Dark Messiah: Kick it. Kick it. Kick it.

[Tom Chick]

The Adventures of Sir Kicksalot Deathboot in the Land of the Conspicuously Placed Spike Racks. (http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3154749)

[Kunikos]

What a lovely spice rack, does it have cinnamon? No? Only bloody chunks? Ohhhh... spike....

[Lazy Shiftless Bastard]

Does anyone else have trouble viewing 1up? Maybe it's because I'm use IE or my security settings are too high, but I can't ever get anything on it to load anymore. Nevertheless view source lets me read the review, which is a great read by the way.

[Guido Jones]

I've always had problems viewing 1up - it's really really slow. It timed out twice while I was trying to view Tom's review.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Does anyone else have trouble viewing 1up? Maybe it's because I'm use IE or my security settings are too high, but I can't ever get anything on it to load anymore. Nevertheless view source lets me read the review, which is a great read by the way.

It's been loading exceptionally slowly for me today, so it's not just you.

Troy

[Tom Chick]

I have the same problems with 1up. :( It's like, 'Hey, remember what the internet was like on dialup?'

-Tom

[HRose]

Lol, I sort of envisioned all that just by reading comments (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=786811&postcount=156) on this forum ;p

[Kunikos]

The most powerful weapon in the game is a pair of hobnailed steel-toe boots, apparently.

[EviLore]

You'll have to install Valve's Steam and you'll have to power through some absurdly long loading times. No, your system hasn't crashed

Multiplayer load times are only a few seconds with textures on medium. 90%+ reduction compared to high. And yes, that's absurd in its own right.

[wumpus]

Your simple boot regularly upstages magic, stealth, archery, and combat, all of which are represented in the basic skill tree. No matter which "class" you choose, it will behoove you to play a Kicklord.
I LOLED

[scharmers]

This game, when pieced apart, doesn't have a lot going for it. It's unstable as hell if you deign to set its options above some nebulous level that's appropriate to your PC, it's Yet Another Generic Fantasy, there's really no other viable build that warrior-archer in SP, kicking is way overplayed and obvious, you can see the demon girl's kitty cat in the cutscenes (...no, wait, that's OK I guess)...

...but boy is this game fun. I think it's one of those games where the sum of the whole is way, way greater than its parts. It certainly doesn't deserve a 40%.

[Taranis]

I have the same problems with 1up. :( It's like, 'Hey, remember what the internet was like on dialup?'

-Tom
And for those of us that are still on Dial-up trying to load 1up is well, shall we say impossible! Come on 1up this is really pissing me off, update that server from 1987 I'm missing all Tom's reviews, you don't want me to start reading reviews on GAMESPOT do you????????

[Rob Beschizza]

That was an excellent review. I just loved it. Perfect tone in response to this game's contrivances.

I will say, though, that I had extremely unpleasant problems with it: when it ran, it looks all solarized and messed up. After I told Steam that the devs had admitted the problems and there was no patch available, I got my money back.

This was very, very good customer service and I'll be buying something else from Steam to reward them for it. But I don't know what.

[Tom Chick]

It certainly doesn't deserve a 40%.

Heavy sigh. (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=789652&postcount=269)

-Tom

[Vincent_GC]

Heavy sigh. (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=789652&postcount=269)

-Tom

Probobly the best example given why number systems are very unreliable and innacurate in PC game reviews.

Nothing against the reviewers themselves, it's the system that they have to deal with.

[chet]

But tom, that is an excuse right? It is like a magazine saying a game was 10 stars, only to find out it is a 1-1000 star scale. In the context of what is expected by people, you just gave the game a worse rating than a bunch of complete crap. Looking at this page is just confusing.

http://www.1up.com/do/sortIndex?ct=REVIEW&p=PC

I am not arguing the quality of the game, but when you decide (the site) to change the accepted scoring values, it isn't the viewers fault for assuming your review is amazingly negative, it is the site's fault for changing things up on the readers and not explaining it very well. Looking at the site, the scores seem to be a "mixed bag" of using the new system and old. And mixing in CGW reviews which still use the old system and 1up reviews? It is hardly the fault of the viewers that they complain about the numbers.

Chet

[scharmers]

Looking at this page is just confusing.


Yeah, Darkstar One is 30% better than Dark Messiah ;P

[Tom Chick]

I don't mean this to sound like a dodge, but, well, I'm going to have to dodge that point, chet. It's an editorial issue and as a freelancer, I can only go by what I was told.

My editors have been very clear that they want to use the full 1-10 scale, where a 5 is a middling game. When I was asked if I was sure I wanted to give Dark Messiah a 4 (someone even joked that fans of the game were going to be really mad!), I replied that I only wanted to give it a 4 if they were serious about using the entire 1-10 scale. I said that if they were going to use the typical 7-9 range, I'd rather give it a 6.something.

A few days later, the review goes up with the 4. I hope this means Ziff is serious about using the full 1-10, because as much as I don't care about ratings, I'd at least like to kinda know what I'm aiming at when I pick my number. :)

-Tom

[chet]

I wasn't beating on you for it tom, but 1up. I just think deciding one day to change your scale for some vague reason is broken and will lead to issues like those discussed here.

[stusser]

You're not kidding, that page of ratings is confusing as hell. Pac-man world rally is rated higher. Trying not to derail this into another "what rating scheme is best" thread, so I'll just say that it would behoove 1up to have a very clear link to "how we score" next to every rating for the new year or two.

...

OK, I've got to say it-- 1-10 scales are silly, confusing, and most importantly, arbitrary. Please, don't reply to this. I'm sorry! So sorry!

[Erik]

It seems like 1up's descriptions for the scale are kind of borked. 6 is "playable". 5 is "competent". 4 is "broken". Maybe 4 should be "playable" and 6 should be something a touch more positive than "competent".

[RichVR]

Or people could get the idea of what the reviewer means from the review that he/she wrote and ignore the stupid number rating? But wait, that would mean that people would need to have reading comprehension. Sorry. numb3r2 FTW !!11onewon!

[Vincent_GC]

Or people could get the idea of what the reviewer means from the review that he/she wrote and ignore the stupid number rating? But wait, that would mean that people would need to have reading comprehension. Sorry. numb3r2 FTW !!11onewon!

I totally agree with you 100%

Even better than a number at the end should be a brief summary of the article along with the reviewer's overall thoughts and short, concise bullet points of the pro's/cons of the game.

I guess numbers just look pretty.

[roguefrog]

Ok, how bad is this game I just bought? Did I just buy shit in a box? Is the combats worse than Oblivion?!

I would find out for myself, but it runs really bad on my 5 year old rig. It's first in line after I upgrade.

[Mehrunes]

Ok, how bad is this game I just bought? Did I just buy shit in a box? Is the combats worse than Oblivion?!

I would find out for myself, but it runs really bad on my 5 year old rig. It's first in line after I upgrade.

Did your texture setting default to high? If so, for the love of god, put it on medium. I think high is supposed to be a joke by valve or arkane.

[wildpokerman]

So 6 on the 7-9 scale still isn't very encouraging. Is that 2 stars or 1.5? I get confused.

Anyway thanks for saving me money, sometimes being a reviewer is probably like being on the first boat to hit Omaha Beach.

Edit: Oh yeah and visceral was 2004 wasn't it? Shouldn't we all be saying "next gen graphics" by now?

[Marcus]

Just by playing the Demo I figured the game would be shit. I think I got about 10 min in to it before I jumped over something and promptly fell through the world and had to restart.

[DennyA]

Wow. I missed that rating system. That's screwed up. If the wanted to get off the 7-9 scale, the should have gone for a 1-5 star setup. Doing a 1-10 scale that doesn't, well, scale to anyone else's is just confusing and annoying, and does a disservice to the reader.

[Igor Muravyev]

I don't get how you only gave the multiplayer one paragraph. If it has tactical potential, can't you expand on it a little more?

And plus, what happened to reviewing for Yahoo Games?

(I don't have DMoM&M yet but wanted to buy it until I read this)

[JamesL]

Ok, how bad is this game I just bought? Did I just buy shit in a box? Is the combats worse than Oblivion?!

I would find out for myself, but it runs really bad on my 5 year old rig. It's first in line after I upgrade.

I'd give it about an eight or a nine. Very arcadey, very nice looking, lite-rpg fun. The combat feels like what Oblivion was trying to do but just couldn't get right.

[KieronGillen]

A few days later, the review goes up with the 4. I hope this means Ziff is serious about using the full 1-10, because as much as I don't care about ratings, I'd at least like to kinda know what I'm aiming at when I pick my number. :)

I wish you luck. I remember one time I was working for somewhere, and there was a stated desire to move marking a notch harsher. I went ahead and did it, and no fuck else did noticeably. Verrrry annoying.

KG

[HRose]

I'm the only one who considered the review coherent?

You can agree or not on the evaluation, but he gave pretty solid reasons why he didn't like the game, from technical problems, to the level and game design.

Imho, a game with those kinds of technical and design issues shouldn't be saved, even if many players are disposed to close both eyes because at the end the combat is fun in a cheesy way.

Saying (quoting from the other thread):

how you deal with enemies is entirely up to you and if you take the easy cheesy way you will miss a good deal of entertainment imo.
... is utterly stupid. Because it's just a declaration that the game design in this game is terrible. It's like if in a RTS game you can win each match by just spamming a default unit and then other players tell you that the game is fun and challenging if you impose a limit on yourself so that the strategy isn't overpowered.

It doesn't matter if you have hundreds of possible moves if you can play the game from start to end using just one.

He commented about the poor level design (guards standing next to exploding barrels), he commented about the technical problems that crippled this game.

At the end it's all about what you are willingly to tolerate to enjoy some fun at the bottom of the barrel.

