Why have we never seen an Alpha Centauri 2?

[ExecutionerFive]

I mean the game got insanely good reviews, sold well, etc...

So why haven't we seen a sequel? C'mon, someone dish the dirt...Brian Reynolds, we're calling you... :)

[Hawkeye Fierce]

I still like AC better than any of the Civ games.

[Tide]

aye, excellent question

I loved those little video vignettes each time I unlocked a new one. Remember the one for cloning? little baby chickens, going down a conveyor belt...

[DeathMonkey]

1. AC was Brian's baby.
2. Brian is at Big Huge Games.
3. Take Two (Firaxis) owns the rights I believe (possibly EA)
4. Each Civilization version has sold more overall than AC.

I'd be fun to work on AC2, but, frankly, it wouldn't be right without Brian.

-Scott-

[BlueDev]

Agreed. AC is the first 4x game that ever really sucked me in, and I have never loved another nearly as much.

[metta]

Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he already dreams himself your master.

We need an AC2. I miss guiding my people to becoming beings of pure thought (the coolest vistory condition ever!).

[Qenan]

I loved AC and still play it, but the endless proliferation of new units was stupid.

Still, neither Civ 3 or Civ 4 were anywhere close to as good.

[Alan Dunkin]

Brian does visit here every so often...

--- Alan

[Matt Perkins]

Someone make a deal, get some stuff done. Because damn if I don't want to play SMAC 2. It's the best 4x ever created.

[jpinard]

I could have sworn I heard some teasing hints from Soren about SMAC 2?

[Balasarius]

I didn't care too much for SMAC. It's been so many years, I don't fully recall why. I think maybe it was that the unit customization was a pita? And the technologies you researched were a bit too "far out"?

I'd give SMAC2 a serious look, though.

[Thrag]

Even though the storyline was hard for some people to get into compared to a game like Civ that everyone can relate to, SMAC is still one of the best games of the genre. I was on the external beta test team and even from the first build we were sent I was hooked. The game systems were great, and by the end the balance was there as well. Sadly about a year ago when I went to install it on my new machine I couldn't find the disks anywhere *sniff*.

[Stormbinder]

I still like AC better than any of the Civ games.

Same here.

[Qenan]

You can still buy it (http://www.bigdaddysoftware.com/alphacentauri.html)...

[Stormbinder]

Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he already dreams himself your master.



Ah, a good quote. :) That brings back memeries, thanks Metta.

The game had style. Tons of it.

I also remember that susprisingly good book that could be downloaded from Firaxes site after AC was released, that described the background history of the "Unity" spaceship and various factions fighting to control it before it broke apart.

[sluggo]

[AC] sold well
Did it? Anyone know what kind of numbers it put up?

[Rob_Merritt]

I forget, is this one of those games that didn't play nice on XP?

[AndrewM]

Because there is no God, and we live in a cruel and unjust universe?

[AndrewM]

I forget, is this one of those games that didn't play nice on XP?

I think it runs fine on XP. It pops up some kind of message box about it, and you have to click okay, and on my system it is invisible, but otherwise, it is fine.

[JMR]

I could have sworn I heard some teasing hints from Soren about SMAC 2?

I vaguely recall reading a blurb from Sid where he mentioned about revisiting SMAC with the Civ4 engine.

BTW, since I never got into SMAC, how does the end game compare with CivIV's endgame?

[Ed Solomon]

I still like AC better than any of the Civ games.
Me too.

[André Costa]

Because there is no God, and we live in a cruel and unjust universe?

Of course there is a God, just ask the Cylons!


Hmm, a new SMAC on the Civ4 engine would be nice.

[Deadron]

I was very stoked for AC, spent months reading the boards ahead of time, etc.

And when it came out I really enjoyed the science fiction feel and the distinct characters/factions. Also, it had AI options not found any Civ game even after (maybe Civ 4 has some of them, I haven't played enough to be sure) -- like a faction giving you units secretly so you could go to war with someone without them being publically implicated. The sound was interesting.

But, damn, those graphics...each game devolved into a swirling mass of pixels where I was playing "find the pixel" games to figure out what was my unit vs. an enemy unit vs. landscape. It just sucked the fun out.

And the unit building was boring and uninteresting to me. For years I thought that must be because I just wasn't hardcore enough...but I didn't mind the unit building in GalCiv 2 at all, so now I blame the implementation.

That said, my issues are exactly the kinds of things that could be addressed in a sequel, so I'd be all for it.

Also, I didn't have the problem with "impenetrable techs" that some complained about.

[Matt Perkins]

Everything about SMAC rocked.

The tech was customizable like crazy. So much fun building your own units, maker newer versions, etc.

The diplomacy was pretty damn good with the AI.

The live planet was a damn cool thing.

The style of the game. OMG. Each new tech brought about a bit more joy.

And the end game had so many good options...


They did so many things right in SMAC I find myself missing them in every other 4x game I play.


Heck, I think I'll go reinstall tonight. :)

[deepruntramp]

Oh man I love(d) SMAC. Some of the best writing and voicework in computer gaming, right there... along with one of the strongest TBS games in history, of course.

[Old Man Gravy]

Also, I didn't have the problem with "impenetrable techs" that some complained about.

Totally agree. I know there's room for everyone in gaming, and diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks and all that, but for the life of me I cannot fathom how someone could be all meh about a tech tree with Nanometallurgy, Bioengineering, Singularity, Orbital Space Flight, and Mind/Machine Interface but then get a huge boner over a tech tree with Fire, Horseback Riding, Mapmaking, The Wheel, Adding Chocolate To Milk To Discover Chocolate Milk, and Democracy on it. I'M ALL LIKE "HAY YOU GUYS I DON'T WANT TO PALAYING HISTORY CLASS:TEHGAME! NO THANKS!!!"

[Sarkus]

Totally agree. I know there's room for everyone in gaming, and diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks and all that, but for the life of me I cannot fathom how someone could be all meh about a tech tree with Nanometallurgy, Bioengineering, Singularity, Orbital Space Flight, and Mind/Machine Interface but then get a huge boner over a tech tree with Fire, Horseback Riding, Mapmaking, The Wheel, Adding Chocolate To Milk To Discover Chocolate Milk, and Democracy on it. I'M ALL LIKE "HAY YOU GUYS IM NOT PALAYING HISTORY CLASS THE GAME NO THANKS!!!"

Years ago when I was in college I took a creative writing class. Twice we had to submit short stories that the whole class read and discussed. A few of us submitted science fiction stories; mine involved time travel. Listening to the class discussion I realized something for the first time that applies here: a significant percentage of the population doesn't "get" scifi at all. They can't grasp the concept of the future and where technology might go. They can't suspend their disbelief because it seems to them like a joke.

I think that's why the Civ series did well - a lot of people "get" history. SMAC was too scifi for many of those fans.

[Old Man Gravy]

That's a good point. But the whole thing for me is that it's not just people (in general) - it's gamers. And aren't gamers all Just Like Me?

I guess grognards tend to be history buffs, too, though.

[Hugin]

I loved SMAC, and the lack of a modern sequel is one of my major gaming sadnesses (along with the lack of a real successor to MOO2).

[EvilIdler]

SMAC has been permanently installed on my Linux workstation (OK, so it's not
100% work :), and I've paid for the Windows version twice. Once for game and
expansion separately, then a really nice-priced combination package.
(The different platforms aren't network-compatible :/ )

If they removed the dreadful unit upgrading and used an engine like Civ4 has,
they'd have a perfect sequel already. What I'm wondering is if they'd pick up
the story where SMAC ends, or just expand the core gameplay and leave ascension the highest end-goal still.

[Thrag]

I loved SMAC, and the lack of a modern sequel is one of my major gaming sadnesses (along with the lack of a real successor to MOO2).

You seem to have accidentally typed a "2" up there ;)

[Hugin]

You seem to have accidentally typed a "2" up there ;)

I liked MOO2 better than MOO. And as far as I'm concerned MOO3 doesn't exist. :)

[Miramon]

Agreed. Despite the truly awful AI (endemic to the entire Civ series really), SMAC was loads of fun, and superior to all the Civ games as far as I'm concerned.

Much of the fun was due to elements which relate in my mind to the fun-ness of MOO and MOO2, and run counter to the "gameplay-beats-all" school. I think SMAC was fun in large part due to fripperies such as the wonder videos and the over-the-top faction leaders and stuff like that. In theory these add nothing to gameplay, but in practice without this stuff the game would be little more than a dull square-based TBS with moronic computer opponents.

What makes this stuff memorable is that the fluff wasn't just tacked on; I think it was well thought out and carefully conceived, and you could perceive, indirectly, the enthusiasm of the people who put it all together. This secondary content had a wonderful style, and a thematic wholeness or whatever that sold the game to me. I still remember that little top-gun video clip, the whirling dervishes, the silly psychic soldier guy, the way I could trust the Gaeans, but only so far, and the wonderful screams of my captured foes with considerable affection -- and I guess it's been 5 years since I last played.

I don't know if this kind of secondary game decoration and fluff as a category is ever formally studied, but I think it's a very important factor in how a game is perceived.

[Thrag]

I liked MOO2 better than MOO. And as far as I'm concerned MOO3 doesn't exist. :)

I actually like them both, though I prefer the more streamlined approach that MOO took. MOO2 in some ways was more a different game than a successor.

And what doesn't exist? I can't see part of that sentence for some reason ;)

[Robert Sharp]

I'm 90% sure I installed the expansion in Windows XP too, so it all runs. I never played it much but I could see why people loved it. The tech trees just confused me too much and for whatever reason I didn't feel like learning them.

[Kunikos]

Call it "Sid Meiers' Aliens!" and get crackin'.

[peterb]

I actually like them both, though I prefer the more streamlined approach that MOO took. MOO2 in some ways was more a different game than a successor.

And what doesn't exist? I can't see part of that sentence for some reason ;)

MOO2 was really "Master of Space Magic".

The best sequel to MOO is Spaceward Ho!, which is amusing since it's also the best prequel to MOO.

