Holiday 2006: The Xbox angle

[Gary Whitta]

Okay, so lots and lots of talk so far about PS3 and Wii this holiday season, but not so much on the other big player, X360. It's easy to forget since it's the least new and therefore the least sexy of the three. Even I, big-time Xbox cheerleader, am guilty of this one - I was walking around Best Buy last night, gazing at all the shiny new PS3 and Wii stuff, and then I walked right into a massive stack of 360 Premium systems and was reminded, "Oh yeah, there's that, too."

So I was thinking about it today, how 360 fits into the puzzle this buying season. It seems like Microsoft will be well-positioned to shift units because Sony has effectively put themselves out of the picture and even Wii, while clearly a much better launch than PS3, might still be somewhat tricky to find in the weeks ahead. That leaves 360 as the only system that you're guaranteed to be able to find easily in any store.

But is that enough? I wonder if maybe Microsoft needed to make some kind of move to capitalize on the door that Sony has left wide open. Because it would appear that their current strategy is to do nothing, no price drop, no bundle, no significant additional promotion that I can see.

I don't know if one year is too early for a price drop or if it's just not viable for MS from a financial standpoint right now, but it seems like Sony has dropped the ball and MS should be doing more than just standing there staring at it.

A price drop might have been asking a bit much, but I would have loved to see some kind of killer bundle, maybe a Gears of War pack with specialized packaging. Premium system, GoW special edition and a faceplate for $399.99. That doesn't seem like it would have killed them to do, and I bet it would have shifted a shit-ton of units. The only downside I can see is, what do you then do with the zillions of existing non-bundled 360s out there? Do they become devalued by the bundled edition? I dunno, either way it seems like a way they could have shifted an extra hundred or so thousand units over the holidays.

Or maybe they're not doing anything because they don't need to do anything. The system is pretty well positioned right now as a proven, solid choice, an established brand and the only next-gen system with a wide library of games. Maybe that's enough.

[Backov]

Well I know that I'll be purchasing one (again) this Christmas along with my HDTV. I'm glad that they're finally easily available.

The Wii of course is still a higher priority, since I think I will be able to get my wife to play with it. I like that idea. :)

[Drastic]

I'll be buying one shortly to go along with the HDTV that's also in the near-future purchase list.

So that'll probably guarantee a significant price drop a couple weeks after whenever I do that.

[forgeforsaken]

It's a problem of perception. Microsoft doesn't want to appear as if they are dropping the price to counter the PS3, as that would imply weakness. They want to give the impression that the 360 can stand toe to toe with the PS3 as is. We'll probably see a price drop maybe in the spring after there's some distance from the PS3 launch.

[Kevin Grey]

It feels like they are sort of taking a cautious wait and see approach, especially after Sony's stumbles instead of going for the throat.

In good news for them, they announced today that GoW has sold 1 million copies worldwide but the real question is whether or not it's moving systems. If it's just selling to the existing install base, as most other big first month 360 sellers have, it will saturate very quickly.

[Gordon Cameron]

If I were to buy a next gen console, it would probably be an X360. I have no immediate plans to do so, though, since my PC games backlog is big enough.

[tromik]

I bought my 360 premium just under a month ago. I play and FPS games more than any other genre, and the 360 has them in spades. I also love online multiplayer. I could have bought a Wii, but I'm not into mini games and party games, or even arcade-style games; I seek more depth (but more gibs and guns than Zelda) than that. I do enjoy action games, which the Playstation 2 excelled at, and I realized if there was even going to be a PS3 for me to purchase, I wouldn't even be able to afford it. That said, I'm also not into non-digtal media, HD or not.

I bought my 360 about two weeks before Gears came out, but if they had released a premium Gears pack with the game, a faceplate, and some other cheap fanboy crap, I would have waited. Even without a pricedrop.

I think I bought my 360 at the right time.

Unless they do release a Gears edition before Christmas with a pricedrop.

[Greg Vederman]

It's a problem of perception. Microsoft doesn't want to appear as if they are dropping the price to counter the PS3, as that would imply weakness. They want to give the impression that the 360 can stand toe to toe with the PS3 as is. We'll probably see a price drop maybe in the spring after there's some distance from the PS3 launch.

Good point. But what about some clever 360 ads -- something that at least attempts to sate hungry console gamers unable to find (or afford) a PS3 or Wii with the promise of something meatier? Are ads like that out there and I'm just not seeing them? Maybe MS will launch a marketing blitz on or after Black Friday?

-Vede

[Gary Whitta]

I agree that a price drop is probably too early in the lifecycle, which is why I suggest something like a Gears bundle. Gears is right in the bullseye of the PlayStation demographic, it seems like a great way to snag some of those gamers before they even have a chance to buy a PS3.

I just feel like they should at least be making SOME noise, rattling the cages a bit. Right now they're just sitting there.

[Guido Jones]

They are doing a bundle - sort of. If you know a Microsoft employee, they can buy a sweet bundle through the company store for $435 which includes Viva Pinata, PGR3, and Kameo plus 12 Month Gold Subscription.

[stusser]

Simple enough to do (if they wanted to) without obsoleting all of the boxes already in the channel. Publish a coupon, if you buy a 360 with gears, you get $60 off at the register. No problem.

[Frumple]

In Canada, Future Shop has this Holiday Pro Bundle - Premium XBOX 360 + 4 games ( GRAW, GoW, Ridge Racer 6, and Live Arcade Unplugged ) for 499.99.

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10080318&logon=&langid=EN

The real kicker was last Friday, they had a 1 day only "Sorry you didn't get a PS3 sale" which was the same bundle as above for 450.00.

I heard they sold 200+ systems at the one store that day. Factor in the 10-15 PS3s and 90 odd Wiis sold and MS still pushed more units last weekend. Madness.

I'm still holding out for a Wii but the xbox deal is tempting me...I'm feeling a serious desire to spend after being left empty handed last week.

[Angrycoder]

Alot of the major retailers (Circuit City, EBgames, Target, Meijer) are giving away a game with the purchase of a 360 on black friday.

