Morrowind not selling well enough?

[AIM]

Check out the top ten PC games for July 7-13, and the top twenty for June:

http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/news/0,10870,2875615,00.html


Morrowind got bumped out of the top 10 pretty quickly I must say. For a game that took 4+ years to complete, Bethesda Softworks has to be very very disapointed about the sales of this game. I bet the game cost them a ton of money to produce.

Is the Xbox version selling well? Anyone know?

And...

I have a feeling that Neverwinter Nights will also have a brief stay in the top 10. It's allready down to number 4 and it will probably continue to slide down further in the coming weeks. And this game took 4+ years to complete also. I'm sure it wasn't cheap.

By the way...

Medal of Honor and GTA 3 are kicking some major ass. And when the hell are the Sims going to die? God... Someone end this damn game.

It's allways interseting to see how well the PC games are doing....

:D

[Tyjenks]

Wow!!! The new Backyard Baseball 2003 is out. How did that one get past all of our radars?

AIM: The Sims will never die. I am afraid they are the Aerosmith of PC Games. No matter how miserable the material gets, the core fans will buy whatever they put out and there is a lot of each: fans and miserable material.

[Wholly Schmidt]

When I feel like giving up on gaming entirely, I like to look at Japanese console game sales charts. Nothing will make you want to hang up your controllers in shame faster.

[Bub, Andrew]

Wow!!! The new Backyard Baseball 2003 is out. How did that one get past all of our radars?


It's made for little kids. Are you a little kid? Then I'm not surprised it "got past your radar". I'm glad little kids are playing it though.

[Tyjenks]

Wow!!! The new Backyard Baseball 2003 is out. How did that one get past all of our radars?


It's made for little kids. Are you a little kid? Then I'm not surprised it "got past your radar". I'm glad little kids are playing it though.

I know what it is. All of the Backyard series seems to sell like hotcakes. As soon as my daughter is a little older I plan on picking up the B'ball version.

Just trying to make a little joke.

Thanks for policing these posts, though, so those of us living in ignorance can be sufficiently chastised and brought up to speed.

[Bub, Andrew]

Hey, some people have a problem with people dissing gaming in general (see other thread), I have a problem with people dissing children's gaming selling well. And I inferred the dis from your joke. No offense intended, just being a smartass.

Your daughter will probably love the Backyard series (I've only played the earlier versions). But they're simple, feature real-world players in cute and short "paid less and therefore less whiney" form, and offer the best that sports gaming offers. The opportunity to play a season and accumulate stats at the end and the opportunity for her to beat her daddy at something.

So be sure to let her win now and then.

[Qenan]

Check out the top ten PC games for July 7-13, and the top twenty for June:

http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/news/0,10870,2875615,00.html


Morrowind got bumped out of the top 10 pretty quickly I must say. For a game that took 4+ years to complete, Bethesda Softworks has to be very very disapointed about the sales of this game. I bet the game cost them a ton of money to produce.


Well, given that I played for three weeks or so and haven't touched it since, I'm not surprised. It looked great but the gameplay isn't even as good as Daggerfall -- not enough real dungeons, not enough suspense. And the game gets easy too quickly.

It's not a bad game, but it's not a great game, either. So I think it's probably getting the sales it deserves.

[Tyjenks]

Bub,

To quote Scrubs, "It's all good in the hood."

I completely understand your point of view. I wish it had been a Barbie game. Would you have been cool with that? :)

What I do find amusing is that many of us continuously and seriously debate the merits and shortcomings of these games and what developers need to do to make them better and thereby sell more. Then you look at the numbers and kids games, the Sims, and, until recently, Roller Coaster Tycoon dominate the charts. We have these lofty ideas (ideals?) for games and are just a tiny, tiny portion of the purchasing public. :wink:

[Bub, Andrew]

Heh, I'm resigned to the whole inevitability of the Barbie game thing. I guess I really don't mind, so long as it's good. I have a daughter too. Now, Sid Meier's Barbie! that would be something!

I think what you're noticing could also be said of movies, music, books, even food. Only the connoiseurs really enjoy the good stuff and a lot of great games are an acquired taste.

[Reeko]

People really anticipated these games a lot, so I'm not surprised that their sales shot up and then dropped off quickly.

As for Xbox Morrowind, most websites stopped taking pre-orders well before it went gold. So, yeah it's probably doing pretty well. Shoot, they may be looking at their 4th million-seller. Now is a great time to be publishing a good Xbox game. There's all this installed base with nothing to do. HALO gets old after a while.

[xahlt]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if game companies use their own list to determine what they rank by filtering out games that have superhuman methods of staying on the charts:

1. filter out all Blizzard games
2. filter out all Maxis games
3. filter out any game with the words "extreme hunting" in it
4. filter out any Myst derivatives

Then determine where your game stands relatively from there.

