WOW honour smackdown!

[TheTrunkDr]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=55975614&sid=1

30% honour gain reduction, enjoy.

[Stroker Ace]

Bummer. I spent a week getting 13k honor (for my rank 13 epic shoulders) from AB while some guy on my realm forums brags about getting his 22k HWL weapons from 5 hours of AFKing through AV. They need to rebalance honor, not nerf it.

[Skipper]

Oh well. It was fun while it lasted. At least they didn't up the costs.

[Jason Cross]

That really sucks. This is because those raid guilds joining AB as a group were able to 5-cap steamroll pick-up groups all day long for big honor, and snag all the PvP gear they want in a week.

Meanwhile guys like me and most of the rest of the regular BGers, who play in PUGs, played few a couple hours a day all week and don't even have 20K honor for our leggings or chest pieces.

If they had turned off "join as goup" in the first place, everyone would be in a PUG and you wouldn't have as many groups blazing through getting big honor bonuses.

Also, this is going to screw up the token stacks even worse. Already you get tokens faster than the equivalent amount of honor (for purchasing), so when you finally get 19K honor to buy those leggings you have loads of tokens left over. With a stack limit of 100 and 30% less honor, you're going to hit your token stack limit that much more easily.

[LesJarvis]

Also, this is going to screw up the token stacks even worse. Already you get tokens faster than the equivalent amount of honor (for purchasing), so when you finally get 19K honor to buy those leggings you have loads of tokens left over. With a stack limit of 100 and 30% less honor, you're going to hit your token stack limit that much more easily.

It kind of irks me that they removed the ability to trade in tokens for honor and rep. As you say, you end up with tons of excess tokens that have no value, and this will make it even worse. Being able to turn in three for, say, 100 honor and rep, would have been a nice way to make use of them.

[Charles]

You don't need rep anymore though. So why would you want it?

[LesJarvis]

You don't need rep anymore though. So why would you want it?

Yeah, I guess that's true, unless you were right on the cusp of getting exalted, and wanted to complete the AB set or whatever. Still, pretty pointless now, as you say. Would be nice to be able to at least get some honor from them, though.

[Ranulf]

1. Yeah, they should have kept in the turn ins for rep/honor.
2. If they dropped "join as a group" from ab/wsg I'd stop playing. Playing with a group is fun, especially with teamspeak. Pugs are often pure hell.

[LesJarvis]

2. If they dropped "join as a group" from ab/wsg I'd stop playing. Playing with a group is fun, especially with teamspeak. Pugs are often pure hell.

While I don't think "join as group" should be dropped by any means, the ability to join a seperate queue for individuals where you would be guaranteed not come up against an organized group would be nice. It could just end up making the queue times worse, though, so maybe it's not the best idea.

[TheTrunkDr]

Yeah, forcing everyone to pug isn't a very good solution. A better solution is to get your own group going which is already an option available to everyone. Regardless of gear an organized group will almost always do better than a random selection of players.

[Backov]

Wow. Incredibly moronic. It was bad enough as is, now it's entirely pointless. By the time you gear up, TBC greens will be better and available. Nice move Blizz.

[Gordon Cameron]

I guess I will stop at my Unstoppable Force and maybe grab a Don Julio's band or something. After a few intoxicating AV wins I entertained mad visions of saving up for the HWL 2 hander, but this has effectively killed that thought. In a way I'm glad I don't have to agonize about it anymore.

[Adam B]

AV wins? What are those?

Stupid horde in my battlegroup are *so* bad at AV =(

[Gordon Cameron]

AV wins? What are those?

Stupid horde in my battlegroup are *so* bad at AV =(

Yeah, I was surprised when I went on a "crazy winning streak" of about 4/5 horde wins. Then it was back to usual, with the inevitable guy endlessly typing in raid chat "omg everyone here sucks" (except him, of course).

[Sebmolo]

Saying '10 to galv for D' before the gates open can often make the difference between a horde win and a loss, if people listen. People claim horde can rush van and win and I'm sure it happens, but I've never seen it.

As to the honour - not that surprised. It was too easy. But the main thing is the mechanic of being able to make consistent (if slow) progress towards a particular goal, the numbers don't matter that much.

[TheTrunkDr]

Wow. Incredibly moronic. It was bad enough as is, now it's entirely pointless. By the time you gear up, TBC greens will be better and available. Nice move Blizz.
Seeing how some people in my guild have already picked up two or three pieces (inlcuding weapons) I don't think this is as bad as you think. I don't think Blizzard ever intended for everyone people to go from 0 PvP gear to full sets including weapons by the time TBC launched. I think it was intended so catasses could do it but most people would only get an item a week or less. Even with the 30% people will be walking away with an epic for a week of casual PvP, or would you prefer the old grind?

[Gordon Cameron]

Saying '10 to galv for D' before the gates open can often make the difference between a horde win and a loss, if people listen. People claim horde can rush van and win and I'm sure it happens, but I've never seen it.

That has been exactly my experience.

[Sebmolo]

God, the whining on that thread- - the WHINING. i so don't see the issue - before it was the easiest epics in the history of ever, now they're just easy. BFD.

That being said, bad customer management skills - they should have been able to work it out before implementing it, reduced the honour gain in 2.0.1 and noone would have even noticed.

[LesJarvis]

God, the whining on that thread- - the WHINING. i so don't see the issue - before it was the easiest epics in the history of ever, now they're just easy. BFD.

