Early 80's WW3 Novels

[DivDevlin]

Does anyone know the name of a series of books which came out in the early 80's (my best guess) based on WW3. It was in the same vein as Mack Bolan, Able Team and Phoenix Force.

A military group had to travel around the nuked wastelands of the US collecting important figures to help rebuild.

Thanks,
Div

[Peter Frazier]

In the early eighties, I loved 'The Zone' (http://members.iinet.net.au/~avalon11/The%20Zone/THE%20ZONE.htm) series of books, but it wasn't set in the US.
Hey, I'm doubting that you can go back to your teenage favourites, but I'm pretty tempted to download the complete series from the site....

[Dave Markell]

I'm not aware of the series in question, but I highly recommend General Sir John Hackett's The Third World War if you're interesed in a senior NATO commander's take on how it could have been fought.

[XPav]

A good companion to The Third World War is Coyle's Team Yankee -- set in the same setting (with permission), but at the level of a tank company.

I am also not aware of the series in question.

Clancy's Red Storm Rising was pretty good, I thought.
Bond's military books (didn't read the spy ones) were alright.
Coyle's books used to be good until he fell into the same trap as many authors and reused the characters to the point of PTSD.
The WW3 books by Ian Slater were awful.
Arc Light was good on first read, but sucked on second read.

[Enduro_Man]

Team Yankee was a quick and neat story. I picked it up a few months after reading Ralph Peters' Red Army, which presented a conventional WW3 from the Soviet perspective. It's been a long time since I read the books, but I recall Coyle's as being more action-packed, while Red Army's narrative seemed pretty sedate for long stretches.

I'll second Red Storm Rising, which is one of Clancy's best. Compare the focused, tense, RSR to his later The Bear and the Dragon, which reduces a Chinese-American war to a ridiculously one-sided affair that occupies less than 30% of his thousand-page monsterpiece.

Larry Bond's Phoenix, envisioning a second Korean War, was enjoyable and resembles early Clancy work. I also read his later Vortex, about the evil Afrikaner invasion of Namibia. Very dated, but not bad. I also mean to read his Cauldron, which posits an Old European invasion of the ex-Bloc countries. Don't think I'll ever get around to it...

[Alan Dunkin]

There was a series of books called CADS which had to do with powered armor, and wasn't all that great (and read a lot like a Mack Bolan novel).

If I recall correctly there was also a series of books called World War III by someone who's last name started with a Z.

--- Alan

[mrbloo]

Does anyone know the name of a series of books which came out in the early 80's (my best guess) based on WW3. It was in the same vein as Mack Bolan, Able Team and Phoenix Force.

A military group had to travel around the nuked wastelands of the US collecting important figures to help rebuild.

Thanks,
Div

While other people are recommending worthy, and much better books, I do have some experience of the shlock novels you're talking about.

I think I've read these particular novels (the first five at least), but I can't remember the name of the series, or the author. The first book started with the nukes dropping and an evacuation out of Washington DC. I remember some hard-bitten sergeant and later some red-headed hard-bitten military babe with huge boobs, who got it on with the sergeant and presumably made hard-bitten warrior children.

Okay, not much use, but we at least the beginning of a support group for people who've read very bad post-apocalypse fiction. The Morrow Project has a lot to answer for.

There was a series about a hard-bitten military dude who found a SAW post-bombs, and after writing his name in the wall of a house with the afore-mentioned SAW, went travelling across the country looking for his wife (like a very bad Survivalist knock-off). About half-way through the book, he meets some hot asian chick; cue 'hot throbbing purple member' prose and he never mentions the wife again. I think his name was SAW, or some other one-syllable word. Something easy to spell on a wall anyway.

There was also one about a one-eyed dude who wandered the wastes with his group of tough warrior dudes (along with his wish-fulfillment hot babe). They had massive Land Of The Dead style armoured RVs and people constantly threatened to poke his other eye out, which worried him inordinately. It was published in the same bad airport novel style as Mack Bolan, IIRC. Wikipedia says this one was called Deathlands, and holy crap, there are nearly 80 of them! They also say the later books aren't as good as the earlier books, which also boggles my mind.