[Thrag]

The best sequel to MOO is Spaceward Ho!, which is amusing since it's also the best prequel to MOO.

I never did play Spaceward Ho! Wasn't it multiplayer only or something like that?

[Jab2565]

I picked up SMAC for the first time in one of those EA bundle paks, I really loved the style of the game, much more then in Civ. I agree about the video movies and quotes from the tech. One of my favorites was the video that played when you destroyed another faction. On the subject of buying it, does anyone know where I could grab the expansion for it cheap?

edit: Just checked amazon. The original is less then 10$. The expansion goes for over $100 now. Now I remember why I never picked it up.

[JMR]

I've seen SMAC in a shovelware bundle at Fry's but I don't think Alien Crossfire was apart of the package. It's almost impossible to find in stores, even in a PC friendly place like Fry's - try Ebay or the warez route.

[Deadron]

On the subject of buying it, does anyone know where I could grab the expansion for it cheap?

At least a couple of years ago, the secret for the expansion was to buy it in a "laptop bundle" that was being sold with several games...it had SMAC and the expansion, and the whole bundle cost $20 retail, at a time when the expansion alone was already going for big bucks on eBay.

[RepoMan]

SMAC *spooge*

Need I really say more? Not in THIS thread.

[DennyA]

A couple of years ago we tried to get a SMAC PBEM game going. It fell apart after a couple of months due to various people traveling, etc.

But if anyone wants to try again, I'm game. :)

[TurinTuramba]

On the subject of buying it, does anyone know where I could grab the expansion for it cheap?


Last time a discussion about smac came up someone pointed people who wanted to have the expansion to this very nice link:

http://www.the-underdogs.info/game.php?name=Sid+Meier%27s+Alien+Crossfire

It still is a very nice link!

[foogla]

The Social Engineering table was awesome, making each faction unique even more awesomer.

[SqueakyFoo]

I'm 90% sure I installed the expansion in Windows XP too, so it all runs. I never played it much but I could see why people loved it. The tech trees just confused me too much and for whatever reason I didn't feel like learning them. This is the same for me. In civ, researching the Wheel or Democracy, I automatically know what it does; I have a general idea of the advancements it will bring, and whatnot. You see the name of the tech and you pretty much know what the tech is about. In SMAC, what the fuck is a quantum singularity doohicky thingamabob? There's no connection in reality to be made, and so creates a layer of obfuscation that is hard for most people (myself included) to penetrate.

[zx81-Amd64]

Once we get over our destructive infatuation with 'eye candy', TBS games of the quality of SMAC will make a comeback.

It's still probably the only 'serious' sci-fi themed game out there - the techs, especially in light of scientific discoveries since the game was made, were very well researched and thought out. It could be the future of mankind in RL?

I never had a problem with the look of it(you can mod it to make it less red if you want), but the pace of change combined with the custom build units just felt a little out of synch for me - that is my one small issue with the game. But overall it's still one of the all time greats.

Say if BHG did get to do a sequel, would it become just 'another' RTS? Or would they have the nerve to do it as it should be done?

[Kalle]

This is the same for me. In civ, researching the Wheel or Democracy, I automatically know what it does; I have a general idea of the advancements it will bring, and whatnot. You see the name of the tech and you pretty much know what the tech is about. In SMAC, what the fuck is a quantum singularity doohicky thingamabob? There's no connection in reality to be made, and so creates a layer of obfuscation that is hard for most people (myself included) to penetrate.

Most people suck. I mean it. If you want to know what a tech does, look it up. It's right there in the game. You want to know what that crazy sci-fi tech will lead to? Click the handy link provided. Would you also have liked for Firaxis to provide you with an Alpha Centauri for Dummies book?

Alpha Centauri is probably the best science fiction game ever created. It takes it's setting seriously, and it incorporates it into the game in an amazing fashion. The techs are probably the part of the game that singlehandedly provides most background exposition without ever forcing it upon you. If you don't care what Prokhor Zakharov has to say about Quantum Singularity doohickies you can just focus on the pure game mechanics. I can respect that people have a hard time enjoying science fiction, but to claim that Alpha Centauri's abstractions of reality into gameplay are somehow harder to understand (you can't research Pottery in Civ2 before you've researched the Wheel, there were apparantly no spies before communisnm, etc) is just inane.

[RichardC]

I don't know, but I've been told
Deidre's got a network node
Likes to press the on/off switch
Dig that crazy Gaian witch...

Don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.

[AndrewM]

The associations could be a little strained sometimes in AC, but with a good enough Civilopedia (such as in Civ 4) it shouldn't be a problem in terms of figuring out what to do. It would be nice if the associations were always natural, but as you point out, even in Civ it gets a little gamey sometimes.

[Hugin]

I prefer the sci-fi tech tree/historical progression in SMAC, because unlike in Civ, is doesn't constantly contradict or rub up against my perceptions of "real world" technological development or historical events.

[Matt Perkins]

I prefer the sci-fi tech tree/historical progression in SMAC, because unlike in Civ, is doesn't constantly contradict or rub up against my perceptions of "real world" technological development or historical events.
Not only that, but it all made sense to me as a long time sci fi fan. I think that's one of the best parts of the game, the tech tree. A bajillion times better than Civ's very boring and mundane tech tree.

I mean, did anyone playing X-Com or Galactic Civilizations wish the tech trees were dumbed down or less sci fi? I know I damn well didn't.

[Ed Solomon]

A couple of years ago we tried to get a SMAC PBEM game going. It fell apart after a couple of months due to various people traveling, etc.

But if anyone wants to try again, I'm game. :)
Me, me, me.

[Tide]

nerve stapling FTW

[quatoria]

I would kill for a sequel to SMAC. Seriously, Brian. I'm not kidding. Tell me who you want offed.

[Matt Perkins]

I would kill for a sequel to SMAC. Seriously, Brian. I'm not kidding. Tell me who you want offed.
I'll help.

[Matt Perkins]

A couple of years ago we tried to get a SMAC PBEM game going. It fell apart after a couple of months due to various people traveling, etc.

But if anyone wants to try again, I'm game. :)
I'm very much in... is there some program setup for this? I'd be happy to host it too.

[Kalle]

oooh, a qt3 SMAC PBEM game. I'm interested, but I don't think I can make the commitment. (also, I suck at playing the game competitatively).

I am, however, taking bets on how long it will take before the game is inevitably abandoned because one guy lost interest and now everyone else is screwed.

[Brian Reynolds]

I would kill for a sequel to SMAC. Seriously, Brian. I'm not kidding. Tell me who you want offed.

Ha ha! Alpha Centauri has I suspect been kind of trapped in "Triple IP Voodoo Purgatory". I think the IP itself probably still belongs to Electronic Arts; the right-to-develop probably still belongs to Firaxis where most of the artists still work plus the current "Civ team" and Civ4 engine; and substantially all of the original designers/programmers/writers who created the "world" now work at Big Huge. So it would be kind of like trying to put the Beatles back together (though at least no one's dead), and THEN you could deal with the question of whether there'd be a big enough market for it to make it worthwhile.

I suppose if the powers-that-be perceived enough of a market for it, then Firaxis (i.e. Take Two) and EA could unwind the IP rights and do some kind of follow-on with the Civ4 engine. My guess is don't hold your breath. It would be interesting to see though... if they go for it my advice to them is hire a designer/writer with a philosophy degree!

Brian

p.s. Thanks for reminding me about the Network Node song... I really should go dig up the WAV files from that and make myself some Windows theme sounds or something.

[RichardC]

Hurrah! (Applies big slobbery kisses)

[Troy S Goodfellow]

I may be up for SMAC PBEM. I usually pretty good about my turns.

Troy

[Vic Davis]

and THEN you could deal with the question of whether there'd be a big enough market for it to make it worthwhile.

Brian,

I'm really curious as to what you think that market is? 100k units, 500k, a Meg+? Do the super corps think Civ IV sucks up all the demand for turn based strategy? Why hasn't anybody tried to compete or even set their sights on achieving half of Civ IV's sales with a smaller team. Surely you don't always have to swing for the fences with every product?

[Morkilus]

This is the best forum that has ever existed.

[Lee Johnson]

A couple of years ago we tried to get a SMAC PBEM game going. It fell apart after a couple of months due to various people traveling, etc.

But if anyone wants to try again, I'm game. :)Prior to that game, Denny, there was a very long-running PBEM SMAC game going with several Qt3 regulars. In the end, we discovered that SMAC PBEM has a fairly showstopping bug that makes it difficult or impossible to finish games once people start being eliminated. It took *well* over a year to make this discovery, though. :P

[SorenJohnson]

Of course there is a God, just ask the Cylons!


Hmm, a new SMAC on the Civ4 engine would be nice.

a couple mod teams have tried:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=166767
http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=24

but, yeah, EA owns the rights to Alpha Centauri.

[Thrag]

On the subject of awesome early Firaxis games that we need modern renditions of I just want to mention Gettysburg. In my opinion it remains the absolute finest wargames ever. While it may not be worthy for the grognards, I've never played a game that captures the ebb and flow of combat in the age of rifles so well. I believe SMG and Myth came out in the same year, making that year one of sheer tactical nirvana. I've been SMG on gametap a bit recently and though it's UI doesn't stand the test too well the gameplay is still fantastic.

Now, back to our regular unadulterated SMAC lovin'

[Matt Perkins]

Prior to that game, Denny, there was a very long-running PBEM SMAC game going with several Qt3 regulars. In the end, we discovered that SMAC PBEM has a fairly showstopping bug that makes it difficult or impossible to finish games once people start being eliminated. It took *well* over a year to make this discovery, though. :P
Them umm... I'm out. :P


Really though, all turn based games need to have a way, be it email or otherwise, to play it multiplayer. ALL OF THEM. There is no reason not to do it. And they all need to have timers and stale turns ala Dominions.

Geek Law?

[SorenJohnson]

Them umm... I'm out. :P


Really though, all turn based games need to have a way, be it email or otherwise, to play it multiplayer. ALL OF THEM. There is no reason not to do it. And they all need to have timers and stale turns ala Dominions.