That being said, bad customer management skills - they should have been able to work it out before implementing it, reduced the honour gain in 2.0.1 and noone would have even noticed.

Agree. WoW is like a case study in poor management of player expectations.

[DeepT]

I expected this to happen. I knew people who were playing 16 hour days and managed to get thier GM weapon and some armor. In the very first day (Wednesday) I knew people who already had 250+ AB tokens (150 in the mail box).

Of course these people were not that common, but it would not matter. It is the few who catass like crazy thats blizzard will look at, not the average player.

I do understand in the long run this is proabably a good thing, but it is very frustrating that you may have been PvPing for so long against people in tier 3 PvE epics and finally thought you could get on even footing fairly quickly.

In the beginning I was hoping to get my Pally epiced out before BC and then get some good gear for my Lock, but I am not sure Ill even max out my pally, let alone get anything for my lock.

[olaf]

Seeing how some people in my guild have already picked up two or three pieces (inlcuding weapons) I don't think this is as bad as you think. I don't think Blizzard ever intended for everyone people to go from 0 PvP gear to full sets including weapons by the time TBC launched. I think it was intended so catasses could do it but most people would only get an item a week or less. Even with the 30% people will be walking away with an epic for a week of casual PvP, or would you prefer the old grind?
Maybe they should do some testing then eh? Or listen to the testers that work for them for free?

It seems to me that everyone else saw what would happen a long time ago, except Blizzard. Did they truly have no idea the rate that people would be accumulating honor? Is it magic?

[SpoofyChop]

Agree. WoW is like a case study in poor management of player expectations.

What the heck are SWG, EQ2, and every other crappy game a case study in then?

O_o

[Skipper]

What the heck are SWG, EQ2, and every other crappy game a case study in then?

For any MMO Sony related they are a case study in some of the worst customer service for the amount of users. Oh and for swinging the biggest nerf/change bats in the park.

[LesJarvis]

What the heck are SWG, EQ2, and every other crappy game a case study in then?

O_o

Crappy game design?

[Backov]

God, the whining on that thread- - the WHINING. i so don't see the issue - before it was the easiest epics in the history of ever, now they're just easy. BFD.

What a surprise, one of the resident morons thinks it was too easy. Go clean the poopsocks out from under your desk, Grand Marshal.

As for being too easy. If you assume 1k honor per hour (which was about what I was getting pre-nerf), it would have taken ~150 hours to get the full set. That's too short?

Guild premades were of course getting a LOT more because they were steamrolling PUGs in AB and WSG constantly. So basically this was a nerf to the casual players once again.

[Stroker Ace]

The problem apparently is that 1k honor per hour was the plebe rate. Real men got full suits of epics by farming AB or something.

[TheTrunkDr]

Maybe they should do some testing then eh? Or listen to the testers that work for them for free?

It seems to me that everyone else saw what would happen a long time ago, except Blizzard. Did they truly have no idea the rate that people would be accumulating honor? Is it magic?
I completely agree and I've had nothing but bad things to say about Blizzard and their testing procedures since Diablo 2 but it's still insanely easy to get these items.

Quality control at Blizz has been dropping like a stone for a while, it really took a huge nose dive a patch or two before the WC3 expansion and has only gotten worse.

[mouselock]

For any MMO Sony related they are a case study in some of the worst customer service for the amount of users. Oh and for swinging the biggest nerf/change bats in the park.

This is pretty patently untrue for EQ2 at the least.

[Skipper]

This is pretty patently untrue for EQ2 at the least.

For EQ2 I only count the very short period of time when they thought WoW was not a threat in that comment. EQ and SW:G were the heyday though. Other than that, you're right, they have changed, but lets be honest as to why. An 800 pound gorilla taking your bananas will bring about organizational change in a big way. I'm impressed with the stuff of late, but at this point one MMO addiction is enough to not get me to renew my 4 month EQ2 membership.

[Sebmolo]

What a surprise, one of the resident morons thinks it was too easy. Go clean the poopsocks out from under your desk, Grand Marshal.

As for being too easy. If you assume 1k honor per hour (which was about what I was getting pre-nerf), it would have taken ~150 hours to get the full set. That's too short?

Guild premades were of course getting a LOT more because they were steamrolling PUGs in AB and WSG constantly. So basically this was a nerf to the casual players once again.

He swings! He misses! I'm the casuallest of casuals, buddy. I took 18 months to get my first sixty, have never raided and haven't even been into most of the end-game 5-mans.

Here's the insight which your sad but humorous borderline retardation is blinding you to - the time doesn't matter. What matters is that a casual can get there by playing when he or she wants, even if it takes ages.

[Mike Cathcart]

As for being too easy. If you assume 1k honor per hour (which was about what I was getting pre-nerf), it would have taken ~150 hours to get the full set. That's too short?

Guild premades were of course getting a LOT more because they were steamrolling PUGs in AB and WSG constantly. So basically this was a nerf to the casual players once again.
A) I can get more than 1k an hour in PUGs as a protection specced warrior in might gear and a sword I got in a Scholomance quest. Are you playing with the keyboard upside down?

B) OK, 150 hours for the full set, but it's not like you play 150 hours and then get everything at once. You can pick each piece after a reasonable amount of play time. By reasonable I mean about the amount of time you'd spend raiding for raid gear. Well, assuming you didn't join a guild that had BWL on farm and just walked you through it letting you take whatever you want, but rather that you formed a new raiding group and learned each encounter getting rewards along the way.

