Darkstar One / Freelancer / X2, X3

[Alex Dolce]

Ok, help me out here. I'm in the mood for a fun space game, and I've played Freespace 2 (FS2Open) to death...it's still a blast, mind you, but I'm looking for something a little different this time around.

I've played through Freelancer a couple of times, and it's ok, I guess. It's kind of what I'm looking for, but it misses the mark in a lot of subtle ways.

I played both X2 and X3 and, given the proper motivation, can probably locate my CDs to reinstall either one...I found my Play CD of X3 pretty quickly, but I think I put everything else in a safe storage place. The problem is, I have too dang many safe storage places. Anyway, that's not the problem - the problem is, which should I play?

I remember really enjoying X2 in a lot of ways. I was getting a handle on the economy, though I never began building up factories or a fleet or anything. I can't remember much of the flight model, but I did like having to actually fly into space stations to dock.

X3 took the flying into the stations away, seemed to make the economy tedious, but I did love the flight model.

Anyone care to weigh in on which one I'd be better off playing, given a choice between the two?

Also, I just got done playing around with the demo for Darkstar One. It seems to hit all the marks that Freelancer missed for me, AND it allows for joystick play. While Freelancer (and Darkstar One) made good use of the mouse, and I was surprised by its effectiveness, it just doesn't feel right, playing any sort of a flight-sim without a joystick. I also dig the pulled back cockpit view in Darkstar. I'd do a digital purchase of it right now, but a quick check of gamerankings shows pretty mediocre reviews. I was wondering what you guys thought of it, if you played the full game. I trust your opinions and will hold off making a decision until I hear from you folks.

Thanks!

[awdougherty]

I've spent some time with all the games you mentioned and while I never beat Darkstar One, the time I spent with it was fun. But you might want to wait for more people to chime in on that one, a lot of people felt it got really repetitive and linear with no point to doing anything outside the main storyline.

Between X2 and X3, I always choose X3. I found it to be the most playable version in the series.

[Incendiary Lemon]

I'm not an X fan. I'm not entirely sure why you'd want to mesh a (fairly serious) economics sim with flying a space ship. For me one just gets in the way of the other.

Darkstar came out at the wrong time for me and I still haven't gone back to play it but I believe Chick liked it well enough. In general it received positive but not glowing reviews.

Kerberos is working on an Elite Clone and theres an central European indy that has one pretty far down the pipe. Theres a Russian studio developing a Freespace inspired Space Shooter (the HUD looks like a carbon of the Freespace setup). Deep Shadows (Boiling Point) is developing a title that borrows a number of bullet points from Derek Smart but it really could be a decent game.

[Thrag]

Track down a copy of Independence War II.

[JMR]

Track down a copy of Independence War II.

Does it run OK under XP? Any must-have fan modifications available for it?

[Alex Dolce]

I should point out that I enjoy doing the main storyline of any free-roaming game...in fact, it's the primary reason for playing, for me. Sure, I may spend some time roaming around, doing this or that, but the vast majority of my time spent with the game will be in the story missions. What was so aggravating for me about X3 was the poor way in which the story missions were woven into the rest of the game. The emphasis was clearly on the free-form side of things than the scripted, and you had to do much, much more of the former before you could make decent progress in the latter. I like things the other way around.

After reading some Darkstar reviews, I find that they do all seem to comment heavily on the repetitive nature of the game. I wonder, then, if that is a deal-breaker, or is it simply a minor blemish on the title?

Also, does anyone know of any good inertia-based space sims other that the I-War and X series games? I'd go spend some time with X-Wing Alliance, since I never seemed to get into it, but if I'm going to put up with WWII fighter plane physics in space, I'd rather stick with something like Freelancer or Darkstar. I'm asking in the hope that there's a small indie title out there that I'm just not aware of, about which some of you may know in much the same way as I was made aware of Mount and Blade via QT3.

[Union Carbide]

You should only play X3 if you love the Kha'ak

[Alex Dolce]

It just occurred to me that I would really, really dig a physics-accurate space flight and combat simulator for the 360, as long as it was done in Steel Battalion style - with a custom controller....huge and complex, with pedals and a couple of joysticks, a throttle or two and, of course, lots and lots of lighted switches and things that go ping!

I'd also like world peace and an end to hunger and disease, while I'm longing for the impossible....

[Thrag]

Does it run OK under XP? Any must-have fan modifications available for it?

