UCLA tasers student

[Robert Sharp]

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/november2006/161106taser.htm

This story is odd....apparently, you have to have your ID in the library at UCLA (maybe just after 11pm...not sure). So anyway, security decides to check IDs, including the ID of a middle eastern descended student. He fails to show it (I think he had it, but refused). He then decides to leave the library rather than show the ID. They stop him, and he goes limp (classic civil disobedience move). Instead of arresting him, they tell him to get up. When he refuses, they taser him...repeatedly. They ask him to get up, he stays limp, they taser him.

Sounds like torture to me. Anyway, I heard about it today on the Michelangelo something or other show on OutQ radio (Sirius). It's an interesting story about where our nation is heading.

[Stroker Ace]

Hey, at least it wasn't in AL!

[skedastic]

Sometimes I wish I could Taser my students.

[Flowers]

I thought UCLA was supposed to have a good film school.

[MatthewF]

Someone posted the video of this in EE. Other students tried to invervene, and the cops repeatedly threatened to taser them if they got any closer. A girl who asked for badge numbers was also threatened with being tasered.

[Stroker Ace]

Hopefully Qt3's resident LA cop will be by soon to scare us out of our PJs!

[Glenn]

He was refusing to follow orders.

Always follow a policeman's directives.

Seriously, how hard is that to figure out?

[Stroker Ace]

"I want you to touch yourself, right there. No, lower."

[MikeSofaer]

Someone posted the video of this in EE. Other students tried to invervene, and the cops repeatedly threatened to taser them if they got any closer. A girl who asked for badge numbers was also threatened with being tasered.So? They can't actually taser everyone. And if they do, that video would have been WAY more funny. So call their bluff so I can watch the results!

[MatthewF]

Themselves.

[Glenn]

Hopefully Qt3's resident LA cop will be by soon to scare us out of our PJs!It says a lot about the Never-Neverland that you inhabit that your more afraid of corrupt cops than actual criminals.

[Stroker Ace]

Who said I was afraid of cops? I just want Marcus to come give us some dirt. Stop projecting, there's no one in your bushes.

[LesJarvis]

He was refusing to follow orders.

Always follow a policeman's directives.

Seriously, how hard is that to figure out?

Agree, my sympathy for this guy = zero. He was not being asked to do anything even remotely unreasonable, and it sounds like he was basically just being a prick about it.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

It sounds like he may have started it by being a prick, but it also doesn't sound like it was a very proportionate response.

[Flowers]

"I want you to touch yourself, right there. No, lower."

But this building only has one floor!

[MikeSofaer]

Resisting the temptation to lay the hurt on someone who is making a pretentious ass of himself, but is not otherwise in any way dangerous, should be a job requirement for a university police officer.

[Tim Partlett]

I don't think a taser is enough punishment for someone being a prick. They should cave in his head, rip out his spine and deliver it to his mother on a platter. That'll learn 'em.

[LesJarvis]

It sounds like he may have started it by being a prick, but it also doesn't sound like it was a very proportionate response.

Oh, definitely not. The police were pricks too, but is that really news? I'm not saying he deserved it, I'm saying there was a very easy way for him to avoid the entire situation, but he was too much of a prick to choose that option. As such I don't have any sympathy for him.

[Steve Canyon]

Agree, my sympathy for this guy = zero. He was not being asked to do anything even remotely unreasonable, and it sounds like he was basically just being a prick about it.

I am glad nobody tasers me everytime I act like a prick!

[Shadarr]

I fail to see how this guy was being a prick. You have to show ID to get into the library. He didn't show ID, and left the library. That should be the end of it.

Also, any cop who refuses to give his badge number should be fired. The original guy may have been refusing to comply, but the bystanders complied with the police request and then asked for a badge number. That's exactly what you're supposed to do when police start over-stepping their authority.

[Raife]

I am glad nobody tasers me everytime I act like a prick!

We're working on that one, Tim. We'll be taking shifts.

[Ben]

AFAIK, the actual facts make the tasering more reasonable. The dude was asked to show ID, refused to do so, was asked to leave, refused to do that either. The library security guard called the cops to remove him, and then based on who you believe he either refused again or started to leave but then freaked out when a cop grabbed his arm. There are also conflicting reports of when he started doing the limpness thing and if he got tasered after being handcuffed, etc. etc. The camera video shows very little actual action and there are all sorts of unreliable eyewitness reports.

The cops didn't stop him as he was trying to leave, though, they were trying to remove him.

I have absolutely no sympathy for the guy(when a cop tells you stand up or get tasered again, stand the fuck up!), but the cops could've handled this like a million different better ways.

Edit for shadarr and others:
You have to show ID to be in the library during a certain time period at night, during the day you don't need it. He was already in the library and refused to leave.

[Robert Sharp]

I have absolutely no sympathy for the guy(when a cop tells you stand up or get tasered again, stand the fuck up!), but the cops could've handled this like a million different better ways.

Edit for shadarr and others:
You have to show ID to be in the library during a certain time period at night, during the day you don't need it. He was already in the library and refused to leave.

Yes, your edit is right. However, the first thing I quoted here is a bit disturbing. Are you saying police should be able to taser anyone who peacefully refuses to comply? Wouldn't arresting the guy make more sense? You can handcuff him, even subdue him, without tasering him if he is not being violent.

[Flowers]

Oh, definitely not. The police were pricks too, but is that really news? I'm not saying he deserved it, I'm saying there was a very easy way for him to avoid the entire situation, but he was too much of a prick to choose that option. As such I don't have any sympathy for him.


See, I told you that if you watched the Live Aid Dvd around the holidays, you would be all out of sympathy before you knew it. Did you listen? No. Had you not hugged all those orphans last thursday, you know, the ones with the missing face disorder, you wouldn't be in this predicament. But you went, and you did, and now you here you are.

Used to be, in this town, a man'd pace himself, apportion his sympathy in a careful yet kind manner. I don't know what happened, but ever since them celebrity concerts for farmers been gettin' held, seems some folk'r all sympathized out.

I swear, what's regular folk gotta have happen to 'em these days to get a little sympathy? Ain't it enough to get violated unwarranted by a peace officer's truncheon, or your dick raped clean by a panther? It's like people get rid of all their sympathy as soon as they can, worryin' about the troops, tastin' a delicious dinner and wishin' somebody in Darfur could sit next to them at the table, providin' they was dressed properly. Then when people like old Mostafa come around, and get their rights shat upon, in deerect contraventions of the United States Constitution, fellers are willin' to let the episode pass with out so much as a, "Sorry, bud."

Now, I kin understand gettin' all teary eyed at the prospect of a girl havin' her genteels mutilated unrequested, but that's one of them world-wide problems. Them girls got sympathies pourin' in from as far as Red China. Hell, some of them ladies even wind up gettin' full ride scholars to Ivy League Universities at the behest of Ms. Oprah Winfrey herself. I must admit, sometimes, when I think of the trouble Old Willy gets me into, I'd be hard pressed, durin' my weaker moments, not to trade at least some of the good times me and Willy had for some fancy book learnin' on a rich lady's check.

Well, I went a bit adrift here, I guess. The moral of the story is;

Tasering somebody for tellin' authority to take a hike is Unamerican, and supporting those types of transgressions against what it means to be free with your silence is the same kind of behavior that gets little girls' bits cut off and trampled in the dirt. I don't like it when little girls' bits get cut off, and neither does Miss Oprah Winfrey, and speaking for her, we are both sorry that you do.

[Steve Canyon]

We're working on that one, Tim. We'll be taking shifts.

And you wonder why I use an alias!

[Ben]

Are you saying police should be able to taser anyone who peacefully refuses to comply? Wouldn't arresting the guy make more sense? You can handcuff him, even subdue him, without tasering him if he is not being violent.

Well, I do believe the police should have the legal authority to taser people who are peacefully refusing to comply as I can imagine a hypothetical where that's acceptable. This doesn't appear to be one of those situations and I do agree that the police were out of line. We don't see the beginning of the incident, but it seems like the police went straight to tasering from asking nicely without ever trying to physically force him to leave. You'd think they could tackle, handcuff, and carry him out.

My lack of sympathy for the dude doesn't mean I'm condoning the police action.

[Jasper Phillips]

Agree, my sympathy for this guy = zero. He was not being asked to do anything even remotely unreasonable, and it sounds like he was basically just being a prick about it.
WTF? What if he didn't have his ID with him? When did we become such a police state that you're required to have a valid ID to be in a public place?

The correct response to police over reaching their power is to not stand for it -- civil disobeidence, exactly as this guy did. Especially in the case where it seems the police motivation was based on racial profiling. If they thought they had enough to arrest him, they should have done it. I rather suspect they didn't have enough to arrest him.

It's like when the police knock on your door, and ask to come in. The correct answer is not to meekly comply, but instead to ask them if they have a warrant. Sure, they still might kick in the door and taser you -- but that is not within their power under the law, and you can follow up their abuse in court.

[Matthew Gallant]

I have absolutely no sympathy for the guy(when a cop tells you stand up or get tasered again, stand the fuck up!), but the cops could've handled this like a million different better ways.
Ridiculous. Tasers are to be used to protect police officers, not as cattle prods. A person who refuses to be arrested should be tased. A person who just refuses to move shouldn't. You just cuff hands and feet and pick them the fuck up.

[Ben]

What if he didn't have his ID with him?

Then he has to leave.


When did we become such a police state that you're required to have a valid ID to be in a public place?


He wasn't in a public place.



Especially in the case where it's obvious the police motivation was based on racial profiling.

This is completely unsupported by anything. The police were called by the library staff.

[Robert Sharp]

It was a random check, wasn't it? What do you mean called by the staff? Is UCLAs library not open to the public? Some (many) university libraries are open to the public, though only students can check out books.

The details on this incident are sketchy, but apparently the student was tasered multiple times. That's at least excessive. I'd say once was probably unnecessary.

[Ergo]

I feel dirty for having visited one of Alex Jones' lunatic websites.

[Flowers]

The long and short of it is that good Americans who are proud of their freedom do not let people trample the rights that other Americans have died to protect.

Jarvis and Ben should move to Red fucking China if they hate free people and our freedom so much that they want to eletrocute them just for being free.

[shift6]

WTF? What if he didn't have his ID with him? When did we become such a police state that you're required to have a valid ID to be in a public place?
Is UCLA's university library a public place? How about UCLA's Student Union? How about the classrooms? Were the security staff requesting "state ID" or just a valid university ID?

[charmtrap]

I can see the point of having to have ID on campus. I can see the point of leaving when being asked to leave.

I can't see how no ID + mouthing off to rent-a-cops (who, let's face it, are just begging to be mouthed off to) = EAT TASER, BITCH.

[Rimbo]

See, I told you that if you watched the Live Aid Dvd around the holidays, you would be all out of sympathy before you knew it. Did you listen? No. Had you not hugged all those orphans last thursday, you know, the ones with the missing face disorder, you wouldn't be in this predicament. But you went, and you did, and now you here you are.

Used to be, in this town, a man'd pace himself, apportion his sympathy in a careful yet kind manner. I don't know what happened, but ever since them celebrity concerts for farmers been gettin' held, seems some folk'r all sympathized out.

I swear, what's regular folk gotta have happen to 'em these days to get a little sympathy? Ain't it enough to get violated unwarranted by a peace officer's truncheon, or your dick raped clean by a panther? It's like people get rid of all their sympathy as soon as they can, worryin' about the troops, tastin' a delicious dinner and wishin' somebody in Darfur could sit next to them at the table, providin' they was dressed properly. Then when people like old Mostafa come around, and get their rights shat upon, in deerect contraventions of the United States Constitution, fellers are willin' to let the episode pass with out so much as a, "Sorry, bud."

Now, I kin understand gettin' all teary eyed at the prospect of a girl havin' her genteels mutilated unrequested, but that's one of them world-wide problems. Them girls got sympathies pourin' in from as far as Red China. Hell, some of them ladies even wind up gettin' full ride scholars to Ivy League Universities at the behest of Ms. Oprah Winfrey herself. I must admit, sometimes, when I think of the trouble Old Willy gets me into, I'd be hard pressed, durin' my weaker moments, not to trade at least some of the good times me and Willy had for some fancy book learnin' on a rich lady's check.

Well, I went a bit adrift here, I guess. The moral of the story is;

Tasering somebody for tellin' authority to take a hike is Unamerican, and supporting those types of transgressions against what it means to be free with your silence is the same kind of behavior that gets little girls' bits cut off and trampled in the dirt. I don't like it when little girls' bits get cut off, and neither does Miss Oprah Winfrey, and speaking for her, we are both sorry that you do.

i don't really have a response... i just wanted to read this again

[Dave47]

How can people in this thread be siding with the police on this one? Just because someone may have broke the law doesn't give police officers unlimited power to discipline them. This is doubly true in situtions such as this one, when the violation in question basically boils down to "refusing to follow an officer's orders."

