Nov 22 - Xbox Marketplace

[Gary Whitta]

Hey, isn't today the day they launch all the TV and film content? Has anyone logged in yet to check out this brave new world?

[Jazar]

160 points for TV shows.

I hear it's 240 points for HD.

[Guido Jones]

It's pretty cool. I've played with it a bit, and I'll probably rent movies I didn't catch in the theater on the 360 rather than On Demand if I can as I'll be able to get them in HD (which is only rarely available On Demand).

I watched a episode of B5 Season 1 (sadly in SD), and it was pretty neat. Only had to download about 7% before I could start watching it. HD Movies take significantly longer to cache before you can watch them, obviously.

[Gary Whitta]

What's that in real money, I can never remember. I wish Microsoft had a simple system in place like Nintendo, 500 points = 5 bucks. Simple.

[Guido Jones]

http://www.mspconverter.com/ - unofficial obviously

And yes, HD Content is more expensive then SD content. I don't remember exact prices.

[DanielElliot]

Do the movies expire 24 hours after you start watching them? That's what they've been saying all along, but it really sucks so I am holding out hope they changed it. I almost never want to watch a whole movie in one sitting.

Also, ouch, a full season of a TV show in HD will run about $70. $3 per episode doesn't sound that bad on the surface, but put in those terms, you may as well just buy the DVDs.

[Guido Jones]

Unless something was changed in the last week, then yes they expire after 24 hours (just like On Demand).

[Gary Whitta]

Also, ouch, a full season of a TV show in HD will run about $70.
It would be impossible to fit all that on the existing HD anyway.

[Rorschach]

$3 to $4.50 for an on demand movie rental is very comparable though.

edit - I can do math!

[Post-It]

I just hopped on and messed around with it for a bit. I have to say...it's pretty slick. I was apprehensive about it at first but the implemetation is really well done. Very easy to browse by genre, new arrivals, film studio, etc. Within in those, it's easy to toggle by name, release date, and most popular downloads.

Everything has a preview (trailer) that loads in about 30 seconds. Prices seem semi-reasonable.

I don't know. I might be able to see myself downloading a new movie (in HD) I haven't seen for $4, considering I generally only watch movies once. That being said, the selection right now is pretty thin.

[Lunch of Kong]

I logged in just for you (awwwww).

edit: Films are rentals that expire 24 hours after you spend points on them, TV shows are purchases.

For TV shows:
160 points ($2) for a 480p episode.
240 points ($3) for a 720p episode.

For films:
240 points ($3) for 480p.
360 points ($4) for 720p.

So far there are 47 TV shows and 48 films. The films run the gamut from G to R MPAA ratings. There's the usual shit such as Poseidon, and then there are gems like Unforgiven and Gallipoli

TV shows include a one or more seasons of:
aqua teen hunger force
CSI:[insert city here]
day break
drawn together
UFC fights
conan o'brien
pimp my ride
sealab 2021
south park
ST:TOS
studio 60
supernatural
the nine
veronic mars
wonder showzen

WTF! I try to stealth edit and 50 people post between then and now. argh. sorry. :(

[Guido Jones]

Oh yeah, the interface is very smooth. It's similar to the Zune interface if you'd played with that at all.

Correction on Roger: the TV shows are *not* rentals - they are purchases. You can redownload and watch them unlimited times.

[Gary Whitta]

Wait, the TV shows expire? I thought you got to keep those, a la iTunes.

I'm actually interested in checking out the Star Trek stuff, since those are the new HD remasters with the new special effects.

[Guido Jones]

You can, Roger is mistaken.

[Charles]

drawn together

Sure hope they have the episodes hooked in to parental controls!

Although I suppose they'll probably be the censored versions.

[Gary Whitta]

Browsing the marketplace now.

Wow, I really like this. Love the Zune-like interface and it's an impressive amount of content for a launch.

Ooh, they have Studio 60, including this week's episode. Niiice.