Meijer - Xbox 360 Premium System w/ Lego Star Wars II & Extra Wireless Controller $399.99

Target - FREE XB360 Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter w/ XB360 System $399.99

Ebgames/Gamestop - XBOX360 Premium System w/ FREE GOTY Call of Duty 2 Game & Product Replacement Plan $399.99 (Savings of $80)

Circuit City - FREE GAME (up to $59.99) w/ XB360 System Purchase $299/$399/$499 Bundle

source - cheapass gamer http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114198

I thought I read something a few weeks ago that MS was selling the system to retailers below the 399 MSRP, which is what is allowing the retailers to do these kind of deals. Although I could just be haulcinating and/or full of shit.

[Jason Cross]

Funny you should bring this topic up, I just read this article:

http://games-news.sympatico.msn.ca/Video_Games/BreakingNews/ContentPosting.htm?newsitemid=6874bba7-1c78-4f07-bff5-25738e90510a&feedname=TODD_BREAKINGNEWS&show=true&number=5&showbyline=true&abc=abc

They're not specific enough, but claim that retailers are confirming that the 360 outsold the PS3 and Wii this past weekend. It's on a Canadian news site, so maybe they're talking about Canada specifically and not North America in general. It wouldn't be a big surprise to me if a good chunk of people get all excited about the next generation of game systems, can't easily get a PS3 or Wii, and so "settle" for an Xbox 360 so they can at least get some kind of next-gen-ness.

[VegasRobb]

That's a nice settle. $399 + games/accessories versus finding a PS3 or Wii on eBay/Craiglist/etc.

[Dante Rising (X)]

Microsoft needs to sell about 1 million units worldwide to hit that 8 million mark. Somebody better do something. :)

Gears of War is too much of a cash cow to bundle with the system. I'd work out a deal to bundle Call of Duty 3 or the new Splinter Cell:Double Agent. Both target the same crowd as Gears of War and both are established franchises.

[Hanzii]

A bundle would win me over (especially if bundled with a HDTV...;)

I went to a convention to try the Wii and the PS3 and allthough Microsoft had the biggest booth, they just had games to try and didn't at all spend advertising space on telling everybody that their console was actually avaliable to buy - whereas Sony had preorder boxes avaliable when exiting their booth (one shop had them packaged in dvd-covers, translated to Danish, but with the original November 17th date on the box... I considered buying one and making a scene, when they didn't hand over the console right away).

One shop had the 360 Premium for sale at $333 (which is a sale here) but not a great presence and no huge signs. I wanted it to play Dead Rising and GoW, but DR was nowhere to be seen and GoW was right next to it at $92.
I know the PS3 will be more expensive and games won't likely be cheaper... but at prices like $92 for a game, I won't be getting both, so I'm still on the fence 'till march.

A bundle, good advertising, more games (cheaper) and Microsoft would have had me this christmas.

[Derek Meister]

That leaves 360 as the only system that you're guaranteed to be able to find easily in any store.

But is that enough?

It was for me. I don't think I went even twelve hours after having finally purchased a HDTV before the first thoughts of purchasing a next generation gaming console started to creep into my head.

The ability to find a 360 anywhere with little hassle, plus a relatively mature game library thanks to the year lead made it an easy choice for someone like myself who didn't have any of the systems.

[Sarkus]

I'm a little concerned about the 360's position because there seems to be a lack of more accessible games on the system. If you are a hard core gamer it makes sense to buy it but it's not a kid friendly system by any stretch. Despite Halo/Halo2 the Xbox didn't achieve true mass market success for the same reason and it seems like the same thing is happening with the 360. Gears is great but where is the game that will sell the system to the parents who's kid is under the age of 15?

That's where the Wii is going to clean up this year and with Nintendo promising 2 million + units, the impact will be felt. I expect the 360 will not live up to expectations this year.

[Hanzii]

Yeah, that too.
Unless Nintendo lets me keep my review sample I'll only get to own one console this generation (but I'm lucky since I'll get to play extensively with all three before making my purchase) - whichever has the most kidfriendly games will most likely get a big lead. And I think the PS3 solely based on the PS2 library wins here.

[metta]

We just bought a 360 last week, and it was purely becuase it has the games we want to play.

On a related note: I think this article is interesting, but don't know enough about the industry to write intelligently about it's position; someone else please do :0


Opinion: Xbox 360 Software Attach Rate Is 'Alarming'

The latest issue of Jason Kraft and Chris Kwak's 'Video Game Journal' for the Susquehanna Financial Group examines the software attach rate for the Xbox 360, and explores why such an “alarmingly high” rate may not bode well for Microsoft's next-generation console.

Specifically, the report cites the recently announced Xbox 360 attach rate of around five games per console sold as confirmed by Microsoft in October, a number that was up from the roughly four games per console attach rate announced by the company at the console's launch in 2005.

While traditionally a growth in attach rate is considered to be a positive, the report suggests that such an increase could mean that even though Xbox 360 software continues to enjoy brisk sales, the hardware itself has not seen similar increases in consumer demand. In fact, it concludes: “We believe the unusually high attach rate on the 360 is a sign of an increasingly unhealthy console growth rate, and should be worrisome to publishers and investors.”

The analysts further explain their hypothesis by offering that a significant portion of the Xbox 360 consoles currently in circulation were purchased by hard-core gamers, who, by definition, purchase a lot of games.

Because of this, even if the hardware installed base were to remain relatively unchanged over the next 18 months, the software attach rate would continue to climb. Thus, while the numbers would seem to indicate a healthy consumer trend for the Xbox 360, the report concludes that “its growth will be capped fairly quickly without an ever-expanding hardware installed base.”

The report further adds that the Xbox 360's high software attach rate is “a damning commentary on the limited hardware installed base, most of whom are hard-core gamers.” The analysts add that what is actually needed by Microsoft for its latest console, as well as by third party software publishers, is “quicker adoption of hardware and a rapidly growing installed base on which to sell progressively more game units,” rather than just more games sold per existing Xbox 360 owner.

In conclusion, the authors state, “If the Xbox 360 sports an attach rate of ten by holiday 2007, it will probably be because it has failed to gather critical momentum. What does it benefit publishers and investors if ten games are being purchased by a total audience of 10 million 360 owners? It doesn’t take effort to see that a console with an attach rate of 8 and an installed base of 50 million is superior to a console with an attach rate of 12 with an installed base of 20 mln."

The analysts also believe that a similar fate could await Sony and its recently launched PlayStation 3, adding: "We believe the PS3 could exhibit similar attach rate characteristics versus the 360. There is a chance the PS3 will have an even higher attach rate in its first year. Lest anyone conclude this is just the step-function trend of next-gen consoles, we caution that a high attach rate is likely a symptom of hardware shortages and a limited installed base. This is bad for publishers."

