WoW 2.0.1 PTR Notes

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

Click Me. (http://www.wowinsider.com/2006/11/14/ptrs-online-well-sorta/)

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

Lots of good changes in there... no more easy Nef kills though.

[Vincent_GC]

Yeah....i'll wait a few days before trying to get the test realm patch

[Mark Crump]

I should probably make a not of what my talents are currently set for then.

[Lorini]

Anybody have a link to a mirror? I can't get it to download from the wow server.

Lorini

[Skipper]

I think I'll reroll Lock. Where's my "it's now easier to look at QT3 and heal in raids" patch message?

[Qmanol]

Woot, longer drain life!

[Rywill]

Longer range on Drain Life is definitely nice for Afflication-specced Warlocks. I am still sort of annoyed that they took one of our class abilities (summoning) and gave it to everyone, without giving us anything in exchange, though. Hopefully meeting stones will start casting Mark of the Wild and rezzing dead party members soon!

[Mike Cathcart]

Lots of good changes in there... no more easy Nef kills though.
I don't know, none of the current raids were tuned with stacking HoTs or 41 point talents in mind. I wonder how much easier that will make things, because it doesn't sound like they redid all of the boss fights.

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

I don't know, none of the current raids were tuned with stacking HoTs or 41 point talents in mind. I wonder how much easier that will make things, because it doesn't sound like they redid all of the boss fights.
That's true, but the "Fixed an issue where Warrior "Battle Shout" was causing too much threat." likely means that the incredibly easy method of doing the Nef adds is going to stop working.

[Skipper]

That's true, but the "Fixed an issue where Warrior "Battle Shout" was causing too much threat." likely means that the incredibly easy method of doing the Nef adds is going to stop working.

First rule of Nef club is we do NOT talk about Nef club!

[Mike Cathcart]

That's true, but the "Fixed an issue where Warrior "Battle Shout" was causing too much threat." likely means that the incredibly easy method of doing the Nef adds is going to stop working.
Yeah, I knew what you meant. I'm just wondering what's bigger, that nerf or the HoT/talent buff.

[Kareem]

"# Skill level now determines what items you can disenchant.

* Skill 1= Level 1-20

* Skill 25= Level 20-25

* Skill 50= Level 25-30

* Skill 75= Level 30-35

* Skill 100= Level 35-40

* Skill 125= Level 40-45

* Skill 150= Level 45-50

* Skill 175= Level 50-55

* Skill 200= Level 55-60

* Skill 225= Level 60-65"

Pwnage? No more disenchanting alts.

[Supertanker]

Pwnage? No more disenchanting alts.

Lucky for me, I have an abandoned 22 paladin that is 225 enchanting. Time to rescue him from obscurity.

[Athryn]

Pwnage? No more disenchanting alts.


This is precisely why I started leveling up enchanting on a character, so I would still be able to.

[mystery]

Pwnage? No more disenchanting alts.

Yea, so that pretty much limits my money-making capabilities on...brand new servers.

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

This is precisely why I started leveling up enchanting on a character, so I would still be able to.
I saved every obsolete soulbound purple and blue I've earned in the last year and temporarily abondoned herbalism to DE them before this change went in.

[olaf]

This is the patch that breaks decursive-like mods? Thats going to suck.

[Skipper]

This is the patch that breaks decursive-like mods? Thats going to suck.

Yep, I agree. However did you see this?



To: All Healing Classes
From: Blizzard Entertainment
Date: On the first raid after you upgrade.
Subject: Great news!

Hey there healer! We know you're pretty ticked off about the whole backstabbing mess of the new UI and all you're precious mods. But no hard feelings right!?! Besides, in a show of respect and class we'd like to offer you a nice parting gift and thank you for playing.

Simply go here to sign up for your gift! And remember, when you play with Blizzard, you're playing with a bunch of classy guys who don't really give a rats ass unless you DPS. Cheers!

http://lotro.turbine.com/betasignup

[mystery]

Yep, I agree. However did you see this?

...all you're precious mods...

Did he just call me a "precious mod"?

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

This is the patch that breaks decursive-like mods? Thats going to suck.

Heal mods are crutches... I've been healing without stuff like Emergency Monitor for a while since this was announced. You get used to not having it rather quickly.

[Skipper]

Heal mods are crutches... I've been healing without stuff like Emergency Monitor for a while since this was announced. You get used to not having it rather quickly.

We all did old-school for a time. I did anyway. But now I'm all about three lines I watch: The warrior class list, the CT_RA tank targets, and CT_RA Emergency Monitor. Oh and I click to heal direct spells, none of that logic stuff.

What gets me is, unless they've changed it, two of the three things I watched are now gone (or not targetable), forcing me to go back to old school, watching 8 group bars or class bars. Stupid change if you ask me. I don't think it trivialized anything, and I was able to see a lot more of the action when I wasn't scanning.

[mouselock]

What gets me is, unless they've changed it, two of the three things I watched are now gone (or not targetable), forcing me to go back to old school, watching 8 group bars or class bars. Stupid change if you ask me. I don't think it trivialized anything, and I was able to see a lot more of the action when I wasn't scanning.

Look, you just have to accept that different classes play different ways. DPS classes play against the mobs, healers play against the interface, and that's clearly the way it's supposed to be.

(Yes, it's a fucking stupid change.)

[McBain]

That's true, but the "Fixed an issue where Warrior "Battle Shout" was causing too much threat." likely means that the incredibly easy method of doing the Nef adds is going to stop working.

Erm, it's been months since I played, but does that really even matter? A decent prot. spec warrior can hold nearly an entire side by himself with just sunder, shieldslam, CB, and demo shout. Phase 3, Challenging Shout + Shield Wall + Grenades + Nukes = GG.

Nef will still be a total fucking joke for Alliance, and a reasonably humorous joke for Horde guilds with one good tank and one halfway decent offtank.

If anything, it's a massive nerf to the "tank the Emps with 2 warriors" strategy my guild used. Might even completely break that strat.

Also, I'm laughing my ass off at the removal of decursive. Can't wait to see how many guilds will be unable to field a sufficient number of healers after that goes live.


P.S. GET MENDOZA

[DeepT]

Yay, now even more paladins will be desired on raids. Boo, now even more paladins will become cleanse bots.

[Skipper]

I agree with you mouselock, I accepted it long ago as a healer in another game (and carried it over as a Priest in WoW.) WoW didn't change anything, it was the mod developers that did and opened my eyes a little bit to seeing that it could be made more fun. It's not their fault that others found a more fun way of doing something. I guess a part of me had just wished they would see that and adopt it as their own.

Also, my memo above was just some PTR tongue in cheek humor. I don't hate DPS classes in any way, hell all my alts are DPS. I truly enjoy being the glue that keeps groups together though, and healers tend to be that glue. Here's hoping that the next round of MMO's enhance the gameplay of the healing classes a bit more though. I think it can be done.

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

We all did old-school for a time. I did anyway. But now I'm all about three lines I watch: The warrior class list, the CT_RA tank targets, and CT_RA Emergency Monitor. Oh and I click to heal direct spells, none of that logic stuff.

What gets me is, unless they've changed it, two of the three things I watched are now gone (or not targetable), forcing me to go back to old school, watching 8 group bars or class bars. Stupid change if you ask me. I don't think it trivialized anything, and I was able to see a lot more of the action when I wasn't scanning.

CT_RA tank list will be clickable. The only thing going away is emergency monitor. The tank list will only be changeable out of combat, otherwise you'd just be able to build an emergency monitor. Clickable lists of characters won't be changable in combat.

[Skipper]

CT_RA tank list will be clickable. The only thing going away is emergency monitor. The tank list will only be changeable out of combat, otherwise you'd just be able to build an emergency monitor. Clickable lists of characters won't be changable in combat.

