Xbox 360 "Zephyr" in Late April

[Jazar]

UPDATE: It's OFFICIAL

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/xbox360elite/default.htm

Found on GAF. Looks like it will be announced Soon. Game Informer has the scoop. It's been rumored forever.

- HDMI Connection
- 120 GB Hard Drive - will not include tranfer cable.
- Black Chassis
- Coming in April 29
- Price: $479.99
- Same old disc drive and processors.
- The new model will be a permanent addition to the 360 product line, and not a limited edition.
- 120 GB HD will be sold separately for $180 - will include transfer cable.

[DaveC]

Found on GAF. Looks like it will be announced Soon. Game Informer has the scoop. It's been rumored forever.

- HDMI Connection
- 120 GB Hard Drive
- Black Chassis
- Coming in late April
- Expected Price: $479.99
- 120 GB HD will be sold separately for under $200.

I'll believe it when MS actually announces it and not a moment before.

[forgeforsaken]

They really don't need to launch a higher end model right now. They aren't getting beat by the PS3 right now so why try and compete with it bullet point for bullet point?

I hope that HD upgrade is well below $200 too, as I'd consider upgrading for more space but I expect it's going to be way overpriced. It's in MS' best interest for people to get more space too, with the way they are pushing downloadable content.

[mono]

- 120 GB HD will be sold separately for under $200.
That's awful sporting of them, since you can buy a 120GB drive for about $50 bucks these days. If they're gonna sell HD content, why not just let you attach an external HD to the system? They can even use some proprietary encryption on it if they don't want folks poking around on it.

[tromik]

I bought my 360 five months ago for $495 Canadian, so this kind of ticks me off. Now in order to get the 120GB drive, I'll have spent $700, and I still won't have an HDMI output.

Will MS make this up to people who are buying 360 from now until this new one is released?

[Balasarius]

$400? Sure.

$480? Fuck you.

Edit - Also, fuck their lack of built-in wireless.

[John Reynolds]

Will this "Zephyr" update include the die shrink for the chips? Also hope it includes a quieter drive since the 360s I've heard sound like screaming banshees with that drive spinning.

[Vincent_GC]

I believe it when I hear it officially from microsoft.

That, and no HDMI makes this not worth my money. I'll pick up the larger HD on it's own sometime later

[Crater]

This is why I bought the extended warranty from Micro Center. So when my 360 eventually dies, I can go get the fancy shmancy new model.

[gamadict]

Feel like that's a bad idea for MS. Few are really demanding these features. Why risk potentially raising the perceived cost of the unit, especially when that's sinking the PS3 right now? Wait until you can get this stuff into the premium for $399

[Coca Cola Zero]

Sounds like a mistake. If they toss this out there for about 500 bucks and don't integrate HD-DVD playing on the unit somehow theyll do more to make the PS3 price look reasonable than Sony has ever done.


And if the 120 gb HD upgrade is anywhere near $200 that's also a big mistake. As others have mentioned, that's just way more than anyone should expect to pay for that kind of space even if you factor in the custom form factor and all of that. And they should be making this shit as cheap as possible considering the reason I want the bigger HD is so I can spend money filling it up with content from their services.

[MatthewF]

Well, since I just lost my 360 to an ex-girlfriend, I'll hold out to buy this if it's for real. I've been wanting HDMI for a long, long time.

[Jake Plane]

Nice - because when it hits is when you can likely expect a price drop for the 360 as a whole.

[Andrew Mayer]

Nice - because when it hits is when you can likely expect a price drop for the 360 as a whole.

Maybe. But then they'd better up the drive size. I'm guessing that 20G drives aren't really that much cheaper than ones much larger these days anyway.

[rjcc]

so its allegedly official....yet there are no actual pictures of the supposed "two page game in former spread" on the subject.

And everything mentioned so far is exactly the same as the rumors that were swirling when that issue of the mag went to print.

microsoft hasn't dropped any announcements via magazine article as opposed to immediate press release before, why are we to believe that they're suddenly switching to this so easily leaked strategy for an announcement you'd think they would want to keep secret until it happens?

until someone actually sees said article or microsoft actually puts out a press release, this is completely rumor.

ohm, and here's the actual thread in case anyone wants to watch for actual info to come out: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=146700

[Chris Nahr]

$480? Fuck you.

Edit - Also, fuck their lack of built-in wireless.

Seriously. $480 and still an unbelievable $99 extra for wi-fi? The feature that Nintendo sells for about the same price, except with an entire handheld console attached? Fuck you, Microsoft.

[jim crawford]

On a board full of professional writers, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned how inappropriate the name is.

[Damien Neil]

$99 wi-fi and $200 hard drives (if this rumor is true) are the reason I hope Sony pulls out of their disastrous beginning with the PS3. For all their fuckups, they're doing the right thing with regards to peripherals, and they deserve to be rewarded for it.

[Draikin]

I'm pretty sure even Peter Moore doesn't know what the Zephyr will be. They have a new motherboard with 65nm CPU, HDMI output and a black case. Decisions about release date, price and accesories can be made as late as one month before release.

[Lunch of Kong]

Decisions about release date, price and accesories can be made as late as one month before release.

I think you are mistaken. There's testing, FCC & UL certifications, assembly line tooling, & more to consider.

[Draikin]

My console was manufactured in august and waited 3 months to be put in a box together with a bunch of cables, a controller and Gears of War.

[Midnight Son]

They are targeting the "PS3 price gap" to get mo money.

[forgeforsaken]

I think they started designing this thing thinking they were going to be battling the PS3 pretty heavily and needed to better match it feature for feature and needed HDMI etc. The reality so far has proven out pretty different in the states so far, and as I said, MS really needs to look long and hard at the past two months NPDs before coming to market with a more expensive system.

[Ben Sones]

Releasing this stuff as a seperate, more expensive SKU is a terrible idea. I was hoping that MS was easing off the multiple SKU nonsense (I haven't seen any Core systems around, lately), which was a bad idea to begin with. A stealth hardware revision of the existing box, with no price change, would be smart. Releasing a cheap hard drive replacement and keeping the existing hardware the same, with a decent price drop, would be smarter. Sony has zero momentum right now, and MS has a unique opportunity to keep it that way for the forseeable future by cashing in on Sony's pricing miscalculations. Offering more expensive hardware is like joining Sony in the idiot corner.

Still, this is just a rumor. I'll believe it when I see some official confirmation.

[Jake Plane]

True. But they could release this SKU, retain pricing... and then when they feel they need to... drop the price on BOTH, offering the zephyr for the premium price and the other for the core cost

[Ben Sones]

That seems logical on the face of it, but I think it's still a problem in terms of consumer perception. Nobody talks about the 360 as a $300 gaming machine, even though they have a SKU at that price. People do bitch about how the next gen consoles are so expensive, though--again, even though you can get a 360 for the same price as a last-gen console. And everyone bitches about how they aren't going to pay $600 just to get a PS3, even though they don't have to.

In the consumer's eyes, the price of your premium system is the price of your system. That should be blatantly obvious to all of the console makers by now, and they should just give up with this whole tiered pricing business, which simply doesn't do what they wanted it to do.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Nice - because when it hits is when you can likely expect a price drop for the 360 as a whole.
*Prays Jake Plane is right*

[JD]

Many stores in the UK have dropped the price of the Premium version already, and here in Germany some of the biggest chains have been selling it for the price of the Core (€299) since last week. It's been rumoured that this might be a 'disguised' price drop made possible by discounts stores receive on 360 software. There also was speculation that retail will phase out the Core version slowly.

-Julian

[DaveC]

Maybe. But then they'd better up the drive size. I'm guessing that 20G drives aren't really that much cheaper than ones much larger these days anyway.

Very true. At that point you are mostly paying for the mechanical and electronic parts.

[Jason Cross]

I bought my 360 five months ago for $495 Canadian, so this kind of ticks me off. Now in order to get the 120GB drive, I'll have spent $700, and I still won't have an HDMI output.

Will MS make this up to people who are buying 360 from now until this new one is released?

Of course not, just as Sony and Nintendo and everyone else don't "make it up to" the buyers of the first-gen product when the second gen comes out. I didn't get a refund or free games or anything when the vastly superior DS Lite hit the market.

I don't know if GAF is correct, but I expect the hard drive price to be a ripoff. The going rate for a 120GB laptop hard drive (those are laptop drives in the 360) is $90-100 on Newegg. I fully expect Microsoft to way overcharge for it, by like double. Just like they do on RAM, just like everyone does on memory cards and controllers and so on. The accessories are huge mark-up items, unfortunately.

If they do this Zephyr thing, the right thing to do is to make it the new Premium SKU at $399, knock the current premium (including wireless controller and component cables) down to $299, and sell the core for like $199. Maybe scrap the core altogether except in specific regions that are especially price-sensitive (India, for example).

[Gendal]

Once they release the 120gb you should be able to hack your own easily. From what I understand you need an encryption key specific to your HD size, so once the 120's are out in the wild and somebody posts it, we should all be golden.

[Hetz]

Wow, big mistake Microsoft. The weak point of the PS3 is it's cost. Now you are going to be almost as much, but without anykind of optical HD drive.

Bad, bad move.

[DennyA]

Just to clarify, since some people seem to be taking this topic as gospel... Microsoft hasn't announced anything about anything called "Zephyr" or any possible updated 360 models. This is all rumor mill stuff.

Rumors are fun, but everyone remember the Nintendo Revolution Helmet. :)

[Edit: When I first saw a link to this rumor posted, it didn't include the HDMI port, which is a pretty key feature.]

[stusser]

Total ripoff obviously on the price.

But more interestingly, I've also seen rumors that the old 360 premium would be sold for $300. Now that's a tasty meatball.

[RickH]

The issue that immediately pops into my mind is data transfer for people who want to swap out their 20gig drive for a 120. I hope they implement redownloading of XBLA games with offline play enabled, otherwise it's going to encourage 360 owners to buy 3rd party HD accessories.

[Kadath]

I've filled my current hard drive and had to start deleting. Double size or more is an abslute must, 120 seems too small to me for that price.

They need an EASY migration path from hard disk to hard disk too.

[tromik]

Of course not, just as Sony and Nintendo and everyone else don't "make it up to" the buyers of the first-gen product when the second gen comes out. I didn't get a refund or free games or anything when the vastly superior DS Lite hit the market.
The DS doesn't have the online community that the 360 has, so the Lite didn't segregate the market the way this new 360 could. With the original 360 SKUs, you could at least buy everything for your 'tard pack to make it exactly like the premium edition. plus you knew when you bought your 'tard pack that there was a "better" pack out there. No one told me that my 360 might be wouldn't be the premium edition come 2007.

I play on a VGA monitor, so the HDMI doesn't worry me, except for making me think it's going to give someone a bit of an advantage in R6:Vegas.

[Charles]

I want an HDMI xbox but for that much cash I don't think I could justify it. Even if I could sell my current 360 for a reasonable amount, that's still a pretty big gap.

[rjcc]

The DS doesn't have the online community that the 360 has, so the Lite didn't segregate the market the way this new 360 could. With the original 360 SKUs, you could at least buy everything for your 'tard pack to make it exactly like the premium edition. plus you knew when you bought your 'tard pack that there was a "better" pack out there. No one told me that my 360 might be wouldn't be the premium edition come 2007.

I play on a VGA monitor, so the HDMI doesn't worry me, except for making me think it's going to give someone a bit of an advantage in R6:Vegas.

how does this -- potentially, remember, contrary to the statement in the OP it's still total rumor -- segregate the market in a way the the ds didn't because of online play?

[Jancelot]

Well, thankfully 1) this is till speculation and likely a testing of the waters and 2) they're not force feeding an unnecessary proprietary HD format down our throats like goddamn Sony. If you look at this rumor they will be lowering the price on the existing configurations while offering the new one at a higher price. MS is doing a whole helluva lot right for gamers. While they obviously don't get everything right out of the gate they are listening to their user base unlike their competitors. (Yes, Wii is great but F-U with your 16 digit game specific friend codes).

[Jake Plane]

Guess what? Ford is releasing a new model car next year.

This just in... A new special edition DVD with added footage/scenes/commentary of your favorite movie is also soon to be re-released

Developing... PSP Slim is also coming soon...

Lastly, also likely being released this year: a Wii with a DVD drive built-in.

None of these offerings *screw* consumers; they simply broaden the offerings. In all of the above cases, the companies are actually reacting to consumer demand and are trying to broaden their hold on the market. Screwing the consumer would actually be the opposite - releasing a product and then turning a deaf ear to the feedback received from the marketplace.

