NWN2 - Game play / mechanics [Archive] - Page 2

Matt Perkins

11-21-2006, 12:29 PM

I certainly do -- I'd love a game that had all the strengths of both, and none of the weaknesses of either, but they're really very different games with different design priorities -- they have about as much in common as Max Payne and Far Cry do as shooters.
Yeah, I like Oblivion and will play it again... as I probably will with NWN2. Heck, I might start it up again this long weekend. It just had me so annoyed I gave up on it awhile.

Desslock

11-21-2006, 12:37 PM

Really? That's great. Do I get experience for not fighting? Do I get any items? Nope. Not once. If you talk your way out of a fight, you get nothing. Might as well just declare this game a hack and slash and be done with it..

I think there's actually several occasions where you get experience and rewarded for not fighting.

Two things really stand out as "wrong" with what you're otherwise saying - the character interactions really do pick up to the point where they're very similar to KOTOR2 (which you indicated you liked), and the overall storyline is actually very involved, with some pretty cool twists and epic scope, once it gets going. It also handles some elements - politics, for instance, and dealing with a pending crisis - in a more realistic, interesting manner, than any other RPG I can think of off-hand.

I'm not suggesting you should continue to put time into a game you're not enjoying, or that you haven't given the game a fair shake to see if it's something you like -- I just wanted to give you additional information to help you make a more informed decision about whether or not you want to bother further.

Matt Perkins

11-21-2006, 01:09 PM

Desslock

Don't keep couching your arguing in the whole "I'm not saying you need to play or should" etc stuff. I'm probably going to play again...heck I've got a restart of a thief already 5 levels when I got bored of my cleric. :)

And since most everyone that's played it past where I stopped at said it's worth it, I'll probably go ahead and take the early hit just to give it a longer chance. It's still D&D after all... though I might wait until the next patch fixes some stuff.

Rock8man

11-21-2006, 01:17 PM

I just wanted to second Desslock's sentiments. I'm very leary of telling anyone "just keep playing, believe me it gets much better". People told me that with Baldur's Gate, and I slogged through that one, and it never got better, it was a horrible gaming experience for me. I'm sure it just clicked for a lot of people, but all I could see was its flaws all the way through, and it just never got better for me. I think if you're not enjoying this game, you really shouldn't try to slog through it in the hopes that it gets better.

That being said though, I did want to comment that the story does get better. That my sweet-talking bard has had a LOT of options to avoid fighting and talk his way out of situations, and has done so, with ample rewards in both experience and items. Like I said earlier, one of the things I like most about the game is that it provides a nice balance of combat, storyline, and dialogue every time I sit down to play for an hour or two. There are a few rare instance where there's too much combat in a row (like with the Orcs) or too much talking in a row (although I didn't mind that part myself, since it was brilliantly written, and one of my favorite parts of the game so far), but overall they do a great job of mixing it up.

Desslock: Thanks for advice on how to get back into Oblivion. I think I'll give that a try. I think I'd freed up three town's Oblivion gates anyway, so that should be enough to move on with the story. I do need to mess with the difficulty slider though, since I have equipment from sidequests that gives me so much damage reflection, spell reflection, and damage reduction that I just can't take a beating anymore on normal difficulty. The sidequest rewards in that game are really just a little too good.

unbongwah

11-21-2006, 02:52 PM

Desslock

11-21-2006, 03:13 PM

I would put it this way: NWN 2 gets better, but it doesn't get any different. I.e., it's basically a straight-forward dungeon slog, it's just that the plot, the NPCs, (some of) the fights, etc. get more interesting over time. But the interface annoyances and performance hiccups don't go away (and in some cases they get worse); the mostly-linear narrative doesn't suddenly open up (much); the enclosed environments don't magically become a free-roaming Oblivion-style world; and the NPC AI doesn't get not dumb.

Sure -- I agree, and think that's a good summary. The game's not going to suddenly acquire environments that are more interactive, or less artificially linear/restrictive, any more than the KOTOR games ever will. The nature of those games are fundamentally the same, but NWN2 fares worse because its engine is clunkier, and the AI is less able to compentently manage D&D's more complicated ruleset. But NWN2 gains points if you're a D&D fan and are disappointed that we haven't been offered a game of similarly large scope since BG2.

