NWN2 - Game play / mechanics

[DeepT]

I want this thread to be strictly about game play and mechanics issues. Please, do not talk about the main campaign in any detail, no spoilers please.

Anyway, questions / observations after my first night playing:

My friend and I are going to do the campaign together. Well we sign up and register (I can't believe the amount of bullshit you need to go through to enable multi-player play) and my friend hosts a game.

I go to game-spy and try and join, and it keeps saying he is behind a firewall. He says he has all the ports open, and even puts himself in the DMZ. Still nothing works.

I notice *most* games list in game-spy have no ping times listed. I try and join about a dozen and all of them give me the fire wall error. He tries and join them, and gets the same result.

I then try and join the few games that do not have passwords and have ping times. Some of these I can join, others I can not.

Anyhow, I tell him to host again, and Ill try the 'direct connect' option, bypassing game-spy. I try and it instantly connects to his game server and we start to play.

Question 1 for developers: Why on God's green earth do you STILL use game spy? Can you name a SINGLE game ever made for game-spy that doesn't have hideous connection issues? I can't remember a single game that wasn't a huge pain in the ass for multi-player that uses game-spy. What do these people do to con you into using them? Do they offer you gold-plated Cadillacs or something? This service has seriously sucked from the beginning and IMHO will always suck.

So I go through character creation (it would be nice if you could do this without starting a new game). My own complaint, which is one that nearly every RPGish game has, is that you can't really make a red-head. I know, a trivial complaint, but I would like to point this out. I have certain characters I make for every RPG with certain looks. I have a monk named Zin, with fair skin and red hair. Not off color orange or brown, but RED. You can do blue, green, or purple hair, but you can't do red. What is the deal with that? Also, where did the flat-tops go? They were in the original NWN. Zin has a flat-top.

Anyway... I make my monk and I also make a sorcerer. I decide to use my sorcerer for multi-player.

Familiar time, what will it be? A pixie or a panther? Oh wait... they are non-combat, non utility pets. Why does a pig give me resistance being bluffed? Umm, I guess Ill go with a cat since none of the skill buffs have any use to me. Maybe Ill train some hide and sneaking at some point. I named him Tepid after the cat that killed mice in the tavern in the original Baldurs Gate. To bad there is only one cat model. Oh well.

I can see how the old pets were over-powered, I mean the pixie could unlock any door / chest and disarm traps. Who needed a thief if you had a pixie? The panther would pwn at low levels too and made a great distraction while you got a few spells off.

Question: Does anyone know if your familiars ever gain abilities when you level? When my sorcerer leveled, my kitty despawned. I assumed that when I summoned him again he would be improved in some way, but I could not see any differences.

Anyway, the tutorial starts and my frame-rate is horrible. I turn off shadows which improves things decently. However, once I go outside, it gets unplayable bad. I turned off water reflections and refractions which dramatically improved my framerate. However, adjusting or turning off the anisotropic filtering for textures made zero impact on my frame-rate. It is kind of amusing to see the world drawn with no texture filtering. It reminded me of what games looked like before there were 3D cards. I ended up having to lower my resolution down quite a bit to get a playable framerate.

Ok, so I am in the world with Tepid my cat. My friend is running around in the tutorial area. I have no idea where he is. The camera control is sluggish and hard to manage. I do not remember having this much difficulty in NWN.

I found that the middle mouse button allows me to rotate the camera. To bad it is wildly spastic when you use it. It is hard to rotate the camera a little bit. I would like the devs to work on this and see if they can make it less sensitive so it doesn't go nuts when you try and pan around a bit.

Another annoying issue was that whenever you 'zoned' the camera angle was reset and the quick casting panel would go away. This is very annoying. When you zone into a building I have a nice view of the back wall of the room and I have to manually rotate the camera up every time so I can see into the room.

I have some feature requests in this regard:
1. Can you make interior walls that are between the camera and players become invisible?

2. When you zone, keep the old camera angle or use a default that is appropriate for the area you zone in to.

3. When you zone, please keep the UI panels that were open before zoning open after you zone.


Ok, back the the game world. So my friend is running around and I can't find him easily. Clicking on the mini-map doesn't allow you to move the camera to that location. Can you make it so that clicking on the mini-map does do that and/or will tell your characters to walk to the location on the mini-map?

Clicking on distant characters doesn't allow you to control them or jump to their location. Tepid got lost and I could not click on his icon to select him. I had to walk around until I could select him. I also could not click on an NPC following my friend to locate him.

Finally, there is a big feature missing from NWN2. What happened to the context menus? You know, when you could right click on a person / item and then choose a bunch of actions like pick-pocket, follow, attack, cast a spell, etc... Please bring these back. Currently I do not know how to attack anything unless the default action is attack.

For example, I see Tepid has an attack. I decided to see if he could attack a chicken. I could only get info chickens and saw no way to initiate hostilities. I then tried it with my main character and once again could not see a way to attack chickens. I tried this wither other objects / animals and found no way to initiate hostilities.

Anyway, those are my comments / impressions from my first night of NWN2.

[Matt Perkins]

Question: Does anyone know if your familiars ever gain abilities when you level? When my sorcerer leveled, my kitty despawned. I assumed that when I summoned him again he would be improved in some way, but I could not see any differences.
If it follows normal D20 rules, it's every few levels that your pet improves, not every level.

[Marcus]

Finally, there is a big feature missing from NWN2. What happened to the context menus? You know, when you could right click on a person / item and then choose a bunch of actions like pick-pocket, follow, attack, cast a spell, etc... Please bring these back. Currently I do not know how to attack anything unless the default action is attack.

They are still there. Just hold right click over the person / thing.

[Skipper]

I thought it was Xfire not Gamespy. No matter, if it bugs you enough and you just want to play with your one friend located somehwere else, look into Hamachi or something similar (Dwango too if it's still around.)

It'll let you create a VPN between you and he that ANY game will work over.

[DeepT]

I think a VPN is overkill. Anyway we could play with direct connect methods, just not going through gamespy.

Anyway, those context menus are there? I did try and right-click and never got any, although I may not have done a right click and hold.

[DeepT]

If it follows normal D20 rules, it's every few levels that your pet improves, not every level.

So what kind of improvements can I expect? I mean I can't think of any useful improvements for Mr. Kitty unless he gains skills like lock-picking and trap disarming, which is not something I envision a house-cat learning to do even in a fantasy game.

Right now he is like one of those WoW pets that are just an asthetic and do not actually do anything in game.

[RepoMan]

They buff you, man. Bat gives +3 to your Listen, that kind of thing. Beetle gives +1 HP per level, my sorcerer LOVES his beetle, very David Cronenberg. Also they can deliver touch spells. (Apparently.)

Also, last night the second time I ran it (after quitting out briefly), it was having terrible lag problems -- it would run fine for a few seconds, then FREEZE for a few seconds, then run a few more, etc., freezing literally once a minute or so. W. T. F?????? (I stopped playing after that... hope it's better tonight for my first real serious sit-down with it....)

Double edit: If you have an item that boosts one of your stats, and you level up, do you get skill points / hit points / etc. based on your boosted stat or on your non-boosted stat? I can only assume the latter... true?

[roguefrog]

Base stats, so non-boosted.

So if there is a feat that requires 13 intelligence and your character has 10 intelligence but is boosted to 13 via items/spell, the feat won't be available on level up.

[charmtrap]

They are still there. Just hold right click over the person / thing.

Are you sure? I wasn't getting any context menus either and kind of wondered what happened to them.

[The Bitter Cynic]

Hmm, anyone else getting a 2D graphic not found kinda thing?

Game still runs, but during load screens i get a 4 color screen saying the 2D grapic isnt found.

[flyinj]

Are you sure? I wasn't getting any context menus either and kind of wondered what happened to them.

You have to hold the right button down for a bit to get it to show up. That, or shift-right-click to get it instantly.

[Matt Perkins]

So what kind of improvements can I expect? I mean I can't think of any useful improvements for Mr. Kitty unless he gains skills like lock-picking and trap disarming, which is not something I envision a house-cat learning to do even in a fantasy game.

Right now he is like one of those WoW pets that are just an asthetic and do not actually do anything in game.
He'll never be a power house like a Druid (or a Ranger pet to some extent), but he'll gain powers over time. Check out this page, if they are following the d20 rules, it will help you out (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm). About half way down there is a table describing the familiar abilities.

That's a great site in general for most D&D questions.

[Desslock]

The big "ability" of mage familiars is the ability to deliver their masters' touch spells, without putting the masters within melee range. They can also be used as pretty decent scouts, and they grant ability bonuses to the master when summoned.

You can also completely control them, unlike Druid/Ranger companions.

[caesarbear]

You have to hold the right button down for a bit to get it to show up. That, or shift-right-click to get it instantly.
Also, the default delay for context menus is long. Change it in the options. I like mine around .20.

[DeepT]

The big "ability" of mage familiars is the ability to deliver their masters' touch spells, without putting the masters within melee range. They can also be used as pretty decent scouts, and they grant ability bonuses to the master when summoned.

You can also completely control them, unlike Druid/Ranger companions.

Huh? Master's touch spells? Where is this in the NWN2 documentation? How do you coordinate that, so a touch spell is delivered via a famillair? Right now, my kitty has 12 hp, up from 4hp. He is a bit more stealthy now, but other then that his utility has not increased.

Now if I could channel any spell through him, like a fireball, that could come in useful.


Ahh, I was reading that the famillair can use skill's it master has. So if I trained remove traps, and open locks, my famillair could then do this for me? I wonder if I could take one level of rogue and buy up a bunch of disarm traps / pick locks skills.

[Sam Jones]

Okay, how do I choose a sub-race in character creation? The manual says:

For example, if you select the Planetouched race you will be prompted to select between the aasimar and tiefling sub-races.

Except, when I click Planetouched, nothing else happens, no prompting, no additional choices. It just chooses Aasimar as default. Same for all the other main races. If I choose Elf, it defaults to Moon Elf, etc.

Am I doing something wrong? I have installed the 1.01 patch.

[Becoming]

Really? It gave me a choice when I was browsing through those screens making my first character.

[Sam Jones]

Okay, scratch that. You get to choose a sub-race after hitting "next". I'VE BEEN A BLOODY FOOL.

[RepoMan]

The big "ability" of mage familiars is the ability to deliver their masters' touch spells, without putting the masters within melee range.
OK, so *how* exactly do you do this? I couldn't work out from the interface how to get my sorcerer's beetle to shock the hell out of somebody with Shocking Grasp. Do you select the beetle, then right-click on the enemy you want the familiar to zap? Or what? The manual doesn't really say what to do.

Edit: Looks like I'm not the only one confused, that's a relief :-) And DeepT, I'm basically going to do that with my Sorcerer, only it's going to be Diplomacy and Intimidate that I'm looking to buy up (since they're CHA-based and my sorcerer has max CHA). I got a human sorcerer with Able Learner, since that seems to be the only good way to swing it -- only humans let you have big sorcerer multi-class level mismatch without XP penalties....

Double edit: Hmm, official D20 rules say this:
Deliver Touch Spells (Su)

If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the "toucher." The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master could. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.
Guess I'll try that next time. AAARGH SOOOO HARD TO CONCENTRATE ON WORK TODAY. MUST PLAY MORE. MUST GET HIGHER LEVEL. MUST FIND OUT WHETHER BEETLE HAS HIGHER DEX THAN MY CHARACTER....

[Kunikos]

Mage familiars are worthless unless they're demonic, supernatural, or another type of magically enhanced creature. Normal animals are so boring. I'll take an imp over a ferret anyday. :)

[charmtrap]

So, I picked up the strategy guide (why, I don't quite know) and in the back it has lists of all the "pre-sell" and limited edition extra items and I want. Anyone hear of a way to unlock these without buying another copy or going back in time and pre-ordering?

[DeepT]

I pre-orderd mine. I am not sure how you are supposed to unlock anything. I am not sure the skills thing transfers over to NWN2, I do not recall seeing that in the documentation, but that doens't mean its not there.

If I get a level as a rogue, does the 1st level of that class get the super 1st level bonuses of skillpoints or is that only for your overall level?

Do the plane-touched have multi-class restrictions? I was not able to find any mention of it, I assume it would be the same as a human.

[MikeJ]

If I get a level as a rogue, does the 1st level of that class get the super 1st level bonuses of skillpoints or is that only for your overall level?


You only get 4x skillpoints one the first level of a character. Someone who started off as a Rogue then took Fighter for the second level would have a lot more skillpoints than someone who took Fighter then Rogue for second level.

[olaf]

Okay, how do I choose a sub-race in character creation? The manual says:



Except, when I click Planetouched, nothing else happens, no prompting, no additional choices. It just chooses Aasimar as default. Same for all the other main races. If I choose Elf, it defaults to Moon Elf, etc.

Am I doing something wrong? I have installed the 1.01 patch.
Ha. This got me too. The way it presents the stats of one sub race only on the initial race selection screen lead me to believe I could change the subrace, somehow, from that screen.

So, I picked up the strategy guide (why, I don't quite know) and in the back it has lists of all the "pre-sell" and limited edition extra items and I want. Anyone hear of a way to unlock these without buying another copy or going back in time and pre-ordering?

The merchants friend thing, what you get from pre-ordering, is a 120K or so zip file that installs almost instantly and just gives a bonus feat to all of your main (player-created) characters. I pre-ordered (2 copies!) but I got screwed out of the code somehow but some dude on a message board emailed it to me. If you PM me with your email address I can send it to you later tonight when I get home. You also might be able to just google for it.

I am wondering if there is a similarly easy way to get the CE content, whatever that is. Blessed of Waukeen I think.

[unbongwah]

Do the plane-touched have multi-class restrictions?
Aasimar's favored class is paladin; Tiefling's is rogue.

Pssst! It's in the manual!

[Kevin Grey]

Aasimar's favored class is paladin; Tiefling's is rogue.

Pssst! It's in the manual!


What does favored class mean? I'm playing as an Aasimar Bard- have I somehow gimped myself?

[Kunikos]

Read the fine manual. It says favored classes do not incur experience penalties when multiclassed, neither do prestige classes. For example, you can be an Aasimar Paladin, and add a few levels of Cleric. As long as the other one is your favored class then you don't incur the penalty. You could add a level of a prestige class then and suffer no penalty either. However if you added a level of fighter then you would. My explanation kinda sucks, but the manual is pretty clear about it.

In your case you could add levels of Paladin or any prestige class without any problems.

I picked human as my race, they don't have to deal with it (and neither do Half-Elves).

[Kevin Grey]

Ah got it. I read the section of the manual on favored classes but I didn't get it at the time (multi-classing in general is confusing to me).

[Matt Perkins]

Are the favored class restrictions in on normal? I went thief/ranger with a moon elf last night without appearing to be slowed down in level gaining (leveled as fast as my compatriots).

[Thrag]

The more I play the more the interface and especially the AI make me want to beat my head against the wall. It's as if they went out of their way to make it useless and unintuitive.

I can see the design meeting gone awry.

"Hey, we can have behaviors like follow, guard, and stand ground."

"Great idea! And we can make it so seemingly at random the AI changes back to follow, and make sure there’s nothing on screen indicating which behavior mode they are in."

"Oh, I know, we can have options in the AI like "use items" that even when turned off makes the AI use potions in the middle of combat giving the enemy attacks of opportunity".

"Brilliant! Hey, how about instead of normal right click menus we put them on a delay, after all, interface standards just aren’t in the year. Got to keep the consumer on their toes, make them read the manual once in a while."