Okay, so I'm going to download an episode of Trek. I'm not much of an expert on the original series, so can someone recommend a good episode? There are 29 available:

A Taste of Armageddon
Arena
Balance of Terror
Charlie "X"
Court Martial
Dagger of the Mind
Errand of Mercy (I have this one on DVD already)
Miri
Mudd's Women
Operation Annihilate
Shore Leave
Space Seed
The Alternative Factor
The City on the Edhe of Forever (I have this one on DVD already)
The Conscience of the King
The Corbomite Maneuver
The Devil in the Dark
The Enemy Within
The Galileo Seven
The Man Trap
The Menagerie Part 1
The Menagerie Part 2
The Return of the Archons
The Squire of Gothos
This Side of Paradise
Tomorrow is Yesterday
What Are Little Girls Made Of
Where No Man Has Gone Before

EDIT: Wait, it would would appear that HD versions are not available after all. Bummer!

[Lunch of Kong]

I was wrong, sorry! I thought the blurb I read on the xbox live help applied to both film and tv.

[SorenJohnson]

Okay, so I'm going to download an episode of Trek. I'm not much of an expert on the original series, so can someone recommend a good episode? There are 29 available:


Space Seed

[Gordon Cameron]

That's a limited selection but I'd echo the Space Seed recommendation. Or Galileo 7, Taste of Armageddon, or Squire of Gothos.

[Case]

A Taste of Armageddon
Arena
Balance of Terror
Charlie "X"
Court Martial
Dagger of the Mind
Errand of Mercy (I have this one on DVD already)
Miri
Mudd's Women
Operation Annihilate
Shore Leave
Space Seed
The Alternative Factor
The City on the Edhe of Forever (I have this one on DVD already)
The Conscience of the King
The Corbomite Maneuver
The Devil in the Dark
The Enemy Within
The Galileo Seven
The Man Trap
The Menagerie Part 1
The Menagerie Part 2
The Return of the Archons
The Squire of Gothos
This Side of Paradise
Tomorrow is Yesterday
What Are Little Girls Made Of
Where No Man Has Gone Before

EDIT: Wait, it would would appear that HD versions are not available after all. Bummer!

Balance of Terror

[ElGuapo]

Dude, Arena. That's the one where he fights the famous lizard-man on the cliff that was in Bill and Ted. Where he has to gather the ingredients in order to make his crappy cannon while Spock and Bones take bets on who wins.

Kiiiiiiirrrk. Sssssssssss.

[Charles]

It also has the music used in The Cable Guy.

[ElGuapo]

Are you sure? I thought that was the music used when Kirk fights Spock during the pon-far episode where Spock's semen backs up and he goes all crazy.

Or maybe it's all the same music.

[BlueJackalope]

I gotta say (without trying it) this is pretty tasty. I dont have cable but like a lot of the stuff they have here - Sealab, Southpark, some UFC stuff.
Now I'm not stuck waiting till DVDs of these shows come out. And I can skip a trip to the video store.

[BlueJackalope]

Are you sure? I thought that was the music used when Kirk fights Spock during the pon-far episode where Spock's semen backs up and he goes all crazy.

Or maybe it's all the same music.

Kirk's fight music is all the same

BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAWWWW BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAWWWW

...and the fight is OVER when he breaks out the double axe handle - to the top of the spine FTW

[Claycw]

The HD movies are only 720P no 1080i?

[ElGuapo]

Approximately how big is a TV show episode in HD (720p)? A movie in HD(720p)?

Can anyone look? Do you know this before you download it?

[DanielElliot]

After you buy a TV show, can you redownload it whenever you want like you can arcade games and other pay content?

[Balasarius]

Wait -- I have to pay for this above an beyond all the other reasons I've given MS money...?

ROFLCOPTERS!

Nice try, Bill. Nice try.

[Guido Jones]

After you buy a TV show, can you redownload it whenever you want like you can arcade games and other pay content?

Yes, you can

[Guido Jones]

Approximately how big is a TV show episode in HD (720p)? A movie in HD(720p)?

Can anyone look? Do you know this before you download it?

V for Vendetta was ~6GB in HD (give or take, can't remember the exact number). Not sure about the TV stuff, I haven't looked that closely at those.

Anyone can look, and you know everything before you purchase. It's just an added area under the "Video" blade called "Video Marketplace"

[DanielElliot]

Wait -- I have to pay for this above an beyond all the other reasons I've given MS money...?