That's great news. So that's 2 out of 3. I've seen next gen Grid and the other one too (I forget the name of it.) I've also seen posts about the new version of clique but I'm not in beta so i can't try any of those. The consensus seems to be that it was shocking and bad at first but the new UI and mods being used in beta isn't THAT bad.

Rainier if you know anything about it, what was their reason for dropping the ranking ability of emergency monitor anyway?

[Kunikos]

Healers are just root-beer tappers.

[Skipper]

Healers are just root-beer tappers.

DPS'ers think 2,2,2,2,2,3 makes for great gameplay. :p

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

Rainier if you know anything about it, what was their reason for dropping the ranking ability of emergency monitor anyway?
For a long time there has been a big gap between players who had it and players who didn't. I know I've gotten very frustrated pugging 5-10 mans and saying "why aren't you decursing? use decursive" and the response is "what?"

Blizzard needed to either integrate this functionality into the game or put an end to it and they chose the latter.

[Ranulf]

For a long time there has been a big gap between players who had it and players who didn't. I know I've gotten very frustrated pugging 5-10 mans and saying "why aren't you decursing? use decursive" and the response is "what?"

Blizzard needed to either integrate this functionality into the game or put an end to it and they chose the latter.

and I hate them for it. I've tried clique briefly in the beta and it seems to work ok with my druid and I might like it better once I get used to it. I miss my benecast (never used the auto spell level option, it was too buggy) buttons though and decursive. It just made things easier in the UI and took out tedium. I love healing but Im thinking my hunter or rogue will become my mains again instead of my druid. Its just not worth the aggrivation/stress to heal "old school" style.

[MarchHare]

# Weapon Skill now does the following:
# Weapon skill will no longer reduce the percentage damage lost due to glancing.
# The player will gain 0.1% to their critical strike rating per weapon skill against monsters above their level.


GRRRRRRRRR.

The best change rogues got in their class review in 1.12 was the new Weapon Expertise talent, which gave us +5 weapon skill. Then, in the very next patch, Blizzard changes the functionality of weapon skill to make it all but worthless. This nerf means about a 10-15% reduction to rogue and dps warrior total damage output in raids, assuming smart players who had +10 weapon skill.

[Skipper]

Blizzard needed to either integrate this functionality into the game or put an end to it and they chose the latter.

Seems kind of an authoritarianist decision by them but hey, it's their game, and their right to change it. Especially now, a year and a half after release.


Besides, I'm just a click-happy, dumb, foolhardy customer.



.... wait a second.

[mouselock]

Blizzard needed to either integrate this functionality into the game or put an end to it and they chose the latter.

There was a third option:

Make curses (and heals and the like) a matter of intelligent decision. If the monsters can only throw one curse up on you at a time like a warlock, maybe you want to leave the not-so-bad curse up so that they can't land the really nasty one. If there are more curses that go boom on removal, suddenly there's some inherent gameplay in determining whether or not you need to decurse.

My complaint has been, and will continue to be, that by removing and blocking decursive utility they haven't increased the difficulty or the complexity of the game. (I still see a curse and think "Okay, need to remove that now." It's still, in 99.5% of the game, a binary decision which means, effectively, no decision at all.) Instead, they just made sure I had to run through their UI maze the same way as everyone else to do it. That's 'game design' of the utterly laziest type.

[Backov]

So with the demise of Decursive, I'm going to need some sort of frameset mod or whatever they call it that will properly show debuffs, curses etc on friendlies - what's a good choice for that?

I used to use Cosmos, but it was annoying me so I ditched and went back to the base WoW UI with just a few added things like the auctioneer set, gatherer, EQL, etc..

[Skipper]

So with the demise of Decursive, I'm going to need some sort of frameset mod or whatever they call it that will properly show debuffs, curses etc on friendlies - what's a good choice for that?

I used to use Cosmos, but it was annoying me so I ditched and went back to the base WoW UI with just a few added things like the auctioneer set, gatherer, EQL, etc..


Here's two ready for play in 2.0 already. Not saying they are great, just saying they are working so far.
http://www.wowace.com/wiki/Perfect_Raid
http://www.wowace.com/wiki/Grid

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

There was a third option:

Make curses (and heals and the like) a matter of intelligent decision. If the monsters can only throw one curse up on you at a time like a warlock, maybe you want to leave the not-so-bad curse up so that they can't land the really nasty one. If there are more curses that go boom on removal, suddenly there's some inherent gameplay in determining whether or not you need to decurse.

My complaint has been, and will continue to be, that by removing and blocking decursive utility they haven't increased the difficulty or the complexity of the game. (I still see a curse and think "Okay, need to remove that now." It's still, in 99.5% of the game, a binary decision which means, effectively, no decision at all.) Instead, they just made sure I had to run through their UI maze the same way as everyone else to do it. That's 'game design' of the utterly laziest type.

Blizzard already does this for some encounters and its irrelevant any way. I don't see how this qualifies as a third option. This is an interface question, not a game mechanic.

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

So with the demise of Decursive, I'm going to need some sort of frameset mod or whatever they call it that will properly show debuffs, curses etc on friendlies - what's a good choice for that?

I used to use Cosmos, but it was annoying me so I ditched and went back to the base WoW UI with just a few added things like the auctioneer set, gatherer, EQL, etc..
CTRA does this by allowing you to color code debuffed friendlys, and that functionality isn't going away, which is why I think the loss of decursive is no big deal. The mechanic for decursing will become exactly the same as it is for healing HP.

[Skipper]

Losing Decursive doesn't bother me that much. It's not that much harder manually (though you have to look at the bars more.)

The problems I am having are the inability to downrank as much before (without a penalty to +heal), and a targetable, sortable list of folks to heal (aka Emergency Monitor). The former item there may end up being a non-issue, I haven't played beta and found out though. But the latter is gone for good according to Blizzard.

There are complaints by others that things like whispercast, panza, water mods, etc do not work, but I've always manually targeted for that anyway or traded for what I need for manually.

[mouselock]

Blizzard already does this for some encounters and its irrelevant any way. I don't see how this qualifies as a third option. This is an interface question, not a game mechanic.

No it's not. There are dynamic, in game mechanisms that could be enacted to require thought about decursing. The fact that decursive is so useful as an automated add on is directly tired to the fact that 99.9% of the time the following binary valued functional test is all that's need to decide whether or not to decurse:

if (target == cursed)

There's no reason to have to think about decursing.

Basically, the reason there's such a big difference between whether or not you have the UI modification installed is because there's no intelligence behind whether or not you decurse. If someone is cursed, you decurse. Period. Relying on sluggish responses or the inability to click as precisely is a pretty poor method of increasing encounter difficulty. If they required more thought behind decursing, the difference between a good decurser and a bad one wouldn't be whether or not you have a mod designed to reduce the 0.5s targetting time to 0.1s, it would instead be whether or not the user behind the interface could make quicker snap decisions about prioritizing one of a number of actions.

WoW isn't an action game. It's not built as an action game, and it's never going to be one. Pretending you can couch "gameplay" in how well one does/doesn't manipulate the UI is pretty stupid in that context.

[olaf]

Its funny but it seems like a lot of you think the removal of decursive wont change anything. I think you guys are high. There is a 0% chance that debuff removal is going to be as efficient as it was before, with the mod enabled. Even if you personally are going to be some kind of robot freak about it (and, based on my experience with the playerbase, thats unlikely) I can 100% guarantee your entire guild/raid isnt going to be, especially not overnight. The functionality they are taking away from mods like decursive really helped to make content 'easier' and raids are going to feel it when it goes away. Maybe they are completely writing off 40 man content but if they dont, I would be shocked if some of the current debuff heavy fights are not retuned later on.

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

There are dynamic, in game mechanisms that could be enacted to require thought about decursing.
This already exists in the game for several boss encounters.



There's no reason to have to think about decursing.

Yes, there is. See above.


Basically, the reason there's such a big difference between whether or not you have the UI modification installed is because there's no intelligence behind whether or not you decurse. If someone is cursed, you decurse. Period.
Incorrect.