[Jason McMaster]

If anyone has MicroCenter (http://www.microcenter.com/) around them, I received a circular today that they are selling 360's at 100 bucks off (199/299).

Note: The MicroCenter website is a big old pile of ass, so I wouldn't rely on it.

[forgeforsaken]

I'm a little concerned about the 360's position because there seems to be a lack of more accessible games on the system. If you are a hard core gamer it makes sense to buy it but it's not a kid friendly system by any stretch. Despite Halo/Halo2 the Xbox didn't achieve true mass market success for the same reason and it seems like the same thing is happening with the 360. Gears is great but where is the game that will sell the system to the parents who's kid is under the age of 15?

Other than Wii which of the new consoles is really though? 360 does have some stuff though like Lego Star Wars, Viva, and the various movie tie in games like Cars, Open Season etc. I mean if you look at the PS3 software list they are even more mass market unfriendly at this point, this is including announced titles, not just released.

[Dante Rising (X)]

Gears is great but where is the game that will sell the system to the parents who's kid is under the age of 15?

How many people will buy an Xbox 360 or PS3 for a ten or fourteen year old? I think that the sytem purchase price limits the penetration into this target market, and thus Sony and MS focus on more adult oriented titles. As a console matures, games for kids become more common. Thus you have the release of Viva Pinata, Sonic the Hedgehog, those Burger King tie-ins, and the upcoming Banjo-Kazooie game by Rare.

[Kevin Grey]

We just bought a 360 last week, and it was purely becuase it has the games we want to play.

On a related note: I think this article is interesting, but don't know enough about the industry to write intelligently about it's position; someone else please do :0

Opinion: Xbox 360 Software Attach Rate Is 'Alarming'

I'm not sure about "alarming" but I do agree with the conclusion that it shows the system is really only being bought by hardcore gamers and has yet to make any headway into the casual market. Month after month has seen new games hit huge sales (GRAW, Oblivion, Dead Rising, Saint's Row) without any noticeable uptick in hardware sales.

[Guido Jones]

Gears is great but where is the game that will sell the system to the parents who's kid is under the age of 15?


Viva Pinata. I agree though, kiddie games is something the system is a bit lacking on.

[forgeforsaken]

Viva Pinata. I agree though, kiddie games is something the system is a bit lacking on.

Like I said above though, it's not like PS3 has anything in this area either, and in fact the 360 has a lot more. Wii is the only new console with real kid friendly appeal right now.

[fuzzyslug]

Good point. But what about some clever 360 ads -- something that at least attempts to sate hungry console gamers unable to find (or afford) a PS3 or Wii with the promise of something meatier? Are ads like that out there and I'm just not seeing them? Maybe MS will launch a marketing blitz on or after Black Friday?

-Vede

It would make some sense to wait until the launch weekend hubbub has cleared. Let Sony and Nintendo have last week and start poring it on in time for the shopping season to really begin. After all, who will compete with the 360 this weekend?

[Rorschach]

Microsoft isn't lowering the price on the 360 yet because they don't have to. You can walk into any retailer and walk out with an X360. Can't say the same about the other two. They've got a hit with the hardcore with Gears, and a hit with the family / Sims / Pokemon people with Viva Pinata.

I think they wait until the spring when PS3 starts becoming available and counter with a price drop.

Looks like Gears is becoming a Live seller, and maybe a system seller?

More than 85 Percent of Players Connect to Xbox Live, Driving New Gold Memberships by 50 Percent

As “Gears of War” continues to emerge throughout the world ahead of the holiday sales rush, the Xbox 360 juggernaut has sold an impressive 1 million copies world-wide in just its first two weeks of release—elevating the game to the fastest-selling title of 2006 and fastest-selling original Xbox game of all time.

The battle continues to rage on Xbox Live as well, as more than 850,000 unique gamers have engaged in 10 million gameplay sessions while unlocking an impressive 7 million Achievements. On top of being the #1 title on Xbox Live, “Gears of War” has also driven new members to the network, as paid registrations per day have skyrocketed more than 50 percent since the game’s launch.

Propelling its rise to popularity, Gears of War has been crowned the best next generation game of the year by over 45 publications, earning a 95 percent average review score as tracked by www.gamerankings.com. Critics everywhere overwhelmingly agree and have united to make “Gears of War” one of the best-reviewed games of all time.

“From the very beginning, we knew ‘Gears of War’ would be an industry-defining hit,” said Shane Kim, corporate vice president at Microsoft Game Studios. “As we watched both the game and its hype grow, it became obvious that ‘Gears of War’ was the rare title that could live up to such incredible anticipation, and judging from the reaction of critics and fans, it’s done just that.”

[rjcc]

Ijust saw an x360 / burnout bundle in the black friday walmart ad as well. I agree with rorshach on a spring price drop, most likely within a week of ps3's european launch...assuming that doesn't get pushed back.

[Mark Crump]

How many people will buy an Xbox 360 or PS3 for a ten or fourteen year old? I think that the sytem purchase price limits the penetration into this target market, and thus Sony and MS focus on more adult oriented titles. As a console matures, games for kids become more common. Thus you have the release of Viva Pinata, Sonic the Hedgehog, those Burger King tie-ins, and the upcoming Banjo-Kazooie game by Rare.


Actually, my boss was asking me other day this very question. He wanted to get one for his 10-year old for Christmas. I told him either the Wii or the 360, but to take a gander at the libraries for each and see what his kid could handle--I had some fears that the 360 library might be too mature for him.

But, he's got a big-ass HDTV so the 360 might win there.

[Angrycoder]

The UK is getting official bundles starting this friday. The bundles include a premium 360, 30 day gold live membership, and either Gears of War, Call of Doodie 3, or WWE Smackdown for 300 GBP.

This sounds great, but the normal retail price for the 360 according to amazon.com is 279.99 GBP. So with a game, you end up saving around 30 GBP plus getting a free 1 month live membership. Still, not a bad deal.

source: eurogamer - http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=70275

[Dave Long]

Microsoft's only clear message to game buyers is that they're HARDCORE! That's what a game like Gears of War says to the average buyer. This is exactly the problem they had last gen. Their popular games all looked like dark, angry, "gamer" games. Viva Pinata seems nice on the surface, but releasing it right after Gears of War and having GoW be all that anyone really talks about makes Viva Pinata an afterthought.