[Jazar]

If you look at this rumor they will be lowering the price on the existing configurations while offering the new one at a higher price.

I wouldn't count on MS lowering the pricepoint for any of the existing models just yet. This is just another option: 299 Core; 399 Premium; 479 Deluxe.

[rjcc]

I wouldn't count on MS lowering the pricepoint for any of the existing models just yet. This is just another option: 299 Core; 399 Premium; 479 Deluxe.

you're sure? has anyone actually seen the article with the scoop yet to confirm this?

[Hetz]

MS isn't lowering any prices. That part of the rumor proved to be untrue.

They are just adding the new SKU.

[Jazar]

I'm not sure but their sales are good enough where I see no reason for them to drop it.

[Ben Sones]

MS isn't lowering any prices. That part of the rumor proved to be untrue.

No part of the rumor has proven to be true or untrue, unless you count people at GAF being convinced or unconvinced as "confirmation."

[Bill Dungsroman]

Guess what? Ford is releasing a new model car next year.

This just in... A new special edition DVD with added footage/scenes/commentary of your favorite movie is also soon to be re-released

Developing... PSP Slim is also coming soon...

Lastly, also likely being released this year: a Wii with a DVD drive built-in.

None of these offerings *screw* consumers; they simply broaden the offerings. In all of the above cases, the companies are actually reacting to consumer demand and are trying to broaden their hold on the market. Screwing the consumer would actually be the opposite - releasing a product and then turning a deaf ear to the feedback received from the marketplace.
But...but Jake, they're Micro$oft. They are evil and stuff. Just ask Midnight Son!

[rjcc]

But...but Jake, they're Micro$oft. They are evil and stuff. Just ask Midnight Son!

WE'RE ALL GONNA LOSE NOW AT RAINBOW SIX, TO HDMI-ENABLED SHARPSHOOTERS WHO CAN SEE EVERYTHING!!!

[tromik]

how does this -- potentially, remember, contrary to the statement in the OP it's still total rumor -- segregate the market in a way the the ds didn't because of online play?
Not sure what I was thinking when I wrote that. In my nutty mind I am worried about the HDMIers who can see everything.

Or I was making a bad joke. Point is, I want a free one.

[Jason Cross]

I play on a VGA monitor, so the HDMI doesn't worry me, except for making me think it's going to give someone a bit of an advantage in R6:Vegas.

I think a lot of the people here are making too big a deal out of HDMI.

Unless you just want to run a single cable with audio + video into your home theater amp (and then another HDMI cable to your TV) or unless your TV just has ultra-crappy component inputs for some reason, you're just not going to see that much difference. Most of the "major difference! OMG!" people will claim is psychological. Perform a blind test and they probably wouldn't be able to tell you which one is HDMI and which is component.

I've seen the same HD-DVD player, blu-ray player, and PS3 hooked up to a VERY nice 1080p TV in our HDTV lab at work, both via component and HDMI. The differences are so minor, you can't tell just by walking in the room. You'd need to ask someone which way they're plugged in.

The HDMI 1.3 spec is nice in that it provides enough bandwidth to drive very hi-res displays (like those 30" dell monitors at 2560x1600) and can drive more than 8-bit per component output for high dynamic range displays. But there are no HDR displays, the final frame buffers for every single 360 and PS3 game are 8-bit per component for bandwidth reasons, etc etc.

I expect that a lot of gamers expecting miracle image quality improvement through HDMI are going to be sorely disappointed when they hook up their new HDMI-enabled xbox, whenever that is. (Others will claim miraculous improvements in visuals, and a few who have jacked-up TVs that process component video extremely poorly may even truly see a marked difference).

It's definitely not going to give anyone a game advantage.

[Charles]

I expect that a lot of gamers expecting miracle image quality improvement through HDMI are going to be sorely disappointed when they hook up their new HDMI-enabled xbox, whenever that is. (Others will claim miraculous improvements in visuals, and a few who have jacked-up TVs that process component video extremely poorly may even truly see a marked difference).

I mostly want it so I can use my single set of component inputs for my old consoles. That being said, HDMI will be nice because regardless of cable quality, I can still see light ghosting in specific scenarios. So HDMI will be nice to get rid of that.

[awdougherty]

I definitely agree with Jason about the visual differences being small between HDMI and component from my experience.

For me, I would love the HDMI Xbox just to clear up a component input for a future Wii purchase.

[Ephraim]

I definitely agree with Jason about the visual differences being small between HDMI and component from my experience.

For me, I would love the HDMI Xbox just to clear up a component input for a future Wii purchase.

I guess VGA isn't an option for you? I bought the X360 VGA cables the day my Wii's component cable came in (yeah, only one component input on the Dell 24" I'm currently stuck using) and it looks great. The upscaled to 1080p DVDs are pretty nice, too. They're not HD DVD or Blu-ray, but they look really good to my eyes, and no HDMI required!

[awdougherty]

It actually could be an option, but I thought I heard something disparaging about image quality (for certain games).

[stusser]

When playing games or watching movies DVI/HDMI vs VGA/component isn't a big deal. It only really matters when you're reading text, browsing the web, etc. Surely some of you have tried the VGA cable on your LCD monitors, right? It's like that.

[MatthewF]

The biggest difference between VGA and HDMI is the pure digital connection. For people with interference problems (my apartment complex has a lot) HDMI eliminates those. For example, I used to use a VGA connection from my PC to my HD set, and I'd have a constant vertical scanline slowly running down the screen. After switching to DVI (same digital video format as HDMI) the scanline disappeared. I honestly didn't notice much else difference.

[Balasarius]

My cable box is hooked up to my HDTV via HDMI.

When the HDMI input on my TV went on the fritz, I had to switch to component inputs.

Looked like pure ASS.

I'll buy a $400 360 with HDMI output. Easy.

[forgeforsaken]

I've actually found that my cable box looks better out component than HDMI.

[rjcc]

My cable box is hooked up to my HDTV via HDMI.

When the HDMI input on my TV went on the fritz, I had to switch to component inputs.

Looked like pure ASS.

I'll buy a $400 360 with HDMI output. Easy.

soomething in your setup is either not working, or misconfigured. there is no way there should be that big of a difference.

[makore]

Anyone know what the current trade in value of a core system for Gamestop is?

[Moore]

A little under half what they sell them for, is the usual.

[Jason Cross]

I've actually found that my cable box looks better out component than HDMI.

So much of this whole thing has to do with a lot of steps in the chain.

You have your source device (cable box or DVD player or game box) and your TV, and possibly some home AV equipment in-between. The quality of one input versus another is going to depend on how the quality (and settings, sometimes hidden!) for your output device. A cable box might have shitty component output, unless you change a few things in the service menu. Most HDTVs do not process digital and analog inputs the same, and you might even be missing out on important video processing using a digital connection. And of course, your TV might have different settings for those different inputs, so you need to properly adjust it with different settings for component vs. HDMI/DVI.

It's all senselessly complicated, but don't think for a second that using HDMI just clears it all up. It's gonna be worse for some people.

As for sharpness on reading text and the like - I can do that really well on my HDTV with component out of my PS3. It's as sharp as my TV is capable of.

[slantz]

I wouldn't count on MS lowering the pricepoint for any of the existing models just yet. This is just another option: 299 Core; 399 Premium; 479 Deluxe.
I have reason to think that this is the most accurate take on things. It's loose and anecdotal evidence, but it did come from a source who's in the thick of things.

I know that's hardly definitive, but it *was* enough to convince me.

[EvilIdler]

My LCD is connected to one of the computers via VGA through a switcher
shared with the Xbox 360. I can't tell the difference when opening webpages in
Opera on either computer, and the 360 uses larger fonts for everything. Maybe
my eyes just haven't gone bad yet :P

[stusser]

Looks like it's not a rumor (http://kotaku.com/gaming/top/rumor-game-mag-validates-black-xbox-360-245472.php). Meh.

[Jazar]

http://blog.dreamhost.com/images/arnold.jpg
"It's not a rumor!"

[MatthewF]

I'd just like to point out that the debug kits are more of a dark grey than a black, definitely not the color shown in the image linked in the story. That said, I guess they could have just played around in photoshop; hell, that could just be a photoshopped white box.

But I really do hope it's true.

[Jake Plane]

Originally:
Core = $299 (no hard drive)
Premium = $399 (small hard drive, no HDMI)

Given that the Zephyr is coming in at $479 (and with a large hard drive and HDMI) does this mean we can expect a small price drop for the premium - to $379?

[Kunikos]

Shwing.

I wonder though if it comes bundled with any different accessories or demo games or something...?

Regardless, Mass Effect is gonna kick ass on HDMI. ;)

[DaveC]

Since my TV doesn't do 1080p HDMI isn't going to really mean anything to me and as much as I'd love more HD space we still can't get TV shows over Live in Canada so there isn't much use.

[Podunk]

Now Engadget (http://robots.engadget.com/2007/03/20/xbox-360-elite-new-black-limited-edition-xbox-with-hdmi-and-120gb-drive/) is saying that the new SKU ("Elite") will be a limited edition piece of hardware retailing at $479, and some time after it's sold out--Engadget suggests this Summer or Fall--the new features will be incorporated into the Premium SKU. That might be a nice way to go in lieu of a price drop for the Premium.

[Andrew Mayer]

Now Engadget (http://robots.engadget.com/2007/03/20/xbox-360-elite-new-black-limited-edition-xbox-with-hdmi-and-120gb-drive/) is saying that the new SKU ("Elite") will be a limited edition piece of hardware retailing at $479, and some time after it's sold out--Engadget suggests this Summer or Fall--the new features will be incorporated into the Premium SKU. That might be a nice way to go in lieu of a price drop for the Premium.

That's kind of scary. If it turns out to be a crap unit it'll be nothing but refurbs all the way down the line...

[Case]

That's kind of scary. If it turns out to be a crap unit it'll be nothing but refurbs all the way down the line...

So just wait for the standard white, updated version. All the same features, except for the black skin... and maybe a lower price, too.

OHMANIT'SSOFREAKINGCOOLITMUSTBEMINE!

;-)

[Kadath]

No built in wireless and HD DVD = skip.

[TheWombat]

So, what does this mean for those of us who are late to the party, and who might be thinking about getting a 360? I was thinking of using some tax refund money to get on the 360 bandwagon, replacing my old Xbox, as some some of the 360 games look interesting and I like to have at least one current-gen console. But I hear the existing Premium boxes have reliability issues (the HDMI isn't an issue as my TV is an older HD tube set without HDMI I believe) and the larger harddrive isn't a big deal--I have never come close to filling up the drive on my old Xbox--but if the fancy schmancy black Xbox has better internals in terms of reliability, that's a factor.

If the difference is that dramatic I'd certainly want to get the newer version, but would it be worth either the price premium or the wait until fall?

[Andrew Mayer]

So just wait for the standard white, updated version. All the same features, except for the black skin... and maybe a lower price, too.

OHMANIT'SSOFREAKINGCOOLITMUSTBEMINE!

;-)

It's not really "cool" envy per se. I'm tired of waiting, and I don't want the small hard drive. I'm also going to need to own a 360 before BioShock comes out for personal reasons.

[fuzzyslug]

Releasing this stuff as a seperate, more expensive SKU is a terrible idea. I was hoping that MS was easing off the multiple SKU nonsense (I haven't seen any Core systems around, lately), which was a bad idea to begin with. A stealth hardware revision of the existing box, with no price change, would be smart. Releasing a cheap hard drive replacement and keeping the existing hardware the same, with a decent price drop, would be smarter. Sony has zero momentum right now, and MS has a unique opportunity to keep it that way for the forseeable future by cashing in on Sony's pricing miscalculations. Offering more expensive hardware is like joining Sony in the idiot corner.

Still, this is just a rumor. I'll believe it when I see some official confirmation.

Agreed. Completely agreed.

This reeks of several mistakes all at once:

1) It makes the 360 seem more expensive. MS, let's not forget why you have the lead. Let's not compete with Sony on the very thing that is your most important advantage right now, price. Oh, hey Nintendo. We can cost twice as much as you can!

2) There's no need for another SKU. 2 was 1 too many. That said, I'm looking forward to the Super Duper Hyper Fighting 360 Edition in the fall.

3) The feature set isn't worth the price. Yea, HDMI. Listen to Jason, it's not much of an improvement. Hard drives at a massive markup is just silly. They almost make your memory cards seem like a bargain in comparison.

4) Maybe worst of all, from a hardware point of view, you can argue that the 20 GB PS3 is a better value. At least it has something expensive in it for all that extra dough folks need to put out.

Note to Microsoft: you are off course. Please turn around.

[mkozlows]

Agreed. Completely agreed.