ROFLCOPTERS!

Nice try, Bill. Nice try.

Yes...you have to pay MS for this, just like you have to pay MS for many other products and services you use...

(weirdo.)

:)

[Lorini]

Is this stuff what the new Xbox 360 Hard disk is for?

Lorini

[Claycw]

Does the 360 upconvert the 720P to 1080i or down convert to 480p?

[Guido Jones]

If it holds true like the rest of the system, it should up convert but I haven't tried it out (my default output is 720p)

[mixuk]

What's that in real money, I can never remember. I wish Microsoft had a simple system in place like Nintendo, 500 points = 5 bucks. Simple.

There are other currencies in the world than US dollar. But I guess your point still stands, it'd be easier at least for lot of people.

[Guido Jones]

Is this stuff what the new Xbox 360 Hard disk is for?

Lorini

No Hard Disk was announced. I know, there was a demo showing Major Nelson with like a 80GB HD, but no official announcements. I want a bigger HD too.

[Claycw]

unfortunatly my TV on has 480P & 1080i so I hope it upconverts

[Gordon Cameron]

At the risk of outing myself as an unrecoverable Trek nerd.... oh who am I kidding, that happened two decades ago.

The fight music from Amok Time appeared for the first time in that episode. Between that and "Spock's theme" (the melancholy bass tune) it's some of the best scoring for a TV episode I have heard. "Arena" was produced earlier (first season) and wouldn't have had that particular music.

[Qenan]

No Hard Disk was announced. I know, there was a demo showing Major Nelson with like a 80GB HD, but no official announcements. I want a bigger HD too.

No kidding. What I really want is an enclosure that allows me to use any laptop drive I can fit in it.

[DanielElliot]

Or support for USB external drives. Seems like that'd be pretty damn easy, since it HAS USB PORTS and you can use USB keyboards already.

[JM]

Does it have subtitles (closed captioning)?

[Rorschach]

Wait -- I have to pay for this above an beyond all the other reasons I've given MS money...?

ROFLCOPTERS!

Nice try, Bill. Nice try.

I spent $200 for my iPod and now I have to pay for songs through iTunes too?

Nice try, Steve. Nice try.

[tromik]

Is this only available in the States atm? Can I create a US account and grap it like I did with my Euro account for the Vegas demo?

[Coca Cola Zero]

Wait -- I have to pay... for things?

ROFLCOPTERS!

Nice try, Capitalist Pig Dogs. Nice try.

[Gary Whitta]

Wait -- I have to pay for this above an beyond all the other reasons I've given MS money...?

ROFLCOPTERS!

Nice try, Bill. Nice try.
Microsoft is not a charity, nor are any of the companies providing the content. Why shouldn't you have to pay for it?

[Moore]

Gary: don't bother with the ST episodes on there, sick your HD-DVR on NBC, they are showing remastered HD ones late at night all the time now.

[Greatatlantic]

So basically the Xbox360 now lets you do what Direct2Drive has let you do for months? Except you do it on a platform with out a DVD or CD burner. I'm not getting the excitement here.

[slantz]

Microsoft is not a charity, nor are any of the companies providing the content. Why shouldn't you have to pay for it?
Because he bought something from Micro$oft, and now he deserves everything else for free!

[slantz]

So basically the Xbox360 now lets you do what Direct2Drive has let you do for months? Except you do it on a platform with out a DVD or CD burner. I'm not getting the excitement here.
Not everyone has a PC. Not everyone knows about (or wants to use) Direct2Drive. Many people like the idea of buying their content through their TV and watching it on their TV within a minute or so. Microsoft is a trusted brand name, and this is an easy end-to-end solution. Customers can spend points they've already bought.

etc.

And I've had the bigger HD confirmed by a buddy in the know at MS, but no details were given. But then again, I think we all know it's coming, even though it hasn't been announced yet.

[Gordon Cameron]

Gary: don't bother with the ST episodes on there, sick your HD-DVR on NBC, they are showing remastered HD ones late at night all the time now.