It runs fine under XP, I still play it on and off when I feel the need for a joystick fix. I don't know of any mods, I just play the regular game. It's somewhat open ended.

[rei]

I just ponied up for Star Rangers 2 (DRM/Starforce-free!) from Stardock and EGADS, is it fun.

[Raife]

I just ponied up for Star Rangers 2 (DRM/Starforce-free!) from Stardock and EGADS, is it fun.

SPACE Rangers 2 is a blast, yeah. It's not a space sim, though.

[caesarbear]

Track down a copy of Independence War II.
I'll second this. It lacks the openness and econ of X3, which is also a good choice, but it's a good bet. Also a real oldie, Tacyon, is a classic. It's only branching missions, and not actual open, plus the inertia is only partially in the flight model, but it's a good mix of character for a space shooter.

[Raife]

Also a real oldie, Tacyon, is a classic. It's only branching missions, and not actual open, plus the inertia is only partially in the flight model, but it's a good mix of character for a space shooter.

I had a lot of fun with Tachyon, and hey, Bruce Campbell, but that final mission was such a bitch.

[Desslock]

I don't think Tachyon is in the same league as the other space sims mentioned.

I still haven't played X3 though, but plan at some point to get to it. Are they still patching it up, or is it in good shape now? I played x2 for a while, and it was a bit rough, although I appreciated its ambition. Does X3 improve much of X2? It sounds like the same game.

[Raife]

I don't think Tachyon is in the same league as the other space sims mentioned.

I'd say it's in the same league as Darkstar One, but no, it doesn't have the freedom of the X games.

[Agent X20]

Track down a copy of Independence War II.

Wot he said.

With a second vote for Space Rangers 2.

[awdougherty]

Independence War 2 is really a lot of fun. Definitely scales back the open-ended style and the economy compared to the X series, but they are definitely both there. As was already mentioned, I have no problems getting it to run under XP.

As for the combining of the hardcore econ sim with a space sim, to me it always felt like a natural combination, although I can't say why. There were times even back when I played Privateer that I wished I could go a little bigger. Sometimes I feel like the X series takes this a little too far in the other direction, it lets you go too big so that space ends up feeling pretty small. I often wish there was some way to split the difference even though I'm not even entirely clear on what I'm describing. My best X experiences always come after I've got those first few bases up and running. I stop having to babysit, so I buy a good combat fighter and just start flying, leaving the economy to sort of take care of itself. After a while, you get too big and have to go back to some type of babysitting.

[Alex Dolce]

I blame you all for the tornado that just blew through my home. Due to all the I-War 2 talk, I decided to dig out my discs and reinstall it for a new run through the game. Unfortunately, I've only been able to locate the Play disc (Disc 2) so far. Of course, I've completely ransacked various areas of the homestead in search of the first disc, hence the tornado...What fun!

[Alex Dolce]

I really wish someone could start up a site that deals almost exclusively in the digital purchase and distribution of older titles. Surely some business type could negotiate with all of the IP owners to work something out...it'd solve the "abandonware" problem (well, for us legal sticklers it would, anyway), and bring in at least some money to the games' creators/publishers/Uncle Bobs...

Of course, Gametap is getting better every day, and a subscription service is, in many ways, a lot more preferable for something like this. While searching for a digital purchase site for I-War 2, I stumbled across a Games on Demand site from Eurogamer, which has a good number of games I'd enjoy playing. It's not quite Gametap, but they have a much larger number of recent titles. Here's a link (http://eurogamer.metaboli.co.uk/) for those who might want to take a look at it.

[Robert Sharp]

I sent someone a PM about IW2, but he never answered. Can it be played with a PS2 controller (gamepad)? Or should it really be played with a joystick?

[Alex Dolce]

Success! I found my CD case for I-War 2 and, happily enough, Disc 1 was snuggled up inside. I'm off to have fun amongst the stars now...I'm such a geek!

[TomChick]

Darkstar is great, but it's no I-War. Apples and oranges.

As for Darkstar being repetitive, I was plenty engaged by the parallel threads of storyline on one hand, and upgrading your ship on the other. In fact, I'd say the ship upgrades, including your uber-weapon tree, did a great job of pulling you forward through the game.

-Tom

[scharmers]

Somebody stupid is obviously posting as TomChick above.

Darkstar One took all that was bad about Freelancer, jettisoned most of what was good, marginalized the trading side, threw in meagre handful of constantly-reused content, and sat there and just plain sucked.