[Desslock]

Daggerfall never even made the monthly top 10 list for PC (it made a couple of weeks), but it had incredibly long legs -- it sold steadily, at full retail price, for a couple of years. I think Morrowind will enjoy decent longevity for the same reason -- if you're going to recommend an RPG beyond the action/RPG hybrids, there's still a short list (NWN, BG2 (although intimidating for newbies), Fallout and planescape games (getting long in the tooth), maybe Wizardry 8 or MM7/8 if you think they're patient enough).

[Bub, Andrew]

It's hard to judge Morrowind's sales right now because RPG sales are being cannibalized*. Dungeon Siege, Neverwinter Nights, Warcraft III, Freedom Force, all on some level (like the box) claim to be role-playing games. All are competing for the RPG market. Especially DS, NWN and Morrowind. Plus, Icewind Dale 2 is due in a little over a month. I think Desslock is right to think Morrowind might follow in Daggerfall's footsteps. Bethesda just has to keep it front and center until the word of mouth carries - and despite detractors here Morrowind is enjoying excellent word of mouth.

Also, aren't these sales charts driven by Wal-Mart sales? I'd be surprised if Morrowind was selling well at Wal-Mart, Toys R Us, or Target.

*except on the Xbox, where it has no RPG competition

[Tyjenks]

I had to make a choice between investing time in NWN or Morrowind. There was a pretty long thread (Morrowind v. Neverwinter) on the CGO forums and maybe here also. I chose Neverwinter and plan on picking up Morrowind if and when I get through. I wonder how many folks are doing the same.

[Tyjenks]

Heh, I'm resigned to the whole inevitability of the Barbie game thing. I guess I really don't mind, so long as it's good. I have a daughter too. Now, Sid Meier's Barbie! that would be something!


I wish she was a little older and I could justify to my wife a GBA (see Tom Chick's thread for why I do not have one. I did buy a Mary Kate and Ashley game for my niece. I made sure I told the clerk that, as well).

I am glad we staightened things out, Mr. Bub. I was about to go back to your 20th anniversary Hubbub article and find something in it to make fun of you about. Even though I liked it initially. :lol:

http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/depart/jul02/hubbub20.html

[Anonymous]

The monthly NPD lists include Best Buy, EB, Gamestop, etc...and so they are more accurate representation.

The weekly lists only include the Costco's and other non-hardcore gaming markets. That's why you see Starcraft Battlechest on there all the time and titles like The Sims.

I'm not sure where Wal Mart falls. I actually think I read they aren't reporting to NPD at all, but may be wrong.

In any case, its the monthly lists that should carry more weight.

I've heard that Morrowind's PC sales have slowed, but their Xbox sales are still strong. I'd imagine all those other PC game titles are diluting the PC dollars. Also, Bethesda distributes their own product so it may be their distribution muscle isn't on par with EA and Vivendi.

[Desslock]

>I'm not sure where Wal Mart falls. I actually think I read they aren't reporting to NPD at all, but may be wrong.

Wallmart reports to NPD, and has a huge impact on its results. The only significant U.S. retailer that's not included in NPD's results is Frys, which I guess is a decent-sized chain on the west coast.

[Qenan]

>I'm not sure where Wal Mart falls. I actually think I read they aren't reporting to NPD at all, but may be wrong.

Wallmart reports to NPD, and has a huge impact on its results. The only significant U.S. retailer that's not included in NPD's results is Frys, which I guess is a decent-sized chain on the west coast.

Just fyi, Fry's Electronics isn't only on the west coast, we have them here in Texas as well.

[Supertanker]

Just fyi, Fry's Electronics isn't only on the west coast, we have them here in Texas as well.

Maybe the world can get chemo or something before the cancer spreads any more. I like reading their ads, but their prices are unremarkable for anything that is not an advertised special.

[DennyA]

Supertanker,

Ah, but Fry's gives new meaning to the term "customer service."

I've honestly never dealt with a company quite like them.

Glad the nearest one is a couple thousand miles away.

[Robert Sharp]

According to Extended Play today, Morrowind is the best selling console game out there for all systems. It's ahead of number 2 Eternal Darkness, and number 3 GTA3 (amazing how it is still selling so well...who doesn't have it?). That's a good sign. It sold well for the PC as well. I think being in the top ten for even a couple of months is great actually.