Agreement to your agreement!

Plus, if this is a limited edition thing and everyone knows it, who's the sap that's going to pay $480 for something they'll be able to get much cheaper in just a few months? Aficionados of black electronics?

(And if the black thing really is only in a limited edition, are the buyers going to be stuck with the rest of their controllers being white, and any extra batteries being white, and the Wifi adaptor being white? Or would Microsoft sell a whole line of black accessories just to the few people who bought the rare, "exclusive" black 360?)

This makes so little sense that I have a hard time believing it, even if an actual print magazine says it's true. The only way I can kind of believe it is to imagine some nervous Microsoft executive in October freaking out about the PS3 launch.

"What does the PS3 have that we don't have?"

"Well... an HDMI port. And a bigger hard drive. And, um, it's black. And expensive."

"So let's make an expensive black 360 with an HDMI port and a hard drive. BAM! They won't know what hit 'em!"

[EvilIdler]

It's so dark in my cave that I don't care what the console looks like. My black headset
for VoIP has completely disappeared, but tests have hinted that it is lying somewhere
on the desk. I heard voices. Outside my head.

The only things people have really asked for are MORE RESOLUTIONS, DAMN IT,
and a bigger harddrive. The drive we have is currently just fine in Europe, since
they don't do any cool stuff for us. But that's OK. We get simultaneous releases
of Live Arcade games, at least. But on the offchance that someone at MS thinks
we're worth it, a few movies will eat all the current space we have.

A DVI/HDMI port would also be neat, but I haven't really noticed any differences
between VGA and DVI on the computers hooked up to my LCD. I ache for a faster
GPU on the gaming computer, but the 360 is just great on it.

So, all we want is more neat features in the firmware and a bigger harddrive,
possibly with a pass-through for the old drive. Make it in two parts - a plastic
cover to hide the hole for those who have a Core they finally decide to upgrade.

[Coca Cola Zero]

4) Maybe worst of all, from a hardware point of view, you can argue that the 20 GB PS3 is a better value. At least it has something expensive in it for all that extra dough folks need to put out.


That's the most surprising thing for me. I mean, I'm assuming this is all just rumor at this point, but IF true, Microsoft is basically closing the gap in pricing with the PS3 so much that they may eliminate the "PS3 is too expensive" meme.

I realize this is not an entirely rational viewpoint because the Premium system will still sell for the same price it always has, but perceptions of price aren't usually that rational to begin with. Right now the price difference between all three console systems is very clear... with a $475 360, Microsoft will be blurring the line between the 360 and the PS3 in the minds of consumers and will be giving Sony a powerful tool when trying to eliminate the perception of a price difference which is currently obvious.

[rjcc]

Agreed. Completely agreed.

This reeks of several mistakes all at once:

1) It makes the 360 seem more expensive. MS, let's not forget why you have the lead. Let's not compete with Sony on the very thing that is your most important advantage right now, price. Oh, hey Nintendo. We can cost twice as much as you can!

2) There's no need for another SKU. 2 was 1 too many. That said, I'm looking forward to the Super Duper Hyper Fighting 360 Edition in the fall.

3) The feature set isn't worth the price. Yea, HDMI. Listen to Jason, it's not much of an improvement. Hard drives at a massive markup is just silly. They almost make your memory cards seem like a bargain in comparison.

4) Maybe worst of all, from a hardware point of view, you can argue that the 20 GB PS3 is a better value. At least it has something expensive in it for all that extra dough folks need to put out.

Note to Microsoft: you are off course. Please turn around.

except the 20GB PS3 doesn't exist. doing a limited edition run in the spring, and then rolling that into the premiuim in the fall is an interesting way of approaching it. if it's not a wide release at that price, then I don't think its really closing the price gap at all, but until its offcially announced who knows what they're really doing.

getting more expensive I agree is the exact opposite of what they should be doing, but hey, shouldn't dave long be happy that someone is putting his theories into play?

[André Costa]

except the 20GB PS3 doesn't exist.

In Europe it doesn't exist. There's a 20Gb PS3 model in the US.


That said, i really hope the Zephyr scares the shops here at Portugal and they start selling the premium systems at 200 Euros again(They did it just before the PS3 launch!)

[rjcc]

In Europe it doesn't exist. There's a 20Gb PS3 model in the US.


That said, i really hope the Zephyr scares the shops here at Portugal and they start selling the premium systems at 200 Euros again(They did it just before the PS3 launch!)

no, it doesn't exist. I've never seen one in stores and a search of several types of stores in my area selling the ps3 reveals all with 60gb ps3s in stock, none with any 20GB.

[Jake Plane]

1) It makes the 360 seem more expensive. MS, let's not forget why you have the lead. Let's not compete with Sony on the very thing that is your most important advantage right now, price. Oh, hey Nintendo. We can cost twice as much as you can!


Perceptions about Perception Can Be Deceiving...
That certainly appears to be the major issue here.

Afterall, the PS3's "gimped" version is actually a great deal. But no one perceives it that way. They want the BEST version out there. The car with the bucket seats and chrome finish. The refrigerator with the ice cube maker and LCD screen built-in.

And so I understand your point. The introduction of a higher-cost SKU might - as far as wider consumer perception goes - effectively translate into a price INCREASE.

But... maybe not.

As Always, Consumers Want the Best of Both Worlds...
Consider this: No one here has access to the polling data commissioned by the 360 team. It's entirely possible that data shows that Microsoft has already picked off the low hanging fruit and now needs to expand their base.

It's possible then that this dataset would also show that there's a significant number of people who like the 360 but are attracted to the stronger feature set of the PS3. So why aren't they buying a PS3? They don't like the PRICE - which they perceive be $599.

As a result, there's a pool of potential consumers who could be won over to the 360 if it offered some of the features the PS3 offers - but for less.

Okay, so what are those features? Well, I wouldn't be surprised if Penn and Schoen's polling shows that there's a "STRONGLY INCLINED" group of potential 360 buyers who identified two features found on the PS3 that they would most like to see on the 360:

1. HDMI output
2. A larger hard drive.

Further, I wouldn't be surprised at all if people rated the "Blu-Ray" movie support below both of these features.

And They Are Willing to Pay More for a Video Console Hermaphrodite...
If the data did indeed show this, then I'm positive of this: That identified subgroup was asked if they would be willing to pay more for these features. If a significant number of them replied "YES" then I can understand why the 360 team decided to introduce a new SKU with the preferred PS3 features but priced significantly less than what is perceived to be the true cost of the PS3 (remember, under this scenario this pool of consumers do NOT value the blu-ray feature of the PS3 highly and certainly not on par with HDMI and a larger hard drive).

It's basically a way of winning over the 360-inclined group, i.e. people who are attracted by the games available or coming to the 360 - Halo 3, Gears of War, Gears of War, Star War: Knights of the Old Republic, Grand Theft Auto IV, Dead Rising, Lost Planet, Forza Motorsport 2, BioShock, Alan Wake, etc. - but who have reservations about the feature set available on the console.

A Changing Tech Environment That Could Potentially Shift Things to Sony's Favor...
Also consider the larger environment they are playing in now. HDTV adoption is on the rise, and unlike nearly two years ago, more people see the value in HDMI. Secondly, things are looking up for Blu-Ray as a format. It's not clear they'll win, of course. Hell Betamax was outselling VHS for quite sometime (and was a technologically superior format). But things do look good so far.

When you consider this, it's in Microsoft's interest to offer a new SKU that neutralizes the HDMI issue - and to offer it quickly just in case Blu-Ray does suddenly and truly take off. After all, if Blu-Ray wins the format war, the PS3's value and appeal instantly goes up.

In Summary: The 360 Elite Offers More of What You Want, None of What You Don't - All for Less
Long story short: I'm not convinced that introducing a new SKU is a step in the wrong direction. Remember, Microsoft has already sold 10 million 360s.

They want to sell MORE. And to do so, it makes sense to offer the features that consumers want, not include the ones they don't, and do so all for a lower price than the competition. For those consumers who could care less about Blu-Ray, they're going to see this as a choice between a $479 360 Elite with a 120GB HD and HDMI out versus a $599 PS3 with a 60GB HD and HDMI out (logically, they SHOULD see it as a choice between a $479 Elite and a $499 PS3, but that's not how consumer behavior works; consumers rarely base their decisions on pure logic).

Given this frame, the 360 Elite offers consumers more of what they want (double the capacity of the PS3), features found on other consoles (HDMI out) but not the features they don't (Blu-Ray) - and all for less.

[Jazar]

no, it doesn't exist. I've never seen one in stores and a search of several types of stores in my area selling the ps3 reveals all with 60gb ps3s in stock, none with any 20GB.

20GB PS3s do exist (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8008513&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat104100050000&id=1156202764757)

[Jake Plane]

20GB PS3s do exist (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8008513&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat104100050000&id=1156202764757)

True, but in fairness to the point made, they're not widely available in stores. Heck, even Best Buy's own site has the following:

Store Pickup: Not Available

[Jazar]

It says the same for the 60Gb model as well. I'm not saying they are as abundant but they're not completely gone.

[Jake Plane]

Touche. That's a typo. I meant to write: Touch me.

Anyhoo, I hear what you're saying but I do think the 20Gb models are very rare to spot in the wild. For consumers hoping to pick up a PS3 at a store, their choices are limited by how scare the 20Gb models are.

[Brakara]

Okay, so it's scarce. But why? Didn't Sony ship the SKUs in a 80/20 ratio? I'm curious, because if I wanted to buy a PS3 it would definitely be the 20GB version (so why isn't it selling more?).

[rjcc]

It says the same for the 60Gb model as well. I'm not saying they are as abundant but they're not completely gone.

no, they're not completely gone, but we already know best buy is dropping them soon. Looking at other stores online, most don't even offer it at all (circuit city, gamestop/eb, target, wal-mart, amazon), toysrus offers only the 20GB version online although I haven't seen it in the store when I've been there, buy.com has it, and compusa.com has it, but forces you to buy at least 5 games as a part of the "bundle".

for most people, it's just not out there for them to buy

[JD]

so why isn't it selling more?
I guess that if you're willing to spent that much money on a console - and we're not even talking about the additional purchase of games and peripherals here - another $100 isn't going to kill you. It probably also is some kind of psychological thing that makes people think they' will miss out on something by going for the cheaper version. The Core version of the 360 kind of established that, because, well, it actually lacked a fundemental feature.

For all we know, the Core isn't selling really well either. Most stores around here only offer the Premium SKU.

-Julian

[Jazar]

I wonder why there aren't more 20Gigs out there as well. If I had to guess I'd say the profit margins are even worse for the 20Gig version - although that'd be hard to believe.

[JD]

If I had to guess I'd say the profit margins are even worse for the 20Gig version - although that'd be hard to believe.
Well, Sony reportedly makes a highler loss per unit with the 20 GB version compared to the 60GB one, I wouldn't be surprised if the wholesale price somehow reflects that.

-Julian

[Moore]

That's the most surprising thing for me. I mean, I'm assuming this is all just rumor at this point, but IF true, Microsoft is basically closing the gap in pricing with the PS3 so much that they may eliminate the "PS3 is too expensive" meme.

I realize this is not an entirely rational viewpoint because the Premium system will still sell for the same price it always has, but perceptions of price aren't usually that rational to begin with. Right now the price difference between all three console systems is very clear... with a $475 360, Microsoft will be blurring the line between the 360 and the PS3 in the minds of consumers and will be giving Sony a powerful tool when trying to eliminate the perception of a price difference which is currently obvious.

right, but it goes away in a few months, when this one turns white and replaces the premium. It's only $480 to get it FIRST and in black, afaik.

[Kunikos]

The site says this Xbox 360 Elite will have a 120GB hard drive, HDMI video output, a black case, new packaging, and a $479 price tag. The console is said to run cooler than current Xbox 360s, although Engadget's sources don't know whether Microsoft will be using the 65nm die-shrunk version of the Xenon processor that Chartered expected to start producing this quarter. Only around 200,000 Xbox 360 Elite consoles will be made, after which Engadget says the $399 Xbox 360 Premium will inherit the Elite's internals. That transition is currently estimated to happen by the late summer or fall.

So you pay an $80 premium to get it early and in black. (Techreport (http://techreport.com/onearticle.x/12072))

[Quaro]

I thought this really hit home (from today's PA):
I've also heard (as you may have) that he standalone version of the 120 gig drive is going to clock in at around two hundred dollars, which reveals a company in the throes of brain fever. The machine is locked down so hard that virtually all you can do with a drive this large is load it to the brim with premium content! They should be subsidizing the Goddamn things, not raising them overhead to scourge early adopters.