I am not normally a fan of "redoing" special effects in shows or movies, but I have to say that from what I've seen of the Trek stuff it is quite tasteful. The redone shots are modest and retain the look of the old show, keeping the original models etc. They just make the angles a bit more dramatic and dress up the planet surfaces from what I have seen. I haven't seen how they have handled the episodes with a high number of space/effects shots, though. (For instance, Doomsday Machine or Tholian Web.) They seem to be erring on the side of keeping the original look even if it is cheesy, which I think is a wise approach as otherwise the contrast with the interiors would be jarring and it wouldn't feel like Trek. (For instance, they didn't alter the goofy "pipe cleaner aliens" at the end of Catspaw; to do so would be too big a change from what viewers remember.) I'm particularly curious to see how they handle Doomsday, though. That is a dramatically perfect episode flawed by poor effects work. Well, poor model design to be more precise -- the Doomsday Machine itself looks like a big floating turd or something. (By contrast, some of the space effects in old Trek look pretty good even today, and are better than similar effects in some other sci-fi TV shows even into the 80s.)

[Gary Whitta]

Gary: don't bother with the ST episodes on there, sick your HD-DVR on NBC, they are showing remastered HD ones late at night all the time now.
Really? Hmmm, I haven't seen that on my local NBC... I'll check but I wonder if the affiliates are doing different things.

[Gary Whitta]

So basically the Xbox360 now lets you do what Direct2Drive has let you do for months? Except you do it on a platform with out a DVD or CD burner. I'm not getting the excitement here.
It goes straight to your big-screen TV in your living room?

[Gordon Cameron]

Really? Hmmm, I haven't seen that on my local NBC... I'll check but I wonder if the affiliates are doing different things.

Here in LA, the NBC affiliate runs them on Sunday nights at midnight. Not sure if there are any other showtimes.

[Greatatlantic]

Not everyone has a PC. Not everyone knows about (or wants to use) Direct2Drive. Many people like the idea of buying their content through their TV and watching it on their TV within a minute or so. Microsoft is a trusted brand name, and this is an easy end-to-end solution. Customers can spend points they've already bought.

In this day and age, I'd say pretty much everyone deos have a PC. And certainly the people posting on this forum have a PC. If they don't, I doubt they'd have a 360. Unless we're talking about children who then probably don't have a credit card to buy points with. And speaking of points, it makes a lot more sense to me to have a straight of dollar for product exchange. Then, I know exaclty what I'm paying for what. Points just seem to be a middleman whose sole purpose to confuse me from realizing exactly how much I'm spending (that goes beyond 360 point, I find its true for any sort of these market exchanges).

As for Microsoft using its brand name appeal to make a product more appealing, I guess thats a reason for some people to buy things. But doesn't that just mean Microsoft is now taking our money where before somebody else did? If thats a "brave new world", to quote the original poster, then I feel like I belong on an island.

[Gary Whitta]

Most people prefer to watch movies and TV shows on an actual TV set in their living room rather than on a PC screen, that's why this is appealing. It's the reason why Apple is developing a wireless streaming device for the iTunes video store.

I think it's a cool service, it's the first game console to offer anything like this, and the prices are reasonable. It's really just the next step from existing On Demand PPV services. If you don't like it, don't have anything to do with it. I don't see the problem.

[DanielElliot]

Ok, last question. Do they do anything lame with aspect ratios? Like squash movies that are wider than 16:9 into 16:9?

[DennyA]

Couple of things on the remastered Treks:
1) Not NBC. Syndicated. Channel will vary depending on where you live.
2) The episodes have been chopped. :( I watched Mirror Mirror and they cut out half of the epilogue. The entire segment where Spock explains how he figured out the evil Kirk was evil was cut out. Which pretty much eliminated my desire to watch these on TV.

[Guido Jones]

Ok, last question. Do they do anything lame with aspect ratios? Like squash movies that are wider than 16:9 into 16:9?

I don't believe so, but I haven't played with nearly enough of the HD content to say that authortatively.

[Charles]

Is this only available in the States atm? Can I create a US account and grap it like I did with my Euro account for the Vegas demo?