"Cool! Maybe we can work some sort of inconsistent targeting interface in so that people will keep firing off spells on the wrong target."

"Good ideas people, I also want the combat AI to have people decide at random to switch targets and run through a crowd of enemies to soak up some attacks of opportunity".

[Anaxagoras]

Are the favored class restrictions in on normal? I went thief/ranger with a moon elf last night without appearing to be slowed down in level gaining (leveled as fast as my compatriots).

The class restrictions are there on all difficulty levels, but you only get hit with the XP penalty if your two non-favored classes become more than 1 level apart. So for your elf, as long as you keep your thief & ranger levels within 1 of each other, you're good.

Also, you never get hit with an XP penalty for a prestige class... they simply don't count.

[Matt Perkins]

Uh bluh dur... I completely and totally forgot the close together part of the classes... ugh. Someone remind I've played D&D for like 10 years now. :P

[shift6]

Huh? Master's touch spells? Where is this in the NWN2 documentation? How do you coordinate that, so a touch spell is delivered via a famillair?
I don't have NWN2 so I don't know the mouseclicks to do it, but 3.5 says a caster can cast a "touch" ranged spell into his familiar who more or less runs off and touches a target with it. It's kind of like hitting someone on the shoulder and saying "pass it on".

[flyinj]

Does anyone notice how the lighting changes every time you pick a different character? Does this have something to do with them having better nightvision or something?

For instance, on the druid and dwarf, things are a bit darker. When I select my human and thief, the lighing looks like torchlight. I thought it may have had something to do with unchecking that "all character lights on at once" option, but turning it off and on doesn't seem to do anything.

[Mehrunes]

Does anyone notice how the lighting changes every time you pick a different character? Does this have something to do with them having better nightvision or something?

For instance, on the druid and dwarf, things are a bit darker. When I select my human and thief, the lighing looks like torchlight. I thought it may have had something to do with unchecking that "all character lights on at once" option, but turning it off and on doesn't seem to do anything.

You hit the nail on the head, you only see lights from your currently possesed character with that option off. Keep in mind that alot of items besides torches act as light sources, i.e. rings, amulets etc. It's listed in the item's discription.

[flyinj]

You hit the nail on the head, you only see lights from your currently possesed character with that option off. Keep in mind that alot of items besides torches act as light sources, i.e. rings, amulets etc. It's listed in the item's discription.

Really? What is the option "show lights from all characters" for then? I assume that means that all light sources would be on at all times... it doesn't seem to do anything, really...

[Desslock]

Huh? Master's touch spells? Where is this in the NWN2 documentation? How do you coordinate that, so a touch spell is delivered via a famillair? .....Now if I could channel any spell through him, like a fireball, that could come in useful.

You select the familiar as the character you're controlling, and cast the spell from it (quick cast menu is easiest)

You can't cast spells like Fireball - those are ranged spells -- only "touch" spells, like shocking grasp. The Familiar's quickcast menu will list them all for you.

That's right from the D&D rules.

[Desslock]

Does anyone notice how the lighting changes every time you pick a different character? Does this have something to do with them having better nightvision or something?.

Yes.,,,

[flyinj]

Wow, there is a major bug with the spell Web. I just saw it cast for the first time, and my framerate dropped to, I kid you not, 2 FPS. How could they not have noticed that?

[Desslock]

Wow, there is a major bug with the spell Web. I just saw it cast for the first time, and my framerate dropped to, I kid you not, 2 FPS. How could they not have noticed that?

It's just a huge system hog, especially with a lot of persistent spell effects around. That's probably just the first example you've seen of it. The system requirements are very real.

[flyinj]

It's just a huge system hog, especially with a lot of persistent spell effects around. That's probably just the first example you've seen of it. The system requirements are very real.

I've seen a lot of spells on the screen at once... I've been playing for about 6 hours now. Nothing has had such a dramatic effect as the web spell. There is definately something wrong with it. I'm assuming it has way too many transparencies on the object, causing the Zbuffer to freak out.

[Desslock]

I've seen a lot of spells on the screen at once... I've been playing for about 6 hours now. Nothing has had such a dramatic effect as the web spell. There is definately something wrong with it. I'm assuming it has way too many transparencies on the object, causing the Zbuffer to freak out.

Have you cast Grease or Stinking Cloud before? Because I think those are the other early level persistent area of effect spells. I found they all slowed my system to a crawl.

[flyinj]

Have you cast Grease or Stinking Cloud before? Because I think those are the other early level persistent area of effect spells. I found they all slowed my system to a crawl.

Ugh... no, I haven't. Is there any graphics setting you can tweak to reduce the performance hit?

[Desslock]

Ugh... no, I haven't. Is there any graphics setting you can tweak to reduce the performance hit?

The only significant changes I did for performance were to play on a resolution a notch lower than I normally prefer, and turned off shadows (since I don't think they add much visual fidelity in that game).

But the main practical solution is just to pause/issue commands frequently (and put companions in puppet mode, so they don't do stupid things on their own). Pretty much the same way I played BG2.

[hong]

Anyone know how an Nvidia 7600GT will handle this game? Not that it'll be out in Austria for another week and a half.

(Hi Desslock!)

[archi]

Anyone know how an Nvidia 7600GT will handle this game? Not that it'll be out in Austria for another week and a half.

(Hi Desslock!)

Works fine on my machine 7600GT, AMD 3200+, 1GB Memory.

Texture to high, shadows off, water refractions and water reflections off, light sources to min, all the anti strophic stuff to high, no bloom. 1280x1026 frame rate around the 20 mark usually higher sometimes lower - certainly very playable, but i'm hopeful they will improve the performance

Tals

p.s note their is an xfire issue which this thread resolves. http://www.xfire.com/xf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=95079

[Lunch of Kong]

NWN2 is the first game that I can't play at 1920x1200 and be satisfied with the performance. I play it windowed-mode 1024x768 instead.

[stusser]

Anyone have any suggestions for fixing the braindead AI? Seems like every fight I get into, my party members lag around behind. In wide open areas, usually 2-3 of them make it to the fight in time to get some hits in, but in dungeons more than not I'm on my own. It's pretty annoying. If I use "puppet mode", they won't cast spells or use combat abilities at all, so that's useless. Right?

They also use spells erratically; the sorcerer fireballs groups of, well, one monster and the druid never seems to heal on her own. I can deal with that, but when they just sit around 200 feet behind and don't fight at all it profoundly pisses me off. At least NWN1 had hotkeyable "follow me" and "attack now" buttons, in NWN2 I either control them myself or basically fight solo.

[Becoming]

I have to remind myself to turn puppet mode on tonight after my dumbass rogue rushed down a long corridor away from the entire party to engage a fucking skeleton by herself and tripped two traps along the way killing herself. So I had to kill all the enemies in the area so she could revive with no health and disarm the traps so the rest of the party could actually get down the hallway...Just awesome.

[flyinj]

Anyone have any suggestions for fixing the braindead AI? Seems like every fight I get into, my party members lag around behind. In wide open areas, usually 2-3 of them make it to the fight in time to get some hits in, but in dungeons more than not I'm on my own. It's pretty annoying. If I use "puppet mode", they won't cast spells or use combat abilities at all, so that's useless. Right?

They also use spells erratically; the sorcerer fireballs groups of, well, one monster and the druid never seems to heal on her own. I can deal with that, but when they just sit around 200 feet behind and don't fight at all it profoundly pisses me off. At least NWN1 had hotkeyable "follow me" and "attack now" buttons, in NWN2 I either control them myself or basically fight solo.

You really need to turn on puppet mode and give all of them orders individually, just like BG2. I'd suggest using the "free cam", and set the option "posess on click" on in the options. THat allows you to click on them in the 3D view to select them and give orders. Also, use the F1-F4 keys to do quick selects.

Another good thing is to right click, select "broadcast commands" then "attack nearest". This will make everyone attack the nearest target until it is dead.

Oh yes... use "space" to pause every time you want to give orders.

[stusser]

give all of them orders individually, just like BG2.
I just replayed BG2 two months ago and I assure you that I didn't give each party member individual orders in every fight. Most of the time autopause hit, I selected everybody, clicked on a monster to concentrate fire, and when it died autopause came back on and I repeated. I only gave individual orders in tough battles. Otherwise each fight would take forever. In other words, that's not a good solution.

All I want is for my entire party to participate in every fight without micromanagement. Is that so much to ask?

And as for "broadcast commands", if I have to pause, hold down right click, and select it every time, that sucks too. If I could hit "F7" to do it like NWN1, I could live with that.

[flyinj]

I just replayed BG2 two months ago and I assure you that I didn't give each party member individual orders in every fight. Most of the time autopause hit, I selected everybody, clicked on a monster to concentrate fire, and when it died autopause came back on and I repeated. I only gave individual orders in tough battles. Otherwise each fight would take forever. In other words, that's not a good solution.

All I want is for my entire party to participate in every fight without micromanagement. Is that so much to ask?

And as for "broadcast commands", if I have to pause, hold down right click, and select it every time, that sucks too. If I could hit "F7" to do it like NWN1, I could live with that.

Yeap, I totally agree with every point. The lack of "select all" sucks badly... as well as not being able to hotkey the broadcast commands. I didn't realize you had tried all of my suggestions.

[olaf]

Definitely need a select all and they definitely need to work on the AI. The options under the behavior tab get your hopes hope but most of them dont seem to be implemented or are extremely inconsistent.

And the camera still sucks, I dont seem to be getting more comfortable with it or to have found a scheme I like. I do more camera adjusting than anything else in the game.

[stusser]

I don't mind the camera, I just play like NWN1, top down all the way.

The total lack of polish is a real pisser, though. Broken AI, horrid performance, bugs in the critical path, shitty UI, NWN2 missed every mark.

[flyinj]

The interface is really driving me banannas. The lack of select all just sucks. I try to alleviate it by only keeping on combat AI, but my guys will suck down potions like nobody's buisness if I turn off puppet mode. Even though I tell them to not use items. Having to hold down thre right mouse, then click broadcast, then click follow to get all my guys to stop what they're doing and go to one point really really sucks too.

Also, is there a way to turn off the confirmation voices? If I hear another women squealing "I CAN DO THAT!!!" again I'm going to jump out of a window.

Another thing I'm noticing is that for some reason my party members are attacking eachother. It's really bizarre. They'll kill their targets, then run back and just start wailing on one member of the party. They don't have any spell influence things next to their portraits... and there isn't any magic going off. They just start attacking eachother. It's really odd.

Regardless of all this, I'm still really liking the game!

[Gendal]

Regardless of all this, I'm still really liking the game!

NWN2's problems are legion, but I can't stop playing either. Now I am running into progression problems with quest lines not firing unless the currently selected character is my main. I switch between them all the time so this has already bitten me on the ass twice.

I also hate being forced to include somebody in my party. I like my party as is, I don't want to be forced into carrying around a nancy pancy ranger or paladin.

[flyinj]

I also hate being forced to include somebody in my party. I like my party as is, I don't want to be forced into carrying around a nancy pancy ranger or paladin.

Hey! I *am* a Paladin!

[Gendal]

Hey! I *am* a Paladin!

And I am sure you are much more competent than the one forced on you.

[foogla]

And I am sure you are much more competent than the one forced on you.

What, they still pull that shit? Horrible.

[DeepT]

The UI is killing me. One annoying thing is that combat modes get turned off regularly and I can't figure out what is causing it. IE: My monk's flurry of blows mode is usually off even though I keep turning it on. On some transitions it stays on, and others it turns off.

On my sorceror: How in the hell do I unlearn spells? In the original NWN you could change them when you leveled, however in NWN2 they seem unchangable. I thought maybe they had to be odd levels or even levels, but after two levels I still can't unlear my level 1 summon animal spell.

Some other devations from 3.5 rules: Your famillairs do not share spells with you, and do not share skills. I got a pip of lockpicking and remove traps and my pet can't do any of that. I once again wonder what the point of a famillair is since it does nothing but give some skill points.

Oh, how do you counterspell? All I can find is a reference to a counterspell 'mode' you can go into from the combat modes menu, yet I do not have any kind of counterspell mode unless it is bundled with defensive casting mode. The defensive casting mode tool-tip says nothing about counterspells.

That druid who joins you, all she does is turn into an animal and attack. I can't figure out how to tell her to stay as a person and cast spells. People regularly die even though she is full up on healing spells. Even after a battle she wont heal anyone. She is a 'Tard.

[Dave V]

DeepT: With other spellcasting classes leftclicking on the spell icon erases it. Maybe it's the same with sorcerers?
About the druid and fighting mode: I'd say it has to do with how you've set up control of all your party members including your own character. Maybe your druid is set up to use her abilities on her own and thus she changes to an animal, and maybe you didn't choose to have her use her spells by her own.
IMHO you should put everyone on puppet mode and turn off all AI assistance, you really can't expect the AI to take the right decision at any situation.

[stusser]

You can unlearn spells. Actually, I think you can switch out one spell per level, and it seems arbitrary which level you can unlearn it from. The spell you switch out must be replaced, unfortunately, so I can't get the sorcerer to forget "resistance" so she won't cast it every single goddamn battle instead of fireball and haste. It does let you switch out the ridiculous touch range spells, though.

I hate the shapechanging too. Not solely because I'd rather have her casting, but also because she tends to change form to a little racoon creature that does 1d2-1 points of damage instead of a bear and then melee. To turn it off, deselect "use abilities" in the AI. Also you have to have her not memorize any of the stupid buffs or she'll cast "owls wisdom" on the entire party in sequence instead of ice storming the enemy. You can't do that for sorcerers and bards of course. And she won't heal on her own no matter what so don't even try. I've only seen her cast "cure minor wounds" (the cantrip) on her own. Stupid fucking AI.

[flyinj]

Seriously, the only way to effectively play this game is to turn off everything for your AI guys except attacking. You pretty much have to give orders to everyone while paused all the time. The AI is just way too stupid to be useful.

[stusser]

Thats not true at all. My sorc and druid do throw out fireballs and ice storms on their own, my bard sings and hastes occasionally, etc. The combat AI is really stupid, but it's better than nothing. It would be absolutely unusable in "hardcore" mode where AE spells hurt your party, though. Now the crappy following AI, where party members stray way behind and often don't even bother to join combat, THAT pisses me off... but we've gone over that already so nuff said.

If I had to direct each single move I would go crazy. The game is constant fighting.

[Ragnar Oppedal]

Even on puppet mode defensive casting mode gets turned off all the time, and doesn't always get turned on when I click it. It's incredibly frustrating, and I have no idea why I can't just make defensive casting mode stay on all the time. I basically hate combat in this game, it's so buggy and the AI is so utterly shit.

[Dave V]

About sorcerers and unlearning spells: I was completely off, I just found out as a sorcerer joined my party. Though I'm not sure I've understood what I need to do, it's only described on the class selection screen when you level up, the manual doesn't seem to explain it.
About combat, to each his own I suppose. I don't particularly like RTWP but I manage all right controlling everything. It really is the only way to go, just see it as though it's turn-based.

Throwing your first fireball on a group of enemies: priceless.

[flyinj]

It would be absolutely unusable in "hardcore" mode where AE spells hurt your party, though.

Oh. I didn't realize anyone wasn't playing hardcore.

[stusser]

You choose to believe that most people don't play on the default difficulty setting? How delightfully whimsical of you.

[McCrank]

Blade Golem = hardest fight ever ;)

[DeepT]

I am playing mostly with a friend, so we do not pause the game. It would be nice to have an auto-pause for each round so you can give actions.