Geek Law?


what's a stale turn?

[Thrag]

Really though, all turn based games need to have a way, be it email or otherwise, to play it multiplayer. ALL OF THEM. There is no reason not to do it. And they all need to have timers and stale turns ala Dominions.

Geek Law?

ROTFL

Geek Law!

[Deadron]

I love the *idea* of SMAC PBEM games, and on release I got involved with around seven of them. It was a fantastic start, with more role-playing than I've ever seen going on and huge enthusiasm.

And every single one of those games ground to a halt shortly into the process. It was a lot of hassle to get the game file out of the email and into the right location and then to mail it out to the next person, plus there was no facility for dealing with someone dropping out of the game and no tracking of where the game currently was...you'd sit around not sure if the game was progressing or not.

This made me pine for a real PBEM engine with a game, that allowed mixing online play and PBEM and provided facilities for replacing a player with AI (even temporarily while they were on vacation), etc. Civ4 has a multiplayer server that does some of this, as I recall, though I haven't gotten a chance to try it.

[Matt Perkins]

what's a stale turn?
In Dominions if you don't take your turn within the time limit, you just get a stale turn. Nothing happens to you or yours (unless an event or a player does something to you), but you can play your next turn just fine.

It's a work around for people not taking their turns, but I imagine it requires a server setup like Dominions because something has to push the turns forward.

[zx81-Amd64]

................. EA owns the rights to Alpha Centauri.
Ok...so can we live with 'The Sims 3: return to Alpha Centauri' ?!(sobs!)

Why have computer games become so f**ked up?

I agree with Brian Reynolds that you'd have to have people with the right knowledge in the design process - too make believe and you'd lose an imprtant part of the charm.

[SorenJohnson]

In Dominions if you don't take your turn within the time limit, you just get a stale turn. Nothing happens to you or yours (unless an event or a player does something to you), but you can play your next turn just fine.

It's a work around for people not taking their turns, but I imagine it requires a server setup like Dominions because something has to push the turns forward.

I see... the PitBoss works like this with a turn timer. I'd just never heard the term.

[Matt Perkins]

I see... the PitBoss works like this with a turn timer. I'd just never heard the term. I've never played PitBoss... Is it good? (edit: Just looked it up... I'd think I'll have to ask around and see if anyone is using it here. I'd love to play some Civ4 MP).


As for stale turns. *shrugs* it's a good stop gap, but I'd rather be able to set some parameters and have some things done if you know you're going to have be gone.

Dominions Example: I have to be gone a week and I'll miss three turns in my game. So I setup my helper AI to not expand (lets say it's not early game and random expansion might be bad), to build up as much army as they can each turn, to keep my mercs hired with a certain percentage range (i.e. - I only want to spend up to 120% of what they worth, if someone outbids that, I lose them) and to keep researching my current project until it hits level 4, then go to another.

Maybe even to take the projected money over the next three turns and disperse it before hand. Or have setup of troop movement, assuming no attacks, etc.

General rules of engagement would be good too. If attacked, defend A) Vigorously, B) yes, not at the cost of previous plans, C) just turtle.


These are just ideas off the top of my head... :)

[Kunikos]

Ha ha! Alpha Centauri has I suspect been kind of trapped in "Triple IP Voodoo Purgatory". I think the IP itself probably still belongs to Electronic Arts; the right-to-develop probably still belongs to Firaxis where most of the artists still work plus the current "Civ team" and Civ4 engine; and substantially all of the original designers/programmers/writers who created the "world" now work at Big Huge. So it would be kind of like trying to put the Beatles back together (though at least no one's dead), and THEN you could deal with the question of whether there'd be a big enough market for it to make it worthwhile.

I suppose if the powers-that-be perceived enough of a market for it, then Firaxis (i.e. Take Two) and EA could unwind the IP rights and do some kind of follow-on with the Civ4 engine. My guess is don't hold your breath. It would be interesting to see though... if they go for it my advice to them is hire a designer/writer with a philosophy degree!


Brian,

What's wrong with making an analogue to the game? Nobody seems to be confused with the idea that Supreme Commander is the next game for the Total Annihilation series, even though it isn't the same IP. If you called the game something else and altered enough of the original game such that it doesn't fit into the original IP any longer (ie Galatic Civilizations is a similar game to MOO but clearly isn't the same game) and perhaps advances the gameplay up to and past what modern strategy games offer (such as Civ 4), then I don't think many people would mind. By the same token, we might not mind having one game from Brian Reynolds and one from Sid Meiers and company. "Civilization 4: The Final Frontier" expansion vs Big Huge's "Galactic Colonization" (or whatever you feel sounds cool).

-- Kunikos

p.s. I still think Sid Meier's Aliens! sounds like a cool title for a game. ;)

[Matt Perkins]

Seconded!

[Kalle]

p.s. I still think Sid Meier's Aliens! sounds like a cool title for a game. ;)

Hey, this time around lets give Brian the box cover credit, ok?

I don't see any major problems with the concept (besides the tedious and unimportant one of securing funding) since Alpha Centauri's story really is so self contained, though following up on the awesome story is setting a high bar. It's some of the best sci fi I've ever read, well on par with most novels out there.

[SorenJohnson]

I've never played PitBoss... Is it good? (edit: Just looked it up... I'd think I'll have to ask around and see if anyone is using it here. I'd love to play some Civ4 MP).


As for stale turns. *shrugs* it's a good stop gap, but I'd rather be able to set some parameters and have some things done if you know you're going to have be gone.

Dominions Example: I have to be gone a week and I'll miss three turns in my game. So I setup my helper AI to not expand (lets say it's not early game and random expansion might be bad), to build up as much army as they can each turn, to keep my mercs hired with a certain percentage range (i.e. - I only want to spend up to 120% of what they worth, if someone outbids that, I lose them) and to keep researching my current project until it hits level 4, then go to another.

Maybe even to take the projected money over the next three turns and disperse it before hand. Or have setup of troop movement, assuming no attacks, etc.

General rules of engagement would be good too. If attacked, defend A) Vigorously, B) yes, not at the cost of previous plans, C) just turtle.


These are just ideas off the top of my head... :)


if you are interested in the PitBoss (which basically is our stab at "moderated" PBEM), you should check out this site:
http://www.civstats.com/allgames.php

A guy put together a little utility to help people track their active PitBoss games from the Web. It's pretty cool...

[Jason McCullough]

This is the same for me. In civ, researching the Wheel or Democracy, I automatically know what it does; I have a general idea of the advancements it will bring, and whatnot. You see the name of the tech and you pretty much know what the tech is about. In SMAC, what the fuck is a quantum singularity doohicky thingamabob? There's no connection in reality to be made, and so creates a layer of obfuscation that is hard for most people (myself included) to penetrate.

In other words, it's like learning to play Civilization I for the first time? Come on, like you knew pottery gives you granarys and helps with growth and food beforehand.

Alpha Centauri is probably the best science fiction game ever created.

Hands down. The writing was unbelievably good, considering it was a bunch of disconnected little bits scattered around a turn-based game, of all things.

[Brian Reynolds]

...though following up on the awesome story is setting a high bar. It's some of the best sci fi I've ever read, well on par with most novels out there.

Hey, thanks. But I think you may have put your finger on another good reason I for one haven't gone back to that kind of topic -- I certainly "gave it my all" when creating that setting, and so far I haven't really felt the creative need to return to something similar. Or you could say AC cleaned me pretty well out of "pithy pearls of subversive wisdom", at least for the nonce. :-)

On an entirely tangential note, because I'm a sci-fi fanboy too, I keep wondering if Battlestar Galactica will run out of good material soon. Though I'm starting to worry they already did this season.

Brian

[Drastic]

I will cheerfully add my voice to those calling for "Brian Reynold's Tau Ceti 1: Absolutely Not an IP Infringement of SMAC." I'm also firmly in the sci-fi geek camp that loved the tech tree to bits.

[Kunikos]

Hey, this time around lets give Brian the box cover credit, ok?

I thought I was obviously suggesting an alternative title for the Firaxis take on the game. :)

[Matt Perkins]

if you are interested in the PitBoss (which basically is our stab at "moderated" PBEM), you should check out this site:
http://www.civstats.com/allgames.php

A guy put together a little utility to help people track their active PitBoss games from the Web. It's pretty cool...
Very cool.

Ok, who wants to play?

[Deadron]

I'm willing...I haven't played enough Civ4 to be any kind of expert, but then again with the pace of the PBEM games it should be easy enough to come up to speed in the meantime.

[Thrag]

Hey, thanks. But I think you may have put your finger on another good reason I for one haven't gone back to that kind of topic -- I certainly "gave it my all" when creating that setting, and so far I haven't really felt the creative need to return to something similar. Or you could say AC cleaned me pretty well out of "pithy pearls of subversive wisdom", at least for the nonce. :-)


Though the setting was one of the things that made AC great, the game mechanics are what kept me playing. For most games that I would test I would barely play after the beta was over. Games where the setting is the only real draw you play once or twice. SMAC I played for months and months after the beta and kept coming back to for an occasional game a few years after because it was the best TBS 4x implementation. The things that made it great can be applied to other settings. I'd guess that many on this thread are more wanting for another game with SMAC's mechanics than a literal sequel (not to say that wouldn't be awesome).


On an entirely tangential note, because I'm a sci-fi fanboy too, I keep wondering if Battlestar Galactica will run out of good material soon. Though I'm starting to worry they already did this season.

My wife keeps saying that every few episodes. I'm determined to remain pleasantly surprised.

[Thrag]

Dare I say it?

A game with SMAC like mechanics and MOM setting.

[Hanacker]

In other words, it's like learning to play Civilization I for the first time? Come on, like you knew pottery gives you granarys and helps with growth and food beforehand.

No, but it was easier to remember on your second or third time through than AC's techs. I didn't really have a problem with the AC techs but I also didn't spend much time thinking about the implications of monopole magnets or what a Children's Creche were, outside of their numerical ingame effects.

