Things I've learned from Microsoft's Console

[fuzzyslug]

Microtransactions never really feel like a good deal.

A game is never finished. There's always a patch around the corner.

A game is never finished. We have something to sell you.

Storage is incredibly expensive.

You can charge for marketing materials. Gamer pics FTW.

Free isn't a term you should associate with downloadable content.

[WarrenM]

Examples please.

Which games aren't finished? Which game on the 360 has shipped in a state that required you to buy additional content to complete it?

What are you buying that is filling up the default hard drive? I've had my 360 for over 6 months now, have bought tons of XBLA games, and still have 11GB free. It sounds like you're punching yourself in the face and blaming Microsoft.

[Hanzii]

Hey, what he states might not be a problem for you or even most people, but everything on his list is true.

[Charles]

Microtransactions never really feel like a good deal.


They aren't microtransactions.


A game is never finished. There's always a patch around the corner.

A game is never finished. We have something to sell you.


If you want to push these points, they are also true about the PC.


You can charge for marketing materials. Gamer pics FTW.


You can charge, but only the retards buy. Are you a retard?


Free isn't a term you should associate with downloadable content.

Well, this is becoming truth anyway, what with digital distribution and all that. Just because a small number of companies had a habit of providing a couple free maps once in a while doesn't mean it was always destined to be free.

[WarrenM]

Hey, what he states might not be a problem for you or even most people, but everything on his list is true.
Then please provide the examples I asked for.

[TheTrunkDr]

I've never owned an MS console so I don't have any experience with Live and such, but I think I'd feel the same way. I was always torn on the downloadable stuff. I always knew it would lead to patches and incomplete games getting shipped and eventually buying stuff that I might feel should have been in the full game but the online play and knowing that some content would be free and I'd be able to get more life out of my console games seemed very appealing.

With what I've heard of late, MS being more nazish about charging people, EA charging for cheats and other content I'm becoming more and more alienated by Live, it seems to be turning into more of a burden or a cash grab than a feature.

[WarrenM]

Lots of talking points and sound bites, I agree, but still no examples.

Which games have shipped in an incomplete state and required downloadable content and/or patching to be finished?

[Rob_Merritt]

Worms and Lummines comes to mind.

[WarrenM]

Worms comes to mind.
All I can think of there is that the AI was too hard. Is that it?

[playingwithknives]

Which games have shipped in an incomplete state and required downloadable content and/or patching to be finished?


Dead or Alive 4 would not fully load and leave me at the title screen with nothing happening when i pressed start until i connected to Live and patched it.

My friend got the same game with his console, and as he is not online, had to have it refunded as he couldn't play it.

[forgeforsaken]

Worms looks like it had to cut voices and map backgrounds that are going to be added back as dlc (probably not free). The voicepacks if/when they get released really really should be free as they have them from all the other versions of the game.

[Rob_Merritt]

All I can think of there is that the AI was too hard. Is that it?

Worms was missing a lot of stuff that has been standard in Worms games since Worms 2 just because they needed to get under the 50 meg limit.

[Charles]

Well if the term "a game" is all inclusive, he could've learned many of those things from PC games long before the 360 ever existed.

That being said, boxed 360 games and XBLA games are different beasts.

[RickH]

Lots of talking points and sound bites, I agree, but still no examples.

Which games have shipped in an incomplete state and required downloadable content and/or patching to be finished?

Depends on what you mean by "finished." Games with online achievements can't be finished without paying MS $50/yr for a Gold Live account. Other games have definitely been shipped "unfinished" by that definition.

Crackdown shipped with 900 achievement points. They say they're going to add more stuff in later via download.

Battle for Middle Earth II shipped with 705 achievement points. Even though EA later released additional map packs, they never added the other 295.

The Godfather shipped with 835 achievement points. Not sure whether there are any plans to add the other 165. Also, this is the game that EA wants to sell you in-game cash and upgraded weapons through the Marketplace, despite the same functionality being available via free codes for other platforms.

PGR3 had the last 50 points added via downloaded update.