Apparently you an unlearn sorc spells after they are 2 lower levels then your maximum casting level. I am not sure if it is every other level or every level. In any case, you can't unlearn level 8 and 9 spells, so choose wisely.

I still think the famillairs are worthless, although the +1hp one might be good. My kitty is pointless. Even if it could cast every spell I could, what would be the point?

The AI is an abomination except for melee fighters and ranged fighters. Even then the NPCs love to block doorways and shoot arrows at point-blank range while they are getting whaled on.

The targetting system is really awful too. I can't seem to target an enemy without attacking it unless I get lucky with the Tab key. Even then, if the enemy is stealthed, and you can see them, you can't tab target them.

The enemy AI aggro is totally bizzar too. They will run past characters that have attacked them and attack a character that has not initated combat yet. I think its just random who they pick as thier first targets.

[RepoMan]

Sorcs can unlearn only one spell every other level starting at level four, and can only unlearn spells two full levels below their top castable spell level. So you can't unlearn a level one spell until your sorc reaches level 6 (the first even level at which you can cast third level spells, e.g. two spell levels above the spell level you want to unlearn).

Touch spells are GREAT if you get your familiar to cast them, which you can do just by selecting the familiar and pulling up the quickcast menu -- your caster's touch spells will be available for the familiar to cast. It's like having one of those radio-controlled cars with a large taser attached to it. Maximized Shocking Grasp FTW!

I still can't bring myself to play on hardcore. The combination of the problematic UI and camera, combined with my sloppy tactics, make it just too tempting to pull out the point-blank combust spell. Sure, I could micro every battle to get it right, but fuck it, it feels too much like work and cheesing my way through is just too much fun.

[flyinj]

Are there any AoE spells that don't effect friendlies? Some of the spell descriptions seem to say "enemies whithin range", while others say "targets whithin range".

[Dave Markell]

I am playing mostly with a friend, so we do not pause the game. It would be nice to have an auto-pause for each round so you can give actions.

So true. I would give a lot for BG 1/2's customizable autopause system. Why it wasn't included as a gameplay option I have no idea.

[stusser]

Playing on the default difficulty setting is hardly cheating. And for targetting, I just hit tab to target the nearest enemy (remapped from \) followed by T to attack, works fine. No need to even pause.

[DeepT]

As I said, tab-targetting doesn't work on stealthed targets you can see.

Is there a way to change the default action from attacking to simply selecting?

I think ill make a NWN2 feature change wish-list. There are so many little changes that need to be done.

[Desslock]

On my sorceror: How in the hell do I unlearn spells? In the original NWN you could change them when you leveled, however in NWN2 they seem unchangable. I thought maybe they had to be odd levels or even levels, but after two levels I still can't unlear my level 1 summon animal spell..

You can swap out one spell every time you level - there may be a minimum level requirement though. Just double-click on a spell in your spell-book that you want to remove after you've picked your new spells.

Some other devations from 3.5 rules: Your famillairs do not share spells with you, and do not share skills. I once again wonder what the point of a famillair is since it does nothing but give some skill points.

Familars DO share spells with you - cast them by controlling the familiar, and pulling up his spellbook or quickcast menu. They can cast touch-spells for you, which is very useful for getting an extra attack in and not needing to put your mage in melee range.

That druid who joins you, all she does is turn into an animal and attack. I can't figure out how to tell her to stay as a person and cast spells.

Turn on puppet mode and have her do what you say. You'll save yourself a lot of grief by specifically giving your companions commands.

[DeepT]

As I had said, I am playing in multi-player with friends so pausing the game all the time isn't really realistic. Also it is hard to know when the next round is going to start so you can issue orders again.

Can you confirm or deny that counter-spelling is in the game, and if so, how do you do it?

[Desslock]

As I had said, I am playing in multi-player with friends so pausing the game all the time isn't really realistic.?

Yeah, that's the compromise with having party-based gameplay - it's harder to play multiplayer because unless you let one person largely control the action, it's difficult to effectively control the NPCs. I think it works best, as in BG2, with one person controlling all the NPCs, and the other human players having non-casting characters.

Can you conform or deny that counter-spelling is in the game, and if so, how do you do it?

The manual says it's in the game (p. 104), but there doesn't seem to be a mode bar option to access it. I thought I might have just missed it because I didn't choose a caster as my main character either time I played the game, but the manual implies that other characters can select it as well to increase effectiveness. Unsure if that's a mode bar bug or they deleted the feature.

[jeffd]

Question about the NPCs: Are they handled like KOTOR/KOTOR2 where I've got a bank of buddies kicking it somewhere and I can switch them out at will?

Or is it more like BG2 where if you have an NPC leave or turn down their invitation to join they basically just stay wherever they were originally.

[Doug Erickson]

The former.

[Kunikos]

There are also opportunities during the game when you are away from the place they are hanging around in to switch your characters, although they are pretty infrequent thus far in the game (namely once per picking up a new character when you already have 4 in your party and once whenever you talk to an NPC that is involved with a companion's special side quest).

[caesarbear]

Camera bound to right mouse button third party hak (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=508654&forum=109&sp=0), for those that care.

[algahar]

crappy AI really worrys me. npcs running around wild, getting themselves killed unneccessarily, doing the reverse of what they should be doing to help, all get really annoying and frustrating on an rpg game that is heavily combat oriented.

the only work around that i can think of is to go solo...

[NuclearWinter]

The manual says it's in the game (p. 104), but there doesn't seem to be a mode bar option to access it.

From the Last Minute Manual Updates section of the readme:

p.104: Counterspelling is not possible in NWN2.

[Rock8man]

Camera bound to right mouse button third party hak (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=508654&forum=109&sp=0), for those that care.


Interesting. At first I thought someone was adding a new interface tweak. But they're just mapping Mouse3 to Mouse2, and Mouse2 to Mouse4. Which seems unnecessary to me.

Of course the big revelation to me was the functionality of Mouse3. Wow! I didn't know you could look around like that! This is awesome! Thanks caesarbear. The game is much more playable for me now in Driver Cam.

Plus, I got curious, if they still wanted to have mouse 2 available as Mouse4, then what the heck did Mouse 2 do in the game besides deselect the current inventory item? So I started the game, and I discovered a whole new right click menu! Sweeeeeet! I'd tried right-clicking on people before, of course, but I'd never held it down long enough for that menu to appear!

And you can even talk to party members this way, like in Planescape! It's so cool! I wonder how many conversations I missed out on in the opening town with my two childhood friends.

[foogla]

The delay for right click is so retarded I thought people were joking. That's a worthwile mod right there.

[moss_icon]

you can change it yourself in the options.

[unbongwah]

The delay for right click is so retarded I thought people were joking.
Is there some reason for that? I.e., does a quick right-click do one thing, while right-click & hold does something else?

[jeffd]

Not that I can tell. It's just a shitty interface mechanism.

[jeffd]

Also why the shit can't they just do the standard control scheme. Left click selects, right click is conext sensitive (e.g. right click an enemy to attack, right click the world to move), give us click & drag selection, and if they want do the whole hold down right click for a menu.

[caesarbear]

A right click de-selects, which is important so you don't accidently cast on targets you don't want to. Holding right click (or shift+right click) brings up the context menu, where you can perform other actions like convo with party, examine, etc. The problem is that the default delay to bring up the context menu is a crazily long half second. Fortunately you can adjust this in the options menu.

[DeepT]

To bad you need to reset the option every time you restart the game.

[Raife]

Can you recover traps in NWN2? I liked to collect and use them in NWN, but it looks like with the crafting option in, they didn't make them recoverable.

That kind of sucks for my Rogue with both Disarm and Set, but not Craft. You do get the synergy bonus with Set, but in hindsight, I would have pumped another skill.

[Soldats]

You can definitely recover traps in NWN2. I've been having a certain companion recover practically every trap we've come across to sell them for some change.

[Raife]

How do you go about it?

[Soldats]

Hold down Shift and right-click the trap to get the recover option. Then pray you don't get a critical failure.

[Rock8man]

I'm playing a bard for the first time in a game like this, and I have to admit, it's a blast so far. These guys really are the jack of all trades. They can enhance party members, do well in fights, have rogue-like abilities, have great diplomatic skills, cast many useful spells, and probably a few other things I haven't discovered yet, since I'm only at the beginning of the game.

I have a question about musical instruments. I've found some instruments in the game. I started with a flute, does it matter at all if I equip the flute in my left hand instead of a shield? It doesn't seem to enhance my bardic music skills at all, I don't think. The only thing the musical instruments seem to be good for is when they have charges on them. They seem to be like wands, where they have a certain number of charges, but you can't use them from the inventory, you have to equip them first to use the charges.

So my question is: When these charges run out, is there a way to recharge an instrument? For that matter, is there a way of recharging wands? Will I meet priests or something later on who will charge instruments for a fee?

And if I want to sell an instrument, does it get a higher value if it has all its charges, versus if I've used it a couple of times first?

[caesarbear]

Gamespot has a good NWN2 guide (http://www.gamespot.com/features/6161016/index.html?tag=topslot;action;1) up. The beginning tips and character notes should be quite helpful to those unexperienced with NWN or D&D.

[DeepT]

Here is a newbie tip: Don't waste points in spellcraft because it is useless.

[olaf]

Here is a newbie tip: Don't waste points in spellcraft because it is useless.
Well its not completely useless. I like to see the names of the spells enemies cast and that is a spellcraft check. And every 5 ranks you have in it you get +1 to saves vs spells. But yeah, most characters (parties?) cant afford to sink points into a skill with so little utility. If counterspelling was in it would be more valuable.

I would also add that conversation skills (Intimidate, Bluff, Diplomacy) on any character but your main are worthless as the game changes to your main character no matter who you use to initiate conversation. In my experience this applies to the Appraise skill as well, but it may not or the Merchant's Friend feat may alter the results.

I also dont have much regard for the Parry skill/mode.

Finally, the manual says you get +1 to AC for every 5 ranks of Tumble but in the game its 10.

[Anaxagoras]

In my experience this applies to the Appraise skill as well, but it may not or the Merchant's Friend feat may alter the results.

I don't think this is true. I beefed up the tiefling rogue's appraise, and I started getting better deals.


I also dont have much regard for the Parry skill/mode.

Me neither. I haven't once needed to parry. With the somewhat crude UI of NWN2, micro-managing your characters is already kinda hard... and it's too much of a pain in the ass to actually try to throw parrying in there. I'd rather just have my character run.

[MikeJ]

Me neither. I haven't once needed to parry. With the somewhat crude UI of NWN2, micro-managing your characters is already kinda hard... and it's too much of a pain in the ass to actually try to throw parrying in there. I'd rather just have my character run.

It seems that if you built a character to parry, they could be pretty hard to touch in melee combat. There's a feat to give you a counter-attack on just an advantage of five on the roll, reduce the penalty on additional attacks, and lots of ways to boost the parry skill. I imagine a higher-level duelist (with the elaborate Parry feat, parry skill focus and the other parry feat) could get a counter-attack on almost every incoming strike.

Still, you'd have to keep switching in and out of parry mode depending on whether people are attacking you, which I agree would be a micromanagement pain. Especially with how the toggles are sort of hit-and-miss.

[Kevin Grey]

To bad you need to reset the option every time you restart the game.

Pretty sure that it doesn't reset for me. Isn't the default delay something like .55 seconds? I set my delay for .37 seconds and that's where it was when I booted it up last night.

[Kunikos]

Man. Right now I can't craft jack or squat, except for the +2 enchantment I put on a suit of Mithril Chainmail (<3).

[caesarbear]

Pretty sure that it doesn't reset for me. Isn't the default delay something like .55 seconds? I set my delay for .37 seconds and that's where it was when I booted it up last night.
There's some weird bug where random options continually get reset. For me it's show weapon trails, but right click delay is fine.

[foogla]

Able Learner is broken (as in "too good"). All skills become class skills? In every way? Sure, thanks. I thought Eldritch Knights were unbuildable, but now I have the feat for the occasion.

[unbongwah]

Able Learner is broken (as in "too good"). All skills become class skills? In every way?
Isn't it supposed to just make cross-class skills cost 1 skill point instead of 2, but everything else stays the same?

[Kunikos]

I keep confusing "weak" and "faint" essences when I look back and forth between my inventory and the crafting sheet that Roger posted in the other thread. I'm also realizing that giving "craft magic arms and armor" to Grobnar was a big mistake. I should have given it to Qara, but instead I gave her Craft Wonderous Item (of which I can't do any of the recipies).

[Kunikos]

Isn't it supposed to just make cross-class skills cost 1 skill point instead of 2, but everything else stays the same?

Yes, there is still non-class max limits.

[unbongwah]

Yes, there is still non-class max limits.
That's what I thought, but foogla made it sound like AL was broken and made cross-class skills into class skills.

[Skipper]

It's not broken at all. You can only take a non-class skill to 1/2 your current level. Able learner just allows you to do that more cheaply. So you can't master anything with it, but you can become "proficient."

[Malaak]

Able Learner is broken (as in "too good"). All skills become class skills? In every way? Sure, thanks. I thought Eldritch Knights were unbuildable, but now I have the feat for the occasion.

BTW, Eldritch Knight has the wrong prereqs listed in the manual. Ingame it says you only need Martial Weapon Proficiency and the ability to cast lvl 3 spells.

[stusser]

You can only take a non-class skill to 1/2 your current level. Able learner just allows you to do that more cheaply. So you can't master anything with it, but you can become "proficient."
How does my 2rog/6ftr/3 divine champion have a 11 skill in disable traps, then? Hmmmmmmmmmm?

Seems to me that if any of your classes have the skill, the cap is removed. So one level in rogue and you can master pretty much anything.

[Kunikos]

Well that's good to know, since I'm not too big of a fan of parry. My next character may be pretty interesting to plan out to exploit everything...

[Angie Gallant]

It seems that if you built a character to parry, they could be pretty hard to touch in melee combat. There's a feat to give you a counter-attack on just an advantage of five on the roll, reduce the penalty on additional attacks, and lots of ways to boost the parry skill. I imagine a higher-level duelist (with the elaborate Parry feat, parry skill focus and the other parry feat) could get a counter-attack on almost every incoming strike.

Still, you'd have to keep switching in and out of parry mode depending on whether people are attacking you, which I agree would be a micromanagement pain. Especially with how the toggles are sort of hit-and-miss.

You are correct about the high-level duelist. And the Taunt skill is how you keep people attacking you. She also gets sneak attacks since I went with a Rogue build, and her Flourish feat adds on more hurting.

She's actually a blast to play.

[Cosmic Hippo]

You are correct about the high-level duelist. And the Taunt skill is how you keep people attacking you. She also gets sneak attacks since I went with a Rogue build, and her Flourish feat adds on more hurting.

She's actually a blast to play.I'm really glad to hear that the duelist is well-done. That's probably one of my absolute favorite class builds for pretty much the same reasons. Overly fancy and complex attacks that are only practical in certain situations for the win! Gotta love the Zorro/Inigo Montoya vibe.

[unbongwah]

Seems to me that if any of your classes have the skill, the cap is removed. So one level in rogue and you can master pretty much anything.
I believe the max cap on skills is based on character level, not class level. Thus, as you say, if you choose a level of rogue, most of the skills become class skills for your character permanently. But when you level up, the cost of skills is based on whether it's a class or cross-class skill for that class; if you get Able Learner, all class and cross-class skills cost a point.

Does that make any sense? More to the point, is that right?