WoW isn't an action game. It's not built as an action game, and it's never going to be one. Pretending you can couch "gameplay" in how well one does/doesn't manipulate the UI is pretty stupid in that context.
How much endgame WoW have you played?

[Skipper]

Its funny but it seems like a lot of you think the removal of decursive wont change anything. I think you guys are high. There is a 0% chance that debuff removal is going to be as efficient as it was before, with the mod enabled. Even if you personally are going to be some kind of robot freak about it (and, based on my experience with the playerbase, thats unlikely) I can 100% guarantee your entire guild/raid isnt going to be, especially not overnight. The functionality they are taking away from mods like decursive really helped to make content 'easier' and raids are going to feel it when it goes away. Maybe they are completely writing off 40 man content but if they dont, I would be shocked if some of the current debuff heavy fights are not retuned later on.

Olaf, although it won't bother ME much as a player, I DO agree with you. I say this because it is a requirement to have the mod in every guild I've been in. It's a requirement for joining most pug raids as well. That means a huge percentage of debuffing classes use it now, and they will definately have a hard time of it.

And lets face it, I don't buy the party line about "they had to take it into account on design so by removing it, they no longer are bound to that." That's a crock of shit. I know what that means. That means now when Blizzard puts in heavy decurse fights (which every single debuffing class loathes) it will be for spite, knowing it's a pain in the ass.

That's not fun for gameplay, it's a lack of creativity to challenge the players in a better, more thought invoking way.

[Skipper]

How much endgame WoW have you played?

Wait ... why should the end game be different? So once you hit end game it's okay to drift from MMORPG into MMOFPS style gameplay?

Naxx has been a big exception to the rule, but some of the scripted bosses have been pretty boring or not challenging or just plain pain in the ass. Tigule has his reasons for doing what he does I guess. But I agree with the poster. This is still an RPG. Keeping twich to as much of a minimum as possible (within constraints of course) should be an goal in their develpment.

[mouselock]

This already exists in the game for several boss encounters.

For 'several'? Riiiiight. And the total percentage of content that's seen by people (especially the large, plebian masses) that this represents is...?

Besides, you've just made my point for me, unless you run with guys who spam decursive in these fights, decursive can be 100% negated by interesting and challenging encounter design, rather than hamfisted UI restrictions.

The fundamental problem is that curses come down to "curse == bad" and similarly heals come down to "most wounded == most necessary to heal" (For non MT healers) and this is a reliable paradigm. Give me curses that negate a druid's ability to heal but double a priests, and suddenly I have to make far more complex value judgements and decursive becomes useless. "Do I remove the curse so our druids can heal, or do I leave it on so the free priest gets double mana efficiency. Do I trust the priest to pick up on the curse and switch targets? Do I trust the druids to pick up the priest's previous target?"

That's actual gameplay of an interesting variety. Making me click on the guy with the curse symbol and then hit the cure curse button directly, that's not gameplay. It's simply interface twitch.

[MarchHare]

I've seen all the raid bosses through to the end of AQ40 and the first few bosses in Naxx. I can only think of one encounter where "selective decursing" is required (Princess Huhuran, where you only want to de-sleep the MT and OT but leave everyone else who is hit by Wyvern Sting poisoned until it wears off by itself). Every other fight falls into the "all curses are bad and need to be removed ASAP" paradigm.

I can't wait to see how guilds that have been farming Chromaggus for over a year deal with not being able to use decursive now...

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

Its funny but it seems like a lot of you think the removal of decursive wont change anything. I think you guys are high. There is a 0% chance that debuff removal is going to be as efficient as it was before, with the mod enabled. Even if you personally are going to be some kind of robot freak about it (and, based on my experience with the playerbase, thats unlikely) I can 100% guarantee your entire guild/raid isnt going to be, especially not overnight. The functionality they are taking away from mods like decursive really helped to make content 'easier' and raids are going to feel it when it goes away. Maybe they are completely writing off 40 man content but if they dont, I would be shocked if some of the current debuff heavy fights are not retuned later on.
I never said it wouldn't change the game or make decursing less efficient. It will certainly make certain encounters a different and more difficult experience. But in the end, players will adapt, or they won't advance. Its not the end of the world, but is definitely a change.

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

I can't wait to see how guilds that have been farming Chromaggus for over a year deal with not being able to use decursive now...
I've personally tried Chromaggus without decursive, and I don't think it will be that hard to adapt. The amount of time you have to decurse on this encounter before failing to decurse causes "big problems" is quite a long time.

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

Wait ... why should the end game be different? So once you hit end game it's okay to drift from MMORPG into MMOFPS style gameplay?

You're attributing a position to me which I have not stated.

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

For 'several'? Riiiiight. And the total percentage of content that's seen by people (especially the large, plebian masses) that this represents is...?
People who have not encountered this content have no need for decursive in the first place and have probably never heard of it.


Besides, you've just made my point for me, unless you run with guys who spam decursive in these fights, decursive can be 100% negated by interesting and challenging encounter design, rather than hamfisted UI restrictions.
Blizzard has already done so and has stated they will in the future. It is simply not the "third option" you described earlier. Blizzard decided they wanted super efficient decursing to be all or nothing. Even if your required "smart" decursing and left decursive in, people who downloaded the third party app have an advantage because the mod can be carefully customized to behave in specific ways before each encounter.



The fundamental problem is that curses come down to "curse == bad" and similarly heals come down to "most wounded == most necessary to heal" (For non MT healers) and this is a reliable paradigm. Give me curses that negate a druid's ability to heal but double a priests, and suddenly I have to make far more complex value judgements and decursive becomes useless. "Do I remove the curse so our druids can heal, or do I leave it on so the free priest gets double mana efficiency. Do I trust the priest to pick up on the curse and switch targets? Do I trust the druids to pick up the priest's previous target?"

That's actual gameplay of an interesting variety. Making me click on the guy with the curse symbol and then hit the cure curse button directly, that's not gameplay. It's simply interface twitch.
You're making false assumptions about existing paradigms and then suggesting future design pardigms that already exist in the game.

[Mike Cathcart]

No it's not. There are dynamic, in game mechanisms that could be enacted to require thought about decursing.
Until three days later when decursive gets patched to ignore curse A on class B during boss fight C.

[mouselock]

Until three days later when decursive gets patched to ignore curse A on class B during boss fight C.

That's far easier to solve by simply not exposing the name of the curse to the client, making it impossible to trigger off that. There are in-game ways around this that would effectively make curse-borne fights interesting and require gameplay, without opening the players back up to shitty curse-spam fights. Maybe Blizzard will avoid ever curse-spamming us again, in which case the lack of decursive simply won't matter. But then again, if they don't curse spam us, we also don't need decursive any longer, so they could have done nothing to prevent it and it still would have faded out. Couple that with the warlock "Decurse this and go boom" buff and a couple of NPC equivalents, and, again, you could kill off the entire utility of decursive without ever having to restrict the UI.

Better design, not more restrictive interaction paradigms.

[DeepT]

If they had not been using healing as such a crutch in their core game design, then they would not have to have come up with bullshit curse encounters to compensate for the healing mechanic. Its like:

"Ok, you can heal the hell out of people taking steady damage, but can you deal with taking 6k damage all at once? You can't heal through that, can you? No you can't."

[Gordon Cameron]

For a long time there has been a big gap between players who had it and players who didn't. I know I've gotten very frustrated pugging 5-10 mans and saying "why aren't you decursing? use decursive" and the response is "what?"

Conversely, I get frustrated pugging with people who expect me to have mods. The raid game is its own world, but if I can't heal the freakin Baron or the Beast without add-ons, then I will just stop being a priest. Nothing against mods, but the core game interface should be sufficient to do the content. Again, I don't know how this crap shakes down in raids. Different universe as far as I'm concerned.

[Supertanker]

It took Blizzard two years to alphabetize the enchanting list. I feel like they gave up on the UI early on, expecting modders to pick up the slack. Now that Blizzard is getting back to working on the UI, they are stomping on the mods they don't like.