[Flowers]

On an entirely tangential note, because I'm a sci-fi fanboy too, I keep wondering if Battlestar Galactica will run out of good material soon. Though I'm starting to worry they already did this season.

Brian

You'll know for sure when you see Cylon Oliver.

[McBain]

Alpha Centauri + Civ IV engine = wet dream.

[EvilIdler]

Ok, who wants to play?
Start a thread, will ya? Then point us to it :)

[EvilIdler]

Hey, this time around lets give Brian the box cover credit, ok?

Brian Reynolds' Aliens! (BRA!)

Nah, might have to rethink that title :)

[Alan Dunkin]

Alpha Centauri + Civ IV engine = wet dream.

Sounds like something totally plausible for a mod.

--- Alan

[Qenan]

Master of Centauri?

[Deadron]

I'm willing...I haven't played enough Civ4 to be any kind of expert, but then again with the pace of the PBEM games it should be easy enough to come up to speed in the meantime.

I just remembered one of the things I like from the PBEM games I've tried -- the slower pace actually forces me to learn the mechanics of a game like Civ more than I would otherwise. Playing solo, I'm more likely to just arbitrarily pick a technology path or whatever and see what happens, but PBEM causes me to do more research and carefully consider each decision.

[EvilIdler]

Sounds like something totally plausible for a mod.

Isn't there a mod team working on something like that?

[DennyA]

Rise of Alien Nations

(Hey, what's the show-stopping bug with SMAC PBEM? And is it 100% unavoidable?)

[Kunikos]

Rise of Alien Nations

Do they drink rotten milk and get CRUNK!? (Also, they melt in water like the wicked witch of the west?)

[André Costa]

Isn't there a mod team working on something like that?

a couple mod teams have tried:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=166767
http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=24

but, yeah, EA owns the rights to Alpha Centauri.

12345!!

[Mind Elemental]

I can testify to the problems of PBEM; I set up a Civ4 game once only to have it die after individuals held up the whole game. :(

That said, I agree with Deadron - normally I'm an only average player for the same reason as him, but in long online TBSses, I play 'properly', and do much better.

Ok, who wants to play?


*raises his hand, looks around* ;)

[Brian Reynolds]

You'll know for sure when you see Cylon Oliver.

Uh oh... are we talking "peaking out" here or major shark-jumpage?

Brian

[Wobbo]

SMAC/SMAX is probably the best videogame I've ever played in my life, I have hundreds of hours of playtime invested, thousands of savegames, and its installed on every computer i've ever owned.

If I heard news of an AC2 I would cream myself. Hard.

Sounds like something totally plausible for a mod.

--- Alan
Its being worked on here, they actually have alphas for download

http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=24

And no, EA have done nothing about it.

[Rob_Merritt]

Brian Reynolds' Aliens! (BRA!)

Nah, might have to rethink that title :)

I find that title uplifting and supportive ;)

Rise of Alien Nations

Love it!

[AndrewM]

It would clearly be Rise of Nations: Rise of Aliens.

[Rob_Merritt]

How about Beta Delphinus?

[Robert Sharp]

I just wish BHG would make ANY kind of TBS game. I love the ideas of the Rise games, but I'm just not a huge fan of RTS. Those same ideas put into a TBS game would rock my world. Of course, the sales might not be as great, so I understand why they won't do it, most likely.

Just put Paul (Stephanouk) and me on the project, and we'll make it work. We were once groomsmen together, and the ushering we did was phenomenal. Just imagine the kind of game we could make ;).

[Qenan]

I keep hoping for a resurgence of TBS games, but so far the market is not cooperating.

[Met_K]

I would pay for Alpha Centauri 2.

[zx81-Amd64]

I keep hoping for a resurgence of TBS games, but so far the market is not cooperating.
Yeah it was a pretty sad day for me when i had to buy a GBA to enjoy some TBS i hadn't played. Still it's quite cool that a few japanese devs think it worth doing, and doing pretty well(Advance Wars,Fire Emblem etc). I've got no idea what is wrong with european/usa devs over this, other than the conviction they can't make money on TBS?

[marxeil]

http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=24

And no, EA have done nothing about it.
If it's ever done I might get Civ4.

[Brendan]

Does anybody else still take the SMAC manual out of it's box and read it on the bog on occasion? It is absolutely fascinating reading for those with even the slimmest interest in colonisation and planetology.

The game itself was sublime, somehow everything just gelled together perfectly. (Iffy graphics and all.)

In a way I'm not interested in a sequel. SMAC strikes as a kind of once-in-a-lifetime anomaly. The voice-overs and philosophy of it can't be something you just pull out of your head in the course of a year or two's design meetings, they are ideas that seem incubated over a lifetime.

[Qenan]

Actually, I'd just love to see another TBS from Brian Reynolds. He was the force behind Colonization too, wasn't he? I wouldn't mind seeing an updated version of that.

Civ sells well, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of competition in the 4X space.

[Enidigm]

I'd like them to just port Alpha Centauri to the Civ 4 engine.

And... maybe rebalance a few techs and things.

[ExecutionerFive]

Can anyone verify whether the Planetary Pack will run on Windows Vista?

[TomChick]

I just wish BHG would frickin' announce what they're working on already!

-Tom

[Matthew Gallant]

I just wish BHG would frickin' announce what they're working on already!
Rise of Impatience!

[Thrag]

Rise of Impatience!

It's been a good day for puns here on QT3. That made me laugh out loud. Not only that, when the wife asked what I was laughing at and I explained it to her expecting the usual look of bewilderment combined with pity she actually laughed too. Earlier today the "Haterade" pun in one of the crackdown threads made me giggle uncontrollably for several minutes despite knowing in my heart it was a really terrible pun.

[Lum]

I broke out my old SMAC/X CDs and gave them a runthrough this weekend based largely on this thread. Actually ages pretty well, especially when you use the ini file command ("Direct3D = 0" I think) to scale the game up to today's mongo video resolutions. The Hive busted my tail. Damn you, Yang! I dropped a planet buster on him, but it didn't help, and irked my only ally, too. :P

I think something most people miss is the personality each faction has. When Deirdre beats you, you feel worse than when Yang beats you. I mean, come on. You got owned by a tree-hugger.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

I think something most people miss is the personality each faction has. When Deirdre beats you, you feel worse than when Yang beats you. I mean, come on. You got owned by a tree-hugger.

Reynolds and co. did an amazing job getting the personalities just right for that game. Civ IV succeeds in a similar way in some instances, but with fewer factions to manage and really stark ideological differences, SMAC's characters come to life and do most of the work in sustaining my interest through all the sci-fi gobbledygook and retina-searing planet surface.

Always kill Yang first.

Troy

[lesslucid]

It would clearly be Rise of Nations: Rise of Aliens.

Since the first game has one title and the second one has two, the third one really ought to have three.

Rise of Nations: Rise of Legends: Rise of the Legend of Alien Nations.

[RichardC]

Reynolds and co. did an amazing job getting the personalities just right for that game. Civ IV succeeds in a similar way in some instances, but with fewer factions to manage and really stark ideological differences, SMAC's characters come to life and do most of the work in sustaining my interest through all the sci-fi gobbledygook and retina-searing planet surface.

That was always my favourite part of it. Even when you knew how the scripts worked, it felt like you had these different people competing, and different ideas about how the new world should be developing. There was a satisfaction in teaming up or launching a precise strike I've never had from any of the Civ games, and all the little descriptive touches really made the experience even when you'd already read them.

Screw Yang. Sister Miriam goes first.

[Jason McCullough]

It's a shame they didn't make Miriam a more powerful faction, she was even more annoying than Yang. I always bribed her just to see the hilarious friendly comments about righteousness.

[RichardC]

Sister "Will Always Betray Player" was bad enough as she was. Yang never bugged me that much. He usually sat in his little shell-covered cities until I owned the rest of the planet, then at the bottom of giant Planet Buster fallout zones when there was nobody left to speak.

[Flowers]

From this discussion, it seems like everyone here always picked The University for the technological edge. In light of this, I will not waste the time outlining the fastest path to the early overpowering weapon, since you already know.

I usually take the Spartans out first.

[zx81-Amd64]

I mostly pick Gaia's stepdaughters - trying to do my bit to save the planet etc. She wasn't loved by most of the factions - shame really when all i was trying to do was get a bit of tree(well red fungi) hugging going :)

[AndrewM]

My favorite cheap strategy was to turn up the level of mindworm activity, then play Gaia's Stepdaughters. Quickly you can dominate the planet with your hordes of Demon Boils. I also enjoyed the progression of improvements from regular to all forest to all fungus.

Flowers: I don't know what you are talking about. What do you mean exactly?

[Hawkeye Fierce]

I usually played the Gaians for three reasons:

1) Their early access to mindworms could be very useful.
2) Their philosophy seemed to jive best with the eventual outcome of the game.
3) Deirdre was hot.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

I usually played the Gaians for three reasons:

1) Their early access to mindworms could be very useful.
2) Their philosophy seemed to jive best with the eventual outcome of the game.
3) Deirdre was hot.

So you prefer to be a hot girl than see one negotiate with you?

Interesting.

Troy

[Hawkeye Fierce]

So you prefer to be a hot girl than see one negotiate with you?

Interesting.

Troy

Hah. Never thought of it that way.

Though you do see your own leader in every single diplomacy panel, so you end up seeing more of Deirdre that way.

[Alan Au]

I used to play as the Gaians, but I would keep getting stomped by the University in the mid-game. I think that's the point where I started playing at the University.

- Alan

[Lum]

Miriam's harmless because their tech penalty keeps them in the stone age, even when you have tech through conquest turned on. Yang... yeah, kill him first. Oddly when I do that Morgan tends to run amuck.

I usually play either Zakharov or Morgan. With enough money, you can do anything.

[jeffd]

Dierdre is awesome early game because of mindworms but the longer the game goes on the more she fades

Zhakarov is almost the exact opposite. Early game his military penalties are a real liability, but late game he has more than enough tech to make up for it.