[John Sansker]

Seriously, a 4 is actually quite generous.
Personally,I think I've spent more time staring at the load screen than actually playing the game.( and I'm running the reccomended system specs, P4 3.2Ghz, 1 GB ram, 7800GTX, Audigy 2)
I mean shit, 10GB install, and I still have to wait for stuff to load?
Huh WTF?
The last game that had this much load time I believe was Postal 2, and it got a bad score for this I think, as well as some other things.(but at least that game never crashed when I was playing it)
Even more fun, when staring at the loading screen for 5 minutes and the cursor arrow appears in the middle of everything, you realize, it has crashed!!
Guess what?
Yepper, you get to LOAD the game again and stare at the loading screen some more!!

Ooooh, looky a "scripted" and time chase sequence with a jumping puzzle to boot. (weren't jumping puzzles "old" when Half Life came out?, and then Tron 2.0 added the timed jumping puzzle)
Here Dark Messiah of Horrific Shit adds them all together again!!!
Hooray!!!!
Wow, somebody tranq my ass before I explode from having too much fun.
Yeah buddy, the Limited Edition was certain worth my $60.

[Jason McMaster]

http://www.1up.com/do/userReviewDetail?cId=3154749&r=7579422&ct=REVIEW&gid=3142946

MAYBE SOMEONE HERE (AHEM *TOM*) HAS A VENDETTA AGAINST THE GAME!

JERK!

[JamesL]

I'm the only one who considered the review coherent?

Eh, it's coherent, I just disagree.

First of all, kicking isn't that good - which seems to be the entire core of the article. I mean, sure, if they come at you one at a time and you still have stamina and make sure to aim carefully you could probably kill everyone with kicks if they line up perfectly against some sort of spike wall or something, but it's not the end all be all of attacks. While it's instrumental to use in battle, it's instrumental to use in combination with another weapon, and especially in battles with multiple people (which happens a lot) you'll be using kicking a lot less simply because you don't have the stamina.

Secondly, while a pure stealth class is not entirely viable, stealth is incredibly useful very often - it's more of a role that supports your other skills.

Archery, as well, is not nearly as useless as Tom claims. Again, it's a support skill - if you're jumping in this game to be Robin Hood, the brave archer, you're going to be disappointed. Sometimes you're going to need to use the bow, sometimes you're going to need to use the sword, sometimes you're going to need to use stealth. This is not an inherently bad thing.

[Skipper]

Thanks for the review Tom. It saved me a purchase. Truly I could care less about the numeric value, it was the wording of how the game played that spelled it out. There's too many genre-lite games out there already, I'm more of a traditionalist.

For me anything that's going to add (of Might and Magic) to it's title and not be a kick ass RPG or kick ass turn based strategy is bargain bin fodder anyway. They worked hard on it I'm sure, I'm just not their audience.

[Becoming]

Saying (quoting from the other thread):

... is utterly stupid. Because it's just a declaration that the game design in this game is terrible.

I agree you can exploit it if you work at it Hrose, but honestly you're just limiting your own enjoyment by doing so and that's what I'd really call "stupid". Paying fifty dollars to basically ignore a boatload of combat options to hump a design flaw while determined to ignore other viable options doesn't really strike me as a time well spent and that's where my opinion differs from a lot of the reviews.

You can apparently find some of the most powerful gear in Morrowind and become damn near invincible in well under an hour I'm told if you know where and how to do so. Does that mean you have to do it or would for some reason want to do it? Does that make the entire game crappy? No it doesn't, and that's the same idea here even though the games in question are very different.

If someone goes out of their way to become godly in Morrowind in no time flat and this makes it boring to them, is that the game's fault or Bethesda's fault for providing the tools to go do so even if they didn't intend that you should so early?

I'm sorry if a normal gaming Joe's opinion seems dumb to a wannabe designer, but there garsh I guess I must be plain silly to play a game to play instead of over analyzing every little bit and byte.

[Kevin Grey]

Personally,I think I've spent more time staring at the load screen than actually playing the game.( and I'm running the reccomended system specs, P4 3.2Ghz, 1 GB ram, 7800GTX, Audigy 2)

Setting textures to Medium *drastically* improves load times and isn't much of a visual hit. Load times on Medium for me aren't any worse than most games out there. And the rest of my performance is great at 1280x1024 (P4 3.0Ghz, 7800GS).

[Gordon Cameron]

If someone goes out of their way to become godly in Morrowind in no time flat and this makes it boring to them, is that the game's fault or Bethesda's fault for providing the tools to go do so even if they didn't intend that you should so early?

I think you can chalk it up to a design flaw, with the admission that the more open ended a game is (and Morrowind was very open ended), the harder it is to plug up all possible exploits without constraining the very open endedness that is a selling point for the game. I'd think striking the right balance would be easier to do in a game like DMOM&M which is presumably smaller and more linear. But, I haven't played it so what do I know.

I agree that such a design flaw doesn't inherently make the game worthless, but neither should it be glossed over by reviewers. The amount of emphasis it should be given is the question I suppose.

Personally, I seem less inclined to zone in like a laser beam on the "optimal" path of a given videogame than some people are. So when there are possible exploits, I often don't even notice them. (Except fhe chameleon suit in Oblivion, but I made that after winning the main quest so it almost seemed more like a cool reward than anything else, and I still enjoy booting up that game to revel in my own omnipotence from time to time.)

[Becoming]

To me the enjoyment is in the playing, not in doing the easiest repeated action you possibly can to get to the end. If you are that sort of player then clearly it isn't a game for you. It's less about getting to the end than the journey itself since the story isn't that spectacular.

My only real beef with some of the reviews is that they could really turn off some people to the game that would really like it and thereby be doing a real disservice to those people where this game is concerned. It's not the best thing since sliced bread, but it's certainly above average and still the best first person melee combat I've ever played by far.

[Gordon Cameron]

To me the enjoyment is in the playing, not in doing the easiest repeated action you possibly can to get to the end.

Sure, but I do think it's fair to expect that when you give players a game that has a goal and that they are meant to "win," that they will tend to seek the optimal path. I don't know if kicking is as overpowered as Tom says it is, but supposing that it were, then I could understand the argument that that is a design flaw. Of course a player could stand back and say, "Hmm! I need to stop using this technique as it amounts to an exploit, and is diminishing my enjoyment of the game." The likely response to that would be, in a really well designed game the player shouldn't have to make that decision.

[Becoming]

It is able to be abused, but to me it's just as much work to do so as it is to get creative and actually feel rewarded when you win a fight. There's always a danger of that when you give the player so many options to do things how they choose, instead of exactly how the developers wanted. Whether or not you choose to abuse that is up to you and probably says a lot about how you play games in a general way.

I never said it wasn't an issue, just that it's overblown and needn't be as big a deal as it's made out to be in some cases. This is one of those cases where personal tastes are a huge part of it and it's certainly not everyone's idea of entertaining. Good thing there's a decent demo of it available. Imagine that only better and more of it and that's exactly what you get. Power gamer types that habitually zone in and abuse flaws in the system because they just can't help themselves will not find much enjoyment here.

I personally wish it were more difficult and the flaws less pronounced, but I'm willing and able to enjoy the good parts that are already there.

[mono]

...it's certainly above average and still the best first person melee combat I've ever played by far...

WRONG!

Heretic 2 and the staff/ w various powerups. Oh, what joy.

[Naked]

Heretic II was third-person, but yeah, it still has, IMHO, the most satisfying melee combat I've seen in a PC game. It was visceral, versatile, easy to control and, especially once you'd upgraded, damn spectacular to look at too.

Right until my P400/Voodoo2 SLI combo went the way of the dodo (or thrift store) a few weeks back, I had Heretic II installed. Quie possibly my favorite Raven (and Quake II engine, for that matter) game.

Dark Messiah is alright, I'm plugging through it in 45 minute chunks, but nothing so far has really grabbed me or compelled me to keep playing. I didn't go in with huge expectations, so it isn't exactly a let down, but after the first (post-tutorial/scripted intro) rush of "dood, the combat is awesome" it kind of just bogged down into more of the same. Hopefully it opens up a bit the more you progress.

[HRose]

I loved the initial tutorial. It's like the rest of the game was made by someone else, the graphic becomes quite bland, the technical problems show up and you keep moving between tight corridors that don't give you enough space fight.

And I'm finding the lack of light even more annoying that Doom3.

[Becoming]

I'm sure they don't give you a spell to see in the dark at the very beginning of the game for shits and giggles, but what do I know.

[KristianV]

I came, I saw, I kicked the shit out of everyone I met. Then I stopped playing. In a nod to the Pulp song "Common People", no matter how bad it got I could always call upon the big daddy of death; my own booted foot, at the press of a single button.

[ElGuapo]

You guys realyl think the kick is all powerful? On the levels like the cliffside one, ok. But what about:

(spoilers)

The tombs after the Spider Statue? All the zombies? The ghouls? All the fights against spiders? The fight with the orc chief?

(end spoilers)


Kicking will not help you in any of those situations. If it does, you have to carefully manuever/trick the enemy into stepping near a ledge or lining them up with spikes. It's not like they just stand near the spikes and go "kick me!".

I'm finding kicking less and less helpful as the game goes on. And when I kick, it's always to back my opponent off or manuver them. Rarely do I kick spam, as it does no damage and doesn't work.

[mono]

Heretic II was third-person...

Oh yeah, you're correct. However, the camera placement in Heretic 2 caused the perspective to appear 1st person so often, that I'm not entirely off base.

[Matt Perkins]

I haven't played the game yet, but the first thing I noticed when I read that review is that the 7-10 scale was broken. :)

If I were 1UP I'd put a disclaimer on the top of all of their reviews for awhile if they really changing that around. And change the 4 from being "broken" to something else. The game doesn't sound broken after reading the review, just middle of the line with potential online fun...

just me two cents.