Personally, it's the best game I have played in a long time. I completely disagree with Qenan. Of course, neither of our opinions matter much as far as sales go. Whether or not the two of us liked it won't mean much to Bethesda ;). But I would say that it has already sold well enough to warrant a sequel, and that's great news for me. I wish more people would try it. If you give it time (the beginning of the game is very disorienting and in many ways boring) I think you will learn to really appreciate it. I like it much better than Daggerfall, which I never got into because of the random dungeons and repitition.

If nothing else, I hope Morrowind is a sign to other developers that this sort of game will work. It's ambitious and open-ended, which is great. If it were combined with the attention to detail and NPC interaction of games like Planescape, I think it would be much better.

[Qenan]

Just fyi, Fry's Electronics isn't only on the west coast, we have them here in Texas as well.

Maybe the world can get chemo or something before the cancer spreads any more. I like reading their ads, but their prices are unremarkable for anything that is not an advertised special.

That's being kind. I enjoy walking around and looking at their stuff, but their prices are generally uncompetitive with shopping around for the same item on the internet. I really only use them for small items where the price isn't much of a factor.

But hey, that's retail.

[Qenan]

According to Extended Play today, Morrowind is the best selling console game out there for all systems. It's ahead of number 2 Eternal Darkness, and number 3 GTA3 (amazing how it is still selling so well...who doesn't have it?). That's a good sign. It sold well for the PC as well. I think being in the top ten for even a couple of months is great actually.

Personally, it's the best game I have played in a long time. I completely disagree with Qenan. Of course, neither of our opinions matter much as far as sales go. Whether or not the two of us liked it won't mean much to Bethesda ;). But I would say that it has already sold well enough to warrant a sequel, and that's great news for me. I wish more people would try it. If you give it time (the beginning of the game is very disorienting and in many ways boring) I think you will learn to really appreciate it. I like it much better than Daggerfall, which I never got into because of the random dungeons and repitition.

If nothing else, I hope Morrowind is a sign to other developers that this sort of game will work. It's ambitious and open-ended, which is great. If it were combined with the attention to detail and NPC interaction of games like Planescape, I think it would be much better.

I'm curious, what exactly do you like about it? I enjoyed the non-linearity, but after a while I felt like I was living in a land full of zombies. And as I said, the dungeons weren't very impressive. Daggerfall's were too big and crazy, but even that would be better than the endless caves thing. (There are a few big ones, but not nearly enough.)

And the game is really, really easy -- at least with a fighter.

I didn't end up hating the game, I just got so bored I stopped playing. I played Daggerfall for many, many months, so by comparison I find Morrowind lacking.

[Jason Becker]

"And as I said, the dungeons weren't very impressive."

"I felt like I was living in a land full of zombies. "

You could use those phrases for Daggerfall too.


" I just got so bored I stopped playing. I played Daggerfall for many, many months, so by comparison I find Morrowind lacking."


How was Daggerfall with its repetative randomly generated dungeons and NPC's not just as boring?

[Qenan]

"And as I said, the dungeons weren't very impressive."

"I felt like I was living in a land full of zombies. "

You could use those phrases for Daggerfall too.

Yeah, OK, I didn't give much detail. The average dungeon in Daggerfall was much bigger, and much scarier -- I remember being on pins and needles every time I turned a corner. The dungeons in Morrowind tend to be small and not very scary. As the game went on they also became very easy, for the most part. (That didn't happen in Daggerfall because the mobs were scaled to the strength of your character.)



" I just got so bored I stopped playing. I played Daggerfall for many, many months, so by comparison I find Morrowind lacking."

How was Daggerfall with its repetative randomly generated dungeons and NPC's not just as boring?

Fair question. The NPC's in Daggerfall were also terrible; you'd think that with the improvements in CPU power, etc. there could be some improvement, but there really wasn't any.

I liked the random dungeons in Daggerfall better because they were bigger and looked more like dungeons to me. Yes, they were random and kind of crappy for that reason -- the dungeons in a game like MM6 were much better. But in Morrowind most of the dungeons were quite small, and mostly they looked like caves -- with the result that 1) they were also repetitious, and 2) hand-designed or not, they weren't impressive.

I remember the whole Monty Haul loot aspect as being a big part of Daggerfall. It was less of a factor in Morrowind, in part because I didn't have a cart to haul everything back with. That omission also made the game a little flatter for me.