Using a taser on a non-violent party and refusing to provide your badge number should both be grounds for immediate dismissal.

[Lunch of Kong]

Sometimes I wish I could Taser my students.

I agree. Seeing as how you're the one responsible for putting them to sleep in the first place, it should fall on you to wake them back up.

:-)

[Zarathustra]

Man, listen to him squeal!

[Ben]

It was a random check, wasn't it? What do you mean called by the staff? Is UCLAs library not open to the public? Some (many) university libraries are open to the public, though only students can check out books.

It's unclear if they ask everyone for their ID at whatever time the library stops being open to the public. But it's definitely not a public place.

Here is, as near as I can tell, the course of events:

1. Library security guard(not a real cop) asks dude for ID at whatever time you need to have your ID to stay in the library
2. Dude refuses
3. Security guard asks him to leave
4. Dude refuses
5. Security guard calls police
6. Real police arrive, afterwards we aren't sure what happened.

The people doing the tasing aren't rent-a-cops.

[jfletch]

I went to UCLA. You need an ID after 11pm, because Powell is packed. There's not enough room for students who need to study, let alone the public (and the rest of the libraries are closed by then). CSOs walk around and make everyone flash it, or they kick them out. During the day it is a public place.

[LesJarvis]

Tasering somebody for tellin' authority to take a hike is Unamerican, and supporting those types of transgressions against what it means to be free with your silence is the same kind of behavior that gets little girls' bits cut off and trampled in the dirt. I don't like it when little girls' bits get cut off, and neither does Miss Oprah Winfrey, and speaking for her, we are both sorry that you do.

I think ultimately you're right, and my inital reaction, to immediately point at this guy and call him a douchebag, was uncalled for. After reading up on it some more and watching the video (which I couldn't do while I was at work,) I think the police reaction was awful regardless of whether he was being profiled or not, and barring evidence that they had good reason to do it they should be dealt with in the appropriate manner. I will say that I do want to know more about what happened before making any kind of judgement, though.

[MikeSofaer]

I don't understand why people feel the need to choose here.

The student was an arrogant prick, and should be mercilessly mocked, but he's a college student, it's not unheard of.

The cops were sadistic bastards, and should be fired. Cops can't be allowed to do that sort of thing, particularly if the only provocation is a college student being an arrogant prick. It's not unheard of.

[bigdruid]

Once again, Flowers shows why he's the frontrunner for Poster of the Year.

And, yeah, I'm way more afraid of violent police than criminals. I can at least defend myself from some punk who wants my wallet. Luckily, the vast majority of cops don't abuse their authority.

So was this LAPD, or University Police? Because when I was in Berkeley, the University PD was amazingly mellow, given the shit they had to put up with. Those guys must've taken horse tranquilizers before going on duty, because you just couldn't get a rise out of them no matter what you did, short of physical violence.

[Jason McCullough]

I swear, what's regular folk gotta have happen to 'em these days to get a little sympathy?

Be Rush Limbaugh.

Also, Jesus, if these aren't real cops I'm not sure why I should be upset with the student at all.

[Jojo]

I have nothing meaningful to add to the discussion at this point, because Flowers said it all so eloquently.

Flowers, I <3 you. I will be your QT3 groupie.

[olaf]

They should have whipped out that telescoping metal baton thing and smacked him around some instead.

[Ryan A]

This wouldn't have happened if the cops had whips.

[Grifman]

We don't see the beginning of the incident, but it seems like the police went straight to tasering from asking nicely without ever trying to physically force him to leave. You'd think they could tackle, handcuff, and carry him out.

"Physically forcing" him to leave could result in injury to the police or the individual. Tasering is painful but general not harmful. Police also prefer not to get involved in physical altercations. Too many things can go wrong - the officer can be hurt, the perp can take his weapon, etc. Overall, it is much safer for both if a taser is used. Yeah, it hurts like hell, but if the cop says he's going to taser you if you don't stand up, then don't be an idiot, stand up.

[MatthewF]

Tasering is painful but general not harmful.

O RLY? (http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/1224taserlist24-ON.html)

An article cites that the student also stated he had a medical condition. Not knowing what condition that is, do you think the appropriate action is to taser someone over and over? The excuse of not wanting to be involved in a physical altercation goes right out the window after the first taser jolt, also. The guy was completely limp for the rest.

They shocked him repeatedly to prove a point. That is not a valid reason for taser usage. Would you consider tasering a limp person an appropriate response of force? No. You handcuff him and then you carry him out.

[bago]

He was not being asked to do anything even remotely unreasonable, and it sounds like he was basically just being a prick about it.

One of your most precious rights as an american is the right to be an asshole.

[Peter Frazier]

I would hate to be a cop/security guard at a campus. The amount of shit you would have to put up with from precious smart-arses with little real-world experience would be overwhelming.
That said, what would be the appropriate response to this act of dickishness?

[Ben]

That said, what would be the appropriate response to this act of dickishness?

Based on my understanding of the events, grab the kid by the arm and mandhandle him out the door. If he plays the "act limp" game, handcuff him and drag him out.

[rhinohelix]

Based on my understanding of the events, grab the kid by the arm and mandhandle him out the door. If he plays the "act limp" game, handcuff him and drag him out.

But due to lawsuits, I believe Grifman has it right: its safer for the guy to be tased than it is to fight him out. Given the way it sounded when he started yelling about them touching his arm, I know what I would be thinking.

The film really doesn't let you know what is going on for most of it. About the only time its clear what's happening is the last time they taser him, when he is refusing to stand until they taser him and you see his legs kick up.

I am of the mind that if he wouldn't stand up, once he stopped resisting, you don't tase him. While it seems egregious, I don't know what the LAPD/UCPD/CHP/ASPCA policy is regarding the use of tasers, which is actually the key here to the whole deal. If this is within policy, then the cops are golden; if they are off the reservation, Mr. Crazy Student gets to make a trip to the UC ATM.

Me personally, as long as what the cop is telling me to do is legal, I would comply as opposed to being tased. If its not proper, I would document and file a complaint, or perhaps have them call a supervisor to the scene on the spot. If an officer is acting improperly, call 911 and tell them so. Nothing will draw attention faster and even bad cops will straighten up. Make sure you can back up your story.

All that's going to happen by resisting is that I am going to end up doing what they want anyway, either more or less trouble. If you physically resist, things will escalate until you lose, unless you can stop bullets, Neo. All you are doing is adding charges and a prosecutor's resolve to get real punishment. I have been on both sides of that fence, and I would rather walk away than be carried away or tased away, whether the cop was right or not.

[Rollory]

Once you've been tasered, you can't stand up. They told him to do so, and tasered him repeatedly when he didn't.

That's torture. And not the remotely-arguably-necessary sort, either.

They refused to give their badge numbers and threatened to taser the people asking for them.

That's illegal.

It originated with a request for ID. Ok. I don't care what rules were set up, a library - particularly a library at a public university - is a public enough place that in America by any sane standard YOU DON'T NEED to show ID and CERTAINLY shouldn't get tasered for refusing to do so and preparing to walk out.

What amazes me is how many otherwise intelligent conservatives are jumping on this and saying oh, obviously no racial profiling here, he got what he deserved, cops just doing their jobs, blah blah blah.

This is ... unbelievable. Sure, the cops are just doing their jobs, until they make a mistake with YOU, until YOU'RE the one whose papers suddenly aren't in order for some strange reason. None of em believe it can happen though. Goddamned idiots.

This incident is part and parcel of the pattern of police forces filling up with people who are there because of the power trip, and for no other reason. Which is a pattern that will only get worse and more destructive as long as no drastic changes are made to how police forces work.

[Angie Gallant]

According to the eyewitnesses the order of events was as such:
Library Security asks for ID. Student feels he is being targeted by racial profiling and refuses. They request that he leaves and he is pissy and takes his damn sweet time getting out.
They call the real cops.
Student is on the way out the door (backpack on his shoulders) when the real cops show up and grab his arms.
He freaks and tells them to "Get off of me!"
They tazer him for being uncooperative.
Camera-phone film as seen up above begins.

According to the cops:
Library Security asks for ID. Student refuses. They request that he leave and he refuses.
They call the real cops.
He's still not leaving and trying to start a riot when the cops arrive.
He tells people to get violent. The police tazer him.
Video as above begins.

[Dave47]

According to the cops:
Library Security asks for ID. Student refuses. They request that he leave and he refuses.
They call the real cops.
He's still not leaving and trying to start a riot when the cops arrive.
He tells people to get violent. The police tazer him.
Video as above begins.
Even if this implausible story turns out to be 100% true, that doesn't justify repeatedly tasering an incapacitated suspect. The fact that the police used electricity, instead of boots and nightsticks, to assault a defenseless person doesn't make it ok.

This is assault, and, having seen the video, I'd support criminal charges being brought against the officers involved.

[Steve Canyon]

This wouldn't have happened if the cops had whips.

Or canes.

[wildpokerman]

It says a lot about the Never-Neverland that you inhabit that your more afraid of corrupt cops than actual criminals.


You mean the never never land these guys lived in?

http://www.walika.com/sr/images/wash-contcong.jpg

[Rimbo]

Folks, remember something.

The police that get called in for a disturbance at UCLA will be LAPD.

I mean, that's really all you need to know, isn't it?

[charmtrap]

The police that get called in for a disturbance at UCLA will be LAPD.


http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/

[Rimbo]

Yeah, like that makes a fuckin' difference.

[charmtrap]

Yeah, like that makes a fuckin' difference.

er, k, well you said LAPD, so...that's sort of a fuckin' difference, no?

[ElGuapo]

Watch the video. Are you guys who support the police kidding? I'm as law abiding as you get, and I would have rallied the people there and torn the fucking cops apart. Bastards.

Seriously. Watch the video. The guy was not a threat at all, and the cops were robotic, moronic ASSHOLES.

[bago]

Anyone who threatens debilitating pain in response to a badge number request is FAR outside of acceptable boundaries.

I am personally of the opinion that all non-black data collected by the government should be available to the public. That's why they are public servants.

What they do should be public.

Anyone who has the right to taser/spray/shoot people should have all of their actions recorded and available to the public.

[Rimbo]

er, k, well you said LAPD, so...that's sort of a fuckin' difference, no?

apparently not

besides...the "la" in "ucla" does not stand for "louisiana"

[Destarius]

*frowns* Tasering someone who refuses to get up appears to be excessive force. Just cuff him and haul him off.

edit: Watched the video, they seemed to be dragging him off fine at the end.

[Thomas Wilde]

I just watched the video, and I was wondering about something. It sounds like the guards tasered him, then were yelling for him to get up. Wouldn't tasering him have made that effectively impossible for a couple of minutes?

[Dave47]

I just watched the video, and I was wondering about something. It sounds like the guards tasered him, then were yelling for him to get up. Wouldn't tasering him have made that effectively impossible for a couple of minutes?
That's kind of our point.

[Marcus]

Man you guys are lucky I have to go to work and wont be home till tonight.

Needless to say that once you are tasered you can easliy stand and walk again with in 5-10 seconds or less. Yeah it hurts but there are no long lasting effects.

There is no lasting pain associated with the taser and I lolled at the deaths thing because if you look closer at it you can see that the people prolly would have died with any type of force the police used.

Anyways I'll be back later when I get done protecting and serving!

Oh yeah and hopefully I get to taser someone!

[Dave47]

There is no lasting pain associated with the taser and I lolled at the deaths thing because if you look closer at it you can see that the people prolly would have died with any type of force the police used.
He was screaming "I have a medical condition!" while the police shocked him. Given the fact that he posed absolutely no threat to them, It doesn't matter whether his claim was true or not. In those circumstances, the actions of the police were immoral, and are deserving of punishment. If a person who is behaving in a violent fashion is in a state that "any type of force" will kill them, I will forgive police officers who accidental kill him. If a person who is behaving in a completely non-violent fashion is tasered, then the police deserve to bear full responsibility for any harm her suffers.

Send these guys to jail. They overstepped the bounds of their authority, and they should face the consequences for their actions.

[Marcus]

Jesus you are retarded.

How do you know they over steped their bounds? Do you know what their department policy is on the use of force? I am going to guess not. You are just getting your little panties in a bunch because the kid was screaming while he was being tasered. Guess what? It fuckin hurts and you better be damn sure you'd scream. As for the supposed medical condition I'd have to hear more about it because for all I know he just has a bad case of herpies. Also tasers don't effect people with pacemakers and shit and tasers are generally the safeest use of force we have.