[Mind Elemental]

Add me to the list of people who always played the University. Not just for gameplay reasons, but I liked their philosophy the best out of all the factions. :)

I still have an AC game in which I was playing all seven sides, kind of enacting a story. Maxed out the techtree with only one real war, then I had all the factions start arming to the teeth in preparation for an apocalyptic WW3 kinda showdown...

[Timemaster Tim]

Count me as a Morganite. Money makes the world go 'round.

[RightWrong]

Count me as another Morganite. The computer apparently never saw as much threat in me buying their cities rather than conquering them. Plus, you could always make enough money early game to stay at least competitive in technology.

Strangely however, I chose Free Drones in the expansion.

P.S. Spartans first.

[Wobbo]

I always play as the Hive or the Drones - but not for ideological reasons, my left-wing politics are probably only a coincidence. Yang and Domai are the best factions because they have the highest Industry rates (+1 and +2 respectively), and for about 3/4 of game situations Industry is the single most important aspect of any faction.

Does anybody else still take the SMAC manual out of it's box and read it on the bog on occasion? It is absolutely fascinating reading for those with even the slimmest interest in colonisation and planetology.

The game itself was sublime, somehow everything just gelled together perfectly. (Iffy graphics and all.)

In a way I'm not interested in a sequel. SMAC strikes as a kind of once-in-a-lifetime anomaly. The voice-overs and philosophy of it can't be something you just pull out of your head in the course of a year or two's design meetings, they are ideas that seem incubated over a lifetime.
They should simply release the sourcecode so that SMAC can get the treatment that Doom, Quake, and several other GPLed games have got from their respective fan communities - graphics updates, bug fixes, AI that actually works, etc.

I also love the manual, although the short-story was kinda weak.

[Enidigm]

I seemed to gravitate to the Peacekeepers. I couldn't stand playing the Gaians because i thought mind worms were kind of crappy. And i love the popcap + talents.

Morgan was great because i'd make a handful of hyper-expensive units, and wisk them around to hotspots. The low housing cap really hurt. You couldn't really be all that bad to Planet anyway, since as soon as you tried a thousand mindworms would pop up and destroy all your terraforming.

I couldn't ever get Miriam to work quite how i wanted. In theory i liked her philosophy, but there was something missing, somehow, and she never felt satisfying to play as the other factions. I guess probe team wars were just dull.

The biggest problem with AC vanilla was that whomever landed on the named rainforest invariably became the strongest faction.

[Alan Au]

Miriam is scary if left unchecked, at which point she'll just overrun you with outdated (but +25% to combat) units. That said, my only success as the Believers is when scout-patrol rushing people.

- Alan

[Adam B]

I started playing as the University, because tech bonuses are never balanced.

Then I discovered the Gaians, and the utter unfairness of an early-rush-to-midgame-turtle strategy with them.

Then the Morganites and their economic hax were the only way I could make the push up to the next difficulty (heck if I remember which one it was). It's been a while, but if I remember correctly there's a certain way to develop your cities that absolutely obliterates the growth rates of your opponents.

[Deadron]

I started out in this thread with the reasons I had a hard time getting too far in AC, but damn you people you are getting me fired up to spend time with it again...

[AndrewM]

I fired up a game as University, but the Hive quickly tore through Gaia and was coming for me with his giant stacks of artillery, so I just gave up.

[Mind Elemental]

AndrewM: what difficulty level were you on?

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned supply crawler abuse yet (that I can remember!)...

[AndrewM]

Two from the top, I think. Talent? Librarian? Something like that. I was University, but Hive was still able to keep up with me in military tech, which was embarassing.

[Matt Perkins]

I too started SMAC back up after reading this thread... damn you all, I was up way too late last night with Just One More Turn™ syndrome.

[UncleSmoothie]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned supply crawler abuse yet (that I can remember!)...
What was supply crawler abuse again? I have a hazy recollection that you could build supply crawlers in fast production cities for the sole purpose of dismantling them for shields (or whatever it was in AC) to speed up Secret Projects. Was that it?

[Brian Reynolds]

Does anybody else still take the SMAC manual out of it's box and read it on the bog on occasion? It is absolutely fascinating reading for those with even the slimmest interest in colonisation and planetology.

The game itself was sublime, somehow everything just gelled together perfectly. (Iffy graphics and all.)

In a way I'm not interested in a sequel. SMAC strikes as a kind of once-in-a-lifetime anomaly. The voice-overs and philosophy of it can't be something you just pull out of your head in the course of a year or two's design meetings, they are ideas that seem incubated over a lifetime.

You know my initial tentative posts to "sci.physics" and "sci.space.tech", looking for someone to answer a few questions about the physics of the star system, are still at least partially available at. (Also takes me down memory lane to a time when there was... netiquette!)

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.space.tech/browse_thread/thread/fa774acf5e516941/233bde2b27bd60e1?lnk=st&q=&rnum=3#233bde2b27bd60e1

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/4cc0681cbf9540ad/38f1542d2aecc36c?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1#38f1542d2aecc36c

Fun to watch the hardcore science types go to town!

Those threads eventually led to a most helpful and detailed e-mail from a British guy named Del Cotter, and I signed him to help a Philosophy guy like me keep the hard sci-fi hard enough. Del's the one who helped me tailor a plausible world, working things I wanted (like Mind Worms) into the ecology while disabusing me of bad ideas like green skies. The most tangible sign of the collaboration is the middle 2/3 of Appendix 5 of the manual.

Oh, and by the way your last paragraph is pretty close to my opinion too.

Brian

[Matt Perkins]

Brian

That's horribly interesting info that I hadn't heard before. I, though I'm sure not the only one, love the level of detail and thought put into the game.

As I said above, it's not just the mechanics that made SMAC so good. It's everything. The voices, the personalities, the living planet, the everything. It came together amazingly well.

/me quits spooging.


While I can't agree that no sequel should ever be made, I can agree completely that if it can't have the same level of detail, thought and care put into by the people that made the original, it probably shouldn't be made.

/me holds out hope against hope.

[Enidigm]

All this is great but can't we just get it remastered into 2007 era graphics and sound effects? :) j/k, that's a great thread. I like how the climactic fluctuations they spoke of made it into the game (albiet as somewhat different events).

But seriously though the one thing holding Alpha Centauri back today are it's awful and dated graphics and mind numbingly hollow sounds and music. While not bad in bits, they grind your attention up over long sessions and make playing honestly painful. The Cuotl musical score most reminds me of the sound of Alpha Centauri's "faction chords", btw.

I'd love Alpha C just re-released, voiceovers and all, but with modern technology.

[RichardC]

As I said above, it's not just the mechanics that made SMAC so good. It's everything. The voices, the personalities, the living planet, the everything. It came together amazingly well.

Christ, yes. Although playing it these days is a bit of a pain, it's easily my favourite game of its type - far ahead of the Civ games on my list of classics. Aside from X-Com, I can't think of many I played more heavily.

[Matt Perkins]

Beside the lack of a bigger resolution (I keep trying to zoom out with my mouse wheel :P), SMAC holds pretty damn well. It works fine on XP (with the patch) and runs great. I do know some people have sound problems I feel your pain (my laptop has similar issues on the video playback when you get the big research done).

[zx81-Amd64]

All this is great but can't we just get it remastered into 2007 era graphics and sound effects? :)
Dear God No!! That would really ensure the 'curse of the sequel'. 3D camera(confusing for confusions sake) - 3D world(look you can zoom in on your unit!Whoppie doo!) - goodbye the strategy and point of the game imo.

[Wader]

Did anyone else use the "recommended reading list" that was in the back of the manual? I got more good science fiction novels (that I still own today) out of the Alpha Centauri manual than almost any other source...

[Timemaster Tim]

3D world(look you can zoom in on your unit!Whoppie doo!)

Actually, considering how alike all the units looked, that would have been useful to figure out just what the hell you had in the area.

[zx81-Amd64]

Yeah but the designs for different units come so quick it would soon become fairly redundent in that you would spend most of your time panning around your unit and not getting on with the game. 3D software is cool for exploring stuff in 3D - in a game(especialy a strat game) i find it often just gets in the way?

Actualy on that note can anyone name a highly rated strat game(held in the same respect as games like SMAC, Civ etc) that used a fully 3D game engine, with all the unit zooming stuff etc?

[Deadron]

Civ4 uses 3D and I think allows zooming (haven't played recently enough to be sure). It's definitely good for a game like Caesar IV, where being able to look at your city from different angles solves some placement issues for 2D games that have a quasi-3D real estate to them, though there can be camera issues.

I wouldn't rule out 3D as useful in a strategy game. Developers are just currently working on how to integrate it in a useful manner, and there definitely can be a loss going from 2D to 3D. For example, even with the benefit mentioned above, I prefer the 2D city builder games to the 3D version because the people could be at an unrealistic scale and stand out more, where they currently get somewhat lost in the more realistically scaled 3D.

However, I suspect that before long developers will come up with some 3D innovations in strategy games that will be compelling. Even SMAC had a bit of 3D to it (land elevation and such) that hadn't existed in previous games of that ilk to my knowledge. And we see with games like Homeworld and Supreme Commander a combined approach, where you play in 3D for some aspects and a 2D overview for other aspects. I haven't played Supreme Commander, but this was quite compelling in Homeworld and I wouldn't want to give up either view, as each contributed something important to the game.

[Fugitive]

Actualy on that note can anyone name a highly rated strat game(held in the same respect as games like SMAC, Civ etc) that used a fully 3D game engine, with all the unit zooming stuff etc?
There's Galactic Civilizations II, also with the customizable unit graphics.

Unnecessary, perhaps, but it appeals to those of us who spent way too much of their childhoods crafting elaborate LEGO spaceships.

[AndrewM]

Actually, considering how alike all the units looked, that would have been useful to figure out just what the hell you had in the area.

You can zoom in and out in SMAC, too. Just at a rough granularity.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Actualy on that note can anyone name a highly rated strat game(held in the same respect as games like SMAC, Civ etc) that used a fully 3D game engine, with all the unit zooming stuff etc?