[mystery]

It took Blizzard two years to alphabetize the enchanting list. I feel like they gave up on the UI early on, expecting modders to pick up the slack. Now that Blizzard is getting back to working on the UI, they are stomping on the mods they don't like.

Ehhh, while in some instances (like Decursive) I can see the evidence of wheels churning in some developer's head about game balance and the intention of the encounter, but in the instance of reorganizing the enchanting list, I think they're just taking cues from their modding public and incorporating good ideas back into the base code of the game.

They did this monumentally before: Remember how you used to have to download a mod so that you could Shift-rightclick to pick up everything out of a container automatically?

[Erik Andersson]

I don't think that "stupid" decursive will be impossible in the expansion, just the "intelligent" one that doesn't dispell things like reduced int on warriors and so on. This is the kind of thing they don't want, addons that choose "intelligent" actions based on combat information. Macros are still allowed to cast spells, so all you have to do is to create a macro that says "dispell raid member 1..x" until you run out of space. It might require a few more buttons to spam (since macros have to be <256 characters), but it won't require you to target anything.

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

Conversely, I get frustrated pugging with people who expect me to have mods. The raid game is its own world, but if I can't heal the freakin Baron or the Beast without add-ons, then I will just stop being a priest. Nothing against mods, but the core game interface should be sufficient to do the content. Again, I don't know how this crap shakes down in raids. Different universe as far as I'm concerned.
I agree, which is why I also agree with Blizzard saying "we need to either integrate this or get rid of it".

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

I don't think that "stupid" decursive will be impossible in the expansion, just the "intelligent" one that doesn't dispell things like reduced int on warriors and so on. This is the kind of thing they don't want, addons that choose "intelligent" actions based on combat information. Macros are still allowed to cast spells, so all you have to do is to create a macro that says "dispell raid member 1..x" until you run out of space. It might require a few more buttons to spam (since macros have to be <256 characters), but it won't require you to target anything.
I'm pretty sure "stupid" decursive is impossible, because they have disabled any method for the UI to logically choose a target for you or to draw a clickable place in the UI to target an entity while in combat.

[Erik Andersson]

I'm pretty sure "stupid" decursive is impossible, because they have disabled any method for the UI to logically choose a target for you or to draw a clickable place in the UI to target an entity while in combat.

There is no need to use any logic. If you try to decurse someone who has no curse to remove it will only generate an error message (unless this has been changed), it will not actually cast the spell. As long as the spell is not cast it's ok to continue to try and cast more spells in a macro, this is how simple tanking/riposte macros are made (if one is on cooldown/unavailable try the next...). In this way you could simply have macros that decursed as many as possible in the same macro.

If you want to enhance it you might consider having five buttons with an indicator above, if the indicator is lit then someone in that group is cursed and you have to click the corresponding button. Or you could just bind the macros to adjacent keys and press those until everyone is decursed. I doubt "stupid" decursive is the problem, this is just the simplest solution I thought of, more experienced mod creators might obviously be able to come up with something more sophisticated.

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

There is no need to use any logic. If you try to decurse someone who has no curse to remove it will only generate an error message (unless this has been changed), it will not actually cast the spell. As long as the spell is not cast it's ok to continue to try and cast more spells in a macro, this is how simple tanking/riposte macros are made (if one is on cooldown/unavailable try the next...). In this way you could simply have macros that decursed as many as possible in the same macro.

If you want to enhance it you might consider having five buttons with an indicator above, if the indicator is lit then someone in that group is cursed and you have to click the corresponding button. Or you could just bind the macros to adjacent keys and press those until everyone is decursed. I doubt "stupid" decursive is the problem, this is just the simplest solution I thought of, more experienced mod creators might obviously be able to come up with something more sophisticated.

You'd have to have a button that had to try every target in the raid/party and try to cast on it. I don't know if that would really provide an efficiency.

[Skipper]

I can't wait to see how guilds that have been farming Chromaggus for over a year deal with not being able to use decursive now...

I already know how that will fall out.

Raid Leader:"Why the hell do we have people dying to the curses? Decurse people, this is stupid, pick up your game!"
Melee Type:"Well even if they don't decurse if I actually got healed maybe I would live long enough to do damage. WTF is up with healing?"
Timid Healer:"We're trying guys, give us a bit to get to the decurses okay?"
Mage:"Look all of you don't need decursing okay? Some of you can handle it for a little while."

... *Someone turns into a minion* *Raid wipes*

Raid Leader:"Jesus Christ, can we get heals next time? WTF was that? We've been doing this for months it's not rocket science. Now these new guys need loot lets do this shit again. And I want to see decursing AND healing and no excuses."
Melee Type:"If you can't heal us we can't do our job, you don't see us complaining about the new UI changes do you?"
... *Repeat wipe*
Healer Type leaves the raid.
Healer Type leaves the raid.

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

Unlisted 2.0.1 changes...

* Escape artist is now an instant cast.
* Blood Fury also increases spell damage depending on your class. Increases ranged and melee damage for hunters.
* The Looking For Group Channel has been removed.
* The Quest log has been expanded to hold 25 quests.
* All hunter pets have been normalized to a 2.0 speed. *unconfirmed*
* Warlock's Spellstones and Firestones can be equipped in the Wand slot.
* Many profession that used to require a recipe, plan, etc, to learn are now trainable by the corresponding profession trainer. (No, we don't have any details on which.)
* Spells automatically update on your action bar when new ranks are purchased.
* A hunter's Arcane Shot benefits more from ranged attack power. *unconfirmed*
* Four new bank slots! And an extra bag slot that costs 25g to purchase.
* New quests have been added throughout the zones. Including various Draenei and Blood Elf camps.
* Many new items have been added to various vendors, including jewelcrafting plans.
* All class specific spell books that previously dropped in dungeons are now trainable at level 60.
* Players can change their title from a drop down menu to show their highest PvP rank next to their name.

[Erik Andersson]

You'd have to have a button that had to try every target in the raid/party and try to cast on it. I don't know if that would really provide an efficiency.

This is essentially what decursive does now. In order for it to know who to decurse it has to iterate through the entire raid and all debuffs. The debuff iteration will in the macro version be handled by the spell cast instead of the mod, but this shouldn't matter much.

[Skipper]

Unlisted 2.0.1 changes...
* Four new bank slots! And an extra bag slot that costs 25g to purchase.

Thank god. I needed these like 2 months ago.

[Erik Andersson]

I already know how that will fall out.

Raid Leader:"Why the hell do we have people dying to the curses? Decurse people, this is stupid, pick up your game!"
Melee Type:"Well even if they don't decurse if I actually got healed maybe I would live long enough to do damage. WTF is up with healing?"
Timid Healer:"We're trying guys, give us a bit to get to the decurses okay?"
Mage:"Look all of you don't need decursing okay? Some of you can handle it for a little while."

... *Someone turns into a minion* *Raid wipes*

Raid Leader:"Jesus Christ, can we get heals next time? WTF was that? We've been doing this for months it's not rocket science. Now these new guys need loot lets do this shit again. And I want to see decursing AND healing and no excuses."
Melee Type:"If you can't heal us we can't do our job, you don't see us complaining about the new UI changes do you?"
... *Repeat wipe*
Healer Type leaves the raid.
Healer Type leaves the raid.

It's true that removing decursive will make Chromaggus very tedious for decursers, but a healer that is simply unable to decurse on Chrom without decursive should never have been invited into the raid in the first place. Honestly, if you think it's actually hard to manually decurse on Chromaggus you won't have much success with difficult bosses.

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

This is essentially what decursive does now. In order for it to know who to decurse it has to iterate through the entire raid and all debuffs. The debuff iteration will in the macro version be handled by the spell cast instead of the mod, but this shouldn't matter much.
No, not really. It starts to cycle through targets, checking to see if the target has something you're able to decurse, and only then casts, and then quits immediately.

