Pacman Suspended for Season

[sluggo]

Titans' Pacman Jones suspended for season, Chris Henry suspended 8 games:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-jones-henrysuspensions&prov=ap&type=lgns

I don't know if this is a one-time PR move by the NFL or if they're going to continue this down the line, but for reasons I can't put my finger on, this announcement makes me happy. It's like someone is finally saying "this is ridiculous behaviour and we're not going to stand for it any more."

In other news, get off my lawn, you young whippersnappers.

[Matt Bowyer]

I can't imagine there's any question Jones deserved it. What a piece of work he was. I hope he doesn't get to come back after this unless he's really sure he's not going to have a member of his entourage shoot bouncers after he beats up a stripper.

[dannimal]

Well, I'm sure the NFL is hoping that as a PR move it's something they won't have to continue down the line.

[wildpokerman]

I'm totally in favor of this, most professional companies would fire or suspend key personnel for behaving this way on or off the job.

[Gary Whitta]

If Jones actually did what he did I don't see how a lifetime ban isn't more appropriate. Also some jail time.

[fire]

http://www.capehostpro.com/downloads/pacman.gif
?

[Slainte Mhath]

Looks like PacMan's going to need to save some of those "show dollars" he likes to throw around on stage so he can afford to pay the rent next season.

The 8 game suspension for Henry was pretty much exactly what people here in Cincinnati figured he'd get (and deserves). Now the only question is if/when the Bengals will drop his sorry ass. Someone else will pick him up though, suspension and all, because the kid really does have talent on the field, he just has no brains off it.

[Slainte Mhath]

Fire: Change all the litte dots to dollar signs and the ghosts to strippers and you've pretty much got it...

[Rimbo]

Fire: Change all the litte dots to dollar signs and the ghosts to strippers and you've pretty much got it...

Pacman Jones runs away from strippers?

[Matt Bowyer]

Pacman Jones runs away from strippers?

But then he gets the Big Money Dot and can whoop some stripper ass.

[dannimal]

But then he makes it rain and can whoop some stripper ass.

Fixed.

[Stroker Ace]

Vince Vaughn makes it rain, not Pacman.

[dannimal]

You need to spend more time in strip clubs with Pacman, I guess.

[Bill Dungsroman]

This isn't just a PR move. This is how the commish, Roger Goodell, is going to be handling things, IMO. The NFL has enough stars in its league to survive strong disciplinary actions against the deserving few.

The interesting part is that Henry and Jones' suspensions are contingent upon their behavior in the interim. Meaning, Jones has to stay clean another year and a half nearly in order to even be re-instated. I doubt he'll be able to, with all that free time. Henry maybe, although the odds don't really favor him much, either.

[Stroker Ace]

Too bad, as Jones was the non-VY half of the Titans' magic this year.

[BaconTastesGood]

I dunno, this kinda irks me, because they're being nailed for off-field behaviour that hasn't been proven (IIRC). While I understand that Pacman is a complete dumbass and asshole, I don't like the employer-as-babysitter mentality here.

I can't believe these guys are getting such long suspensions when Haynesworth, who should have had files charged, got like, what, a 4-game suspension?

[Kunikos]

I can't imagine there's any question Jones deserved it. What a piece of work he was. I hope he doesn't get to come back after this unless he's really sure he's not going to have a member of his entourage shoot bouncers after he beats up a stripper.

To be fair, she was kinda askin' for it!

[Bill Dungsroman]

I dunno, this kinda irks me, because they're being nailed for off-field behaviour that hasn't been proven (IIRC). While I understand that Pacman is a complete dumbass and asshole, I don't like the employer-as-babysitter mentality here.
Image and PR. The NFL would hardly be the first company/business to do something along these lines. Also, whether or not the latest incidents have been proven, past ones have and it is fairly common sense to think that Jones and Henry, with their repeated run-ins with the law, whether proven guilty or innocent, deserve some attention. It's not just who they are or what they do, specifically, it is the actions of those around them or the situations they choose to end up in that led to these incidents. You can hang out in a crack house and not do crack, but don't expect to be above reproach merely because nobody could prove you did any crack.


I can't believe these guys are getting such long suspensions when Haynesworth, who should have had files charged, got like, what, a 4-game suspension?
I can believe it. An on-field incident vs. several off-field incidents? It's not too hard to see.

[Robert Sharp]

This is ridiculous. Pacman has not been convicted of anything. In other words, he is being punished for being questioned and for having run ins with the law. Now, I am NOT saying he is a saint. But a whole year for a guy who hasn't been convicted of anything is WAY steep.

And Kid Socrates, you are dangerously close to libel. You can't just accuse someone of an act without any evidence. Even the LV police have not found any evidence (so far declared anyway) that he is guilty of what you are saying.

[Matt Bowyer]

This is ridiculous. Pacman has not been convicted of anything. In other words, he is being punished for being questioned and for having run ins with the law. Now, I am NOT saying he is a saint. But a whole year for a guy who hasn't been convicted of anything is WAY steep.

And Kid Socrates, you are dangerously close to libel. You can't just accuse someone of an act without any evidence. Even the LV police have not found any evidence (so far declared anyway) that he is guilty of what you are saying.

No, it's not steep at all. The man's been arrested ten times since he was drafted, two of which he did not report to the Titans, which is a violation of the Personal Conduct Policy, I believe. I don't want to copy/paste three years of data from Wikipedia, but go click there and take a look.

And just stick an "alleged" or two up there then if it makes you feel better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacman_Jones

On the topic of Haynesworth, I agree, he should've been suspended a lot longer than four games. What he did was reprehensible.

(For those who don't recall, Titans DT Albert Haynesworth stepped on Dallas Cowboys C Andre Gurode's unhelmeted head twice after a play was over, driving his cleats into the man's face.)