Marvel Ultimate Alliance and Oblivion now have paid expansions that add 250 more points available for the player.

Saints Row (and countless other games) required patches to fix/tweak online play.

Can you STFU about examples now?

[Skipper]

Microtransactions never really feel like a good deal.

Not entirely true, there are many good deals on XBL, in particular several of the XBLA titles. Some of the added content for games is quite good as well, in particular for Oblivion. Some seems pricey though (add on songs for GH2.)

A game is never finished. There's always a patch around the corner.

Not true, the overwhelming majority of my Xbox titles have never had a patch. Some have bugs that have been patched though. Contrast this to many PS2 and even SNES titles that shipped with bugs that everyone learned to work around. There simply was no patching process. Since when did fixing a game become a bad thing? I'll take the occasional Xbox patch.

A game is never finished. We have something to sell you.

Not entirely true. Some games have done this, though it is by far the exception to the rule. A nod here to EA games especially for milking it.

Storage is incredibly expensive.

True. Who knows, maybe the gold plate the hard drives, we just never see them inside the console.

You can charge for marketing materials. Gamer pics FTW.

Sure you can, but you can also give them away for free, a nuber of companies have. Most of these are pennies in charge. Like getting gum from the 25 cent machine. I'm not sure I would try to invalidate someone making a profit on their work by saying "I can't believe you don't give that away and charge me a quarter instead!"

Free isn't a term you should associate with downloadable content.

Not entirely true. But again, is it fair to ask for something when you give nothing in return? Does the guy at the fruit stand give you an apple every day you pass by because "hey it's only one apple." He still has to make a living, and in this case, perhaps the truckers union (Microsoft) is charging him an arm and a leg for transport from the orchards to the stand.

However, your thread confuses me Fuzzy. I see you online all the time, why the generalization thread? Did you get burned by MS recently or is there a particular transaction or game thats bugging you?

[jeffd]

Apparently RickH's definition of "finished" is "has 1000 points worth of achievements."

[BobJustBob]

This thread is all that is right and true. It's a shame about the trolls.

[jeffd]

Figured I might as well put my two cents in:

Microtransactions never really feel like a good deal.

No one ever called them microtransactions.

A game is never finished. There's always a patch around the corner.

A handful of games have needed patching, though never one I've encountered. That being said, many games *have* been patched for balance tweaks in multi. Is that really a bad thing? Do you imagine that had R6:Vegas been released in say the PS2 days that its multi would have been better balanced?

A game is never finished. We have something to sell you.

This one is absurd. Making additional content available means a game isn't finished? I mean what the shit duder; does the fact that there's probably going to be an NWN2 expansion or three somewhere down the line mean that NWN2 isn't finished? Lay off the crazypills.

Storage is incredibly expensive.

Yeah the prices on storage are zany. Can't argue with you here.

You can charge for marketing materials. Gamer pics FTW.

And if you're dumb enough to pay for them you deserve what you get.

Free isn't a term you should associate with downloadable content.

Why should it be?

[fuzzyslug]

Not entirely true, there are many good deals on XBL, in particular several of the XBLA titles. Some of the added content for games is quite good as well, in particular for Oblivion. Some seems pricey though (add on songs for GH2.)

I think you could argument against the statement but I've yet to really feel that way. Everything feels as expensive as I'd possibly pay for it. I feel my wallet being stretched. This is probably the most disappointing thing about the marketplace as a whole for me. It feels like the money is extracted, not given.


Not true, the overwhelming majority of my Xbox titles have never had a patch. Some have bugs that have been patched though. Contrast this to many PS2 and even SNES titles that shipped with bugs that everyone learned to work around. There simply was no patching process. Since when did fixing a game become a bad thing? I'll take the occasional Xbox patch.

I haven't experienced the former. Nearly every game I've played on my 360 has been patched. Some have been patched multiple times (e.g. Texas Hold'em might be good one of these days if they keep at it).

I agree with your last statement, in particular when you factor in online play and especially when you consider that the automatic updates shelter you from the nasty details.