[Jason Cross]

For all we know, the Core isn't selling really well either. Most stores around here only offer the Premium SKU.

I don't think the core is really "for us." I think it's a part of the big international strategy that has MS trying to get a foothold early in emerging markets like India. And even then, it's not going to happen until there's more of a price drop.

We've had this discussion here before, but hard drives really limit your ability to cost-reduce a system. At some point you're paying for the mechanical stuff, and the density of the platter is a gimmie. There's not really a lot of manufacturing cost difference between two different single-platter 2.5" hard drives, even if one is 20GB and the other is 60GB.

In other words, there's a floor for how cheap a hard drive can be, and it just doesn't drop like the rest of the system (where you consolidate parts, move to more dense manufacturing processes, etc.).

I think MS is perfectly happy for the premium SKU to be 90% or more of the sales in US/Japan/EU, but to make core the long-term, worldwide, cost-sensitive price reduction play.

I'm starting to have a different opinion about this 360 Elite, with some caveats. I think offering a black, 120GB, HDMI unit with no wifi or HD-DVD at an $80 premium is a mistake (HD-DVD isn't going to happen - it's slower than the 12X DVD and that will screw up streaming data in existing games). I think making it the new "premium" SKU at $399, dropping the premium (called just "Xbox 360" officially) at $299, and then the core at like $199 or $229, is a great play.

MS might do this right by marketing it the right way. The name - 360 Elite - sort of makes me think they might. If they market it not as a truly new SKU, but as a limited (maybe numbered!) edition for the true hardcore and elite gamers to order "while supplies last," it could work. Don't put it in Best Buy fliers and stuff...only tell the hardcore gamers it's coming, do direct on the web marketing and PR about it, and keep it out of the mass market's eye. Depending on how many they make, those guys will never see it anyway. It'll never hit a shelf, they'll all be preordered and bought online and then they'll be gone. Not a bad method for squeezing out more money for those willing to pay it, and getting the small volume of the new premium SKU out there while they ramp up the production lines.

Or, they could totally screw it up. :)

I just want to know two things:

1 - Did they improve the god awful D-pad at all? (I bet not)
2 - Is it quieter, both at idle and most importantly, when the drive is fully spun up?

Something else to think about - The late-April release of this system probably gives us a good indication of the timeframe for the spring Dashboard Update (which we haven't really heard anything about yet). I would suspect that a new DU would be required to support the new system and support the 120GB hard drives on the old units. I bet we're looking at 5 weeks, at the worst, until the spring DU hits. Assuming these "360 Elite" reports are correct.

[stusser]

I thought this really hit home (from today's PA):
Couldn't agree more, and well said.

[Kunikos]

Early adopters always get it up the ass. I got a PS2 about six months after the slim came out and I'm hardly crying that within six months it was "last-gen." The first two or three waves of games for the 360 and much later for the Wii and PS3 have hardly been inspiring. I think Mass Effect is the only game so far on the 360 that actually is a "system-seller" for me.

[Brakara]

1 - Did they improve the god awful D-pad at all? (I bet not)

Yeah, it should be really easy to improve too, just make sure the D-pad is centered in its "hole". Mine is skewed towards the upper right, and it works very well when I press down and left, but not so much when I press up and right.

You can easily modify it yourself though. Check out this post at NeoGAF:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5837165&postcount=192

Other posters claim it works very well, but YMMV of course.


2 - Is it quieter, both at idle and most importantly, when the drive is fully spun up?

Isn't the latest 360 series pretty quiet (the ones with the BenQ DVD drives)?

[Jason Cross]

You can easily modify it yourself though. Check out this post at NeoGAF:

I might give that a try. I just disassembled a wired 360 controller just now, to see what they did inside. None of it is all that surprising, but man did they screw up the D-pad with a wobbly single-post design, and these raised ridges to press the four contact plates, and stuff. It wouldn't be hard to fix...all they gotta do is change a couple of the plastic molds. There's nothing wrong with the electronics or placement of the contact pads or anything.

Isn't the latest 360 series pretty quiet (the ones with the BenQ DVD drives)?

I've heard that, but never first-hand. And I have heard some people who bought 360s recently complain about the noise (they possibly didn't get the BenQ drive).

Either way, the whole damn thing needs to be much quieter.

[Jazar]

Updated with pics.
http://www.consolas.com/noticias/937/galeria/

Edit: Thought it was official leaked shots but now word is it's photoshoped.

[Brakara]

I've heard that, but never first-hand. And I have heard some people who bought 360s recently complain about the noise (they possibly didn't get the BenQ drive).


They can check for themselves by comparing to the picture found here (http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEZEupplpEEfSZefFv.php).

And here's the report that said the drive was quiet:

http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEZpZFFZZETHwPQATj.php

Anyone knows if this has been confirmed/denied?

[Brakara]

Edit: Thought it was official leaked shots but now word is it's photoshoped.

Are these production shots photoshopped too?

http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2007/03/26/xbox-360-elite-production-shots/

[DaveC]

Are these production shots photoshopped too?

http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2007/03/26/xbox-360-elite-production-shots/

You do know the debug kits are black as well right?

[MatthewF]

You do know the debug kits are black as well right?

Yes, but they don't have the metal drive cover (it's plastic, the same plastic used on the rest of the unit) or a black hard drive either. In those shots, the drive cover is clearly metal. No debug kit has a metal drive cover. Wait a few minutes and I'll get you a pic to compare.

[MatthewF]

Ok, look at the production shots linked above, notice the distinct metal plates covering the drive slot. Now look at this pic of my debug kit:

http://www.shamblersgame.com/images/360_debug.jpg

And just to note, this kit arrived just a few weeks ago, it's the newest one in the office. Those production shots are dated even before we got this kit. I think this has pretty much just moved me past the "it may be fake" stance to "it's most probably real."

[DaveC]

With the old Xbox the difference between a dev kit and a debug was the full dev kit had a clear case and was taller, the debug kit was green and the same size as the regular version. I thought that might be the case this time as well.

[MatthewF]

The dev kits are just plain white. The debug kits are a greyish-black.

[DennyA]

All the details are up at Xbox.com here. (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/xbox360elite/default.htm?WText.camp=TS3-Xbox360Elite&WText.campSrc=Home)

I haven't seen one in person yet.

[ciparis]

The pricing of this feels like a lost opportunity to me: they needed this new model, but they had the chance to really stick it to Sony with pricing... instead they've made the PS3 seem not as much more expensive as before -- just when that was Sony's biggest point of pain. Mistake number one.

Another one is saying something like this (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/28/technology/28xbox.html?ex=1332734400&en=249f5966d09eb762&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss):
“We think that as soon as the Wii customer turns 14 they want something else.”
Whoops. Insulting your current and potential Wii60 customers is not brilliant. If you really think it is a different product segment, you don't need to say that.

[rjcc]

James L. McQuivey, an analyst at Forrester Research, said that Microsoft hoped to encourage customers to spend more money downloading movies and games, which require considerable hard-drive space.

I think this is the dumbest part from that article.

How are you going to encourage people to download more.....if the hard drive costs half as much as a new system?

[Andrew Mayer]

Looks good to me. I guess I'll pick one up when they hit Costco.

[DennyA]

While I agree the hard drive price seems really high compared to a $60 3.5-inch 120GB, keep in mind that these are 2.5-inch laptop drives. And external USB 2.5-inch laptop drives tend to go for $110 (no-name) to $160 (LaCie).

That doesn't make it any cheaper, of course. Just pointing out that there's not some enormous profit margin there that's going to buy new gold-threaded cushions for my ergonomic chair at work...

BTW, the add-on 120GB includes a disc and custom cable that transfers all of your stuff from your original 20GB drive to the 120GB. Still looking into what the data transfer situation is if you upgrade to an Elite.

[Jason Becker]

Wonder how retailers are gonna like this. Consoles used to be just one system for all. Now MS and Sony launch with two versions and MS is now adding another SKU. Also seems really cheap of them to not start to include the HDMI connection to new systems for the first two versions.

[Jake Plane]

The pricing of this feels like a lost opportunity to me: they needed this new model, but they had the chance to really stick it to Sony with pricing... instead they've made the PS3 seem not as much more expensive as before -- just when that was Sony's biggest point of pain. Mistake number one.


I disagree. If you could care less about hitching your wagon to a particular next-gen dvd format, the two things that are most appealing about the PS3 are HDMI out and its larger hard drive.

Elite responds by adding HDMI and doubling the hard drive space - and still offering that $120 cheaper than the PS3.

I posted about this earlier in this thread but my guess is that market research showed them that they've picked the low hanging fruit and they now need to attract people who are considering getting a console and like the PS3's feature set more than the 360s, specifically HDMI and a larger hard drive. This move is a way of neutralizing Sony's advantage in the marketplace.

Also seems really cheap of them to not start to include the HDMI connection to new systems for the first two versions.

Definitely agree. Take a page from Sony's playbook and start adding HDMI out to all your SKUs.

[Chris Nahr]

Or even better, take another page and add WiFi to all your SKUs...

[Midnight Son]

Since SONY can't/won't lower prices yet, the 360 is going UP to meet them halfway. My time horizon in 3-4 years down the road. I've got a large PS2 and Gamecube backlog to finish and new PC games keep coming out, so...........

[Kid Socrates]

I'm surprised they didn't upgrade it to offer a wireless connection. My PS3's not getting much use right now as anything other than the box that plays Rogue Galaxy (PS2), but I'm switching my router to a wireless one this weekend and I don't have to run a network cable all the way from the PC room to the living room. When I start playing games online with my PS3, that's going to be a nice benefit and keep my apartment from looking horrendous. For everyone racing so damn fast to HDTV sets and new technology, you'd think they'd go ahead and grab that aspect of the new technology as well.

[Ephraim]

Or even better, take another page and add WiFi to all your SKUs...

This is specifically addressed in the announcement podcast. To summarize: The Product Manager states that the vast majority of online X360 gamers used the wired connection. He then states that anyone hardcore enough to use wireless will also have other devices that would want a wireless connection nearby (like an HTPC) and mentions that he solves this problem with a wireless bridge located near his X360.

He ends by mentioning 802.11n and talks about how Sony's (and I suppose Nintendo's) built in wireless is already out of date. He also says that it's a shame that people are paying for something they'll never use or will eventually not use (when they switch to "n" networks), and goes on to talk about Microsoft offering the choice.

And that was that. So. How long until we see an external 802.11n WiFi dongle for the X360 from Microsoft? The draft 2.0 is done, we're in the home stretch.

[Jake Plane]

I'm surprised they didn't upgrade it to offer a wireless connection. My PS3's not getting much use right now as anything other than the box that plays Rogue Galaxy (PS2), but I'm switching my router to a wireless one this weekend and I don't have to run a network cable all the way from the PC room to the living room. When I start playing games online with my PS3, that's going to be a nice benefit and keep my apartment from looking horrendous.

And you're surprised because that works best for you and thus should work best for everyone?

Again, corporations make these decision based on market research and development, not one user's specific apartment layout. Specifically, the chain of events here was this:

Microsoft's 360 division asked Penn and Schoen to conduct market research for them around the Zephyr. Penn and Shoen commissioned the study and likely came back with the a ranking of the features MS was considering including. MS then weighed the opportunity cost of each and ultimately decided on a path that best balanced consumer want with their costs.

Also as is noted in the previous post, it's not like MS needs to guess at the number of people that use wifi to access LIVE. They know. And for most users, it's an actual line. Given that, I think it makes sense that they went with HDMI and a larger hard drive.

[Kid Socrates]

No, I don't think they should put it in just because it works for me, but I doubt I'm the only one. If it's not the majority, though, I can see why they wouldn't put it in. Isn't there an adapter for the 360 that allows for wireless, or am I remembering incorrectly?

[Jazar]

I updated the original post with the official details. I think the biggest reveals are:

It will be using the same components as the white 360 - No updated CPU or DVD Drive.

The standalone 120Gb Hard Drive comes with a data transfer method but the Elite does not.

It looks to be a permanent SKU not limited.

[Ephraim]

No, I don't think they should put it in just because it works for me, but I doubt I'm the only one. If it's not the majority, though, I can see why they wouldn't put it in. Isn't there an adapter for the 360 that allows for wireless, or am I remembering incorrectly?

That's correct. There is an adapter that does 802.11a/b/g. It's overpriced, but it exists. And as I posted, I expect an 802.11n version to be forthcoming in the near future.

[Jake Plane]

No, I don't think they should put it in just because it works for me, but I doubt I'm the only one. If it's not the majority, though, I can see why they wouldn't put it in. Isn't there an adapter for the 360 that allows for wireless, or am I remembering incorrectly?