Anyway, whatever. It's still possible for someone who can't (or doesn't want to) do the raiding thing to get some nice gear. It takes a while, but so do all of the other ways of getting purples. At least now you don't have honor decay so you can play on your own time and save up for a reward. Even with this nerf it's is still eight billion times better than the old system.

[Backov]

I'm level 59. I was staying at 59 to avoid getting constantly rolled by premades in AB and WSG. I got the tokens so now I was just about to go to 60. From what I've read that would've upped me to about 1200-1500 per hour. But I'm done. I play too much of this damn game as it is, I'm not about to do 30% more grinding for quickly obsoleted gear.

Only MMO players would think a 150 hour grind was "too easy"

EDIT: For clarity to the morons reading. I'm done grinding pvp.

[Sebmolo]

I'm level 59. I was staying at 59 to avoid getting constantly rolled by premades in AB and WSG. I got the tokens so now I was just about to go to 60. From what I've read that would've upped me to about 1200-1500 per hour. But I'm done. I play too much of this damn game as it is, I'm not about to do 30% more grinding for quickly obsoleted gear.

Only MMO players would think a 150 hour grind was "too easy"

Can I have your stuff?

[Mike Cathcart]

Well I don't think it's too easy and I also don't think it'll take 150 hours. And HWL gear will not be quickly obsoleted. I've been doing comparisons between rank 14 weapons and the stuff on Thottbot from the beta. So far the daggers, 1h sword, and staff are all solid when compared to TBC gear up till the mid to high 60s. That's a pretty good run for a weapon.

[Backov]

Can I have your stuff?

Yes, come and get it.

[Sebmolo]

EDIT: For clarity to the morons reading. I'm done grinding pvp.

So, assuming Blizz were worried about the load on the BG servers (which they probably were) and assuming you're a good representative of the mouth-breathing denture-polish-spitting epeen fanatics (which you certainly are), then the BG population is going to drop sharply. Win-win, I guess!

[Gordon Cameron]

I breathed out of my mouth all weekend.

Had a bad cold.

[Backov]

So, assuming Blizz were worried about the load on the BG servers (which they probably were) and assuming you're a good representative of the mouth-breathing denture-polish-spitting epeen fanatics (which you certainly are), then the BG population is going to drop sharply. Win-win, I guess!

You really are this dumb aren't you? Amazing.

[Sebmolo]

Don't stop there, dude, you've got me on the ropes! Keep on punching!!!

(So glad I took Backov off /ignore)

[Backov]

Please, put me back on.

[Sebmolo]

Your misery pleases us. REQUEST DENIED.

[Adam B]

The flaming here is so much better than on the WoW official boards. It's so much more personal.

(Yes, I know, they're a waste of my time. But there's good nuggets of signal in that sea of noise if you know where to look.)

[Gordon Cameron]

The flaming here is so much better than on the WoW official boards. It's so much more personal.

(Yes, I know, they're a waste of my time. But there's good nuggets of signal in that sea of noise if you know where to look.)

QQ noob l2play kthxbye

[Sebmolo]

Backov - PMing me a web bug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_bug)to get my IP does not make you a cool Neo-esque hacker who's probably really good at kung fu (if he only tried). It makes you a fat, creepy stalk-nerd. But don't let me stop you living the dream.

[Backov]

ignored.

[Sebmolo]

HK: v Private

[Michael Fortson]

This board has an ignore feature? :P

[Jason Cross]

Yeah, forcing everyone to pug isn't a very good solution. A better solution is to get your own group going which is already an option available to everyone. Regardless of gear an organized group will almost always do better than a random selection of players.

While that is true, the fact of the matter is that PvP is basically the only real end-game option for those that don't have the time to participate in organized raids and the like. No guild of 60s wants a player like me because I can't raid AQ with them or whatever twice a week.

Finding a group that can fill up AB is hard when your want ad is like this: "level 60 character seeks other level 60 characters to hit the battlegrounds a lot together. Doesn't have any raid gear."

And even if you get that group together, you're up against other groups that are full of tier 1 and 2 armor and can totally steamroll you. Because they ARE end-game raid guilds and they're just doing BGs for a few weeks for fun to fill in gaps in their epic armor sets.

Obviously, disabling the join as group button is not the optimal solution. The optimal solution is to analyze the gear of the group and stack them up against other groups (PUG or premade) that have a similar overall power. The next best thing is to have those that join as a group only play against others that join as a group. Disabling JAG altogether is not the best solution, it's merely the easiest and probably a good idea until they can make one of the other two work.

Right now it just creates this disparity where premade groups in raid gear get all the honor, the other team gets exactly ZERO and suffers equipment breakage. Not only that, but the uber-team gets all the honor very, very quickly. Which results in Blizzard noticing that people are getting PvP rewards "too quickly" and nerfing honor.

You can't point to the disadvantaged side of PvP and say "well just don't be disadvantaged!" In a competitive environment, you have to make it fair for the lowest common denominator, and that's the PUG. Now, there are ways to make it fair for them and still not make the game suck for premade groups in tier 2 gear (noted above), and that should be the goal. But you gotta start with "fair for everyone."