[Robert Sharp]

I don't need the wiki. As a Titans fan, I am quite aware of the incidents. What bothers me is not that he was suspended. It bothers me how severe the punishment is. Henry has been convicted. Yes, being arrested is bad, but he hasn't been convicted. His lawyers will fight this btw...big time. I don't know that it will work, but that's their plan. It could be quite ugly.

I think what Haynesworth did was worse, actually. So I agree with you on that.

edit: This assumes that Pacman is not guilty of any connection the shooting in LV. If evidence arises that shows that he was involved, that's worse than Albert, obviously.

[dannimal]

You don't need to be convicted of anything to fall under the various (meaning contract with the team or possibly seperate NFL rules which are covered by the CBA) personal conduct rules.

8-10 arrests qualifies.

I also agree that Haynesworth's single incident is worse than any single incident Jones has been arrested for (with the same caveat as Robert), but it's a single incident and not the 8th. If Haynesworth ever steps on someone's head again or does something in the same vein I'd bet he gets suspended for a season (or more).

[Bill Dungsroman]

OK, it's time to hit the Homer Buzzer on Robert. Come on, Robert.

[Matt Bowyer]

I don't need the wiki. As a Titans fan, I am quite aware of the incidents. What bothers me is not that he was suspended. It bothers me how severe the punishment is. Henry has been convicted. Yes, being arrested is bad, but he hasn't been convicted. His lawyers will fight this btw...big time. I don't know that it will work, but that's their plan. It could be quite ugly.

I think what Haynesworth did was worse, actually. So I agree with you on that.

edit: This assumes that Pacman is not guilty of any connection the shooting in LV. If evidence arises that shows that he was involved, that's worse than Albert, obviously.

Okay, that makes a bit more sense. I'm not really surprised you're a Titans fan and defending Jones, and that's not a slight. My friends have called me on defending Sean Taylor, as I'm a Redskins fan and he's just so damn good you kinda want to ignore all the trouble he's caused. He's been clean for a year, at least, but he probably should have been suspended for a game for spitting in the face of Buccaneers RB Michael Pittman during the playoffs two seasons ago.

I liked what Roger Goodell said a lot regarding both Jones and Henry:

"It is a privilege to represent the NFL, not a right," Goodell said in a statement announcing the suspensions. "These players and all members of our league have to make the right choices and decisions in their conduct on a consistent basis."

(source: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/04/10/suspensions/index.html)

[Stroker Ace]

Haynesworth and Pacman play for the same team Bill, I think Robert gets to have an opinion too :P

[Robert Sharp]

I don't mind being called a Homer, but remember that it also means I know more about him than most of you. He's got a short fuse and he's immature. I don't think he's a killer, frankly. In fact, he's done a lot of good things in Nashville too. As I said above, I think an 8 game suspension would have been perfectly reasonable. But we are talking about an unprecedented punishment here and a retroactive one at that. That's the problem for me.

BTW, it's actually a ten game suspension, which is more reasonable. He can be reinstated by that point if he meets certain conditions, including what happens with his upcoming cases:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17949870/

[Matt Bowyer]

Well, it could be as short as a ten-game suspension; it's up to Jones to prove he deserves being let back in after ten games, not the NFL to prove they should extend the suspension for the rest of the season.

When a convicted drug dealer is on record as saying that Pacman needs to get his act together and that coach Jeff Fisher doesn't need to put up with that kind of shit, though... Pacman seems to be running with the wrong crowd, and even members of that crowd are telling him to get his act together.

[Robert Sharp]

Definitely, but note that the conversation you mention was a year ago, not recently. Pacman has since changed a bit...or so we all thought around here, until the LV incident.

My biggest fear is that this will push him over the edge rather than help him. If it were 8 games, I think the fear might have helped. He's already been talking about getting away from his old friends. He comes from a world where you are a sell-out when you do that. He's got lots of leeches who have latched onto him with the justification that he can trust them because they knew him back in the day. I think he's starting to see who they really are. But now...who knows what will happen to him.

I get that you all think I am just upset about losing a fantastic football player (and he is that...best returned in the league, IMO). But that's not the case. I am upset about that, but I'm also worried about the kid.

[Alan Dunkin]

Do you walk his dog too?

Sure, he's not a killer. Boo hoo. It's an unprecedented suspension (well, not really, Ricky Williams got kicked out for a year). Then again, most other players who get suspended for off-the-field incidents didn't get involved in an incident where a man was crippled for life because of a firearm.

I don't think a year is nearly enough frankly. And Haynesworth should have been gone the entire year at least.

--- Alan

[Matt Bowyer]

Definitely, but note that the conversation you mention was a year ago, not recently. Pacman has since changed a bit...or so we all thought around here, until the LV incident.

My biggest fear is that this will push him over the edge rather than help him. If it were 8 games, I think the fear might have helped. He's already been talking about getting away from his old friends. He comes from a world where you are a sell-out when you do that. He's got lots of leeches who have latched onto him with the justification that he can trust them because they knew him back in the day. I think he's starting to see who they really are. But now...who knows what will happen to him.

I get that you all think I am just upset about losing a fantastic football player (and he is that...best returned in the league, IMO). But that's not the case. I am upset about that, but I'm also worried about the kid.

I'd give best returner to Devin Hester right now.

What was it, 10 arrests/questionings in two years? Are those figures right?

I think you're illustrating the problem the NFL faces quite well; perception. You're in that area, so you hear more about the little things that Pacman does. We hear "Pacman arrested for March 1st assault" and "Pacman makes it rain!" I follow the Redskins closely so I hear about Sean Taylor trying to make amends with Coach Gibbs, but the rest of the league hears and sees Sean Taylor, Thug Safety.