They haven't hit any kind of critical mass with regular Joe Consumer because too many of the games don't appeal to him. 3rd party stuff is available everywhere. There's no reason to take that into consideration when buying any console anymore. So it all comes back to exclusives... and while MS has some good games available for their system, they're all 20-30-something hardcore type titles.

Also, as word gets around that only MS is missing the Wiimote/Sixaxis functionality, that's going to hurt them even more because it makes the 360 seem even older than it is.

[Lorini]

I dunno, I think that article stating that the high attach rate for the 360 is a bad thing is silly. What would they say if the attach rate was half of what it is? It would still be a bad thing. According to them, MS can't win.

To me, the industry is doing exactly what it should. Nintendo is going for the families with the inexpensive system and the kid-friendly games, while MS/Sony are going for the hard core gamers. IMO, it just doesn't make sense to try to position a $500/$600 system at families, while $250 is at least within thought distance for many. The 360 at $400 is in between, and is probably targeted to hard-core families (or families with teens) and gamers.

I'm really lovin' my Xbox 360. When my Xbox got stolen when my house was burgled, I replaced it the next day (even though the insurance didn't give me all the money for it later). I just can't wait for Forza 2 and my son now has reason to look forward to Xmas, as I've promised him Gears of War (although I somehow misplaced the game, so I have a month to find it again...).

Lorini (off to play Viva Pinata)

[Kevin Grey]

I dunno, I think that article stating that the high attach rate for the 360 is a bad thing is silly. What would they say if the attach rate was half of what it is? It would still be a bad thing. According to them, MS can't win.


I think the point is that while software sales are great, hardware sales aren't nearly as good, which is indicative of the console still being bought almost exclusively by the hardcore gamer. Which is the same niche that Xbox 1 had. MS really wants to broaden the appeal of the console this time around and the attach rate right now seems to indicate that they necessarily meeting that goal.

[Dave Long]

Yup, that's what that attach ratio shows.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Nintendo catches Microsoft and leads this generation until very late in the game (three years?), Microsoft ends up with exactly the same number of 360s sold as original Xboxes and Sony is somewhere in between until their system becomes cheap enough that people really buy it in big numbers...when they will eventually overtake Nintendo.

That really depends on how quickly Sony can get manufacturing to catch up with demand for the system. I'm wondering if they'll have problems getting PS3 on the shelves throughout 2007...

[RickH]

Microsoft's only clear message to game buyers is that they're HARDCORE! That's what a game like Gears of War says to the average buyer. This is exactly the problem they had last gen. Their popular games all looked like dark, angry, "gamer" games.

Exactly.

[forgeforsaken]

What does the PS3 have that isn't hardcore. Seriously, look at the launch and future known lineups. PS3 is just as hardcore if not more so imo. And I like how Dave just discounts Viva because it launched near a hardcore gamer game.

[Dave Long]

I didn't say anything about PlayStation 3 at all, so I don't know why you're inferring that I did?

Viva Pinata is completely lost in the Gears of War hype. The game isn't getting the same kind of buzz and just won't, because the Xbox buyer isn't the type of gamer that plays that type of game. It's the same as last gen.

I like first person shooters on the Xbox platform. I like hardcore games on that platform because of Live. That stuff is great. I just don't think they've even come remotely close to shedding their image from last gen as the place you go for dark, angsty, 20-something gaming.

Plus, too much of their output now seems coldly calculated and much less artistic than the things that PS2 got last gen. The lack of Japanese development really does hurt the machine more than any of you will ever admit.

[ARogan]

If anyone has MicroCenter (http://www.microcenter.com/) around them, I received a circular today that they are selling 360's at 100 bucks off (199/299).

Note: The MicroCenter website is a big old pile of ass, so I wouldn't rely on it.

This has been going on for about 2 weeks now and is a fantastic (in store only) deal. The very first day I convinced a co-worker to head out there during lunch to pick one up, and then my brother jumped on it the next day.

[fuzzyslug]

Viva Pinata is completely lost in the Gears of War hype. The game isn't getting the same kind of buzz and just won't, because the Xbox buyer isn't the type of gamer that plays that type of game. It's the same as last gen.

I'm very interested in how well Viva sells (add one for my purchase last night). I'm not completely certain where it falls in the Xbox 360 demographic. Given that the 360 is likely to skew towards the older gamer, I've heard one argument (I think on the 1up podcast) that it is just perfect for those of us with young kids. There's a bunch of us.

[Lando]

I'm very interested in how well Viva sells (add one for my purchase last night). I'm not completely certain where it falls in the Xbox 360 demographic. Given that the 360 is likely to skew towards the older gamer, I've heard one argument (I think on the 1up podcast) that it is just perfect for those of us with young kids. There's a bunch of us.

I plan to pick it up for just that reason. I can't let my 6 year old play GoW or Dead Rising, but Viva Pinata will be just about perfect (at least from what I've read so far).

[Mark Asher]

I'm not sure about "alarming" but I do agree with the conclusion that it shows the system is really only being bought by hardcore gamers and has yet to make any headway into the casual market. Month after month has seen new games hit huge sales (GRAW, Oblivion, Dead Rising, Saint's Row) without any noticeable uptick in hardware sales.

And a lot of these hardcore gamers will end up with a Wii and PS3 at some point too, and then it's just a battle over who has the best version of a third party title. That's where Sony may wind up benefitting, if the system truly does have more powerful hardware.

Right now the PS3 is something of a non-factor due to non-existent availability. In a few months, though, it shouldn't be hard to get. If you're a hardcore console fan AND you have the money to spend, why wouldn't you get it to complement your 360?

[Mark Asher]

What does the PS3 have that isn't hardcore. Seriously, look at the launch and future known lineups. PS3 is just as hardcore if not more so imo. And I like how Dave just discounts Viva because it launched near a hardcore gamer game.

You have to give the PS3 some time. It's at launch now and has a very limited number of games. It's likely at some point to have games similar to the PS2 -- use that as your measuring stick.

[Dante Rising (X)]

Originally Posted by Dave Long
Microsoft's only clear message to game buyers is that they're HARDCORE! That's what a game like Gears of War says to the average buyer. This is exactly the problem they had last gen. Their popular games all looked like dark, angry, "gamer" games.