How many 2D games can you name that are in that rarefied air? And how many of those are in the 4x game 3D era?

Troy

[Mind Elemental]

What was supply crawler abuse again? I have a hazy recollection that you could build supply crawlers in fast production cities for the sole purpose of dismantling them for shields (or whatever it was in AC) to speed up Secret Projects. Was that it?

Wasn't there also a way to abuse their ability to send back production to their home city? Mind you, this is all based on years-old memories of AC forum discussions (I never tried anything funky with crawlers myself), so I could be totally wrong.

As for the graphics debate... well, I personally thought Civ 2 looked nicer, and sounded much nicer, than AC. (I hum the music from Civ2 - and some of the tracks inherited from Civ1 and Colonization - to this day!)

[RightWrong]

I'm pretty sure that was the abuse, although I don't know the specifics. Your city can only harvest within its little square, but enough supply crawlers and you can make a lot of stuff in one turn.

I never tried it more than a couple turns. One of the few guaranteed ways to make AC uglier than it already is.

[zx81-Amd64]

How many 2D games can you name that are in that rarefied air? And how many of those are in the 4x game 3D era?

Troy

Not sure i get you 100% I dont count SMAC or CIV as strat games with 3D engines(althought Civ4 clearly does - Civ2 is probably still seen as the classic best all time Civ game). And there is a reason why those that have attempted to 'join' the 3D era have not done as well......if that's what you meant?

Here's a list of the top of my head that i class as true classic strat games in a broad sense that covers a few different genres:

1. SMAC
2. Civ(1+2)
3. CTP(1+2)
4. EU(1+2)
5. Colonization
6. Lords of the realm(1+2)
7. Warlords(1-3)
8. Master of Magic
9. Lords of Magic
10. Romance of the three Kingdoms(pick a handfull, earlier the better?)
11. Xcom(1+2)
12. Caesar(1-3)
13. Pharoah

I could dig out my collection and rattle of another dozen, safe in the knowledge that they would have little competition from contempory efforts most likely.All are basicaly 2D, and the ones that converted to 3D did seem to loose something in the process(Pharoah-Children of the Nile/Caesar2-Caesar4 etc).

The point i'm making is that so far it doesn't look like 3D added to a 'grand strat' game works very well, atleast not where the 3D isn't 'locked down' to behave more like 2D. I think it's quite important especialy in our industry where if it isn't 3D the publisher doesn't want to touch it. So my point is 3D for 3D's sake isn't helping strat games(my favourite genre btw), neither is the predominace of console gaming(which is 99% 3D based), and it would be the last thing i'd want to see in any possible future SMAC - games like that imho are not about 3D, they are about being able to manage lots of info in as comfortable way as possible(and in the case of SMAC, handling a great story in such a perfect way).

But anyway you can paint me as not being a great fan of 3D in gaming, and why i'm not that overawed by next-gen and last gen console gaming for the most part(even though it can be a brief fun ride).

[AndrewM]

I think the problem is that nobody cares about TBS any more, not that TBS is going 3D. Civ 4 is excellent (I think it's the best of the series), and uses 3d well, so I don't see how there can be any debate that 3d has to ruin a TBS game. As you even point out, the 3D can be locked down so it mostly behaves like 2D.

[zx81-Amd64]

I think the problem is that nobody cares about TBS any more, not that TBS is going 3D. Civ 4 is excellent (I think it's the best of the series), and uses 3d well, so I don't see how there can be any debate that 3d has to ruin a TBS game. As you even point out, the 3D can be locked down so it mostly behaves like 2D.

Game publishers keep telling us no one cares about tbs anymore dont they? But from many threads in computer game related forums(mature ones like here), i just dont buy that line. I even bought a GBA just so i could play some TBS i hadn't tried, i'm probably not the only one.

The mainstream industry has definately given up on tbs for the most part. And in terms of 3D, i wasn't saying that 3D has to ruin strat games, just that so far it hasn't improved it.

The real issue here is that devs dont often get to have their say - they dont hold the purse strings, and publishers have decided that 2D and tbs wont get the funding.

I know a guy who works for a AAA production house, i met him just as he landed the job there and we had a great discussion about Advance Wars on the GBA. He had even started to develope his own tbs war game and was hoping to get around to finishing it.
Anyway at some point more recently, he got higher up the chain of command and was asked if he had any idea's for games. So he told them what he thought and was told they didnt develope for a platform that they would be able see that game done on.

many people in the publishing arm of games don't come from a pure gaming background - they have business or marketing skills, and some exposure to games. These 'casual' gamers i would hazard, are people very easily wowed by a FMV sequence(in old money) or a glossy showing at E3(or whatever its become now). Still if they had the time to sit down with a good(even old) tbs, i'm sure even they could see the inherent gaming qualities in the genre.

We have alot of people out there not satisfied with the bland, glossy, +often short fare that modern gaming has sadly become. Obviously you also have alot of people who just dont know their elbow from their ankle and will believe the hype and go buy the game - the money tells that story?

Still i think we should try to be all things to all people as devs(and more so publishers), it's healthier for the industry overall. Hopefuly if certain game genres get the cold shoulder from the mainstream we will see more small outfits attempt to address the balance.

[Qenan]

I think there are a lot of us numerically, but not as a percentage of the market.

[SlyFrog]

Guys, you're missing the point. We could create the next Alpha Centauri.

So, we'll need a couple of programmers, a couple of artists, a couple of sound guys, and someone with some hosting space.

I'll be the ideas guy with no skillset to offer who leads the project. Let's go!

[RichardC]

Slow down, man! Wait at least a week before Beta 3!

[Vic Davis]

Guys, you're missing the point. We could create the next Alpha Centauri.

So, we'll need a couple of programmers, a couple of artists, a couple of sound guys, and someone with some hosting space.

I'll be the ideas guy with no skillset to offer who leads the project. Let's go!


Only if you give yourself a majority stake in the company, make the rest of us feel like we aren't working hard enough, and continually change your "ideas" after we have implemented them. Let's do it! Crunch Time baby! I'm going to be a start up millionare.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

The point i'm making is that so far it doesn't look like 3D added to a 'grand strat' game works very well, atleast not where the 3D isn't 'locked down' to behave more like 2D.

But take a look at your list. How many of those are from a time when 3D wasn't even an option? My question was how many 2D games released since Civ and SMAC - but when 3D was available - could reach that height of quality. You're asking people to think of awesome 3D strategy games when

a) very few strategy games are made in true 3D to begin with, and
b) very few games are amazingly excellent in any case.

This is not an indictment of 3D, because there are so few strategy games that have had it, especially if you want to dismiss 3D modelled games like Civ 4 and EU3 because their perspective is "locked down" to look 2D.

The very lack of TBS games shows either that developers already agree with you and are not doing 3D for 3D's sake or that they're still trying to work out the kinks.

If you throw in City Building Sims, you have to throw in RTS games, too. In which case, 3D is big step forward. Those are strategy games, and work great in 3D, unless you want to dismiss Company of Heroes and Age of Mythology for no good reason. Why do you include one subgenre (and then completely diss Children of the Nile!) and not the other?

Troy

[zx81-Amd64]

@Qenan - i think GBA sales of tbs games could prove otherwise? It will be interesting to see how the next well made(that bit is crucial as for most games) tbs game on PC does. But take a look at your list. How many of those are from a time when 3D wasn't even an option? My question was how many 2D games released since Civ and SMAC - but when 3D was available - could reach that height of quality. You're asking people to think of awesome 3D strategy games when

a) very few strategy games are made in true 3D to begin with, and
b) very few games are amazingly excellent in any case.

This is not an indictment of 3D, because there are so few strategy games that have had it, especially if you want to dismiss 3D modelled games like Civ 4 and EU3 because their perspective is "locked down" to look 2D.

The very lack of TBS games shows either that developers already agree with you and are not doing 3D for 3D's sake or that they're still trying to work out the kinks.

If you throw in City Building Sims, you have to throw in RTS games, too. In which case, 3D is big step forward. Those are strategy games, and work great in 3D, unless you want to dismiss Company of Heroes and Age of Mythology for no good reason. Why do you include one subgenre (and then completely diss Children of the Nile!) and not the other?

Troy

Good points - it's very difficult trying to synthisize the last 15 years of video games and potential potholes we've created for ourselves on the way into a forum post.

I never did dis Children of the Nile - i own it and i like it....but not as much as Pharoah for example, and the reason was all the 3D 'work' i had to do to play the game - i wanted to sit there with my Pharoah headress on and stratagise, but ended up panning camera angles much of the time to make my job easier.

RTS is fine - i also found the ones that moved into 'full 3D'(shall we call it that to differentiate between 'locked down' 3D?), like Empire Earth, Starship Troopers etc to be less easy to manage in the strategic sense, again because i spend alot of time messing with the view. I'm not dissing those games either, they were fine, just maybe not as compelling as 'less 3D' versions?

The bottom line for me is why let 3D dominate our games, even when it could be argued it makes certain genres less interesting than what has historicaly preceded them?

I think i know why it's like that, but it still doesn't make it as happy a place as it could be as a gamer?

Ok i've stolen this thread enough - it's about SMAC and all the good times that game gave, and continues to give it's players. I watched the intro video of it last night - it's more relevent now than ever!! spooky! - someone had a crystal ball?!

[TurinTuramba]

By the way was there ever a popular rebalance "mod" for alpha centauri? It seems most of the game rules can be easily changed by editing the text files, so it should be easy to nerf some of the vastly overpowered things(crawlers/helis in particular).

[zx81-Amd64]

http://apolyton.net/smac/

There are a fair few mods and links on this site - i haven't tried any of them though.

[Alan Au]

I think most of the crawler abuse problems had to do with pooling production and rush-building wonders, since crawlers could be dismantled to reclaim full production value. Essentially, you could stockpile/upgrade crawlers in advance and rush-build a wonder on the turn you got the required tech.