Jones needs help, yes, but the NFL shouldn't have to babysit him. He needs to latch onto one of the veterans there in Tennessee and learn from them and stick as their shadow while he gets his act together. I don't know who the classy Tennessee guys are, but he needs to go to one of his peers, I think.

But if playing for Fisher wasn't enough to get him on the right track, who knows. I think the year suspension with six games off for good behavior is a great incentive.

[Matt Bowyer]

Do you walk his dog too?

Sure, he's not a killer. Boo hoo. It's an unprecedented suspension (well, not really, Ricky Williams got kicked out for a year). Then again, most other players who get suspended for off-the-field incidents didn't get involved in an incident where a man was crippled for life because of a firearm.

I don't think a year is nearly enough frankly. And Haynesworth should have been gone the entire year at least.

--- Alan

Other players have been suspended for drug test violations for the year -- Onterrio Smith and Koren Robinson also come to mind. That's on a third offense, I think. That's a different animal than the Henry and Jones suspensions, which I think are unprecedented for personal conduct violations.

Except for Rae Carruth, but I think the NFL didn't need to suspend him when he was thrown in jail for 18 years.

[Rimbo]

What I find most unusual about it is the strong support for the move in the statement released by the Titans.

[Shadarr]

The only part of this that I don't like is that the suspension is coming before the conviction. If he's found innocent of any wrongdoing, then he will have been punished for no reason other than being a suspect in an investigation. I like living in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty. I personally think Pacman is a total punk, but even a punk deserves due process.

[jeffd]

He's getting his due process -as you pointed out he hasn't been convicted of anything yet.

That being said the league isn't obliged to follow "due process," any more than any other private employer.

[Slainte Mhath]

I don't think it's a question of guilt or innocence on any one particular allegation. The league isn't handing out suspensions to players who were detained by police for questioning in an incident or even arrested and charged with a crime. The league is handing out suspensions to Jones and Henry because they have repeatedly been in trouble with the law, repeatedly been arrested or detained, and have a history of very public off-field behavior that is an embarassment to themselves, their team and the NFL.

I think the league holding playes responsible for extreme off-field behavior is a prefectly acceptable idea. Hitting these guys in the wallet and the ego (salary and playtime) is the only message they'll understand.

[Matt Bowyer]

What I find most unusual about it is the strong support for the move in the statement released by the Titans.

There was a lot of buzz about the Titans possibly cutting Jones regardless of what the league decided. Rumors only, but plenty of them.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Haynesworth and Pacman play for the same team Bill, I think Robert gets to have an opinion too :P
I never said he didn't, Stroker. I'm just saying that Robert has eagerly jumped to Pacman's defense in both this thread and the earlier thread regarding the shooting. If you can't add 1+1 to get 2 in that Robert's a Titans fans and is defending the NFL player with far and away the worst off-field public track record who also happens to be a Titan, then slap your math teacher. It's not my fault.

The Niners waived WR Antonio Bryant because of his DUI/resisting arrest incident last season. That incident got him a 4 game suspension. One off-field incident. Robert says Pacman's rap sheet is only roughly twice as bad as that. I disagree, but by the same token, I'm not going to jump to Bryant's defense because it could be argued that he only got the DUI because it was after they had won their first big game of the season and he was celebrating it, and that he loved playing for the Niners more than any team in his career, and had stated so publicly, and was a major contributor to the Niners. They waived him, I'm happy they did. Sharp wants Pacman back to play for his team, I hope to God he never plays another down in the NFL, just as on a smaller scale I am happy Bryant and any other potential malcontent doesn't play for the 49ers.

[Stroker Ace]

I guess I was just skimming, Bill. You look like you have your shit together, and I don't even remember what I was talking about. I concede this round!

[BaconTastesGood]

That being said the league isn't obliged to follow "due process," any more than any other private employer.

That's the other thing that bothers me -- this is a suspension being handed down by the league, NOT by Jones's employer (the Titans).

[jeffd]

Thats true, but pro sports really blurs the lines amongst such thing. Plus his employer assumedly agreed to the CBA, which I assume gives the NFL the power to suspend him in the first place.

[Alan Dunkin]

Actually I think they were waiting to see what the league did, or the league told them not to do anything yet.

BTW, drug test violations are personal conduct violations.

I feel the same way about the Cowboys frankly, if you're going to be an ass then I have no problems getting your ass kicked to the curb. Dwayne Goodrich is a pretty good example, and the previously mentioned Bryant was traded away. I wish they'd give Owens the boot but at least he and his posse aren't gunning down people. Keith Davis is another worry--he strangely enough happens to get shot a lot.

--- Alan

[Bill Dungsroman]

That's the other thing that bothers me -- this is a suspension being handed down by the league, NOT by Jones's employer (the Titans).
That's a pretty inconsequential matter of semantics, B. It also speaks to one of my points - the Titans may be hesitant to suspend one of their good players, because that impairs their chances to win ballgames, whereas the NFL as a whole doesn't really care about their ability to win or lose ballgames based upon whether or not troublesome players are allowed to play. You'll note Robert sure doesn't care that Jones is a miscreant, whereas the rest of us do. Microcosm vs. macrocosm.

[Shadarr]

He's getting his due process -as you pointed out he hasn't been convicted of anything yet.

That being said the league isn't obliged to follow "due process," any more than any other private employer.
That's what I don't like. It's conceivable a player could be suspended without pay because of completely spurious accusations which are later proven to be without merit in court, like for example a crazy ex wife. If the Titans want to cut Pacman for being a punk, that's one thing. However the league is more like a governing body and therefor should behave more like one. Getting exonerated in court is pretty worthless if you've already lost millions of dollars in wages merely from the accusation of wrongdoing.

The Niners waived WR Antonio Bryant because of his DUI/resisting arrest incident last season. That incident got him a 4 game suspension. One off-field incident.
The DUI was the biggest thing, but he also missed team meetings and beaked off at coaches, which is a real quick way to get fired in Nolantown. He was benched for at least one game last season for behavior unrelated to the DUI. If he was a model citizen aside from the DUI I bet he wouldn't have been cut.