[Thrag]

If you want to have fun with this game, you will have fun. If you want to nitpick, you can find plenty to nitpick. If you go in expecting a full blown RPG with classes that play 100% different (i.e. you never have to melee as a magic using character) you will be disapointed. If you expect something other than the first person action game this is, you'll probably be disapointed too. In the various negative reviews out there aside from real problems like the technical issues some are having I'm getting more of a tone of failed expectations than anything else.

Someone commented about RTS games and how much fun would they be if you could just spam one unit type and win the game. Isn't that how 99% of RTSs play? I recently played Dark Crusade and loved it, though frankly I could win every level building nothing but stealthsuits if I wanted to do so.

[Matthew Gallant]

I came, I saw, I kicked the shit out of everyone I met. Then I stopped playing. In a nod to the Pulp song "Common People", no matter how bad it got I could always call upon the big daddy of death; my own booted foot, at the press of a single button.
From the album "Non-Different Class"

She came from Ubi she had a thirst for carnage
She studied orcs at St. Tolkien's College
That's where I
Caught her eye
She told me that her dad had two feet
I said "In that case I'll have a pint of scotch neat."
She said fine.
And in thirty seconds time

She said, I want to shoot like common messiahs
I want to chop however common messiahs hew
I want to cast like common messiahs
I want to hide with common messiahs like you

Well what else
Could I do
I said, "I'll see what I can do."

I took her to the sewer level
I don't know why but it had to start somewhere
So it started
There

I said, "Pretend you've got no tarsus."
She just laughed and said, "You're a goofus."
I said "Yeah? Well I don't see anyone else bipedal in here."
Are you sure...

You want to shoot like common messiahs
You want to quicksave every minute or three
You want to cast like common messiahs
You want to slash with common messiahs like me

But she didn't grok the facts
And she just smiled and swung my axe

Roll a rock to score a gank
Cut a rope or freeze a plank
Smoke some trolls and get some loots
Pretend you never had a boot
But still you'll never get it right
Cos when you're in a nasty fight
Watching HP fall like rain
If you kicked your foot you could
End the pain

You'll never play like common messiahs
You'll never do what common messiahs do
You'll never die like common messiahs
You'll never see a screen, without a shoe
And stab or use a spell
Because there's no arrows availa-bell

Laugh along with the common messiahs
Laugh along even though they're laughing at you
And the stupid things you do
Because you think that stealth is cool.

[McBain]

I recently played Dark Crusade and loved it, though frankly I could win every level building nothing but stealthsuits if I wanted to do so.

<Derail>

Oh come on, if you're going to bring up unit spamming in DC, at least bring up units you can win by spamming. Like Flayed Ones.


And speaking of Common People, what mention of that song is complete without discussion of the hilarious William Shatner / Joe Jackson cover? Almost as good as the spoken word "Mr. Tambourine Man."

</Derail>

[Thrag]

<Derail>

Oh come on, if you're going to bring up unit spamming in DC, at least bring up units you can win by spamming. Like Flayed Ones.

</Derail>

You can win in single player by spamming just about any unit. For minor battles I just produced a load of stealthsuits and sent them out with the commander. Never had any problem winning. I sure that wouldn't fly in multiplayer.

[RepoMan]

Wow, somebody tranq my ass before I explode from having too much fun.

:-D Beautiful.

[Shawn_Elliott]

I wish you luck. I remember one time I was working for somewhere, and there was a stated desire to move marking a notch harsher. I went ahead and did it, and no fuck else did noticeably. Verrrry annoying.

KG

Any serious complications, I suspect, arise from fusing CGW/GFW with 1UP. CGW/GFW drives the point (scale) home in its reviews opener. Tom's score here is very much in line with this (also taken from CGW/GFW): http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3154649

For what it's worth, EA has expressed its concern with the perceived "harshness" of this score.

[Ryan Scott]

Heavy sigh. (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=789652&postcount=269)

-Tom

Seriously. (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=790511&postcount=312)

Ryan Scott
Reviews Editor, Games for Windows: The Official Magazine

[Igor Muravyev]

I liked the review too, I just wish people would talk about multiplayer more since that's supposed to be the only good part of the game?

[JamesL]

Multiplayer is a spamfest. That said, it's amazingly fun.

[John Sansker]

Setting textures to Medium *drastically* improves load times and isn't much of a visual hit. Load times on Medium for me aren't any worse than most games out there. And the rest of my performance is great at 1280x1024 (P4 3.0Ghz, 7800GS).

Thanks, I'll hafta give this a try later if I can't get my hands on a copy of NWN2. ;)
I'm running the game at 1024x768, are the high textures really that intensive?
(I'm still running a 19" CRT for a monitor and any higher res just doesn't look right on it)

[AndrewPf]

It seems like 1up's descriptions for the scale are kind of borked. 6 is "playable". 5 is "competent". 4 is "broken". Maybe 4 should be "playable" and 6 should be something a touch more positive than "competent".

Yeah, I've never liked our descriptions -- thankfully, when our new page layout gets updated in a month or so, they'll be gone.

[Damien Neil]

It doesn't matter if you have hundreds of possible moves if you can play the game from start to end using just one.

So, you've got a skateboard and long path filled with quarter pipes, railings, curbs, and other fun obstacles to jump off of / vault over / grind on. And you hop on the board and coast down to the other end without doing a single trick, and complain that you didn't have any fun.

Sandbox-on-rails really is the best description for DMoM&M. It isn't about getting to the end; getting to the end is easy. It's about what you do along the way.

[Thrag]

I liked the review too, I just wish people would talk about multiplayer more since that's supposed to be the only good part of the game?

I loved the single player, but the multiplayer was a little rough around the edges. It grew on me a little as I played, but it's not nearly as fun as the feel of the single player combat.

[HRose]

The multiplayer definitely requires VERY LOW latency to be playable.

The biggest problem is that they seem to have forgotten to add range to the melee, it's really, really hard to hit something, and quite frustrating. Basically all the elements that make the SP stand out (physics, special moves, reactionary combat etc..) are missing from MP. So it's completely different when it comes to the gameplay.

Sounds and animations are *terrible*, while some of the arenas are quite impressive, well designed and fun to play (even if sometimes not simple to navigate).

It's fun because of the different classes you can play, but it's quite simple and a bit boring in the longer term.

[HRose]

You know what would be fun?

Take the arenas out of the MP and use them with SP combat and bots.

I actually miss an "arcade" mode that takes the SP combat and throws you into an arena with endless monster spawning and some health regen. I mean, pure hack&slash without downtimes or loading screens every two steps.

[Vincent_GC]

You know what would be fun?



Co-operative Multiplayer for the SP campaign would be the shiznit

I'd pick it up in a heartbeat.

[JamesL]

So, you've got a skateboard and long path filled with quarter pipes, railings, curbs, and other fun obstacles to jump off of / vault over / grind on. And you hop on the board and coast down to the other end without doing a single trick, and complain that you didn't have any fun.

Sandbox-on-rails really is the best description for DMoM&M. It isn't about getting to the end; getting to the end is easy. It's about what you do along the way.

This is a pretty faulty analogy. By not doing any tricks at all, you're not beating the skateboard game the same way getting to the end in Dark Messiah. Beating a skateboard level means doing tricks until you have the score the devs decide. Beating an action game is simply getting to the end. You really just can't compare the two in this context.

[Damien Neil]

Would it make a difference if the skateboard game went "DING! YOU HAVE WON!" when you rolled to the end?

Again: If the only thing you care about is beating the game with machine-like efficiency, then I'll agree that DMoM&M isn't very good. But, frankly, that seems like watching a movie on fast-forward and complaining that there wasn't any decent dialogue.

[Wheelkick]

...you know, Tom, the AI in Halo is named Cortana

This Cortona wannabe is a foil to the girl-next-door mage chick ...

[Klaatu]

...you know, Tom, the AI in Halo is named Cortana...you know, Wheelkick, sentences end in periods.

I give this thread a 4 out of 10.

[HRose]

By not doing any tricks at all, you're not beating the skateboard game the same way getting to the end in Dark Messiah.
Actually in skateboard games (since the one on the Commodore 64 that I played too much) you HAVE TO learn and use all the tricks if you want to win the competitions.

Doesn't Tony Hawk work like that? ;)

[JPR]

Are you talking about Skate Or Die? Goofy foot for life.

[moss_icon]

...you know, Wheelkick, sentences end in periods.

I give this thread a 4 out of 10.

i'd have liked it more, but i skipped over every post really quickly so i could get to the end.

[GlaziusFalconar]

This is a pretty faulty analogy. By not doing any tricks at all, you're not beating the skateboard game the same way getting to the end in Dark Messiah. Beating a skateboard level means doing tricks until you have the score the devs decide. Beating an action game is simply getting to the end. You really just can't compare the two in this context.
...you know, I hear these things called "skateboards" may actually exist in real life, and what's more, other people build places called "skate parks" where there might be arranged various trickable objects around a given path.

I'm pretty sure you can get out of the skate park without scoring 25,000 points.

--GF

[HRose]

Are you talking about Skate Or Die? Goofy foot for life.
Nope, this one (http://www.lemon64.com/games/details.php?ID=30) :)

[JPR]

Oh yeah, I played 720, too, but it made less of an impression on me. Both fine 1987 releases.

[Winifred]

What a fun review! I had no interest in the game before, but now I'm sort of interested, just because it sounds like a train wreck, and those can be fun if you bring popcorn and expect it to be horrible.

[MikeSofaer]

I don't really find it to be bad design if the player can screw up his own experience if he wants to.

Suppose you had a game that starts with the foozle in a big spiky box, and you can press a button to squash it, and a button that lets it go. If you squash it you win the game! But the gameplay all happens if you let it go.

Would such a game be broken?

[JamesL]

...you know, I hear these things called "skateboards" may actually exist in real life, and what's more, other people build places called "skate parks" where there might be arranged various trickable objects around a given path.