I don't think this is a message orchestrated by MS. Kameo, Viva Pinata, Top Spin 2, Cars, Dance Dance Revolution Universe, Lego Star Wars II, Open Season and Sonic the Hedgehog are all games that fall outside of the realm of hardcore gaming. So MS is addressing this market, but they are suffering from the same stereotype than afflicted the Gamecube, but in the opposite direction. And I doubt there is much they can do about it in the short term.

I got exhausted trying to convince people that the Gamecube wasn't a kiddie system. Even when I pointed out games like Eternal Darkness, Resident Evil, Resident Evil Zero, Resident Evil 4, Metal Gear Solid: Twin Snakes, Metroid Prime and others, many people couldn't get past the "Mario Factor".

Well, MS suffers from the "Halo Factor". Gears of War is going to help solidify that image, because it will outsell Viva Pinata and Sonic exponentially. MS needs to create their own Sly Cooper, Mario, or Ratchet and Clank, and release solid entries throughout the life of the system. Hopefully Rare's Banjo-Kazooie can begin to fill that void.

[tromik]

MS needs to create their own Sly Cooper, Mario, or Ratchet and Clank, and release solid entries throughout the life of the system. Hopefully Rare's Banjo-Kazooie can begin to fill that void.
His name was Blinx.

[Gary Whitta]

Microsoft is doing a much better job than they ever have before of appealing to younger audiences. Kameo, Sonic, Viva Pinata, Lego Star Wars, the Burker King titles (they count big-time IMO) and all the kids movie tie-ins add up to a respectable game library for kids. If someone asked me if 360 was a worthwhile system for kids I would have no hesitation in saying yes.

It's actually the most well-rounded system out there. Anything Nintendo does will always suffer from the kiddie curse that puts a lot of hardcore gamers off, and Sony so far really seems to be saying fuck you to anyone pre-teen this year with their outrageous price and launch window line-up of nothing but hardcore EXXXXXTREME!!?!?! titles.

We'll need to wait for real data on Viva Pinata but just anecdotally it looks to me like it's really catching on. We've had, what, half a dozen or more people on this forum talk about how they bought it because it's great to play for the kids. It could be a gateway title.

[Dante Rising (X)]

Dave Long Wrote:
The lack of Japanese development really does hurt the machine more than any of you will ever admit.

Japanese development is vital to the survival of the 360. And that is why you have this small sampling of upcoming Japanese titles:

Lost Planet
Blue Dragon
Cry On
Lost Odyssey
Armored Core 4
Culdcept Saga
Infinite Undiscovery
Operation Darkness
Diario
Earth Defense Force 3
Eternal Sonata
Blade Storm
Fatal Inertia
Dance Dance Revolution Universe
Gundam: Mobile Ops

[Dante Rising (X)]

His name was Blinx.

Voodoo Vince- and that was actually a solid title.

[Kevin Grey]

Microsoft is doing a much better job than they ever have before of appealing to younger audiences. Kameo, Sonic, Viva Pinata, Lego Star Wars, the Burker King titles (they count big-time IMO) and all the kids movie tie-ins add up to a respectable game library for kids.


But wasn't that the case with the first Xbox? Didn't it get movie tie-ins (I know Shrek was a launch title), Sonic games, and Lego Star Wars in addition to Voodoo Vince, Blinx, Grabbed by the Ghoulies, etc?

[Gary Whitta]

But wasn't that the case with the first Xbox? Didn't it get movie tie-ins (I know Shrek was a launch title), Sonic games, and Lego Star Wars in addition to Voodoo Vince, Blinx, Grabbed by the Ghoulies, etc?
True but most of those games weren't much good. I'd argue that Viva Pinata is the first AAA kids title on Xbox.

[Qenan]

Like I said above though, it's not like PS3 has anything in this area either, and in fact the 360 has a lot more. Wii is the only new console with real kid friendly appeal right now.

Well, except that the PS3 has backwards compatibility with a LOT of PS2 games. Of course, Wii has the same with Gamecube.

[Charles]

I thought Armored Core 4 was a PS3 exclusive. If it isn't, then yay! Even more reason not to have to spend money on a PS3.

Anyway, more on topic, I think MS should make a commercial out of this PA strip (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/11/17), stat. Play it for the next few months until the PS3 is actually in stock.

[Rorschach]

Viva Pinata is completely lost in the Gears of War hype. The game isn't getting the same kind of buzz and just won't, because the Xbox buyer isn't the type of gamer that plays that type of game. It's the same as last gen.

The cirular logic of this makes my head hurt. Are you saying hardcore only buys Xbox because that's what they did last gen? Is there any way to break out of such a self-fulfilling prophecy if the media juggernaut that is Viva Pinata (how many other games have their own cartoon ala Pokemon) will fail?

What about XBLA? Hexic, Bejewled, Poker, Yuma, etc... Those don't have a broad appeal?

Can you have it both ways? Can you cater to the hardcore with games like Gears and still have kids play Viva? Can Nintendo have hardcore games or is it Pokemon 24/7?

[Dante Rising (X)]

Armored Core, to the best of my knowledge, is still slated for the 360:

http://www.sega.com/games/game_temp.php?game=armoredcore4&lid=gp_armoredcore4&lpos=nav_pldwnlst

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/734/734053p1.html

[Jason Cross]

Microsoft needs to sell about 1 million units worldwide to hit that 8 million mark. Somebody better do something. :)


The only official sales account I have seen was Microsoft claiming 6 million units sold in their last quarterly earnings report - the report was from late October, but the quarter they're referencing ended September 30.

All the stories about 7 million units sold seem to reference nexgenwars.com, which may be accurate or not but they don't say where they get the info. I certainly don't think we have any clear data about sales since the big holiday releases for the system started (the week of Gears of War, Viva Pinata, Tony Hawk 8, and Call of Duty 3).

Today is the 360's one-year anniversary, so maybe they'll issue some sort of press release with a more firm number. I doubt it, though - they'll probably just say they're confident that they'll hit 10 million by the end of the year. Not quite the "10 million before the PS3 ships" target they had, but still a pretty significant head start.