[Uncle Larry]

Slap! (http://www.bangcartoon.com/2007/pacman.htm)

[Bill Dungsroman]

That's what I don't like. It's conceivable a player could be suspended without pay because of completely spurious accusations which are later proven to be without merit in court, like for example a crazy ex wife. If the Titans want to cut Pacman for being a punk, that's one thing. However the league is more like a governing body and therefor should behave more like one. Getting exonerated in court is pretty worthless if you've already lost millions of dollars in wages merely from the accusation of wrongdoing.
Well, remember this doesn't come from one isolated incident pending investigation. It's an outlandish series of incidents.



The DUI was the biggest thing, but he also missed team meetings and beaked off at coaches, which is a real quick way to get fired in Nolantown. He was benched for at least one game last season for behavior unrelated to the DUI. If he was a model citizen aside from the DUI I bet he wouldn't have been cut.
Of course, he wasn't a model citizen. Coincidence? Anyway, that plays to my point of being too silver-lining-oriented for a home team player.

[dannimal]

That's the other thing that bothers me -- this is a suspension being handed down by the league, NOT by Jones's employer (the Titans).

Except that as has been pointed out, he's employed by the Titans, who are not only an NFL Franchise (and thus under their "management" to some extent) but also a member of the NFL Player's Association, a union that entered into a Collective Bargaining Agreement with the NFL.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Except that as has been pointed out, he's employed by the Titans, who are not only an NFL Franchise (and thus under their "management" to some extent) but also a member of the NFL Player's Association, a union that entered into a Collective Bargaining Agreement with the NFL.
It's also worth noting many members of the NFLPA in attendance at the meeting where terms of punishment for Jones and Henry were discussed voted to have Jones ejected from the league.

[Robert Sharp]

I don't care if Pacman never plays again for the Titans. He makes our team look terrible. You can pretend to know my motives, Bill, but you can't actually know them. I feel sorry for him. Maybe I would feel sorry for Henry too if I had seen more of him and knew more about him. But I don't. I don't pay much attention to Bengals players. But I see plenty of Pacman. Yes, his loss to our team hurts real bad, but I'd rather cut him than have him continue to act up like this. I just don't think this is a good or fair solution.

I take it Bryant was actually found guilty?

[Matt Bowyer]

I don't care if Pacman never plays again for the Titans. He makes our team look terrible. You can pretend to know my motives, Bill, but you can't actually know them. I feel sorry for him. Maybe I would feel sorry for Henry too if I had seen more of him and knew more about him. But I don't. I don't pay much attention to Bengals players. But I see plenty of Pacman. Yes, his loss to our team hurts real bad, but I'd rather cut him than have him continue to act up like this. I just don't think this is a good or fair solution.

I take it Bryant was actually found guilty?

But if you cut him and some other team picks him up, he's not going to learn anything. The Cowboys gave Terrell Owens a $5 million signing bonus and a $5 million roster bonus after T.O. used his prima-donna attitude to torpedo Philadelphia's season, even forcing the team to deactivate him to avoid further damage. Some guys, like T.O., are beyond help and are only going to believe what they want to believe. Is Pacman like that? I don't know. But if he'd just been cut, I guarantee another team would've picked him up within the week and he would've gotten into trouble with them.

I think this is the best decision. This is the kind of stance the NFL needs to take on this kind of behavior, so the public image of the NFL doesn't become that of the NBA at the time of the Malice In The Palace.

[Rimbo]

If you got arrested 10 times in the past 2 years, how would your employer react?

In fact, how many times would you have to get arrested before your employer reacted?

[Alan Dunkin]

11 times.

--- Alan

[Glenn]

It's worth remembering that in any field other than athletics or music, this guy would have been unemployable after, at most, three arrests. Jiffy Lube's just not going to tolerate that kind of bullshit.

[BaconTastesGood]

It's worth remembering that in any field other than athletics or music, this guy would have been unemployable after, at most, three arrests. Jiffy Lube's just not going to tolerate that kind of bullshit.

I'm not sure that's true. Most employers care about convictions, and only care about arrests when they A.) find out about them and/or B.) are impacted by your absence.

That's sort of the crux of the issue -- Pacman hasn't actually been convicted of anything.

I'm real curious what they're going to do to Tank Johnson.

[Glenn]

I'm not sure that's true.Skipping past the hyperbole, the whole reason your employer signs you to a conduct clause is so they can fire you when you become an embarrassment. I'm not exactly a moral philosopher, but the guy's paid as well as the average CEO, and if they want to tee off on him for PR purposes, I say have at it.

[Bill Dungsroman]

This discussion is fairly mind-boggling to me in some ways. 10+ arrests. Not 1, or 2, not even 5 which IMO is already beyond the pale. I can't believe anyone is defending Pacman or balking at his punishment. Too severe? He may only face a 10-game suspension, which is a paltry 1 game per incident proportion. Guys have gotten far more and yes, some far less, but I don't know how anyone can maintain Jones is just some poor guy who got railroaded.

[Glenn]

Exactly, this isn't some civil rights issue. The league doesn't have some responsibility to keep him employed while this specific instance gets sorted out. Arbitrary or not, fuck that idiot - ban him for life, then sit back and laugh as he tries to eek out a living in the Canadian Indoor Touch Football League.

[dannimal]

Skipping past the hyperbole, the whole reason your employer signs you to a conduct clause is so they can fire you when you become an embarrassment. I'm not exactly a moral philosopher, but the guy's paid as well as the average CEO, and if they want to tee off on him for PR purposes, I say have at it.

Right, but Jiffy Lube doesn't have conduct clauses (I'm guessing), which was your comparison.