[markv]

I look at it like this. The honor nerf was needed, because you could do nothing and still rake in 17.5k honor in a day. Literally, nothing. Infact, I did that on sunday to see how much I could get by doing nothing. The honor was flowing way too fast for the current price level, and no matter the fix that was done, you are still going to see an excess of tokens happening.

A token fix needs to be put in to place where you can hand them in for 5 or 10 honor for a stack of 3, and a greater hand in for more. This needs to return, and hopefully blizzard sees this. Excess tokens are going to become more and more of an issue as time goes on.

Now the talk about being rolled by people in T1 and T2 gear while you are running in blues. Getting a premade together that isn't guild specific is easy, if you bother to take the time to get a PvP community established on your server.

On Lightbringer there is a PvP community that was created when the honor system first came out to help people hit HWL/GM status. This community has flourished since then, and is accessible by everyone, people in blues/greens, people decked in T3, etc etc. You see all sorts of people PvPing in this group, and people have learned the strategies to win.

This group of people I am talking about have faced FULL T3 premades and beat them. It hasn't been easy, but it's doable if you focus on key features. Gear is not a big of a factor in PvP as skill/teamwork is. Knowing who to hit, what to hit, when to hit it etc. Crowd control = your friend. People need to learn not to touch the CC'd people. Communication = king. Now if you run into a group of people in HWL/T2/T3 gear that PvP a lot, you're screwed, but that's not all that common of an occurance.

I know people will cry 'but it'll take me 150 hours to get my stuff!'. This is an MMORPG, which is based on time sinks to keep you involved. 150 hours to get all of your HWL gear is a pretty reasonable time. If you want to get things like full T2 you are looking at far more than 150 hours to get it all because you need to progress through the lower instances first to get the gear to get the better gear, and so on and so on. With PvP you don't have any pre-req zones to raid. You can jump in and start getting your gear now. The Risk vs Reward = nothing. Your repair costs are pretty much non-existant compared to people who raid.

You guys who are just coming in to the PvP scene now should be thankful you don't have to do the HWL grind to get the best stuff. That is a horrible grind that I couldn't even complete, and I had a lot of free time when I was going for it. It was a huge burnout fest. Easier than raiding overall, but I was trying to raid while PvP at the same time, didn't work too well.

[Jakub]

I can't believe anyone is whining about this.

Do any of you fucking remember what it took to get PvP purples BEFORE the patch? Fuck. Get some perspective you PMSy bitches.

[Gordon Cameron]

Yeah, but I don't think "at least it's not a horrific, soul crushing grind" is a great yardstick by which to judge a design decision.

[Mark Asher]

The worst thing about it is that it's a huge PR flop. You just don't give some candy to the whiniest group of gamers going and then take away a third of the candy. Probably would have been better to cut honor gain by a slight amount, or not at all, and then adjust the price of the level 70 honor rewards to reflect the time expense Blizzard wanted.

The players who will get full sets of PvP gear before TBC comes out will also be level 70 and no longer wearing that gear one month after TBC comes out.

Blizzard might also think of instituting an honor gain system that works a bit like the rested XP system. Maybe cut honor gain by a certain percentage each week after a set number of points has been accumulated.

[Sebmolo]

Yes - it was a PR atrocity, no arguments there. But for me, getting this (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38117) after three weeks (say) of regular but low key pvp sounds great. To be clear - there is no way I would ever have got a purple like that before. No way. Grinding to exalted for the vastly inferior Lobotomizer took about that long.

Jason - you know you don't get gear damage from pvp kills? Also they will be implementing gear matching, which should (might? will hopefully?) help the mismatches.

Edit: fixed exalted dagger reward

[Sebmolo]

Also, I've noted that mismatched Ab games can actually be pretty fun if you just sit at the Mill and have a massive pitched brawl. Even a monster team normally can't five cap you then, and you get a bunch of hks from the fight, then can requeue when it's over - which doesn't take long.

Still not ideal, but as a hordie I'm hesitant about complaining about AB, since horde PUGs seem to always beat alliance PUGSs.

[Adam B]

I've found that horde pugs generally wipe the floor with alliance pugs in AB and WSG, while the opposite is true in AV. Any number of reasons why could be speculated, but I'm personally convinced that the median skill level on the Alliance is generally lower than that of the Horde. It certainly seemed that way during my short-lived Alliance career, anyway.

[Backov]

Ya, I'd agree with that. There's always exceptions of course, but my limited amount of play on the alliance side convinced me that the fucktards mostly choose alliance.

[Sebmolo]

I've found that horde pugs generally wipe the floor with alliance pugs in AB and WSG, while the opposite is true in AV. Any number of reasons why could be speculated, but I'm personally convinced that the median skill level on the Alliance is generally lower than that of the Horde. It certainly seemed that way during my short-lived Alliance career, anyway.

I think it's partly psychological - the same way some quirks of terrain in AV have turned into 'just let them win', I think the Horde's reputation gives it the edge when there's not a huge gear disparity. I would like to believe my horde compatriots are wiser and more mature than the filthy alliance, but my bullshitometer won't let me :-/

[Erik Andersson]

Obviously, disabling the join as group button is not the optimal solution. The optimal solution is to analyze the gear of the group and stack them up against other groups (PUG or premade) that have a similar overall power. The next best thing is to have those that join as a group only play against others that join as a group. Disabling JAG altogether is not the best solution, it's merely the easiest and probably a good idea until they can make one of the other two work.