Each department has a policy in regards to use of force and I am betting that the UCPDs policy states they can use a taser on a noncompliant / uncooperative suspect.

Also private property is still private even if its open to the public. They have the right to challenge anyone they see fit for any reason.

[Matthew Gallant]

Do you know what their department policy is on the use of force? I am going to guess not.
Do you know what you should and shouldn't do to a handcuffed guy who is just sitting on the ground if you were a decent human being? If you guessed "taser him if he sasses you" belongs in the 'should' column, I am going to guess not.

Common sense will tell you that tasers are to be used for situations where there is a danger to the officers. A handcuffed guy who wouldn't stand up was not a danger to these officers.

[bago]

Because threatening to taser someone asking for your badge number is out of bounds?

[Destarius]

Seriously, Marcus, while I agree that the department use of force policy for the Taser may include passive physical resistance, I didn't see any problems for the two beefy police officers in the video to simply haul him away.

Is there any other good reason to inflict pain on a suspect? Why not just take out a baton and give him a few good whacks while you're at it? There are other techniques lower on the scale of force which would have been more effective/acceptable. In this case, the taser did absolutely nothing. They hauled him off - something they could have done from the very beginning.

edit: More joyous use of taser by police officers (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2005/05/29/m1a_TASER_0529.html).

[Angie Gallant]

Well, what I gather from his spokesperson is this:

The kid did have his id on him. He was the first one asked to show id that night. That twitched his racial profiling nerve and he offered to show his id if they asked all the white kids around too. They declined and told him to get out.

He finished up the paper he was working on and gathered up his things to go. His backpack was on his arm and he was making his way to the stairs when the real cops showed up. They grabbed him.

Now he's already suspecting that he's being singled out because he is a minority. Now the cops are grabbing him to do something as minor as walk out of the library. So he decides this is an act of racism and that he needs to protest it. He goes limp because he believes that peaceful, non-violent protest is the way to approiately express his frustration and anger with the situation.

He keeps it up even though it hurts because he's really goddamn mad that he's being singled out for his skin color.



Dude, if I got kicked out of a library for being an atheist or a woman, or I felt that was the reason for it, I'd act up as much as, if not more than he did.

[Rollory]

He actually is guilty of a crime.

That of maiastas - showing insufficient respect to the agents of the empire.

Free men and equal citizens can't be guilty of such a thing. Subjects of a state can be.

Of course we are always told to just do whatever the police say and to file a complaint afterward if we think there was something wrong about it. And of course complaints are always so effective.

We are taught not to perform this crime, even if it isn't codified.

[shift6]

How can people in this thread be siding with the police on this one?

Are you guys who support the police kidding?
I don't think most people here are supporting either the police or the victim. This was obviously a confrontation of douchebags. The kid was clearly being belligerant even before the first tazer shot and continued in the ~30 seconds between that and the second one where he had plenty of energy to yell out his little speech, and yet still refused to stand up and be escorted out. Tasing was wrong, and the kid was wrong. There's hardly any gray area about it.

I didn't once hear anyone threaten tasing for the badge number thing. Anyone have a legitimate reference for that? I heard people ask and the officers just ignored the requests. The only other time was right at the end at about 6:40 where an officer said "you'll get tased too" but it appears to be after directing someone to clear out.

[skedastic]

Oh yeah and hopefully I get to taser someone!

Why is that, Officer? Does causing severe pain to other people make you briefly forget about your tiny, tiny little package? Or does your psychopathy stem from some other deficiency?

[Steve Canyon]

I hope Marcus gets to taser someone and comes back with video for us to watch on YouTube. Go Marcus! Don't take any crap! You got a tasar, lawman. :)

[Tim Partlett]

This guy Marcus can't be for real can he? I'd have thought you would get fired from the police force for saying you'd love to taser someone.

[Ryan A]

Good lord, turn on your sarcasm detector.

[Rimbo]

Guys, ease up on Marcus. I think he was just making a little joke.

Although... he is LAPD. :O The REAL one. :O :O :O

Rodney King! Rodney King!

[Andrew Mayer]

IThis was obviously a confrontation of douchebags.

Humans are always going to be douchebags.

Civil rights are for douchebags.

Most of our huge civil rights cases in this country are for or about douchbags. Miranda of "Miranda Rights" fame was a killer and a rapist.

[noun]

Needless to say that once you are tasered you can easliy stand and walk again with in 5-10 seconds or less. Yeah it hurts but there are no long lasting effects.

I'd be willing to bet that the effects of being tasered vary wildly from person to person. We've all read news stories where a mental patient or someone on drugs was able to resist being tasered multiple times. It stands to reason that someone in poorer condition would have an adverse reaction to it.

I'm also willing to bet that your being able to get up 5-10 seconds after being tasered had a lot to do with being mentally and physically prepared for it. Let me sneak up on you and taser you when you least expect it and let's see if you still get up in 5-10 seconds.

[RightWrong]

I love this thread on every forum I read. People are so extreme.


Even if this implausible story turns out to be 100% true, that doesn't justify repeatedly tasering an incapacitated suspect. The fact that the police used electricity, instead of boots and nightsticks, to assault a defenseless person doesn't make it ok.

Boots and nightsticks? Is that the better way to use excessive force? Sounds like a better way to actually start a riot. Frankly, if the UCPD is telling the truth and the kid absolutely refused to leave, tasering him once sounds fine to me. That's less force than a boot and a nightstick and less likely to cause long term damage. It's humane.

Tasering him more than once, or after he claims a medical condition, or tasering him for expecting him to be immediately compliant after the first shock is stupid.


It originated with a request for ID. Ok. I don't care what rules were set up, a library - particularly a library at a public university - is a public enough place that in America by any sane standard YOU DON'T NEED to show ID and CERTAINLY shouldn't get tasered for refusing to do so and preparing to walk out.

Why? Do you set the rules now? My university has the exact same policy, Rollory, which I guess is the "sane standard". It's late at night, and students and parents want their children some place to study that is safe and peaceful. Most libraries are *closed* by this time, so why does the university library need to allow unrestricted access? That's not unreasonable, and hardly related to the issue to excessive force by the cops.

[bago]

Tasers regularly kill people by accident.

[Post-It]

Since Amnesty International began taking statistics on fatalities as a result of being tasered, they ahve recorded just over 100 deaths. 117 at last count I think. 24 of which were later contested by doctors. In the same time people have been tasered hundreds of thousands of times. The average they gave is that for all the times people are tasered, the average death rate, for all of North America, is about one per year. So, you're probably more likely to die from a lightening strike than you are to dieing from being tasered.

[bago]

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2894/

[Robert Sharp]

Boots and nightsticks? Is that the better way to use excessive force? Sounds like a better way to actually start a riot. Frankly, if the UCPD is telling the truth and the kid absolutely refused to leave, tasering him once sounds fine to me. That's less force than a boot and a nightstick and less likely to cause long term damage. It's humane.


I'm afraid his point went right past you. He was saying tasering IS less excessive than actually beating on someone but that it's morally equivalent. In other words, the fact that there are no bruises doesn't make this any more right. That was Dave's point.

[Dave47]

I love this thread on every forum I read. People are so extreme.

Boots and nightsticks? Is that the better way to use excessive force? Sounds like a better way to actually start a riot. Frankly, if the UCPD is telling the truth and the kid absolutely refused to leave, tasering him once sounds fine to me. That's less force than a boot and a nightstick and less likely to cause long term damage. It's humane.

Tasering him more than once, or after he claims a medical condition, or tasering him for expecting him to be immediately compliant after the first shock is stupid.
Whoah there. Go back and read my post again. That's not what I meant at all. Tasering may have been more appropriate than a savage beating, but it was still clearly inappropriate in that situation.

It's possible that the kid was behaving in a manner that justified the initial tasing. The continued tasing of an incapacitated, non-violent suspect that was captured on video was clearly excessive. How the police got into that situation isn't even the issue: there's no possible way to retell the story that excuses their actions.

[RightWrong]

Hmm, my bad.

[Ben]

Bago- I'm sure an article that relates the following quote with a straight face is completely unbiased on this issue:


“Ryan was not a defiant kid,” says his father. “I don’t understand why the cop would chase him for a half-mile, and then ‘Tase’ him while he had an elevated heart rate. If [the officer] hadn’t done that, we know that he would still be alive today.”

"Why couldn't the cops just let my son grow drugs and resist arrest in peace?"

[Guido Jones]

I love this thread on every forum I read. People are so extreme.

QFMFT

All we need is for someone to come in and tell us how they're a black belt and this was a inappropriate use of force and we'll have gone full circle.

[bago]

So what bias do you prefer that 50 thousand volts have?

[Marcus]

Oh yeah and 2 more things!

First of all they are like "OMG I NEED YOUR BADGE NUMBER!!! WHY WONT YOU GIVE ME YOUR BADGE NUMBER!!!!!!OMG!"

Which is really fucking retarded because hello the fucking badge number is printed on the badge! Also we have these things called name tags which actually have our real name printed on them! Who would have thunk it?!

Anyways they could have pepper sprayed him too but let me tell you what I would much rather be tasered 15 times like him then be pepper sprayed again. The pepper spray pain is like no other and it lasts for fucking ever!

Also by him atempting to leave they have the right to stop him because they had a legal detention.

[Robert Sharp]

First of all they are like "OMG I NEED YOUR BADGE NUMBER!!! WHY WONT YOU GIVE ME YOUR BADGE NUMBER!!!!!!OMG!"

Which is really fucking retarded because hello the fucking badge number is printed on the badge! Also we have these things called name tags which actually have our real name printed on them! Who would have thunk it?!


Good call. The students should have held the COPS down so they could read the badges. I never thought of that. You win.Asking the police for the numbers is just ridiculous.

[bigdruid]

Anyways they could have pepper sprayed him too but let me tell you what I would much rather be tasered 15 times like him then be pepper sprayed again. The pepper spray pain is like no other and it lasts for fucking ever!


Heck, for that matter they could have shot him in the balls. So, yeah, he should be really grateful to only get away with being tasered.

I'm still not sure what Marcus' point is, actually, other than the fact that his e-peen is so large that he can shrug off a taser bolt.

[Marcus]

Good call. The students should have held the COPS down so they could read the badges. I never thought of that. You win.Asking the police for the numbers is just ridiculous.


My point is that its rather easy to read a badge number and name.

[Marcus]

Heck, for that matter they could have shot him in the balls. So, yeah, he should be really grateful to only get away with being tasered.

I'm still not sure what Marcus' point is, actually, other than the fact that his e-peen is so large that he can shrug off a taser bolt.

The point is that the taser is one of the most effective tools we have that has nearly 0 long lasting effects. All the other tools they could have used would have resulted in him having hours or even days of pain.

Really though the taser hurts yeah but its not that bad.

[Matthew Gallant]

Effective, huh? Then why'd they have to keep using it?

[Marcus]

Effective, huh? Then why'd they have to keep using it?

Because the kid was trying to prove a point I guess. He could have walked if he wanted but he decided that he didn't want to walk.

[MikeJ]

Because the kid was trying to prove a point I guess. He could have walked if he wanted but he decided that he didn't want to walk.

Yeah, but what point were the cops trying to prove by repeatedly tasering him instead of just hauling his ass away?

[Robert Sharp]

My point is that its rather easy to read a badge number and name.

Is it? That's a genuine question. Is it easy to read both in a situation like this, where the officer isn't talking to you and is in the midst of a struggle (or tasering) of someone else?

[Supertanker]

The demand for a badge number just shows people watch too much TV. First, just ask for the officer's name & skip the Adam-12 badge number nonsense. Second, if you file a complaint based on the time of the incident and a description of the officer, the department knows who it is.

[Anders Hallin]

If I was a cop, I'd never give out my full name. Hell, at my current job we're specifically told to give out employee number instead of name, if a customer (or police) ask.

[steve]

How far can you take this, "I have a medical condition!" business? Like, if I'm being handcuffed, can I ask them not to do it because it'll ruin my shoulder? Or if I have a to metal allergy, can I get them to stop shooting at me?

[Peter Frazier]

Is it appropriate to ask a police officer for a their badge number when they are in the middle of something like this? I mean, do people really think that the police would stop what they are doing and turn around and say what their number and badge is just upon request?

I remember reading about how police used to intimidate protestors in the '70s here by lining up in front of them and then all taking their numbers off at the same time. Ah, fun times.

[Steve Canyon]

Makes you wonder why the police don't just claim to be 007 and let it go at that?