Now you'd have to iterate over every single person, every time and attempt to cast on all of them.

[Skipper]

It's true that removing decursive will make Chromaggus very tedious for decursers, but a healer that is simply unable to decurse on Chrom without decursive should never have been invited into the raid in the first place. Honestly, if you think it's actually hard to manually decurse on Chromaggus you won't have much success with difficult bosses.

*points at his lame joke attempt that flow over*

I'm in naxx bud, I completely understand the dynamic and have no problem doing both healing and decursing. I don't think either are hard. I don't have a problem with hard bosses. I do think the mods made them easier though.

Maybe it's just our server, but out of the healers in the raid we DO have some that will struggle with this change. There also aren't many horde side healers that aren't guilded on the server. Of the ones we land, we seem to get either great healers, or ones that pull very little weight. I'm not sure why. As it stands now, we'll run with around 10-15 healers, sometimes more (Priest/Druid/Shaman). Three of them do more than 40% of the work and that's no joke. Maybe I'm reading too much into this change but I'm betting those three will have no problem at all shifting. And I'm also betting some of the others might.

You could point a haughty finger at them and say, "they lacked the skills." Whatever. I don't feel that way. I think if they get that type of attitude though, they'll just leave the game, or not play a healing class. So the problem with finiding healers will get worse.

I will also say, when was the last time your guild let a healer in a raid WITHOUT having decursive and CT_RA? Of all the guilds past MC on our server it's mandatory. Repeat, all.

[DeepT]

They just need to come up with raids that do not require such mindless mechanics. I wish there was an offiical channel for "submit a raid encounter" because I have one that doesn't depend on aggro, tanking or even healing (if players paying attention).

[Skipper]

They just need to come up with raids that do not require such mindless mechanics. I wish there was an offiical channel for "submit a raid encounter" because I have one that doesn't depend on aggro, tanking or even healing (if players paying attention).

Makes you wonder why MMO's don't release dev tools for user submitted dungeons and incorporate the best in an expansion release.

[DeepT]

Id be happy with an email address.

[Erik Andersson]

No, not really. It starts to cycle through targets, checking to see if the target has something you're able to decurse, and only then casts, and then quits immediately.

Now you'd have to iterate over every single person, every time and attempt to cast on all of them.

Did you check the decursive source code? I did, and it doesn't work like you describe. Even if it did it would just turn the worst case into the usual case. If the one you are decursing is the last one in the raid you will have to go through the entire raid and all debuffs. Also, once you've cast your macro spell you can't cast anything else (because of cooldowns) so it doesn't even have to check the debuffs.



I will also say, when was the last time your guild let a healer in a raid WITHOUT having decursive and CT_RA? Of all the guilds past MC on our server it's mandatory. Repeat, all.

For us decursive or similar addons were mandatory since Lucifron, I guess it's the same for most guilds. Decursive can be danger too, we've wiped a few times on Noth just because a couple of mages didn't bother getting it to work. If it didn't work they didn't decurse anything at all even when not doing so would kill the whole raid.

Also, although your "story" was obviously written in a humorous way I'm not sure if it really is a joke for most guilds. It could be a good way of finding which healers to get rid of perhaps.

[Mark Asher]

* All hunter pets have been normalized to a 2.0 speed. *unconfirmed*
* A hunter's Arcane Shot benefits more from ranged attack power. *unconfirmed*

I'll confirm both of these. These are changes that have been in the beta. Not sure what is in the PTR, but hunters will probably see that their multi-shot mana cost has been significantly increased. It's really not viable for spamming anymore against single targets. And Aimed Shot now resets the autoshot timer, so it's really only useful as a starter now.

Arcane Shot is the new damage dealer for hunters, along with Steady Shot which they get at level 66. These will be the new shots hunters weave into their shot rotations.

I know there's some controversy about the pets, but the new talents in Beast Mastery include Serpent Strike (think that's the name) which will give you and your pet a 20% hasted attack.

[mystery]

I know there's some controversy about the pets, but the new talents in Beast Mastery include Serpent Strike (think that's the name) which will give you and your pet a 20% hasted attack.

I wish Blizzard wouldn't do stuff like this. I see it as the "Asheron Call"-ing of the game. Remember when AC was brand new, and you had to learn spells and worry about money weight and all that complicated stuff? Then some project manager person decided that was too difficult for the player base to grasp, and dumbed down the game a great deal.

The varying speeds of pets was one of those items that made playing a hunter interesting. You had to travel across zones just to find the pet you wanted. On PvE servers, I used to see night elves making suicide runs to Mulgore just to train the rare 1.0 attack speed lion that would spawn there. The quest to train Broken Tooth at level 37 was a test of your manhood. To walk him into Ironforge after that was a badge of skill and patience. On a PvP server, it frankly marked you as a hunter to be reckoned.

Now they're going to take the flavor out of those pets, and the only way to mark you and your pet as something different is perhaps a rare color scheme, which is hardly going to make a difference to your play style. If they wanted to focus on pet visual customization, I'd prefer a whole set of pet talents that paint racing stripes or flames on the sides of your pet, drop in some air shocks, stick a spoiler on his butt, or put a bumper sticker on him that reads "My other pet is your mom."

[Gunmetal]

There is no need to use any logic. If you try to decurse someone who has no curse to remove it will only generate an error message (unless this has been changed), it will not actually cast the spell. As long as the spell is not cast it's ok to continue to try

You can macro something like Shift-A = cast Backstab() cast SinisterStrike() to backstab when possible, but if it fails cast sinister strike.
You can't do that for rows and rows of decurse targets because each check is server side (to see if your target is valid) and the macro exits immediately

[Stroker Ace]

I can't really agree about hard-to-find pets being badges of honor. I've solo tamed Broken Tooth, the ZG Bat, the Son of Hakkar, the LBRS worg, etc., etc. Players can't even agree on which pet is best for any given scenario. BT/ZGBat are the lazy answers for PvP effectiveness, but there's a lot more to it than pure attack speed.

I welcome the pet attack speed normalization because it will make BM hunters have the fastest pets. Survival hunters with top-speed ZG bats never sat right with me.

Various world-spawn rare pets I've camped, tamed, and released:
-Broken Tooth
-Naraxis
-Uhk'Loc
-Arash'Ethis
-Spiteflayer
-The Rake
-Mazzranache
-Plainstrider Clutchmother

The other "prestige" pets are difficult to get at because they're in instances but they don't require you to camp them for 24 hours, logging in in the middle of the night to have a look. I consider solo taming a ZG Bat (for instance) to be much more respectable than having Broken Tooth. Unfortunately there's nothing separating my solo-tamed bat from the ones other people pick up on raids.

[Doctor Hillbilly]

Makes you wonder why MMO's don't release dev tools for user submitted dungeons and incorporate the best in an expansion release.

Saga of Ryzom has something like this:
http://www.ryzom.com/ryzom-ring


I've never played, so I don't know the details, but it looks intriguing.

[mouselock]

This is essentially what decursive does now. In order for it to know who to decurse it has to iterate through the entire raid and all debuffs. The debuff iteration will in the macro version be handled by the spell cast instead of the mod, but this shouldn't matter much.

No it won't. They changed macros so that if you have a multi ability macro:

/cast A
/cast B
/cast C

Any cast at the top of the heirarchy will exit the macro if it doesn't succeed and would have triggered a global cooldown.

Dumb macro fall-through logic (all of it!) is gone now.

[Mark Asher]

The thing about the special pets is they really weren’t so special. Everyone had Broken Tooth. Instead of adding variety with some pet flavor, it took it away because hunters all focused on the same few named pets – Broken Tooth, Ursius, etc.

Now you get pet families with unique abilities and you can further distinguish your pet through the training points. You get plenty of ways to make your pet unique. This change should mean we see more owls and other birds and fewer bats, more wolves and fewer Broken Tooths, etc.