Not entirely true. Some games have done this, though it is by far the exception to the rule. A nod here to EA games especially for milking it.

Again, this isn't my experience. It seems that every game I play has some type of add-on content. Some is obviously junk (see EA) and some is obviously held back from the retail release (see Guitar Hero II). You can argue convincingly for both sides whether or not this is a good thing (e.g. we get more after the fact vs. this game is really $70) but there's a lot of downloadable extras out there, even if it is only a fancy picture.


Not entirely true. But again, is it fair to ask for something when you give nothing in return? Does the guy at the fruit stand give you an apple every day you pass by because "hey it's only one apple." He still has to make a living, and in this case, perhaps the truckers union (Microsoft) is charging him an arm and a leg for transport from the orchards to the stand.

Maybe it isn't fair to ask but I've been used to it for many years with my PC. I want my Unreal Tournament packs for free. I'm used to it. I like it. I don't blame MS for charging for it or encouraging people to charge for it. But they are monetizing something I used to get for free. I don't like the precedent.

However, your thread confuses me Fuzzy. I see you online all the time, why the generalization thread? Did you get burned by MS recently or is there a particular transaction or game thats bugging you?

This is a pretty good question, particularly because the 360 is my favorite console of the moment and I own them all. I suppose I'm feeling a little disenfranchised with MS lately. They want $180 for the good hard drive. They want more than $100 for GH II and a few extra songs. I'm feeling a bit gang raped from a cost perspective. I no longer have the inclination to keep up with the Joneses and it's bumming me out.

I can't say my recent purchase of a PS3 had no part in it. I can back up data on a cheap SD card. I can used my saved games when playing PS2 games. There are definitely some things Sony does right, even if pricing a console isn't one of them.

That said, the above statements could be taken either way. A Blizzard game is never done. That is in no way a bad thing. I was hoping some folks would add their own instead of pining for specific examples of broad generalizations. Here, I'll add a good one:

Online can be done right on a console.

[DaveC]

Thing I have learned:

Current gen console games can be hella fun.
Current gen console games look smoking hot
Live is even better than it used to be
Marketplace is awesome

[WarrenM]

It's a shame about the trolls.
Agreed.

[DaveC]

With what I've heard of late, MS being more nazish about charging people, EA charging for cheats and other content I'm becoming more and more alienated by Live, it seems to be turning into more of a burden or a cash grab than a feature.

Hi folks, I am alienated by a system I have never tried because some people on the internet bitched. I also hear sex with super models is overrated.

[DaveC]

Depends on what you mean by "finished." Games with online achievements can't be finished without paying MS $50/yr for a Gold Live account. Other games have definitely been shipped "unfinished" by that definition.

Can you STFU about examples now?

As Charles said you could also say all that about PC games. Also, what about console games in the past that had bugs that couldn't be patched? That was "the suck", just ask all the GT users. Naming additional content for achievements that most users won't even notice or care about is a little on the specious side as well.

[Skipper]

This is a pretty good question, particularly because the 360 is my favorite console of the moment and I own them all. I suppose I'm feeling a little disenfranchised with MS lately. They want $180 for the good hard drive. They want more than $100 for GH II and a few extra songs. I'm feeling a bit gang raped from a cost perspective. I no longer have the inclination to keep up with the Joneses and it's bumming me out.

Can't say I don't agree with you here. If anything I hope that the PS3 does enough business to keep Microsoft honest on XBL pricing. We've seen what happens when they own all market share.

Honestly though I really like XBL. I like the front end, the ease of use, the amount of demos and full download games, etc. One part of me doesn't like the price, but the other part of me feels guilty for thinking that since the tool itself is so nice to have on a console. There needs to be another successful console with a large online equivalent to ensure fair price and competitive feature sets.

[Moore]

Examples please.

Which games aren't finished? Which game on the 360 has shipped in a state that required you to buy additional content to complete it?

What are you buying that is filling up the default hard drive? I've had my 360 for over 6 months now, have bought tons of XBLA games, and still have 11GB free. It sounds like you're punching yourself in the face and blaming Microsoft.