[Anonymous]

I remember the whole Monty Haul loot aspect as being a big part of Daggerfall. It was less of a factor in Morrowind,>>>>>

My biggest problem with this in Morrowind, is who the Hell can afford to buy the 52000 Gold sword I just found? :cry:

[Ken Hicks]

I've played about every RPG since 1990 and Morrowind has given me the most enjoyable game experience yet. I particularly liked the M&M, Ultima, and Wizardry series, Fallout 2, Betrayal at Krondor, BG 1&2, Planescape, Icewind Dale, and especially Ultima IX because of the graphics (but not the story). Most other games I did not finish due to boredom or something better came along and this includes Daggerfall: the dungeons, story and NPC's became more of the same very quickly.
I probably have 200 or more hours in Morrowind mainly because I love the visuals, plus the story and quests are not boring to me; I also find the mods keep my interest alive and add to the gameplay.
I'm in no hurry to play Neverwinter Nights because I'm having so much fun with Morrowind, and, for me, this is highly unusual as I usually buy and try every RPG the day it comes out.

Ken

[Murph]

I particularly liked [snip] and especially Ultima IX because of the graphics

So, you're the other guy who liked Ultima IX?? Don't say that too loud around these guys...They're brutal about that game!! :)

Oh, and I think I'm the last guy here who doesn't have Morrowind yet. I'll be getting it soon, but I'm in the middle of the Computer Upgrade from Hell (it's been months!! Aaaargh!!), and until that's done, I don't think I can run it, anyway. I'll be getting it soon, but I'm loving NWN.

[Robert Sharp]

Well, I can understand the dungeon problem, but I like having smaller, more concise dungeons. The huge sprawling dungeons didn't do much for me, to be honest. I do like the colors of Daggerfall better, as I get sick of all the greys and browns (I need a tree mod!). And yes, the game is easy if you are a fighter type, though I am a fighter type and I still get killed at 28th level! Go take on some dremora lords or lich king types and you won't have an easy fight of it. BTW, you can up the difficulty level if you want. Of course, the combat is not good, IMO, and hotkeys do'nt help me manage my inventory as well as I would like. There aren't enough of them, and they have to cover too much.

But none of that is what impresses me. The game is flawed in a lot of ways. But, it is incredibly immersive. Unlike Daggerfall, I feel like I am in the world. I forgot to take my Indoril helmet off one time and an Ordinator attacked me, so I killed him. Now, every time I see one, they attack me. People remember me, and the things they say to me reflect how they feel toward me and my reputation in the world. Since everything is hand placed, the world has a continuity that is easy to appreciate. I spend lots of times doing quests and such and just soaking up the world, which is VERY detailed compared to Daggerfall.

So I guess in the end, if you want a character developing RPG, with nice combat, Morrowind isn't going to work very well. However, if you want to live in a world for 80 hours or so, it's perfect. The graphics are incredible, which helps suck you in. The NPC interaction is still a bit lifeless and I wish there were changes over time to make the world seem more alive. But overall, I really feel like I am out on an island trying to live my character's life. That's an experience I have never gotten out of another RPG.

[Qenan]

Actually, you just reminded me of another thing I liked better about Daggerfall -- it had seasons. I remember loving the first time I saw snowfall.

Don't get me wrong, Morrowind is not bad, it just didn't give me the zing I got from Daggerfall.

[Gordon Cameron]

I never played Daggerfall. It came out in the Dark Times, after I'd gotten rid of my defunct Amiga and before I got my first PC. I do agree, however, that the dungeons in Morrowind weren't so great. Only a few were large -- the first Dwemer dungeon where you have to get the puzzle box, and then one of the Ashlander tombs later on. Even the climactic Dagoth Ur fortress wasn't very big; I think the whole "Final Battle" sequence takes about 20 minutes tops. I guess that's one advantage to randomly-generated dungeons -- though they are completely devoid of personality, they are also as big and numerous as you want them to be. (Since the Morrowind dungeons were mostly small and devoid of personality, maybe the Daggerfall approach is better.)

Seasons. Sigh. I like snow in an RPG, though what weather Morrowind *did* have was brilliantly done. I played the game for a month solid and have pretty much stopped since then, though I still boot it up from time to time to wander Vvardenfell a bit. I get attached to an RPG's sense of "place" and like to come back to it even years later.

Though I played Morrowind pretty intensely, and certainly got my money's worth, I can't call it the best RPG I've played, nor even the best recent one. I consider both Baldur's Gate II and Avernum II to be superior. Now Avernum II had some *real* dungeons, although it also had the advantage that they didn't have to be rendered in full 3D. My problems with Morrowind might have had more to do with unrealistic expectations than anything else.

I'm still waiting for a real "living" world in an RPG. Not just NPC scheduling (which even MW didn't have), but NPC's with complex AI routines, and dynamic economies, and dynamic ecologies, dynamic politics/factions/wars, etc., and all the rest of it. Probably a pipe dream but who knows? Maybe some day, when PC game graphics have plateaued and we are no longer rushing to get the next video card or the next RAM upgrade, games can be slowly expanded over a period of years. Then you could lay out the skeleton of an RPG world, and over time, layer by layer, make it ever more complex and subtle.