[Erik Andersson]

You can macro something like Shift-A = cast Backstab() cast SinisterStrike() to backstab when possible, but if it fails cast sinister strike.
You can't do that for rows and rows of decurse targets because each check is server side (to see if your target is valid) and the macro exits immediately

Why would they do those checks server side? To me it sounds like you're just making stuff up for some reason.



Dumb macro fall-through logic (all of it!) is gone now.


Ouch! Didn't see that one in the restriction discussions, but it will obviously make the convenient version of my suggestion impossible. The inconvenient version of the macro would be a single target/decurse, so that you for example bind shift+25 different buttons to decurse the raid and then click like a madman...

[Shadari]

No it won't. They changed macros so that if you have a multi ability macro:

/cast A
/cast B
/cast C

Any cast at the top of the heirarchy will exit the macro if it doesn't succeed and would have triggered a global cooldown.

Dumb macro fall-through logic (all of it!) is gone now.
Damn, there goes my mage's anti-totem macro. Oh well, I hear Ice Lance is an instant-cast spell with no cooldown, so I guess I'll use that.

[mouselock]

The inconvenient version of the macro would be a single target/decurse, so that you for example bind shift+25 different buttons to decurse the raid and then click like a madman...

That's no more convenient than just doing it the "proper" way. Which is, of course, the point.

What you're going to see instead of all this is statically bound unit frames that take meta keys and mouse clicks to bind to an action. For example, I'll continue to cast spells manually as I've always done, but I'll either make or download a small grid (5x4x2 or 5x5 depending on raid size) that has CTRL + Left Click bound to decurse, and CTRL + Right Click bound to depoison. And there'll still be a difference between me and someone who doesn't have the mod. Except now I get to risk aggravating my CT that much more to make blizzard happy that I'm somehow "more involved" in the game. :/

[Gunmetal]

Why would they do those checks server side? To me it sounds like you're just making stuff up for some reason.
Try it out yourself then.
The client knows how much Energy you have. Since they changed Dispel/Cleanse/Tranq shot to not cast if there's nothing to remove (saving you mana), it checks to see if the target is still valid when you cast (since another player could have removed the debuff), which triggers the global cooldown even if the spell can't complete.

[Gunmetal]

Oops, I meant /cast Ripose /cast Sinister Strike

More discussion here:
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=9192&p=4

[Erik Andersson]

Strange decision on Blizzard's part, especially considering all the things that the client handles itself (movement in particular). It would save some computation server side to just let the client handle it, and it would produce the same result in most cases.

[Ranulf]

That's no more convenient than just doing it the "proper" way. Which is, of course, the point.

What you're going to see instead of all this is statically bound unit frames that take meta keys and mouse clicks to bind to an action. For example, I'll continue to cast spells manually as I've always done, but I'll either make or download a small grid (5x4x2 or 5x5 depending on raid size) that has CTRL + Left Click bound to decurse, and CTRL + Right Click bound to depoison. And there'll still be a difference between me and someone who doesn't have the mod. Except now I get to risk aggravating my CT that much more to make blizzard happy that I'm somehow "more involved" in the game. :/

Hush, you healbot and get back to staring at green bars and more interface clutter. No one gave you the right to speak. ;)

If you make or find a mod like that let me know, as that sounds like a reasonable solution to the death of decursive.

[mouselock]

Hush, you healbot and get back to staring at green bars and more interface clutter. No one gave you the right to speak. ;)


Heh.. I'm a lolferal actually. ;)



If you make or find a mod like that let me know, as that sounds like a reasonable solution to the death of decursive.

If I can't find one I will make it. I'm hoping, though, that Grid can be unobtrusively configured to do what I want; we'll see. The main problem I have with Grid is that it can't give me the info I'm going to need as a druid (and from my obviously biased perspective, I think druids are about as bad as it gets for necessary info):

In general, during any fight as a druid I need to know all of the following:

Whether my target is poisoned, cursed
Which of my HoT effects is up on the target (and come BC, how many - ugh!)
The target's health
The target's mana

That's simply too much info to all fit on Grid (or, really, any one specific set of unit frames if I have to actually interact with the unit frames). So I see no choice but to run with two sets of unit frames, one of which will be just for debuff management (and therefore at least able to be turned off on non-debuff fights).

[Erik Andersson]

Don't you think multiple grids will be easier to use anyway? Shouldn't be hard to make either, like one for debuffs, one for hots, and one for hp. For mana I expect healer/dps averages to be enough, or do you need it for some other reason?

[mouselock]

Don't you think multiple grids will be easier to use anyway? Shouldn't be hard to make either, like one for debuffs, one for hots, and one for hp. For mana I expect healer/dps averages to be enough, or do you need it for some other reason?

The more grids I have the easier it is to use them, but the harder it is to see past them. Realistically I've lived this long with 40 CTRaid frames on my screen giving me the HP/mana/hot info.. I'm hoping that single set of frames (or an equivalent) can be modified to also give me the number of HT info I need in order to use them for everything but debuffs. Debuffs will have to be split out because I don't want a multi-step approach to decursing/depoisoning involving targetting, bar swaps, and casting of the appropriate spell, and I don't want the targetting I do off my healing bars to have the possibility of accidentally blowing a global cooldown in a critical situation because my meta key was down and I cast abolish poison instead of picking up my target for that regrowth he desperately needed to stay alive.

As for mana, I'm a druid. I have innervate and I try to use it proactively. That means that I not only need to know the overall state of mana, but which of the healers individually has how much mana. I'm not going to bother innervating the priests I know will blow the additional mana stupidly, unless every other priest is fine. Conversely, if everyone's down on mana I want to be able to see which of the three or so good priests is farthest down (as well as making some value judgements on whether or not it's more important to hit the priest who tends to gear for spirit/int or the one who gears for +heal based on what their relative mana percentages are).

Like I said, I don't think any other healing class has to worry about all the stuff a druid does to be a good healer.

[Ranulf]

Heh.. I'm a lolferal actually. ;)





You poor bastard. :) I was thinking about going feral in the expansion for the grind to 70 and was going to test it out after I tried out balance in the beta but given the latest changes... (bye bye wep procs, potions/consumables in forms, barkskin timer increase etc.) I think my resto/raid spec healer days are indeed done and my druid is permanently retired. I just can't get motivated to log onto the beta to test it out.

[Sharpe]

Does anyone know when this patch will go live?

Also will honor you've earned in the week before the patch be of any use whatsoever?

[dannimal]

Isn't it usually 3-4 weeks after the test realms go up before the patch goes live? Also, isn't there usually a point when the test realms come down and before the patch goes up (like a week)?

[Michael Fortson]

Does anyone know when this patch will go live?

Also will honor you've earned in the week before the patch be of any use whatsoever?

I don't think the honor will, but the AV tokens, yeah. Save those.

[Michael Fortson]

Regarding decursive, I expect to have to fall back on some castparty-like solution. It's the sort of thing where available spell buttons are to the side of or below the party/raid member's bar. I used to use one (I think it was called Benecast) in my pre-raiding days... in any case, it'll be nice to have something not quite so easy to do anymore, frankly. I prefer a bit of a gap between good healers and those who barely manage to decurse with a 1-button solution. Here's to hoping that the brain-dead raid-wide emergency heal window gets hit next (if it hasn't already).

[Ranulf]

Regarding decursive, I expect to have to fall back on some castparty-like solution. It's the sort of thing where available spell buttons are to the side of or below the party/raid member's bar. I used to use one (I think it was called Benecast) in my pre-raiding days... in any case, it'll be nice to have something not quite so easy to do anymore, frankly. I prefer a bit of a gap between good healers and those who barely manage to decurse with a 1-button solution. Here's to hoping that the brain-dead raid-wide emergency heal window gets hit next (if it hasn't already).