Well, the betas are pretty huge. When halo hits, I'll need to drop shadowrun or never rent a movie again.

[DaveC]

This is a pretty good question, particularly because the 360 is my favorite console of the moment and I own them all. I suppose I'm feeling a little disenfranchised with MS lately. They want $180 for the good hard drive. They want more than $100 for GH II and a few extra songs. I'm feeling a bit gang raped from a cost perspective. I no longer have the inclination to keep up with the Joneses and it's bumming me out.


Don't need the 120GB HD here and the additional content is optional. If you feel like you are getting gang raped it's your own fault if you buy them. Sort of like taping a big "STICK YOUR PENIS HERE" sign on your ass.

[WarrenM]

Seriously, do you HAVE to have the Halo 3 beta? Do you HAVE to have GH2? Fuck, if you want to have huge expensive games then you'll have to prepare accordingly.

[extarbags]

Is this a copy/paste from an email forward?

[Stroker Ace]

Needs pictures of kittens and more of this

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>>>> uncle joe (joe@aol.com) wrote:

[JoshV]

Depends on what you mean by "finished." Games with online achievements can't be finished without paying MS $50/yr for a Gold Live account. Other games have definitely been shipped "unfinished" by that definition.


I thought you could play online w/ just a Silver account?

[extarbags]

I thought you could play online w/ just a Silver account?

You can't. But also, I'm pretty sure "finished" means "the game is done being made," not "you have beaten the game."

[Jonathan Blow]

Seriously, do you HAVE to have the Halo 3 beta? Do you HAVE to have GH2? Fuck, if you want to have huge expensive games then you'll have to prepare accordingly.

Dude, your position is becoming ever more tenuous.

You're saying it's not valid for him to complain about the cost of the hard drives, because he doesn't really HAVE to have the Halo 3 beta? What??

[Gunmetal]

As Charles said you could also say all that about PC games. Also, what about console games in the past that had bugs that couldn't be patched? That was "the suck", just ask all the GT users. Naming additional content for achievements that most users won't even notice or care about is a little on the specious side as well.
The GT bug where rounding meant you couldn't get 100% completion?
Wasn't there a problem with DOA4 where it would actually delete your saves?

[Gunmetal]

Hi folks, I am alienated by a system I have never tried because some people on the internet bitched. I also hear sex with super models is overrated.

Which parts of (quoting)

1) "MS being more nazish about charging people"
2) "EA charging for cheats and other content"

require him to have tried the system?
"Paying 5 bucks for a cheat that is available for free on other systems is a rip-off!"
"Have you tried paying 5 bucks? Maybe you'll like it!"

As soon as the PS3 has some EA games, I'm sure they'll find a way to charge for cheats on it as well. Doesn't mean it suddenly becomes not bullshit

[roguefrog]

Things I've learned:

Multi-platform development hurts PC more than it does console
PC Franchises made on consoles are dumber
Just another PC Shooter when made a console exclusive can sell millions

[fuzzyslug]

Hi folks, I am alienated by a system I have never tried because some people on the internet bitched. I also hear sex with super models is overrated.

Classic sour grapes. It smells like a bag of assholes if you can't have it. :)

[Myth]

Seriously folks, why all the angst towards fuzzyslug. He makes some valid points. I have no problem spending tons of money on games, movies and other fun stuff but you you can't deny that the price structure for a lot of the extra content and Live priviledges is not as consumer friendly as it could be. Microsoft is banking on the fact that there are a sufficient number of addicts and completists out there to turn a profit, despite some of the "badwill" they are generating.

Personally I hope that Microsoft's "pay and then pay some more to play" model will go the way of the Ten Network and Mplayer, and some real competition will usher in an era where the consumer isn't nickle and dimed to death at every turn.

[Moore]

Personally I hope that Microsoft's pay and then pay some more to play model will go the way of the Ten Network and Mplayer, and some real competition will usher in an era where the consumer isn't nickle and dimed to death at every turn.

This depends on nintendo thinking online gaming is valid and/or sony stopping their company-wide brain cancer.