Rock8man

11-21-2006, 06:40 PM

Another thing I'm digging in this game is finally finding spell casting classes that I enjoy playing. I always hated the concept of choosing which spells to memorize ahead of time in anticipation of what I might need to cast.

I'd never played a bard before, and I love how I can cast any of my spells at any time. Sorcerers work this way too, but I really enjoy just controlling my bard and trying to win fights just based on what he does differently.

I don't know why you guys are all having trouble with Neeshka. In my case, she almost always attacks from the side or back and gets her sneak attack bonus. Khelgar always goes in and kicks some ass, and currently I'm pretty happy with the spell casting choices the cleric makes. Sure, she doesn't heal the party, but she makes sure that she doesn't get hit and that she hits the others, and that's all I ask of her.

If I continuously lose a certain fight, I try to make the difference in the fight just by casting different spells with my bard, and using different songs to make the difference in battle. Most of the time this is enough. If that's not enough, then I can pause and give orders to the other spell caster I have in the party to make the vital difference. But most of the time, my bard's songs and spells are really powerful. They can make the difference between my party getting wiped out in seconds, to us wiping the enemy out in seconds.

And that's because I don't have to pick which spells I'm going to cast ahead of time like Clerics, Wizards and Druids do.

DeepT

11-22-2006, 08:04 AM

I have finished nwn2 and there are a lot of things that do not get better, although the story does get more interesting.

The second time through I am playing as chaotic evil opposed to lawful good as was my first character. It is even more clear how broken thier faction / alignment system is. Currently kelgar loves me for picking all the psychopathic choices. Kelgar is NG. Then there is the druid and she hates me. She is also NG. If anything, Kelgar should be NE, not NG or hate me just as much as the druid.

Kunikos

11-22-2006, 09:07 AM

Really? That's great. Do I get experience for not fighting? Do I get any items? Nope. Not once. If you talk your way out of a fight, you get nothing. Might as well just declare this game a hack and slash and be done with it.

This is totally and absolutely wrong. There are in fact experience rewards that are far greater than the XP for killing anything in store for proper non-combat solutions. These may not be as big at the beginning of the game (as I didn't explore them at that point in the game), but as the game goes on it is increasingly big. The Castle Never segments give you 1000XP for each of 6 steps as opposed to fighting some things that give you 48XP for each of the encounters. There are also many situations where you can get items that you can't get from killing everything. Neeshka's side quests are pretty big evidence of this, and you can do them fairly early in the game (in Act I) once you get to Neverwinter.

Frankly for a straight shooting FR D&D game there is a lot more to the speech skills than I thought there would be, although there are non-speech solutions to problems for skull-of-rocks fighters (assuming you haven't been putting points into Intimidate).

Also, Oblivion is probably an example of a game where it is far worse.

And since most everyone that's played it past where I stopped at said it's worth it, I'll probably go ahead and take the early hit just to give it a longer chance. It's still D&D after all... though I might wait until the next patch fixes some stuff.

Supposedly there are quite a few graphic speed-ups in store for the 1.03 patch due next week. The beta of it lands today, but I wouldn't recommend it-- who knows if it'll screw your save-games or not.

For full details check this out:

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=522998&forum=109

NWN2 is by no means perfect, and the beginning is admittedly a little slow and slogging through while trying to solve everything by force of might probably makes it even longer. I just think anyone who buys this game owes it to themselves to at least get to the point in the game where you get your castle.

Kunikos

11-22-2006, 09:22 AM

I just wanted to second Desslock's sentiments. I'm very leary of telling anyone "just keep playing, believe me it gets much better". People told me that with Baldur's Gate, and I slogged through that one, and it never got better, it was a horrible gaming experience for me. I'm sure it just clicked for a lot of people, but all I could see was its flaws all the way through, and it just never got better for me. I think if you're not enjoying this game, you really shouldn't try to slog through it in the hopes that it gets better.

BG2 didn't click for me until I replayed it a year later with a walkthrough guide to help me through one or two spots and a mod to skip the whole opening dungeon (sometimes you just want to get to the freedom point already).