Disabling JAG will probably not do as much as you think, even though there is no JAG for AV I've still played a few guild AV:s, and I know lots of others have done the same. The number of the game you will join is no secret after all.

[Qmanol]

The players who will get full sets of PvP gear before TBC comes out will also be level 70 and no longer wearing that gear one month after TBC comes out.

And this is the point. There is no reason to limit these things that much when it'll all get replaced halfway into TBC. Which is in 4 weeks. Which means that these things HAVE TO be easy to get to be meaningful, as once TBC is out, you're better off leveling instead of PvP grinding.

[Adam B]

I think it's partly psychological - the same way some quirks of terrain in AV have turned into 'just let them win', I think the Horde's reputation gives it the edge when there's not a huge gear disparity. I would like to believe my horde compatriots are wiser and more mature than the filthy alliance, but my bullshitometer won't let me :-/

I agree with your point as well, but I think that there's also a valid point of view that there are more "kiddies" and people who don't make any effort to be good players on the Alliance.

[RobotPants]

I look at it like this. The honor nerf was needed, because you could do nothing and still rake in 17.5k honor in a day. Literally, nothing. Infact, I did that on sunday to see how much I could get by doing nothing. The honor was flowing way too fast for the current price level, and no matter the fix that was done, you are still going to see an excess of tokens happening.

Um, you are in no way a typical player. I played for a good chunk of the weekend and only ended up with 5,000 or so.

Anyway, I really like the change to the system. I thought it would help get me geared up for the expansion, but it's not looking so good anymore. I thought I would be able to earn enough between now and mid-January to get a weapon and some pieces of armor, but I don't think that'll happen with this new increase. It's a shame. I thought Bliz were actually trying to normalize gear to actually make PvP more fun. Waiting in the queues to get rolled by epiced-out premade groups is in no way enjoyable.

[Jason Cross]

I look at it like this. The honor nerf was needed, because you could do nothing and still rake in 17.5k honor in a day. Literally, nothing. Infact, I did that on sunday to see how much I could get by doing nothing.

Let's see... used to get 350 honor per AV match (the one you can most safely just sit there AFK in), if your side won. That would take 20 minutes on a pretty fast, but not unreasonably so, match.

That's fifty AV matches to get 17.5K honor, at 20 minutes each it's 16.67 hours.

So yeah, you can get 17.5K honor in a day "doing nothing at all" if you're one of those asses that sits in the entrance cave all match, and every 20 minutes or so you just queue back up for the BG again, for almost 17 hours. Sure.

Maybe 8.5-10 hours if you do that in AB on a weekend when it's AB bonus honor, and your team wins most of the matches and does so in a short 10 minutes. But you're an even bigger ass if you just sit at the entrance AFK in AB, where the smaller teams really need everyone to participate actively.


Jason - you know you don't get gear damage from pvp kills?

Really? Tell that to my gear that has been getting very much damaged, constantly. And not just in AV where there are NPCs, but in WSG and AB where there are no ways to die except other players, too (I have 37 WSG marks and 69 AB marks now).

Anyway, I love the new honor system. And I agree that 30% less honor is probably a better balance - you'll still get one very nice piece of equipment after 1 week of "few hours a day" grinding, 2 weeks tops. But the whole thing arguing that premades against PUGs isn't a problem, or tier 2 raid gear guys against PUGs in blues, is BS. Sure tactics helps. I've gotten lucky and played against idiot premades and barely scratched out a victory. But you gotta count on the premade - who plays together regularly - having their heads up their asses. Most don't. All other things being equal, the sides are as horribly mismatched as if you let level 45s play against level 59s.

[Backov]

I can't believe anyone is whining about this.

Do any of you fucking remember what it took to get PvP purples BEFORE the patch? Fuck. Get some perspective you PMSy bitches.

You posted this exact quote on the wow forums didn;t you? I recognize it.

[Gordon Cameron]

I have had to repair after AVing on my warrior, though obviously not at anywhere *near* the expense there would be if the 10% durability reduction per death (as is the case in pve) obtained. I assume it's damage sustained not from dying, but from being beaten on. If there's another explanation I don't know what it is. However, I have only done AV on my warrior, where theoretically the damage could be explained by hits taken from NPCs. Especially in my case as I tank the elites a lot. Not sure how this matches up with Jason's experience as a priest (?).

[deccan]

Getting hit by other players definitely does cause durability loss but it's pretty insignificant.

[Athryn]

And this is the point. There is no reason to limit these things that much when it'll all get replaced halfway into TBC. Which is in 4 weeks. Which means that these things HAVE TO be easy to get to be meaningful, as once TBC is out, you're better off leveling instead of PvP grinding.

There's a whole other set of PvP armor for level 70s as well though.

Even though the stuff will get replaced as you level, it's still nice to have some nice equipment for leveling, it does make the job easier.

[Sebmolo]

I have had to repair after AVing on my warrior, though obviously not at anywhere *near* the expense there would be if the 10% durability reduction per death (as is the case in pve) obtained. I assume it's damage sustained not from dying, but from being beaten on. If there's another explanation I don't know what it is. However, I have only done AV on my warrior, where theoretically the damage could be explained by hits taken from NPCs. Especially in my case as I tank the elites a lot. Not sure how this matches up with Jason's experience as a priest (?).

Ah, my mistake - it's the 10% durability loss I was thinking of, which you don't get in pvp deaths. You do get damaged.