Sorry, got off on a tangent there...

[Robert Sharp]

Isn't Project Ego supposed to have a lot of that?

[Qenan]

What's Project Ego?

[Mark Asher]

The next game from Mr. Ego, Peter Molyneux. It's an RPG. Things that happen to your character affect his looks and makeup, etc. Get a scar early, you'll have it through the whole game. Chop wood to get strong. Etc. Molyneux will redefine gaming once more, just like he did with Black & White.

[Gordon Cameron]

Isn't Project Ego supposed to have a lot of that?

Yeah, I'm keeping an eye on that one. Skeptical, but keeping an eye on it...

[Joe O'Malley]

Yeah, seasons would be nice. A little different cover, maybe snowstorms or travel hazards on the mountains in winter.

[Joe O'Malley]

Uhm, that should have said "colors," not "covers."

[xahlt]

You're all cynics, Project Ego will change the face of acorn planting in RPG games forever.

[Alan Au]

Molyneux will redefine gaming once more, just like he did with Black & White.
Game? Oh, you must be referring to "sandbox with plot" again. :D

- Alan

[Sparky]

I hope Project Ego's going to have characters that actually poop, like B&W did. I mean, the Sims go to the bathroom, but you don't get to SEE the results. That's the genius of Molyneux.

[antlers]

I'm also an Ultima IX fan. If you were one of the lucky ones with a machine that played it properly, and you didn't try to play it before it was fully patched, it was a really beautiful-looking RPG recognizably in the Ultima style. I don't usually replay RPG's but I went back into Ultima IX just to wander around and look.

I can't get another RPG until I finish off Wizardry 8, but I'm leaning towards Morrowind as my next because I think it will be most like Ultima IX.

[Alan Au]

Ultima IX? That's the one that lets you cross the ocean on a custom built bridge made of bread, bottles, and scrolls, right? :P

- Alan

[Sean Tudor]

It was only this year that I was able to play Ultima IX properly for the first time. I upgraded my old PC to an Athlon XP 1900+ and GF4 Ti4600.

It isn't that bad. And with some of the fan patches it plays even better and is relatively crash free.

[Kyle Wilson]

Molyneux will redefine gaming once more, just like he did with Black & White.

Wait, wait, could that have been sarcasm?

:)

[Qenan]

The next game from Mr. Ego, Peter Molyneux. It's an RPG. Things that happen to your character affect his looks and makeup, etc. Get a scar early, you'll have it through the whole game. Chop wood to get strong. Etc. Molyneux will redefine gaming once more, just like he did with Black & White.

Oh. I didn't like Black & White, so...

[Alan Au]

What? Black and White was an astounding example of....

cutscenes that you couldn't skip. :(

I loaded it back on my machine last week to see if it was really as tedious and bothersome as I remembered it. It was.

- Alan

[Gordon Cameron]

I hope Project Ego's going to have characters that actually poop, like B&W did. I mean, the Sims go to the bathroom, but you don't get to SEE the results. That's the genius of Molyneux.

Nosehairs, don't forget clipping nosehairs.

[Jack]

About MW, I too suffered from PR-pumped anticipation. I found that the dungeons are just a little more interesting than a bowl of chilled oatmeal -- but I'm on the "beta team," testing new patches and plugins. The devs are good people. I still have hope that the relatively empty MW world can be populated by official and unofficial mods.

As for Molyneux, he raped me again for $50, as he did for Dungeon Keeper. May he be bitch-slapped in Hell and forced to forever corral and feed the brainless reviewers who gleefully gave B&W high marks before actually playing the game.

[Mark Asher]

About MW, I too suffered from PR-pumped anticipation. I found that the dungeons are just a little more interesting than a bowl of chilled oatmeal -- but I'm on the "beta team," testing new patches and plugins. The devs are good people. I still have hope that the relatively empty MW world can be populated by official and unofficial mods.

As for Molyneux, he raped me again for $50, as he did for Dungeon Keeper. May he be bitch-slapped in Hell and forced to forever corral and feed the brainless reviewers who gleefully gave B&W high marks before actually playing the game.

I got some enjoyment out of DK until about halfway through I realized I'd seen everything the game had to offer and knew the rest of the scenarios would just cripple me in different ways rather than unlock new stuff. At that point I was bored building the same dungeon each mission. I wish Molyneux would redo Magic Carpet with Internet play enabled. I think that was his last great game. Everything since then has been a bit disappointing. He seems more interested in game concepts than gameplay.

[xahlt]

"He seems more interested in game concepts
than gameplay" That sums it up. It's just that some people think the benefits of innovation outweigh potential game problems. Not me, but some.