Emer. Monitor is dead as well. Benecast is dead in the beta (and will be in live when 2.0 hits as well), don't know about cast-party (never liked its setup). Not sure if modders can get benecast to work (at least the button placement part, which is all I care about). Also, the rift between good healers and bad healers will widen and I know I won't care to heal as much now that I have to do more friggin UI work just to fucking decurse someone instead of a one button solution that lets me pay more attention to who needs heals and the actual fight.

[Michael Fortson]

I think the extra work is worth it if it lets you lose the hangers-on who wouldn't have been healing in the first place if they didn't have a brain-dead solution to get by on (and who do nothing but step on your heals in the first place because "emergency monitor told them to", efficiency and longevity be damned). I felt the same way about DAoC, when spread-heal dramatically lowered the bar. It's a crutch that, while useful for everyone, ends up making it really hard to excel in a relevant way by dumbing down the game and lowering the barrier to entry, and that's just not a worthwhile trade-off for me.

SWG fucked up crafting in the same way. It's not *supposed* to be equally easy for everyone regardless of what they put into it, and if it is, it's not a game I'm interested in anymore.

I'm really happy to see Blizzard going in the opposite direction. They're taking a stand for gamers who like roles to be challenging, and I think it's the right thing to do.

[Ranulf]

Honestly, to me it just leads to burn out. I got tired of fighting the interface. I rather enjoy healing in all its forms in WoW but damn if many times I'd rather be playing my hunter relaxed and watching more of the fight.

[Michael Fortson]

I seem to get a twisted pleasure out of seeing a paladin who never could heal within his assignment anyway quit or go LOLadin in frustration over things like this. It's like payback for alot of wasted mana :)

But there are definitely times when I just want to play my feral druid and leave the priest alone. I can relate, it's just a pain I'm willing to endure for what I consider the greater good.

[Mysterio]

"# Skill level now determines what items you can disenchant.

* Skill 1= Level 1-20

* Skill 25= Level 20-25

* Skill 50= Level 25-30

* Skill 75= Level 30-35

* Skill 100= Level 35-40

* Skill 125= Level 40-45

* Skill 150= Level 45-50

* Skill 175= Level 50-55

* Skill 200= Level 55-60

* Skill 225= Level 60-65"

Pwnage? No more disenchanting alts.

This change is LONG overdue. I've been playing WoW since Day 1, and have been lobbying for this type of change ever since the AH became flooded with enchanting mats.

[mouselock]

Are we really still harping on the entire "skill" thing. Aside from PvP, are people actually convinced that beyond a certain level of sufficiency there's really any room (or use) for differentiation more or less skill?

If you can run the 5-mans without multiple deaths, congrats, you have all the (individual) skill you need for the rest of the game. Past that it's all about whether or not the 39 other people (or 24 in the expansion) can hold up their end of the bargain as well. Everything else is e-peen measurement.

Personally, I don't get nearly enough out of measuring my e-peen to deal with the added frustration of 25-person additional whack-a-mole so that other folks' feelings that now they're actually accomplishing something can be bolstered.

I presume you play your feral druid as a healer, and aren't hypocritically mouthing off about the paladin who doesn't heal well enough while you spam maul and swipe or rake, shred, shred, rake, shred, rip, yes?

[Erik Andersson]

Are we really still harping on the entire "skill" thing. Aside from PvP, are people actually convinced that beyond a certain level of sufficiency there's really any room (or use) for differentiation more or less skill?

If you can run the 5-mans without multiple deaths, congrats, you have all the (individual) skill you need for the rest of the game. Past that it's all about whether or not the 39 other people (or 24 in the expansion) can hold up their end of the bargain as well. Everything else is e-peen measurement.

I used to think so too, but I'm not so sure I agree now. It depends a little on what you want to call "skill" too, but if you include knowledge of class mechanics and the ability to maximzie your potential there are considerable differences, and the ability to run 5-mans is not enough.

Yesterday we decided to let more casual raiders join us to Loatheb, and then we failed our first world buffed attempt at killing him, even though the class composition was good. The difference in damage output between people in similar gear can be considerable, some people simply did twice as much damage as others of the same class. In many cases such differences can be explained by the willingness (or not) to use mana pots and buffs, but not in the Loatheb case since you can't use mana pots and everybody is buffed.

The same raid could still kill Gothik in three tries, and Gothik is basically a much harder fight than Loatheb. Loatheb doesn't have much of a tactical component where as Gothik is all about crowd control of maybe ten mobs at the same in the end. This suggest that the casual raiders could follow instructions and remained focused (things you could pick up in 5-mans) but did not actually understand their class mechanics well enough. It's worth pointing out that "casual" in this context still means that they have more than 60 days /played of course...

[dannimal]

What's the min-level needed to get 225+ skill? 30?

How hard is it to power level someone to 30? Not very.

On top of that, anyone with multiple 60s can fairly easily drop/switch to enchanting and use that one as a DE-bot.

I like the change, and it'll stop the "make a gnome/dwarf and run them to IF and poof!" cheesefest (which I admit to having done. Although my current DE bot is a level 30 warlock now). But to think there's going to soon be a rise in the cost of DE mats is a bit excessive.

[Ranulf]

Lvl 20 or 25 IIRC for skill 225 enchanting. My 29 priest is maxed at 225. In the end, I may just make my 60 rogue an enchanter/herbie and dump engineering on my druid for alchemy. Probably would net me more on farming runs in the long run.

[dannimal]

From Blizzard's online guide:

"Apprentice requires level 5, Journeyman level 10, Expert level 20 and Artisan requires level 35."

So you can learn a profession at level 5, and go to 75. Then you need to get to lvl 10 to get to 150, 20 to get to 225, and 35 to get from 225-300.

So to DE anything, you need to be lvl 35 at least.

Again, no more lvl 5 set and forget DE bots, but I think that the folks putting the DE mats on the AH will either powerlevel DS-bots to 35, or just pick up Enchanting on a higher level toon to compensate. There'll be some period of time when mats get used to skill up to 225 (if a lvl 5 DE-bot had a skill of 50, or starting from 0 on a lvl 60), but after that it'll be back to "normal".

[Michael Fortson]

Are we really still harping on the entire "skill" thing. Aside from PvP, are people actually convinced that beyond a certain level of sufficiency there's really any room (or use) for differentiation more or less skill?

I play to PvP, but course there is, and that's ignoring the fact that the discussion above was really about people who should never have been considered as having sufficient skill to do the job they're trying to do, but the game masks the deficiencies enough that they "get by" while pissing off the people who have to play with them in the meantime.

Sorry you missed that.



Personally, I don't get nearly enough out of measuring my e-peen to deal with the added frustration of 25-person additional whack-a-mole so that other folks' feelings that now they're actually accomplishing something can be bolstered.

I think either you haven't played MMORPG's enough, or you've had a sheltered enough experience that you didn't run into level 60 tanks who need to have aggro management explained to them (because the game gave them a pass on really needing to know that to level, even as "the tank" in a 5-man), or be told about not letting adds run by untouched towards the healers, or how to assist in PvE and PvP. Or "healers" whose only interest is topping the healing charts, regardless of whether they are doing nothing but beating the assigned healer to a heal by .01 seconds and causing them to blow their mana. If the mechanics are dumbed down enough that dipshits can get through (by, say, clicking whatever name is at the top of emergency meter and spamming their fastest heal), they will get through, and they will have no appreciation for what they ought to be doing, regardless of what anyone says to them. Maybe you never have had to deal with any this. If so, consider yourself lucky.


I presume you play your feral druid as a healer, and aren't hypocritically mouthing off about the paladin who doesn't heal well enough while you spam maul and swipe or rake, shred, shred, rake, shred, rip, yes?
As I stated above, I play a priest for healing. I play the feral druid when I'm tired of it.

It's about playing a game without undue frustration. And since you didn't even try to understand the specific complaint about the paladin example, I think it's probably not worth talking about anymore.