[stusser]

Yes, that sounds pretty accurate to me.

[RepoMan]

That's exactly what I'm doing with my sorcerer. Mega charisma, and I wanted to max out Diplomacy. So I took Able Learner and a level of Rogue (and a human, to avoid the multi-class split-level penalty). Gonna be one diplomatic mofo, that I am.

I wish I'd known that Taunt was for pulling people onto you... I would've avoided wasting points in it :-(

[Kunikos]

I never use taunt... maybe that's why parry seems like a waste to me.

[foogla]

How does my 2rog/6ftr/3 divine champion have a 11 skill in disable traps, then? Hmmmmmmmmmm?

Seems to me that if any of your classes have the skill, the cap is removed. So one level in rogue and you can master pretty much anything.

That's what I was talking about. I have one level Bard and boy is my Dragon Disciple going to be very different from my NMN1 one.

[Rock8man]

I really like the gradual ramping up of the difficulty in this game so far. Near the beginning of the game, my bard could handle pretty much anything thrown his way with the equipment I found.

Then fights started getting a little more interesting where having the party members I had really started to help.

And now that I've been in the city of Neverwinter for a bit, I'm finally running into battles where I can't just let the attack play out anymore. I can reload as many times as I want, I always die. So I have to pause and give orders, plan for attacks by casting defensive spells, placing my mage away from the action a bit so she doesn't get hurt, using bard spells like cloud of bewilderment to stun my enemies so that they're fodder for my mage's fireball and flame strike and combust. And I have to use the "Broadcast Command" option to tell my party to stand their ground, so that I can have the thief come in from the side or from behind for a back-stab.

This is good stuff. Very nice. But if the fights had been this hard from the beginning I would have been really turned off. So kudos on the gradual ramping up of the difficulty.

[Desslock]

This is good stuff. Very nice. But if the fights had been this hard from the beginning I would have been really turned off. So kudos on the gradual ramping up of the difficulty.

It continues to ramp up nicely. At least on the D&D rules setting (where you can't just cast fireballs and other area of effect spells on top of your party!), the battles eventually get BG2-hard. Lots of pausing/micromanaging in those battles or you'll get smoked (the frame rate really takes a hit in those complex battles too, which also makes it prudent to pause a lot)

[Angie Gallant]

There is no autosave during the transition of Chapter 2 and 3. And there is no party to save your ass at the beginning of chapter 3. I am not looking forward to replaying that 20 minute stretch of dialog.

[Rock8man]

I still don't fully understand when and why multi-classing is a good thing.

I'll give you two examples:

On another thread, it was suggested that a Cleric should get a level or two of fighter, so that they can have all the weapon proficiencies, and the extra feat fighters get at first level. That made sense, it can be done early, and it's relatively painless. In fact, you can create a cleric, then click on "Skip Tutorial" and then level up as a fighter once, and then level up as a cleric again. Painless when you do it at low level, because levelling up is fast and easy at the beginning, it doesn't take much experience.

But now, my Bard, when I started him, I chose mostly the "harper agent" template, thinking that sounded like an interesting prestige class.

Around level 4, I could have become a level 5 bard, or a Level 1 Red Dragon. So I saved the game and went for it. But a level 1 Red Dragon doesn't get much that's cool, and I still wouldn't level up again until I was the equivalent of level 7 bard. In other words, I just spent a level on not getting much in return except some hit points, and not getting as many skill points, and not getting new songs, not getting new spells, not getting any feats. So it sucked, and I rolled back to an earlier save and became a level 5 bard instead.

Now I'm at a fork in the road again. I'm a level 6 bard, and I could become a level 1 harper agent, or level 7 bard. With Level 1 harper agent, I again don't get much, but as a level 7 bard, I get a feat, and other things, it's so much better.

Compounding the problems is that I'm a Planetouched Aasimar, so a normal human at this point would be at level 8, not 7, so the experience it takes to get to the next level is really far away. So getting a level 1 Red Dragon, or level 1 Harper Agent is a REALLY tough pill to swallow when you have THAT FAR to go to level up again.

I guess I just don't see how Prestige classes in particular are more appealing than just getting stronger in your base class. Especially for Red Dragons and Harpers. Maybe other Prestige classes have more immediate or long term benefits down the road, but I don't see what is down the road for Red Dragons and Harpers that would be worth giving up better songs, spells, feats, skill points, and other stuff that I get from being a bard. Red Dragon at least seem to have long term benefits like turning half dragon if you can get to level 10, but until you get to higher levels, aren't you just screwing yourself over?

[Matt Perkins]

The trick to prestige classes is that you most often don't get the really good stuff until 3-5 levels in, sometimes not until 7-9 levels, depending how good it is.

Of course, that depends on the class. Some classes are designed to allow to have Paladin powers without the restraint of having LG or some are designed to merge different classes in a balanced way (Eldritch Knight) and others are just different ways to customize your character.

The customizing your character ones usually require you give parts of your current class and start getting parts of this new class. Trade offs and balance and all.

[foogla]

One Prestige Class for Bards that kicks ass from level 1 is Shadowdancer (you don't even need to take more than 1 Level in it). Takes some planning to get there though. :/

[unbongwah]

You really have to take a long-term view of the prestige classes (and multiclassing in general), in planning when and how to acquire them, and evaluating what their pros and cons are.

E.g., Bard / RDD vs pure Bard: you give up the bard's more powerful spells and songs in order to gain the RDD's raw stat boosts, breath weapon, and immunities at level 10. So naturally, you have to ask yourself if that fits into your idea of what your character is like and how you intend to play. RDD is a good way of turning a bard into a melee powerhouse; OTOH, +8 STR doesn't mean much if you're playing an archer.

Or take a straight cleric vs cleric / fighter: one level of fighter gains you three feats (martial weapons proficiency, tower shield proficiency, one bonus feat), but you give up one level's worth of spellcasts. Is that worth it to you?

Some classes are worth taking one or two levels in: e.g., fighter to gain bonus feats; rogue for beaucoup skill points, a little sneak attack damage, and to "unlock" most skills as class skills. Other classes only shine if you focus several levels on them (e.g., RDD). And others don't multiclass well at all, IMHO: e.g., monks get some of their best abilities at high levels, which you can only do if you don't multiclass.

Again, though, we're talking about specializing or customizing one's character with multiclassing. If you don't want to deal with it, just pick a class and stick with it.

[Dave Markell]

I still don't fully understand when and why multi-classing is a good thing.

Here's another classic example for you. If you plan to play a super-high charisma sorcerer, take 2 levels of paladin. That gives your sorcie access to the "Divine Grace" feat, which adds your charisma bonus to all saving throws. You can even add 2 levels of monk or rogue on top of two levels of paladin, since at second level both earn the "Evasion" feat. If you have "Evasion" and roll a successful save against an AOE spell, you take zero damage. The result is a spell-caster who is extremely hard to effect with any type of magic.

Admittedly, this will work better when expansions raise the level cap. In NWN 1, you could eventually create 40th level characters. Giving up 2 - 4 levels out of 40 to gain some very, very potent synergistic multiclass abilities is a viable strategy. I plan to make a variant on the above build for a second playthrough of NWN 2, except I'll use warlock instead of paladin (warlocks have an invocation that functions exactly like Divine Grace, plus some other neat options, and have no alignment restrictions). I expect I'll feel the loss of max-level spells during the end game, but when the cap goes up that character will be on his way to uber status.

[Lunch of Kong]

...sorcerer, take 2 levels of paladin.

IMHO, Now that divine grace is Pal2 rather than Pal1, I don't think it's worth the dip. Two caster levels is a huge loss for a sorcerer thats already gimped by being a spell level behind wizards.

But back when you could pick up divine grace at Pal1, it was worth the loss of the spell level.

Warlock1/SorcXX is the NWN2 equivalent (but not in pen & paper where that invocation only affects one type of save bonus). Warlocks do have alignment restrictions: any evil or chaotic.

[Dave Markell]

IMHO, Now that divine grace is Pal2 rather than Pal1, I don't think it's worth the dip. Two caster levels is a huge loss for a sorcerer thats already gimped by being a spell level behind wizards.

But back when you could pick up divine grace at Pal1, it was worth the loss of the spell level.

Warlock1/SorcXX is the NWN2 equivalent (but not in pen & paper where that invocation only affects one type of save bonus). Warlocks do have alignment restrictions: any evil or chaotic.

Yup, you're right about the alignment restrictions. I should have said they're less restrictive than palies, not that there are none. Still, I think 1-4 splashed levels isn't so bad for a sorcie, especially once the cap goes up. I'm planning on Rogue 2/Warlock 2/Sorcie 16--rogue for skills and evasion, warlock for the "dark one's own luck" and "leaps and bounds" invocations. I won't see 9th level spells until an expansion pack comes out, but I can live with that.

[Rock8man]

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

I had another gameplay question. On Darksteel bows there's a property called "Mighty +6". I have no idea what this does. The bow seems to do less damage and have a lower chance to hit compared to a shortbow +2, but I'm wondering what that "Mighty +" property is.

I've now run into Composite Shortbows and Longbows that also have the property "Mighty +3" or something like that. I've tried keeping an eye on all my stats when I equip it, but it doesn't seem to change anything.

EDIT: Thanks caesarbear. That explains why it causes no bonuses for Neeshka, since she doesn't have a strength bonus.

[caesarbear]

Mighty allows the bow weilder to add their Strength bonus to attack damage up to the rating of Mighty. So a character with 18 STR +4 bonus will deal 1d8+3 damage with a Longbow w/ Mighty +3.

[Lunch of Kong]

Grrr. Looks like if I ever want acid weapons I'm gonna have to make Qara take the CMAA feat. Acid weapons need Melf's acid arrow, which is a conjuration spell that Sand is prohibited from casting.

[RepoMan]

Wooooa maaaan, that Melf dude was triiiiiippy. Can you hit me up with that arrow again dude? I think I'm coming doooown already.

[Ragnar Oppedal]

Mighty allows the bow weilder to add their Strength bonus to attack damage up to the rating of Mighty. So a character with 18 STR +4 bonus will deal 1d8+3 damage with a Longbow w/ Mighty +3.
I also believe that a character with less strength than the mighty bonus will get a penalty on attack rolls.

[unbongwah]

One of my favorite tactics in NWN 1 was to use Knockdown on an opponent, then use a rogue to whale on his prone ass - sneak attacks galore! Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to work in NWN 2: Neeshka can't get SAs on prone enemies, even when it looks like she's flanking them. Ironically, when they get back up, she can SA them.

So my question is: was this a deliberate change to the rules; or some sort of bug / oversight?

[Yeah, I know, I should probably ask something like this over in the NWN 2 forums, but that place scares me.]

Also, in general, what're the best ways to get SAs with ranged weapons? When Neeshka uses a bow, I have a hard time figuring out when and why she gets a sneak attack.

[olaf]

I think its a bug.

[Kunikos]

Grrr. Looks like if I ever want acid weapons I'm gonna have to make Qara take the CMAA feat. Acid weapons need Melf's acid arrow, which is a conjuration spell that Sand is prohibited from casting.

That's why I gave CMAA feat to Grobnar, since he can cast any scroll. Give scribe scroll or craft wand feat to Qara, Sand, and yourself if you're a cleric.

I wish Shandra had been a Cleric. :(

[Matt Perkins]

Also, in general, what're the best ways to get SAs with ranged weapons? When Neeshka uses a bow, I have a hard time figuring out when and why she gets a sneak attack.
Assuming it's similar to d20 rules, Neeshka needs to be within 30 feet of them and then normal sneak attack rules are applied (flanking, surprise, etc).

[unbongwah]

Assuming it's similar to d20 rules, Neeshka needs to be within 30 feet of them and then normal sneak attack rules are applied (flanking, surprise, etc).
Great! Now all I need to do is break out a ruler and try to figure out how far away is 30 feet!

[Lunch of Kong]

how far away is 30 feet

I think 30 feet is the length of ten NPCs standing side-by-side.

[Rock8man]

30 Feet is very familiar to me, since I'm a bard, and all my inpirational songs work to within 30 feet.

Basically it's pretty close. Oh yeah, I forgot about Grobnar. Basically, as far away from Grobnar that you can go and still have his songs work on you, that's 30 feet.

[Matt Perkins]

Ya, I haven't made it past Act I yet, so I haven't started complaining...but know what I don't like about this game so far?

The combat engine. The whole damn thing. The rules light version is purely a hack and slash. It either forgets or forgoes a lot of the rules (i.e. - attacks of opportunity only go off sometimes) which basically lead to combat being similar to Diablo II if I just let everyone go at it. And if I switch it to full on ruleset, I have to turn of the AI for everyone because they are stupid and do turn based micromanagement on a system that definitely wasn't designed for it.

I find myself longing for the IWD2 system (not the timestop BG2 system though). Or the KOTOR 1/2 system.

I play on the action friendly setting (rules light) and cast some spells and beat anything I find, but I don't find it particularly interesting. The combat has fast become the boring part...and since the story is dragging on at this point, I don't know if I'm going to even keep playing. At this point, I'd give the game a C-, just because I've got a fair amount of hours out of it and the potential for more is definitely there (toolset).

I don't know... I'm going to keep trying, but right now, I'm pretty blah about the whole thing. Which is pretty disappointing. As a matter of fact, I'm feeling a LOT like I did with the first one. I loved it for the first 5 hours or so and then boringness of it all started to set in......


We shall see.

[unbongwah]

My basic problem with the interface is it feels like this weird kludge between NWN (which was geared towards single characters) and KOTOR (geared towards direct control of 3 characters on a console), when what it wants to be is next-gen BG2 (i.e., party-based D&D hackery). It's reminiscent of Dungeon Siege 2, actually, except that game seemed to have a better interface and smarter AI.

Fortunately, I'm still enjoying combat, but that's largely in spite of the cumbersome interface, not because of it.

[Rock8man]

I'm still in Act 1 as well, and I'm having the opposite experience so far.

I'm playing through both this and Final Fantasy XII. I think one of the reasons I'm enjoying NWN2 so much is because I'm enjoying the combat so much more than in the SquareEnix game.

There's basically two kinds of fights in both games:

Easy fights, and challenging fights.

For easy fights, I liked the gambit system a lot in FF XII, but now that I can't use magic users very well in that game using gambits, its a pain in the ass, and so the easy fights aren't as fun in FFXII anymore.

For easy fights in NWN2, the AI is more than competent enough, I never relinquish control of my main character, even if I get knocked out. My party members are a lot stronger than my own character, and they usually take care of most fights very competently. They cast the right spells, they kick a lot of ass, and I don't have any complaints about their AI.

For harder fights in FFXII, since gambits don't work well for magic users, and you have to do stuff manually, doing stuff manually in that game is a pain in the ass. You have to press Triangle to do certain things, Square to do other things, and Select to look at the map, and I still get those mixed up in the heat of battle. And giving orders through their laborious menu system is just a chore. So I don't like it because of the interface basically. Plus the harder fights tend to be either super easy if you do everything right, or just so hard that they're unwinnable.

In NWN2, the few hard fights I've come across I couldn't just leave it up to the AI, because the AI is not capable of tactical positioning. But unlike in FFXII, it's a piece of cake to rearrange and re-order party members using the mouse. You don't have to go into 3 or 4 layers of menus to order people to cast spells or use feats, you can just use them from the Quickspell menu, or from the Toolbar at the bottom of the screen. It's a much less laborious task to order people around manually in a hard fight in NWN2, and that's why its fun for me.