If you got arrested 10 times over a few years, but it never caused you to miss a shift as the filter monkey at Jiffy Lube, you'd probably still be pulling down $12/hour or whatever.

But that's a false comparison, because we're not talking about anonymous slobs.

[SlyFrog]

Right, but Jiffy Lube doesn't have conduct clauses (I'm guessing), which was your comparison.

That's because they do not need them. You do not have as much protection at Jiffy Lube as an NFL player has. Jiffy Lube does not have to point to bad conduct to fire or suspend you. You are an at-will employee, and they can simply fire you without any reason whatsoever.

I heard a sportstalk guy babbling on about how this was terrible, because now we've gone to the point where it affects a player's ability to pay the light bill and put food on his table. I suppose that could be the case for some players. I imagine that PacMan, on the other hand, has already made more money in signing bonuses and salary to date in his few years of play as the average American will make in his entire life.

I think most people drafted in the first round of the NFL, in particular the first 10-15 players, could probably retire the day after receiving their signing bonus.

[dannimal]

Most could, if it weren't for the fact that signing bonuses aren't always paid out in one lump sum up front, and are also subject to revocation if you don't fulfill the contract (Ricky Williams retiring, for example).

Oh, and also the fact that when handed eleventy-billion dollars in signing bonus, players tend to spend it on extravagant stuff like pimped rides and cribs. If I'm to believe the television, anyway.

It's entirely possible that Pacman will not have enough cash to pay the bills for a year, meaning he'd need to sell stuff to get by. I don't give a crap. If someone says "I'll pay you more money than 99.9% of people will see in their lifetime to play football, but you have to stay out of too much trouble", and you go out and get arrested like you're trying to fill a bingo card I don't feel bad if you need to sell your tricked out H3 to pay the mortgage on your luxury home.

[Robert Sharp]

It's not 10 arrests. It's 10 incidents. People are including times that the police just questioned Pacman, ie where he was just at the scene of a crime. I don't think he has actually been arrested 10 times. I could be misremembering though.

[Bill Dungsroman]

It's not 10 arrests. It's 10 incidents. People are including times that the police just questioned Pacman, ie where he was just at the scene of a crime. I don't think he has actually been arrested 10 times. I could be misremembering though.
Okay, it's four arrests (not including the one from college) and a few other incidents where no arrest was made (http://bumpshack.com/2007/03/02/pacman-jones-criminal-record).

[Shmtur]

It's not 10 arrests. It's 10 incidents. People are including times that the police just questioned Pacman, ie where he was just at the scene of a crime. I don't think he has actually been arrested 10 times. I could be misremembering though.

Why are you making excuses for this scum? He defended the face stomp, he's gotten probation more than once, he's violated his contract (as others have said, there are clauses against this kind of behavior standard in NFL contracts), and yet you feel sorry for him?

He's a black eye on the league. I'm glad he's been suspended for a year.

[BlueJackalope]

Except for Rae Carruth, but I think the NFL didn't need to suspend him when he was thrown in jail for 18 years.

He really only get 18 years? Wtf?

[Robert Sharp]

Why are you making excuses for this scum? He defended the face stomp, he's gotten probation more than once, he's violated his contract (as others have said, there are clauses against this kind of behavior standard in NFL contracts), and yet you feel sorry for him?

He's a black eye on the league. I'm glad he's been suspended for a year.

I feel sorry for him as a person, because I think he has a skewed view of the world based on his upbringing. It doesn't excuse his actions, and he has to be punished for them and accept the consequences. I hope he gets that and it helps him grow up. He's far too immature and has very little emotional control. He also lost his parents and grew up in a terrible neighborhood. I believe he's already outlived his father (meaning he died that young). He's friends with drug dealers because that's what he knew growing up. I just think it's a shame. So yeah, I feel sorry for him. Think what you want about that.

[Matt Bowyer]

He really only get 18 years? Wtf?

According to Wikipedia, he was found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder but not guilty of first degree murder. 18-24 years.

[Bill Dungsroman]

I feel sorry for him as a person, because I think he has a skewed view of the world based on his upbringing. It doesn't excuse his actions, and he has to be punished for them and accept the consequences. I hope he gets that and it helps him grow up. He's far too immature and has very little emotional control. He also lost his parents and grew up in a terrible neighborhood. I believe he's already outlived his father (meaning he died that young). He's friends with drug dealers because that's what he knew growing up. I just think it's a shame. So yeah, I feel sorry for him. Think what you want about that.
He spits in women's faces and beats them up. Fuck him.

[Robert Sharp]

He spits in women's faces and beats them up. Fuck him.

Now you are just making things up. Where do you get the beats women up charge?

[Angrycoder]

I feel sorry for him as a person, because I think he has a skewed view of the world based on his upbringing. It doesn't excuse his actions, and he has to be punished for them and accept the consequences. I hope he gets that and it helps him grow up. He's far too immature and has very little emotional control. He also lost his parents and grew up in a terrible neighborhood. I believe he's already outlived his father (meaning he died that young). He's friends with drug dealers because that's what he knew growing up. I just think it's a shame. So yeah, I feel sorry for him. Think what you want about that.

Are you serious? You feel bad for a guy who had a rough childhood, but since then has had a golden opportunity thrown at him and is making MILLIONS of dollars a year? Feel bad for the 16 year old kid selling drugs, or the thousands that never make it out of their shitty situations and don't live past 30.

The only reason you feel bad for him, hell, the only reason you even know his fucking name, is because he can run fast and catch a ball. Otherwise, he's just another reason to lock your car door when you take the wrong exit off the highway.

[Shmtur]

That's sort of the crux of the issue -- Pacman hasn't actually been convicted of anything.