I wasn't able to find any of the stuff listed in this thread on xbox live last night, so yeah, I expect it's limited to the US. And since it's a pay system, they probably determine your area via your credit card.

[DennyA]

Yep, only in the USA for starters.

It's that whole "broadcast rights" issue. As I understand it, each country has different licensees you have to deal with for the various shows. (IE: If you want to offer CSI in Canada, you have to deal with the IP owner, plus whoever has broadcast rights in Canada.)

So it'll take a while to roll out elsewhere due to all the lawyerin' involved.

[Charles]

Yep, only in the USA for starters.

It's that whole "broadcast rights" issue. As I understand it, each country has different licensees you have to deal with for the various shows. (IE: If you want to offer CSI in Canada, you have to deal with the IP owner, plus whoever has broadcast rights in Canada.)

So it'll take a while to roll out elsewhere due to all the lawyerin' involved.

Yeah. Same shit with music sites usually. Different companies own the distribution rights and it has to be okayed with them first. Oh well. I can download the episodes and convert them easy enough. Hooray!

[tromik]

I wasn't able to find any of the stuff listed in this thread on xbox live last night, so yeah, I expect it's limited to the US. And since it's a pay system, they probably determine your area via your credit card.
I buy point cards though.

[Charles]

I buy point cards though.

I thought XBL gold accounts were tied to credit cards.

[Guido Jones]

You don't have to have Gold to use this, or any other downloadable content on XBL - just a silver account. Which you can setup without a CC.

[bago]

After getting the servers hammered the marketplace was rolled back for a while last night. However this morning it was back online and I was able to continue my download. It just finished in fact. w00t!

[Charles]

You don't have to have Gold to use this, or any other downloadable content on XBL - just a silver account. Which you can setup without a CC.

Ah, ok.

[Fugitive]

I believe the region your account is tied to actually comes from the Windows Live/Passport account you associate with it. People have been creating alternate accounts to get exclusive demos and videos from other regions, and have had to make sure the mailing address in that account was valid for that region.

[Guido Jones]

I believe the region your account is tied to actually comes from the Windows Live/Passport account you associate with it. People have been creating alternate accounts to get exclusive demos and videos from other regions, and have had to make sure the mailing address in that account was valid for that region.

Windows Live ID is the correct term, but that is how you do it.

[Moore]

I thought XBL gold accounts were tied to credit cards.
only by user choice, they arent required.

[Balasarius]

Microsoft is not a charity, nor are any of the companies providing the content. Why shouldn't you have to pay for it?
I dunno. Maybe because my existing On Demand service gives me hundreds of titles for free? Including free HD titles. (Well, they're included in my Cable subscription.)

I'd say that's a pretty big reason.

[Gary Whitta]

(Well, they're included in my Cable subscription.)

And therefore not free.

[Balasarius]

And therefore not free.

They cost me nothing.

The XBL videos do.

Sorry, Gary, but you really sound like some MS exec pitching this to Peter Moore -- "It'll be great Peter, they can download TV shows and movies and we can charge them our patented not-so-micro microtransactions!!!"

MS neglected the fact that I can already download movies, and do so for free. I will never, ever use this "great new feature."

[forgeforsaken]

You pay a subscription for your cable, unless you are pirating it. The downloads are part of that service, thus you pay for them. Also, most cable providers still charge for PPV content and new releases, it's the older ones and tv shows that they offer up for free. 360 pricing is pretty much inline with Itunes pricing.

[Gary Whitta]

They cost me nothing.

The XBL videos do.

Sorry, Gary, but you really sound like some MS exec pitching this to Peter Moore -- "It'll be great Peter, they can download TV shows and movies and we can charge them our patented not-so-micro microtransactions!!!"

MS neglected the fact that I can already download movies, and do so for free. I will never, ever use this "great new feature."
Your cable costs you nothing? Wow, where can I sign up for that service?

Just to clarify, you cannot download movies for free, unless you're stealing them. You are paying for your on-demand movies, it's included in the price of your cable sub. It's not free. Virtually no legitimate content is.