See the post immediately before mine for answers to all your questions. Oh, heck, here it is again:

This is specifically addressed in the announcement podcast. To summarize: The Product Manager states that the vast majority of online X360 gamers used the wired connection. He then states that anyone hardcore enough to use wireless will also have other devices that would want a wireless connection nearby (like an HTPC) and mentions that he solves this problem with a wireless bridge located near his X360.

He ends by mentioning 802.11n and talks about how Sony's (and I suppose Nintendo's) built in wireless is already out of date. He also says that it's a shame that people are paying for something they'll never use or will eventually not use (when they switch to "n" networks), and goes on to talk about Microsoft offering the choice.

And that was that. So. How long until we see an external 802.11n WiFi dongle for the X360 from Microsoft? The draft 2.0 is done, we're in the home stretch.

[Kid Socrates]

See the post immediately before mine for answers to all your questions. Oh, heck, here it is again:

Yeah, I read that. I didn't see anything about the current adapter. I see that it's been addressed, though.

[Chris Nahr]

The Product Manager states that the vast majority of online X360 gamers used the wired connection.

Duh? That's because the 360 only comes with a wired connection, the Wifi adaptor for the 360 is insanely overpriced, and you can't use a cheap USB Wifi endpoint! That doesn't prove anything other than 360 users are (correctly) unwilling to get ripped off by Microsoft for their $99 adaptor.

He then states that anyone hardcore enough to use wireless will also have other devices that would want a wireless connection nearby

Yeah, for example a PS3 and a Wii. Which have wireless built in. Double duh.

He ends by mentioning 802.11n and talks about how Sony's (and I suppose Nintendo's) built in wireless is already out of date.

Oh please. Any new networking standard will take a long time to get adopted. People still need a matching wireless station on their DSL/cable end. You think they're going to throw out their existing 802.11g model? You think they're going to get the inevitably overpriced and unstable first-wave models for 802.11n instead?

Also, are you unaware how fast 802.11g is? It's 54 MBit/sec max and 24 MBit/sec typical -- but my current ADSL connection only delivers 2 MBit/sec, and the fastest I could technically get is 16 MBit/sec. I'd say very few people have a faster connection than that. So a faster Wifi standard for the purpose of playing/downloading over the Internet is rather pointless right now.

You've bought into a whole lot of marketing bullshit here. There's absolutely no good reason for the 360 not to have an 802.11g adaptor built into the system, other than the opportunity to charge an amazing $99 extra for it. (Actual value: probably $20. I remind you that even the DS has this functionality built in.)

[Kid Socrates]

Holy crap, the wireless adapter for the 360 is $99? I'm able to buy a wireless router and two wireless network cards for my network upgrade for just about that! I had no idea it was -that- much. That's ridiculous.

[Hanzii]

This is specifically addressed in the announcement podcast. To summarize: The Product Manager states that the vast majority of online X360 gamers used the wired connection.

Interesting bit of circular logic, unless MS has good numbers apart from the sales of wireless Xbox dongles.
"We made an overpriced addon to address this problem and not many people are buying it, so it was a good idea not to include the option".

If wireless were built in, more people would use it. And G is fine even on a N-network (unless you're streaming HD content from your pc to your Xbox), so I think Sony and Nintendo made the right choice here.
A wireless bridge isn't the same as a wireless connection - you still need wires to the bridge - and more hardcore to set up, than a built in solution for most people.
And considering the price of the wireless dongle now, I shudder at the price MS will demand for a n-dongle once the standard is finalized.

Edit: Chris said the same, but with better wording (ie swearing)

[Ephraim]

You've bought into a whole lot of marketing bullshit here. There's absolutely no good reason for the 360 not to have an 802.11g adaptor built into the system, other than the opportunity to charge an amazing $99 extra for it. (Actual value: probably $20. I remind you that even the DS has this functionality built in.)

WHOA! Slow down there, Chris. I haven't bought into anything. As my post clearly states, these are the Product Manager's comments. I expect he's bought into the marketing bullshit because HE CREATED THE MARKETING BULLSHIT.

I was merely relaying what he said in the podcast.

Feel free to apologize whenever you like.

[Ephraim]

A wireless bridge isn't the same as a wireless connection - you still need wires to the bridge - and more hardcore to set up, than a built in solution for most people.
Edit: Chris said the same, but with better wording (ie swearing)

Yes, and you like him seemed to have missed the multiple times in my post where I clearly attribute all of those comments/statements to their source: The X360 Product Manager.

As as for your comment that a wireless bridge needs wires, that's incorrect. Many bridges can be made into access points and that would allow them to work with another 802.11n router and still sit safely tucked away behind your HTPC, X360, PS3, and Wii providing them with wired connections to the bridge, and wireless 802.11n to the router. Of course this has an additional cost (you'd need a second 802.11n device, a router), but it is the best hardcore solution, as the Product Manager mentioned.

Oh, and for the record, I don't own the wireless adapter for my X360 because a) I actually do stream HD content to my X360 and when I tried doing it wirelessly, it was horrible; b) it is stupidly overpriced; c) it isn't 802.11n, which I'm willing to wait for.

[Qenan]

Hmm. Wonder how long until someone figures out how to make any 120gb drive work?

I'd like a bigger drive, but it's kind of overpriced.

[Chris Nahr]

Ephraim: You were relaying these rather outrageous statements in a straight-faced manner and without any critical comments, so I thought you agreed with them or at least believed they made sense. Sorry about the misunderstanding -- it's always a good idea to explicitly distance yourself from statements that you quote but disagree with. Otherwise you'll get flamed for quoting HITLER!

[Hanzii]

Yes, and you like him seemed to have missed the multiple times in my post where I clearly attribute all of those comments/statements to their source: The X360 Product Manager.


No, I didn't. I was pointing out the flaws in the argument, not going after the poster. Sorry I didn't bother to change the automatic (quote=Ephraim)-tag.


As as for your comment that a wireless bridge needs wires, that's incorrect. Many bridges can be made into access points and that would allow them to work with another 802.11n router and still sit safely tucked away behind your HTPC, X360, PS3, and Wii providing them with wired connections to the bridge, and wireless 802.11n to the router. Of course this has an additional cost (you'd need a second 802.11n device, a router), but it is the best hardcore solution, as the Product Manager mentioned.

That's what I meant. You'll still need wires from you Xbox/whatever to the bridge and to most wireless is a matter of convenience and removal of clutter - the nasty wire from the back of your otherwise nice looking Xbox to the bridge, doesn't look good.


Oh, and for the record, I don't own the wireless adapter for my X360 because a) I actually do stream HD content to my X360 and when I tried doing it wirelessly, it was horrible; b) it is stupidly overpriced; c) it isn't 802.11n, which I'm willing to wait for.

a) I don't think many do; b) Just wait for the price of the n-version; c) For the standard to pass and for MS to make their - stupidly overpriced - version, you're in for a long wait...

[Qenan]

Does make me wonder: With relatively huge drives around the corner... was Microsoft's refusal to make them standard a mistake? I think yes.

[Jake Plane]

You've bought into a whole lot of marketing bullshit here. There's absolutely no good reason for the 360 not to have an 802.11g adaptor built into the system, other than the opportunity to charge an amazing $99 extra for it. (Actual value: probably $20. I remind you that even the DS has this functionality built in.)

There's no good reason?

Yes there is. Every 360 sold is sold at a loss. So your business acumen is quite sharp. They aren't bundling wifi in part because they can make up some of their loss through the sale of accessories.

And again - while wifi on the 360 would work best for you, it may not for everyone. I certainly have no use for it. So what's the best way to determine whether it's something that consumers are clamoring for? Why, ask them. Conduct surveys. And while you're at it, ask them about other features. And heck, while you're doing that, have them prioritize those features. And guess what? That's what MS did.

If wifi were so critical to buying decisions, it would have been included in the 360 Elite. It wasn't. HDMI and a larger hard drive were considered more important.

So as a business decision - gasp, shock - they decided to keep their manufacturing costs low, focus on the features consumers want most and undersell the competition.

[JD]

Every 360 sold is sold at a loss.
No, it's not - unless you factor in R&D and previous losses. But the current production and distribution costs are reportedly not above the retail price of the system.

-Julian

[Hanzii]

There's no good reason?

Yes there is. Every 360 sold is sold at a loss. So your business acumen is quite sharp. They aren't bundling wifi in part because they can make up some of their loss through the sale of accessories.

And again - while wifi on the 360 would work best for you, it may not for everyone. I certainly have no use for it. So what's the best way to determine whether it's something that consumers are clamoring for? Why, ask them. Conduct surveys. And while you're at it, ask them about other features. And heck, while you're doing that, have them prioritize those features. And guess what? That's what MS did.


So you're saying that MS based all Xbox-decisions on market research, focus groups and whatnot while Nintendo and Sony, just paid a bunch of people a lot of money to make stuff up?

Or are you talking out of your ass?

I think you're doing exactly what you accuse Chris of - basing your assumptions on what people want on what YOU want.

[Charles]

1up Jake Planes it up.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3158279

Cost of 360 with everything the PS3 has, and vice versa.

[Kid Socrates]

1up Jake Planes it up.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3158279

Cost of 360 with everything the PS3 has, and vice versa.

It's pretty remarkable how similar those costs are. I'm more willing to give up first-party headsets than wireless connections; at least the consumer has a reasonable third-party solution there.

[DaveC]

1up Jake Planes it up.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3158279

Cost of 360 with everything the PS3 has, and vice versa.

You know 50% of the time 1UP causes an error in IE or FF and won't open for me even after my XP reinstall. What a POS shite. No other site I visit on a regular basis does this.

[Hetz]

1up Jake Planes it up.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3158279

Cost of 360 with everything the PS3 has, and vice versa.

Wow, that has got to be silliest article I have ever read.

$50 for an HDMI cable? Try $7. $100 for a headset? More like $20. Why in the world do you need both HDMI and Component?? Give me a break, 1UP.

It's like he just wanted to make the PS3 more expensive by using the most overpriced stuff he could find.

[Dave Long]

The article writer is Luke Smith, who I think has earned a reputation at GAF as a guy with SONY tattooed on his arm.

[Jazar]

The article writer is Luke Smith, who I think has earned a reputation at GAF as a guy with SONY tattooed on his arm.

You are confused. Luke Smith doesn't own a PS3 or PSP and his two favorite games both begin with an "H" and end with an "alo". Shane is the 1up Sonyboy.

Doesn't make the article any less embarrasing though. There's just too many variables to make that kind of line by line price/feature match.

[Charles]

You know 50% of the time 1UP causes an error in IE or FF and won't open for me even after my XP reinstall. What a POS shite. No other site I visit on a regular basis does this.

Don't know what to say, I've been using Firefox as long as 1up has existed and I have never had a problem. I'd blame an addon or plugin before the site or browser.

[Charles]

Wow, that has got to be silliest article I have ever read.

$50 for an HDMI cable? Try $7. $100 for a headset? More like $20. Why in the world do you need both HDMI and Component?? Give me a break, 1UP.

It's like he just wanted to make the PS3 more expensive by using the most overpriced stuff he could find.


Actually, he's using the 'official' stuff, which is a reasonable metric since that is what most consumers use. And yeah putting both cables is kind of ridiculous... except that he's matching what is in each box. The 360 elite comes with both, soo...

[Jake Plane]

So you're saying that MS based all Xbox-decisions on market research, focus groups and whatnot while Nintendo and Sony, just paid a bunch of people a lot of money to make stuff up?

Or are you talking out of your ass?

I think you're doing exactly what you accuse Chris of - basing your assumptions on what people want on what YOU want.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Especially since I also know for a fact that Nintendo has used Penn and Schoen also.

But as for Sony... I have no idea if they did use a market research firm. It wouldn't surprise if they did. But it also wouldn't surprise me if they did so on pricing - and not on feature set issues.

So you're right. I'm making an assumption. But it's an informed assumption. First, the Wall Street Journal article on how the PS3 came to be makes zero mention of market research. What it does highlight is a lot of internal fighting and the product being driven by Kutagari, who was driven by his vision for the product.

Second, if the PS3 were truly guided by market research it would not have included Blu-ray. That alone is clear. Clearly, there was an internal rational for wanting to include it - but it wasn't based on market research.

Third, the Elite is coming to market following the introduction of the PS3. It would make sense that Microsoft would return to PS&B for additional research on feature sets.

[Dave Long]

You are confused. Luke Smith doesn't own a PS3 or PSP and his two favorite games both begin with an "H" and end with an "alo". Shane is the 1up Sonyboy.