[Jack]

I think he'd be quite competent at designing game demos.

[Alan Au]

I'd like to see him develop a bunch of modules that you could plug together to create games. It's the ultimate extension of the sandbox gaming concept.

Oh, and I really miss Magic Carpet.

- Alan

[Anonymous]

Well, apparently Molyneux is acting as some kind of advisor or something to Project Ego, so it's not entirely his (although I'm sure his opinion weighs in pretty heavily). Anyway, it does seem really cool, IGN had a pretty good preview of it a while back. Still not enough reason to buy an XBox, though...

[Dave Long]

The developer is an offshoot of Lionhead/Bullfrog I think. Big Blue Box or something like that. I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I think some of the team are former Molyneuxites and worked with him on other projects. Molyneux's just acting as a supervisor as you say. He had said a couple years ago he wanted to oversee more projects but have other developers working on them. This and Republic are part of that I think though Republic seems to have become independent of him since. The main guy behind Republic is a child prodigy that formerly worked at Lionhead though.

Edit: I got curious so I went to Big Blue Box's website. That's the developer of Project - Ego. There's also Intrepid Computer Entertainment. They're a satellite developer of Lionhead as well and are making a game called BC for the Xbox. So not all this stuff is really Molyneux's products, but he's got an overseeing hand. I imagine it's not all that different than what Pop Top did for Triumph Studios with Age of Wonders II.

--Dave

[Xaroc]

I never played Daggerfall. It came out in the Dark Times ...

We have to flip this thread over to the 3rd page this line just jumps out at me everytime I come to look at it. It sounds like a candidate for best opening line of something.

Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

-- Xaroc

[Qenan]

It's all in how you look at it. Those were the bright times of strategy gaming (which is what sucked me in). It was only when the RTS clickfest ended the golden age of strategy that I started playing RPGs heavily. Fortunately, they entered a golden age of their own. (Coincidence? Beats me.)

[Gordon Cameron]

Actually, I just meant "Dark Times" wrt my own personal lack of a gameable computer. Though I'd been gaming nonstop between 1979 and 1992 or so, from '92 to '99 I had nothing to play on. You see I'd hitched my wagon to Commodore for so long that I was a little shell shocked when the Amiga crashed and burned, and it wasn't till well after college that I could afford a decent PC. Oh, during college I still played the odd game of Rogue or Star Control on my defunct A500, but that was about it. I was even, for a time, under the delusion that I'd outgrown computer games altogether. Then, in '99 when I finally had a computer that could play it, my brother introduced me to Half-Life...

I still remember, in '90, seeing F-29 Retaliator playing on an IBM (probably a 286 or something) in a computer store. It was so fast and smooth compared to the Amiga version. I saw the writing on the wall, but PC's intimidated the hell out of me (I could never make head or tail out of DOS) so I stayed with Commodore as long as was humanly possible.

I guess '96 was at the tail end of an RPG dark times as well. Daggerfall and Diablo were perhaps two of the main factors in the genre's resurrection, then of course Fallout came along the following year. (I know many will protest that Diablo wasn't an RPG, but it was perceived as one by many, which perhaps matters as much.) But there were a few good RPG's in the early '90s, no? Krondor, Ultima VII, Darklands -- classics all, or so I'm told. (I've only played U7 out of those 3.)

[Desslock]

>I had nothing to play on. You see I'd hitched my wagon to Commodore for so long that I was a little shell shocked when the Amiga crashed and burned, and it wasn't till well after college that I could afford a decent PC.

Heh, I did the exact same thing. I bought an Amiga in 89, and it was a decent choice for a year. By the time 1990 came around and I couldn't play Ultima 6, I was bitter with the choice. I essentially missed 1990-1994 in gaming, until I finished school and could afford a PC. I was glad for the slow period in RPGs from 95-97, because it allowed me time to catch up on everything I'd missed, heh.

[Sean Tudor]

Wow I couldn't imagine holding out that long. I left the Commodore gaming scene after the release of the Commodore 128. Never even touched the Amiga. There were just so many good games coming out for the IBM PC platform.

[Ken Hicks]

Is this why you never mention "Betrayal at Krondor" when discussing the great RPG's? I'm curious about your opinion regarding this game; I found it highly enjoyable and thought it had just about the best story ever.

[Gordon Cameron]

Wow I couldn't imagine holding out that long. I left the Commodore gaming scene after the release of the Commodore 128. Never even touched the Amiga. There were just so many good games coming out for the IBM PC platform.