I-War II is good, but it's hardcore, way over on the sim side, and there are some very vindictive missions to overcome.

The X2 and X3 are games I desperately want to love, because they sound like the ideal space sim [tm] in theory -- full on trading, space combat, and a story if you get tired of bumping around. Unfortunately, somewhere along the line, the fun part got sucked out. Playing X3 is more of a chore than anything else.

BC3000 series...you know, if Derek would jettison about a half-dozen stupid designs in the games, they would work really well. Unfortunately, his well-massaged ego refuses to let him do this, so forget the BC3K games unless you've got the patience of a saint.

Take a look at the Star Wraith series. There's a lot of love behind these admittedly-amatueristic and clunky-looking games. The designer creates separate games, one that focus on combat exclusively, the other on the more elite type.

There's Milo's Starshatter games, too. Again, we're looking at another holy grail -- dynamic campaign A.I. + space shooter -- but they're rough around the edges, sparse in content, have some nasty design lapses, and are totally unforgiving.

Tachyon was a space sim made by Novalogic. If you're familiar with Novalogic's pump-and-dump design cliches, that should tell you enough right there.

I thought Space Rangers 2 was the absolute bomb for approximately 2 weeks. Then I couldn't force myself to play it any more.

X-Wing Alliance -- Totally Games' swansong. Interesting, with the usual (and brutal) X-W/TIE puzzlebox missions. Goes to hell once Endor comes around -- the interesting "Trading Family War" storyline is unceremoniously dumped so that you can play Lando in a stupidly frustrating Death Star run.

My advice: jeez, for space sims these days? Rough call.

[Aszurom]

I'd think anybody who likes X3 for the biz sim part would be right at home in EVE-Online

[Alex Dolce]

Well, I'm happy with I-War 2 for now. I'm surprised that I didn't like it when it first came out. I'm guessing it just wasn't what I was looking for, although I don't see why I would think that, since I played and enjoyed the first one. Ah well, for whatever reason, I never did play much into the game before. In the past couple of hours, in fact, I've gone farther in the game than I did previously, and I'm really enjoying it. I can't wait to start getting a better handle on the flight model so that I can turn off flight assist and have fun with inertia.

Thanks, everybody, for forcing me to dig through my piles of accumulated crap to find both my discs....if I-War 2 hadn't been talked up as much in this thread, I would have probably just grabbed a digital purchase of Darkstar One.

I do still intend to play Darkstar, though. I enjoyed the demo enough that I think I would enjoy the full game. The repetition is the only thing that concerns me, but I'll just cross that bridge when I come to it.

Thanks again!

[TomChick]

Darkstar is very much an action game. The trading is just just one of the token ways to make money, and it's very simple. The core of the game is upgrading your ship and fighting battles, and there's not much exploration beyond tracking down those upgrade tokens, or whatever they were called. The little class graph was a pretty cool idea, but once you maxed out a bonus or two, there wasn't much to do with it.

But the combat is satisfying, it looks great, and there's a nice bit of variety in the weapons and the choices you made for your uber-weapon powers. I really enjoyed it and thought the developers did a fine job with a clean and focused design. I'm guessing the mediocre reviews were from people expecting something fleshed out like Elite, or Space Rangers in 3D.

-Tom

[Shadari]

Darkstar One is a sweet little game. Expectations for something more hard-core have hurt its reputation though. The inevitable, and fairly accurate, comparison is that Darkstar is Diablo in space. In 3D. Who couldn't love that?

[Robert Sharp]

So basically, Freespace and IW are the only two good space sim series that are still worth playing? That seems odd. Is there anything in the pipeline that might (just might...like has a chance at all) come close to these old gems?

Oh, and will someone answer my damned gamepad question. Can you play IW2 without a joystick?

[Sam Jones]

Oh, and will someone answer my damned gamepad question. Can you play IW2 without a joystick?

I haven't tried it myself, but it is apparently well suited to a gamepad. You should probably map the lateral thrusters to one analogue stick (WSAD for mouse/keys, hat switch for joystick), and the player view to the other (mouse in mouse/keys, stick in joystick).

It's also well worth installing a bunch of the official Particle Systems mods listed on this page (http://www.i-war2.com/downloads.htm), especially Custom Jafs, which is what he should have been like on release, and makes the freeform piracy elements of the game a lot smoother. Other good ones are "Location Finder" and "No Launch Sequence", and the "Walkthrough Encyclopaedia" is handy.