I'm pretty sure you can get out of the skate park without scoring 25,000 points.

--GF

...If you're trying to insult me, you could've just said "your momma" and I would have had to read a lot less.

HAVE TO learn and use all the tricks if you want to win the competitions.

Doesn't Tony Hawk work like that? ;)

I've never beaten a Tony Hawk's game in full, but all the ones I've played could've theoretically been beaten if you just manualed over and over again for about a half-hour. But I haven't even played some of the recent ones - don't quote me on that. :)


Would it make a difference if the skateboard game went "DING! YOU HAVE WON!" when you rolled to the end?

Yes. Surely you agree that a victory state is very different from a fail-state (the exact oppisite, in fact).

[Abbaon]

Secondly, while a pure stealth class is not entirely viable, stealth is incredibly useful very often - it's more of a role that supports your other skills.
The class is more than viable. You can stealth kill about half your opponents without much difficulty, and maybe another quarter with running and hiding, but you needn't bother. A purely stealthy build (with Stealth 3, Burglary, and no other skills) can use all but one pair of daggers, including the Gutting "Kriss" hidden in Chapter 1, which do as much damage as any weapon you find before Chapter 5. They'll get you through to the Shadowsteel daggers at the start of 7, which can see you through the game. The Dragonfangs in 9 make the endgame a walkover. I played on hard, autosaves only, no ring of regen, no Xana after getting my equipment back, daggers only apart from a bowshot to aggro a Pao Kai, and still finished with more health stuff than any of my other gimped builds. Died in combat less than a dozen times. Contrast this with a mage, who needs Melee Combat to use the better staves and can't one-shot anything.

[KristianV]

I must say I'm really liking all the insane suppositions some of you are making to prove points here. Skateboard game analogies, then skateboard parks in real life, then foozles in spiky boxes. What?

[GlaziusFalconar]

I must say I'm really liking all the insane suppositions some of you are making to prove points here. Skateboard game analogies, then skateboard parks in real life, then foozles in spiky boxes. What?
Except for the part where the original analogy wasn't to a skateboard game, but actually to a skateboard park in real life. You can go to a skate park and tool around on some self-directed course without taking any of the opportunities for tricks on the course.

And then you can complain that the skate park isn't fun, and people will laugh at you.

I do agree that it's of dubious relation to DMoMaM, and in fact to game design in general, because there are usually more metrics at work in a game or a skate park than just "how much fun am I having right now".

But the original analogy wasn't about a videogame at all, and got misinterpreted as such.

--GF

[JamesL]

Except for the part where the original analogy wasn't to a skateboard game, but actually to a skateboard park in real life. You can go to a skate park and tool around on some self-directed course without taking any of the opportunities for tricks on the course.

And then you can complain that the skate park isn't fun, and people will laugh at you.

I do agree that it's of dubious relation to DMoMaM, and in fact to game design in general, because there are usually more metrics at work in a game or a skate park than just "how much fun am I having right now".

But the original analogy wasn't about a videogame at all, and got misinterpreted as such.

--GF

Oh jeez. Your analogy was about an actual skate park? My bad.

[Alan Au]

I must say I'm really liking all the insane suppositions some of you are making to prove points here. Skateboard game analogies, then skateboard parks in real life, then foozles in spiky boxes. What?Real-life skateboard parks would be much more interesting with foozles in spiky boxes.

- Alan

[McBain]

Tom, a question for you:

You panned the game for having poorly done lighting and lame aesthetics.

I've been playing this game some more, just got there and... man, the Necromancer's Warrens have gotta be some of the best texture work I've ever seen. Good lighting, too. Can't believe the hate.

P.S. The Spider Temple can suck a big fat dick.

[Tom Chick]

Hmm, I didn't see a question in your post. :)

Necromancer's Warrens meaning the city at the end, after that interminable castle with the glistening walls? Yeah, I guess as far as dungeons go, it was okay. Lots of open spaces and chasms and abysses and all that stuff. Wait, that can't have been called the Necromancer's Warrens. Aren't warrens small tunnels?

I really dug that sort of castle thing built on a cliff (where the giant worm attacks you, I think). At least I liked the view of it you get a couple of times before you're actually climbing around on it. There were some cool vistas. When you're chasing the ghoul, there were a few sort of Gothic looking city/cathedral views.

Umm, what else? Maybe the first view of the temple guarded by the orcs as soon as you've stepped off the boat. And the ship looked cool. But otherwise, Dark Messiah just seemed like a lot of drab dungeons.

I'm no authority on lighting, but I don't really recall being impressed by any of it. Can you think of any examples?

-Tom

[J.theYellow]

I had a lot of hopes for this game when it came out. The demo was buggy as hell, but I hoped (and even mailed Arkane's CEO to express that hope) that the audio/video stuttering issues would be resolved by release.

They weren't. And the opening sequence with the horrible voice acting and the inscrutably simple "newbie dungeon" that I thought was just slapped together for the demo and would be replaced? Yeah, it's pretty much the same thing.

The fun part? In the very very beginning, when your "master" walks out of the darkness to give his little speech about your opening mission?

You can hit F and kick him in the nuts. You won't see your foot, but he staggers back and keeps talking.

[McBain]

You're right, the question disappeared. Silly me.

As far as the lighting comment, they only use cold white lights to illuminate the level I'm thinking of. The pale lighting bleeds away all the color, and for a good chunk of that level, the game is almost black and white. And maybe I'm just a total fuckwit, but I enjoyed that effect.

Also, it could just be that I need a new monitor.

-----------

More specifically, the question I meant to ask (before my quarter to three editing resulted in an unintended deletion) is this:

Which areas did you think were routine/uninspired?

I haven't really encountered any spots that felt like McDungeons yet (I'm almost finished with the game at the moment). Indeed, the very reason I came here to harrass you was because the Necromancer's (whatever you want to call them) felt so much different than the usual "brown stone brick catacomb" bullshit. I'm there thinking "Necromancer's Place? Great, another dipshit who saw the catacombs sequence in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, and then they hit me with *that.* It was like the fantasy equivalent of a medical laboratory. Sort of. Very... austere?

--------------

My main gripe with the game so far is the inconsistency in level design. Initial city area? Awesome. First part of the Spider Temple? Awesome. First appearance of big spiders? Prepare for a few hours of suck.

[SpoofyChop]

Maybe somebody said this already but as soon as I get back to replaying Oblivion I'm totally rolling a custom class named "Kicklord."

:D

[Bezzy]

Hello. I liked this game. I didn't like some of concessions to linearity (Fission Mailed every time the "girl next door" died, or, in a first for video games "gets angry at you") but the combat can be an awful lot of fun.

I liked to sneak, throw an oil jar (which annoyingly don't really throw where you aim, vertically), get a fire-arrow, and set the oil on fire, just as a couple of guards come over to investigate the spillage. Lovely!

I also like the bit where you kick a guy into another guy and they both fall down the stairs. HAAHA. It is like a Buster Keaton/Chuck Norris collaboration!

I am making a game where you can push a thing and that thing pushes another thing, and that pushes another thing, BUT ONLY IF THAT THING IS IN THE WAY! And it also might pull the thing toward the thing if the thing is a bit further away than normal. But that's all I'm saying. I'm like Tim Schafer in that respect. Maybe someone will write a new piece announcing that I'm not announcing anything about my next game (Except that bit about the things... which is sorta, over-use of pronouns, if I'm honest. Atleast, I <i>think</i> it's a pronoun. MattG normally checks my grammar for me.)

Bye!

[scharmers]

You can hit F and kick him in the nuts. You won't see your foot, but he staggers back and keeps talking.

You win the "Toss the Basketball at My Boss' head Deus Ex" Award. Or the "Why Can I Land My F-15 Upside Down" Award, for those who roll it oldschool.

[J.theYellow]

In reality, I was just trying to get out of having to listen to him prattle on, so I started mashing keys at random. Hey, F. Whump. Goddamnit, he's still talking. Only after the first sequence, he had an even longer cinematic, which I was able to skip through, and by so doing I missed the whole exposition about why I have a Cortana/Infolink/invisible Navi in my head talking to me while I'm riding a horse on rails. Then everything went to hell and I had to figure out how not to die while everyone around me was yelling for someone to save them.

[Erlend Grefsrud]

I find myself actually enjoying this, contrary to my expectations. I've only gotten to the third level yet (the mansion), and I've skipped all the (horrific) cutscenes, so I've no idea what's going on, but it's jolly good fun.

The fighting feels solid (although I haven't quite come to grips with it yet), the enemies are actually fun to fight (they try to divert my attention while their buddies circle me. Not sure if it's particularly sophisticated yet, but for now, it's good) and while the level feels very constructed so far, it's not a problem, just something of a missed opportunity. Whenever you manage to kill someone with barrels, chandeliers or something else, you feel like you've figured out what the designer wanted you to do, not like you've been particularly creative. Which doesn't really bother me quite yet.

The fights feel a little bit like FEAR, in a way, with tightly constructed "arenas" in which you duke it out. The sneaking feels a little haphazard, but that's probably because I haven't invested any points in sneaking yet. What might come to bother me is the horrendous, horrendous, TERRIBLE story and voice acting, but if I just skip everything, it's probably not going to impact the experience in any way. So far, I see plenty of Tom's points, as well as Kieron's points. I will probably agree with one of them by the time I'm through with the game ...

So far, so good. We'll see if I'm as impressed in three hours.

Edit: Oh, and I've seen none of the bugs and stuff that people have been moaning about. I've got a GeForce 7900GTO 512MB overclocked to GTX speeds, a Core Duo 2 2.66GHz and 2GBs of RAM. No problems so far. The loading times are steep, but the game itself performs well at everything maxed out in 1280x1024 with 4x FSAA and 8x anisotropic filtering. Maybe I've just been lucky with my hardware configuration?