- Alan

[AndrewM]

I think most of the crawler abuse problems had to do with pooling production and rush-building wonders, since crawlers could be dismantled to reclaim full production value. Essentially, you could stockpile/upgrade crawlers in advance and rush-build a wonder on the turn you got the required tech.

You can also just have a city churning away uselessly on a long-completed wonder, and switch it over to a new one once it arises. I suppose that at least has the drawback of requiring that you tie up a city doing nothing.

[Thrag]

I think most of the crawler abuse problems had to do with pooling production and rush-building wonders, since crawlers could be dismantled to reclaim full production value. Essentially, you could stockpile/upgrade crawlers in advance and rush-build a wonder on the turn you got the required tech.

I thought trying to keep a pile of crawlers to rush build projects was what they were for. I never considered it abusing the system.

[Damien Neil]

I think the problem is that nobody cares about TBS any more, not that TBS is going 3D. Civ 4 is excellent (I think it's the best of the series), and uses 3d well, so I don't see how there can be any debate that 3d has to ruin a TBS game. As you even point out, the 3D can be locked down so it mostly behaves like 2D.

I have a lot of friends who rarely play games who were very interested in Civ 4. None of them could run it on their machines--the graphics requirements were just too steep. Either the game wouldn't work at all, or it was unplayably slow.

So, I'd disagree about Civ 4 using 3D well. I think that the graphics ruined the game for a very large percentage of its potential audience.

Heck, I can think of two or three people that vowed never to buy a PC game again after getting burned with Civ 4.

[metta]

So, I'd disagree about Civ 4 using 3D well. I think that the graphics ruined the game for a very large percentage of its potential audience.

Yeah, it's Sid, so naturally I'm going to keep playing it (and playing it), but I don't think the 3D bought me anything but performance headaches. In my opinion, Civ III is the most attractive of the series, and I'd still be playing it, if it weren't for some of the brilliant design choices they made with Civ IV.

[Qenan]

Civ IV played OK on my machine, but I don't think 3D brought it anything worthwhile either. It was just a stunt.

[EvilIdler]

The 3D didn't do anything to the game mechanic in Civ4 s, but it sure is pretty on a widescreen.
It was slow on my gaming computer at the time of launch, but a few patches
fixed that. The whole engine was a bit unoptimised, but going 3D didn't cause
the problems people complained about. SMAC in this engine would be playable
to a not very updated system. Laptops from earlier than last year are right out, though :/

[Anders Hallin]

I think people underestimate the behind-the-scenes effect of 3D making just about everything easier for the developers. Just ask Brad Wardell!

[zx81-Amd64]

yeah but who are the devs making games for?(oh sorry its the shareholders!)

I should get Civ4 to try it, i know much of the new stuff added to it came by way of much of the modding of CTP2(and 1), and various people who worked on that mod project and source code release were good to get on board for Civ4. And i dont have a hardware excuse not to try it - it will be next on my list and that will allow we to better judge the 3D use in a recent tbs game. EU3 kind of is another one(although its not a tbs - it never felt like a true rts to me) to look at.

[AndrewM]

yeah but who are the devs making games for?(oh sorry its the shareholders!)

Sure, but if going 3D lets them spend less time on whatever, then that gives them more time to spend on something else.

But I see your overall point. 3D doesn't do a huge amount for CivIV. I could imagine a 2D frontend for it. They could even generate the sprites from the 3D models.

[Brian Reynolds]

I sometimes wonder if the whole 3D-graphics-card thing is killing (has killed?) the traditional (non-MMO) PC game market as much as piracy or consoles or anything else. Sometimes it feels like we're back to the "autoexec.bat" and "config.sys" level of installation difficulty.

Brian

[Alan Dunkin]

See? I told you Brian hangs around :)

--- Alan

[Matt Perkins]

I sometimes wonder if the whole 3D-graphics-card thing is killing (has killed?) the traditional (non-MMO) PC game market as much as piracy or consoles or anything else. Sometimes it feels like we're back to the "autoexec.bat" and "config.sys" level of installation difficulty.

Brian I don't know. The graphic card put is WAY back in terms of knowing if your system can run a game and sometimes you still have to manually configure your card/driver so that it will work with specific games. But it's only getting better with time. Vista helps a lot, imho, with it's rating system, there only being two real graphics chips anymore helps and they've become almost standard on computers these days.

To be fair, I don't develop games for a living, so I don't have to take into account different 3D cards and drivers and so on when I'm programming/designing (someone talk to me about the different browsers though...omg).

For consumers though, I think it's only getting better with time.

[Damien Neil]

3D graphics have definitely moved us to an era where you need a gamer-oriented system in order to play any "mainstream" games. If you aren't a gamer, becoming one requires buying new hardware. Which means that non-gamers don't generally become gamers.

Remember back when DOOM came out? Everyone was playing it. Everyone. The guy who ran my home town's video rental place was playing it in on his PC in the back office. My college roommate, who never played games, was playing it on his crappy 386. If you had a PC, you could play DOOM.

Nowadays, those people will have machines that simply can't run the latest games. The graphics hardware won't be up to it.

[DeathMonkey]

Nowadays, those people will have machines that simply can't run the latest games. The graphics hardware won't be up to it.

Except for WoW. It's hard to find a notebook made this decade that won't play the game at an acceptable clip.

[Damien Neil]

Yep. Blizzard gets it.

And there's one of the foremost reasons why there are hordes of people who will run out and buy the latest Blizzard game the moment it releases, but who hardly ever touch anything from any other publisher.

[zx81-Amd64]

Yeah i had overlooked the technical 'cost' of all the fairly recent sophisticated(and mostly console driven) 3D games - the hardware issues etc. Interestingly i had alot of trouble getting Children of the Nile to run well(even after patching and help from the good folk on the forums at tilted mill). And today trying 'Atlantis'(one of those cryo games) out was tricky - it would only work on one of my three main pc's(an old one).

So yeah there is that whole technical side to what the big push for graphic realism could have cost in terms of dev and a games success or failure.

And i have 'found' a recent(ish) TBS game(on console) that uses a 3D engine(for the most part) AND is actualy quite decent. Gladius by Lucasarts.
The 3D feels a little rough around the edges compared to recent games, but the game has grown on me these last weeks - so i can disprove my own arguement with that game. You can make a good tbs in 3D. In fact it feels perfectly controlable in the same kinda way Knights of the Republic does. I got this months ago - played for a few hours then got distracted, but i could quite happily add this to my tbs list, even if it does have a slightly confusing UI at times.

I think i'm just sad that 2D has been left behind in much of our mainstream gaming, and especialy so when that choice can have adverse effects on your games design+playability. 2D is beautiful too imho, and sometimes a better choice than 3D.

[Matt Perkins]

3D graphics have definitely moved us to an era where you need a gamer-oriented system in order to play any "mainstream" games. If you aren't a gamer, becoming one requires buying new hardware. Which means that non-gamers don't generally become gamers.

Remember back when DOOM came out? Everyone was playing it. Everyone. The guy who ran my home town's video rental place was playing it in on his PC in the back office. My college roommate, who never played games, was playing it on his crappy 386. If you had a PC, you could play DOOM.

Nowadays, those people will have machines that simply can't run the latest games. The graphics hardware won't be up to it.
That's a good point and I hadn't considered it from that side.

I guess I just don't think of the video guy or the garbage woman or mail man as gamers just looking for games that run on their ancient systems.

But I agree with your point about Doom and it still applies to things like the original CS. So many people STILL play that because most anyone with a computer can run that bad boy these days.

[Damien Neil]

I think that not thinking of the video guy as a potential gamer is one of the problems with the "mainstream" games industry. There are a lot of people out there who aren't gaming aficionados but who still are interested in playing something every once in a while.

My girlfriend, who sneers at gaming in general, reminisces about playing Civ 2 for hours on end in college. Firaxis wasn't interested in her as a potential customer of Civ 4, however, and released a game that her aging system could never hope of running. So far as she's concerned, the gaming industry doesn't care about people like her--and she's absolutely right.

There's this perverse introverted elitism to the PC gaming industry, and I have no doubt that it's driving a lot of potential customers away.

If you're making something like Company of Heroes, I can sort of understand--that game targets the RTS aficionado market, and has chosen to abandon the hope of the broad appeal of a Warcraft or Starcraft in hopes of better appealing to that market. But Civ 4? If I'd been making Civ 4, my first and foremost goal would be to get every one of those people who fondly remember late nights playing Civ to come back and play once again. I just don't understand why a developer would deliberately choose to write off such a large market.

[metta]

...good stuff

Terrific post, Damien.

[Qenan]

Yes it was.

[Damien Neil]

Stop it, you'll make me blush. :>

[Vic Davis]

My girlfriend, who sneers at gaming in general, reminisces about playing Civ 2 for hours on end in college. Firaxis wasn't interested in her as a potential customer of Civ 4, however, and released a game that her aging system could never hope of running. So far as she's concerned, the gaming industry doesn't care about people like her--and she's absolutely right.

I dont think it's that the "industry" doesn't care about her. That's just how markets work. Her tastes and systems specs have been judged to be in a segment that companies will choose to skip to go after the "big one"....14-22 males? Personally, I think its a bad judgement that large inefficient companies have made. It's not a perfect analogy but look at the blockbuster movie industry, which also is coming under fire not only producing generic rubbish but also declining ticket receipts. When your'e the CEO of a multi billion dollar company you want your team to be scoring the big ones and that's what you encourage. What surprises me is the lack of a counter movement by medium size companies to sweep up the borderline niche markets. I guess somebody like strategy first tries this. Stardock does this as well. 100k to 400k units sold over a range of titles could be a nice revenue stream. But it's not a dent in the bottom line of the mega corps.


There's this perverse introverted elitism to the PC gaming industry, and I have no doubt that it's driving a lot of potential customers away.
.

I love a 2-D presentation as much as the next old curmudgeon, but technology marches on. Like it's been said before, 3-D is a step forward for asset management, animation, and a host of other development issues. I don't see the elitism. There are always games that push the envelope and that's part of their mystique and appeal. I still remember buying a new rig just to play Wing Commander. Moore's Law was looking a little sick in bed for a while but rumor's of its death seem to have been premature. It can be painful for the wallet but "progress" is good.