Microsoft is doing a much better job than they ever have before of appealing to younger audiences. Kameo, Sonic, Viva Pinata, Lego Star Wars, the Burker King titles (they count big-time IMO) and all the kids movie tie-ins add up to a respectable game library for kids. If someone asked me if 360 was a worthwhile system for kids I would have no hesitation in saying yes.

Agreed. I also some of the Live Arcade titles are pretty good kid's games - they're maybe not specifically cutesy or aimed at kids, but they're non-gory and have rather simple control schemes, compared to retail stuff. Microsoft is not doing a very good job of pushing the 360 as a family machine right now, but it's probably just not a good time for that. While the PS3 is launching, and while the 360 is still on the expensive side, it's probably best to keep targeting core gamers. After the first price drop, and when the family-friendly library grows, it would be a good time to promote the family-friendly nature of the 360.

I haven't seen anyone dig into the PS3 parental controls very well, nor the Wii's. How are those? Can you effectively lock your kids out of playing mature games? Microsoft did a good job pushing that forward, and should make more noise about it.

[Qenan]

Microsoft's only clear message to game buyers is that they're HARDCORE! That's what a game like Gears of War says to the average buyer. This is exactly the problem they had last gen. Their popular games all looked like dark, angry, "gamer" games. Viva Pinata seems nice on the surface, but releasing it right after Gears of War and having GoW be all that anyone really talks about makes Viva Pinata an afterthought.

I guess I'm not "hardcore", because you hit it on the nail for me. Part of it is that when you have kids and they want to play games with you, you steer aware from things that are too scary. But I'm also just less impressed with games that appeal to players with testosterone poisoning. Been there, done that.

Edit: Speeling

[Gary Whitta]

I haven't seen anyone dig into the PS3 parental controls very well, nor the Wii's. How are those? Can you effectively lock your kids out of playing mature games? Microsoft did a good job pushing that forward, and should make more noise about it.
I was thinking it would be good if the Wii parental controls went both ways, so that kids could lock their parents out of playing it, LOL.

[VegasRobb]

I've had a couple parents ask me if I tried Viva Pinata and what I thought. They either know about the cartoon, saw the commericial themselves, or their children saw the commercial.

I forgot that the game had come out until someone mentioned it on here last Saturday. The $49 dollar price point is really nice and the manual is *excellent*. The manual devotes quite a bit of space to parents and addresses potential issues with Xbox Live. There's also an option for parents to control content. And there's "family mode" - two controllers can be used for the same game so older or more experienced gamers can help the younger gamers with difficult or challenging tasks.

Finally ... there's a Dance Dance game out for the 360? How do I miss this stuff?

[Dave Long]

I'm very interested in how well Viva sells (add one for my purchase last night). I'm not completely certain where it falls in the Xbox 360 demographic. Given that the 360 is likely to skew towards the older gamer, I've heard one argument (I think on the 1up podcast) that it is just perfect for those of us with young kids. There's a bunch of us.

You have to pay attention to where these arguments are coming from. When gamers think something is "good for kids", they're often coming at it from a gamer perspective and not a parental one. They don't have kids so they don't really know what's good for kids. They're just guessing.

My boys haven't said a word about Viva Pinata. They know we have a 360. None of their friends mention it. All the talk is about Wii and PS3 right now. I heard it at the bus stop this morning in fact.

Kids are confused about the PS3 too. Some of the boys there were arguing about whether it plays PS2 games or not. Either way, the SONY GENERATION makes it really hard for Microsoft to do any better than they did before.

I still think many Xbox/Xbox 360 owners are former PC gamers/PC gaming households. Microsoft stole from themselves and really hasn't penetrated into the true console gamer. This board's users pretty much prove that point. That's one reason the market continued to grow last generation and three platforms were viable. A significant number of people buying Xbox were just switching from the PC.

[Gordon Cameron]

You know, I'd have thought a game like Gears of War is exactly the sort of thing that would appeal to 10-14 year old boys. When I was 12 I saw "Aliens" for the first time and it was practically a religious experience. Whether parents would be comfortable buying such a game is another matter, I suppose.

[Dave Long]

It's M-rated and brutal as hell. It's definitely not the kind of game you buy for 10-14 year old boys.

[Dante Rising (X)]

Originally Posted By Jason Cross:
The only official sales account I have seen was Microsoft claiming 6 million units sold in their last quarterly earnings report - the report was from late October, but the quarter they're referencing ended September 30.

All the stories about 7 million units sold seem to reference nexgenwars.com, which may be accurate or not but they don't say where they get the info. I certainly don't think we have any clear data about sales since the big holiday releases for the system started (the week of Gears of War, Viva Pinata, Tony Hawk 8, and Call of Duty 3).

I think those nextgen wars numbers are inflated. This is what I posted on Gaming Trend:

As of June 30th, MS announced that they had sold 5.2 million units worldwide.
Since then, US sales numbers have been:

july: Xbox 360 = 206,000
august: Xbox 360 = 204,000
september: Xbox 360 = 259,458
october: Xbox 360= 221,889

That gives you 6,090,889 through October. Typically all other regions bring in about 40% of US sales on a monthly basis. So if the US had sales of 891,347 in the past 4 months x .40 (estimate for all other regions) = 356,538 additional units.

Total= 6,447,885 as of October 31st

Obviously this number will be off because I don't have exact international shipments. Saying the 360 is at 6.7-6.8 million seems like it would be more accurate as of 3 weeks into November. I'm not sure where nextgen wars is getting its facts. I also have not read about any sales spikes in other regions that would account for their number of over 7.2 million units.

[Gordon Cameron]

It's M-rated and brutal as hell. It's definitely not the kind of game you buy for 10-14 year old boys.

Pity. From what I played of it, it's the sort of game I'd have been more interested in at 10-14 than I am now.

*edit: Of course, it's hard to compare, because if I saw that game at 10-14 the graphics would have made my head explode.

[rjcc]

It's M-rated and brutal as hell. It's definitely not the kind of game you buy for 10-14 year old boys.

Maybe not you, but when I was 10 I was playing doom and by 14 SWAT and later GTA. I have not (yet) shot anyone.

[Lorini]

Dave and Kevin, my assertion is that the high attach rate doesn't really have much to do with the hardware sales. If the attach rate was cut in half, do you really think they'd sell twice as much hardware? In fact, I would say they would sell less hardware with a lower attach rate. In the end, I would think that the high attach rate will eventually lead to more sales, if only because developers like to see high attach rates for consoles. The more games out there, the more likely a consumer is to buy the console.