I think your bad book is the first one. It was called something like the Phoenix Project, but I can't find any reference to it on the net.

Update: It was called The Guardians (http://www.biblio.com/books/21238634.html). Written By Richard Austin.

[DivDevlin]

While other people are recommending worthy, and much better books, I do have some experience of the shlock novels you're talking about.

I think I've read these particular novels (the first five at least), but I can't remember the name of the series, or the author. The first book started with the nukes dropping and an evacuation out of Washington DC. I remember some hard-bitten sergeant and later some red-headed hard-bitten military babe with huge boobs, who got it on with the sergeant and presumably made hard-bitten warrior children.

Okay, not much use, but we at least the beginning of a support group for people who've read very bad post-apocalypse fiction. The Morrow Project has a lot to answer for.

. . .

I think your bad book is the first one. It was called something like the Phoenix Project, but I can't find any reference to it on the net.

Update: It was called The Guardians (http://www.biblio.com/books/21238634.html). Written By Richard Austin.
That is it, thanks!

Of all the names I tried, that was not one I could remember!

[Balasarius]

I remember reading a book called War Day about life after a nuclear exchange. It was highly fucking depressing and I didn't get more than halfway through it.

The central characters were a pair or journalists who toured the United States to see what was left.

[Skipper]

Another vote for Red Storm Rising. Some of Clancy's better work.

[XPav]

I'll second Red Storm Rising, which is one of Clancy's best. Compare the focused, tense, RSR to his later The Bear and the Dragon, which reduces a Chinese-American war to a ridiculously one-sided affair that occupies less

I was a dedicated Clancy buyer in hardback until the Bear and Dragon. That thing was awful. Live streaming of UAV footage to the internet? WTF?

I picked up Red Rabbit in paperback, and that's the last Clancy book I buy ever. I find it amazing how one can write an entire spy novel with tension and build up, only to have absolutely nothing happen.

I found a technothriller from the late 70s in my dad's stuff once, read it. Hilarious looking at it today -- Mexico turns communist and the president of the US invents a bunch of futuristic space ships, goes into debt so bad that everyone returns to rural life, claims the the space ships are aliens, blows up major cities around the world, and assumes dictatorial powers.

Hahaha.

Cauldron was actually pretty good, I think Bond's best out of Red Phoenix/Vortex/Cauldron.

I've been trying to find The Third World War: The Untold Story, but have never found that. The Third World War was a pickup at a used bookstore.

[Linoleum]

I was a dedicated Clancy buyer in hardback until the Bear and Dragon. That thing was awful. Live streaming of UAV footage to the internet? WTF?

You know Fox is eventually going to sponsor a war...in HD!

[XPav]

You know Fox is eventually going to sponsor a war...in HD!
I'm sure they've already got swoopy intro graphics and stirring music ready to go.

[Slainte Mhath]

I remember a whole series of books from the 80's about the aftermath of WW3 and a group of people that travel around getting into abandoned military bunkers, fighting off mutants, gangs of theives and whatnot. The thing that set the series apart was that the author had a real love for guns, describing each gun in the story with almost loving detail, and the two main characters (both guys) were always looking to find new and more impressive firepower. The whole thing was a pretty massive series if I recall, with at least 8 or 10 books.

[Alan Dunkin]

I was a dedicated Clancy buyer in hardback until the Bear and Dragon. That thing was awful. Live streaming of UAV footage to the internet? WTF?

Well, theoretically, you could stream UAV video live to the internet since it's already done inside military networks. All of their live feeds are transmitted digitally via satellite and sometimes unencrypted. In fact, so much was sent during Gulf War II that the military was seriously considering leasing satellites because they were filling up their bandwidth rapidly.