If you're making something like Company of Heroes, I can sort of understand--that game targets the RTS aficionado market, and has chosen to abandon the hope of the broad appeal of a Warcraft or Starcraft in hopes of better appealing to that market. But Civ 4? If I'd been making Civ 4, my first and foremost goal would be to get every one of those people who fondly remember late nights playing Civ to come back and play once again. I just don't understand why a developer would deliberately choose to write off such a large market.

I was skeptical of the Civ 4 switch to 3-D but the execution is well done. I think the Gamebryo? engine has a blury look that I don't like. But until machines can handle the greater demands and technology advances further the texture stretched across a polygon isn't going to look as crisp....especially for the top down perspective that strategy games demand. We are on the cusp of getting there but not there yet.

Without seeming rude, what are your girlfriends system specs? I just don't see Civ 4 as having left out a big section of the market because of specs. The minimum is listed as a Geforce 2 although whether that will really work I don't know. I guess my impression was that Civ 4 with some patchs for some peoples systems wasn't exceptionally demanding.....certainly not as much as something like a typical FPS/RTS.

[AndrewM]

Except for WoW. It's hard to find a notebook made this decade that won't play the game at an acceptable clip.

I looked up the systems requirements for Civ IV (http://www.2kgames.com/civ4/support_msr.htm) and WoW (http://www.blizzard.com/support/wow/?id=aww0823p), and the reqs for WoW aren't really that much lower than Civ 4, given that WoW came out a year earlier. I don't know if it is an example of Blizzard's amazing vision as much as it is that WoW is by now a rather old game.

[DeathMonkey]

I don't know if it is an example of Blizzard's amazing vision as much as it is that WoW is by now a rather old game.

The main praise I was laying on Blizzard is that their games have great performance and run on almost every platform. Notebooks are notoriously difficult to support because they frequently have specialized graphics and sound hardware that often work different enough to cause enormous headaches for development teams. For test teams, it is far easier (and cheaper) to collect and test the last 5 years of video cards than all the laptop configurations that appeared during that time.

Making games that are fun, look great, and play well on everyone's home computer is nearly impossible. I hold the deepest respect for Blizzard for doing that with every new product.

No mainstream developer sets out to exclude a sizable share of the market by demanding the latest PC hardware; it makes as much sense as throwing money out your window.

[Brendan]

I sometimes wonder if the whole 3D-graphics-card thing is killing (has killed?) the traditional (non-MMO) PC game market as much as piracy or consoles or anything else. Sometimes it feels like we're back to the "autoexec.bat" and "config.sys" level of installation difficulty.

Brian

I'm personally of the opinion that there is room for both 2D and 3D games, something which the market doesn't doesn't seem to comprehend. I'd love to see more sprite based games (3D adds to development costs in my opinion, where once you needed artists, now you need modelers, texture artists and shader coders.) made for $500 000 (With an additional budget of $500 000 for marketing etc.), sold for $20 to 150 000 people. Surely there is some sense to a business model like this provided you don't have shareholders to please. Subsistence game development as opposed to commercial game development if you will.

[EvilIdler]

Yeah, actual system demands went down towards what's printed on the box
for Civ4 once they had a few patches out. It was like getting a new computer.
But it was when Civ4 was new :(

[Robert Sharp]

I sometimes wonder if the whole 3D-graphics-card thing is killing (has killed?) the traditional (non-MMO) PC game market as much as piracy or consoles or anything else. Sometimes it feels like we're back to the "autoexec.bat" and "config.sys" level of installation difficulty.

Brian

Couldn't you argue that it actually ruined a lot TBS games just because developers feel they have to have 3d graphics, which really ruined a lot of those TBS games that came out during the transition to 3d phase. I mean with everyone trying to get the graphics right, there wasn't enough spent on the gameplay. Right now, the best TBS games (perhaps the only?) are made by indy developers that can't even try to get the latest wiz-bang graphics. So they go 2d, focus on the gameplay, and make decent games.

Of course, a lot of these TBS games are on the GBA and DS too, which is 2d. When you can only do 2d, TB suddenly becomes attractive. Once you lose that limitation, publishers seem to think you shouldn't go back to it. In other words, TB is seen as a limitation on gameplay rather than an interesting feature.

I hate this mentality because for me RTS is too frenetic. Some call it realistic, but realistically one mind doesn't have to think for 100 units. Since I DO have to think for them all, I want to be able to give them all orders in my time. Those Combat Mission games make a nice compromise here, actually. So did the Infinity Engine.

[Robert Sharp]

To add to Damien's point, even MMOs are running into hardware problems. COH is having TONS of random DCs from people who can't handle the graphics from the latest patches. At least that seems to be the problem. So my Wed. night group has become unplayable because at our level we fight guys that cause computers to lockup and such. It doesn't happen to me because I have a 7950GT and 2 gigs of RAM. But everyone else in my group disconnects from being overloaded. It's incredibly frustrating.

But you can imagine that the testers played it on decent machines, and since the game still plays on lower end machines, any short tests they did on those didn't catch the problem.

[marxeil]

I hate this mentality because for me RTS is too frenetic. Some call it realistic, but realistically one mind doesn't have to think for 100 units.
There's nothing realistic about an RTS (especially compared to TBS). It's as realistic as shooting a gun in SWAT or some other tactical shooter.

[Deadron]

To add to Damien's point, even MMOs are running into hardware problems. COH is having TONS of random DCs from people who can't handle the graphics from the latest patches.

Off topic, but one of my favorite errors ever was a boss that would spawn as part of a City of Heroes quest, and on spawning everyone in the party would crash to the desktop.

What made this my favorite? The alert that popped up saying, "Call Howard to report this!"

[Justin Fletcher]

All this is great but can't we just get it remastered into 2007 era graphics and sound effects? :)
All this is great but can't we just get it on the DS?

[Wobbo]

Beside the lack of a bigger resolution (I keep trying to zoom out with my mouse wheel :P), SMAC holds pretty damn well. It works fine on XP (with the patch) and runs great. I do know some people have sound problems I feel your pain (my laptop has similar issues on the video playback when you get the big research done).

I know this is thread necromacy, but for anybody who doesn't know, simply ad "directDraw=0" to AlphaCentauri in and voila, the game will run in your desktop resolution! It also allows for proper alt-tab switching and proper color modes (32-bit color) for anything else you may happen to be running at the same time.

[Wobbo]

Sure, but if going 3D lets them spend less time on whatever, then that gives them more time to spend on something else.

Are you implying that it takes less work to make polygonal 3D models and animations than 2D rendering? Because that's highly unlikely for a strategy game.

For the record, SMAC was a 3d game, with both polygons and voxels.

[Pogo]

Since you've necro'd this, I think the unit building was a double edged sword. The system was there to make you want to design your own specialized units, but the rate at which you advanced in the game meant constantly updating your own creations and it got very tiresome after a while.

[azzl]

Unit customization would have been more appealing, rapid tech upgrades or not, if there had been a tactical combat engine to make use of your custom designs. I know the Civ series prefers a more abstract combat model, but there's too little payoff to bother with custom units otherwise. SMAC with less former/drone micromanagement and a MOO2-like tactical combat would be a great game.

[sinfony]

I sometimes wonder if the whole 3D-graphics-card thing is killing (has killed?) the traditional (non-MMO) PC game market as much as piracy or consoles or anything else. Sometimes it feels like we're back to the "autoexec.bat" and "config.sys" level of installation difficulty.
I think the proliferation of laptops is largely to blame here. Can't speak for AMD, but I know that NVidia leaves driver updates for its laptop cards in the hands of the laptop's manufacturer, and that such manufacturers often can't be bothered to update the driver. Example: I bought my current laptop last August. The driver that came with it was incompatible with Bioshock. NVidia fixed that bug before Bioshock even came out, but Dell didn't get around to providing an update until the end of October. Granted, it's pretty easy to tweak the driver to install on the mobile cards, but hardly anybody is going to go to the trouble to find out how, or even think that it might be possible.

[gordonrumble]

While it isn't true for every game, for most PC games I'd say if it can't run decently and look okay on a two year old midrange computer, there's a problem. I just see that market as absolutely massive, I'd guess far larger in terms of people than the super-high-end hardcore custom computer markets, and it's being treated like crap.

I have a laptop that was pretty good back in the day (pentium m 1.86 ghz, 1 gig ram, geforce 6600 go), and I think most games should still run fine on it. While many do, all the titles with any kind of marketing push are for that tiny high-end PC niche.

[wigglestick]

To be fair, I don't develop games for a living, so I don't have to take into account different 3D cards and drivers and so on when I'm programming/designing (someone talk to me about the different browsers though...omg).

Haha! I'm only just now branching into PHP and Javascript but I've been an (X)HTML and CSS monkey for years; I feel your pain.

EDIT: Way to go Don, replying to something that's a year and a half old!

[steve]

I just see that market as absolutely massive, I'd guess far larger in terms of people than the super-high-end hardcore custom computer markets, and it's being treated like crap.
It is massive, but it's dangerous to target laptop/onboard graphics because the press and gamers treat games that don't look super high-end like crap.

[wisefool]

Since you've necro'd this, I think the unit building was a double edged sword. The system was there to make you want to design your own specialized units, but the rate at which you advanced in the game meant constantly updating your own creations and it got very tiresome after a while.

You're like, the only real gamer (tm) I've met who's agreed with me on this. I did not enjoy the unit design because every 3 turns I'd have to update "Long Range Missile Mk IV" and change roman numeral at the end.

Never really enjoyed unit design in Galciv either (from the OS2 through Windows versions).

I did really did like unit design in MOO2 - building spyrogyros, death blasters, mirv missile boats, teleporting black hole generators.

[Timemaster Tim]

With AC, designing custom units didn't really make much of a difference. You could use all the standard units and do perfectly fine. On the otherhand, the MOO/2 customisation of ships did matter as the choice of weapons and defense could alter the outcome of the battles.