Now you are just making things up. Where do you get the beats women up charge?Well, to be fair, he hasn't been, y'know, convicted or anything, but from Bill's earlier link:

Feburary 19, 2007- The facts are disputed and no charges have been made yet, but Jones was in the middle of a fight and shooting at a strip club in Las Vegas that left one man paralyzed and two more wounded. The fight broke out after Jones showered strippers on stage with $81,000 dollars. The club owner claims Jones was beating a strippers head against the bar while claiming to kill one of the club’s employees.I'm sure you're going to want to dispute this, because no charges have been filed. He might still be worth your sympathy!

But.

July 13, 2005- Arrested and charged with assault and felony vandalism after a nightclub altercation. This began Pacman Jones NFL rap sheet.

October 2005- State of West Virginia filed a petition stating that Jones had not been contacting his probation officer and that he had not reported his July 2005 arrest. The judge extended the probation for 90 days.Still feel sorry for him? Here's where the fun part starts.

March 23, 2006- Charged with marijuana possession in Fayetteville, Georgia. He went on to claim that he knew how to beat the NFL’s drug test. Sure, one can claim weed isn't all that bad. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say the NFL doesn't enjoy being mocked like this. He's being willfully stupid here. At least they didn't catch him with a Whizzinator.

August 25, 2006- Arrested for disorderly conduct and public intoxication after being ordered by the cops to leave a Murfreesboro night club several times. Jones claimed a woman stole his wallet. The woman claimed that Jones spat on her. The judge in the case gave Pacman six months probation and told him to stay away from the club.

October 26, 2006- Jones was issued a citation for misdemeanor assault after a female student from Tennessee State University claimed that Jones spit in her face at a Nashville night club. So he spit on two different women in the span of two months. Classy guy.

And of course:

This doesn’t include his sentence of one year in prison for a bar fight in Morgantown, West Virginia while in college. The sentence was later suspended in exchange for two years of probation
Course, if you asked him, he'd probably say it's a good thing. The Titans need more thugs.

There has to be a point where personal responsibility comes into the picture. It's easy to lay blame on his upbringing, his posse/friends/crew/whateverthefuck, or the need to make it rain when coming into a lot of money all at once (and I'm sure we've all felt this need at some point) but the only person responsible for his actions, ultimately, is him.

I'm glad to see Goodell holding him responsible for his actions. Just so long as he stays consistent with this precedent.

One last quote:
"We gotta slow down, man. We gotta get him focused on football, man. He's focused on too much other s****,"

"You know, I was talkin' to him the other day about smokin', and he was like ‘man, if I didn't smoke I couldn't take all the stress that I'm dealing with right now,'"

"Fisher's being as patient as a m*****f***** as he can. Fisher gotta win. Fisher trying to win...He ain't putting up with that s***,"

"He gotta concentrate on season...that ******* drug test coming up," he said. "We telling him he needed 33 days before he took his ******* test; dry-out, and he didn't...that's let me know right there that he ain't taking his ****** job serious."

When a convicted drug dealer (http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=6146420) says he's spiraling out of control, it might be time to stop defending him.

Save your sympathy for someone who deserves it.

[Stroker Ace]

More Pacman!
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2907734&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines
ATLANTA -- Suspended NFL player Adam "Pacman" Jones was being sought by police for questioning about a shooting early Monday involving members of his entourage after a fight at an Atlanta strip club.

Jones, a cornerback for the Tennessee Titans on suspension following a melee and shooting at a Las Vegas strip club, his group and three other people got into a fight, apparently over a woman, at a club around 4 a.m., officer Ariel Toledo said.

[Robert Sharp]

It's not him...it's ummm....oh, fuck it.

[Stroker Ace]

I feel sorry for Vince Young. He had an amazing rookie season, but he won't be putting up nearly as many Ws without Pacman's return game to bail him out :(

[Robert Sharp]

Ummm...there's a chance that Vince will actually improve as a QB, too. That might help him win some games.

[BlueJackalope]

I feel sorry for Vince Young. He had an amazing rookie season, but he won't be putting up nearly as many Ws without Pacman's return game to bail him out :(

I can spot a few problems with looking to Pacman to bail you out of anything. Even if he hadn't been suspended this season he would have done something else to get himself suspended or killed.

'Sides aint you heard? All Vince does is win football games. That's all he does!

[Stroker Ace]

I'm not saying Vince isn't awesome, I just hate that he's losing the highest profile member of his supporting cast.

[Brendan]

Reading this thread makes me feel old fashioned.

Am I the only one who believes that sportsmen and women should try to be good role models for kids?

[Stroker Ace]

How are pro athletes good role models? A kid aspiring to be one has a 99% chance of crushing failure.

[dannimal]

Not "role model" in the sense of "be a pro athlete just like me" but in the sense of "setting an example of how to act as a adult male/female on and off the field".

It's the same argument that Barkley crushed years ago (at least, in terms of himself as a role model).

[Stroker Ace]

I'd imagine that there's no tangible reward to being a "good guy" as long as you are civil enough to keep your sponsors happy. When you make a million plus a year, it's probably hard to maintain perspective.

[BaconTastesGood]

I'm not saying Vince isn't awesome, I just hate that he's losing the highest profile member of his supporting cast.

Losing Travis Henry and Drew Bennett I think are going to hurt him much more. That was his running game -- and are Lendale "Michelin Man" White and Chris "Mamula 2.0" Henry going to save that running game? Think not.

But think of it this way -- he's got a pre-made excuse if things don't work out this year, and if things do, everyone can play the "He carried the team on his back!" card just like Vick does.

[BaconTastesGood]

Reading this thread makes me feel old fashioned.

Am I the only one who believes that sportsmen and women should try to be good role models for kids?

Many of them are, but that's not newsworthy. The media doesn't care about decent guys and their various charitable foundations and work with at-risk kids. I don't have a link handy, but IIRC the incidence of arrest and/or convictions for NFL players is lower than that of the national average.