[Aeon221]

Well, what I gather from his spokesperson is this:

The kid did have his id on him. He was the first one asked to show id that night. That twitched his racial profiling nerve and he offered to show his id if they asked all the white kids around too. They declined and told him to get out.

He finished up the paper he was working on and gathered up his things to go. His backpack was on his arm and he was making his way to the stairs when the real cops showed up. They grabbed him.

Now he's already suspecting that he's being singled out because he is a minority. Now the cops are grabbing him to do something as minor as walk out of the library. So he decides this is an act of racism and that he needs to protest it. He goes limp because he believes that peaceful, non-violent protest is the way to approiately express his frustration and anger with the situation.

He keeps it up even though it hurts because he's really goddamn mad that he's being singled out for his skin color.



Dude, if I got kicked out of a library for being an atheist or a woman, or I felt that was the reason for it, I'd act up as much as, if not more than he did.

Props to this guy for standing up for civil liberties. I hope he gets some litigation up soon.

My roommate of a few years back had some heart condition that would result in death from tasering. He had a signed letter from his doctor that he was supposed to show a policeman in case this ever happened. He needed it because he protested frequently.

I always figured it didn't make any difference, because a black man who reaches into his pocket in front of a policeman is probably gonna die anyway, like that Diallo guy who was shot 19 times while reaching for his wallet.

[Destarius]

My roommate of a few years back had some heart condition that would result in death from tasering. He had a signed letter from his doctor that he was supposed to show a policeman in case this ever happened. He needed it because he protested frequently.

While I don't support tasering just anybody out of laziness or kicks, he really needs to ask himself: "Why do the police always feel they have to taser me?" It's not like the police have nothing better to do. Using the taser may require a use of force report, and no one likes paperwork.

[Jakub]

Effective, huh? Then why'd they have to keep using it?
Because he's got a martyr complex and wants to make a scene.

[Jakub]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g7zlJx9u2E&eurl=

The video.

I dunno, they keep asking him to get up, calmly. He refuses. In fact, it seems at first they try to move him physically but he starts spazzing with "DON'T TOUCH ME!!!!1!!1!!ELEVENTY"

[Ben]

He had a signed letter from his doctor that he was supposed to show a policeman in case this ever happened. He needed it because he protested frequently.

I'm going to get a signed letter from my doctor that says I'm allergic to bullets and get arobbin'. Your old roommate was a tool.

[Dave47]

I'm going to get a signed letter from my doctor that says I'm allergic to bullets and get arobbin'. Your old roommate was a tool.
The letter is unnecessary. (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=471&page=1#Scene_1)

[Moore]

Also by him atempting to leave they have the right to stop him because they had a legal detention.

er, but he was aked to leave by security and library staff, wasnt he? in fact, that was the problem thye had with him, show ID or leave, he leaves slowly but loudly, so when the cops show up, they taser him for leaving? Doesnt seem right to me.

Plus, on your badge number thing, even if the # is on your badge, would 'I'll taser you' be a proper response to someone asking for the badge number? whats wrong with
"it's written right there maam, you are free to take it down, the complaint # is 323 555 5555
" It's a bit more serve and protect style than 'YOU ARE NEXT FOR THE TASER FUNTIME, BITCHFACE' or whatever they said.

anyways, as a resident of LA, I dont give a fuck if you taser someone marcus, keep up the good job. seriously, bad rep and all, LAPD are the best cops I've ever dealt with anywhere, small city cops in pittsburgh and small town cops in the south always seem itching for trouble and action, LAPD officers just seem to want to defuse minor situations and put away bad guys, they've always been courteous to me and they arent a bunch of out a shape fatties, these people can actually chase people AND CATCH them. I mean they might suck if you want them to shut up your loud neighbor, but when you're hit by a drunk driver or robbed, or holding an elderly chinese womans umbrella so she doesnt get wet AND bloody, after she's been hit by a car, they are real nice people.

[Jakub]

er, but he was aked toleave by security and library staff, wasnt he? in fact, that was the problem thye had with him, show ID or leave, he leaves slowly but loudly, so when the cops show up, they taser him for leaving? Doesnt seem right to me.
It doesn't look like in the video that he'll leave.

I might be missing it, it's rather confusing, but though he says "I SAID I'D LEAVE!!11! SPAZZY SPZZY!!", he refuses to get up and tells the cops to fuck off. He doesn't say he can't get up, just fuck off.

Honestly, the guy's just making a scene.

[quatoria]

Is it appropriate to ask a police officer for a their badge number when they are in the middle of something like this? I mean, do people really think that the police would stop what they are doing and turn around and say what their number and badge is just upon request?

I remember reading about how police used to intimidate protestors in the '70s here by lining up in front of them and then all taking their numbers off at the same time. Ah, fun times.


Ah, the good old days of police brutality. People knew their places, back then! And if they didn't, why, a few good cracks on the head would sort 'em out! Or, you know, kill them. Either way, chalk one up for the good guys!

[Flowers]

Speaking of brutality;

My Dad was got to stand next to the man who singlehandedly started the charge to have battery to a police officer in Wisconsin be a special and more severe offense...

As he dropped the brick out the window.

[Marcus]

Plus, on your badge number thing, even if the # is on your badge, would 'I'll taser you' be a proper response to someone asking for the badge number? whats wrong with
"it's written right there maam, you are free to take it down, the complaint # is 323 555 5555
" It's a bit more serve and protect style than 'YOU ARE NEXT FOR THE TASER FUNTIME, BITCHFACE' or whatever they said.


Well you mean other then the fact that the studens seemed about ready to lynch the kid from the cops and they cops had to try to make their way out before anything more happen. That was a rather large crowd around that kid and some of those studends got way too close for comfort to the cops.

[MatthewF]

Well you mean other then the fact that the studens seemed about ready to lynch the kid from the cops and they cops had to try to make their way out before anything more happen. That was a rather large crowd around that kid and some of those studends got way too close for comfort to the cops.

Well gee, maybe if they hadn't been abusing him they wouldn't have to. If the cops do something fucked up to someone, and you can do something about it, you go after the cops. The badge is not a license to brutalize. They tased that kid 5 times, Marcus. He stopped moving after the first one. That sounds like torture to me.

[Flowers]

That's not torture. Not every fucked up thing a person in a position of authority does to another person is state sanctioned torture.

Torture is some seriously bad shit that goes nine miles past what they were doing to that guy in the hallway. He probably shouldn't have used the word torture, I think Ronnie Dobbs said it best when he sang;

"Ya'll are brutalizin' me."

[MatthewF]

I didn't say it was state-sanctioned. More like douchebag-sanctioned. It does come pretty close to torture though. Although brutality is a better word, obviously (which I also used).

[Marcus]

The badge is not a license to brutalize

Pft thats not even being brutalized. All he had to do was stand up and walk. I've seen some dudes get brutalized and what happened to this kid is about as far from that as you can get.

[MatthewF]

Pft thats not even being brutalized. All he had to do was stand up and walk. I've seen some dudes get brutalized and what happened to this kid is about as far from that as you can get.

Boy, I'm glad we have you to "serve" and "protect."

[Marcus]

Oh Jesus christ I just went back and re watched the movie and this kid is fucking retarded. First of all he starts to go fucking mental on the cops when they show up and when they attempt to escort him away ( which I am presuming they are doing ) he says "Dont fucking touch me!" which to me says he pulled away which in of it self is some very bad news. There is waaay more going on here then this little shit screaming his head off.

You can also hear the cops telling him to stop fighting them to which he says "I'M NOT FIGHTING YOU" but you know he is because they are telling him to stop fighting them.

Also they dont even fucking taser him for the full 10 seconds I think I counted about 5 at the most.

Then! As the cops are trying to take him in to custody the mob starts to form and this is all with in less then a min so please dont give me any shit about them needed to stop the brutality because the only thing that happened was the fact that they tasted him.

Also saying that you are not resisting but still screaming at the top of your lungs is not being passive.

[Marcus]

Oh jesus christ and again they say "stand up. stand up." to which he starts to tell them about how they are abusing their power and then he says "fuck off". Which to me says he has no desire to comply at all.

Its also not like they didnt warn him that they would tase him again if he didnt stand up. They said if you dont stand up we will tase you again. Its not that complicated.

Also the second shot was I think even less then the first one. I think I counted less then 4 seconds.

Then before the third shot they are still telling him to stand up and one of the officers says something like "Stop dragging us down" which means he is not being passive at all.

The third shot was less then the second shot and they actually only tasered him 3 times not 5.

[MatthewF]

Yes, because the cops say it, it must be true. I've met decent cops in my lifetime, but you sir are not one of them. Maybe one day, you'll be a regular 'ol citizen again, and a cop can tase you 5 times the next time you give him some lip.

[Marcus]

Yes, because the cops say it, it must be true. I've met decent cops in my lifetime, but you sir are not one of them. Maybe one day, you'll be a regular 'ol citizen again, and a cop can tase you 5 times the next time you give him some lip.

He got tased 3 times but ok you keep living in that bubble!

Whatever dude you should really listen to everything thats going on with that tape.

Edit my bad he was tased 5 times.

Also they didn't just tase him for giving them lip.

[VegasRobb]

Sounds silly, but when did you meet Marcus? Couldn't you guys just hash this out over the phone and say something like, "ah okay man, I know you better than that, it just came across weird on the message board."

Otherwise, that's kinda harsh and overboard, Scry.

[MatthewF]

Sounds silly, but when did you meet Marcus? Couldn't you guys just hash this out over the phone and say something like, "ah okay man, I know you better than that, it just came across weird on the message board."

Otherwise, that's kinda harsh and overboard, Scry.

If he shows me some decency, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But nothing in this thread leads me to believe that he would have acted any differently were he in the same situation.

[Marcus]

If he shows me some decency, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But nothing in this thread leads me to believe that he would have acted any differently were he in the same situation.

Actually I would have because our use of force chart doesn't allow us to use the taser in this situation. I might have pepper sprayed him though which hurts about 100x worse.

PS you are a stupid twit.

Love Always

Marcus

[extarbags]

Then before the third shot they are still telling him to stand up and one of the officers says something like "Stop dragging us down" which means he is not being passive at all.

It's comin' right for us!

[VegasRobb]

That's the first step to tolerance.

Scry, when Marcus meets you, he will pepper spray you instead of lightning you up with the taser.

[MatthewF]

Don't get me wrong. I don't hate all cops, in fact I have some great stories of both good and bad, but the whole "BITCH DESERVED IT" and "I'VE SEEN WORSE" angle Marcus seems to be pushing really hits a certain nerve. But I'm probably a bit biased. When I was 16 I walked home from work at a drugstore and out of nowhere a giant hulk of a cop tackled me and stuck his knee on the back of my neck. I broke my jaw and dislocated my shoulder from the impact. Later, I learned that he had been chasing a kid matching my description on foot who had shot out some car windows with a BB gun. I was issued a citation for ignoring the orders of a police officer or some such bullshit, received no apology, no compensation for my medical bills, and on top of it the cop later sued me (my parents) for medical bills incurred when he hurt his back tackling me. He won the case.

Yes, I'm fucking bitter.

On the good side...

When I was 19 I was caught in the park with my friend while drinking 40's with a couple 18 year old girls. Ah, to be a teen again. Two San Jose cops rolled up and we thought we were done for. But instead they offered to give us a ride home, and promised they wouldn't mention anything about us to the girls' parents when they dropped them off. They sped us back across town at 80 in a 40 zone and dropped us off and told us to stay out of trouble.

I was also pulled over once by a cop who wouldn't stop smiling. He never lost the smile the whole time, even while writing me the ticket. It wasn't a douchey smiley either, you could tell he was just a really upbeat guy. Pretty funny, and it made me not mind the ticket so much.

[Brendan]

Scry, while I agree that the response by the police was over the top, it's hardly torture. Both the student and the cops were incrediibly stupid. A good police officer would have sized up the situation as being non-violent and would never have let it get out of control the way it did.

Marcus, surely they teach police officers in your part of the word that violence should only be used as a last resort when dealing with unarmed civilians?

[MatthewF]

Yeah ok, torture's a bad word for it. I think I'm just in a particularly abrasive mood tonight.

[bago]

The thin blue line can get pretty fucked up (http://www.bakelblog.com/nobodys_business/2006/11/trace_amounts.html).

[Marcus]

Marcus, surely they teach police officers in your part of the word that violence should only be used as a last resort when dealing with unarmed civilians?

Just because someone is unarrmed does not automatically make them not a threat.

[Jonathan Blow]

Yeah so we taser the shit out of him because we don't automatically know that he's not a threat!

I mean seriously, the 1% doctrine applies here. If there's a 1% chance that you might think that someone might eventually be a threat, Taser the fucker!!!