Anyone remember the 7th carrier novels that appeared in the late 70s, early 80s I believe? It was about a 7th carrier that was supposed to make the attack on Pearl Harbor but got frozen in an iceberg or something like that, thawed out X number of years later and traversed the Pacific Ocean causing all kinds of havoc.

--- Alan

[JessicaM]

Larry Bond's Phoenix, envisioning a second Korean War, was enjoyable and resembles early Clancy work. I also read his later Vortex, about the evil Afrikaner invasion of Namibia. Very dated, but not bad. I also mean to read his Cauldron, which posits an Old European invasion of the ex-Bloc countries. Don't think I'll ever get around to it...

Bond was the guy who designed the original Harpoon naval miniatures game and the next 2 or 3 versions after that. Clancy also credited him as a collaborator on Red Storm Rising.

When I ran GEnie games back in the late '80s/early '90s, I used to go to his house in Virginia on the occasional "gaming weekend", where a cast of thousands would play everything from the old SPI wargames to Warhammer miniatures. The man is a fanatic gamer, :D.

[Bill]

Anyone remember the 7th carrier novels that appeared in the late 70s, early 80s I believe? It was about a 7th carrier that was supposed to make the attack on Pearl Harbor but got frozen in an iceberg or something like that, thawed out X number of years later and traversed the Pacific Ocean causing all kinds of havoc.

--- Alan

That sounds awesome. Sort of a Final Countdown from the Japanese perspective, and in reverse.

[Alan Dunkin]

If I recall correctly, Harpoon was used to wargame several Red Storm Rising situations (or, more appropriate, was used to wargame scenarios that showed up in RSR). Bond still has a lot of input in the newer naval wargames from Clash of Arms, including Harpoon 4, Command at Sea, the earlier Dreadnaughts stuff, etc.

--- Alan

[mrbloo]

I remember a whole series of books from the 80's about the aftermath of WW3 and a group of people that travel around getting into abandoned military bunkers, fighting off mutants, gangs of theives and whatnot. The thing that set the series apart was that the author had a real love for guns, describing each gun in the story with almost loving detail, and the two main characters (both guys) were always looking to find new and more impressive firepower. The whole thing was a pretty massive series if I recall, with at least 8 or 10 books.

Sounds like The Survivalist series. The writer had a hard-on for Pachmayr grips and must have had a macro for the gun descriptions. The series went completely bananas by the end, even by its own very low standards. Cryogenic chambers and donating his girlfriend to his son while he gets his original wife back, and freezing the girlfriend until his son is old enough to use her as responsibly as his Pachmayr-gripped long-slide nickel-plated .45.

Utter and complete shite. Even when 17 and reading all the Post-Apoc crap I could find, I knew it was embarassing dreck. It was a particularly fecund time for this subgenre so I had lots of other options. Even then, I don't think I read one that was worth a damn. The Postman by David Brin is literature by these standards, but everyone who thinks the film is dumb seems to have forgotten the genetically-engineered super-soldier Holnists in the book.

There's also a highly-enjoyable shlock series (dunno how it holds up, I read it back when I thought Clancy wasn't too bad) about a bunch of civil-war US soldiers who get transported to a world filled with giant talking monkeys who eat people (as part of an organised sacrifice). It actually ends after 8 books, and yes, we win. This sort of time-rift future tech meeting old tech in the hands of evil is a sub-genre in itself. Even Harry Harrison got into it with his variation of the arming the CSA (A Rebel In Time) so they win (he has Sten guns instead of AKs in Turtledove's version, Guns of the South).

[scharmers]

The Systemic Shock series by Dean Ing is good ol' fashioned, 80's-style survivalist stuff.


after reading Ralph Peters' Red Army, which presented a conventional WW3 from the Soviet perspective

Ralph Peters was the George Orwell of 80's technothrillers - everything in his books is always worst-case, depressing depressing stuff. But very good.