[dannimal]

I'd imagine that there's no tangible reward to being a "good guy" as long as you are civil enough to keep your sponsors happy. When you make a million plus a year, it's probably hard to maintain perspective.

I didn't say they should be, I was just providing some detail about what people usually mean when they say pro athletes should be role models. Personally, I tend to be more on Barkley's side of the argument.

[Stroker Ace]

Please share The Mound's thoughts with the class.

[Matthew Gallant]

I don't have a link handy, but IIRC the incidence of arrest and/or convictions for NFL players is lower than that of the national average.
This study, it compares pro athletes to the entire nation, or to other U.S. millionaires, or what?

[Stroker Ace]

That did sound like a meaningless statistic.

[Rimbo]

Not "role model" in the sense of "be a pro athlete just like me" but in the sense of "setting an example of how to act as a adult male/female on and off the field".

It's the same argument that Barkley crushed years ago (at least, in terms of himself as a role model).

Crushed so hard, that not one black kid growing up in the inner city or deep south wants to play basketball.

[Patrick]

I think its a good thing for Vince that they suspended him. With the frequency of guns going off around Pacman if he was still on the team Vince would probably catch a stray bullet.

[dannimal]

Crushed so hard, that not one black kid growing up in the inner city or deep south wants to play basketball.

Pay attention.

Barkley made a big fuss about how he WASN'T a role model, and wasn't going to try to be one. Thus, he crushed the argument (in terms of himself) years ago that all athletes should be role models.

Not to mention you managed to ignore the first half of the post you quoted.

[Rimbo]

Wait.

The whole reason CB said "I'm not a role model" was because he didn't want black kids to want to be basketball players, not because he didn't want black kids to behave themselves.

It didn't work out that way, which is why I'm wondering exactly how he "crushed" that argument.

[Glenn]

This study, it compares pro athletes to the entire nation, or to other U.S. millionaires, or what?Here's a summary (http://www.amstat.org/pressroom/index.cfm?fuseaction=nflcrime), but the link to actual journal article doesn't work.

In "Criminal Violence of NFL Players Compared to the General Population" (Chance, Vol. 12, No. 3, Summer 1999, pp. 12-15), Chance authors present data that demonstrate the violent crime rate among professional football players is actually less than that among other males of the same age and race.

Benedict and Yaegar collected data concerning arrest records of 509 NFL players. Their book reports that 21 percent of 509 NFL players had been arrested for something more serious than a minor brush with the law.

[dannimal]

Wait.

The whole reason CB said "I'm not a role model" was because he didn't want black kids to want to be basketball players, not because he didn't want black kids to behave themselves.

It didn't work out that way, which is why I'm wondering exactly how he "crushed" that argument.

"I am not a role model" and his opinions on society and the media and what they did/do to black kids are seperate (although loosely connected) ideas.

The former was a call for parents to do their jobs (and indirectly for the media to stop putting athletes both on pedestals and under microscopes), and not let it fall to athletes to be examples of how to act. That's the argument he crushed (which I've said more than once now), since he's never made an effort to change who he was or what he said/thought for the benefit of others, and continued to be pretty successful in his life after basketball. Barkley shouldn't be a role model, and neither should Tim Duncan, Peyton Manning, Pacman Jones, Barry Bonds, or Derek Jeter.

The latter isn't so much "I don't want black kids to want to be basketball players" as it is "I want black kids to be able to want to be other things", and objecting to the media and society combining to convince black kids that baseketball (or pro athletics period) is the only option/way out. I doubt that Barkley wanted LeBron James to want to be something other an a basketball player when LeBron was 16. I'd also bet that if a kid wants to be a pro athlete, but at the same time is getting an education and preparing for the (more likely outcome) chance it might not happen, that'd he'd be fine with that too.

[Rimbo]

I'm still having a rough time seeing how his comments have crushed anything, or even had any more of an effect than pissing in the wind. It has provided good fodder for internet yackology, I'll grant it that, but this is not a battle that's won by having the best one-liners. It's a battle that's one by having black parents take care of their kids and for black kids to start taking school seriously.

[Robert Sharp]

One guy (a cop? former cop?) said that he heard Pacman say "Fuck it, I'm going to my car to get my gun" or something essentially along those lines. If it's true....wow. If it isn't, the fact that we can easily imagine it to be true is a problem for Pacman at this point.

[sluggo]

Suspended Tennessee Titans cornerback Adam 'Pacman' Jones to debut on wrestling show (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-titans-pacman&prov=ap&type=lgns)

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- Suspended Tennessee Titans cornerback Adam "Pacman" Jones is ready to step into the wrestling ring.

He signed a contract with Total Nonstop Action Wrestling and will make his in-ring debut on Thursday, the company said Monday. Terms of the deal were not disclosed.

Jones' first appearance will be for its iMPACT! show on Spike TV, and he'll appear in a pay-per-view show on Sunday. TNA films at Universal Studios in Orlando, Fla.

"I am a big fan of wrestling, so I wanted to give it a try," Jones said in a statement. "I respect wrestling and I'm not coming in like it's just a show. I want to prove that I am the greatest team-sport athlete."

Jones' NFL contract prohibits non-football activities that could cause injury. Jones' agent said last week that they had talked with the Titans about Jones' plans with TNA.

TNA spokesman Steven Godfrey said officials could not comment on whether Jones actually will wrestle.

"But he will be involved in a story line," Godfrey said.

The Titans were on the practice field Monday morning, and coach Jeff Fisher couldn't immediately be contacted for reaction. Titans chief operating officer Steve Underwood didn't immediately respond to a request for comment.

Jones was suspended in April for the 2007 season by NFL commissioner Roger Goodell for conduct detrimental to the league. He dropped his appeal of that punishment in June.