5 times!!!

[Marcus]

I didnt say that but ok.

[MatthewF]

But you did say you might have pepper sprayed him, since you're not allowed to use your taser. Boy, it's good to know you wouldn't act just like they did! You're such a decent guy, you'd pepper spray him instead!

[MikeSofaer]

Just because someone is unarrmed does not automatically make them not a threat.Just because cops responded with a degree of force appropriate to a threat, does not automatically mean there was a threat.

[worm]

If I have a run in with the cops and they think I'm going to kill them somehow and tase me, I'd rather they just run the chance of dying. To think of it, if cops aren't dying so my life is easier, really, what's the point?

[Jakub]

Scry, while I agree that the response by the police was over the top, it's hardly torture. Both the student and the cops were incrediibly stupid. A good police officer would have sized up the situation as being non-violent and would never have let it get out of control the way it did.
What would this theoretical "good" police officer have done? I'm curious.

When you have someone screaming and raving at you with "FUCK OFF!!!" and "DON'T TOUCH ME!!11!!" and refusing to show ID, refusing to leave when asked, refusing to even stand up, what do you do?

Just let him go?

Don't get me wrong, this is a pretty ugly scene, but it's not the police making it. The kid chose to martyr himself all over ID in a library.

[Jakub]

But you did say you might have pepper sprayed him, since you're not allowed to use your taser. Boy, it's good to know you wouldn't act just like they did! You're such a decent guy, you'd pepper spray him instead!
And your solution is...?

Watch the video. Listen to the kid, he's obviously not co-operating and making a scene. He won't show ID as asked, he won't leave, he won't stand up, he won't let himself be touched and removed. What's YOUR solution? And no "I wouldn't have done that", doesn't count. Neither does "I wouldn't have tasered him five times", because that's what you WOULDN'T do to remove the kid with the martyr complex. I'm asking what you would do.

[Dave47]

And your solution is...?

Watch the video. Listen to the kid, he's obviously not co-operating and making a scene. He won't show ID as asked, he won't leave, he won't stand up, he won't let himself be touched and removed. What's YOUR solution? And no "I wouldn't have done that", doesn't count. Neither does "I wouldn't have tasered him five times", because that's what you WOULDN'T do to remove the kid with the martyr complex. I'm asking what you would do.
That's not a fair question. No one on either side of this discussion knows exactly what happened, so expecting us to know the "perfect response" to an unknown stimulus is impossible. Though I suspect the initial taserng wasn't justified, it's certainly possible that it was. We can't know for sure.

However, based on the information we do posses, it's pretty simple to come up with better solutions than those utilized by the UCLA Police. Those solutions include:

-Tasering him four times.
-Tasering him three times.
-Tasering him twice.
-Tasering him once.

[MikeSofaer]

A little bit of patience? Give the kid a foot of space and 15 seconds. He's not hurting anyone. Explain to him that he'll get arrested for tresspassing, inform him he's under arrest for tresspassing, then if he's still yelling, zap him and cuff him and haul him off to jail.

I'm going to say it again. These are university cops, and they need to be able to handle self-righteous pricks with tact and diplomacy. It comes with the territory.

[Jakub]

That's not a fair question. No one on either side of this discussion knows exactly what happened, so expecting us to know the "perfect response" to an unknown stimulus is impossible. Though I suspect the initial taserng wasn't justified, it's certainly possible that it was. We can't know for sure.

However, based on the information we do posses, it's pretty simple to come up with better solutions than those utilized by the UCLA Police. Those solutions include:

-Tasering him four times.
-Tasering him three times.
-Tasering him twice.
-Tasering him once.
Oooooooooooooh it's not a fair question.

Right.

Because saying that the cops tasered him 5 times for no good reason is a fair assumption? I like how you think, applying moral standards only to the side of the argument that helps the guy who's clearly making a big deal out of nothing and determined to martyr himself despite repeated requests to simply show his ID, or stand up.

[Jakub]

A little bit of patience? Give the kid a foot of space and 15 seconds. He's not hurting anyone. Explain to him that he'll get arrested for tresspassing, inform him he's under arrest for tresspassing, then if he's still yelling, zap him and cuff him and haul him off to jail.

I'm going to say it again. These are university cops, and they need to be able to handle self-righteous pricks with tact and diplomacy. It comes with the territory.
What part of "he doesn't want to comply no matter what" is so hard to understand? Look, when some dipshit sets out to make himself a martyr, he'll get it done. You can't stop someone from doing that.

Do you really think they started off by tasering him? Or maybe that they went straight from asking him to leave to tasering him without warning?

You can clearly tell they tried to guide him out because he starts spazzing "DON'T TOUCH ME!" Who's starting with the dramatics? Who's refusing to comply? Who's refusing to be touched?

What's the alternative then? You remove him by force. I somehow doubt that physically restraining a struggling student is going to be any less dramatic than tasering him. He'll still be screaming about the Patriot Act and telling the cops to fuck off and that he said he'd co-operate five minutes ago when he was yelling at them "DON'T TOUCH ME!" Because "DON'T TOUCH ME YOU FASCIST PIGS" is really hippie student talk for "I'm willing to comply with all your requests."

[Dave47]

Oooooooooooooh it's not a fair question.

Right.

Because saying that the cops tasered him 5 times for no good reason is a fair assumption?
It's not an assumption: Their stated reason for shocking him was because of his refusal to get to his feet. Not everyone is physically capable of getting to their feet immediately after being shocked by a taser. Given that the kid was (at that point) clearly not a threat to him, and given that they were tasering him because of his failure to comply with an order that may have been impossible to comply with, I'd say that the police had no good reason to taser him.

And even if the kid was capable of standing, a non-violent refusal to comply with a police order doesn't justify physical force. Had the police behaved in a more restrained manner, this encounter could have been resolved without physical force. Which in turn would have saved the department from the bad publicity, internal investigation, and lawsuit.

[Jakub]

It's not an assumption: Their stated reason for shocking him was because of his refusal to get to his feet. Not everyone is physically capable of getting to their feet immediately after being shocked by a taser. Given that the kid was (at that point) clearly not a threat to him, and given that they were tasering him because of his failure to comply with an order that may have been impossible to comply with, I'd say that the police had no good reason to taser him.
I'm tempted to swear at you right now, but I'll restrain myself.

So your argument is that this kid was somehow tased by some mystical terrorist sniper taser right before the police tasered him, which is why he refused to show ID and why he fell to the ground in a passive resistance position? Then the police show up and they say "hey, get up" to the kid who is somehow unable to stand up because he's already been tased by the mystical terrorist sniper taser?

And then, later, when they do tase him and he starts telling them to fuck off in response to "All you have to do is stand up. We're asking you to stand up" and making lucid though ranting arguments about the Patriot Act and fascist bullshit, he somehow lost his ability to speak and say "Hey, I can't get up, my muscles don't work"?


And even if the kid was capable of standing, a non-violent refusal to comply with a police order doesn't justify physical force. Had the police behaved in a more restrained manner, this encounter could have been resolved without physical force. Which in turn would have saved the department from the bad publicity, internal investigation, and lawsuit.
What is the "more restrained manner"?

Stop dancing around the question.

Don't give me this "if they'd been more restrained" or "if they hadn't done this". Explain to me what they do to get a kid out of the library after he refuses to show ID and collapses to the ground in a passive resistance position and refuses to let himself be touched. How do you do it? Explain the process. Don't give me "be more restrained/politic/whatever", explain HOW. What, do they use Star Trek transporters? Darkseid's boom tubes? How do they remove someone who resists being moved?

[Dave47]

I'm tempted to swear at you right now, but I'll restrain myself. So your argument is that this kid was somehow tased by some mystical terrorist sniper taser right before the police tasered him, which is why he refused to show ID and why he fell to the ground in a passive resistance position? Then the police show up and they say "hey, get up" to the kid who is somehow unable to stand up?
No. That argument would be retarded. My argument is that the kid was tased by the UCLA Police, which may or may not have been justified. At that point, compliance with their subsequent orders to "stand up" may have been physically impossible.


And then, later, when they do tase him and he starts telling them to fuck off in response to "All you have to do is stand up. We're asking you to stand up" and making lucid though ranting arguments about the Patriot Act and fascist bullshit, he somehow lost his ability to speak and say "Hey, I can't get up, my muscles don't work"?
He was in a lot of pain, and was cussing the police out. Which might be what you or I would do if we felt that we were being assaulted by the police. I think it's a little unreasonable to expect him to take the electric shock and then calmly say: "Pardon me, good sirs, but I seem to have temporarily lost the use of my legs. If you just bear with me a moment, I will comply with your order posthaste. In the meantime, I would be ever so grateful if you would refrain from administering any more powerful electrical shocks to me, a civilian who poses no threat to you."



What is the "more restrained manner"?

Stop dancing around the question.

Don't give me this "if they'd been more restrained" or "if they hadn't done this". Explain to me what they do to get a kid out of the library after he refuses to show ID and collapses to the ground in a passive resistance position and refuses to let himself be touched. How do you do it? Explain the process. Don't give me "be more restrained/politic/whatever", explain HOW. What, do they use Star Trek transporters? Darkseid's boom tubes? How do they remove someone who resists being moved?

Hmm, ok: The police were confronted with a student who was obviously very sensitive about racial profiling, whether real or imagined. If it's true that he was already leaving the library, I'm not sure why the felt compelled to touch him in the first place: Physical contact with sensitive parties really should be avoided.

But let's assume your account is correct, and I was faced with an obnoxious student who was lying on the ground in a passive resistance manner. In that case, I'd explain to the student that he was going to have to leave the library because he didn't have his ID, but that if he left on his own two feet, that would be the end of it. If he refused to move, I'd explain that we were going to bodily move him out. If he began thrashing or something, and made that impossible I would tell him that if he didn't calm down, it might be necessary to taser him. But honestly, with at least three other police officers at my back, plus campus security, I have trouble imagining that the tasering would actually be necessary, unless the kid graduated from passive resistance to physical assault.

By proceeding in this manner, not only would I be far more likely to achieve my desired outcome, but I would also win the support of onlookers, which in turn would mean that my fellow police officers could devote their attention to my problem, and not to dealing with a mob of outraged students.

[Damien Neil]

How do you know they over steped their bounds? Do you know what their department policy is on the use of force? I am going to guess not.

I do. Here they are: http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/zippdf/2006/Taser_Policies.pdf

You might be particularly interested in this bit:


4) GENERAL
Although not absolutely prohibited, officers should give additional
consideration to the unique circumstances involved prior to applying the
Taser to any of the following individuals: .
A) Pregnant females;
B) Elderly individuals or obvious juveniles;
C) Individuals who are handcuffed or otherwise restrained;
D) Individuals who have been recently sprayed with alcohol based Pepper
Spray or who are otherwise in close proximity to any combustible material;
E) Individuals whose position or activity may result in collateral injury (e.g.
falls from significant heights, operating vehicles, etc.)

Those officers tasered a handcuffed and prone man. Three times.

They are a disgrace to their badge, their profession, their country, and the entire damned human race.

[Jakub]

He was handcuffed?

[Hans Lauring]

I know it was a long sentence Damien bolded for you (or rather Marcus), but try the last part right before the period again.


... otherwise restrained;

See?!

[Peter Frazier]

How was he otherwise restrained?

[Hans Lauring]

Wasn't he on the floor while they were more or less on top of him?

"Stop not moving or we will painfully immobilize you...!"

[Brendan]

Just because someone is unarrmed does not automatically make them not a threat.

I'm going down the route that the cop wasn't a malicious asshole but was instead grossly incompetant. I didn't see anything remotely violent from the student. Passively falling down and lying limp is so threatening.

The correct way to deal with the situation is to ask what the problem is and to communicate with the guy who is complying with an earlier request and walking out of the door with his backpack on his shoulder.

A good officer wouldn't have needed to taser the guy but even if he did, he wouldn't have had to do it five times. Once was more than enough.

Threatening to taser bystanders asking for identification is just further proof that the guy was clueless.

[Angie Gallant]

You can see after I believe it's the second taser shock, when he leaps into the air, that he is handcuffed behind his back.

[Robert Sharp]

It really seems that he was tasered to force compliance, NOT to subdue. That's the issue here, IMO. Subduing with tasers is perfectly viable; it's what tasers are for. But using tasers as a cattle prod seems to cross the line of acceptable police behavior.

[Igor Muravyev]

As a student I think this is completely ridiculous! They let the hundreds of [white] drunks at night run around and do dumb shit, but when a Middle Eastern student peacefully disobeys, he's a criminal right?

My views may be skewed because I go to school where the cops are rated to be the #1 most racist.