It may also be that if you try and play the game one way you aren't enjoying it that much because the combat is boring or too difficult, maybe just giving it a whirl as a different class might change the picture. At the beginning of the game you don't have a whole lot of choice as to what companions you have (in fact, none at all) but by the end of the game there are 10. A spellcaster has a whole lot more choices as to what you can do at the beginning of the game in each combat, while a fighter... well, you just click on stuff at first. Once you get power attack, whirlwind, grand cleave, etc combat gets pretty cool. I think two-weapon fighting has some of the coolest animations for low level, so if you are sword-and-boarding you miss out on it. A monk is pretty damn fun to watch as well!

Matt Perkins

11-22-2006, 09:44 AM

Sigh... That patches doesn't address AI at all. Nothing to do with it.

Oh well, IF they fix the engine, that'll be a good step.

olaf

11-22-2006, 11:08 AM

Sigh... That patches doesn't address AI at all. Nothing to do with it.

Oh well, IF they fix the engine, that'll be a good step.
Yeah I find it hard to believe the AI isnt a priority? Broken behavior tabs? The engine is a dog and yeah I have a few crashes and noticed some bugs, but having to micro manage every fight, in a real time game with a UI not conducive to micro, is what is taking away from my enjoyment as much as anything...probably more than anything.

Kunikos

11-22-2006, 04:34 PM

Well they have this mysterious "single player campaign fixes" list item for 1.03, so I'm not sure if AI is included in that heading but it's certainly possible... I know they are changing things around to make the opponents act smarter, which may carry over to the companions.

caesarbear

11-22-2006, 07:00 PM

Abbaon

11-23-2006, 05:59 PM

olaf

11-23-2006, 06:00 PM

I doubt AI fixes will happen in the next patch. That's not something that you can fix as an after thought. Honestly, and it's just my opinion, but I much prefer to puppet all my party members. I don't want the game to play itself. There's certainly room for improvement, especially with trying to move multiple characters through doorways, but frankly, they should be kinda stupid on there own.
lol then it shouldnt be fucking realtime and it damn sure shouldnt ship without some kind of autopause events, something this dev team ought to know a little something about.

Gordon Cameron

11-23-2006, 06:32 PM

I felt the same way for the first half of the campaign, but constantly cycling through my characters to make sure they all had something to do just wore me down. I'd like something between "puppet" and "Dungeon Siege": swing at anything in range, but DO NOT MOVE.

Yeah, that's the sort of setting I could use. In theory I don't mind micromanaging every guy's move but it can get wearying after a while. I may go back and have another look at the AI settings to see if I can find something acceptable. No more blundering forward into spike traps to attack enemies, though.

caesarbear

11-23-2006, 09:15 PM

lol then it shouldnt be fucking realtime and it damn sure shouldnt ship without some kind of autopause events, something this dev team ought to know a little something about.
Are you olaf73 over at the BioWare forums?

Major Malphunktion

11-24-2006, 05:16 AM

I have to agree with the last few. What happened to all those great AI configs from BGII? I also dont like that you cant select a party member in the play area- only by thier portrait- WTF is that?
I have to say this is the worst camera I've seen in a game in almost 10 years. If you put it on drive or chase , the swinging around is so jarring it will make you sick. Using the middle mouse button when not in pause to move is also very unforgiving.

MikeJ

11-24-2006, 05:28 AM

I have to agree with the last few. What happened to all those great AI configs from BGII? I also dont like that you cant select a party member in the play area- only by thier portrait- WTF is that?

There is an option to 'possess on click'. It's just not the default. You can also turn down the time it takes for the right menu to pop up, and reduce the camera lags and increase the camera speed. I don't know how they chose their defaults.

Desslock

11-24-2006, 06:22 AM

I also dont like that you cant select a party member in the play area- only by thier portrait- WTF is that? .

You can select a player in the play area - you can also just press the F1-F10 key for your party member, instead of clicking on the portrait.

I will say I'm a little surprised at people fondly comparing the AI from the BG games -- I really notice no difference -- companion AI, when left to its own devices, has always been terrible in D&D games. I've never NOT used "puppet mode" or (in the Infinity engine games) "AI off" for that reason. Agree with Olaf that I don't understand why the autopausing feature isn't present though, since that was even included in KOTOR.

stusser

11-24-2006, 06:51 AM

I just replayed the BG series a couple of months ago and I assure you that my party members participated in every fight. Minsc never lagged behind and missed out on the action. The pathfinding was about the same, all of these games have issues with narrow passages and doorways.