So, I'd love MS to be forced to compete w/ someone for online stores / online multiplayer that isnt a pain, but there isnt anyone stepping up on other consoles.

[WarrenM]

Dude, your position is becoming ever more tenuous.

You're saying it's not valid for him to complain about the cost of the hard drives, because he doesn't really HAVE to have the Halo 3 beta? What??
No, uh ... dude, I'm saying that he has choices on what to put on his hard drive. The Halo 3 beta isn't going to eat the entire drive. If you fill it up, you'll need to buy another drive. Deal.

[DaveC]

Which parts of (quoting)

1) "MS being more nazish about charging people"
2) "EA charging for cheats and other content"

require him to have tried the system?
"Paying 5 bucks for a cheat that is available for free on other systems is a rip-off!"
"Have you tried paying 5 bucks? Maybe you'll like it!"

As soon as the PS3 has some EA games, I'm sure they'll find a way to charge for cheats on it as well. Doesn't mean it suddenly becomes not bullshit

This part I've never owned an MS console so I don't have any experience with Live and such...

[Midnight Son]

Just to piss people off, I always use: M$, or Microshaft, or Micropissantmotherfuckers or something similar.

[DaveC]

Just to piss people off, I always use: M$, or Microshaft, or Micropissantmotherfuckers or something similar.

And you must begin all threads with "Fuck Micro$hit"

[Midnight Son]

And you must begin all threads with "Fuck Micro$hit"

Yes! My precious!

(By the way, since my initials are MS, I like to differentiate myself from the Evil Empire.)

[RickH]

As Charles said you could also say all that about PC games.

You are correct. However, your correct statement is also irrelevant to the topic.

Also, what about console games in the past that had bugs that couldn't be patched? That was "the suck", just ask all the GT users.

You are correct, they sucked. However, the "release and patch" approach to software development is a double-edged sword. Mistakes happen, and it's good to be able to correct them. However, it's all too easy to put a bug in the "fix with patch" pile when a hard ship date is looming.

I think that's part of what fuzzy was talking about, but I was really responding to EpicBoy's third request for examples, as if repeating the same request for information over and over somehow proves the information doesn't exist.

Naming additional content for achievements that most users won't even notice or care about is a little on the specious side as well.

I think MS would not have added the last 50 points for PGR3, or would have bothered holding back the last 100 achievement points from Crackdown for a later download if they thought that "most users won't even notice or care about" it. Personally, I'm looking forward to more Crackdown, and I'll be first in line if they release quality paid content.

I think you may have slapped the label of "specious" on a point that I wasn't trying to make. I was providing examples in response to repeated assheaded requests. I was not expressing an opinion on whether patching, free downloaded content, or paid downloaded content (or releasing games with less content than offered on other platforms), was a good or bad thing. I think it's mostly good, but could turn bad pretty quick if it's not managed properly. Or if EA gets its way.

[TheTrunkDr]

This part
I've never owned an MS console so I don't have any experience with Live and such...
Well we have one and work that I've played several times. Either way I'm not sure why I need to own it and subscribe to the service to know that I'm not going to like paying money for cheat codes or content. Sure I don't have to, but frankly the fact that it happens leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I'm a consumer and I try to keep myself informed about expensive things I might be intersted in purchasing. Many of the things I KNOW about Live don't make me think it's terribly beneficial to me, so I'm not interested in buying a 360. I'm not sure why my opinion or reasons for my decision are some less valid because I haven't bought the damn thing, that's some really stupid reasoning on your part to think people have to own something before they can make a decision about whether or not they want to buy it. Hooray for circular logic!!!

I also hear sex with super models is overrated.
It is.

[Coca Cola Zero]

I completely agree with the complaints about the pricing of most stuff on XBL. No, I don't HAVE TO HAVE "IT" and I just don't buy "it" when I don't agree with the pricing, but the whole service does feel like a nickel and diming machine as of late, with the GH2 song packs being the most recent and obviously ridiculously overpriced example. I'm generally OK with the price of individal Live Arcade games, but pretty much anything to do with add-on downloadable content (the Lumines add-ons, GH2 song packs, horse armor, etc) seems ridiculously overpriced.