[Flowers]

Fuck you, Igor bitch! Don't you dare imply that underage drinking is some problem that needs to be addressed by society. Drinking, being drunk, and running around and yelling and being white are fucking fine. Fucking Christ, someone could read your statement and think that a tighter control of another innocent group of people would justify the treatment the tasered kid got. That's not the fucking case. The drunk kids are alright and the tasered kid should not have been tasered. Don't fucking drag celebrants through the mud by implying that their behavior needs to be controlled. Fuck. I'm an orphan, so don't disagree with me or I'll cry.

Leaving drunk people alone is something that they are doing right. Don't make them change that. Idiot.

[Igor Muravyev]

WTF Flowers? Did you completely skip the part where I thought "this is completely ridiculous". As in, the tazering were completely wrong?


As a student I think this is completely ridiculous! They let the hundreds of [white] drunks at night run around and do dumb shit, but when a Middle Eastern student peacefully disobeys, he's a criminal right?

My views may be skewed because I go to school where the cops are rated to be the #1 most racist.

See, I didn't even say there was a problem with being drunk, I said there was a problem with drunk people who do *dumb shit*. I don't know about other campuses, but on mine they usually get away [if they're white]. Meanwhile, black kids get stopped for jaywalking [mostly while drunk].

After watching the videos, I hope those cops get their asses sued for repeatedly tazering the downed student.

[Flowers]

WTF Flowers? Did you completely skip the part where I thought "this is completely ridiculous". As in, the tazering were completely wrong?

After watching the videos, I hope those cops get their asses sued for repeatedly tazering the downed student.

I think you missed the part where I told you not to disagree with me or I would cry. Now you have the tears of an alleged orphan on your hands.

I was saying that you shouldn't point to harmless behaviors that go unchecked as a sign of mixed up priorities. Maybe you should have said; "Nice to see that women are still getting raped in alleys near the street corners where drugs are dealt, but these cops, in their infinite wisdom, decided their time was better spent electrocuting college kids."

[Flowers]

I should disclose my bias. I wouldn't piss on someone from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation or MADD if they were on fire.

[shift6]

They tased that kid 5 times, Marcus. He stopped moving after the first one.
I seem to remember him still yelling and hollering about the Patriot Act and facsism (clear words, not just screams) pretty loudly after the first one, and they waited for about 30 seconds worth of his soapbox before hitting him the second time. Seems to me he had plenty of tantrum energy.


Those officers tasered a handcuffed and prone man. Three times.
I saw him on his knees (because of his passive resistance ot being escorted out) but not prone.


WTF Flowers? Did you completely skip the part where I thought "this is completely ridiculous". As in, the tazering were completely wrong?
Remember, Flowers' replies are 99% sarcastic funnay, not serious.

Also: I've asked before but can anyone produce a minute:second on threatening a tazer for someone asking for a badge number? That's an oft repeated statement which I can't find substantiated.

[Steve Canyon]

When I was 19 I was caught in the park with my friend while drinking 40's with a couple 18 year old girls. Ah, to be a teen again. Two San Jose cops rolled up and we thought we were done for. But instead they offered to give us a ride home, and promised they wouldn't mention anything about us to the girls' parents when they dropped them off. They sped us back across town at 80 in a 40 zone and dropped us off and told us to stay out of trouble.

I bet those nice police men dropped you boys off first and then took the girls home?

[Met_K]

I have a legitimate reason for distrusting the police, Glenn. Do you care to contest the validity of my feelings? It wouldn't be so wise to do so.

You really should go troll elsewhere. I realize P&R/qt3 is a joke to you but it's partially the way it is because of people like you.

[Glenn]

I have a legitimate reason for distrusting the police, Glenn. Do you care to contest the validity of my feelings?Yeah, sure. Why not. I hereby do question the validity of your feelings. Now tell me all about the time some pig pushed you around for no reason when you and your friends were hanging out in the parking lot at a 7-11.

It wouldn't be so wise to do so.Why is that? Are you totally going to kick my ass IRL? You keep saying it's coming, and everyday I wait and I wait for Fed Ex to finally deliver that Met_K Bag of Whoop Ass, but it's never there. Maybe you got the zip code wrong.

You really should go troll elsewhere. I realize P&R/qt3 is a joke to you but it's partially the way it is because of people like you.I don't think I've ever trolled outside of P&R, and I'm pretty sure P&R is a joke because it's the political forum of a gaming board and not because I occasionally make disingenuous comments, you fucking douche. Now go run back to IRC and tell everybody about what you're going to do to me and what the look on my face is going to be when you pull my intestines out of my mouth.

[Rollory]

Rich Nikoley nails it:

http://www.uncsense.com/root/2006/11/you_dont_have_t.html


Now, of course, this is going to play out in some ways it shouldn't, and there were seemingly a few bits of BS in that interview. But look: if the guy was being unruly, then it could have and should have gone down just like such things have always gone down for decades. The cops or some authority comes along and asks politely for the guy to leave, which is going to end the matter right there most of the time. If he refuses, then he gets hauled out by the armpits by a couple of strong men, whether he cooperates or goes limp, and then it's the end of the matter.

That is the only MORAL and ETHICAL stance to be had on this.

[Rollory]

Other relevant commentary:

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php?id=P807

As things stand right now, we are at least a generation into training
the sort of people who stood around with rifles and herded others into
cattle cars without hearing the sounds of their own consciences. ...
"Zero Tolerance" actually means "Don't think, because you're not
qualified," and it should not be difficult to figure out where a
culture like that is headed.

[Damien Neil]

He was handcuffed?

Some of the initial stories I read stated that he was handcuffed. Checking further, none of the mainstream sources seem to be reporting this. Based on this, I'll tentatively guess that I was mistaken about the handcuffs, and that part is a corruption of the story.


I saw him on his knees (because of his passive resistance ot being escorted out) but not prone.

At 2:36 into the video on youtube, he appears to be prone. I can't see him in the shot at this point (he's blocked from view by a desk and two officers), but from the posture of the two officers leaning over him, he clearly isn't on his knees any more.

[Marcus]

He was cuffed after the first tase. Reason I know this is because they are telling him to stand up after the first tase.

The way the taser is supposed to work is that you have a handcuff team standing by to rush the person as you tase them to get them in cuffs while they are incapacitated. I am 99% sure thats how they did it here becuase after the first tase you can hear them telling him to get up and they would only be doing that if they had him in cuffs and tried to move him.

Really I dunno why they didnt just drag him out because thats what we would have done and do a lot. The first tase really isnt a problem with the use of force policy because they use it as a means to get him in to cuffs because he would not comply with them and pulled away from them when they intially tried to get him in to cuffs. You can hear that when he says "DONT FUCKING TOUCH ME".

Let me put it to you this way if he wasnt cuffed after the first tase there is no way I would have my hands on him like they do telling him to get up.

[Jonathan Blow]

So the aspect of this that all you pro-brutality posters are missing, is that according to the student's statement (which from what I recall was corroborated by witnesses) he was on his way out of the library when the cops grabbed him and stopped him from leaving so that they could arrest him.

In other words, all they could have done was not grab him, and he would have been gone, no problem. If that part of the story is true. Which seems probable, given that in that video, they have the guy on the ground right near the door.

So all this "how the hell else do you get someone out of an establishment who is being unruly?" argument seems inappropriate and silly.

To me this looks like a clear case of authority wanting to preserve its face as authority. Can't let the guy go, because we came here to discipline him. So we're going to do that. Oh, he won't come with us, we are going to show him why it's such a bad idea not to cooperate. Oh, these other students don't seem to be happy with what we are doing. We will teach them to respect our authority.

[Brendan]

Rich Nikoley nails it:

http://www.uncsense.com/root/2006/11/you_dont_have_t.html



That is the only MORAL and ETHICAL stance to be had on this.

Yeah, but when you brag about it in the local pub after work to your pig friends it's just not the same.

[Destarius]

Really I dunno why they didnt just drag him out because thats what we would have done and do a lot.

I think that's what we all want to know, Marcus. I think there's a lot of concern right now that police officers are seeing the taser as some kind of cattle prod. They need to realise that there is a scale of force, and pain compliance should only be used where necessary.

[skedastic]

Also: I've asked before but can anyone produce a minute:second on threatening a tazer for someone asking for a badge number? That's an oft repeated statement which I can't find substantiated.

In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhYCeO67fCs), the cop clearly threatens another student at about 2:20. You can't make out what was said immediately prior, though. Many times the crowd of students asks the cops for identification.

What is particularly surprising and disturbing about this incident isn't the brutality, it's that the cops apparently felt unconstrained by the large crowd of onlookers, including at least two who are clearly recording everything on video. The cops apparently didn't believe they were doing anything wrong.

Edit:
Possibly they would have tasered him a few more times if he'd been in a coma rather than passively resisting. (http://civilliberty.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=civilliberty&cdn=newsissues&tm=99&f=10&su=p284.2.420.ip_&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//accidentalblogger.typepad.com/accidental_blogger/2006/11/police_state_on.html)

Edit 2:
Officer has history of violence; says he's proud of himself; is back on duty at UCLA. (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser21nov21,0,1459046.story?coll=la-home-headlines)

[worm]

Look, like surgeons and air jet aces, if a cop approaches everything cautiously and never dies and really fucks up by taking a risk on himself, you can't argue that the entire police system works. If surgeons are careful and only do examinations they suck, if air jet aces never fly their planes into the mothership the Area 51 gets destroyed.

If the police aren't getting stabbed by pregnant women because the bitch had a knife and that was cocaine under her shirt, well, then I don't feel safe. If they're not dying out there I might be dying, and that's what is really disgusting.

If the police pull out the taser because a kid wearing a hemp necklace(i bet) didn't have his student ID is lying on the ground, I don't feel safe. Because those cops are MOTHERFUCKING PUSSIES. I would rather have a fucking bouncer working the beat than a cop.

[MatthewF]

I bet those nice police men dropped you boys off first and then took the girls home?

Way to go, Steve, you're elevating your douchebaggery to awesome new heights. Sick motherfucker. Actually, they got home before we did, because they called us. Apparently they just got dropped off in front of their house. The second we got home we went back out and picked them up again.

[DerekSnider]

Way to go, Steve, you're elevating your douchebaggery to awesome new heights. Sick motherfucker. Actually, they got home before we did, because they called us. Apparently they just got dropped off in front of their house. The second we got home we went back out and picked them up again.

...and then..

[MatthewF]

We were stuck in an infinite time loop, doomed to repeat the same events over and over for all eternity. I'm posting from a wormhole right now.

[DerekSnider]

As far as I know 18 year old girls are still legal.

[MatthewF]

Indeed.

[Ben]

according to the student's statement (which from what I recall was corroborated by witnesses) he was on his way out of the library when the cops grabbed him and stopped him from leaving so that they could arrest him.

The video and basic logic both dispute this. But the kid says so and you're pretty sure you think you heard he was, so once again let's assume he's in the right.

worm- Stop trolling.

[DerekSnider]

Well, guess we know what you'll be doing tonight Scry.. :)
...No?

[Jonathan Blow]

The video and basic logic both dispute this. But the kid says so and you're pretty sure you think you heard he was, so once again let's assume he's in the right.


Uhh, how do the video and basic logic dispute this? Just because you want to believe so?

In the video, the guy is on the ground in the aisleway at the exit. Considering the officers didn't drag him there -- after all, they felt the need to taser him for compliance -- then it seems likely he was there when they first grabbed him.

[anarch]

No sodomy with a foriegn object? *yawn*

[worm]

worm- Stop trolling.
Fuck off. I'm completely serious, and now I must posit that you are in fact trolling by calling me a troll, and I must ask you, good sir, to henceforth cease, desist, and cut it the fuck out.

Can we get a picture of this kid? Seriously, the chances he had a knife? Pretty fucking slim. I can blame the cop for tasering him because if cops don't get stabbed and instead taser more people instead, they're serving and protecting themselves, not me. It's perfectly fine to look out for number one, but if you're doing that all the time you should not be a fucking cop.

It's a pussy move to taser some guy when you can just get the arms and have someone else get the legs.

Anyone who doesn't understand the "cops shouldn't wet their pants" argument may prefer this one: It is wrong to use a taser in any way other than phasers on stun are used by the Federation in Star Trek.

[Ben]

I can blame the cop for tasering him because if cops don't get stabbed and instead taser more people instead, they're serving and protecting themselves, not me.

Stop trolling. If you're not trolling, you should seriously consider killing yourself.

[MatthewF]

Stop it Ben, you're making baby jesus cry. And hey, if you don't like what he's saying, there's always the taser. AMIRITE?