Doesn't make the article any less embarrasing though. There's just too many variables to make that kind of line by line price/feature match.
Ah... I apologize for that then. I do get them mixed up in the GAF threads. My bad.

[DaveC]

Don't know what to say, I've been using Firefox as long as 1up has existed and I have never had a problem. I'd blame an addon or plugin before the site or browser.

Nope, all I have active is Adblock adn Flashblock, no other add-ins. It also does it on my work machine.

[DaveC]

Wow, that has got to be silliest article I have ever read.

$50 for an HDMI cable? Try $7. $100 for a headset? More like $20. Why in the world do you need both HDMI and Component?? Give me a break, 1UP.

It's like he just wanted to make the PS3 more expensive by using the most overpriced stuff he could find.

$20 for a Bluetooth headset? Also, not everyone knows where to get cheap cables and will buy them at BB. Lastly the Elite comes with both so that's fair.

[Charles]

Nope, all I have active is Adblock adn Flashblock, no other add-ins. It also does it on my work machine.

There's your problem. I stopped using Adblock and flashblock because they constantly caused Firefox to crash. Win!

$20 for a Bluetooth headset? Also, not everyone knows where to get cheap cables and will buy them at BB. Lastly the Elite comes with both so that's fair.


Actually, the page links to monoprice cables. So if they didn't know previously, they do now! Assuming they read the lists instead of just jumping to the totals.

[DaveC]

There's your problem. I stopped using Adblock and flashblock because they constantly caused Firefox to crash. Win!


Hmm, funny it doesn't crash anywhere else using those plug-ins for me and that doesn't account for IE. So LOSE!!

[dannimal]

That's what I meant. You'll still need wires from you Xbox/whatever to the bridge and to most wireless is a matter of convenience and removal of clutter - the nasty wire from the back of your otherwise nice looking Xbox to the bridge, doesn't look good.

I don't think Joe Average gives a crap about a wire from the back of the 360 to a bridge/switch/AP. There's wires from the 360 to the TV, and from the 360 to a power outlet at the very least. Wires from device to device have been around for ages, and making it look neat is a trivial issue.

For many people, wireless is of value because the broadband line into the house is in one room, and the console is in another. The options then being a long, hard to run cable from room to room, or wireless from room to room.

I've already got a wireless box for my XBMC (which has a cable running to the XBox even), plugging in a 360 (or a PS3 or a Wii if they didn't have wireless) would be a matter of a $3 patch cable.

[Ephraim]

Ephraim: You were relaying these rather outrageous statements in a straight-faced manner and without any critical comments, so I thought you agreed with them or at least believed they made sense. Sorry about the misunderstanding -- it's always a good idea to explicitly distance yourself from statements that you quote but disagree with. Otherwise you'll get flamed for quoting HITLER!

I disagree. I was relaying the outrageous statements, properly attributed, with no commentary or bias from me, just as a news reporter would. I didn't indulge in editorial in my initial post. I don't always feel like indulging in editorial.

But now I do. I think the statements are, as you claim, self-serving. Which is not shocking considering their origin. That being said, I do fundamentally agree with the principle that I only want to pay for what I will use, so not including an HD DVD player or Wi Fi is fine with me. I'm absolutely on board with providing those options as add-ons. The problem is that although the HD DVD player add on seems reasonably priced for what you get (the player, the media remote, King Kong HD DVD), the WiFi adapter is not. It's much too expensive. And it lacks a key feature that I require: the ability to wirelessly stream HD content.

I'll wait however long it takes for Microsoft to release an N adapter, and if it's not reasonably priced, then I'll end up going the bridge route. But at least I won't have paid Microsoft any more money than I absolutely had to for something I wouldn't be using.

[Charles]

Hmm, funny it doesn't crash anywhere else using those plug-ins for me and that doesn't account for IE. So LOSE!!


Your loss. But don't blame the site for your plugin problems. The site would work fine if you stopped using the plugins, so the problems lay directly at your feet.

[dogbert]

Wow, that has got to be silliest article I have ever read.

$50 for an HDMI cable? Try $7. $100 for a headset? More like $20. Why in the world do you need both HDMI and Component?? Give me a break, 1UP.

It's like he just wanted to make the PS3 more expensive by using the most overpriced stuff he could find.

He's also included the cost of an external HD enclosure, which you most definitely do not need to upgrade the PS3's internal HD.

[JD]

He's also included the cost of an external HD enclosure, which you most definitely do not need to upgrade the PS3's internal HD.
Yeah, unless you're using a 3.5" HDD, which also works, but simply doesn't fit into that case. And were you to do that, you'd get a 120 GB one at a notably lower price.

-Julian

[JD]

Also, Pachter's at it again (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/d41898d2-dcb6-11db-a21d-000b5df10621,_i_rssPage=6700d4e4-6714-11da-a650-0000779e2340.html).
Microsoft has dealt a blow to Toshiba’s HD-DVD standard by announcing a new high-end version of the Xbox 360 games console that fails to include the high-definition drive.

Microsoft has been siding with HD-DVD rather than Sony’s Blu-ray standard in selling a separate external HD-DVD drive to plug into the 360.
“I think, if nothing else, this is an acknowledgement that Blu-ray is going to win [the standards war],” said Michael Pachter, video games analyst at Wedbush Morgan Securities.

“It would have been a costly mistake to build it into the hardware if HD-DVD loses and I think Microsoft sees this as an unacceptable gamble.”
-Julian

[DaveC]

Your loss. But don't blame the site for your plugin problems. The site would work fine if you stopped using the plugins, so the problems lay directly at your feet.

Oh Charles, like I said how do explain it happens in IE as well without any plug-ins. I still blame them and you for being Charles.

[Chris Nahr]

The 1up website is notoriously terrible, that's not the fault of any browser.

[Moore]

Holy crap, the wireless adapter for the 360 is $99? I'm able to buy a wireless router and two wireless network cards for my network upgrade for just about that! I had no idea it was -that- much. That's ridiculous.


You dont need it for wifi though, it's just the MS branded one.

sony hdmi cables are more than monoprice = same thing

[Andrew Mayer]

I gotta say, I don't see why I wouldn't get the Elite at this point.

I understand that it pushes the price up near the low-end PS3, but at $79 over the regular price isn't it worth it to add 100GB to the machine?

I guess I'm not worried about filling the 121st gigabyte, I'm worried about the 21st.

[MatthewF]

I don't give a shit about the bigger hard drive, I barely use mine for more than demos (which get nuked fast) and savegames. I just want the HDMI and 65nm processor. And I really hope the rumors about it being much cooler and quieter are true. I'm tired of my noisy-ass Vacuum360.

[EvilIdler]

Or the 13th, as the case is now :)

I went on a downloading during the week, and have managed to fill most of the
drive. 2.9GB remaining, lots of big demos I want to check out. Then I looked at
the US market (juggling accounts), and found that you bastards have more game
trailers than us, not just access to TV shows and movies. How the hell does
anyone manage with 13GB at all in the US?

Two Viva Piñata episodes is 1GB right there. A movie in standard def is 1.3 gigs.
The bigger drive is way overdue, so those extra $79 won't sting so much for a
new Xbox 360 customer.

[Kunikos]

After reading everything I'm going to hold off another six to twelve months to get a 360.

[Quaro]

They should throw in 80 dollars worth of TV and Movie rentals with the new hard drive -- would take the sting out of it and get people used to watching their shows via Xbox.

[Kunikos]

That would make far too much sense.

[RickH]

No kidding, some free points would be a damn clever incentive for the 120gig drive.

[Moore]

Or the 13th, as the case is now :)

I went on a downloading during the week, and have managed to fill most of the
drive. 2.9GB remaining, lots of big demos I want to check out. Then I looked at
the US market (juggling accounts), and found that you bastards have more game
trailers than us, not just access to TV shows and movies. How the hell does
anyone manage with 13GB at all in the US?

Two Viva Piñata episodes is 1GB right there. A movie in standard def is 1.3 gigs.
The bigger drive is way overdue, so those extra $79 won't sting so much for a
new Xbox 360 customer.

I heavily use the service, but:

TV shows dont need to be stored, you buy them, you can re-download whenever them in less time than it takes to dig out the dvd if you had bought it on DVD.

ALL movies are rentals, so why do you need them for more than 24 hours or mroe than 1 at a time?

Gametrailers get deleted after 1-2 viewings, and are small anyways. Demos last a bit longer, but they do get dumped regularly (when I buy the game).

Music is on my PC.

The only thing I need permanent drive space for is game related stuff, so I wont need to buy the 120gb drive for awhile. Expansions can hit 1gb, but there arent a ton of must buy ones. XBLA games are small (though I buy probably 70% of them) and so are savegames. So it's going to be quite awhile before I need a bigger drive, even though I spend a pretty decent amount on the marketplace.

I FEEL a bit cramped, but I always have like 7gb free unless I'd downloaded a movie (in HD, I'm a bit baffled as to why they even offer SD ones.)

[DennyA]

Also, Pachter's at it again (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/d41898d2-dcb6-11db-a21d-000b5df10621,_i_rssPage=6700d4e4-6714-11da-a650-0000779e2340.html).
“I think, if nothing else, this is an acknowledgement that Blu-ray is going to win [the standards war],” said Michael Pachter, video games analyst at Wedbush Morgan Securities

Remember, kids, "analyst" is just one letter and a space away from "anal cyst."

[mouselock]

Remember, kids, "analyst" is just one letter and a space away from "anal cyst."

It's not a wholly spurious argument.

Also, interestingly, if you want an HDMI capable next-gen console that also has hi-def optical disc capability, MS just got more expensive than Sony:

Elite ($479) + HD-DVD Add-on ($199) = $679
PS3 60 GB w/ Blu-Ray = $599

I really don't understand MS's strategy here. Unless I'm way off base on their cost of adding in the HDMI capability, we're suddenly looking at them outpricing Sony on the full package so they can pad up their profit margin on the console. I always thought common wisdom was that you made your money on the software in the console business. They would seem to be in a great position to do just that between the bigger software library and XBLA. I guess they figure Sony is so bad they can't do wrong.

[Talisker]

Also, interestingly, if you want an HDMI capable next-gen console that also has hi-def optical disc capability, MS just got more expensive than Sony
Looks like they're gambling that most people don't want that.

[Ben Sones]

I really don't understand MS's strategy here.

I suspect their thinking is that with a larger hard drive and the ability to download high-def movies and television shows from their store, the HD optical drive is rendered unnecessary. I'm not sure that consumers will really see it that way, especially considering that the cost of buying media via their store is much higher than buying media on disc (except for movies, which you can't buy at all--they only rent them).

I will say that I think MS was smarter than Sony for not tying their console too closely to the fortunes of one HD format, especially when there is no guarantee that either one of them is going to take off. I think a reasonably-priced seperate drive was a better way to go, there. I still think the Elite is an overpriced dud, though, and not at all the announcement that the market was hoping for. I guess we'll see how it sells. My guess is: not that well. I suspect that most 360 sales will continue to consist of Premium systems.

[Jazar]

I wouldn't say it's a "dud". If I was in the market for a 360 I would defnitely lean towards the Elite simply for the larger HD and the HDMI. It's a ripoff perhaps but I don't like being limited in the connections that I can use, and HDMI certainly has many advantages over component and VGA.

[mouselock]

I suspect their thinking is that with a larger hard drive and the ability to download high-def movies and television shows from their store, the HD optical drive is rendered unnecessary.

This gets back to the "Why am I paying so much extra for the drive then?" question. If you want to encourage me to use your overpriced (and slow) download service, step one is to make sure I can't help but have an extra 100GB of drive space sitting around, looking lonely, making me think "Well, hell, I still haven't really used that space. Maybe I could check out that movie there."

Also unless I'm missing something there's still got to be a significant quality difference on downloaded content vs. HD optical, no? They're not really sending down 20-30GB movies, right? So more compression artifacts and the ilk comparitively would have to be expected.

I will say that I think MS was smarter than Sony for not tying their console too closely to the fortunes of one HD format, especially when there is no guarantee that either one of them is going to take off.

I do too. I just don't understand the purpose of then pretty much single-handedly destroying the price benefit that brings. Yes, I know, if you compare across the closest drive sizes possible the comparitive PS2 is $600. But the $500 unit is what Sony is going to compare to (and it's unclear to me they shouldn't be doing that since, y'know, HDMI is on it and all). For $20 I can get a built in HD optical drive? I'd have to be a moron not to, eh? (Or alternatively, for $20 more I can get a built in HD optical drive and the $100 wireless that the XBox would charge for.)