[caesarbear]

If NWN2 allowed better command stacking for your party, then it would be just about the right blend of action and micro-management.

[Rock8man]

If NWN2 allowed better command stacking for your party, then it would be just about the right blend of action and micro-management.

Very true. The KOTOR 1 and 2 system of being able to cue up commands was definitely one thing I can't figure out why they removed.

[Kunikos]

What are you smoking? You can queue up to 4 commands per character, in addition to the already executing current command...

[MikeJ]

Very true. The KOTOR 1 and 2 system of being able to cue up commands was definitely one thing I can't figure out why they removed.

Well, you can queue spells and special abilities/attacks. I guess you can't say something like "Hit this guy until he's dead, then this guy..." or say "Hit this guy then move back a bit". Actually I found KOTOR a bit more annoying because sometimes I wanted to do a flurry and sometimes a critical and I had to order 3 or 4 of them in a row.

[Rock8man]

Wait, so you can queue up spells and such? How do you do it? When I give commands, they almost always override previous commands, unless there's already a spell being cast when I give the next command. I must have missed a hotkey or something? I tried pressing Shift while giving commands, but that didn't seem to queue things up either. So how do you it?

[Lunch of Kong]

I HATE that my spellcasters never stay in Defensive Casting mode. Evar. Then when you give them the command to get back into Defensive Casting mode, they don't enter it until some random moment later.

I got so frustrated with it that I've stopped using it. Now I cast mirror image on all my mages and some kind of stonekind/damage reduction on the priests/druids just so they can cast in combat without failing their concentration checks.

[Mehrunes]

I've only noticed move commands overriding previous ones. There's nothing special you have to do to queue up spells and such.

[MikeJ]

A typical buff sequence I just fly through them. You, you and you get Bull's Strength, you and you get Bear's, then mirror image and stoneskin (or Premonition) on the caster. Another popular one is queue up spell breach then disintegrate or finger of death on a couple of targets. (Edit: don't cast those on your companions....)

[olaf]

The defensive casting not staying up has got to be a bug with the behavior tabs, at least I hope so. They seem to cancel most modes you set manually, regardless of the tab setting, except search mode.

I think the combat is cool but the horrible AI, the real time and the lack of autopause features (and a select all...) conspire to make it a lot more tedious than it needs to be.

[Piemax2]

My personal list of desired interface and AI improvements

1) hot keys for the broadcast demands "stand your ground" and 'follow me"

2) AI settings like "focus on heals and buffs" or "focus on nukes" (didn't KotR2 have something like that, or am I thinking of some other game?)

3) seperate, transparent combat windows for each character.

4) Dominions3-like AI settings: "when you get into battle target closest/farhest/mages and cast the followng 3 spells..."

[unbongwah]

They seem to cancel most modes you set manually, regardless of the tab setting, except search mode.
It seems to exit the various combat modes (i.e., defensive casting, power attack, etc.) automatically after it thinks you're out of combat; that was certainly how NWN 1 handled it. Unfortunately, NWN 2 usually cancels these modes prematurely. [Whereas search and stealth mode get cancelled when you attack or cast a spell.]

[olaf]

Having to tell each party member, more than once a fight, Flurry of Blows on, Defensive Casting on, etc. is completely retarded (especially when they dont go into effect instantly) and its one of those things that I wonder how gets past testers and into a retail release. There are 100s of fights in the course of a game, how could you possibly not notice that or not be irritated having to do set modes so often?

[worm]

Aside from the AI/control quirks, which I'm sure are numerous.

Does anyone have an idea why it only autosaves on major zone entrances? This seems completely moronic considering as how you'll stay in one zone do many quests, and suddenly be overwhelmed because the gang is breaking out the fucking shocktrooper cyborg "Thug".

Also, I'd really just like to respec my god damn guy, I dicked around on my feats and fucked up.

[Thrag]

I don't know why it doesn't autosave on every transition. That would be better and more intuitive. F12 is quicksave (just in case people didn't know that, I didn't realize it until I finally looked at the manual after several days of play).

The one thing I really don’t get is why in this day and age games are still made with a single autosave or quicksave slot instead of multiple rotating slots.

[worm]

You can get a kind of respec by using the console, there's a feat list up on gamefaqs and you just do removefeat or addfeat from the console, the other crap is up on gamefaqs too.

What's really pissing me off is that I'm in a mansion that's just a fucking dungeon that goes up. It's just full of fucking stealthed mages and rogues and it's horrible and it's fucking boring and if I see something like it one more time the entire thing is getting sent back.

All that happens is I get my fucking ass kicked and I reload and reload and reload. So, as I don't want to scan the entire thread. Am I better off just playing a dumb as dirt half orc Barbarian? My bard was a bard longer than I had hoped, but I'm really running into way more resistance than is fair or resonable. Is this stuff scaled? Do I need to run off and go level up, do I just need to reload and reload until I luck out against the rooms packed full of theives hiding in the shadows? Can someone explain how this part of the game is supposed to play? Am I missing some switch?

[Thrag]

You can get a kind of respec by using the console, there's a feat list up on gamefaqs and you just do removefeat or addfeat from the console, the other crap is up on gamefaqs too.

What's really pissing me off is that I'm in a mansion that's just a fucking dungeon that goes up. It's just full of fucking stealthed mages and rogues and it's horrible and it's fucking boring and if I see something like it one more time the entire thing is getting sent back.

All that happens is I get my fucking ass kicked and I reload and reload and reload. So, as I don't want to scan the entire thread. Am I better off just playing a dumb as dirt half orc Barbarian? My bard was a bard longer than I had hoped, but I'm really running into way more resistance than is fair or resonable. Is this stuff scaled? Do I need to run off and go level up, do I just need to reload and reload until I luck out against the rooms packed full of theives hiding in the shadows? Can someone explain how this part of the game is supposed to play? Am I missing some switch?

Which mission are you on? There are actually a few like that.

What I did for those is have my guys assemble in a room with only one exit and then I send someone to get the attention of the enemy. I'll use the doorway as a choke point so that only one of them can melee you while two of your guys can melee them. Spellcasters you either need to silence or take out quickly.

I've got the mobility feat for Khelgar so sometimes I'll send him in to a group of enemies to take out the spell casters and then run back to my ambush room where I can take on the rest of the mob.

[MikeJ]

All that happens is I get my fucking ass kicked and I reload and reload and reload.

I found the sneak-attacking rogues and mages in that mansion a little annoying, but not especially dangerous. I played that map with Neeshka, Khelgar and Qara (my character is a Paladin). I would have Neeshka up front in stealth/search mode, to let me know when they were moving in. Qara was using Stoneskin and Mirror Image.

If Neeshka managed to spot a room full of assasins without being seen, I'd bring Qara up and send a fireball or two into the room (very non-flammable walls, I guess). More often they would just sort of pour out of the rooms. I would send myself and Khelgar to attack one, while Neeshka tried to get a sneak attack, and Qara would use Flame Arrow or Phantasmal Killer to thin their numbers. I'd guess Qara did about 60% of the damage, and wasn't too vulnerable, as the sneak attacks would usually hit one of the mirror images.

[Ryan A]

Some of the stuff that can annoying can be fun. Like how your party gets stuck in doorways since only one can fit through at a time... that's a great way to use Khelgar to block the doorway while your casters hang out behind him and wipe out anything his Great Cleave doesn't mow down.

Also, if you're playing a non-tank class, don't use your character to "lead" through battle-areas. Lead with a tank (Khelgar's the best for this) then pause the game to issue commands to each character when you make contact.

Alternately, scout with a rogue to spot traps, etc. and then book it back to the party with the rogue for some sweet ambush action.

Also: that mansion gave me trouble too since up until that point you don't really need to ever buff your party. By the time you're in the mansion, you should have some pretty nice buffs to hand out from Qara or Elanee... use them and watch the battles get easier. Much easier.

[caesarbear]

Some of the stuff that can annoying can be fun. Like how your party gets stuck in doorways since only one can fit through at a time... that's a great way to use Khelgar to block the doorway while your casters hang out behind him and wipe out anything his Great Cleave doesn't mow down.
Ah, doorway choking, what a classic tried and true cRPG tactic. Another is evasion running while the others fire ranged attacks.

[ydejin]

I don't know why it doesn't autosave on every transition.

Probably because for some of us it takes a long, long time to save. Is saving similar to area transitions? For people with 2Gigs of memory, apparently area transition so quickly that they can't read the Tip/Lore comments. For me with 1Gig, area transitions and saves seem like they take on the order of minutes, not seconds.

The last thing I want is every time I enter Sand's shop or the temples of Tyr or Lathander looking for health potions, I not only have to sit through a long, long transition, I also have to sit through a long game save.

[ydejin]

By the time you're in the mansion, you should have some pretty nice buffs to hand out from Qara or Elanee... use them and watch the battles get easier. Much easier.

Yeah, I was suprised to discover Mage Armor (+4 Armor Bonus lasting 1 hour/level which Qara knows and is available at level 1 to any wiz/sorc) can be cast on anyone. Also have Elanee throw on Barkskin (+2 Natural Armor Bonus extra +1 bonus for every three levels, lasting 10min/level). Mage Armor and Barkskin stack. If you don't have Elanee, have your tanks quaff Barkskin potions before entering major combat areas.

Once you get the Wizard, have him cast Stoneskin which gives damage resistance of 10 (all melee damage reduced by 10 points).

Using these techniques I have only died twice and I'm in middle to late Chapter 2. I also do not rest once I enter a combat area - although I do drink an awful lot of health potions. As Ryan says, definitely take advantage of buffing.

Edit: Also pay attention to who you concentrate on killing first. The enemy sorcerors seem to do serious damage using their lightning, so I always try to take them down first. Also they don't take much damage. Neeshka by mid-game may be able to take one of them down with a single swift sneak attack, before the rest of your group charges in.

[worm]

Probably because for some of us it takes a long, long time to save. Is saving similar to area transitions? For people with 2Gigs of memory, apparently area transition so quickly that they can't read the Tip/Lore comments. For me with 1Gig, area transitions and saves seem like they take on the order of minutes, not seconds.
I haven't been having any trouble with just a gig of ram. I can even ALT+TAB the thing to check messages boards for info.

[Thrag]

Probably because for some of us it takes a long, long time to save. Is saving similar to area transitions? For people with 2Gigs of memory, apparently area transition so quickly that they can't read the Tip/Lore comments. For me with 1Gig, area transitions and saves seem like they take on the order of minutes, not seconds.

The last thing I want is every time I enter Sand's shop or the temples of Tyr or Lathander looking for health potions, I not only have to sit through a long, long transition, I also have to sit through a long game save.

Those load times are because it is loading all the textures and whatnot for an area. Saves are very fast. Just do a quicksave and you can see how much time it takes.

[ydejin]

I haven't been having any trouble with just a gig of ram. I can even ALT+TAB the thing to check messages boards for info.

ALT+TAB = NWN Crash for me.

Those load times are because it is loading all the textures and whatnot for an area. Saves are very fast. Just do a quicksave and you can see how much time it takes.

Standard saves are dog slow for me. I've timed them at ~45 seconds. I haven't timed quick saves, but I haven't noticed them being particularly fast.

So if I switch to medium or low textures, will the modules load faster?

Edit: Switching to Low Textures may speed things slightly, but if it does, it's marginal. Still very slow for me. Alt-Tab even on Low Textures still crashes NWN2.

[DeepT]

Yeah the load times and load amounts for NWN2 are ridiculous. While each load doesn't take that long for me, maybe 10 to 20 seconds, the fact that if you transition anywhere you have to load.

Just going into an INN and back out again causes 2 loads. Very irritating.

[unbongwah]

. . . the fact that if you transition anywhere you have to load.
Which is how NWN 1 worked, too, it just loads quicker (these days).

I've got an A64 3000+ with a gig of RAM and I don't find the load times too bad: not so fast that I can't read the lore tips; but not so slow that I have time for a BRB. OTOH, I'm running NWN 2 off 2 x 36GB Raptors in RAID 0 - that probably helps a bit. :-)

[DeepT]

Are you sure? I do not remember any loading going from inside to the outside of a building.

As I said, the load times for me are not that bad. I have 2 gigs of ram, and a 4.2 gighz (I think, it could be 3.2ghz) hyper threaded cpu and a very fast HDD. It is the frequency of the loads that also causes such irritation. Maybe if leaving a building had a 1 second load time, it might not be bad, but 15 seconds in, and 15 seconds out... it really starts to get annoying.

Anyway, I do have question for anyone who has been making mods or has a deep understanding of the engine.

Can two players be in two different areas at the same time? If not, this is going to kill the large-scale PW NWN2 idea.

[worm]

I'm really leery of the influence system. I'm wondering how that's going to shake out in the long run, if fucking up a few dialog choices is going to prevent me from running everyone's "vision quest" on my super diplomatic character. I'd like my next play through to be a son of a bitch priest of Talos, and I don't want to have to miss out on character stuff with my diplomat.

[DeepT]

Yea, the influence system is dumb. I have hosed up my influence with Kelgar, I can't do his vision quest.

Mostly the screw-ups came by being honest and telling him what he needed to hear. So apparently what Obsidian thinks in this case is, the path to virtue by lying your ass off and being totally condescending.

[stusser]

Yes, the influence system is a good idea in theory, but it's difficult to play without "gaming" it. Khelgar likes to fight, so responses about randomly kicking some ass increase influence with him, even when such responses are more chaotic neutral or chaotic evil than chaotic good. This holds for all of the companions. Qara doesn't like rules and likes blowing stuff up, the druid likes nature and neutral good replies, the wizard just likes praise like a child, the ranger likes selfishness, etc.

[MikeJ]

Yea, the influence system is dumb. I have hosed up my influence with Kelgar, I can't do his vision quest.

Mostly the screw-ups came by being honest and telling him what he needed to hear. So apparently what Obsidian thinks in this case is, the path to virtue by lying your ass off and being totally condescending.

Are you sure you can't do his quest? Just because you can't do it *now* doesn't mean it can't be done. Have you been to the abandoned clanhold? There are lots of opportunities to gain influence with Khelgar there and at other points in the story. Just because you suffer the odd -1 for backing off from a fight doesn't mean you are locked out of his quest. I think that as long as you aren't a total jerk to him, you can get enough influence to complete his arc.

With Qara, on the other hand, you seem to suffer multiple serious losses of influence if you give her a piece of your mind. I've been totally sucking up to her as a result (and taking the odd chaotic hit), but many events along her storyline have already triggered and I've yet to see a chance to change her outlook. If I were RPing my paladin properly with respect to her, there's no way I'd still be adventuring with her.

[MikeJ]

Yes, the influence system is a good idea in theory, but it's difficult to play without "gaming" it.

I like when it puts you in a situation where two people are arguing and you have to take one side or the other. Even if you know which response will make each person happy, you can't make everyone happy. I'm probably going to have negative infinity influence with the warlock and the ranger due to this sort of thing.

[Matt Perkins]

What's really weird about the influence stuff is Obsidian did it so much better in KOTOR2. They got it right there. Here, you just have to tell them what they want to here, there, you got shape the kind of people they were, for better or worse.

[Gendal]

Mostly the screw-ups came by being honest and telling him what he needed to hear. So apparently what Obsidian thinks in this case is, the path to virtue by lying your ass off and being totally condescending.

It's influence points, not make them better people points. Tell them what they want to hear, not what you think they need to hear. Makes perfect sense to me, very few people want to hear what they need to, just what they want to.