I don't understand the hostility toward the XBL model. It's the exact same model that iTunes has been using for years now, right down to the pricing structure. Unlike the cable on-demand model, where you pay a monthly fee and take whatever content they decide to serve you, services like iTunes and XBL are a la carte - the basic membership is free, and you pay only for the content you choose to acquire.

If you feel you're already getting enough content from your pay cable service, great, don't use the service. I just don't understand the ideological problems with the business model. This isn't some evil "patented" idea that Microsoft is pioneering, they are simply trying something that a lot of other major services already do.

[Guido Jones]

And his response is going to be "And I pay a subscripton to Xbox Live!" - the only problem with this logic is you don't need a subscription to use the Video Marketplace. The Gold subscription buys you the ability to play games with people online, no more, no less. If you don't play games online, you should go with a Silver subscription.

[tromik]

I'd like to hijack this thread for just a second. When are we going tobe able to stop paying for XBL? I was hoping Sony would have a similar online service at launch, and would force Microsoft lower the price, or drop the subscription fee altogether, but that didn't quite happen. Considering that all the servers are peer servers, what exactly are we paying for? The ability to connect to them? I already pay my ISP for that.

The video marketplace thing is great though. Balasarius is just cheap, I guess.

Oh, once you download a video, can you move it around?

[Gary Whitta]

I guess if and when Sony actually offers a PS3 service that's as good as or better than Xbox Live and manages to keep it free, that will force Microsoft to reconsider their model.

[Guido Jones]

Oh, once you download a video, can you move it around?

Not sure what you mean - off the 360? If so, the no. You could theoritically copy it to a memory card and move it to another 360, but the movies are all bigger then the mem cards.

[Ben Sones]

I just got around to browsing the movie selection, and I have to say: I'm not too impressed. Very limited selection (although I assume that will grow over time), and most of the stuff seems to be available in 480p only. The newer movies ("new releases," so to speak) like V for Vendetta are available in high def, but they are also more expensive--320 points (~$4) for 480p, and 480 points (~$6) for high def. Yikes! That's way too much for a movie rental, by a lot.

[Qenan]

I agree. It's interesting conceptually, but in practice they aren't there yet.

[RobotPants]

Has anyone noticed any problems with the framerate on the videos? The only thing I've downloaded so far are a couple of Conan O'Brien 480p clips and they were both rather choppy. They looked really good for 480p, but the framerate just wasn't all that steady. Hopefully it's specific to these clips, but I'm a bit worried about paying for something.

[Moggraider]

I rented a couple movies already. Playback was fine and they were in their real 2.35:1 aspect ratios. The only problem was download time was dog-slow. Each movie took a whole day, and this is on a speedy-with-everything-else university connection. Hopefully the servers'll be straightened out soon, but I'm going to wait for some major library expansion before I get anything else.

[Kalle]

I just don't understand the ideological problems with the business model. This isn't some evil "patented" idea that Microsoft is pioneering, they are simply trying something that a lot of other major services already do.

See this.

I'm the weirdo who wants to pay directly for the shows I watch, and what the networks are telling me (via their pricing) is that they will charge me more for profoundly restricted versions of the same content if they believe they can get away with it. No. No, in every language. I'm not a psychotic demagogue when it comes to DRM, I'm willing to tolerate it when I get what I want out of the bargain. That's not happening here. These are versions of shows for more money with less features and zero portability.

I don't want to be so strident. At first, I thought that content holders weren't taking the tectonic potential of these services seriously. I now believe it's just the opposite. Looking at their model, it's almost engineered to make digital delivery the least appealing option.

[RobotPants]

Well, his argument holds up if we're talking strictly about people who can watch and/or DVR the shows for free on TV/cable/satellite already. But I don't think that's really the target audience for the downloadable TV shows, is it? As for the movie "rentals", I don't see the problem with them at all. You pay to watch the movie, then you have to give it back. It's the same as going to Blockbuster, pretty much, except more convenient and you also get to pick movies in HD. The amount of content isn't in the same realm, obviously, but that's sure to get better over time.

Oh, and I downloaded a few movie clips and they seemed fine. I guess it's just the Conan clips that suck.

[DanielElliot]

The Conan clips were available several months ago (for free), so may have been encoded differently.