Autopause is missing, like 1000 other features and essentially all polish, because atari rushed the game to market. They released six months too early to make the holidays. This resulted in a compelling but deeply flawed game instead of a classic of the genre. Exact same problem as KOTOR2. Obsidian is falling into the same trap as Troika, they're a talented group of guys trying to make AAA genre titles but their QA is crap and they're absolutely crippled by their publisher. You'd think that working on such valuable licenses as star wars and D&D would grant them some leeway, get them some time to polish properly, but no. Atari is hungry.

Also they have no rights to code from KOTOR2, even though they wrote it. Just NWN1, which didn't have autopause.

Aeek

11-24-2006, 07:27 AM

I got pissed off in the tutorial when I grabbed all three clubs and couldn't find a way to give them to my companions.
Dropping didn't work, instantly picked up again. A misleading lesson that.

MikeJ

11-24-2006, 07:50 AM

I got pissed off in the tutorial when I grabbed all three clubs and couldn't find a way to give them to my companions.
Dropping didn't work, instantly picked up again. A misleading lesson that.

You can just drag inventory items to a character's portrait to tranfer it to their inventory. If you have a stack of items in your inventory, you can split it as a right-click menu option.

Chris Nahr

11-24-2006, 09:26 AM

I will say I'm a little surprised at people fondly comparing the AI from the BG games -- I really notice no difference -- companion AI, when left to its own devices, has always been terrible in D&D games.

Yes, but at least party members wouldn't just stand there and do nothing (with puppet mode off), or attempt to disarm traps in the middle of a fight. Two problems that I've already noticed quite often after ten hours or so. The BG AI was stupid but it wasn't this buggy.

Desslock

11-24-2006, 04:29 PM

Obsidian is falling into the same trap as Troika, they're a talented group of guys trying to make AAA genre titles but their QA is crap and they're absolutely crippled by their publisher.

I love the Obsidian guys, and their design style, but they've ALWAYS had that problem. Fallout 2 was far more buggy than either KOTOR 2 or NWN2 when initially released -- it was actually probably the buggiest RPG release ever, aside from Daggerfall and Darklands.

NWN2's engine is clunky, but there were remarkably few quest/gameplay bugs, especially for a game of this length and complexity.

And yeah, the AI is incapable of competently acting independently - maybe the BG games handled simple swing/chop characters better, but certainly spellcasting was just as pathetic if you left it to the AI. I'm so used to micromanaging D&D combat that it didn't really bother me at all - I want to control the combat to that level of detail.

Rob_Merritt

11-24-2006, 08:36 PM

Yes, but at least party members wouldn't just stand there and do nothing (with puppet mode off), or attempt to disarm traps in the middle of a fight. Two problems that I've already noticed quite often after ten hours or so. The BG AI was stupid but it wasn't this buggy.

Oh it gets worse. It seems if you do anything unexpected the game doesn't make it easy on you to recover. Talk to the wrong person at the wrong time and you might as well start over from the beginning. The strange AI is double crippling with an interface that is about as counter intuitive as one can get. Wish they would of just done KOTOR in a high fantasy setting. Maybe Dragon Age will be just that.

MikeJ

11-24-2006, 09:21 PM

Talk to the wrong person at the wrong time and you might as well start over from the beginning.

Do you have an example of this? I don't think I broke any quests and I wasn't exactly trying to follow a script.

JAGuarinc

11-24-2006, 10:26 PM

Yes, but at least party members wouldn't just stand there and do nothing (with puppet mode off), or attempt to disarm traps in the middle of a fight. Two problems that I've already noticed quite often after ten hours or so. The BG AI was stupid but it wasn't this buggy.