[McBain]

Alright, after finishing the game and then starting over as a mage/thief type, I know exactly why Tom disliked this game.

Magic in this game fucking sucks.

Stealth in this game sucks.

But the melee combat really is that good.

My suggestion to ANYONE playing this game is as follows: Get Telekinesis and Heal as your magic skills. Maybe get alertness and one point in magic affinity. And then put everything else in Endurance/Melee skills.

[txa1265]

Magic in this game fucking sucks.

Stealth in this game sucks.

But the melee combat really is that good.

But that that doesn't stop the level design and story and characters from sucking THAT BAD. Which they do.

[scharmers]

level design

...is actually pretty striking in some places, like the cliffs. It's pretty pedestrian in others, but not actually odious

story

...cliched and common. And how does this make it worse than the other 99.9% of fantasy games out there? We're still waiting for a story better than Torment, which in the end wasn't much more than a moody potboiler

characters

...see the comments just above

The only remarkable thing about DM is its remarkable ordinariness. It's a tomato soups & grilled cheese sandwich game. The cheese is not american, but a nice cheddar, since the melee combat is fun & in your face

[Erlend Grefsrud]

I just got a new computer, one with only *one* PATA connector and a shitload of SATA ones. That means I have to choose between having my DVD-ROM or old PATA HDDs connected. I'm tired of having to boot down and switch everything around every time I'm going to play anything.

So, can I rip DMoM&M, or is there some fancy copy protection thing going on? Same thing goes for Neverwinter Nights 2, which I'm halfway kind of planning on buying today.

[steve]

So, can I rip DMoM&M, or is there some fancy copy protection thing going on? Same thing goes for Neverwinter Nights 2, which I'm halfway kind of planning on buying today.
You should be able to register your code with Steam, and then you get to re-download the game (which Steam makes you do this, I have no idea).

But at that point, you never need a DVD again, as the game is validated online each time you play it.

[McBain]

But that that doesn't stop the level design and story and characters from sucking THAT BAD. Which they do.

What scharmers said.

I thought the rooftop chase of the ghoul was a great level, as were the clifftop houses. I even liked "In the House of Ashes."

As far as the story and character design, it's not any worse than NWN2's bland uninspired shit, and that game is getting slobbered on from all angles.

[Erlend Grefsrud]

That's because criticizing the Holy House of Black Isle is heresy, regardless of what shit they put out. Bioware is really the only developer out there who does traditional D&D fare the way it was done ten years ago.

They could basically shit in a box, stuff a D20 in there and have people love it to death.

[Kalle]

That's because criticizing the Holy House of Black Isle is heresy, regardless of what shit they put out. Bioware is really the only developer out there who does traditional D&D fare the way it was done ten years ago.

They could basically shit in a box, stuff a D20 in there and have people love it to death.

Criticising actual Black Isle? Yeah, heresy. Criticising the various companies Black Isle spawned? It's so easy it's not even sport.

[Erlend Grefsrud]

Put Obsidian and BioWare together, and you're frighteningly close to what used to be Black Isle. I was just a bit unclear.

[corpsman]

I stopped playin JO to play this and im glad i did. I am only about half way through so far though... I see NONE of the flaws so far people are describing, other then yes, pre-setup areas where you can "push" baddies, but if thats all you got too bad for you. There is more to gaming then finding a weakness in a game, exploiting it to beat the game, then complaining about it. If thats all you do when you play a game, then thats all your giong to get out of it.

[Nut]

They could basically shit in a box, stuff a D20 in there and have people love it to death.

This line is as hilarious as it is accurate. I'm one of these people -- though granted, NWN2 is a really fantastic game if you're a target D&D grognard -- but I'd continue to buy any traditional Infinity Engine-style RPG exclusively for the sake of postponing the death of the subgenre.

Adventure games are dead, and the most important aspects of BG2, PS:T, Icewind Dale 2 and NWN2 were/are the feeling of following a fun and engaging narrative, and these old-school traditional RPGs are really the last surviving bastion of gaming where that exists.

[Kalle]

Put Obsidian and BioWare together, and you're frighteningly close to what used to be Black Isle. I was just a bit unclear.

Bioware was never part of Black Isle, Black Isle was the division of Interplay that handled the publishing of Bioware's Baldur's Gate games. Black Isle also developed games on their own, and of the people who did that the majority ended up at either Troika or Obsidian. And some at Troika then Obsidian, since Troika folded.

[AndrewM]

Somebody needs to sell a compilation of all the SSI gold box games.

[Erlend Grefsrud]

Bioware was never part of Black Isle, Black Isle was the division of Interplay that handled the publishing of Bioware's Baldur's Gate games. Black Isle also developed games on their own, and of the people who did that the majority ended up at either Troika or Obsidian. And some at Troika then Obsidian, since Troika folded.

Ich weiss, but as far as I know BioWare weren't credited for their work on the Baldur's Gate games. I was very young back then (The ripe age of fourteen), but I thought Black Isle was the studio who made all these tremendous games. If something said Black Isle, I'd buy it. They developed Fallout and Fallout 2, while BioWare handled all the Infinity Engine games, right?

Either way, you're perfectly right. It's just that most people associate those games with Black Isle to a greater extent than BioWare. Or was that just me?

[Kirian]

Start up Baldur's Gate II and it says 'Developed by BioWare' on the splash screen, just as a start. BioWare received plenty of credit. Raging Black Isle/Troika zealots ignore that, and the fact BioWare created the Infinity Engine.

It's not just you, but it's not a large majority.

[Quitch]

...while BioWare handled all the Infinity Engine games, right?

Wrong.

Bioware developed the Infinity Engine as well as using it, but it was used in Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2 and Planescape Torment, all of which are Black Isle games.

[Desslock]

Somebody needs to sell a compilation of all the SSI gold box games.

there've been plenty of 'em - Wizardworks sold a collection during the 90s, and more recently Interplay put out a silver edition collection that includes all the gold box games, all of the black box games (eye of the beholder and other first person perspective games), hillsfar, dungeon hack, blood and magic -- all the D&D games prior to the BG series.

You can pick it up here - compatible with windows 98 - dunno about xp.

http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Realms-Archives-Silver-Edition/dp/B00001QEP7/sr=1-8/qid=1163354415/ref=sr_1_8/102-5320191-3637739?ie=UTF8&s=videogames

[AndrewM]

there've been plenty of 'em

Awesome, thanks! Yeah, I should have guessed somebody would have done that already.

[krayzkrok]

I've nearly finished Dark Messiah now and, while I was having a blast in the earlier levels (as a melee fighter) the game is rapidly running out of steam. The main problem seems to be that once I forged the flaming earthsteel sword (or whatever the hell they call it), melee combat becomes one-hit kills with a power strike. It's become ridiculously easy now - wading into areas with several enemies, power striking them all in one hit, seeing them all burst into flames.

I usually play games on Normal difficulty because I figure they balanced it properly for that level, but in DM I think I should have played it on Hard. It's quickly souring what was an otherwise enjoyable game. Chapter 8 was a joke.

My avatar keeps prattling on about this dragon sword he picked up a few levels ago, about how he wants to use it because it's so powerful, yet when he (inevitably, I imagine) does finally get to use it I reckon the whole universe will be cloven in two because it's so overpowered.

[John Reynolds]

I felt the same way playing as a fighter, but my mage is still being challenged quite a bit during the end-game sections (mainly because magic is a bit underpowered, IMO).

Going back to Oblivion's combat sure makes you miss DM's kicking, though. Finished the Knights of the Nine's new faction yesterday and I kept wanting to boot enemies off of ledges.

[Tom Chick]

There's a patch in the works, krazykrok, and among the changelog is rebalancing the difficulty curve at the end of the game. I don't know if it's worth holding off finishing the game, and I'm not sure what they're timetable is, but it's definitely something the developers want to correct.

-Tom

[Rock8man]

Just to echo what John Reynolds said, I was still being challenged all the way through the game as a Mage. The game never lost steam. It was a blast all the way through. A lot of people seem to respond to favorable comments about the Mage with things like "melee combat is where the fun is at in this game". And I just wanted to clarify, that as a mage, you don't avoid melee combat, that's still a really fun part of the game. It's just that you can't use the best weapons in the game, that's all. You use the weaker weapons, but you supplement those with your spells, and that makes the game really challenging and interesting throughout.

[krayzkrok]

Thanks for the heads up Tom, I'll definitely put this on hiatus until then. Despite the flaws in this game, I'm having enough fun to consider starting over with the new patch. Until then Lego Star Wars II is waiting to be installed...!

[HRose]

Patch is out (http://patches.ubi.com/dark_messiah/dark_messiah_1.02_us_uk_fr_it_sp.exe)!

Lots of fixing. This should really address most problems people had with the game. Basically: release day!

************************************************** *********************
SP Patch 1.02 changes and bug fixes
************************************************** *********************

- Combat Difficulty in “Hard” mode is now harder.
PLEASE NOTE: This fix will not take effect in any game saved prior to this patch.

- Added a new "Hardcore" difficulty mode (1 more step beyond “Hard”).

- Re-balanced NPC's strength & health on the second half of the game for all difficulty modes.
PLEASE NOTE: This fix will not take effect in any game saved prior to this patch.

- Added an intermediary “Texture" setting between "Medium" and "High". ("High" could create an overload with some video card memory: so, to offer more scalability, it has been renamed to "Very High" and the "High" option now offers "Medium" textures for the scenery, but "High" textures for the NPCs.)

- No more crashes when NPCs are beheaded (occurred with the “head_link” error message)

- Fixed the black Bink playback problem with GeForce FX video cards

- Fixed FPS drops with GeForce 6800

- No more graphical glitches on GeForce FX cards when player is under water

- No more graphical glitches on GeForce FX cards when player is being hit or is almost dead.