I just wasn't expecting MS to narrow the price gap with the PS3. It's an odd decision in my eyes. I've been looking for a reason to push me over the precipice into 360 ownership. The Zephyr is almost enough to push me in the other direction.

[Dave Long]

What I want to know is where all these 360s are going to be displayed at places like Target, Wal-Mart, Circuit City and the like? They can barely keep two models on display in those tiny cubbie holes under the games. Now you're going to add a third?

It seems really stupid when you look at it that way. Only Best Buy and EB/Gamestop have enough shelf space to actually put all three models on the floor.

Video game systems really aren't so conducive to iPod-style selling strategies, if only because the amount of physical space isn't there to display all these different models.

[Case]

On the other hand, I understand that the "Elite" badge is just a temporary thing. This Fall, the ordinary white version will be updated with Elite features, and still priced the same as the premium.

Or am I missing something?

[Dave Long]

That's not the way this is being promoted. The page that talks about this new system at Xbox.com makes no indication of it being a limited time offer or of rolling it into the currrent premium.

I think that's all speculation.

Either way, you're looking at a period of three different Xbox 360 models in stores... and if they do roll it into the premium, you've also got a period where Elite units are sitting there next to Premium units with no differences and huge consumer confusion on your hands.

I mean, you've already got consumer confusion with three models of the same thing that look exactly alike visually (except for color with this new one) yet have different functions. That would just add to it.

[JD]

Yeah, if it was really as limited as some rumours had it - 100,000 to 300,000 units - they'd have certainly announced it, or so you'd think. Could have triggered the 'collector' gene in some players.

-Julian

[Moore]

(and slow)

I agree with everything in your post except this. It isnt slow, renting HD movies, they get watchable pretty damned fast. The whoel movie might ake a bit, but you dont ened the whoel thing to start it. Demos/expansions/TV shows also download really fast. It's one area of live I totally cannot complain about. I did read about some problems when it launched the video marketplace, but they must be gone now, because I'm not seeing them.

as for limited, I dont think it's super limited (100k would be retarded, why bother?), but I think the features will get rolled into the premium in the fall and then the black ones gets dropped. Of COURSE they wont talk about it, just like they wouldnt take about the elite before they were ready. They didnt want to hurt premium/hard drive sales before the elite was official, and they dont want to hurt elite sales before they kill it.

[mouselock]

I agree with everything in your post except this. It isnt slow, renting HD movies, they get watchable pretty damned fast. The whoel movie might ake a bit, but you dont ened the whoel thing to start it. Demos/expansions/TV shows also download really fast. It's one area of live I totally cannot complain about. I did read about some problems when it launched the video marketplace, but they must be gone now, because I'm not seeing them.

Depends entirely on your downstream bandwidth though, no?

Any idea what the total amount of downloaded data you need to start watching a movie is? Because if it's more than, say, 300 MB or so, it's quicker for me to hop in the car, run out, and rent a movie unless XBL is pumping out megabyte-per-second bandwidth to individual users (which I doubt the infrastructure supports for any reasonable number of concurrent users).

[rjcc]

Depends entirely on your downstream bandwidth though, no?

Any idea what the total amount of downloaded data you need to start watching a movie is? Because if it's more than, say, 300 MB or so, it's quicker for me to hop in the car, run out, and rent a movie unless XBL is pumping out megabyte-per-second bandwidth to individual users (which I doubt the infrastructure supports for any reasonable number of concurrent users).

it took between 20-30 minutes for superman to become watchable when I downloaded it, and the rest downloaded as I watched. sure I could've gone to the blockbuster I've never entered in my life thats around the corner, but putting aside the necessary time to register as a member, instead of driving over there and picking out a movie, I was playing a bit of rainbow 6 SP.

[Moore]

Depends entirely on your downstream bandwidth though, no?

Any idea what the total amount of downloaded data you need to start watching a movie is? Because if it's more than, say, 300 MB or so, it's quicker for me to hop in the car, run out, and rent a movie unless XBL is pumping out megabyte-per-second bandwidth to individual users (which I doubt the infrastructure supports for any reasonable number of concurrent users).

I guess it'd obvously depend on your bandwidth, but HD stuff starts playing pretty quickly. I usually play a bit of pacman or something and then it's ready. 20-30 minutes is easily a run to a video store to me, except I didnt have to buy an HD player.

[Guido Jones]

the 480p movies are ready to play for me within 2-3 minutes, 720p movies take about 20-30. Plus, I don't have to go to the Video Store to pick them up or return them.

I think the amount of data needed to actually start the movie is determined by your connection - the slower your connection the longer it takes for you to buffer up enough data for continous play.

[espressojim]

Isn't a typical marketing technique to make your top of the line item be high in price, so that your next in line item looks like a 'great deal'? It's a way to keep that middle and bottom end stuff moving, by letting the consumer rationalize that they aren't purchasing the flagship product, and are buying something reasonable and middle of the road (best price/value for that line of products.)

Flagship products are about bragging rights and setting expectations on value. I don't think video card manufacturers sell a lot of their flagship products, but they get to brag about who's on top, and it helps them sell their other cards.

I don't know a whole ton about marketing, so google wasn't much help in trying to search up if this is a real strategy with a specific name. So, if it is, someone let me know...:)

[Qenan]

the 480p movies are ready to play for me within 2-3 minutes, 720p movies take about 20-30. Plus, I don't have to go to the Video Store to pick them up or return them.

For the millions of us who already use netflix, that isn't much of a consideration.

I wanted a bigger drive, but the pricing pushes me back into the wait camp. Maybe the PS3 will show some signs of life, and they'll let me upgrade that drive easily.

[Guido Jones]

For the millions of us who already use netflix, that isn't much of a consideration.

Yeah you're right, waiting 2-3 minutes for the movie to start is actually worse then waiting for it to come in the mail. Gigantic Roll Eyes smilie.

I was responding to someone saying they could easily go to the video store in the time it takes to buffer the data to start a movie, I didn't bring it up.

[Jason Cross]

Isn't a typical marketing technique to make your top of the line item be high in price, so that your next in line item looks like a 'great deal'? It's a way to keep that middle and bottom end stuff moving, by letting the consumer rationalize that they aren't purchasing the flagship product, and are buying something reasonable and middle of the road (best price/value for that line of products.)

This works in some markets, and not in others. Nobody thinks they're not getting the "iPod experience" when they buy a nano or shuffle, though some iPod features (like video) are only available on the hard drive units. And yet those nanos and shuffles make up the vast, vast majority of iPod sales. Similarly, as you said, there's the graphics card things.

There are markets where the worth, and price, of your thingamagig is really determined by the high-end or premium model, though. It's a matter of consumer perception and the way marketing manages it. The PS3 for example, isn't much less of a machine with that 20gb hard drive (certainly not right now, with the amount of downloadable "stuff" they have). But people don't consider that the real PS3, and it has been so unpopular that stores mostly don't even stock it.

I don't think there is danger of the 360 starting to look like a $480 system, though. They got 10 million sales at $299/399 (mostly $399), people "get it" by now. I also don't think stores are going to stock a lot of Elites. So for the greater mass market that don't read game sites religiously, they'll just see "Xbox 360 - $399" in their Best Buy and Target fliers and stuff.

There's something else going on here, and that's the perception of the mass market that the cost of something is relative to its quality. Haagen Dazs ice cream was invented in the Bronx in 1961 - the name is made up to sound Dutch. Combine that with double the price of other ice cream, and people totally bought into the idea that it is somehow this ultra-premium stuff. Luxury automobiles also follow this kind of reasoning - that $55,000 Audi luxury sedan costs the company maybe $5,000 more to make than the $25,000 Jetta. But luxury car buyers won't buy a $35,000 luxury car.

Or take sneakers. Jesus, you think the kids want to be caught dead in a $40 pair of sneakers? No, if they're $150 Nikes, they're better. WAY better. Obviously.

Yeah we might think it's dumb over here, but there's a very real danger to Microsoft lowering Xbox 360 pricing too quickly. If they become too inexpensive too early while the PS3 remains expensive, they run the risk of appearing to be a way less powerful machine - positively last-gen. Because next-gen costs MONEY, and if your game system costs more then it is more powerful. (I know it's absurd, but I'm not talking about regular game site and forum goers. I'm talking about the general seething mass of people who aren't in the know and make up the bulk of the game buying population over the course of a console cycle.)

[Moore]

For the millions of us who already use netflix, that isn't much of a consideration.

I wanted a bigger drive, but the pricing pushes me back into the wait camp. Maybe the PS3 will show some signs of life, and they'll let me upgrade that drive easily.

Netflix rents HD movies that don't require a HD player?

COOL!

[gamadict]

Yeah we might think it's dumb over here, but there's a very real danger to Microsoft lowering Xbox 360 pricing too quickly. If they become too inexpensive too early while the PS3 remains expensive, they run the risk of appearing to be a way less powerful machine - positively last-gen. Because next-gen costs MONEY, and if your game system costs more then it is more powerful. (I know it's absurd, but I'm not talking about regular game site and forum goers. I'm talking about the general seething mass of people who aren't in the know and make up the bulk of the game buying population over the course of a console cycle.)

I get the feeling that come GTAIV's release this fall for both systems, if one system is $200 cheaper then the other, people would get over this real quick

[Qenan]

Netflix rents HD movies that don't require a HD player?

COOL!

Fair point. I'm so uninterested in HD movies that it didn't even occur to me.

[mouselock]

[Yeah we might think it's dumb over here, but there's a very real danger to Microsoft lowering Xbox 360 pricing too quickly. If they become too inexpensive too early while the PS3 remains expensive, they run the risk of appearing to be a way less powerful machine - positively last-gen.

Because, god knows, a console price drop in the first year and a half of it's lifetime is historically unheard of.

Look, I'd buy this argument if they'd said "Hey, y'know, people are paying $400, let's shore up our market position by including extra value added while not lowering our price. How bout we up the HD space and add in HDMI and keep the premium at $$399? Then we can kick the current sku down to $299. Value add across the board but we don't have to worry about being priced so far below Sony that people think the 360 is more like the Wii than the PS3."

I'd totally get that, even if I'd grumble a bit since I don't really care about HDMI or a bigger HD. But adding these things in and upping the price? Not so much. To me it looks more like they're saying "Look, Sony's stuck at that price point, so we might as well screw the customers more. We can still point and say we're cheaper than them!"

I know the businesses aren't in it for the customer. But I prefer dealing with ones who can at least make a semi-plausible case that they care somewhat about the customer. Upping prices almost always makes that near impossible in my eyes. The reason I've failed to buy a 360 so far has nothing to do with the fact that it didn't have HDMI or a >20 GB drive until now. While I'm not sure that adding these @ $399 would have pushed me into buying one anyway, I can guarantee that adding them at an $80 premium sure as fuck won't. Instead, as I've already said, it erodes that huge $200 barrier between an XBox top-of-the-line system and a PS3 top-of-the-line system.

[jeffd]

Mouselock your arguments literally make no sense.

"Man what a dick move, releasing another 360 SKU at 479... makes me want to go drop 600 on a PS3?"

[Moore]

I'm a bit foggy on how it's screwing anyone myself.

[mouselock]

Mouselock your arguments literally make no sense.

"Man what a dick move, releasing another 360 SKU at 479... makes me want to go drop 600 on a PS3?"

If I'm already dropping $480 on a 360, it's a lot smaller delta to drop $600 on a PS3 than it is ifthe 360 costs $400. (About 40% smaller.)

Yes, it's an absolutely higher limit, but I tend to parse it like this:

Well, I could buy the $480 360. But I'll probably want the HD player later. I could just go ahead and spend the extra $120 now, and that would have a hi-def optical drive in it already.

Previously, it made perfect sense to buy the $400 360 and wait out my decision on the HD-DVD because it was an add-on that cost me no money to wait on. Now the potential cost if I wait on getting it is $80 (All other things being equal across the PS3 and 360, which of course they're not.)

Again, it goes back to "Who exactly is the target audience for the new 360." I'm saying that it's people who want a combination game player/media box, because if it's not, what's compelling them to buy the larger hard drive or to care about having an HDMI connection? (The only other compulsion I can see is "having the newest tech", but how is that not as much an argument for the PS3 as for the 360?)


I'm a bit foggy on how it's screwing anyone myself.

Well, charging $180 for HDMI and another 100GB doesn't strike me as bending over backwards to service the customer. Having literally no discounted upgrade path for previous adopters could be seen as screwing the early adopters (but then that's apparently okay since early adopters always get screwed). However, despite my choice of words, I guess what I meant is that I was rather thinking MS would take the opportunity of reduced costs and such to offer a redesign in a manner that made the system an even greater value unequivocally. Instead, they've introduced an option which I have to weigh pros/cons to know whether it's worth buying, and by so doing have suddenly turned it into a problem of me being deadlocked within their own product line.