I've a minor theory that contributing to the 'do nothing' bit is initiative rolls. If you're controlling the character you tell them to get their asses up there to bash some heads. The AI waits until it's place in the turn comes up before it bravely charges forward to bash some heads.

caesarbear

11-24-2006, 10:53 PM

I got pissed off in the tutorial when I grabbed all three clubs and couldn't find a way to give them to my companions.
You're kidding, that's the most intuitive and simple aspect of NWN2. You don't even need to be close to the party member. Distributing loot is a snap. The only thing it lacks is a touch of realism like in JA2 where a PC would throw an item to another party member when too far to pass it, but with so much item swapping I'm happy it leaves that detail out.

their QA is crap
Their QA actually seems very good. NWN2 is very stable (although it is half a borrowed engine). I think a lot of people are calling things "bugs" when it's rather bad implementation or unpolished. The camera, for instance, has very few bugs. I've found one with free camera mode and there's the issue with rotating by 'pushing' the screen edges. Otherwise it behaves like it was intended to, which is the problem because it's clunky and takes getting used to.

The problem is the very short dev time for a title of NWN2's size and scope. You can certainly blame Atari for that, but Obsidian were the one's that agreed to what I believe was initially about an 18 month development cycle. I'll give them enormous credit for what they achieved in two years, but they had to know that NWN2 was not going to be the best product it could be.

Chris Nahr

11-24-2006, 11:26 PM

I've a minor theory that contributing to the 'do nothing' bit is initiative rolls. If you're controlling the character you tell them to get their asses up there to bash some heads. The AI waits until it's place in the turn comes up before it bravely charges forward to bash some heads.

I might be wrong but it looks like those inactive characters are pausing for at least one full round before doing anything, if at all. That doesn't seem like an initiative problem.

stusser

11-24-2006, 11:47 PM

If dragon age is KOTOR with chainmail bikinis, I'll be sorely disappointed. Don't know about you, but I'm counting on bioware to actually innovate within the genre, not just iterate out another copy of the same damn game. If bioware doesn't do it, who else will, or even can? CRPG developers aren't exactly common these days, and CRPG developers who have the freedom to innovate a AAA title without being constrained by their publishers... bioware is the only horse running that race.

Quality assurance isn't just about fixing bugs. Many quest solutions are nonintuitive, several main plot items are messed up up (Did I take the blade golem with me or was I supposed to go back? I reloaded to check. Did I lose the waterdeep emissary? I reloaded to check. And so on.), the UI is horrible garbage, the AI is useless, the pathing is bad, the level design is full of narrow corridors and doors that don't take the crap pathing into account, the camera and controls are an afterthought for all views except NWN1-style top down, performance is abysmal on top end hardware configurations, most quests only have a single solution, the influence system is counterintuitive (You gain influence by agreeing with the dorf that mindless violence is groovy at the same time you're trying to teach him to be a monk), and... well I could go on. QA should have caught this stuff. QA isn't just bug fixing or they would call it "bugfixin' time", it stands for quality assurance, and that's where they fell short. That's why NWN2 is a 6 and not a 9. (1-10 scale)

You and I can work past that because we're huge fans of CRPGs. We still note the flaws, but we enjoy it anyway. Problem is, its crossover appeal is annihilated, because all of those annoyances pile up to a big "screw it" from all the RTS, FPS, and WoW players out there.

Desslock

11-24-2006, 11:55 PM

CRPG developers who have the freedom to innovate a AAA title without being constrained by their publishers... bioware is the only horse running that race..

And Bethesda.

NWN2 is a damn fine RPG, even though its engine it inexplicably too much of a pig. Easily an 8.

That said, it's not for RPG-lite players at all - it's pretty inaccessible, really.

stusser

11-25-2006, 12:07 AM

Yeah good point, and bethesda too.

Generally speaking, I expect an 8 to have crossover appeal. If an JRPG gets an 8, I may give it a shot if I feel like experimenting, even though I'm not a big fan of spikey haired orphans with mysterious pasts saving the world through 20+ hours of cutscenes with jpop music. People who don't already dig CRPGs won't overlook NWN2's flaws.

caesarbear

11-25-2006, 01:52 AM

...but I'm counting on bioware to actually innovate within the genre
Where's this history of innovation from BioWare? The most daring and different Infinity game wasn't made by BioWare, and it also should be noted that it wasn't the best seller either. Bioware is making Dragon Age and a Yet-Another Fantasy MMO for PC. I don't think risk taking is ever in the equation for BioWare.