- No more graphical glitches on GeForce FX cards when equipping a Magic Weapon. If you still have trouble, please set GFX Detail to “Low”

- Fixed additional stuttering problems, linked to Expression files being read when they should not be

- Fixed random crashes due to a memory patch in the decal system

- Fixed a crash that could appear very rarely on the Tutorial Map if Phenrig plays his base animation

- Fixed crash on Telekinesis used on a NPC after having frozen and then kicked him

- Fixed a crash at the end of chapter 07 if you equipped telekinesis when the mage was talking to you

- Fixed a showstopper bug with Percy in Chapter 09

- Saved Game system changed to the new Async System to prevent excessive stuttering when the game is auto saving (if you’re still experiencing problems, you may want to disable the Auto Save feature in the “Gameplay” options menu)

- GFX Option is now properly saved

- Variable mat_forcemanagedtextureintohardware is now correctly handled, based on individual PC specs

- Prevent Rope Bow from disappearing under the world surface before getting to it.

- Fixed inconsistency with the way Xana behaves during “City of Flames” chapter events depending on player’s choices

- Fixed a bug where the giant spider was not spawned at all.

- Fixed a bug with some potions being destroyed on map spawn in the “Temple of the Spider” chapter

- GFX Detail level option is now properly translated in the French version

- Avoid user being stuck in the walls while using the Rope Bow

- Final Boss has been re-balanced

- Removed some dev button that could be found behind some walls in the Epilogue

- Fixed the way some objectives were badly managed with the Pao Kai in the last chapter

- Removed an improper “use” flagging on some wooden beams in “Gleam of a Cold Knife”

- NPCs immune to Telekinesis can't be grabbed using Telekinesis Spell when they are in ragdoll behavior

- Arrows that are out of the Game world are now removed properly to prevent framerate from decreasing to zero

- Max number of potions/food you can stack in your inventory is now properly configured

- Prevent the Ghoul script from being broken in some cases (if player used the bow to attack the creature) in “Dead Man's Trail”

- Remove small memory leak on the Particle System (about 100Kb was lost on each load/restart/map change)

- Remove small memory leak on clear value

- Better memory management with BINK playback

- Disabled two auto save points just before change level that could lead to corrupted saved game in Chapter 05

- Prevent a specific mana potion from disappearing from player inventory during Chapter 05

- Spells cast against the player now deal the correct amount of damage based on difficulty mode

- Vampire Knights will now always correctly play their stun animation

- Arantir's health has been increased

- Game will not auto save twice when triggering the final events in the Epilogue

- Added missing precache on Undead spawned by Necromancer Lord

- Fixed excessive virtual memory fragmentation, which led to occasional program crashes.
One change that I wanted is parries to use up some fatigue, so that you are more encouraged to move instead of parry mode being equal to "invulnerable".

I wonder if it can be done easily via mod.

[krayzkrok]

"PLEASE NOTE: This fix will not take effect in any game saved prior to this patch."

Oh crap, I hate it when they do that. I might leave it on hiatus a bit longer then.

...or does that mean it will only take effect after I save a game once the patch is installed? Very ambiguous wording!

[Adam B]

My avatar keeps prattling on about this dragon sword he picked up a few levels ago, about how he wants to use it because it's so powerful, yet when he (inevitably, I imagine) does finally get to use it I reckon the whole universe will be cloven in two because it's so overpowered.

Yeah, that's pretty much what happens at that point.

Personally, I disagree with the "magic and stealth suck" camp on this one. Sure, stealth has a bit of a clunky implementation (will games ever get over the "don't be seen and you clear everything with ease, but get detected and you're totally fucked" design? Ugh, frustrating) and magic probably curves out somewhat less powerful than melee due to the itemization, but I have had an absolute blast playing all three archetypes in DM, as well as some hybrids.

Though it should come to no surprise to anyone that I disagree pretty strongly with Tom's take on the game, brilliant strapline aside ;)

[JM]

yes, pre-setup areas where you can "push" baddies, but if thats all you got too bad for you. There is more to gaming then finding a weakness in a game, exploiting it to beat the game, then complaining about it.

Games like these set up these traps (think Halflife2 with Ravenholm and other areas) - the designers EXPECT you to use the environment exactly as they planned. That's hardly exploiting the system.

[Fugitive]

I got this for free with my new video card.

I wasn't expecting the install to suddenly shift gears from a plain old generic install to a Steam migration, and then it immediately spent a few hours downloading more bits that it needed for the single-player game before I even had a chance to try it. But apparently the pieces it downloaded were actually already there, just in a different directory, according to some FAQs I ran across afterwards. Do I now have a big chunk of redundant data somewhere on my disk? Who knows... Once it was finally patched up, I launched it, and it promptly crashed Steam.

I already feel ripped off.

[Jonathan Blow]

So awesome.

[Dave Long]

I got this for free with my new video card.

I wasn't expecting the install to suddenly shift gears from a plain old generic install to a Steam migration, and then it immediately spent a few hours downloading more bits that it needed for the single-player game before I even had a chance to try it. But apparently the pieces it downloaded were actually already there, just in a different directory, according to some FAQs I ran across afterwards. Do I now have a big chunk of redundant data somewhere on my disk? Who knows... Once it was finally patched up, I launched it, and it promptly crashed Steam.

I already feel ripped off.
So wait, you can't install this game without attaching it to Steam?

[McBain]

You most certainly can. I have DMoM&M installed right now, and it's not on my Steam Games list.

[Fugitive]

So wait, you can't install this game without attaching it to Steam?
As it's installing, you can choose whether or not to install the multiplayer component, and if you do then it registers itself for both single and multi-player under Steam. If you don't, then it's supposed to run by itself like any other standalone game, just without the multiplayer.

Maybe the single-player would have also worked through its start menu option separately from Steam (the redundancy I was wondering about), but I forgot to check at the time.

[Dave Long]

OK. That's more encouraging. I'd like to play multiplayer when I finally get around to installing it (I picked it up for $7.48 at Target), but I don't know if I'm ready to install Steam yet and I'd play through the single player game first anyway.

[McBain]

As it's installing, you can choose whether or not to install the multiplayer component, and if you do then it registers itself for both single and multi-player under Steam. If you don't, then it's supposed to run by itself like any other standalone game, just without the multiplayer.

Maybe the single-player would have also worked through its start menu option separately from Steam (the redundancy I was wondering about), but I forgot to check at the time.

That's weird, I'm pretty sure I installed the multiplayer component, but it's not in Steam. Actually, that might be because I installed Dark Messiah on my new PC before I installed Steam. Shit. Hrm.

[shift6]

...and it promptly crashed Steam.
NO IT DIDN'T.

Report to the showers.

[fuzzyslug]

OK. That's more encouraging. I'd like to play multiplayer when I finally get around to installing it (I picked it up for $7.48 at Target), but I don't know if I'm ready to install Steam yet and I'd play through the single player game first anyway.

Wow, is that a Target sale or a random bargain bin find?

BTW, I think you stop worrying about the Steam ghosts now. It's a nice, solid platform for delivering games. It doesn't take over your PC. It doesn't require the sacrifice of virgins.

[txa1265]

OK. That's more encouraging. I'd like to play multiplayer when I finally get around to installing it (I picked it up for $7.48 at Target), but I don't know if I'm ready to install Steam yet and I'd play through the single player game first anyway.

C'mon Dave, join the 21st Century already ... Steam is excellent!

[Drastic]

Dark Messiah of Might and Kickit also fell into my possession by videocard bundling. The install always hung at the "converting to Steam" bit, to the extent of starting it, wandering off to do something else for a couple hours, and coming back to the "progress" bar at exactly the same spot.

I only ever got it to work by uninstalling what was there, and then installing through Steam itself, since it at least had got as far as registering itself at that point.

[Aleck]

Arx Fatalis is also available for $10 direct from Steam (heard that on a podcast, went to download it).

[txa1265]

Arx Fatalis is also available for $10 direct from Steam (heard that on a podcast, went to download it).

They are really starting to gather up some cool stuff - Deus Ex, VtM: Bloodlines, Arx, etc ... if I didn't already have all of them I'd be all over them!

[ElGuapo]

I'll never buy another game based on the HL2 engine again (Source, right?).

T-t-t-t-t-t--oo s-s-tuttery.

[Ergo]

Really? Weird. I experience very little stuttering on my machine.

[jeffd]

Yeah the stuttering probably is probably you ElG. The Source Engine is one of the better-running engines out there.

[Thrag]

I'll never buy another game based on the HL2 engine again (Source, right?).

T-t-t-t-t-t--oo s-s-tuttery.

For DMoM&M, if you're playing with textures set on high, drop down to medium. The high textures are gigantic and may be a cause of the stuttering.

There were major stuttering problems on initial release that have been patched so if you're not playing via steam which auto-patches your games make sure you grab the patch. I have some recollection that the issue was sound card related (though I might just be making that up) so you might want to also update your sound drivers.

[Quitch]

With the latest DM patches and graphics updates, you're probably fine going with the Steam recommended settings. The original High setting for textures became Very High.

[Xemu]

I downloaded this from Steam when it first came out but forgot all about it -- fired it up tonight.

I don't understand why this game is only at a high 70s metascore... it's a fantastic first person action game with some RPG flavor. Sure, I guess if you were expecting Might & Magic N (13?) you might be disappointed but about 6 chapters in I'm totally digging it. Very visceral and fun.

Good stuff.

[HRose]

I'm still waiting the editor.

Maybe by 2010.

[txa1265]

I don't understand why this game is only at a high 70s metascore...

Neither do I ... that is way higher than it deserves ...

[John Reynolds]

I don't understand why this game is only at a high 70s metascore... it's a fantastic first person action game with some RPG flavor. Sure, I guess if you were expecting Might & Magic N (13?) you might be disappointed but about 6 chapters in I'm totally digging it. Very visceral and fun.