When I first got the 360 and Live, Live was like the coolest thing ever, but now the pricing of these "micro"-transations has left a bad taste in my mouth and made me much less likely to buy *anything* from Live, even things with fairly reasonable prices. It isn't that I'm boycotting the service so much as that their pricing has left me in a guarded state where I really need to justify any purchase I make from them before I make it.

Jacking up the price of everything little thing you offer to the point where you'll maximize profit on that specific item is great if all you care about is very short term profit, but continuously doing it to the same community over and over is bound to generate ill will that will bite you on the ass eventually, and hopefully the huge flap over the pricing of GH2 DLC is giving Microsoft a small clue about this.

[DaveC]

I'm a consumer and I try to keep myself informed about expensive things I might be intersted in purchasing. Many of the things I KNOW about Live don't make me think it's terribly beneficial to me, so I'm not interested in buying a 360. I'm not sure why my opinion or reasons for my decision are some less valid because I haven't bought the damn thing, that's some really stupid reasoning on your part to think people have to own something before they can make a decision about whether or not they want to buy it. Hooray for circular logic!!!


Didn't say you had to own it, but you felt the need to complain about it with little to no experience by your own confession. So, in essence you contradicted your assertion that you like to keep yourself informed. It seems you just cherry picked the stuff that bugged you.

[WarrenM]

I'm generally OK with the price of individal Live Arcade games, but pretty much anything to do with add-on downloadable content (the Lumines add-ons, GH2 song packs, horse armor, etc) seems ridiculously overpriced.
Well, you know, I'm not defending their pricing model but generally the market decides what it will and will not bear. The best way to vote is with your wallet - if nobody buys it, they'll try something else. But since Horse Armor moves like a million units, the objectors are pretty much screwed.

[Kunikos]

I also hear sex with super models is overrated.

Slamming your pelvis into a bony skinbag doesn't sound great to me... and have you seen Naomi without her make-up and weave in? She looks like a crack-addled whore from 109th Street!

[VegasRobb]

Examples please.

Which games aren't finished? Which game on the 360 has shipped in a state that required you to buy additional content to complete it?


Godfather sorta come close. You couldn't obtain some of the endgame weaponry despite it's presence on the map. Interacting with the npc gave a "dlc unavailable" style message.

You could finish the game without the cool guns.

Eventually some dlc did come out, but you had to pay for the guns.

[TheTrunkDr]

Didn't say you had to own it, but you felt the need to complain about it with little to no experience by your own confession. So, in essence you contradicted your assertion that you like to keep yourself informed. It seems you just cherry picked the stuff that bugged you.
I didn't contradict anything, one can be informed without owning and I have used and seen the system used by others. I'm sorry that you feel you need to belittle me because of my opinion of a product I considered purchasing but have yet to find reason enough to justify the expense and as time goes on I find more and more reasons not to buy it.

It's generally the opposite of how I feel about consoles. I usually become more and more interested as more games become available and the price drops. Live was an attraction (though a small one for me) on both the original Xbox and the 360 but with the news that has been reported of late it seems to be less of a feature to me and is infact detracting from the interest I have in the 360. Think my view is wrong fine, you don't have to be an ass about it, I'm also not the only one with this view.

[DaveC]

I didn't contradict anything, one can be informed without owning and I have used and seen the system used by others. I'm sorry that you feel you need to belittle me because of my opinion of a product I considered purchasing but have yet to find reason enough to justify the expense and as time goes on I find more and more reasons not to buy it.

It's generally the opposite of how I feel about consoles. I usually become more and more interested as more games become available and the price drops. Live was an attraction (though a small one for me) on both the original Xbox and the 360 but with the news that has been reported of late it seems to be less of a feature to me and is infact detracting from the interest I have in the 360. Think my view is wrong fine, you don't have to be an ass about it, I'm also not the only one with this view.