[DeepT]

No, I can't do his quest now. After the dwarven clan quest I only had enough influence to get past the first influence test with him. There were several conversation options that docked me 2 or even 3 points with him.

I think telling him that the problems the clan had might not have happened if he had been there cost me 2 points. Then agreeing that it was his duty to help them cost me 3.

Ill second the comment on doing things to please Kelgar will move your alignment all over the place which is stupid. If there was any rule about influence, it should be any positive actions should either move you towards or not away from the NPCs alignment. There are definitely +Influence actions for Kelgar that make you evil.

Then again, Obsidian's views or morality are totally schizophrenic.

I really think the influence system is built backwards. If anything, it should be about you making your companions accept your world view. If you were Lawful good, gaining influence with bishop makes him less evil and less chaotic.

That would be much more interesting then sucking up to an NPC to help with their story quest. Good NPCs should be corrupted by evil, and evil NPC should be redeemed by good. Chaotic npcs should learn the value of discipline and order, while Lawful NPCs should learn the value of relaxing and having some fun once in a while.


Overall, this brings up a very big gripe I have with the D&D system. For the most part, class alignment restrictions are just stupid.

Why must paladins be lawful good? Why can't a neutral good or chaotic good god have holy warriors? In fact why aren't these holy warriors tied to the alignment of their god? It makes no sense, that Lethander, who is NG, to have a dedicated holy warrior that is LG. Why can't Cyric have paladins?

The whole emphasis on alignment also has a very skewed interpretation. Monks must be lawful. The common interpretation is that you are an obedient citizen who believes in the laws of the land. So a monk who breaks the law of the land is considered chaotic. If you lie, that is considered chaotic.

However, consider that what monks *really* are, is disciplined. They have a code of honor, and or various activities do on a rigid schedule. They do their exercises, the meditate, they train, etc. That is the 'law' part of their class. Maybe they see themselves above the local authorities and populace. Maybe when they fail to observe a local ordinance it is because they think it is beneath them. Perhaps when a local asks them a question they give a dishonest answer with the intention of telling someone what they need to hear, which may not be the truth.

Yet you are pigeon holed because Lawful mean X or Chaotic means Y.

You can still have alignments, but they should never restrict you from a class selection. If anything, they are there to help drive the story.

[ydejin]

I'm probably going to have negative infinity influence with the warlock and the ranger due to this sort of thing.

There's a warlock? When does this happen? I just picked up the cleric a short while back. Did I miss someone?

[DeepT]

It's influence points, not make them better people points. Tell them what they want to hear, not what you think they need to hear. Makes perfect sense to me, very few people want to hear what they need to, just what they want to.

I understand, but let me put it this way.

If the object of a conversation with an NPC is to make the a better person, then it makes no sense to either:

1. Reward the person's bad behavior in order to push them to the better behavior.

2. Punish the choices which lead to the better behavior by removing the ability to make those choices.

NWN2 does both of those things.

[MikeJ]

There's a warlock? When does this happen? I just picked up the cleric a short while back. Did I miss someone?

You mean you didn't do the Underdark quest chain in Waterdeep? Oh well. Too late now.

[worm]

It's influence points, not make them better people points. Tell them what they want to hear, not what you think they need to hear. Makes perfect sense to me, very few people want to hear what they need to, just what they want to.
You're telling me with 18 charisma, 14 intelligence, +12 to diplomacy and bluff, I should need to pander to a motherfucking dwarf to get him on the same page as me?

Really, it's just a sucking up system. It's got nothing to do with influencing people and everything with shilling to a bunch of NPCs in hopes of exploring as much content as you can. The solution? Use the console, that's what I'll end up doing.

[MikeJ]

No, I can't do his quest now. After the dwarven clan quest I only had enough influence to get past the first influence test with him. There were several conversation options that docked me 2 or even 3 points with him.

Well, I would still bet you will have enough influence eventually.

[RepoMan]

DeepT, I like the way you think, but face it, it's just not D&D. D&D is hardcoded to enforce static role-playing, in a sense. If you start out as lawful good and you become an uber paladin, you'd better damn well not change, because the minute the DM decides you're too chaotic or too neutral or too evil, you're completely hosed! What happens to all your hard-earned XP when suddenly you can't play your class because your alignment just shifted? The game doesn't really address that.

Basically, alignments are a fairly crappy way to try to get some role-playing structure into the game, and they work only if you don't think about them too much.

Seems to me like NWN2 is taking that whole perspective on alignments: people have alignments, they don't change, and if you want to get on well with them, you have to pander to their worldview. And you SIMPLY CAN'T do that in all cases without violating your own alignment.

In other words, alignments are fixed and the game is set up to prevent you from getting along well with everyone. Which is frustrating if you are either a powergamer who wants to see / do everything in one run-through, or a thoughtful roleplayer who wants a more dynamic personality system, or both. But it is, on its own terms, consistent.

[MikeJ]

Really, it's just a sucking up system. It's got nothing to do with influencing people and everything with shilling to a bunch of NPCs in hopes of exploring as much content as you can. The solution? Use the console, that's what I'll end up doing.

It would interesting if *loosing* influence would also open up quest possibilities. Like "bring me the head of that loose-cannon sorceror".

[worm]

It would interesting if *loosing* influence would also open up quest possibilities. Like "bring me the head of that loose-cannon sorceror".
Seeing the large amount of mods and modules that were made for NWN, makes me hopeful for someone to come along and produce a really sweet mod that utilizes the influence system properly.

[unbongwah]

Are you sure? I do not remember any loading going from inside to the outside of a building.
Quite sure: any time you transitioned from one area to the next - and yes, indoors and outdoors were usually separate areas - you got loading. It may have been very quick, especially compared to NWN 2, but it was definitely there.

Yes, the influence system is a good idea in theory, but it's difficult to play without "gaming" it.
Well, it's pretty obviously set up so you can't please all the people all the time: sometimes you have to decide between saying what you want to say (or consider "in character") and what you think they want to hear; and sometimes different party members want you to do different things. You have to make *gasp* choices with consequences! Heavens, no! :-)

What does irritate me about it is that you never know which characters are gonna have "influence moments" during which encounters. And since swapping characters is such a pain, testing conversations isn't practical for those of us who want to see all the possibilities.

I really think the influence system is built backwards. If anything, it should be about you making your companions accept your world view. If you were Lawful good, gaining influence with bishop makes him less evil and less chaotic.
The way it usually works seems to be: first you earn their trust and get them to like you; then you have some sway over changing their personality.

Think about it: if someone comes up to you out of the blue and starts lecturing you about what's wrong with your life, are you really gonna be receptive to that? Probably not. Or if you're forced to hang out with a co-worker you dislike, are you likely to emulate their behavior? Again: probably not. But if a good friend, who's stuck by you even when you've done some stupid shit, starts trying to change you, you're more apt to listen.

Khelgar's an obvious example: you bond with him over senseless violence; then you talk to him about what it means to be a monk. He starts out with some sense of duty and honor, but he's too self-absorbed to really understand; it's by your example that he learns to think about people other than himself and to fight for reasons other than bashing in the next set of heads.

Why must paladins be lawful good? Why can't a neutral good or chaotic good god have holy warriors?
That's what Divine Champions are for. :-)

Monks must be lawful. The common interpretation is that you are an obedient citizen who believes in the laws of the land. So a monk who breaks the law of the land is considered chaotic. If you lie, that is considered chaotic.
Actually, I thought the point of Lawful is you adhere to a strict code of conduct; what that code is determines if you're good, bad, or indifferent. Chaotic people, OTOH, do whatever they feel like, without regard for the law or social norms; and it's what they like which determines if they're good, bad, or indifferent.

I agree that the alignment and influence systems are a bit overly simplistic. I just think your examples are kinda weak.

Seems to me like NWN2 is taking that whole perspective on alignments: people have alignments, they don't change, and if you want to get on well with them, you have to pander to their worldview. And you SIMPLY CAN'T do that in all cases without violating your own alignment.
In which case, you accept that you two have "irreconcilable differences" and just don't get along...kinda like real life. :-)

Of all the complaints I've heard leveled against this game, "I can't get everybody to do and think what I want!" is one of the more interesting. What's the point of giving NPCs distinct personalities if you can just change them at whim?

[Matt Perkins]

Of all the complaints I've heard leveled against this game, "I can't get everybody to do and think what I want!" is one of the more interesting. What's the point of giving NPCs distinct personalities if you can just change them at whim?
I see your point AND, this is game where to see certain quests, parts of the game, you have to make nice with characters. But you can't do that unless you don't roleplay your own character. This was not the case in KOTOR2, the previous Obsidian game, or at least not the extent it is here. You literally have to choose to gimp influence with on character or another at multiple points in the game, hencing guarenteeing you'll never see their quests. That's...annoying. It's not a show stopper, but as a gamer who LOVES to do side quests, especially interesting ones, the developer is saying, well, you can't do these ones, so na na.

*shrugs*

[DeepT]

DeepT, I like the way you think, but face it, it's just not D&D. D&D is hardcoded to enforce static role-playing, in a sense. If you start out as lawful good and you become an uber paladin, you'd better damn well not change, because the minute the DM decides you're too chaotic or too neutral or too evil, you're completely hosed! What happens to all your hard-earned XP when suddenly you can't play your class because your alignment just shifted? The game doesn't really address that.

At this point, the player should have two choices. Either repent to his god and undergo some quest to shift his alignment back (actions speak louder then words) or find a new god.

From a player standpoint it would really mean finding a god who's ideals match your own. It would make min / maxing more difficult. On one hand, if you pick a god who's alignment is different then you, the player, then it should be a real challenge to RP that alignment. On the other hand, if you can't RP that alignment as a player, you should not pick that god.

In any case, I do not think any CRPG should do much, if any alignment tweaking in game. I could see exceptions when an action is overtly evil, for example. The problem now is that very subtle things shift your alignment and there isn't enough context to warrant any kind of alignment change.

If you are nice to someone, that doesn't make you good. If you kill someone that doesn't make you evil. Maybe all your benevolent actions are merely because you want to keep your 'tool' alive until the right time for their noble sacrifice arrives.

Remember in PS:T, when you were reliving the memories of the practical incarnation? He was being totally sweet to his 'love'. Anyone from the outside would look at that would think that the nameless one was truly a great guy and would make a great husband for that woman. Yet you hear the internal thoughts of the nameless one and know that he was playing her emotions like a musician plays a musical instrument. It was total, cold-hearted evil.

Now in a game like NWN2, when you save someone or kill someone, how can they assign an alignment adjustment to it? Why does telling an Orc NPC to take you to his leader peacefully or you will just end up going there leaving a trail of bodies behind make you evil?

With a human GM, you can get far more context for actions, but CRPGs are too black and white. They should not be making alignment adjustments so trivially.

[Mehrunes]

Yea, the influence system is dumb. I have hosed up my influence with Kelgar, I can't do his vision quest.

Mostly the screw-ups came by being honest and telling him what he needed to hear. So apparently what Obsidian thinks in this case is, the path to virtue by lying your ass off and being totally condescending.

1. DeepT you definitely need to learn how the world works. Telling someone who doesn't really know you well enough yet how everything they've done is wrong is not going to magically make them a better person. People usually have learn accept such things on their own, and there is often little more you can do than provide support and act as a role model.

2. DeepT, have you ever heard the expression that you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar? I understand where you're coming from, but dwarves are notoriously stubborn and maybe, just maybe, Khelgar isn't ready to confront the truthjust yet. Give him a little time and I'm sure he'll come around.

3. Are you finished whining yet? We have more important things to do and I could care less what you think.

[Soldats]

>>3.

Gained 3 influence with DeepT.

Updated my journal. (DeepT Whinge Quest)


I love the arguments that develop when you've got certain teammates together (Sand & Qara, Bishop & Casavir, Khelgar & Neeshka, etc). It's a really nice touch. Props to Obsidian.

[Ryan A]

I see your point AND, this is game where to see certain quests, parts of the game, you have to make nice with characters. But you can't do that unless you don't roleplay your own character. This was not the case in KOTOR2, the previous Obsidian game, or at least not the extent it is here. You literally have to choose to gimp influence with on character or another at multiple points in the game, hencing guarenteeing you'll never see their quests. That's...annoying. It's not a show stopper, but as a gamer who LOVES to do side quests, especially interesting ones, the developer is saying, well, you can't do these ones, so na na.

*shrugs*

See, the thing about the viewpoint you express here is, if you want to roleplay your character, roleplay them... don't worry about being a completionist. In fact, I believe compleitionism and roleplaying are mutually exclusive of one another.

If you want to actually roleplay your character, just do so, and then play again as a different type if you want to see other parts of the game (like working for the thieves instead of the watch, for example).

Mike's right about the Warlock. But just wait until you get to visit Sigil in order to add the Barbarian npc to your party!

[unbongwah]

You literally have to choose to gimp influence with on character or another at multiple points in the game, hencing guarenteeing you'll never see their quests.
Well, that's pretty much what I meant by "choices with consequences:" you take one path, closing off another; you choose to favor or flatter one NPC, another one dislikes you for the same behavior. You have to decide which NPCs you like best and/or are most compatible with and act accordingly; if need be, you play multiple times, taking a different tack each time.

What does suck is if you discover that you tried to please everyone and ended up displeasing all of them equally, so nobody opens up to you. Which is also instructive.

That's...annoying.
Yes, it is. So're real people. This is why I blanch whenever people talk about wanting games to be more realistic. :-)

"NWN 3: High School Counselor Edition"

<insert requisite "Kobayashi Maru" quote here>

In fact, I believe compleitionism and roleplaying are mutually exclusive of one another.
I wouldn't say that per se, but it's clear that Obsidian's trying to say, "You can't be all things to all people. You gotta make some choices and accept the consequences of those choices."

[Matt Perkins]

LOL, play the game again. You guys effing hilarious. I can't even decide if I'm going to finish Act I at this point, much less play again.


Back to the NPCs though... They aren't real people, they don't act like real people and they sound like real people (stupid voice acting) and I don't get options like I would with a real person (try to talk them out of things instead of options to say how they are doing on the things they are doing to do or have done).

Every single party NPC beyond the two tutorial NPCS are cantankerous peeps (though the dwarf is really just fight happy). They don't get along with anyone and the game purposely sets it up so you have to choose between them, not try to get along. This isn't like real life at all, unless everyone in real life are assholes (that's probably debatable).

It's silly that you can't find NPCs, at least so far, that get along, that you can work with instead of either having to stoop down to their level and agree or make the sensible choice and lose influence.

The influence system has been anything but fun, so far. They lost the fun they had in KOTOR2. IMHO.


That being said, this definitely isn't my game breaker. It's not driving me away from the game, I just wish it could have been more. That's all.

If we want to talk about what's driving me away from the game, we can get into that at a later point. This was definitely one of those first five hours are pretty cool then it all starts to build up and the game becomes unfun.... *shrugs*

[worm]

In which case, you accept that you two have "irreconcilable differences" and just don't get along...kinda like real life. :-)
Except that your main character is soon a schizo attempting to maximize influence. Look, it's not all bad. The one chaotic evil guy raises influence if you act smart, and you don't necessarily need to be evil. However, getting the fucking dwarf to drop influence because I click on the option about not wanting to walk into another ambush is complete bullshit.