Quality assurance isn't just about fixing bugs.
But it's not about design. Most of the issues you mentioned are a result of design or essentially meaningless statements like "the UI is horrible garbage, the AI is useless, the pathing is bad". Do you really think the devs were not fully aware of the linear style of the outdoor maps? It certainly wasn't because of a limitation in the toolset. I won't say I think it's a better design (I don't) but I know why they did it, and it has to do with your mention of crossover appeal. Despite your guess that it doesn't have it, NWN2 is selling very well, beaten only by Sims2 Pets, so I'm not sure about that. You and I might think that some different design choices might make a better quality game, but I don't think that Q&A simply forgot to mention something to the design team.

I'm sounding negative, but overall I think NWN2 is definitely a good game and worthy of it's sales to date.

ydejin

11-25-2006, 03:03 AM

Where's this history of innovation from BioWare? The most daring and different Infinity game wasn't made by BioWare, and it also should be noted that it wasn't the best seller either. Bioware is making Dragon Age and a Yet-Another Fantasy MMO for PC. I don't think risk taking is ever in the equation for BioWare.

Wasn't BG1 a considerable step up from previous RPGs?

I think one thing that BioWare has done very well is making NPCs really come to life. In BG1 and even more in BG2, I felt like I had a real party with real characters in it. IMO that was one of the biggest weaknesses of NWN1 and was one big reason why NWN1 felt like such a step backward from BG2 (although HotU certainly improved things).

caesarbear

11-25-2006, 03:21 AM

Wasn't BG1 a considerable step up from previous RPGs?

Sure it was, but it was also following much of the standard set by the SSI D&D games. It was not an innovation within the genre like maybe Darklands.

Angie Gallant

11-25-2006, 06:56 AM

You know, I have never heard of a company where the word of QA was law. In my experience you report bugs and make suggestions and champion them as best you can, but it's the project leads who make the ultimate call. That call may be to ship it with a certain number of known bugs present. That call may be that you are now too close to the project to give meaningful suggestions to improve the user experience.

Maybe that's not the case here. Maybe Obsidian's QA team runs the whole damn show and they were just lazy and/or retarded. But I'd bet a shiny nickle against it.

John Reynolds

11-25-2006, 07:20 AM

IMO that was one of the biggest weaknesses of NWN1 and was one big reason why NWN1 felt like such a step backward from BG2 (although HotU certainly improved things).

I used to call NWN my personal coaster of the year for 2002 because of the sheer retarded-ness of designing a D&D-based single player campaign around the notion of a single characcter.

NWN2's party is definitely giving the game a nice BG2/KotOR feel that I'm groovin' on. And combat itself has so much more depth with the increased options a mix of character classes bring compared to NWN1.

foogla

11-25-2006, 08:12 AM

But then forcing Cassavir and Sand on you is just retarded.

If you have such a small party then goddammit don't make it suboptimal without giving me a choice. Especially if you have formed that party into a well-oiled fighting machine that suddenly has to chose to drop either a thief, nuker or buffer for another tank.

Desslock

11-25-2006, 08:54 AM

no one is forced on you for more than one quest

Becoming

11-25-2006, 10:09 AM

So I had my first Police Squad moment last night when my entire party started chasing two thugs around some benches in the middle of a room. Apparently the criminals in question thought they could outrun them in circles or something (with both sides in question stopping for the occasional swing over the top of said benches). Anyone else have the pathfinding go briefly insane on them?

olaf

11-25-2006, 11:21 AM

From my player/customer perspective whether or not the QA/tester dudes or the team/project leads or even the publisher are at fault is irrelevant. Stuff that jumps right out at you like broken behavior tabs is stuff that should have been fixed before the game shipped not stuff that still isnt fixed after 3 patches. I think the Troika comparison is a good one.

stusser

11-25-2006, 01:27 PM

but I don't think that Q&A simply forgot to mention something to the design team. Sounds like you and Angie and maybe some others worked in QA and are taking this as a personal affront. Please be assured that as a consumer I totally don't care if the QA team failed to report these issues, the developers didn't prioritize and fix them, or the publisher didn't give the devs sufficient time and resources to do so. It's still a failure in QA because the game was released unpolished. Quality was not assured.