Goodell was asked about Jones' wrestling activities when he visited the Titans' camp Saturday. Goodell said it was up to Jones to decide what's in his best interest as he tries to earn his way back onto the field.

"I've often said that it's not about what you say, it's about what you do," Goodell said. "It's your actions. And I think the actions will have to determine that."

[Robert Sharp]

The Titans have told him NOT to wrestle, so I don't think he will. If he does, it will further prove that he doesn't give a shit about the Titans, and this point I'm pretty sure Pacman is trying to do the opposite. Since the titans said no, I'm guessing he'll be a ref.

[dannimal]

Ref, "manager", "special enforcer", whatever. It'd be interesting to see if he takes a bump at all, though.

[sluggo]

Pacman 'attacked' in wrestling match (http://www.yahoo.com/s/650631)

This guy's a clown. I hope they never let him back in the NFL.

[Stroker Ace]

What's so bad about appearing in a televised wrestling event? Are professional athletes above such nonsense? He gets money, PR, and fun out of it.

[dannimal]

Please, this is no big deal. Baseball players have done it. David Eckstein appeared with A.J. Pierzynski on a TNA PPV and got into a "fight". Brian Urlacher made at least one TNA appearance, as has Johnny Damon. Kyle Vanden Bosch (a fellow Titan) was in the corner a match recently (although not involved physically). The White Sox strength and conditioning coach is Dale Torborg, who did a stint in WCW (pre WWF buyout) as The Demon (started out KISS-related, then the co-branding died out).

Granted, I don't know how common it is for a player to take part in a wrestling bit while his sport is actively in season (although frequently local athletes can be seen in front or near-front row seats), but Pacman isn't playing this year.

The Titans are well within their right to point out that his contract has a clause that prohibits him from doing this kind of stuff, and that's why they re-worked it so that he was attacked off-camera.

But this isn't any different at the core than the Milwaukee Brewers players appearing on a daytime soap opera. Of all the reasons not to want Pacman back in the NFL, this is pretty much at the bottom of the list.

[BlueJackalope]

Please, this is no big deal. Baseball players have done it. David Eckstein appeared with A.J. Pierzynski on a TNA PPV and got into a "fight". Brian Urlacher made at least one TNA appearance, as has Johnny Damon. Kyle Vanden Bosch (a fellow Titan) was in the corner a match recently (although not involved physically). The White Sox strength and conditioning coach is Dale Torborg, who did a stint in WCW (pre WWF buyout) as The Demon (started out KISS-related, then the co-branding died out).

Granted, I don't know how common it is for a player to take part in a wrestling bit while his sport is actively in season (although frequently local athletes can be seen in front or near-front row seats), but Pacman isn't playing this year.

The Titans are well within their right to point out that his contract has a clause that prohibits him from doing this kind of stuff, and that's why they re-worked it so that he was attacked off-camera.

But this isn't any different at the core than the Milwaukee Brewers players appearing on a daytime soap opera. Of all the reasons not to want Pacman back in the NFL, this is pretty much at the bottom of the list.

As much as any one does or doesn't like him he has a right to earn money. Wrestling has always been a place for some one with a little bit of infamy can cash in on it.

A pro wrestler (Jeff Torborg's son...I didn't know, but then I stopped watching WCW around the time the Demon started appearing) is the Sox strength coach? Nah, Baseball doesn't have a steroid problem.

[dannimal]

Well, his right to earn money is limited by clauses in the contract he signed. But, I agree with you in general in that wrestling is a lark and he's not blazing a trail here.

Torborg has bounced from team to team as a trainer/conditioning type (he was with the Marlins before the White Sox). Honestly, he never amounted to anything as a wrestler, so it's entirely possible that he's not a steroid advocate. Come to think about it, I believe most/all of his gimmicks involved covering up as much of his body as possible (possibly to hide a less ripped physique). The Demon, his break-in gimmick of "The MVP", which had him wearing what amounted to a baseball uni...

There are wrestlers (Ric Flair, I'm looking at you, you flabby old man) who don't look like they're on the juice. It's obviously the rule rather than the exception, but we can't just paint Torborg with that brush out of hand (and, looking at the White Sox HR drought this year...)

[BlueJackalope]

Well, his right to earn money is limited by clauses in the contract he signed. But, I agree with you in general in that wrestling is a lark and he's not blazing a trail here.

Torborg has bounced from team to team as a trainer/conditioning type (he was with the Marlins before the White Sox). Honestly, he never amounted to anything as a wrestler, so it's entirely possible that he's not a steroid advocate. Come to think about it, I believe most/all of his gimmicks involved covering up as much of his body as possible (possibly to hide a less ripped physique). The Demon, his break-in gimmick of "The MVP", which had him wearing what amounted to a baseball uni...

There are wrestlers (Ric Flair, I'm looking at you, you flabby old man) who don't look like they're on the juice. It's obviously the rule rather than the exception, but we can't just paint Torborg with that brush out of hand (and, looking at the White Sox HR drought this year...)

http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/pictures/d/daletorborg/02.jpg

He was doing alright*, if in dire need of a depilatory. It was a horrible gimmick, even for the WCW. Flair's gotta be about 60 we should all be so flabby.

*I got no reason to think he was juicin' either. Just kinda funny that he'd be involved in baseball.

[dannimal]

That's actually "better" than I remember. My bad. Although, for good reason, my memories of The Demon are not crystal clear. This was the time of Master P and the No Limit Soldiers, too, so crappy cross-branding gimmicks were a dime a dozen.

Flair looks like a mildly overweight old guy who eats well. And has saggy, flabby man boobs. Kind of like if Phil Mickelson lost the gut and aged 25 years.

As for Torborg and baseball, his dad managed for ages (most recently the 2005, I think, Marlins) so he grew up around the game, and has a lot of ins in the network of owners.