Just had a kickass AV win - we lost galv to the zerg pretty quick but fell back in good order to IB and FW, headed off a bunch of ninja assaults on the RH, ground our way through SP and took down van the man. Def def'd, off off'd, damn it was fun. Sooooo many pallies, seemed like half the opposition were wearing a bubble at one point.

[MikeOberly]

I've found that horde pugs generally wipe the floor with alliance pugs in AB and WSG, while the opposite is true in AV. Any number of reasons why could be speculated, but I'm personally convinced that the median skill level on the Alliance is generally lower than that of the Horde. It certainly seemed that way during my short-lived Alliance career, anyway.

The main reason Alliance rolls AV is because the layout hugely favors the Alliance. Reverse the bases and watch the Alliance lose horribly. As Horde, I've lost 24 straight AVs the last few days, and most of them weren't even close. Ever run AV as an Alliance? It's a walkover.

AB does seem to favor the Horde, and I'm not sure why -- perhaps it's a little easier to get to nodes from the starting area?

[markv]

Normal wear and tear damage is taken on your gear in PvP, however there is no durability hit when dying. This needs to be in place or there is really zero risk for PvPing and what's the point of ever doing anything else, since you spend no money ever, nor any costs for what you are doing to upgrade.

AB doesn't favour the horde any more than it does the Alliance. The reason Horde pugs > Alliance pugs is because Horde have been so used to being outnumbered / out geared on the servers that they tend to have to learn to pick up their game at a faster pace. As such working as a team is vital and they tend to communicate a lot more. I was talking to a guy on my old server who used to play Alliance as well (PvPing non-stop doing the grind to General) and he said when he was pugging it the difference between Alliance and Horde pugs were huge in regards to communication and general team work.

Now for my 17.5k in a day, it was done to see just how much I could get in a day SOLO going at the same pace as I had to for the HWL gear. 17.5k in 1 day going at that pace was a far too extreme for solo, and it would be even worse in a premade rolling pugs in the minimum time frame for those BGs. You might try and call bullshit that a HWL/GM grind pace would require 14 to 16 hours on the weekend, but depending on the server you're on that is exactly how much time you had to invest on a Saturday and Sunday if you wanted to ensure rank 1 for the week. (FYI, I did my 17.5k in 14 hours, but that's because for about 60% of the games I was busy fighting to snag extra honor from kills)

The changes have been awesome so far, and the toning down by 30% was needed. But again, they need to return a way to shed your excess tokens by turning them in for honor like you could before. Doing this should help the mailbox spam, as well as help people build up honor a bit faster, but not at an unreasonable pace, and won't make the tokens go to waste.

PS - and before you start calling me a fucking no life loser, the only reason I had this kind of time is the joy of being off of work on ltd because of cancer. plus when it's -40c outside in the winter i'm really not a keener to go out and freeze my ass off.

[DeepT]

Uhh.. that is your server dude.

On my server the horde always won AV until cross realms battlegrounds. Even last week when the cross realms servers went down and we went back to server only BGs, the horde won every match AV.

As for AB, alliance tends to win that more, but I do not think the battle field is unbalanced, just the classes. In think is smaller, close quarters battles Pallys > Shaman.

WSG on our server normally goes with the horde though. Druids + Shaman = winning combo for flag running.

[Stroker Ace]

WSG on our server normally goes with the horde though. Druids + Shaman = winning combo for flag running.Heh I thought it was Paladins... Blessing of Freedom vs. the snare totem I guess :P

[Mark Asher]

And this is the point. There is no reason to limit these things that much when it'll all get replaced halfway into TBC. Which is in 4 weeks. Which means that these things HAVE TO be easy to get to be meaningful, as once TBC is out, you're better off leveling instead of PvP grinding.

I agree, but I understand Blizzard’s POV also, even if I don’t fully agree with it. If you let players get a full set of rank 14 gear before the expansion comes out, that renders nearly all of the loot rewards until you hit the mid to late 60’s meaningless.

I do think they should have just lowered it a bit – say 5% instead of 30%. People wouldn’t have bitched too much about that. Just readjust the honor required for the level 70 PvP rewards to better reflect the time Blizzard thinks it should take players to get that stuff.

It’s still a better reward system than they previously had. I don’t like it for the idea of getting a full set, but rather for the chance to pick up a piece here and there that replaces the weaker parts of my gear.

It also adds some spice to the PvP servers. Now kills out in the wild give you some honor in the bank.

[olaf]

A better idea would have been a hard or soft cap on honor per day.

Realistically your average wow player is not pulling 1k honor/hour...I dont think. But you have T3 geared premades rolling around cheesing queues that are pulling 2K+/hour. Thats the problem IMO.

Either way, test this shit first? If the rate of honor gain was too fast...how did you not know it was going to be too fast? Do they just pick values out of a hat?

[HRose]

Normal wear and tear damage is taken on your gear in PvP, however there is no durability hit when dying. This needs to be in place or there is really zero risk for PvPing and what's the point of ever doing anything else, since you spend no money ever, nor any costs for what you are doing to upgrade.
Your point is silly.

Yeah, you don't spend much if you just do PvP beside the usual repairs and reagents.

But, hey, you also don't gain anything at all.

I think it's a good balance ;p

[Jakub]

You posted this exact quote on the wow forums didn;t you? I recognize it.
I've only posted once on the WoW forums, and that wasn't it.