NWN2 sold well initially. Not #2, but it made it to #4 for PC games in its first week of release. Lasting appeal (and sales) are up to atari.

John Reynolds

11-25-2006, 01:31 PM

The Troika comparison would be valid if Obsidian's employees were online saying they'll patch their game if the publisher pays for it.

caesarbear

11-25-2006, 06:16 PM

NWN2 sold well initially. Not #2, but it made it to #4 for PC games in its first week of release. Lasting appeal (and sales) are up to atari.
It was #2 first week. Last week DVD version was #4 and CD version was #8. I don't know what that adds up to. I notice Flight Sim X was also split so Third best seller is probably a likely bet. More to the point it's selling better than other RPG options, Gothic 3 and Guild Wars: Nightfall.

I'm not taking any kind of personal affront, I'm just finding your understanding and/or expectation of the QA department a little weird. You have every right to complain about NWN2's deficiencies, but don't beat up on the little guys that couldn't do anything about it.

Chris Nahr

11-26-2006, 02:33 AM

Mehrunes

11-26-2006, 03:03 AM

So I just cleared a labyrinthine warehouse full of crates and thugs, only to be sent to a two-story villa full of invisible thugs.

Please, someone tell me that this is the low point of the entire game, and it's going to get better soon. :(

Oh definitely. I swear the developers must've been asleep during that part. Although the action gets better soon, it takes alot of buildup for the story to really get better.

Chris Nahr

11-26-2006, 03:36 AM

That's good to hear. My other big annoyance right now -- is there some trick to improve the load & save times? "Quick" saves take like five seconds (blocking the game and switching the screen for maximum irritation), and loading takes anywhere from 5 to 30 seconds. That's simply ridiculous for those tiny areas.

On one hand, the slowness is understandable when you look at the ginormous size of the save files -- each current save is over 30 MB, even though the biggest component files are saved with ZIP compression! On the other hand, I can't understand why the files would have to be so amazingly gigantic in the first place.

ydejin

11-26-2006, 03:38 AM

So I just cleared a labyrinthine warehouse full of crates and thugs, only to be sent to a two-story villa full of invisible thugs.

Please, someone tell me that this is the low point of the entire game, and it's going to get better soon. :(

You've got one more set of annoying levels filled with Orcs. Then the whole game starts opening up and gets better and better. You just need to persevere a bit longer, there are parts of Chapters 2 and 3 which achieve true RPG greatness.

Major Malphunktion

11-26-2006, 04:49 AM

Piemax2

11-26-2006, 07:08 AM

Yes, after the orc fort I liked the campaign a lot, espcially the cinematic battle, though the ending was a disappointment. And the load times were pretty excruciating for me, too.

caesarbear

11-26-2006, 11:04 AM

On one hand, the slowness is understandable when you look at the ginormous size of the save files -- each current save is over 30 MB, even though the biggest component files are saved with ZIP compression! On the other hand, I can't understand why the files would have to be so amazingly gigantic in the first place.
It's saving the entire module file. Basically when you play NWN/NWN2 it's making a copy of the selected module and all changes happen to that keeping things self contained and independent. It has some obvious downsides like slowness, and if a module gets patched it won't fix your save game.

stusser

11-26-2006, 11:51 AM

I don't believe that's correct for the official campaign, only separate modules.

caesarbear

11-26-2006, 12:35 PM

I don't believe that's correct for the official campaign, only separate modules.
It's the same system. The official campaign is a module, or rather a bunch of different modules. What's new in NWN2 is the Campaign mechanics which makes tying a bunch of modules together easier. I haven't fully explored it yet but there are no drastic differences to how it goes about using and saving a mod. The advantage of a series of campaign mods is that patched content will take effect once you move to a different module.

worm

11-26-2006, 09:20 PM

Has anyone had trouble with the NPC quests? Is there any sort of order in which I should sort them out? The only one I feel I resolved was Khelgar. Jerro and Zhajenwhatever seem to exist just to be grilled for dialog. Is there any point where I should work towards following the various quests? Which should be wrapped up prior to chapters 2 or 3? It seems like there was something to do with Casavir but I messed that up.