Good stuff.

Couldn't agree more, I played the shit out of this game last fall.

[krayzkrok]

Yes it was a good 10 hours of fun, but it loses steam towards the end, and I suppose it could have been a lot more than it was. If you're going to make a game with the Might and Magic brand name, with a developer that showed such potential in RPGs with Arx Fatalis, you tend to wonder what might have been if they'd aimed a bit higher and fleshed the RPG elements out a lot more. I think a mark in the high 70s is about right to be honest.

[Rock8man]

Yeah, I agree that this game was excellent. I loved it all the way through. My main issue with the game is that I really wish it had more situations where you're severely outnumbered and fighting several enemies at the same time, because that's when the game is at its best. Later in the game, I remember I would purposely get into situations where I would raise the alarm and then run around for a bit, just so that I could purposely fight several people at once. Then I'd use a combinations of spells and melee and kicks to get them all. I would die a lot, but every time the fight turned out differently. That was a blast.

Yeah, I felt that both this and Crackdown didn't get the scores they deserved. Crackdown because it happened to be short, and usually compared to GTA, and this game because...... actually, I don't know exactly why most reviewers didn't like this game more.

[Enduro_Man]

Really? Weird. I experience very little stuttering on my machine.

I had massive -unplayable- amounts of stuttering in this game until I upgraded from 1GB to 2GB of RAM some months ago. A video card upgrade (from a 6800GT to a X1950Pro) also helped, but to a lesser extent.

[unbongwah]

So I picked this up when GoGamer had it on sale a couple of weeks ago and played through about 2/3 of it this weekend. I would say this is a game with major flaws, yet one which I still enjoy thoroughly.

Apart from a few weird bugs (e.g., after finding the Sword of the Disciple, I could neither equip nor drop it, it was just stuck in my inventory) and one crash, I encountered no technical problems. I have a fairly high-end rig (C2D E6600, 8800GTX, 2GB) and was able to play at max settings at 1680x1050 with no performance problems. The AI occasionally baffled me with its idiocy, but otherwise it ran fine.

I was hoping DM would be a medieval Deus Ex and it is...kinda. As others have said, the levels are too linear and the skill system is too unbalanced to provide the kind of freedom I loved in DE. Stealth is rarely useful (though backstabbing is always satisfying), while mages and archers are at a serious disadvantage because of all the monsters who charge you. It's best to approach DM as a linear melee-oriented action game with some archery, magic, and stealth thrown in to mix things up a little. Kicking isn't quite the super-weapon Tom makes it out to be in his review IMHO, but there are definitely way too many opportunities to kick people to insta-death.

So a bit disappointing compared to what I was hoping for. Still, compared to the other Might & Magic action spinoffs, DM is practically gaming gold. Stabbing people in the neck from behind, then kicking their lifeless corpse off a cliff never gets old.

[Xaroc]

I have a fairly high-end rig (C2D E6600, 8800GTX, 2GB) and was able to play at max settings at 1680x1050 with no performance problems.

Fairly high-end? What is faster than that a cray?

[unbongwah]

Fairly high-end? What is faster than that a cray?
A quad-core CPU, 8800GTX SLI, and four gigs of RAM, for one thing. :-)

[Uncle Larry]

I'll never buy another game based on the HL2 engine again (Source, right?).

T-t-t-t-t-t--oo s-s-tuttery.

If you're going to insist on doing EVERYTHING in the hot tub, at least get a better cooling solution for your CPU.

[Igor Muravyev]

A quad-core CPU, 8800GTX SLI, and four gigs of RAM, for one thing. :-)

Objections:
* 4GB of RAM? Vista? Your Nvidia cards are underperforming. XP? You are only using 3GB of RAM. Haha.
* Crays are still better: http://www.cray.com/downloads/Cray_XT4_Datasheet.pdf

That's right, 96 AMD Opterons will kick your ass any day.

[Orinoco]

If you're going to insist on doing EVERYTHING in the hot tub, at least get a better cooling solution for your CPU.

You necro'ed a two month old thread just to make a hot tub joke? I'm sensing hot tub envy here...

[Don Quixote]

Speaking of this game, did anyone else check out the trailer released for it on Xbox Live a few days ago? I knew it was rumored, but I guess now it's official. Looks like I might have to pick it up when it comes out this fall- my PC was way too low-end to run it, and it sounded fun. As a bonus, the trailer said 'newly added multiplayer from the Splinter Cell team'.

[Igor Muravyev]

I was somewhat disappointed with the Dark Messiah multiplayer. You couldn't kick anyone! At all! I mean what the hell? The game is all about kicking.



And the graphics were bad.

[deepruntramp]

I'd buy it on the 360 if its multiplayer stayed active. MP wasn't bad on the PC. Plus, Achievements!

[Gordon_Bleu]

You can buy the Limited Edition of this game for $20 now (ie, GoGamer). You know a game sold very poorly when the special edition hits the bargain bins. lol.

[Rock8man]

So is there some way to make the ho in Dark Messiah (which I grabbed from the 10$ ubi pack) not die instantly on hard mode? Bitch gets tickled by an orc and she's freakin down. I was enjoying the game up until she appeared, but now I just want to uninstall it.

Taken from the bargain thread. Dark Messiah was one of my favorite games of the year at the time of release, but I can't really remember having trouble protecting her Aeon, and I played on hard. Can you stay ahead of her and kill things fast before they get to her? I was playing a magic user/archer/fighter hybrid character, with emphasis on spells. Can you freeze the enemies before they get to her? What is the situation exactly?

[Dave Long]

Still love this thread title. :)

[shang]

Also grabbed this from the Steam sale last weekend, and it's much better than I expected. I'm having a great time with my assassin/mage hybrid.

[Aeon221]

Taken from the bargain thread. Dark Messiah was one of my favorite games of the year at the time of release, but I can't really remember having trouble protecting her Aeon, and I played on hard. Can you stay ahead of her and kill things fast before they get to her? I was playing a magic user/archer/fighter hybrid character, with emphasis on spells. Can you freeze the enemies before they get to her? What is the situation exactly?

I breeze through stuff just fine when she's not around, but, for instance, with the boat part she seemed to inevitably get hit in the fucking face with an arrow and die. Or, as on the temple part, a dragon chases us into the temple, and an orc kicks her retarded self into one of the innumerable spikey wall things and she dies. It's frustrating because I can't heal her or shield her or tell her to stop being a retard (except with the "e" key sit and stay function).

I'm loving the rest of the game. Exploring the levels, especially in the mountain area, is great fun. The collapsing house? Awesome! First time I've ever enjoyed jump puzzles in a game.

Apparently I'm playing on hardcore, not hard. I just assumed it went easy, medium, hard. It'd be more fun if ho wasn't there.

[Rock8man]

I should revisit the game. After I played through it, they apparently made "Hard" mode harder and added a new "Hardcore" mode that's even harder. So it might be interesting to go through the game again on the new difficulty.

On the other hand, I don't remember having a tough time keeping the woman alive, and that doesn't sound like a lot of fun. You'll probably end up using the "e" key to tell her to sit and stay a lot, I'm guessing.

[SpookyKG]

Is there a multiplayer community on this biznitch? I got the game on release and was VERY VERY impressed by the multiplayer but moved on due to some game and wouldn't mind going back... Roomate just picked it up on the steam sale, and I be he'd be interested in MP if I and my brother went back to play.

Also, it is MADDENING to watch him play... he went straight melee combat and plays the "hide behind a shield til you can KICK again" method which is pretty f-ing lame and boring. If you only sparingly use the kick mechanic, you can set up some pretty spectacular fights... playing stealth/magic is about the only way to go.

[Robert Sharp]

I bought this game months ago, and I STILL haven't installed it. It's sitting here on my desk right now, actually. Right next to my keyboard, and it's been there for 2 months, I'd guess (I bought it 6 months ago, I'd say). I really need to PLAY it.

[krise madsen]

I played this about the same time I played Oblivion. It really made Oblivions combat feel rather neutered.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[rei]

The levels were far too small for the amount of loading time and the textures were much too bland compared to Oblivion though. The exposition on the loading screens made it feel more constrained.

[MattKeil]

Yes, if only Bethesda had the foresight to include a kick button.

[unbongwah]

I played this about the same time I played Oblivion. It really made Oblivions combat feel rather neutered.
Yeah, it may sound weird to say this, but DM's combat was so much more fun than Oblivion's, it ruined my ability to enjoy Oblivion.

The levels were far too small for the amount of loading time and the textures were much too bland compared to Oblivion though.
As I said two years ago: DM's a linear action game; Oblivion's an open-ended RPG. Despite the similar settings and first-person view, they have quite different focuses. Might as well compare, say, CoD 4 and Fallout 3.

Yes, if only Bethesda had the foresight to include a kick button.
And insta-death traps - what might have been!

[krise madsen]

Just to avoid any confustion: The linear, scripted gameplay of Dark Messiah bored the shit out of me. I'm not much for "HalfLife with Swords". And while an action shooter, erm, slasher, doesn't have much to do with a 1st/3rd Person RPG, the combat in Oblivion did indeed seem rather pale in comparison. My overall impression of Dark Messiah was one of a well-made game though.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[Sarkus]

I liked it and still think some of the reviewers had poor experiences because the game allows you to create a sub-optimal character. There are only enough points to be earned to max out one of the basic character types so if you start pumping points into other areas you will end up with a character that isn't good enough to succeed without relying on the same endless tricks. Hence Tom's focus on the kicking aspect. If you focus entirely or mostly on one character type, the skills increase at a pace that allows you to open up different tactics and the game remains fun.

[Becoming]

I loved it at release, and it's still fun enough to have a great melee combat experience if you don't focus 100% of your effort on gaming the system (which is more difficult to do after some of the updates they made).

Still a very good game, though not epic greatness. Gimme that combat system in a huge open world and I'll be a very happy camper.