If there is a problem with the number of consoles sold vs the number of consoles they expect to sell, that is one thing. But trying to tie that to attach rates is not relevant in my opinion.

Lorini

[Sarkus]

Other than Wii which of the new consoles is really though? 360 does have some stuff though like Lego Star Wars, Viva, and the various movie tie in games like Cars, Open Season etc. I mean if you look at the PS3 software list they are even more mass market unfriendly at this point, this is including announced titles, not just released.

As others have pointed out the PS3 and Wii have backwards compatibility advantages that give them large kid friendly libraries to start. So even though they just came out I would argue that either is a better kid-friendly sytem than the 360 in terms of games. Since supply is/will be so limited this holiday for the PS3 only the Wii will matter.

My point is that you can sell 10-15 million units of a console focusing only on the hardcore market but that if MS wants to be truly mass market and sell over 20 million units of the 360 they will need a much bigger library of games that families and kids under 10 can play. Live Arcade is not the answer.

[Dave Long]

Dave and Kevin, my assertion is that the high attach rate doesn't really have much to do with the hardware sales. If the attach rate was cut in half, do you really think they'd sell twice as much hardware? In fact, I would say they would sell less hardware with a lower attach rate. In the end, I would think that the high attach rate will eventually lead to more sales, if only because developers like to see high attach rates for consoles. The more games out there, the more likely a consumer is to buy the console.

If there is a problem with the number of consoles sold vs the number of consoles they expect to sell, that is one thing. But trying to tie that to attach rates is not relevant in my opinion.

Lorini

It does have to do with hardware sales, because as hardware sales increase to acceptable levels, typically the attach rate goes down. More people with a console usually means less games sold per house, but the total number of games sold is much higher. It also broadens the selection and type of games that sell well enough to support any size publisher.

The reason it looks bad for 360 to have such a high attach rate right now is that there are so few consoles sold that it's clear the only people really buying games for 360 are the hardcore. Publishers are no longer built on the idea of selling just to them. They have to reach beyond them or they will suffer financially.

I think that's what the gist of this is.

[Dave Long]

I think those nextgen wars numbers are inflated. This is what I posted on Gaming Trend:

As of June 30th, MS announced that they had sold 5.2 million units worldwide.
Since then, US sales numbers have been:

july: Xbox 360 = 206,000
august: Xbox 360 = 204,000
september: Xbox 360 = 259,458
october: Xbox 360= 221,889

That gives you 6,090,889 through October. Typically all other regions bring in about 40% of US sales on a monthly basis. So if the US had sales of 891,347 in the past 4 months x .40 (estimate for all other regions) = 356,538 additional units.

Total= 6,447,885 as of October 31st

Obviously this number will be off because I don't have exact international shipments. Saying the 360 is at 6.7-6.8 million seems like it would be more accurate as of 3 weeks into November. I'm not sure where nextgen wars is getting its facts. I also have not read about any sales spikes in other regions that would account for their number of over 7.2 million units.

I just want to note that what you quoted wasn't from me.

[Kevin Grey]

Dave and Kevin, my assertion is that the high attach rate doesn't really have much to do with the hardware sales. If the attach rate was cut in half, do you really think they'd sell twice as much hardware?

No, but if they had sold twice as much hardware I'd expect the attach rate to be significantly lower. Casual gamers don't buy nearly the number of games that hardcore gamers do, so a system with a very high attach rate is generally indicative of a very hardcore audience. Yes, it's great that software sales are so good and it certainly helps devs justify development for a console. But if you ask the question "Is MS succeeding in their goal to broaden their appeal and sell many more consoles this time out," then I think a piece of that is looking at the attach rates and realizing that, one year into release, they are still selling to much the same audience that bought Xbox 1 despite all of the emphasis they put on casual friendly aspects of the system at the unveiling (Velocity Girl anyone?).

It's certainly not conclusive but combined with the fact that they aren't selling at the rate they were aiming for then I think it points to the idea that they aren't making the inroads they were hoping. But we're only a year in and the competition just launched so there is plenty of time to make up that distance.

[Charles]

It's M-rated and brutal as hell. It's definitely not the kind of game you buy for 10-14 year old boys.

10-12 maybe. At 13-14, you are seriously going to come across as an overprotective asshole parent if you try and limit access to stuff like that. Alternately, you'll just encourage them to sneak out and not tell you where they are going or what they are doing.

[Justin Fletcher]

At 13-14, you are seriously going to come across as an overprotective asshole parent if you try and limit access to stuff like that.
Isn't that the default perception for teenagers anyway?

Raise your kids how you like, but I'm with Dave.

[Charles]

If any parent thinks their kid isn't consuming that kind of stuff at that age anyway, they are deluding themselves. Speaking as someone who was once 13-14.

[Qenan]

Kids vary a lot. What was true for you is not a universal truth.

[Charles]

Kids vary a lot. What was true for you is not a universal truth.


You are right. Most young teenagers probably make sure to do exactly what their parents tell them without trying to get at things they are told they cannot see/use/have.

[Drastic]

On the other hand, it can be argued that getting away with things that are, technically, forbidden by the parental powers that be is a valuable thing. Using reverse psychology to direct that natural urge into cheerfully loud videogames has its points.

[Mark Asher]

If any parent thinks their kid isn't consuming that kind of stuff at that age anyway, they are deluding themselves. Speaking as someone who was once 13-14.

Charles, there's a difference between a parent being aware of what his children are exposed to and condoning same. I'm sure my kids have heard every curse word we can imagine, and then some, but I'm not going to swear around them and I don't want them swearing either. It's a matter of setting an example and enforcing standards.

Likewise, there are movies and other things we won't allow them to see. It's our way of letting them know some things are inappropriate and out of bounds. It's not about shielding them.

[Charles]

It's our way of letting them know some things are inappropriate and out of bounds. It's not about shielding them.

Alright, I can understand that. Even if it does reinforce my decision to never be a parent.

[Lorini]

I'm sure I'm just stupid, but I can't see the real downside of letting my kid play M rated games. So what?? Is he going to turn into some monster I don't know? I don't bother with parental controls because I feel they are a subtle implementation of a political agenda that I do not in any way support.