Of all the complaints I've heard leveled against this game, "I can't get everybody to do and think what I want!" is one of the more interesting. What's the point of giving NPCs distinct personalities if you can just change them at whim?
Look, it's a quest. I want it to get out of my journal. I don't want it to be a giant scale balance. I don't want a bunch of no-win states if I don't travel through the dialog trees with an FAQ. This was a problem for anything in BG2 and it might be a problem here. Do you ever gain more than one influence? Because you sure enough lose more than that. It wouldn't be bad if I could use some of my abilities to rise it, but to just have it be a eyes on evaluation of each text option you select it's a huge drag.

[Ryan A]

*spoiler that the influence worriers can read to stop worrying*













due to some questline activity, it really doesn't matter what you say to Khelgar as long as you get him his phat lewts he's in your pocket







seriously... don't sweat the influence stuff. also, certain actions will bump your influence by 3 at a time with certain npcs
















yarr there be spoilers above

[foogla]

*snip*
Problem is, if you try to be polite and say thanks you get hosed big time (-4!). Gg dude, gg.

Btw I don't consider this as a spoiler because it's so dumb.

I don't need a Monk anyway. :(

[Hammet]

OK I'm at the early stages of the game and was planning on making a Warpriest. I'm currently at Ftr1/Cleric4 and have Helm as my deity which sounded like a reasonable choice. However, I just looked at my char sheet and under Helm it says that his PrCl is Divine Champion! I've had no earlier indication of this and would like to know if it means I'm fucked to get Warpriest now or if it means I still will be able to go with Warpriest instead? Or both. Anyone? I've RTFM but have not found how this works.

Edit: Since I'm in Euroland I only have a 70 page pdf as a manual. Atari fucknuts.

[Ryan A]

Don't worry about that, Hammet. What you're looking at is which Cleric Build your cleric is. I think. Unless you actually clicked Divine Champion when you levelled up.

I do, however, think it's a wasted level to have 1 in Fighter if you're aiming at Warpriest. You lose a whole caster level due to that 1 you have in Fighter, there's really no need for the extra feat you get as a first level fighter, and trust me, if you plan on being a melee casting cleric (which is what Warpriest is really made for, imo) you'll be wanting to use your cleric spells to buff yourself up such that you won't even notice the negligible BAB and HP you gain with a level of fighter.

[DeepT]

2. DeepT, have you ever heard the expression that you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar? I understand where you're coming from, but dwarves are notoriously stubborn and maybe, just maybe, Khelgar isn't ready to confront the truthjust yet. Give him a little time and I'm sure he'll come around.

3. Are you finished whining yet? We have more important things to do and I could care less what you think.

1. Given the example of some NPC who abandons his clan which caused a great loss of life, a statement like "Yeah, leaving your clan was perfectly fine to do." is not a rational step in the realization of how leaving his clan was a bad thing to do. Yet in NWN2, this is exactly how it goes down.

2. Obviously you do care and you do not have more important things to do, otherwise you would not have responded.

[Marcus Walser]

1. Given the example of some NPC who abandons his clan which caused a great loss of life, a statement like "Yeah, leaving your clan was perfectly fine to do." is not a rational step in the realization of how leaving his clan was a bad thing to do. Yet in NWN2, this is exactly how it goes down.

2. Obviously you do care and you do not have more important things to do, otherwise you would not have responded.


DeepT, I'm not entirely certain, but I think your humor detector is broken. He was doing a dialogue tree for you. ;-)

[unbongwah]

. . . there's really no need for the extra feat you get as a first level fighter . . .
Actually, you get three feats as a 1st level fighter you don't get as a cleric: Martial weapons proficiency, Tower shields proficiency, and that bonus fighter feat.

Whether it's worth it is still debatable. I think it is, but it's largely a matter of what sort of cleric you want. I want mine to have monkey grip, so I can use a greatsword in one hand and a tower shield in the other. Divine Might, I suspect, helps make up for the to-hit penalty nicely. :-)

[Hammet]

OK thanks Ryan for clearing that up. It was late night playing and I tend to become even more fatalistically paranoid past midnight. Not sure if the Ftr level was worth it, having a Wall shield at lvl 4 is nice though. Was planning on Specializing in Warhammer at some point too but am not sure about that anymore. Sun and Strength are working good as domains for me, the Graveyard was a cinch with insta-destruct on almost everything.

[caesarbear]

Can two players be in two different areas at the same time? If not, this is going to kill the large-scale PW NWN2 idea.
Yes players can be in separate areas, it's just that the campaign is designed to prevent that. Also convos and cut-scenes do not have to interrupt all players, it's just an option that was done in the campaign.

There's a lot of kvetching about how NWN2 won't be able to support large PWs, but this has to do with the demand on system memory and the necessity for players to download walkmesh files to join online. Honestly, I didn't think large empty areas was much of a draw for PWs in the first place. A well designed PW can still have a large world feel while only providing a portion of it. Huge online worlds aren't feasible right now, but might be in a couple of years. Hopefully PW designers will use the opportunity to create greater amounts of player interaction instead just maps to wonder on.

Oh, and way to miss Mehrunes's great post.

[worm]

DeepT, I'm not entirely certain, but I think your humor detector is broken. He was doing a dialogue tree for you. ;-)
[Influence:Failure]

[unbongwah]

Now in a game like NWN2, when you save someone or kill someone, how can they assign an alignment adjustment to it?
Well, usually it's pretty obvious from the dialog choices which are meant to be the good, evil, and "hey, I'm just in it for the money, sweetheart" options. Sometimes the exact same line will be listed twice, except the second time it will be explicitly marked "[Lie]" - gee, I wonder why...

I actually agree with those who think the D&D alignment system is kinda stupid, shallow, and simplistic. But given that it is an intrinsic part of the D&D experience, I have no real qualms about the way Obsidian (or Bioware before them) have chosen to implement it. Well, apart from the fact the only two evil options tend to be, "Your money or your life!" or "Screw it, I'll just kill you and take your shit." When I'm in the mood to be diabolical, I like to set my sights a little higher than "mugger" or "mass murderer."

[MikeJ]

Well, apart from the fact the only two evil options tend to be, "Your money or your life!" or "Screw it, I'll just kill you and take your shit." When I'm in the mood to be diabolical, I like to set my sights a little higher than "mugger" or "mass murderer."

Maybe they could copy some of the good responses and add "[because this will further my diabolical scheme]" to the end.

[MarchHare]

You mean you didn't do the Underdark quest chain in Waterdeep? Oh well. Too late now.

Is this actually a section in the game? Currently I'm in Act 3, having just done the bit with the Fire Giants/Red Dragon while working to recover the dwarven artifact for Khelgar. Have I missed this part, or just not gotten to it yet?

[unbongwah]

Maybe they could copy some of the good responses and add "[because this will further my diabolical scheme]" to the end.
I've seen a few NWN mods where your character's thoughts were included in the dialogue options - so it indicated what you really were up to - and some of them were definitely of the "feign being good in order to advance my nefarious plot!" variety.

Obviously, I realize there is a limit to how many choices a given RPG can offer in such situations, but I do wish the Bioware & Obsidian guys would broaden their horizons a bit more on that front.

[MikeJ]

Is this actually a section in the game? Currently I'm in Act 3, having just done the bit with the Fire Giants/Red Dragon while working to recover the dwarven artifact for Khelgar. Have I missed this part, or just not gotten to it yet?

If you fought the red dragon already and don't have access to a warlock NPC, then it's too late to get him in the Underdark. I don't know how you could have missed that whole thing though. Did you even talk to the Waterdeep emissary?

In other words, no.

[MarchHare]

I didn't even see a Waterdeep emissary! Where was that?

I do have the Warlock NPC though, but currently he's just sitting around at my keep doing nothing. I've been tending to use the rogue, sorceress, and cleric most of the time, sometimes adding either Khelgar or the Bard to the mix on a whim. I've only ever used Bishop, Sand, and Casavir when the plot has required it.

[MikeJ]

I didn't even see a Waterdeep emissary! Where was that?

I'm sure MikeSofaer can vouch for how trustworthy I am. Didn't you rescue the emissary from Waterdeep? He was captured by orcs enroute to Neverwinter. If you have a high enough Bluff he talks about some problems with drow. You end up sailing to Waterdeep and doing a few Underdark quests.

Really, I wasn't very impressed with this part. You hardly get any XP and it seems as though it was basically implemented as an afterthought.

[MarchHare]

Oh, that guy.

Yeah, I rescued him from the Orc prison, but then he took off saying he could "make it from here on his own" and I never saw him again. Where does he turn up after that to give you the Underdark quests?

And is the "warlock NPC" you refer to different than the one you get near the end of Act II (*SPOILER* Shandra's grandfather)?

Hmmm...that's a shame I missed that part. Something I'll have to do when I play the game a second time, I guess. :(

[Ryan A]

It's ok you're not too far to have missed the Amn part, MarchHare. It's better.

[DeepT]

I'm sure MikeSofaer can vouch for how trustworthy I am. Didn't you rescue the emissary from Waterdeep? He was captured by orcs enroute to Neverwinter. If you have a high enough Bluff he talks about some problems with drow. You end up sailing to Waterdeep and doing a few Underdark quests.

Really, I wasn't very impressed with this part. You hardly get any XP and it seems as though it was basically implemented as an afterthought.


Wait, you can do waterdeep / underdark quests only if your bluff is high when rescuing the emissary? Gee.. My high diplomacy didnt give me anything.

[MikeJ]

Wait, you can do waterdeep / underdark quests only if your bluff is high when rescuing the emissary? Gee.. My high diplomacy didnt give me anything.

I know you don't hold the dev's in high regard, but how likely is it that they would include a whole chain of quests in an area that's not even on the world map, and then only let people with high bluff skills access it?

[DeepT]

Actually I have quite a few friends from Obsidian on my ICQ list and I do chat with them all the time.

In any case, I missed that chain of quests, and I am normally fairly thorough with my conversation options.

[foogla]

Actually I have quite a few friends from Obsidian on my ICQ list and I do chat with them all the time.

In any case, I missed that chain of quests, and I am normally fairly thorough with my conversation options.

HI!

NO, HE IS TRRRRROLLING YOU! THEY ALL HAVE!

God does it feel good to have that off my chest.

[caesarbear]

Man, you are some easy marks.

[DeepT]

Does anyone have a link to more detailed information on the warlock class? The information in game and in the manual is virtually non-existent. I also looked at that d20.org site, but it doesn't have warlock info. Some questions I have:

1. Is there any kind of 'weapon' specialization for 'ranged touch' attack?

2. I noticed that a +to hit in my main head does increase my ranged touch chances. Will extra damage from a weapon or item also be added?

3. Are there any special warlock feats you can get? I think there were meta-magic feats, there certainly were school specialization feats which make no sense. If you pick a feat, like quicken spell, can you actually use that? What about epic feats?

[Gordon Cameron]

I'm not sure if this has been addressed before, but having read through several pages of this thread it doesn't seem to be. Apologies if this has been asked and answered.

I find the the party members are all on follow mode, regardless of whether they are in puppet mode or not. You can set follow to near, far, medium, but not on/off. So suppose I want to stealth my rogue and send her ahead to scout, plant traps, and whatnot, without worrying about the rest of the party coming bumbling after her. Is there any way I can accomplish this, without continually ordering the other party members to walk in the opposite direction?

Re parry: Oh crap. I assumed it was passive and dumped lots of points into it. I actually have to activate it? Been playing too much WoW...

[Soldats]

For that, you'll have to make sure you issue the "Stand your ground" command. You can find that by Shift+right-clicking/holding RMB until the options pop up. I found it to be bloody annoying.

[stusser]

This is an important tactic later in the game when fights actually get semi-hard. You tell your group of NPC AI morons to stand their ground, then run forward and pull enemies towards you, activating only part of the group and bunching them up in doorways due to the horrible pathing. This is of course totally stupid in a roleplaying sense, but makes fights much easier.

[caesarbear]

With Puppet mode on, Party AIs will follow you when not in combat. When in combat you must give them specific orders. Oddly, your main PC will never follow another party member when in puppet mode. If you want to sneak with a character, right click hold on the currently controlled PC and broadcast command: stand ground. Honestly I don't understand the complaints about this. Would you want to manually direct every party PC wherever you go?

[Rock8man]

Honestly I don't understand the complaints about this. Would you want to manually direct every party PC wherever you go?

Yeah, I don't really understand the complaints about this system either. It works really well for the most part.

On the other hand, I completely understand the problem Gordon had, since the right-click menu is really not used very often, and I always forget about the right-click menu. I had the same problem as Gordon in one of the dungeons where I was trying to sneak into some rooms as Neeshka, but everyone in my party kept following me even on puppet mode. Then I suddenly remembered the right-click menu, and everything was ok again.

I kind of wish they'd allowed the "Broadcast command" options in the right-click menu to be dragged over to the quickslot bar.

[Rock8man]

On a different topic: I love this game's pacing. The writers really do a great job of building up lots of mini-climaxes throughout the game that feel compelling, only to lead to another thread. I've played lots of games that did this in the past, and it really felt like they overstayed their welcome. Some games just feel too long.

Take the original Thief: The Dark Project, for example. I loved the twist and turns in that game, but after there's a big revelation near the end of the game, in level 10 I think, the game inserts a couple of long tedious levels which ruined the pacing. Instead of hurtling toward a big climax, the game just kind of stalled for a couple of levels. Luckily the last level was short and sweet and made up for it.

In NWN2 they do a really fine job of making the game satisfying in short bursts. You can play for an hour or two and get so much accomplished. At the same time, you're in this epic tale that's really one of the longest games I've ever played I think. I haven't played Baldur's Gate 2, which I've also heard is really long, but other than that I can't think of a game this long. I think I've already played past the time I spent in one run through the Fallout games, as well as Final Fantasy X, KOTOR, KOTOR 2, PS:Torment, Jade Empire, Suikoden 3, and I'm sure other story-based games I can't think of right now.

The only two non-strategy story-based games I can think of that I've probably spent a longer time playing are Morrowind and Oblivion. Unfortunately, I didn't end up finishing either of those games' main stories. Once the combat got too easy in both games, I slowly lost interest. Which is a shame, since I'd especially liked to have known how Oblivion ended. I keep meaning to go back into it one of these days and mess with the difficulty slider to make the game challenging again, and get back to the duty of shutting down those Oblivion gates near the towns.

Anyway, sorry about that, I got sidetracked. I just don't see something like that happening with NWN2. The linear structure of the game makes it so that the story is a lot more compelling, and ever since I switched to Hardcore D&D Rules, on the advice of the posters here, I've been having a blast with the combat. The main thing I don't like about "Normal" difficulty is that they don't allow the enemy to score critical hits on you, which just makes it so unfair. The game is a lot more interesting turned up to Hardcore D&D. Plus I was surprised that on this setting they didn't take away any of the "conveniences" that I didn't want to lose. Namely, the ability to rest anywhere in 5 seconds. I was really afraid that Hardcore D&D rules would make me go stay at an inn or camp out for the night somewhere or something like that. But no, the rule changes just make the fights more interesting, that's all.

[Matt Perkins]

rockman, we played a very different game... though to be fair, I never made it past the Orcs... I just got too bored. I have too many good games to play to slug through one. Maybe later when I hit a gaming dearth.

[Kunikos]

I didn't even see a Waterdeep emissary! Where was that?

I do have the Warlock NPC though, but currently he's just sitting around at my keep doing nothing. I've been tending to use the rogue, sorceress, and cleric most of the time, sometimes adding either Khelgar or the Bard to the mix on a whim. I've only ever used Bishop, Sand, and Casavir when the plot has required it.