Once again, did I say you had to own one? Please show me where I said that becasue you keep repeating it. As for Live, why would it affect your purchasing decisions at all? Here's the great thing about Live, if you don't want to use it you don't have to. So, going by the rest of your criteria it comes down to games and the 360 has some really good titles out now with more in the pipe. Once again, cherry picking.

[fuzzyslug]

Once again, did I say you had to own one? Please show me where I said that becasue you keep repeating it. As for Live, why would it affect your purchasing decisions at all? Here's the great thing about Live, if you don't want to use it you don't have to. So, going by the rest of your criteria it comes down to games and the 360 has some really good titles out now with more in the pipe. Once again, cherry picking.

This is silly talk. Why would the best thing about the console, which is something you have to pay for to play games online, affect your purchasing decision? Oh, I dunno!?!

[JPR]

He obviously meant that if it's detracting from your desire to buy, then you can disable it. Since it's completely optional, it can only be a plus.

If you're able to approach it completely rationally, that's true, but I certainly believe that you could allow yourself to be irrationally soured on the whole idea because of problems with the Live Marketplace implementation.

[TheTrunkDr]

It's a thread about what someone considers to be the negative aspects of the 360. Guess I don't see the problem with contributing what I feel are negative aspects of that same console. So what exactly am I "cherry picking?"

[DaveC]

This is silly talk. Why would the best thing about the console, which is something you have to pay for to play games online, affect your purchasing decision? Oh, I dunno!?!

He said Live didn't appeal to him and has been pointed out many times here on Qt3, not everyone likes playing Live. So, just as a stand alone console with no net connection I am saying the 360 is still a viable choice. Random internet bitching notwithstanding.

[DaveC]

It's a thread about what someone considers to be the negative aspects of the 360. Guess I don't see the problem with contributing what I feel are negative aspects of that same console. So what exactly am I "cherry picking?"

Here, I'll put it another way. Let's say I am looking at new cars and Chrysler offers this built in MP3 player/navigation system that is quite expensive. Otherwise I really like the car. Now, wouldn't you say it's silly for me to say that I won't buy the car now because an option that doesn't really change the performance or comfort of the car and one that I'm not really interested in is kind of a rip-off.

[TheTrunkDr]

Here, I'll put it another way. Let's say I am looking at new cars and Chrysler offers this built in MP3 player/navigation system that is quite expensive. Otherwise I really like the car. Now, wouldn't you say it's silly for me to say that I won't buy the car now because an option that doesn't really change the performance or comfort of the car and one that I'm not really interested in is kind of a rip-off.
That's not the point, I like the general idea of Live and the Marketplace but balk at it's implementation and the attitude that MS has taken. If I owned a 360 I'd want to take advantage of those features, I don't want to hate myself for doing it though. Why would I want to purchase a product that would tie me to them when I don't like what they're doing with the product? It's more like a bad cell phone plan that you got cause the phone was nifty.

I have the same attitude about iTunes, I like the idea and would like a similar service but I hate their implementation.

[Moore]

Godfather sorta come close. You couldn't obtain some of the endgame weaponry despite it's presence on the map. Interacting with the npc gave a "dlc unavailable" style message.

You could finish the game without the cool guns.

Eventually some dlc did come out, but you had to pay for the guns.

That tier of weapons dont exist in any otehr version. So was the ps2 one unfinished too?

[Charles]

That's not the point, I like the general idea of Live and the Marketplace but balk at it's implementation and the attitude that MS has taken. If I owned a 360 I'd want to take advantage of those features, I don't want to hate myself for doing it though. Why would I want to purchase a product that would tie me to them when I don't like what they're doing with the product? It's more like a bad cell phone plan that you got cause the phone was nifty.

I have the same attitude about iTunes, I like the idea and would like a similar service but I hate their implementation.


Yeah but you also said you would NEVER pay a monthly fee for a game. What level is your rogue?

[DaveC]

Yeah but you also said you would NEVER pay a monthly fee for a game. What level is your rogue?

Don't you be bringing logic and previous statements into this pal.