the cashier, or the machine, and since most cash registers are now computers, that will have the info too. If they get the receipt, they can figure it out.

If this place is one of the uber-trackers, and there's a potential for getting the person fired, you could find the cashier have them charge you for the DS you bring into the store.

Even if the store isn't an uber-tracker, the missing DS is going to show up in their next inventory and be chalked up to "shrinkage", i.e., shoplifting. That will then reflect poorly on everyone at the store and their security systems. This is especially true for the staff if the DS was a 'behind the counter' type item.

[Major Icehole]

I meant to post a reply to the original question and was sidetracked by being an ass.

I'd like to think that I'd tell the store. I might not though. It seems a bit different than my ethics problem. In that case I had a receipt for a lesser model tv than I actually received. I was worried about them (the store) coming for me and I think that's the reason I brought it to their attention. In your case the ds is totally undocumented. Not to mention $100 as opposed to nearly $1000 in my case. I say if you can live with yourself, go ahead and keep it. I'll bet most people would. For what it's worth the store will never miss it.

Icehole

[jeffd]

Major: Yeah the receipt has the employee code on it. So if I returned it with the receipt they could definitely track it back to him. And the DS's are kept in a glass case.

Like I said my end solution was to donate the price of a DS to charity. My conscience is assuaged.

[Harugon]

How does this affect the warranty?

[jeffd]

Don't care about the warranty. If it fails I'll go out and buy another one.

[Harugon]

Don't care about the warranty. If it fails I'll go out and buy another one.

Great, sounds like you have enough money to do the right thing! I would go pay them and if they fire that employee for his one mistake, then maybe it's for the best. He needs a new job anyways.

[ElGuapo]

Clearly the ethics of the majority of QT3er are, at least in public, much better than a lot of people I see in DC every day, whose answer to this problem would be to laugh and make derisive jokes at even questioning returning it.

My honest answer to this is that I'd keep it. I'd feel like I got something for free, woo hoo! Then I'd feel maybe a pang of guilt. I'd think about how I could bring it to their attention. Then I'd go to my favorite charity's website and sit on the "donate" screen for a while. Then I'd close that window and go buy some more DS games from the retailer who I got it from, figuring I'm giving them money anyway in some kind of justification. I'd like to THINK I'd donate it to charity, but realistically my guilt level for some giant faceless corporation is very, very, very low. Now if I happened to get it from some local store that was independently owned, I'd either go back and call it to their attention or donate the charity money. But for some reason the pure profit nature of giant corporations makes unintentionally ripping them off seem . . . less morally disturbing, for some reason.

Kind of like say, throwing a brick through the window of an abandoned building (still owned by someone, somewhere) and throwing a brick through a neighbor's window. Same exact action, much different response from my conscious.

[jeffd]

I'm sad that Rimbo's apparently abandoned this thread. :(

[Bullhajj]

He got it for free! If he keeps it and it breaks he can just throw it away and buy a new one.

Not before complaining bitterly and flaming Nintendo and all of their subsidiaries on the Internet.

[Bullhajj]

If this happend to me, I would feel so bad I would have to masterbate, but then I'd feel much better and probably play some DS.

[Bill Dungsroman]

I'm sad that Rimbo's apparently abandoned this thread. :(
Not to worry. He popped up in SlyFrog's Sociopath thread to demo.