[Igor Muravyev]

Where's my IW3? :(

[scharmers]

Darkstar One is a sweet little game. Expectations for something more hard-core have hurt its reputation though. The inevitable, and fairly accurate, comparison is that Darkstar is Diablo in space. In 3D. Who couldn't love that?

Minus the variety of loot, minus the variety of equipment, and minus the variety of character development.

Jesus, people, turn in your gamer badges. Darkstar One was not a good game.

[TomChick]

We heard you the first time, scharmers. Shouting in bolded italics isn't going to make anyone agree with you. Besides, check this out:

Darkstar One was not a good game.

YES IT WAS!

Ha ha, you just got pwned.

-Tom

[scharmers]

Ha ha, you just got pwned.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/scharmers/1166456856-1165568035876103.jpg

[flyingelvis]

X3 blows away any of these games mentioned in this thread IMO.

It really depends on how much depth you want, because something like Darkstar One is on the opposite end of the scale of the X series.

[TomChick]

That cat is awesome! Is he yours, scharmers?

Man, I'm a sucker for a good cat picture. Okay, you win: Darkstar sucked.

-Tom

[Igor Muravyev]

X3 better than IW2, Freelancer, Elite, etc? I think not.

[awdougherty]

I would say, for my money, X3 was better than Freelancer, although I don't think Freelancer is a bad game.

[Aleck]

I would say, for my money, X3 was better than Freelancer, although I don't think Freelancer is a bad game.

Recognizing the limitations of Freelancer (no dynamic economy, limited campaign, limited replayability, among others), I still think it was a pretty cool game. As someone who *isn't* a hard core sim fan, I found it accessible and (visually) quite stunning. I enjoyed it quite a bit, and find myself thinking "I really should buy X3" just because I enjoyed Freelancer so much and would like to enjoy a somewhat similar game at some point in the future.

Also, the Freelancer Qt3 multiplayer (hosted by Tom, mostly), was also damn cool.

[awdougherty]

I definitely loved Freelancer, the arcade-y combat was done just right with the mouse (in fact, I dug the whole interface). The multiplayer server was awesome, and there was plenty out there to make exploring worth while. The shortcomings didn't bother me too much.

As I mentioned earlier, once I get those first few factories going to bring in cash, I find my X3 experience isn't just a dry spreadsheet sim. I let the economic stuff handle itself and just take off. I have no interests in building upa 20 billion dollar fleet. I just want the cash I need to have a kick ass fighter and to go exploring. But getting to that point requires a bit of a time investment through the economic tedium.

[DennyA]

Wasn't someone doing a fan remake of Privateer?

[Igor Muravyev]

Oops, I got Freelancer confused with Freespace, although I did like the combat and story in Freelancer more than X3 myself..

[Shadari]

Jesus, people, turn in your gamer badges.
Dude, I turned it in years ago... for not being a Fallout fanboi. :)

[Incendiary Lemon]

Wasn't someone doing a fan remake of Privateer?

I don't have the url bookmarked but yes. There was a thread here when they released 1.0.

[scharmers]

http://www.priv.solsector.net/

Gemini Gold

[spiffy]

Late for my favorite discussion, but most of what's to say has been said... IW2 ftw!

[moss_icon]

IW2 sucked.

[Brendan]

Has anyone had any experience with Starshatter : The Gathering Storm? I've been reading the website and have an erection that will just not go away. Please don't tell me this is the next BC 3K.

[Skipper]

You know ... having played many of these games I would second the recommendation in this thread for EVE Online. Not a bad game, very pretty to look at, much more involving due to other people actually playing with you, and fun as well. If you're open to an MMO in place of what you thought was good about some of these games, it's the best choice.

Other than that, I liked X3 more than most of the others mentioned, but that was after the 20 hour "get used to the game" learning curve. It was like living in a huge space opera. The open play style isn't for everyone though.

[spiffy]

Has anyone had any experience with Starshatter : The Gathering Storm? I've been reading the website and have an erection that will just not go away. Please don't tell me this is the next BC 3K.

I have this one sitting on my shelf. I'm dying to give it a go, but I'm just waiting around for track IR 4 to be integrated. I can't play cockpit games without free head movement anymore, or I suppose rather not if the dev tells us it's being looked into.

[Alex Dolce]

Is there some way to launch countermeasures that I am not aware of? I can't find any reference to it in my control config file, so I can only assume they launch automatically....but, if that's the case, they're pretty darn ineffective.

(This is for I-War 2, by the way.)