[mouselock]

If the mechanics are dumbed down enough that dipshits can get through (by, say, clicking whatever name is at the top of emergency meter and spamming their fastest heal), they will get through, and they will have no appreciation for what they ought to be doing, regardless of what anyone says to them. Maybe you never have had to deal with any this. If so, consider yourself lucky.

Not a whole lot; I tend to get them naturally weeded out by not playing with people who don't like to play the way I do. (Which tends to be doing things that I find challenging.)

So basically you're arguing that they need to make the game more UI manipulative so that the folks who have no interest in playing the game in a manner that you find valuable will be forced to try to play it that way? Okay. Me, I'd rather just play the game the way I find fun, find others like myself to play with, and let other people play the way they want to. It doesn't really hurt me in any way if group A is getting through Raid X by using emergency monitor and decursive. Hell, it doesn't hurt me if there are some people in my raid doing so. As long as I have enough skillful players that can adapt to that type of play style, I'm golden.

The pie-in-the-sky assertion that if you remove people's ability to do things the "easy way" they'll all suddenly become much better players is so much bullshit. They will simply lower their inherent desires to match their play style (possibly while bitching about it the entire time). You can't force people to value maximal (or even improved) efficiency. If they wanted to be better tanks, or to do better DPS, or to heal more efficiently, they would have sought out ways to do that already. Some of us are wired to always wonder how we could do better, some aren't.

I just haven't seen much evidence of this mythical player that's so driven to succeed that changing how they can play the game is going to force them to acquire these "skills" you talk about, yet that same drive to succeed has never once left them in the position to want to get better naturally beyond what these addons allow.

I've seen a lot of people who can perform just fine if they're on, and simply use the addons so they don't have to be "on" every single time they do something though. Because that's a real easy way for them to burn out, really.




It's about playing a game without undue frustration. And since you didn't even try to understand the specific complaint about the paladin example, I think it's probably not worth talking about anymore.

UI changes aren't going to suddenly bring other folks up to the point where you're no longer frustrated with them because they don't meet your expectations. Either find people to work with who do meet your expectations, or realize that your expectations might not ought to be binding to every other player out there.

[Ranulf]

I've seen a lot of people who can perform just fine if they're on, and simply use the addons so they don't have to be "on" every single time they do something though. Because that's a real easy way for them to burn out, really.




Exactly. I have a lot of fun healing, enjoy the challenge but after awhile, with all the stress etc., having to fight the interface, effectively working harder and not smarter means I burn out that much faster. I'm having much more fun just killing shit solo or in 5mans or healing in 5 mans.

[Michael Fortson]

The pie-in-the-sky assertion that if you remove people's ability to do things the "easy way" they'll all suddenly become much better players is so much bullshit.

Why would you assume that that's what anyone thinks will happen? I certainly didn't say that. I don't care if they quit, or play another class that suits them more, or just go do things they can get by with playing their way.

My schedule and guild are such that I frequently play with different groups of people, and having to deal with people who shouldn't even be there is annoying. I want them skilled, or gone. Maybe that won't happen to the degree that I would like, but Blizzard is on the right track.

[mouselock]

Why would you assume that that's what anyone thinks will happen? I certainly didn't say that. I don't care if they quit, or play another class that suits them more, or just go do things they can get by with playing their way.

My schedule and guild are such that I frequently play with different groups of people, and having to deal with people who shouldn't even be there is annoying. I want them skilled, or gone. Maybe that won't happen to the degree that I would like, but Blizzard is on the right track.

Aright, I see where you're coming from. I personally am not happy to be made to suffer simply because you can't control who you play with, but I do see where you're coming from. Do you have any concerns that there will be enough people gone, rather than skilled, that it would affect your playing?

[Michael Fortson]

I don't think so. It's a pretty noisy, busy place still, and the changes are somewhat dramatic but not overly so... after all, people were playing before these mods existed, too.

I see your point, too about being forced to deal with one set of problems so that other people don't have to deal with different ones.

I have a long list of grievances with games lowering barriers, though. In DAoC, for example, Hiberna had a place that became the typical leveling area for players, and it relied on a broken game mechanic: BAF mobs should be randomly assigned who to target, so that the group has to deal with it, but it turned out that if you attack with a pet, they all would attack the pet, with none bothering with the group. Combine this with a broken buff system on pets (that rose their abilities far above normal if they were buffed using high-level player buffs) and a massive defensive damage shield that caused the attacking mobs to essentially kill themselves beating on the pet, and you had a recipe for unskilled players getting to the end-game in unusually large numbers.

The result? Level 50 tanks in PvP who had no idea how to avoid breaking mez (or why that matters), Bards who didn't know how to mez to begin with, healers who weren't used to having to heal more than one person, *nobody* knowing how to assist, etc -- it became really awful. In a PvP game, it affected the entire realm.

SWG used to have a fabulous, intensely competitive crafting system. Then they made a series of changes that effectively rendered every crafter's item identical to everyone else's in a very short period of time. Apparently somebody thought that crafting was "too hard", so they made it easier on everyone, and all the good people quit.

SWG also used to have a rich economy around resource harvesting, and genuine excitement around rare resource spawns, and then someone decided to award players a free schematic that awarded them any resource that had ever spawned on any planet, destroying the market and crippling a game mechanic all in one blow. Combined with ludicrously high quality resource spawns added to a new planet that every week obliterate the best quality resources ever seen in the game over the course of 2 years before then, and the bad situation became even worse.

These were all things that I was very heavily invested in... so I tend to be on the lookout for things I see as crutches that take the game out of the game to too big of a degree.

[mouselock]

These were all things that I was very heavily invested in... so I tend to be on the lookout for things I see as crutches that take the game out of the game to too big of a degree.

While I understand where you're coming from, I think that neither emergency monitors nor decursive are anything at all like the examples you've given. In the former case that could only be considered exploitative, while the latter is closer but has to do with undermining the entire underlying system. I don't think either emergency monitor (at least inasmuch as just displaying the X most wounded players and letting you target from there; I'm closer to agreeing for the auto spell selection bits) or decursive undermine the entire system. Hell, there's no "system" to undermine with decursive.

[Michael Fortson]

I use and like using emergency monitor (well not that exactly, but squeaky wheel, which is very handy in pvp). But I don't know how to reconcile that with arguing in groups about sticking to heal assignments, when the people I'm arguing with clearly have no idea why anyone would attempt to heal using anything other than emergency monitor. It's a bit of a conflict, and maybe this is just my easy way out. It might even be wishful thinking that it'll be the way out.

[Desslock]

I have a long list of grievances with games lowering barriers, though. In DAoC, for example, Hiberna had a place that became the typical leveling area for players, and it relied on a broken game mechanic: BAF mobs should be randomly assigned who to target, [snip] The result? Level 50 tanks in PvP who had no idea how to avoid breaking mez (or why that matters), Bards who didn't know how to mez to begin with, healers who weren't used to having to heal more than one person, *nobody* knowing how to assist, etc -- it became really awful. In a PvP game, it affected the entire realm.

SWG used to have a fabulous, intensely competitive crafting system. Then they made a series of changes that effectively rendered every crafter's item identical to everyone else's in a very short period of time. Apparently somebody thought that crafting was "too hard", so they made it easier on everyone, and all the good people quit.

SWG also used to have a rich economy around resource harvesting, and genuine excitement around rare resource spawns, and then someone decided to award players a free schematic that awarded them any resource that had ever spawned on any planet, destroying the market and crippling a game mechanic all in one blow. Combined with ludicrously high quality resource spawns added to a new planet that every week obliterate the best quality resources ever seen in the game over the course of 2 years before then, and the bad situation became even worse.

These were all things that I was very heavily invested in... so I tend to be on the lookout for things I see as crutches that take the game out of the game to too big of a degree.

That's a great analysis. Completely agree, particularly with the discussion on SWG.

The constant changes to that game were really maddening, particularly since they gradually betrayed the design of the game - ultimately, they should have just released the revised version as a sequel, it was so different from the game that subscribers enjoyed for years.