As far as cursing goes, he's been able to curse around me (damn, hell, ass) since he was three years old. He can't curse around anybody else, but if it's just me and him, I could not care less. Of course he in fact doesn't much curse around me or anybody else, but that wasn't the aim of the permission :)

When someone can show me some credible issues with me allowing my 15 (who could also do this at 12, btw) year old boy to play m rated games (or watch r rated movies), I'll listen, but no one has been able to do this yet. Sure, he may not understand what he's playing/watching, but that's a different issue.

Lorini

[gamadict]

I'm guessing GTA did a ton more to get 12-14 year boys begging their parents for a PS2 then any number of colorful, family-friendly Japanese exclusives

[forgeforsaken]

As others have pointed out the PS3 and Wii have backwards compatibility advantages that give them large kid friendly libraries to start. So even though they just came out I would argue that either is a better kid-friendly sytem than the 360 in terms of games.

I really don't see this as a valid arguement. You aren't going to buy your kid a $600 ps3 for the ps2 library, you'd just buy him the $100 ps2.

[Qenan]

No, but if you wanted to buy it for yourself, the backwards compatibility to a kid-friendly library might make a difference.

[Leah C]

I'm too lazy to read this thread, so apologies if this has already been mentioned. Compusa just sent out an email saying this:

Thanksgiving Day In-store ONLY Unadvertised BONUS Offers
Thursday, November 23, 9pm - midnight

FREE XBOX 360 Core System with the purchase of any unadvertised TV
$1799.99 & up!

So, if you're looking to buy an HDTV in that price range, may as well hit the three hour sale and get the free xbox to go with it.

[Kitsune]

What does the PS3 have that isn't hardcore. Seriously, look at the launch and future known lineups. PS3 is just as hardcore if not more so imo.

Are we talking about the testosterone, grrr, alpha male, grit, manny men hardcore segment? If so, I'm not sure where you see that in the PS3's lineup. Maybe it just the difference from how the machine looks with different territory's lineups, but to give you my perspective, here's what I see:

Everybody's/Hot Shots Golf 5 - Big-headed, cute wonderfully bright and vibrant and accessible golf games that played a lot like Camelot's Nintendo character golf games, but in many ways, even better.

My Summer Vacation 3 - Third in a series of successful games based around spending a summer vacation in a getaway place and doing all the normal things kids used to do in summer vacations. Known for appealing to parents with nostalgia, to children and just about anyone else with a sense of fun.

Railfan - The next huge evolution of train simulations. I'm not sure you can count train simulations in the grrr, testosterone category. Choo-choo! ^_^

Aquanaut's Holiday: Inner Mind Adventure - Yes, finally! After all these years a sequel! The underwater aquarium, vacation diving game is back!

The Eye of Judgement - A Magic the Gathering/Yu-Gi-Oh type collectible card game with typically vibrant fantasy creature and environmental design.

Afrika - Okay, maybe this is a really politically incorrect shmup. But in all other cases, it looks to be some sort of sim revolving around African wildlife. I'm really anxious to see what it is, seeing as how its coming from a premiere team from within Sony's development studios.

Singstar - You know, the karaoke rhythm game series Sony makes? Yeah.

Ratchet & Clank - Yeeeeeehaw, I'm so glad this one isn't stopping or going out of Insomniac's control like Spyro did.

White Knight Story - Yeah, pretty much the exact opposite from the typical Xbox image. Bright, cheerful and whimsical, somewhat like a Zelda game, or all of Level 5's stuff thus far.

Monster Hunter 3 - Another RPG series that appeals to a broad swath of people.

There's also the fact that RPGs like Final Fantasy serve a wide variety of tastes, so they appeal to some hardcore extreme gamer types, their appeal is much broader.

I tried to limit myself to just promising, good-looking games so I didn't list all the stuff like Genji and Bladestorm or the bazillion inevitable Gundam games that may turn out to be muck. Or that Naughty Dog game which WILL be awful, guaranteed. :P

But on that note, I would say that PGR3, Lost Planet, Blue Dragon, Culdcept Saga and Trusty Bell aren't exactly aiming for those grindy goatee nu-metal men either.

On a broader level, this might be because things you might think would become that way, get interpreted differently by Japanese people. Take rap, for example. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86iUu-9qfIo) I'm pretty sure if Aquanaut's Holiday was made in America, the main character would need to avenge his dead sister and have a permanent growl on his face, perhaps. :P

I'm not even going to get into to the children argument, because it makes me think people don't realize what children play these days...I certainly didn't limit myself to the types of tites you guys keep mentioning, nor did I crave blood, guts and boobs either.

-Kitsune

[Dante Rising (X)]

Originally Posted By Dave Long:
I just want to note that what you quoted wasn't from me.

Oops. Sorry about that Dave. I corrected the mistake.

[DennyA]

I'm a little concerned about the 360's position because there seems to be a lack of more accessible games on the system. If you are a hard core gamer it makes sense to buy it but it's not a kid friendly system by any stretch.... Gears is great but where is the game that will sell the system to the parents who's kid is under the age of 15?

Viva Pinata...

Cars...

Lego Star Wars II...

Guitar Hero II (soon)....

And about 15 of the Xbox Live Arcade games.

[RepoMan]

Take rap, for example. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86iUu-9qfIo)
Don't mind if I do. That rocked. Thanks Kitsune!

[Desslock]

Either way, the SONY GENERATION makes it really hard for Microsoft to do any better than they did before..

Well, the console industry has a lot of history of changing horses in different generations, although obviously nobody has ever had as big a lead as Sony had with the PS2.

[Frumple]

Actually went in to grab one of those FutureShop Holiday Pro bundles but they changed it! No longer comes with GoW and Ridge Racer. Grrr.

[Coca Cola Zero]

The 360's high attach rate has little to do with the games being too hardcore and much to do with the console costing $400. Who the fuck buys a $400 console and then only buys one game a year for it? Nobody, that's who.

[Dave V]

Actually went in to grab one of those FutureShop Holiday Pro bundles but they changed it! No longer comes with GoW and Ridge Racer. Grrr.

That's odd, I got that bundle today from Futureshop, it came with Live Arcade, GoW, Graw and, instead of Ridge Racer, Gun.

[Frumple]

Well the website no longer lists it having 4 games and our Future Shop by work said the bundle is "sold out". Thanks for the tip, maybe some less traveled ones might have some left! Onward!