I find that MMO forums are filled with whiners whose negativity affects my enjoyment. Back in WoW beta, I got depressed about my warrior and all the perceived nerfs, so I never played WoW at launch. Turns out, warriors are pretty kickin' nowadays.

[Jakub]

The main reason Alliance rolls AV is because the layout hugely favors the Alliance. Reverse the bases and watch the Alliance lose horribly. As Horde, I've lost 24 straight AVs the last few days, and most of them weren't even close. Ever run AV as an Alliance? It's a walkover.

AB does seem to favor the Horde, and I'm not sure why -- perhaps it's a little easier to get to nodes from the starting area?
Horde get to pull the boss in AV without aggroing nearby mobs, don't they?

[Gordon Cameron]

Horde get to pull the boss in AV without aggroing nearby mobs, don't they?

That can be done, though I have not seen it on the Horde AVs I've been in. Perhaps more from lack of knowledge/coordination than moral rectitude. I did see some guy on raid chat say "use the bug to pull only Van" one time, but we never got far enough for it to matter, and I don't know if anybody listened to him.

[Sebmolo]

There's one thing you have to realize here. You can talk tactics and strategy all you want, but in the end it boils down to one fact: 3/4 of all players, whether they're Horde or Alliance, don't think tactically at all. They just run straight forward until they see some enemy, and then they try to kill them.

Horde takes Stonehearth quickly while the Alliance is messing about with Galv and Iceblood Tower. Alliance who die on the front lines res at Stormpike, run foward, and run into the Horde front line. They attack, die, and res at Stormpike again... and all of a sudden, you've got a heavy Alliance defense of Stormpike. This isn't a deliberate strategy, notice no brains were used, it just *happens*.

Horde, on the other hand, charges forward, and when they die, they res at Iceblood. It's just a little hop off the ledge, and they're back at the front lines again. Eventually Stonehearth caps (usually before Iceblood is taken), and they start ressing there, with a free run up to the front lines. Presto, Horde has a 40-man offense. This isn't a deliberate strategy, no brains were used, it just *happens*.

Once Iceblood is taken, the Alliance force is usually at Frostwolf, out of the way of Horde moving north from their tunnel. So Horde can usually keep running forward to offense if they like. Alliance, on the other hand, has no way past the Horde attack on Stormpike. Except for going under the bridge and past the pond, which 3/4 of them are too stupid to do.

So, the layout of the midfield means that, if no brains are used on either side, Horde will end up with a 40-man offense, and Alliance with a strong defense. Unless Alliance ends up with 30 or more on D (which does happen), this is a guaranteed win for Alliance, since a 20-man defense can hold a 40-man offense forever.


Key to the Horde, on this analysis, is breaking up the alliance zerg at the start. If they're not a rolling unstoppable deathmob, they're much less dangerous.

[Sebmolo]

I do think they should have just lowered it a bit – say 5% instead of 30%. People wouldn’t have bitched too much about that.

It's cute that you think that.

[Athryn]

Heh I thought it was Paladins... Blessing of Freedom vs. the snare totem I guess :P


Paladin, meet dispel magic. I use that on my horde priest all the time in WSG on paladins. It's quite amusing to see that paladin's reaction when he figures out his easy escape is suddenly missing.


And for people saying that various BGs favor sides, it's really a mental thing more than anything else. I've found that certain bg clusters have people that are more defeatists, which is why I moved my characters over to whatever cluster moonrunner/greymane is on, because it's pretty much a 50/50 split in any battleground.

[Sebmolo]

Horde invariably love killing pallies, so crunchy, so delicious.

[Mark Asher]

Horde invariably love killing pallies, so crunchy, so delicious.

Yeah, because they are SO annoying. You have to kill them three times before they die.

They are hitting hard in the BC beta, though. They used to be these weird things you couldn't kill but then couldn't kill you in return. Now they have decent DPS.

[Backov]

In the current patch too.. I dunno what the hell they are doing, but in the BGs I've had pallies hit me for ~900 damage at 20 yards. Not to mention it seems like they have several ranged stuns now.

[Qmanol]

There's a whole other set of PvP armor for level 70s as well though.

Even though the stuff will get replaced as you level, it's still nice to have some nice equipment for leveling, it does make the job easier.

Is there? The only level 70 stuff I've seen is a few rings and the Arena gear. Anyway, Blizz have said they'll drop the honor cost of the PvP items when BC comes out, so maybe that would have been a better time to do this change?

And as countless people have suggested already, a daily honor cap would have been a much better solution to this sort of thing.

[Gourmand]

Paladin, meet dispel magic. I use that on my horde priest all the time in WSG on paladins. It's quite amusing to see that paladin's reaction when he figures out his easy escape is suddenly missing.


And for people saying that various BGs favor sides, it's really a mental thing more than anything else. I've found that certain bg clusters have people that are more defeatists, which is why I moved my characters over to whatever cluster moonrunner/greymane is on, because it's pretty much a 50/50 split in any battleground.
Any class can wand/attack a totem (conveniently, with /target totem, /use wand macro's too!)

Two classes can dispel BoF, and BoF can get burried beneath a myriad of other trivial buffs. Hunter traps are also available to both sides, and far more functional than the earth bind totem. The horde doesn't have a class that can provide the same functionality as BoF.