[worm]

I think it's time that we all stand up as one and tell Ben just what we think of his "You're a troll" troll tactic.

edit: oops, I'll start.

Ben, I think your patented "You're a troll"® Ben Brand© troll tactic is just no good, and it's hurting Quarter To Three.

[Ben]

You guys understand his argument is allegedly "Cops should get stabbed instead of defending themselves because that's their job", right? How is that not trolling?

[worm]

Actually, it was "cops should not be pussies that wet their diapers when a guy won't stand up and walk with them peacefully to jail and they should not shock the fucking bejeezus out of him to avoid a physical confrontation".

Stabbing was just about the pregnant women example, which is someone they aren't supposed to taser. Oh god, your trolling knows no bounds. You see I was creating an unlikely situation that should not validate a taser, even if the women has a knife and that is cocaine under her shirt.

[Marcus]

Ah ok so its ok for cops to get hurt trying to take a guy in to custody but not the other way around? So we have a tool that can help us take people in to custody with out getting hurt and yet you dont want us to use it? You'd rather us take the chance and put hands on the person when he has full use of his motor abilities? Interesting idea!

[worm]

You're saying that you shouldn't have to handle anyone who isn't incapacitated? Are you fucking afraid that he's going to vulcan nerve pinch you? Are you arguing for a separate "Palsy Police" Force to be created so you can join and deal with all palsy crime?

It's pretty obvious what I'm saying, a cop's highest concern should be fairness and justice. When his family or personal welfare outweighs that concern you have guys shocking a person so they don't have to take that .00000000000000001% chance of injury. It's not supposed to be a good job.

[Marcus]

You're saying that you shouldn't have to handle anyone who isn't incapacitated?

No Not at all but you are saying that we should just go and put hands on pretty much everyone when thats just not how it works.

If I go to place someone under arrest and they pull away from me and tell me not to fucking touch them you really expect me to go back and try and touch them again and see what happens?

Well I am glad you know so much about it.

[worm]

If I go to place someone under arrest and they pull away from me and tell me not to fucking touch them you really expect me to go back and try and touch them again and see what happens?
If you had a Combine Stun baton, yes, I'd fucking expect you to touch them with that. Also, seriously, is this what I should do if a cop pulls me over?

If they lay down on the ground, what do you do?

[Marcus]

If you had a Combine Stun baton, yes, I'd fucking expect you to touch them with that. Also, seriously, is this what I should do if a cop pulls me over?


How about this if a cop pulls you over you should just do what he says thats pretty simple.


If they lay down on the ground, what do you do?

If the suspect lays on the ground? Well he better be laying face down so we can put him in cuffs and if he is in cuffs and just refusing to stand we just drag his ass to the car.

[MikeSofaer]

Well, if they're going to cuff him and arrest him, and he's being a prick, it makes sense to taser him once. I'm not convinced they had to do that, but it's possible. It's tasering him with the intention to cause pain that's so ridiculous.

[worm]

How about this if a cop pulls you over you should just do what he says thats pretty simple.
Yeah, but if he gets scared maybe he'll just let me go, or taser me. It's getting out of a ticket or becoming youtube online hero.


If the suspect lays on the ground? Well he better be laying face down so we can put him in cuffs and if he is in cuffs and just refusing to stand we just drag his ass to the car.
So the answer isn't taser-cuffs. Great. That's all I needed to hear.


Well, if they're going to cuff him and arrest him, and he's being a prick, it makes sense to taser him once. I'm not convinced they had to do that, but it's possible. It's tasering him with the intention to cause pain that's so ridiculous.
Judge Sofaer.
Defendant: A Prick
Criminal Activity: Prick-dom
Ruling: Guilty Sentence: One Tase

[Marcus]

Well like I said before the UCLA cops used the taser to get him in cuffs which is the correct procedure in this case.

[worm]

Well like I said before the UCLA cops used the taser to get him in cuffs which is the correct procedure in this case.
Was this guy on meth? I remember having to put about 20 rockets into a guy on meth before I could get him into cuffs.

Seriously though. Correct procedure is fucking retarded. If a bouncer can restrain a guy who is drunk and pissed a cop can restrain a guy who is lying down and wearing a hemp necklace (I bet) skin on skin, Hawaiian style. Look, can I have my tax money go to the tasers? Because it seems like they are doing all the work.

[MikeSofaer]

Criminal Activity: Prick-domCriminal activity: tresspassing. Being a prick is what will make the cops think that tasering you is the safest way to get you in cuffs.

[Marcus]

He wasn't laying down when they tasered him the first time.

[worm]

He wasn't laying down when they tasered him the first time.
Okay. So he was standing up. Now if he was swinging his arms in a windmill motion, do you personally believe that the cops would have dropped their tasers, shit themselves, and ran away? It is looking that way to me.

[Marcus]

I really have no idea what you are asking.

[worm]

I'm saying that a large amount of people still deal with detaining people without tasers. Also, I believe that a taser isn't for eliminating the possible difficulty in detainment, it's to eliminate the existing difficulty in detainment, and even then a cop should be physically able to handle a difficult detainment without a taser.

In a school library, against a kid who didn't have his library card (a trespassing criminal) you don't need a taser, I don't need a taser, my grandmother doesn't need a taser. I'm trying to remember this stupid line about not making statements because that's the end of a conversation, so Dr. Keith Ablow asks questions instead. Well imagine that tasers are big electric periods, and I think cops might be better off asking the question of just physical detainment.

D&D is boring if you just cast stun all the time, sometimes you've got make that fortitude roll.

[Marcus]

Ok sure but the problem is by putting hands on him you increase the chance of either him or them getting injured by and exponential margin. The taser elminates the chance that either party gets injured.

Yeah you can do the old fasioned way but doing it that way gets people hurt and not just the cops but the suspects too.

[DerekSnider]

Ok sure but the problem is by putting hands on him you increase the chance of either him or them getting injured by and exponential margin. The taser elminates the chance that either party gets injured.

Isn't it innocent until proven guilty? ...The student didn't show a weapon, therefore, you should assume he doesn't have one. I definutely think there's exceptions to assuming a person has a weapon, but this is not one of them.

And, if a cop is tasering a suspect, how is that eliminating the possibility of EITHER party getting injured? I think it's a fair bet to say the guy getting tasered is going to get injured.

[worm]

Ok sure but the problem is by putting hands on him you increase the chance of either him or them getting injured by and exponential margin. The taser elminates the chance that either party gets injured.

Yeah you can do the old fasioned way but doing it that way gets people hurt and not just the cops but the suspects too.

So, are we going to start calling you guys taser maintenance technicians now?

I can understand what you're saying, however, that's my immediate problem. Was there some large group bitching about injury in casual detainment, is that why tasers were invented? A spaz may spaz out and get hurt when he is arrested and I guess if you tase that spaz, good job, your cop instincts must be up to snuff. However, I look kind of spazzy, but I'm not. I don't want to get tased. Your "it's for the tasee's own good" line sounds fine. However, I think the taser is becoming means to an end that used to be filled by conversation, diplomacy, and courtesy. I'm not arguing against it entirely. However, someone in a college library? Come on.

I watched some of the video and it really seemed to reveal nothing. I don't know if you have the one zapruder shot, a police report, or a third eye. I'm going off some crap I thought I read in the thread. If you've got the gift of sight beyond sight, please share.


I think it's a fair bet to say the guy getting tasered is going to get injured.
Pain, not permanent injury. Come on, marcus is going to seize on this shit, don't let him.

[MikeSofaer]

Marcus is totally right here. Tasers hurt, but they don't injure. I'd rather be tasered than pull a muscle in my shoulder getting arm-barred.

Once they'd made the decision to arrest, and the kid was screaming, the taser is the right choice.

[Marcus]

The student didn't show a weapon, therefore, you should assume he doesn't have one.


Oh hell no you don't you never assume someone doesn't have a weapon.


I think it's a fair bet to say the guy getting tasered is going to get injured.

Well if he falls and on the ground hard yeah he might get hurt but if we have to tackle him he is sure as shit going to get hurt. With the taser the risk of getting hurt is very very low.



Was there some large group bitching about injury in casual detainment, is that why tasers were invented? Actually kinda yeah there were too many cases in which people had been hurt while trying to arrest someone that using the taser could have solved.

[DerekSnider]

Pain, not permanent injury. Come on, marcus is going to seize on this shit, don't let him.

Bad Derek.

[worm]

Well if he falls and on the ground hard yeah he might get hurt but if we have to tackle him he is sure as shit going to get hurt. With the taser the risk of getting hurt is very very low.
Okay, I am imagining a police academy test called "tase or tackle" where you are shown pictures really quickly and have to hit the 'tase' button or the 'tackle' button. Is this hot or cold?


Once they'd made the decision to arrest, and the kid was screaming, the taser is the right choice.
1.) Don't scream at cops. They will tase you for it, because screaming is an obvious sign of mania.
2.) ?

[DerekSnider]

Oh hell no you don't you never assume someone doesn't have a weapon.

The guy's studying in a college library. He's not some crack head you picked up off the street.
He didn't have a weapon...but you assumed he did.



With the taser the risk of getting hurt is very very low.

Ya, let's just forget that people have died from tasers.

[Marcus]

Okay, I am imagining a police academy test called "tase or tackle" where you are shown pictures really quickly and have to hit the 'tase' button or the 'tackle' button. Is this hot or cold?

Um no but they do show us the correct way to tase someone and then quickly take them in to custody with little chance of injury.


1.) Don't scream at cops. They will tase you for it, because screaming is an obvious sign of mania.
2.) ?

Actually its kinda showing that you are willing to challenge them and if you are going to scream at them then the odds are pretty high that you might just be willing to fight them when they go to place the cuffs on you. Also if there is a person we are trying to detain and they are screaming at us they go in cuffs untill they are willing to calm down and talk like a normal person.

[Not One Of Us]

Oh hell no you don't you never assume someone doesn't have a weapon.
"Oh shit! It's a cop! History and common sense tells me they treat everyone guilty until proven innocent! He'll kick my ass and kill my family and get off scott free! Must cap the pig first for my own safety!"

Lighter post option:

I vote to stake the police.

[worm]

Actually its kinda showing that you are willing to challenge them and if you are going to scream at them then the odds are pretty high that you might just be willing to fight them when they go to place the cuffs on you.
What? Do you have some statistics from the dark ages? Seeing as how you're a tase-baby I have no idea how you can make this relationship reliably, seeing as you have justly tased everyone who screamed at you ever as an officer.


Also if there is a person we are trying to detain and they are screaming at us they go in cuffs untill they are willing to calm down and talk like a normal person.
You mean tase then cuffs right? If they're not calm after the tasing I can't imagine what you did wrong.

[Marcus]

The guy's studying in a college library. He's not some crack head you picked up off the street.
He didn't have a weapon...but you assumed he did.


We always assume everyone has a weapon because nearly everyone does. Keys, books , bags, laptops pretty much anything you name can be a weapon.


Ya, let's just forget that people have died from tasers.

Yes but lets also take a close look at the people that did die and see that a pretty good percentage of them were on some type of drug at the time.

[DerekSnider]

Um no but they do show us the correct way to tase someone and then quickly take them in to custody with little chance of injury.

Do they show you how to tase, tase, tase, tase, tase, and then quickly take them in to custody, too? ..with little chace of injury?

[Marcus]

What? Do you have some statistics from the dark ages? Seeing as how you're a tase-baby I have no idea how you can make this relationship reliably, seeing as you have justly tased everyone who screamed at you ever as an officer.


You mean tase then cuffs right? If they're not calm after the tasing I can't imagine what you did wrong.

OK You are a fucking idiot.

[DerekSnider]

Yes but lets also take a close look at the people that did die and see that a pretty good percentage of them were on some type of drug at the time.

You're right. They deserved to die.

[worm]

OK You are a fucking idiot.
I'm sorry for that.


We always assume everyone has a weapon because nearly everyone does. Keys, books , bags, laptops pretty much anything you name can be a weapon.
Oh god. this sounds like a great game tag line. Marcus, would you advise me on the creation of the new hit game Tase & Cuff?

[Marcus]

Do they show you how to tase, tase, tase, tase, tase, and then quickly take them in to custody, too? ..with little chace of injury?

I've said it a few times now but I'll say it again because you are slow I guess.

They had him in custody after the first tase.

[Marcus]

You're right. They deserved to die.

Nice leap there.

[DerekSnider]

I've said it a few times now but I'll say it again because you are slow I guess.
They had him in custody after the first tase.

So the need to tase him four more times was...

[worm]

Can you hear the tasing on the video?

[Marcus]

So the need to tase him four more times was...