Well, my family got the Amiga in '87, and it seemed like a logical step from the C64 (which was still in its heyday around then). The A500 was just a fabulous package for the price. (Actually we were going to get an Atari ST at first, but seeing a game demo of Faery Tale Adventure in a store tipped the scale.) At that time, there was promising stuff coming out for the Amiga -- Faery Tale, the Cinemaware slate, the great-looking Psygnosis games, etc. And as a "buy it and go" computer with great graphics and sound out of the box, it looked a lot more promising to us than the PC, which at the time still seemed clunky, with DOS instead of a good GUI, and 16-color EGA graphics and lack of good sound, etc. (Weren't a lot of PC games still using the PC speaker for "music" and sound FX back in the mid '80s?) I remember gloating to my friend around '88 when he had a PC and I had an Amiga. 2 years later, when Ultima VI came out on the PC and not on the Amiga, I realized I had gloated too soon. :(

I really don't think the Amiga ever lived up to its potential as a gaming computer the way the C64 did. Most of its library seemed to consist of British shoot-em-ups with nice graphics and not much else -- although some of the seminal games of the era did come out on the Amiga (Lemmings, Populous, Civilization, Star Control, etc.).

As for the PC developments of the early-mid-90s, I was only peripherally aware of them. I drooled with the release of each new Ultima but had a sense of schadenfreude when I heard Ultima VIII (Pagan) was getting a bad reception. I remember my brother raving over Doom in '94, and I went to see it on a friend's computer, but I honestly didn't give it much thought at the time. The whole Id revolution passed me by.

[Desslock]

>Wow I couldn't imagine holding out that long. I left the Commodore gaming scene after the release of the Commodore 128. Never even touched the Amiga. There were just so many good games coming out for the IBM PC platform

Well, I didn't really have a choice, since I couldn't afford a PC-platform computer. But the Amiga had stereo sound, VGA colour graphics, and games like Populous, Battlehawks 1942 and (especially) Dungeon Master, at the time I bought it. PC's at the time were 286/ATs, with monochrome graphics or EGA and no sound. Amiga was a better gaming machine at the time, but that window was brief.

>Is this why you never mention "Betrayal at Krondor" when discussing the great RPG's? I'm curious about your opinion regarding this game; I found it highly enjoyable and thought it had just about the best story ever

I don't know if this was directed at me or Gordon, but if at me - yes. That's why. I played it a little after it was released for free, and played through the horribly inferior Betrayal in Antara (and the completely disimilar Return to Kondor), but otherwise missed out on Betrayal at Krondor.

[Anonymous]

Now, I may be wrong about this, but I suspect RPGs have a longer shelf life than other sorts of games. That is, they stop posting Top 10 numbers, but the good ones keep selling quietly and consistently. Possibly through word of mouth (or of Web). For instance, I bet Neverwinter Nights is still selling two years from now (though granted that's a special case--more construction set than game).

Peter

[Qenan]

Now, I may be wrong about this, but I suspect RPGs have a longer shelf life than other sorts of games. That is, they stop posting Top 10 numbers, but the good ones keep selling quietly and consistently. Possibly through word of mouth (or of Web). For instance, I bet Neverwinter Nights is still selling two years from now (though granted that's a special case--more construction set than game).

Peter

In the old days I think that might have been true of certain strategy games as well -- Civ 1's price seemed to hold up a long, long time.

Now, I dunno.

[Robert Sharp]

The problem now is that PC games get reduced rather quickly. So even if they "remain on the shelf" longer, which I doubt, they get knocked down in price, which usually means that the publishers don't really make any money off of those copies sold (though it does help alleviate losses, I should think). It seems like in the early 90s and before a game would maintain its price for much longer. Nowadays, within 6 months, the game is marked way down. Also, with less shelf space for PC games at many stores, the New Release section has a higher turn around, and many customers only visit the new releases. I myself, rarely check older games. I guess I figure that if I had wanted the game badly enough, I would have bought it when it was new. That's a mistake on my part, of course, because there are lots of games that I am iffy on, and would probably buy for less money. But then I don't. Now that I think about it...I am an idiot. This post is now officially depressing me.

[Brian Rucker]

Well, I'm pretty torn between Daggerfall and Morrowind in terms of 'quality'. Daggerfall's random nature, while it could seem pretty repetative to others, seemed to me more like promising infinite adventure. Detailed, nuanced, 'Go for the eyes, Boo!" adventure? Nah. But to have that kind of adventure the game has to limit severely what you can do and who you can be. It's heavily scripted. Daggerfall's sense of possibility allowed me to believe I could make any character and play them any way I wanted. There was always another corner of the world to explore (even if it wasn't often a breathtakingly original experience) and a new concept to try (spell creation, potion creation, different skills/stats, a different faction or combination of factions, etc...). I felt very strongly that the game was acting like a good GM. It was taking into account my decisions and creating a world that reacted to them regardless of what direction I went in.