I think this victory goes to paladins. I think the point stands that you don't have any real control over what the other side has and you don't. You can still be a successful team, you just have to play to your strengths. I imagine assist trains on Horde are a lot more fun with shamans. Capping nodes in AB is a lot easier with a warrior + windfury as well. I think the WSG example shows a definite slant on alliance superiority.

Neither scenario is undefeatable like the pubbies would have you believe, but there is at least some truth to the generalization, imo.

[Jason Cross]

I do think they should have just lowered it a bit – say 5% instead of 30%.

I think they should have raised prices 30%. Right now, it's the equivalent of raising prices 42%. (30% less honor earned means you have to get 42% more to pay the same price)

Not only would a 30% price hike been less of a nerf, but it would have helped to balance out the honor/token problem. You already get more tokens relative to the prices compared to honor, and they only made that worse.

Of course, I still love the new system and the prices seem fine. I'm doing BGs right now. My only gripe is that in the level 60 BGs, you can get some HORRIBLY mismatched groups. And in WSG and especially AB, it seems more common than not.

[Athryn]

Two classes can dispel BoF, and BoF can get burried beneath a myriad of other trivial buffs. Hunter traps are also available to both sides, and far more functional than the earth bind totem. The horde doesn't have a class that can provide the same functionality as BoF.


Every time I've dispelled BoF, it's been the first buff removed, even with a highly buffed paladin (and yes, I've done detect magic on them with a friendly mage.) The main problem is that most priests don't even think to use Dispel Magic offensively.

The horde can provide the same functionaity as BoF by buying free action potions, which I see used rather often in WSG.


Besides, all this "paladins have this, shamans have that" whining will be going away within weeks after Burning Crusade goes live, as Paladins and Shamans level up on the opposing sides. I know I'll be leveling one, as I've really enjoyed playing one in the Beta.

[DeepT]

I wish they would consider server vs server PvP groups so they coulld at they very least drastically reduce the BG wait times.

[garin]

I wish they would consider server vs server PvP groups so they coulld at they very least drastically reduce the BG wait times.Didn't they already do that?

[Stroker Ace]

Yeah, that was the big draw of patch 1.12.

[DeepT]

No.. Not cross realms. Server vs Server.

The difference being that it would be Skullcrusher vs ArgentDawn, which would allow all Skullcrusher players (Alliance and Horde) be put on the same side.

Cross realms is still horde vs alliance, only the pool is bigger.

[Stroker Ace]

You know, when you said "server vs. server" I didn't immediately think "cross-faction grouping", but maybe that's my fault.

[Gourmand]

Every time I've dispelled BoF, it's been the first buff removed, even with a highly buffed paladin (and yes, I've done detect magic on them with a friendly mage.) The main problem is that most priests don't even think to use Dispel Magic offensively.

The horde can provide the same functionaity as BoF by buying free action potions, which I see used rather often in WSG.


Besides, all this "paladins have this, shamans have that" whining will be going away within weeks after Burning Crusade goes live, as Paladins and Shamans level up on the opposing sides. I know I'll be leveling one, as I've really enjoyed playing one in the Beta.

Good counter-points. I still feel like each side has their own distinct advantage in different BGs, but that those advantages are far from insurmountable. I just think it's silly to pretend like the differences and strengths in different scenario's automagically reach an equilibrium as well.

With the free action potions, not only do they require extra gold/time investments (catass), but they are only usable once every 2 minutes and remove usage of health/speed potions. Versus, a team with 2 paladins on it, looking for a win, you can pretty much perma BoF a druid in addition to preventing dispels by properly stunning/CCing the 1-2 classes in your vicinity that can counter you.

That's not even considering the free action pot can be stacked with the freedom buff inbetween gaps, for extended durations of snareless travel, especially if your paladin buff buddy gets dusted early on.

I see a definite alliance slant in WSG. Not to say that I don't win at all or that I give up as soon as I see more than one paladin on a team. I just think it's actually somewhat important to your strategy to recognize the other teams strengths.

I've run with some of the biggest catass guilds on probably one of the biggest catass servers in WoW. I've seen some warriors literally instagib node defenses in AB thanks to Windfury. I see that as a definite disadvantage for alliance, that they can't replicate or really defend against properly. We still sometimes lose to the alliance in AB.

[Mike Cathcart]

I think they should have raised prices 30%. Right now, it's the equivalent of raising prices 42%. (30% less honor earned means you have to get 42% more to pay the same price)

Not only would a 30% price hike been less of a nerf, but it would have helped to balance out the honor/token problem. You already get more tokens relative to the prices compared to honor, and they only made that worse. That only makes sense if Blizzard's goal was to make things 30% more expensive and they just messed up. If they had raised prices on items they probably would have raised them by about 40% because that's clearly what they want things to cost now.

Actually doing it this way is better for the players, because if you had earned 10k towards your 40k weapon (just pretend they're 40k so I don't have to look it up) you have 30k left to go. With the honor nerf that would be 42,857 old school honor. If they had increased prices by 42 percent it would now cost 56,800 honor, putting you 46,800 away.

Really it's a slight boost for anyone who had earned honor before the patch. For everyone else and for all future honor it's exactly the same as if they had increased the prices by 42%, which is probably what they would have increased the prices to if they had used that method. So they're saying they messed up on the prices but they won't penalize any honor you've already earned.

[Mike Cathcart]

Oh and I agree on the tokens, though. They really need a token dump. Hopefully they'll bring back the token guy and he'll give you honor points for tokens or something like that.