[DivDevlin]

There's also a highly-enjoyable shlock series (dunno how it holds up, I read it back when I thought Clancy wasn't too bad) about a bunch of civil-war US soldiers who get transported to a world filled with giant talking monkeys who eat people (as part of an organised sacrifice). It actually ends after 8 books, and yes, we win. This sort of time-rift future tech meeting old tech in the hands of evil is a sub-genre in itself. Even Harry Harrison got into it with his variation of the arming the CSA (A Rebel In Time) so they win (he has Sten guns instead of AKs in Turtledove's version, Guns of the South).

That was "The Lost Regiment."
They werent Monkies, they were "The Horde!"

Come on, it had everything.

The Bermuda Triangle; A Crusty Sgt., Romans, Vikings, Communists, Blimps, Iron Clads, Railroads, and meat-eating monsters! How could you not enjoy all that cheese!

[John Merva]

The Bermuda Triangle; A Crusty Sgt., Romans, Vikings, Communists, Blimps, Iron Clads, Railroads, and meat-eating monsters! How could you not enjoy all that cheese!

When there are about four hundred books in the series.

[Enduro_Man]

I picked up Red Rabbit in paperback, and that's the last Clancy book I buy ever. I find it amazing how one can write an entire spy novel with tension and build up, only to have absolutely nothing happen.

I was about to say the same thing. Red Rabbit killed any goodwill I had left for Tom Clancy. I mean, what was the whole point of tracing the Soviet defector's utterly uneventful flight to the west? (Oh no... border guards! Phew, good thing they're easily bribed. Yeesh.) As for the CIA twigging onto the KGB plot against the Pope... Day of the Jackal it was not. Pointless.


Ralph Peters was the George Orwell of 80's technothrillers - everything in his books is always worst-case, depressing depressing stuff. But very good.

That's what was so weird about Red Army. The Soviets actually do roll over NATO and into western Europe, yet they seem to be no happier than the Japanese in the Pearl Harbor movie. ("Attack successful... sleeping giant roused... SIGH.") I know the Russians can be a morose bunch, but as Margaret Thatcher said over the Falklands, "Rejoice, rejoice!"

[ydejin]

That was "The Lost Regiment."
They werent Monkies, they were "The Horde!"

Come on, it had everything.

The Bermuda Triangle; A Crusty Sgt., Romans, Vikings, Communists, Blimps, Iron Clads, Railroads, and meat-eating monsters! How could you not enjoy all that cheese!

I'll put in another vote for The Lost Regiment. It was a great series.

[Alan Dunkin]

That's what was so weird about Red Army. The Soviets actually do roll over NATO and into western Europe, yet they seem to be no happier than the Japanese in the Pearl Harbor movie. ("Attack successful... sleeping giant roused... SIGH.") I know the Russians can be a morose bunch, but as Margaret Thatcher said over the Falklands, "Rejoice, rejoice!"

From what I remember the Soviets did that pretty much, than they rocked by the US reinforcements and maybe (not sure) called it quits.

--- Alan

[XPav]

There's also a highly-enjoyable shlock series (dunno how it holds up, I read it back when I thought Clancy wasn't too bad) about a bunch of civil-war US soldiers who get transported to a world filled with giant talking monkeys who eat people (as part of an organised sacrifice). It actually ends after 8 books, and yes, we win.

He wrote one book in the sequel series... yes... where in the SOUTHERN part of the world, there is YET ANOTHER SET OF HUMAN EATING MONSTERS, but this time, they have human lackeys.

The first book ended when the plucky humans Pearl-Harbored the monster's battleship fleet with their brand new aircraft carriers.

I still have that series, but it's on my list of books that will be retired during the next great clean. You can only read so many scenes in your life where the Horde eats people's brains.

[Enduro_Man]

Even Harry Harrison got into it with his variation of the arming the CSA (A Rebel In Time) so they win (he has Sten guns instead of AKs in Turtledove's version, Guns of the South).

I know we're veering away from the original topic, but then again, DivDevlin's already got his answer...