Dont ask me I wasn't there and neither were you but I guess you have a better idea what happened then I do.

[DerekSnider]

Oh god. this sounds like a great game tag line. Marcus, would you advise me on the creation of the new hit game Tase & Cuff?

I don't want to play.

[Marcus]

Can you hear the tasing on the video?

Yes listen for the fast clicking sound... oh yeah and the kid screaming.

[worm]

Dont ask me I wasn't there and neither were you but I guess you have a better idea what happened then I do.
Hold on. You're imagining a scenario where a guy in a college library without his ID could be tased, put into custody, and then require FOUR MORE TASINGS? Can you please flesh out this scenario for us Marcus? We'd all love to hear it.

[DerekSnider]

Dont ask me

You saw the video, same as me.
How can you not admit that the cops were out of line?
They tased him once, cuffed him, and then tased him four more times. That's extreme "caution".

[bago]

The people are not the enemy. You don't use military tactics on them.

[Marcus]

You're imagining a scenario where a guy in a college library without his ID could be tased, put into custody, and then require FOUR MORE TASINGS?

Yes there are lots of scenarios that would require something like that but since you guys seem to think that pretty much any tasing is bad bad bad I dont feel the need to lay each one out because you'd just say " well why wouldn't you just use your issued whips!?"

[worm]

Yes there are lots of scenarios that would require something like that but since you guys seem to think that pretty much any tasing is bad bad bad I dont feel the need to lay each one out because you'd just say " well why wouldn't you just use your issued whips!?"
No. I'm dead serious. If a guy takes one tase, you get cuffs on him. He's in a school library. What could precipitate those second, third, fourth, and fifth winds that need to be tased out of him? I've been playing lots of GTA and I'm thinking about a life of crime, so I need to know how to refill my life bar and use power moves to bust handcuffs like this fellow in the school library who didn't have his library card almost managed to do.

Imagine if you could only tase people twice then the thing shut off as an anti-torture measure. Why, that would make police work so hard. You'd never be able to deal with a four or five tase situation.

[MikeSofaer]

Cops very rarely publicly come out against other cops. It may not be the best feature of our society, but it's also not Marcus's creation, and it's not fair to single him out about it. He's explicitly not saying the other four taser shots were justified, and that's enough for me.

[Jonathan Blow]

Well like I said before the UCLA cops used the taser to get him in cuffs which is the correct procedure in this case.

Now, whoa, wait a minute. I even have a huge issue with the idea that handcuffing him was okay in the first place.

This depends on facts that have yet to be revealed by witnesses, etc, but I think that if you don't actually tell a student "we need you to show us a student ID card, or leave, otherwise we will arrest you," and give him time to respond, then you shouldn't even be trying to cuff him. Much less brutalizing him with a taser.

The story so far is that he was asked to leave, which it seemed to me was by a librarian or whoever (though again that's unclear from the details so far). If he thought he was being racially discriminated against, it makes lots of sense not to take that very seriously. And it is a huge jump to go from that to suddenly grabbing the dude and arresting him. If that's what happened, it would be highly offensive even if a Taser wasn't involved at all.

Police in a case like this need to make clear that they are considering action, before they take action. It's not about HAHAHA YOU BROKE A LITTLE RULE YOU GAVE US THE SLIGHTEST EXCUZE SO INTO CUFFS YOU GO!!!!! ZAPZAPZAPZAP!!1111!onezap

[Damien Neil]

Y'know, if campus cops tasered every college student that was acting like a loud, belligerent prick, I'll bet half the people on this forum would have been crispy-fried before their sophomore year.

This guy wasn't a drug dealer, a pimp, or an armed robber. He was a kid with a chip on his shoulder. This is not the time for campus police (who are, you might recall, in the business of protecting college kids--angry or otherwise) to start doing their Cartman "respect mah authoritah" act. This IS the time to pull out your conversational judo, talk him down, and defuse the situation without creating an international incident.

Not forgetting, of course, that they fucking tasered a prone, nonaggressive, and possibly handcuffed kid. Repeatedly. For, apparently, the sheer fun of it all.

[shift6]

In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhYCeO67fCs), the cop clearly threatens another student at about 2:20. You can't make out what was said immediately prior, though. Many times the crowd of students asks the cops for identification.
Yeah another cop clearly tells another student right at the very end that he will taser him also, good catch. I only question the "tasing in response to asking for badge numbers" since it hasn't been remotely substantiated.


As far as I know 18 year old girls are still legal.
The best thing about college girls? Even as I get older, they stay the same age.


If you had a Combine Stun baton, yes, I'd fucking expect you to touch them with that. Also, seriously, is this what I should do if a cop pulls me over?
Stun baton = OK, but taser = bad? Or maybe I'm missing sarcasm here.


Isn't it innocent until proven guilty? ...The student didn't show a weapon, therefore, you should assume he doesn't have one. I definutely think there's exceptions to assuming a person has a weapon, but this is not one of them.
Did we need a court hearing to determine if the "suspect" was guilty of "tresspassing"? Does his violent yelling and screaming while refusing to comply not contribute to "maybe this kid is a fucking wacko"?


And, if a cop is tasering a suspect, how is that eliminating the possibility of EITHER party getting injured? I think it's a fair bet to say the guy getting tasered is going to get injured.
It dramatically decreases the chance of injury, and pretty much eliminates the chance for the officer.


The guy's studying in a college library. He's not some crack head you picked up off the street.
He refused to show student ID to the security guards earlier. So if you are a cop going in to this, how do you know he's a student and not a crack head from off the street?


Ya, let's just forget that people have died from tasers.
About 150 in four years, many of which were on drugs or booze at the time. Someone call the local news.

Commie hippy liberal source: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr510302006


Yes listen for the fast clicking sound... oh yeah and the kid screaming.
The kid was doing that most of the time. I had to reply the vid a couple times to listen specifically for the clacking of the taser.


Cops very rarely publicly come out against other cops. It may not be the best feature of our society, but it's also not Marcus's creation, and it's not fair to single him out about it. He's explicitly not saying the other four taser shots were justified, and that's enough for me.
Yeah but three of four anonymous intarweb d00dz are putting him on the spot! I don't know about you, but my faith in the whole system is collapsing under the weight of their arguments!


This depends on facts that have yet to be revealed by witnesses, etc, but I think that if you don't actually tell a student "we need you to show us a student ID card, or leave, otherwise we will arrest you," and give him time to respond, then you shouldn't even be trying to cuff him. Much less brutalizing him with a taser.
Isn't that what the non-PD security did long before the cops got there? Yes. And the kid refused? Yes. And then stayed around long enough for cops to be called and arrive and hadn't yet left as requested? Yes. And then started the scene as in the video instead of just leaving? Yes. How much time do you think the kid needed?

--

What is funniest to me is that if this vid were on COPS and it was some hollering redneck in his trailer park front yard, and it was otherwise the exact same situation, no one would care. But instead it's a brown-skinned freedom fighter at the university, so let's get out the placards and march for his cause!

[Jonathan Blow]

What I meant was, there is a big difference between saying:

1: (Librarian) "Sir, you can't show me an ID, so I require you to leave this library now."

2: (Librarian) "If you don't leave, I am going to call the police."

3: (Police) "We require you to leave this library now."

4: (Police) "You must leave within 1 minute or you will be arrested."


I think proper escalation requires all 4 of these steps. For all I know, maybe it went 1, then 2, then jumped all the way to step 9 or 10 somewhere which is "cuff him and taser the crap out of him", without the intermediate steps.

Certainly if he was leaving and the cops grabbed him at the door, which is what he said and what the video at least suggests, then steps 3 and 4 were skipped.

[Jonathan Blow]

And then started the scene as in the video instead of just leaving? Yes. How much time do you think the kid needed?

His statement is that they grabbed him as he was leaving. If that's true, they started the scene, not him, and in fact the police prevented him from leaving just so that they could arrest him -- which implies that their goal was not to enforce the library rule, but rather discipline anyone who challenged authority.

I'm not saying that this is clearly true, just that it seems likely, and the "the kid deserved to be arrested" angle makes a lot of assumptions.

[Arbit]

What is funniest to me is that if this vid were on COPS and it was some hollering redneck in his trailer park front yard, and it was otherwise the exact same situation, no one would care. But instead it's a brown-skinned freedom fighter at the university, so let's get out the placards and march for his cause!
What the fuck are you talking about? Everyone agrees the guy is a douchebag, why would it matter if it's Joe McSisterfuck or Azir McJihadi? The point is cops tasering the shit out of people for no reason is freaky and wrong.

[shift6]

I think proper escalation requires all 4 of these steps. For all I know, maybe it went 1, then 2, then jumped all the way to step 9 or 10 somewhere which is "cuff him and taser the crap out of him", without the intermediate steps.

Certainly if he was leaving and the cops grabbed him at the door, which is what he said and what the video at least suggests, then steps 3 and 4 were skipped.
Fair enough. It's too bad that the video doesn't start until the freaking out has already begun. Everything that any of us have before that is secondhand hearsay at best.


His statement is that they grabbed him as he was leaving.
University libraries are huge, especially UCLA. I'm curious if his "I was leaving" means he had just barely started packing up his backpack and getting up from his seat, or if he was actually on his way out the main building door when they arrived. The video implies to me that at best he was still in the study room, which is hardly the same as halfway out the foyer.

I read that he had refused to give ID and stayed put where he was until he was done (which is when security called the PD), then when he was damn good and ready started to leave. Once again, all secondhand hearsay, but hardly convincing. I mean the kid clearly didn't "deserve" to be tased multiple times, but he's a pretty awful martyr considering that he was also a belligerant ass.

[MikeSofaer]

The kid stuck around at the library after being asked to leave long enough for the cops to show. I don't know that arresting him was wise, but he was clearly trespassing at that point.

[shift6]

What the fuck are you talking about? Everyone agrees the guy is a douchebag, why would it matter if it's Joe McSisterfuck or Azir McJihadi? The point is cops tasering the shit out of people for no reason is freaky and wrong.
I don't know what thread you're reading, but I hardly see everyone agreeing that the guy is a douchebag. I see tons of anti-police posts though, including trumped up unsubstantiated claims that they threatened to tase other for asking the PD for badge numbers. Then of course you've got some fairly idiotic anonymous screeds against Marcus because he's a cop who is explaining how and why tasers are used in the field. Nevermind the fact that cops get shot pulling people over for speeding tickets, I guess it's a WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY when some idiot in a library is flailing about and yelling about fascism. You've got people whining about taser-related deaths without looking at the numbers (averages less than 50 a year) and thinking about how many other injuries are prevented.

Then we have some of the usual suspects in this thread posting the same old anti-cop drivel as always. One, I won't name names, has posted threads here in the past which are so blatantly retarded anti-cop fabrications as to be laughable. One of them comes to mind and I don't remember one single poster who agreed with him. But here he has shown up again, railing against the pigs.

You've got basically a bunch of armchair quarterbacks trying to tell a cop how to properly restrain a belligerant, un-cooperative douchebag who is making a huge scene, and my point was that if it were on COPS, we'd all be having a good chuckle at the redneck, but since it's a young brown man standing up against the jackbooted fasicsts, then every single thing they did was wrong and every single thing we hear or can infer about the procedure is wrong and we'll even make up some shit because they probably did that too. And then the other side: every single thing the kid did was within his rights because he's a citizen in a public place and doesn't have to show ID and besides he has a medical condition because he says so and he was on his way out despite still being in the study area an

OK I'm done. Be safe today Marcus. If you feel threatened in some way and have to tase some shithead a couple times to make sure that you go home to your wife and kids today, DO IT. Fuck the bozos, including some people on QT3.

[MikeSofaer]

Sure, that's great, but the cops were clearly out of line, continuing to taser him when handcuffed on the ground.

Watch the video again using /s/stand up/dance, boy, dance/

[olaf]

I dont think they were out of line. If the guy had enough time to continue popping off and talking shit, in between shocks, he had enough time to get the fuck up off the ground.

[Robert Sharp]

For the record, Shift, when I first heard this story I thought the cops crossed the line and I didn't even know the race of the student. And I'm not anti-cop, either. They do a great job, overall, and I'm glad we have them. We tend to focus on the mistakes and not the good work, and that's a shame. Still ,there ARE mistakes made, and I think this is one of them.

[magnet]

my point was that if it were on COPS, we'd all be having a good chuckle at the redneck
You know what else is funny? The Rodney King video. Comedy gold, man!

[Not One Of Us]

You know what else is funny? The Rodney King video. Comedy gold, man!
Oh! Oh! Also! That video where the Iraq vet mouths off to the cop, and the cop tells him to get up, and he does, and the cops shoots him three times? Fucking classic.