I've literally gone from thinking:

Do I buy a 360 premium? Do I buy a 360 elite? Well, hell, if I'm considering the elite, should I just look at a PS3 then? If I want the HD optical it's actually cheaper.

Previously it was simply:

Can I find a 360 with a good deal somewhere?

I'm not seeing how that helps MS. They've jumped the huge gap that was "insurmountable" between the PS3 and the 360 in my mind, and they've done so without adding so much overwhelming value to the overall package that the 360 isn't the clear winner. Sure I could still get the 360 Premium, but am I going to regret it later if I do? I better make sure, since the stand alone price of the HD alone makes it utterly stupid to buy it after the fact.

Giving your consumer additional pros/cons to weigh is a bad idea IMO. It was bad when it was core vs. premium, and it's bad now.

[Bill Dungsroman]

I'm not seeing how that helps MS.
Um, they make money?

[mouselock]

Um, they make money?

Sorry. Abortive sentence fragment. I knew what I was thinking.

What I meant was "I'm not seeng how that helps MS get better market saturation." Unless we're supposing there are tons of people out there who weren't buying a 360 because it didn't have a big enough hard drive or a HDMI output. Seems like it's mainly aimed at even more "hardcore" gamers than the hardcore crowd that the premium originally seemed aimed at. Not the direction I would have expected them to aim a year and a half in, really.

[jeffd]

OK that makes more sense.

Here's the thing though: the 360 still costs 400 dollars. The Premium SKU hasn't gone away.

[Jason Cross]

I get the feeling that come GTAIV's release this fall for both systems, if one system is $200 cheaper then the other, people would get over this real quick

Oh, they're safe enough at the current $200 price difference (yeah I know, lower end models etc etc. Retailers are mostly only stocking 60GB PS3s and Premium 360s - that's what's on the shelves, that's what are advertised, that's the price the general public "sees").

What I mean is, there's some danger to the 360 being, oh, $300 while the PS3 is $600. I agree with you - a big-name game like GTA4 with a simultaneous release, running on the demo units for both systems in the stores so everyone can see it's the freakin' same, would end that worry quickly. I'm a firm believer that MS should drop the price, and as I said here earlier, should have done so in concert with this "Elite" release.

I'm just sayin', there are other market forces at work that we, as core gamers writing on game forums, aren't particularly affected by nor care about.

What I meant was "I'm not seeng how that helps MS get better market saturation."

It doesn't. It helps them get more money out of people who were gonna buy it anyway. It gives an option for people who would spend more on a 360 the opportunity to do so.

Because, god knows, a console price drop in the first year and a half of it's lifetime is historically unheard of.

It's not like the price of the 360 is determined by some calendar, counting the months since launch. If the 360 was selling as much as they could manufacture at $400 for the next two years, they wouldn't lower the price. (That won't happen, of course.) Pricing is determined by manufacturing capacity, and the price of the competition. MS will move the price when sales start to dry up, when PS3 sales start to go through the roof, or when the competition lowers their price. Months on the market has little to do with it, except in that roundabout "more months on the market is more time we have spent working to cost-reduce and increase manufacturing capacity which thus gives us more pricing options" way. I want a cheaper 360 as much as anyone. Don't take my posts as an argument for keeping the price up or release a more expensive model - I have very clearly stated in like very single post my position on that. I'm just trying to say that MS has a lot of reasons for pricing things the way they are. Totally self-serving, and often short-sighted reasons, yes. But they're not just brainless idiots over there.

FWIW, the PS2 launched in Japan on March 4, 2000 at 39,800 yen. There was a really minor price drop 15 months later., but the first realprice drop in Japan was 20 months after launch (to 29,800 yen). In North America, the launch price of $299 stuck around for almost 19 months (from Oct 2000 to May 2002). The 360 hasn't yet been on the market that long.

[mouselock]

In North America, the launch price of $299 stuck around for almost 19 months (from Oct 2000 to May 2002). The 360 hasn't yet been on the market that long.

19 vs. 16 is a relatively small difference, especially since they're pushing out the new hardware now. None of the consoles you're comparing to ever really went through functional design changes either. The functionality change of the 360 is not such that it screws up the compatibility across 360 platforms, but it is a functionality change.

Basically, MS is doing the equivalent of Nintendo releasing the GBA SP or the DS Lite without obsoleting the old model, and with a price increase. I can't think of consoles since the days of the original NES that have done that (there may have been some of this back on the ADAM and the like, my memory gets a bit hazy at that distance).

And I know you're not arguing that the 360 shouldn't have had a price drop. I'm just pointing out that they could have done a value add for a "virtual" price drop and not run afoul of the whole "We don't want to appear weak relative to the PS3 by way of price." issue that you mentioned. Instead they've muddied up the waters significantly in what was a clear (winning) price-gap for them. Seems rather short-sighted to me. Maybe they can afford to be since Sony doesn't have any guns to bring to bear on them. I do wonder though if the plan is to do this now and then actually price drop at the 19 month mark (as was originally mentioned with the limited edition "Elite" model) whether dropping the price as Sony actually starts rolling out their new games doesn't send a similar message about relative worth in competition. Seems like that type of logic would cut both ways. (Whereas to me, at least, it would be easier to spin the "We're adding value/dropping the prices to better service our customer!" idea, since there's nothing they could possibly be reacting to from the Sony camp; it's too far after launch for that idea to stick, and there are no new games/peripherals/announcements of note on the horizon to really let MS get labelled with "fearing" for the 360 vs. the PS3.)

[Moore]

19 vs. 16 is a relatively small difference, especially since they're pushing out the new hardware now. None of the consoles you're comparing to ever really went through functional design changes either. The functionality change of the 360 is not such that it screws up the compatibility across 360 platforms, but it is a functionality change.

Basically, MS is doing the equivalent of Nintendo releasing the GBA SP or the DS Lite without obsoleting the old model, and with a price increase. I can't think of consoles since the days of the original NES that have done that (there may have been some of this back on the ADAM and the like, my memory gets a bit hazy at that distance).

And I know you're not arguing that the 360 shouldn't have had a price drop. I'm just pointing out that they could have done a value add for a "virtual" price drop and not run afoul of the whole "We don't want to appear weak relative to the PS3 by way of price." issue that you mentioned. Instead they've muddied up the waters significantly in what was a clear (winning) price-gap for them. Seems rather short-sighted to me. Maybe they can afford to be since Sony doesn't have any guns to bring to bear on them. I do wonder though if the plan is to do this now and then actually price drop at the 19 month mark (as was originally mentioned with the limited edition "Elite" model) whether dropping the price as Sony actually starts rolling out their new games doesn't send a similar message about relative worth in competition. Seems like that type of logic would cut both ways. (Whereas to me, at least, it would be easier to spin the "We're adding value/dropping the prices to better service our customer!" idea, since there's nothing they could possibly be reacting to from the Sony camp; it's too far after launch for that idea to stick, and there are no new games/peripherals/announcements of note on the horizon to really let MS get labelled with "fearing" for the 360 vs. the PS3.)


Please, it's barely a change in the console.

The color.

One connector offering very very very little benfit (upscales DVDs, just like VGA? Ok for ICT enabled content that wont exist for a decade? yay!)

A large hard drive that can let you rent 24 movies at one time! who the fuck needs that?

that is ALL it changes. It's more like the GBAsp revision that brought the screen up to DSlite brightness.

[Dave Long]

I think it's kind of silly to buy a 360 right now unless you desperately want to play one of the games on it. If they don't reduce the price of the system sometime in 2007, I'll be very surprised.

Also, this new 360 isn't really like the DS Lite or GBA SP. Those were offered for the same price as the current model, and in fact the price of the original GBA was reduced after the SP shipped IIRC. The DS Phat was just phased out slowly as the Lite appeared. This new 360 is more expensive than the current model.

[stusser]

It's really for the hard drive, and like someone said earlier in this threat, the only thing you can actually fill that much space with is movies and TV shows, which of course are a revenue source for microsoft. It's asinine. The elite should cost $400, the premium should cost $300, and the core should be phased out entirely. The hard drive should be subsidized on every model.

[Jason Cross]

19 vs. 16 is a relatively small difference, especially since they're pushing out the new hardware now. None of the consoles you're comparing to ever really went through functional design changes either. The functionality change of the 360 is not such that it screws up the compatibility across 360 platforms, but it is a functionality change.

Well, they added an ethernet port to the PS2.

Basically, MS is doing the equivalent of Nintendo releasing the GBA SP or the DS Lite without obsoleting the old model, and with a price increase.

yep, basically. Which is why I'm arguing that they really should have done this together with a price drop.

Of course, the GBA SP and DS Lite essentially make the older models useless - they don't do anything more, they're just smaller and brighter. In the case of the 360, there's a totally legit reason to keep the 20GB model around. If people don't want that much hard drive space, they shouldn't have to pay for it, because you can still play all the same games - and they'll look and play the same.

I'm just pointing out that they could have done a value add for a "virtual" price drop and not run afoul of the whole "We don't want to appear weak relative to the PS3 by way of price." issue that you mentioned. Instead they've muddied up the waters significantly in what was a clear (winning) price-gap for them. Seems rather short-sighted to me.

Agreed. I know they want to provide an upscale model for people who are willing to pay for it, because business 101 says you should get from each customer as much as they'll pay. But in a race for platform establishment, this ain't the time for that.

I do wonder though if the plan is to do this now and then actually price drop at the 19 month mark (as was originally mentioned with the limited edition "Elite" model) whether dropping the price as Sony actually starts rolling out their new games doesn't send a similar message about relative worth in competition.

See, if it was me, this would be my game plan. The 360 is gonna start getting real hot around August or so (Blue Dragon and BioShock in August, ?? in Sept maybe Halo 3, GTA4 in Oct...etc). If Microsoft made the 360 $100 cheaper - for every model including elite - right when that ride kicks off in August, they can really start to run away with the market share in NA and Europe. And that'll be too early for Sony to drop their price, so if Sony does do it they'll be reacting to the 360 and taking a bigger bath on each unit.

[Rock8man]

So it looks like Microsoft might have sneaked out the 65nm consoles after all..... in the form of Halo 3 Editions of the console:

http://www.kotaku.com.au/games/2007/09/microsoft_smuggles_65nm_inside_1.html

[Podunk]

Those sneaky bastards.

[Chris Nahr]

They had to find some way to make the Ugly Edition attractive.

[stusser]

Pretty much, yes. Hopefully the new 360s with the forza/marvel bundle will be 65nm.

[ciparis]

Going by the forum linked above, lots of people with Halo 3 consoles still seem to have the older CPUs. Not enough reports yet, but lot 734+ seems to have a better chance of containing the 65nm CPU.

[DennyA]

They had to find some way to make the Ugly Edition attractive.
I completely agree that the Halo console looks like crap in photos, but looks pretty cool in person. The color doesn't photograph well, and the graphic accents are subtle on the photo but look pretty slick in person.

I'd have considered one if there had been a 120GB version.

[Woolen Horde]

Woooo, I have lot 734.

The Halo 360 is a lot nicer in person than in pictures. At least to me. I'll have to try and figure out if I have the 65nm.

However, at this point, waiting for Falcon is pretty moot, guys. Only the CPU got shrunk. The GPU is still 90nm and doesn't shrink till sometime next year. It's the GPU that was the weak point, which is why it got the new heatsink.

[krayzkrok]

Going by the forum linked above, lots of people with Halo 3 consoles still seem to have the older CPUs. Not enough reports yet, but lot 734+ seems to have a better chance of containing the 65nm CPU.

So why would MS keep this quiet? It's not as though nobody is aware of the problem - even MS has admitted to it with their 3 year warranty extension. It would certainly inspire more confidence in buying a 360! The reason I haven't got one yet is 100% down to the reliability problems, and I can't believe I'm the only one.

[edit] Question answered by Woolen Horde!

[rjcc]

have you thought this through? there's no guarantee that the switch to a smaller process or the new heatsinks will fix it.

manufacturers generally don't publicize hardware revisions.

[krayzkrok]

There's no guarantee, but it should certainly help given that the flaw is caused by overheating. Given that I live in a hot and humid climate, this is of particular relevance to me. I agree that manufacturers don't usually publicise hardware revisions, but that's usually when there aren't widely-publiced, systemic flaws that cause catastrophic failure even under normal operating conditions in an unacceptably high percentage of units.

[jafd]

have you thought this through?
It's looking like that's a big "no."

[krayzkrok]

Well obviously they won't ever guarantee it, they're a viable business.