I loved Guns of the South, but that's the limit of my exposure to Harry Turtledove. Were I to read another Turtledove story, what should I pick? Would I need to commit to a multi-part series, or does he have other good standalone novels?

[scharmers]

Were I to read another Turtledove story, what should I pick? Would I need to commit to a multi-part series, or does he have other good standalone novels?

I've got about two shelves full of Turtledove books, so I'm probably not the most neutral of critics here. Pick a series or single book, and plug away. Then tend to all read the same :)

S.M. Serling is another good alt-history guy. Avoid his Drakkon series though, unless you like in-depth descriptions of rape, impalement, lesbian foot masturbating scenes, and melted-fat- pooling-under-burning-tanks kind of stuff. He grew up after these books, I think, or got laid, or something.

[Mind Elemental]

Turtledove is seriously mixed in quality. Used to be my favourite author, and I still have the shelf still of books to prove it. The first book in the "Settling Accounts" series gave me a really nice Hearts of Iron vibe when I read it, and I seem to remember his Videssos novels were also pretty good. If you can find it, I'd also recommend his short story collection Kaleidoscope (available in the omnibus 3xT), for a really funny Conan parody.

[ydejin]

S.M. Serling is another good alt-history guy. Avoid his Drakkon series though, unless you like in-depth descriptions of rape, impalement, lesbian foot masturbating scenes, and melted-fat- pooling-under-burning-tanks kind of stuff. He grew up after these books, I think, or got laid, or something.

Sterling's got some serious issues. Some of them still show in his Island in the Sea of Time, which is mostly good. I couldn't get through Drakkon. Nun-raping was just a bit too much for me.

[Alan Dunkin]

Wow I didn't think the Drakon stuff was all that bad, I guess I either just passed over much of the rape (of course there was all kinds of slave stuff going on) or were just too used to Japanese porn or something.

It started to get fairly weird when the near-future Drakon were basically immortal demigods and were still involved in a slow-paced near-interstellar war with the remaining humans who had fled to Alpha Centauri following The Stone Dogs. That and Sterling pretty much wrecked the only real sympathetic Drakon character in the interim.

--- Alan

[John Sansker]

I remember a whole series of books from the 80's about the aftermath of WW3 and a group of people that travel around getting into abandoned military bunkers, fighting off mutants, gangs of theives and whatnot. The thing that set the series apart was that the author had a real love for guns, describing each gun in the story with almost loving detail, and the two main characters (both guys) were always looking to find new and more impressive firepower. The whole thing was a pretty massive series if I recall, with at least 8 or 10 books.


Sounds like The Survivalist series. The writer had a hard-on for Pachmayr grips and must have had a macro for the gun descriptions. The series went completely bananas by the end, even by its own very low standards. Cryogenic chambers and donating his girlfriend to his son while he gets his original wife back, and freezing the girlfriend until his son is old enough to use her as responsibly as his Pachmayr-gripped long-slide nickel-plated .45.

Utter and complete shite. Even when 17 and reading all the Post-Apoc crap I could find, I knew it was embarassing dreck. It was a particularly fecund time for this subgenre so I had lots of other options. Even then, I don't think I read one that was worth a damn. The Postman by David Brin is literature by these standards, but everyone who thinks the film is dumb seems to have forgotten the genetically-engineered super-soldier Holnists in the book.

There's also a highly-enjoyable shlock series (dunno how it holds up, I read it back when I thought Clancy wasn't too bad) about a bunch of civil-war US soldiers who get transported to a world filled with giant talking monkeys who eat people (as part of an organised sacrifice). It actually ends after 8 books, and yes, we win. This sort of time-rift future tech meeting old tech in the hands of evil is a sub-genre in itself. Even Harry Harrison got into it with his variation of the arming the CSA (A Rebel In Time) so they win (he has Sten guns instead of AKs in Turtledove's version, Guns of the South).

Could be the Deathlands series by James Axler.
He's up to 30 some books and still writing.