Trust me, once you get the Knock spell (either through Sand or the Commander's Ring or another trinket) you can just perma-sideline Neeshka in favor of Grobnar. Ironskin song wtfpwns anything she can do, and he has spellcasting to boot (incl. find traps). As long as you keep your reflexes up on your main character you can avoid taking too much damage (and if you're a fighter type with lots of HP it won't matter much anyway).

[Kunikos]

rockman, we played a very different game... though to be fair, I never made it past the Orcs... I just got too bored. I have too many good games to play to slug through one. Maybe later when I hit a gaming dearth.

Maybe you just aren't in the mood for an epic game? Did you play Oblivion, and if so, did you get very far in it?

[MarchHare]

Trust me, once you get the Knock spell (either through Sand or the Commander's Ring or another trinket) you can just perma-sideline Neeshka in favor of Grobnar. Ironskin song wtfpwns anything she can do, and he has spellcasting to boot (incl. find traps). As long as you keep your reflexes up on your main character you can avoid taking too much damage (and if you're a fighter type with lots of HP it won't matter much anyway).

I don't know, towards the end of the game, Neeshka became a wtfpwn machine once I got her all the two-weapon fighting talents and a pair of nice weapons. She did require more micromanagement in order to make sure she was in a position where she could sneak attack, but I found it to be worth the effort. Plus, I really liked her character, but YMMV there.

[Kunikos]

I don't know, towards the end of the game, Neeshka became a wtfpwn machine once I got her all the two-weapon fighting talents and a pair of nice weapons. She did require more micromanagement in order to make sure she was in a position where she could sneak attack, but I found it to be worth the effort. Plus, I really liked her character, but YMMV there.

I dunno, she's a little shallow what with the "I want to be the best thief in the world" thing going on. Her low hit points and lower level have made me stick her with a heavy crossbow and rapid reload / point blank shot. Bolts though are severely underpowered compared to melee. Maybe that's why I don't really like her that much. At least Grobnar with his crossbow can also cast spells, which is what I use him for. I kinda wish that he had a side-quest to do, or hell, most of the characters. All I've been able to do so far as the side-quests for Khelgar and Neeshka, the former was well worth it for the rewards and the latter was kinda Meh.

[Gordon Cameron]

With Puppet mode on, Party AIs will follow you when not in combat. When in combat you must give them specific orders. Oddly, your main PC will never follow another party member when in puppet mode. If you want to sneak with a character, right click hold on the currently controlled PC and broadcast command: stand ground. Honestly I don't understand the complaints about this. Would you want to manually direct every party PC wherever you go?

In my case it wasn't a question of complaining so much as "not knowing that feature existed." Of course I want party members to follow by default. It's just good to know I can solo one of them when I need to. So thanks to those who pointed out the whole rightclick thingy.

I should have RTFM some more I suppose, but after the first 30 pages or so I was getting antsy to try the game.

[Matt Perkins]

Maybe you just aren't in the mood for an epic game? Did you play Oblivion, and if so, did you get very far in it? I played Oblivion for probably 20 or 30 hours before I got bored with it. And I'm looking to restart it now. Just installed it on my new rig.

I think with NWN2 it was just too many things built up at once.

- the combat is BORING and looks even more boring than the first. It's like they didn't even page attention KOTOR2.
- the interaction between the npcs was horrible. It wasn't real interaction it was always another excuse to make you pick who side you were on.
- the engine. it brought my 7450 to it's knees. and impressive feat.
- boring storyline. go here, do that. why? don't ask. you've seen this storyline before? really? because we're pretty sure it's the coolest thing ever invented so we're going to have you continue along pretending we're all interested.


*shrugs*


I'm still playing around with it and maybe I'll actually make a mod with this one. But overall, after the initial 5 hours of new game! I was left feeling...bored.

[stusser]

Umm, I just replayed KOTOR2 last month. Combat consisted of:

1) enemy in sight, autotargetted, game pauses
2) pop master speed if it expired, then hit the autoattack key. when that enemy dies, next one is automatically attacked, and so on and so forth.
3) loot

[olaf]

I think the combat is great, or could be. It just shouldnt be realtime or, if they insist (or the market insists) on realtime then at least give us autopause events for tough battles and competent AI so you dont have to micro every fight.

Seriously. The casters will dump an entire spellbook per fight, it doesnt matter who the fight is against. Healers dont heal...other characters. Uh, what? How did that get by your testing?

My characters have no tactical battlefield sense. They love seeing how many AoOs they can get per fight, I think they are running a contest unbeknownst to the protagonist, me. Neeshka and her sneak attack are devastating but you pretty much have to move her to each new target to ensure it happens. Khelgar and his great cleave and miles of HP/Armor are just sick, but again, you have to move him yourself and choose his targets if you want to get any efficiency out of him. Qara is a nuke machine but holy lord god help you if you are playing hardcore, she is homicidal. Even if you are playing normal she makes horrible decisions on what to cast on who.

I think the NPC interaction is fine. Much better than most party based games. I do think they failed at the influence system though, each NPC wants you to pick them or throw them a bone, not influence them.

The engine is a dog.

The story is fine. I certainly dont see how anyone could judge it below average.

[caesarbear]

The endless legions of orcs right after the endless legions of thugs was a really poor decision and probably worse than the catacombs of Torment. I'd find an empty nook in the orc cave and then a second later a party of orcs will appear out of that nook. I know the toolset and know exactly what the designer did and it's amateur hour. It's a frequent problem that shows up in user mods by inexperienced builders. That section really has no other point but to get your party to a higher level.

Still I like the combat enough that I got through it. Turn up the difficult if you find it too boring.

[Kunikos]

- the combat is BORING and looks even more boring than the first. It's like they didn't even page attention KOTOR2.


I like the combat animations for two-weapon fighting. Overall I think it's roughly similar to the combat in KOTOR2.

- the interaction between the npcs was horrible. It wasn't real interaction it was always another excuse to make you pick who side you were on.

I'm honestly not sure what you were expecting, really. BG2 is no different, and Oblivion doesn't even have interaction between NPCs. There is quite a bit of banter between the companions that doesn't involve the PC at all, they just comment on various things or get into arguments with each other. You don't even have to play favorites, you can tell them both to shut their pie holes if you are present at the time.


- the engine. it brought my 7450 to it's knees. and impressive feat.


I have no idea what a 7450 is, so I have no idea how to put this into any kind of context. I do agree that the game needs some speed-ups, but then again Oblivion was pretty shitty on my old system for no apparent reason too.


- boring storyline. go here, do that. why? don't ask. you've seen this storyline before? really? because we're pretty sure it's the coolest thing ever invented so we're going to have you continue along pretending we're all interested.


I think it's pretty clear to what your motivation is for going to various places and doing things. Everything starts falling into place as far as to the "why are people attacking me" and "why is this druid following me" and whatnot as the game progresses.


I'm still playing around with it and maybe I'll actually make a mod with this one. But overall, after the initial 5 hours of new game! I was left feeling...bored.

To each his own then. I think it's a fun game. The only part that I thought dragged on a bit was in Neverwinter when you are working for either side to try and get into the restricted area. Five hours is hardly enough time to judge any game, especially one as lengthy as NWN2. I have to wager if that's all the time you've spent that you haven't or barely glanced at the options menus, which certainly alleviated some of my issues, or learned how to hotbar useable feats from your character sheet.

The endless legions of orcs right after the endless legions of thugs was a really poor decision and probably worse than the catacombs of Torment.

I'm fairly certain there is a speech skill solution to many of the dungeons and confrontations that start with a dialogue, including orcs, thugs, ogres, guards, etc.

The game isn't perfect by any means, and I hope that future patches will help out with the performance issues.

[JoshV]

Yeah, i do find it odd that all your complaints are things that oblivion does even less of.

Party interaction...Nope
Combat...............So very basic and boring in oblivion
Storyline.............so boring, with really really boring quests for the most part
Graphics.............Ok, this is a wash, Oblivion didn't even run on my system at the time, i had to upgrade, and my upgraded system runs NWN2 fine.

[Kunikos]

I have to imagine that it's the sluggishness and somewhat irritating UI that turns most people off and makes them cranky towards the rest of the game. Admittedly the spellcasting AI is pretty ass too, but Normal difficulty mode is very forgiving. If you manage your caster's queues somewhat diligently you can work around the problem.

[caesarbear]

I'm fairly certain there is a speech skill solution to many of the dungeons and confrontations that start with a dialogue, including orcs, thugs, ogres, guards, etc.

Yeah, but I guess the orcs weren't swayed by my shining paladin charm. It's not so much the combat but the fact that I know if I had 15 minutes with it in the toolset, I could have made it much better. Don't get me wrong I like the game and I obviously love the NWN idea, but it's things like this where the short development cycle shows. You can't escape that NWN2 was made for the money and not for the love of it.

[MikeJ]

Don't get me wrong I like the game and I obviously love the NWN idea, but it's things like this where the short development cycle shows. You can't escape that NWN2 was made for the money and not for the love of it.

Yeah, it shows that it was a little rushed. There's a lack of polish in the campaign.

[Desslock]

Which is a shame, since I'd especially liked to have known how Oblivion ended. I keep meaning to go back into it one of these days and mess with the difficulty slider to make the game challenging again, and get back to the duty of shutting down those Oblivion gates near the towns.

If you just want to see how it ends, you can actually skip the "shut down the Oblivion gates" stuff -- those are optional quests -- and just proceed to the next stage of the main quest. Doing so makes the resulting battle considerably harder, but that might also address your annoyance with the ease of combat.

Completely agree that NWN2 is a much better game with the D&D rules, although it's probably too difficult for the average player that way.

[Desslock]

I'm still playing around with it and maybe I'll actually make a mod with this one. But overall, after the initial 5 hours of new game! I was left feeling...bored.

You really didn't play the game long enough to see that 3 of your 4 complaints aren't accurate - the campaign isn't boring, NPC interaction is actually at least as good as in the KOTOR games, and combat is challenging and exciting (the crap with the lizards, undead and thugs at the beginning of the game is easily the worst stuff in the game). The engine remains a pig, however.

That said - it's completely legitimate to say that you don't want to put more time into a game than 5 hours in order to see if you ultimately enjoy it -- NWN2's slow start is a big flaw, in my opinion, but the first 5-8 hours are not really representative of the rest of this large game.

[Gordon Cameron]

Am I allowed to like both Oblivion and NWN2?

Incidentally, one area where NWN2's graphics trump Oblivion is that some of the NPCs' faces actually look human. (Even if they are elves or something.)

[Matt Perkins]

Kuni, this isn't my first lap around the track, so to speak. So I know how to set the options, deal with the annoyances, etc. My question, why should I? I changed what helped make it better, but I didn't see the button that fixed the engine performance and the AI and boring. See specific answers before.
I like the combat animations for two-weapon fighting. Overall I think it's roughly similar to the combat in KOTOR2.
No... In KOTOR2, the attack animations were very cool. Swords clanged, people doged, light sabers did spiffy things, special attacks looked special, etc. Very rarely does any of that happen in NWN2. On the plus side, almost all of the spells look really cool. Especially some of the cleric spells I've seen.



I'm honestly not sure what you were expecting, really. BG2 is no different, and Oblivion doesn't even have interaction between NPCs. There is quite a bit of banter between the companions that doesn't involve the PC at all, they just comment on various things or get into arguments with each other. You don't even have to play favorites, you can tell them both to shut their pie holes if you are present at the time.
I was hoping for KOTOR interaction, or even BG2 interaction. Influence, not picking sides and baby sitting each obvious faction dig so I could still do quests with them. They made every thing so obvious, so simple retarded and so annoying it wasn't even funny. Everytime someone talked, you had to pick to influence and how to piss off. Yeah, just like real life. bluh.



I have no idea what a 7450 is, so I have no idea how to put this into any kind of context. I do agree that the game needs some speed-ups, but then again Oblivion was pretty shitty on my old system for no apparent reason too.
SLI in a box. And Oblivion ran great on my last machine... This engine brings EVERYONES system to it's knees...


I think it's pretty clear to what your motivation is for going to various places and doing things. Everything starts falling into place as far as to the "why are people attacking me" and "why is this druid following me" and whatnot as the game progresses.
The motivation is...you're being attacked. I've NEVER seen that story line before. It's almost the exact same story line from the first one. Replace being attacked with, saving your master and you're in. In both you have to figure out what this mysterious object the bad guys want is... double bluh. I've played this storyline before, heck, this story line is so common, I've run this storyline before. To be fair, I didn't get past the Orcs outside of Neverwinter, so maybe it gets better.


To each his own then. I think it's a fun game. The only part that I thought dragged on a bit was in Neverwinter when you are working for either side to try and get into the restricted area. Five hours is hardly enough time to judge any game, especially one as lengthy as NWN2. I have to wager if that's all the time you've spent that you haven't or barely glanced at the options menus, which certainly alleviated some of my issues, or learned how to hotbar useable feats from your character sheet.
I didn't play for just 5 hours, but that's where the "this game is cool" started to wear off. I don't know how to check how long played and I still haven't decided to completely swear it off. I'm really hoping they patch in some fixes for some things. See olaf's post above for some REALLY good points on the AI.


I'm fairly certain there is a speech skill solution to many of the dungeons and confrontations that start with a dialogue, including orcs, thugs, ogres, guards, etc. Really? That's great. Do I get experience for not fighting? Do I get any items? Nope. Not once. If you talk your way out of a fight, you get nothing. Might as well just declare this game a hack and slash and be done with it.


The game isn't perfect by any means, and I hope that future patches will help out with the performance issues. Agreed on both points.


I'd like to see the following fixed:
- the AI revamped all together
- combat animations that weren't, swing and be done. Add some flips, at some clashing swords/weapons/shields/armor. At least attempt to make it look like combat.
- Fix the lack of experience for anything but slaying everything. That is one of the things that upset me the most. I play a good character that tries to talk his way out of things? I get jack. Welcome to grade school D&D.
- Fix the damned engine
- Neverwinter... anyone else notice you're supposed to be in this huge city, but most everyone stands outside? Sure, load times aren't fun and I'm not sure how to fix this without changing the layout (maybe have a bazaar type thing for the merchants), but having everyone stand outside the buildings in every city I've been too so far is incredibly lame. It was jarring for me. Though definitely not a game ender, just another annoyance to put on top of things.
- interactions...wow. I might write my own mod just to do this right. It's SO BAD. BG2 was pretty decent, KOTOR was all right, though often dull. KOTOR2 nailed it.

*whew*

Now, I'm not saying the game is a dud, I'm just saying, it's not grabbing me enough to make me play past all of the things I mentioned above.

[Matt Perkins]

You really didn't play the game long enough to see that 3 of your 4 complaints aren't accurate - the campaign isn't boring, NPC interaction is actually at least as good as in the KOTOR games, and combat is challenging and exciting (the crap with the lizards, undead and thugs at the beginning of the game is easily the worst stuff in the game). The engine remains a pig, however.

That said - it's completely legitimate to say that you don't want to put more time into a game than 5 hours in order to see if you ultimately enjoy it -- NWN2's slow start is a big flaw, in my opinion, but the first 5-8 hours are not really representative of the rest of this large game.
People keep telling me this, but I don't know if the game hasn't grabbed me by level 9 (which is what my cleric is at) if I'm going to continue... too many other good games to slog through this one.

[Desslock]

Am I allowed to like both Oblivion and NWN2?

I certainly do -- I'd love a game that had all the strengths of both, and none of the weaknesses of either, but they're really very different games with different design priorities -- they have about as much in common as Max Payne and Far Cry do as shooters.