Morrowind doesn't manage to do that at all. I'm am very conscious of the limited pool of missions and there is no doubt, after a while, about how the factions interact. Joining a faction and doing its missions is the same kind of tedious linear experience you get from most CRPGs but, unlike Daggerfall, you feel compelled to finish all of them because you know for an absolute fact that you'll never want to have to go through them all again with a new character to finish the 'career' path. That does reduce, hugely, the sense of freedom Daggerfall and its infinite questing resources provided. Pick and chose, ignore or follow through. Your call. You'll rarely see the same mission twice even if you play the same character in the same guild. Even if you do, names and locations will be changed. Where Morrowind does blow doors on Daggerfall is in the realization of a rich fantasy setting. Daggerfall was the most horribly generic fantasy setting I've ever encountered. But in Morrowind, Bethsoft actually put serious thought into the politics, culture and theology of the setting. Even if you don't read a single book (though I highly encourage it) you'll find architecture and views to boggle the mind as well as NPCs and creatures that make sense being where and what they are. The whole world feels alive in that sense even if the NPCs, as a whole, aren't a whole lot more thrilling than Daggerfall's cardboard cutouts.

With the exception of Darklands and Torment, and neither of them really had the degree of graphical originality in Morrowind, there's been no game of any genre that comes close in quality of setting design.

Anyhow, my two cents regarding the Daggerfall vs. Morrowind discussion.

[Gordon Cameron]

Good post. I haven't played Daggerfall but I mostly agree with what you said about MW. Now I wish I *had* played Daggerfall, and I have some inkling of why some people are so fond of it...

[Mark Asher]

Now, I may be wrong about this, but I suspect RPGs have a longer shelf life than other sorts of games. That is, they stop posting Top 10 numbers, but the good ones keep selling quietly and consistently. Possibly through word of mouth (or of Web). For instance, I bet Neverwinter Nights is still selling two years from now (though granted that's a special case--more construction set than game).

Peter

Shelf life seems to be rather short at the chains. When I go to Best Buy I don't see more than a handful of games that more than 6-9 months old. Perhaps the reduced box sizes will help this a bit.

[Jason Becker]

I would like to see publishers and devs put more money into less titles. Instead of trying to flood the market with clones everytime something remotely descent comes out.

[Qenan]

I don't understand the cloning thing. Supposedly the gaming industry works like the movies, where only 1 game in 10, say, really makes it big and justifies the investment in all 10. If that's true, why make clones? Do they often make it big? Or are they somehow less expensive to make and likely to produce some profit?

I'd also like to be a fly on the wall at Bethesda; I wonder how they will approach the next Elder Scrolls game. I hope it doesn't take another 6+ years to come out.

[Gordon Cameron]

I don't understand the cloning thing. Supposedly the gaming industry works like the movies, where only 1 game in 10, say, really makes it big and justifies the investment in all 10. If that's true, why make clones? Do they often make it big? Or are they somehow less expensive to make and likely to produce some profit?

I'd also like to be a fly on the wall at Bethesda; I wonder how they will approach the next Elder Scrolls game. I hope it doesn't take another 6+ years to come out.

I hope the ratio isn't quite that bad in movies -- at least not in movie studios that are run well. It's dangerous to play the "blockbuster game" and hope for one movie to hit really big every now and then. I remember Orion, which had several blockbusters (of which Dances With Wolves was one) and then folded after a few years anyway. Probably wiser to make films with modest budgets that can turn a solid profit with some consistency. Still, runaway budgets are always a problem and the occasional megahit (Spiderman, Titanic, etc.) can create an "all-or-nothing" gambling-style mentality in the industry. Then a Waterworld-esque fiasco comes along and everyone talks about how the blockbuster is dead -- until the next one hits big.

As for "why make clones?" maybe part of it is just that there are only so many genres, and it's HARD to think of a whole new type of game that will also be enjoyable. And then, how do you market it -- who wants to buy it? If you're making an FPS, an RTS, an RPG, etc., at least you know there is a user base with built-in interest in that genre, and you also know the basic boundaries of the design -- you can build on the work of what came before. If you try something more offbeat, you a) have to come up with a workable game formula (which is tough enough) and then b) hope it will find an audience. Of course occasionally this approach hits the ball out of the park (i.e. The Sims) but more often than not, you probably fall on your face.

I rather like the idea of incremental innovation. Kohan stretching the boundaries of the RTS, Flashpoint with the FPS, etc. You don't have to invent a new genre every time, but at least try to shake things up a little bit. "Evolutionary not revolutionary" has become a cliche, but honestly this is probably the philosophy behind a lot of the best games.