[Rock8man]

Still a very good game, though not epic greatness. Gimme that combat system in a huge open world and I'll be a very happy camper.

Yeah, as others have said, a melee combat system this robust in an open-world game like Oblivion would be incredible.

[AndrewM]

I had a lot of fun with it, but never got past the first couple of levels due to frequent crashing.

[metta]

Anyone play this on the Xbox? I was excited about the title in development (Randy Smith did some consulting work on it) but then the PC version came out and was lambasted for bugs. We don't have a tame Windows box any longer so I'm wondering how the 360 port was.

[Rock8man]

Anyone play this on the Xbox? I was excited about the title in development (Randy Smith did some consulting work on it) but then the PC version came out and was lambasted for bugs. We don't have a tame Windows box any longer so I'm wondering how the 360 port was.

Someone warned everyone away from the 360 version in the bargain thread about a month ago. They said it was absolutely terrible and forced you to choose a class, and there were a bunch of other changes, and none of it sounded good. The PC version is the one to get for this one.

[metta]

Someone warned everyone away from the 360 version in the bargain thread about a month ago. They said it was absolutely terrible and forced you to choose a class, and there were a bunch of other changes, and none of it sounded good. The PC version is the one to get for this one.

Ugh. Okay, thanks Rock8man burning out your fuse up here alone.

[frank austin]

Did the multiplayer for this game ever improve over launch? I remember feeling like it was a terribly weak version of the singleplayer game, especially considering you lost a bunch of cool melee options. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

[SpookyKG]

Did the multiplayer for this game ever improve over launch? I remember feeling like it was a terribly weak version of the singleplayer game, especially considering you lost a bunch of cool melee options. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

You were. Because it was always F-ing awesome.

Except high level mages were OP and the team would base fights around them. Except that the high level warriors could crouch and walk with their shield and it would power up huge and protect them from nukes. And assassin classes could stealth and backstab mages. And healers sucked.

God the MP, while slightly flawed, had some of the most potential i've ever seen in a game, and if it was a free mod it would be very highly played.

[triggercut]

Yeah, as others have said, a melee combat system this robust in an open-world game like Oblivion would be incredible.

...liiiiike Oblivion with the latest version of the "Deadly Reflex" mod running?

[Staff Sergeant]

Is Deadly Reflex in POOP? I own Oblivion GOTY and I have POOP downloaded but I haven't put it all together yet because apparently it takes a while.

[MattKeil]

Someone warned everyone away from the 360 version in the bargain thread about a month ago. They said it was absolutely terrible and forced you to choose a class, and there were a bunch of other changes, and none of it sounded good. The PC version is the one to get for this one.

The forced class choice actually solves the problem Sarkus mentions, where people were generalizing too much and not specializing, thus crippling themselves. Using classes guarantees that won't happen. I didn't really mind that change.

I would say the PC version is the one to get because it's about a hundred times better looking. The 360 version looks like an Xbox 1 game at times.

[triggercut]

Is Deadly Reflex in POOP? I own Oblivion GOTY and I have POOP downloaded but I haven't put it all together yet because apparently it takes a while.

Nope, the fellow who does Deadly Reflex updates it often enough that he requested we not include it, but it is a very polished and very fantastic piece of work.

[Staff Sergeant]

Nope, the fellow who does Deadly Reflex updates it often enough that he requested we not include it, but it is a very polished and very fantastic piece of work.

This probably can't be easily answered, but if I install POOP first will I be able to get Deadly Reflex to work?

[triggercut]

This probably can't be easily answered, but if I install POOP first will I be able to get Deadly Reflex to work?

Yep, just follow the install instructions in DR carefully. It has a few load-order issues where it needs to basically sit at the almost-bottom of your load order to work.

[Staff Sergeant]

Cool, thanks.

[HRose]

Dark Messiah was a wonderful game in potential.

One change I tried to do was to use endurance for parries so that you couldn't parry all the time. The combat only needed minimal changes to be awesome and less relying just on tricks.

I strongly doubt that any mod for Oblivion can go even vaguely close to the controls in Dark Messiah.

[Anaxagoras]

Tom Chick is a fucking idiot. Don't let him review games anymore. Dark Messiah is great. Just because his stupid ass chose to take the easy 'kick' route and didn't explore other options doesn't mean they don't exist. Don't blame the developers for your lack of ingenuity.

So remember, if you use the same game mechanism over & over, that's not bad game design. You're just an idiot! What I don't quite understand is how Tom Chick achieved "fucking idiot" status. Maybe you need to write down your thoughts in order to achieve the higher ranking?

[Becoming]

...liiiiike Oblivion with the latest version of the "Deadly Reflex" mod running?

I stopped trying to keep track of the roughly one billion Oblivion mods ages ago as I found most of them to be useless bloat that didn't enhance anything I considered worthwhile.

Thanks for mentioning this though, as I am now intrigued enough to track that down and take a peek. :)

[triggercut]

I stopped trying to keep track of the roughly one billion Oblivion mods ages ago as I found most of them to be useless bloat that didn't enhance anything I considered worthwhile.

Thanks for mentioning this though, as I am now intrigued enough to track that down and take a peek. :)

I won't speak to "most of them", but most of the mods sitting atop the highest-rated lists at TESNexus are absolutely worth checking out; with graphic overhauls, AI overhauls, quests like Glenvar Castle, Kvatch Rebuilt, etc. and other tweaks, the game barely resembles Vanilla Oblivion.

[Quitch]

So remember, if you use the same game mechanism over & over, that's not bad game design. You're just an idiot! What I don't quite understand is how Tom Chick achieved "fucking idiot" status. Maybe you need to write down your thoughts in order to achieve the higher ranking?

But this is a very common outlook for games people like, even on Qt3. Flaws in the system aren't flaws, they're flaws in you for finding and using winning strategies.

[SpookyKG]

But this is a very common outlook for games people like, even on Qt3. Flaws in the system aren't flaws, they're flaws in you for finding and using winning strategies.

Right, but it's different when you're presented with "If you press this button over and over, this game sucks. And that's what I did."

I think it's normal to question "Why did you do that if it made the game no fun?" Regardless of developer intent/mistakes/whatever, if doing something makes a game boring, try doing something else?

It's like saying "Fast travel in Oblivion makes the game boring, so the game is boring!" Yes, well it's completely optional, and while it helps you beat the game, it might not be the most enjoyable method. (This example is relevant even though Oblivion was boring)

[Anaxagoras]

I think it's normal to question "Why did you do that if it made the game no fun?" Regardless of developer intent/mistakes/whatever, if doing something makes a game boring, try doing something else?

It's the job of game designers to put parameters on the game that make it fun. Games are defined by their rules, and if their rules don't result in an enjoyable experience, then it's a poorly designed game. Granted some flexibility should be allowed to the player, so that he/she can tailor the experience somewhat. But if you have to conscientiously (sp?) avoid a mechanism that's staring you right in the face, that's bad game design, pure and simple.

[Zylon]

It's like saying "Fast travel in Oblivion makes the game boring, so the game is boring!"
Presumably, slow travel is even more boring.

Perhaps games with fast travel should make that option hazardous to use, like the Ways from the Wheel of Time game. Or has that already been done?

[Quitch]

It's like saying "Fast travel in Oblivion makes the game boring, so the game is boring!" Yes, well it's completely optional, and while it helps you beat the game, it might not be the most enjoyable method. (This example is relevant even though Oblivion was boring)

You can't sell me a challenge and then complain I tried to beat it.

[Rock8man]

Yeah, I fall on the side of Tom & company who say that if a game has a mechanic, even if it's optional, that can be abused to the detriment of the player, then that's bad game design.

As for me personally, I was presented with 3 or 4 choices at any given moment during a fight in this game, and I found most of them to be more fun than kicking enemies to death, so therefore I chose to go with them. However, the designer can't assume the player will always pick the choice that's most fun for them. That's also the reason I think restricting save-anywhere, if it means forcing the player away from playing a way that isn't as entertaining, is a valid option. If a player CAN save anywhere and brute force their way through certain situations where they should instead be using stealth, or some other mechanic that you've designed to be fun, then it doesn't mean the player is going to pick the most fun option. A lot of them will just chose to keep saving and loading and trying to brute force their way through a fight.

On the other hand, it is good to give players a choice in how they want to handle things. You just have to make sure every option they have is a good one.

[SpookyKG]

Yeah, I fall on the side of Tom & company who say that if a game has a mechanic, even if it's optional, that can be abused to the detriment of the player, then that's bad game design.

As for me personally, I was presented with 3 or 4 choices at any given moment during a fight in this game, and I found most of them to be more fun than kicking enemies to death, so therefore I chose to go with them. However, the designer can't assume the player will always pick the choice that's most fun for them.

This is more like how I feel than you would assume from my earlier post, I was mainly responding to Quitch's post.

I don't fault a reviewer for pointing out flaws, and while I'd have given Dark Messiah at least a C (because I played through with stealth/magic the first time, much more fun), I have no qualms with Tom's honest review.

Still, I consider myself thrifty if I *buy* a full priced game, find an "IWIN" button that makes the game lame, and avoid using it. I don't think that's stupid for not taking advantage of a winning mechanic, as I look for more in my games than progress and winning.

[Anti-Bunny]

Complaining about the kicking is kind of weird.

This isn't a multiplayer game, so why try to beat it the fastest/most efficient way instead of the most fun way?

[malkav11]

If the game is balanced such that it best rewards an unfun style of play, that's a problem. If it simply happens to offer an option that's unbalanced, and you don't enjoy that unbalanced option, and you're playing all by yourself, why take it?

It's like Bioshock and the wrench - people were complaining that they could just wrench/respawn/wrench to get through the whole game. Sure. But why the hell -would- you?

[Zylon]

It's like Bioshock and the wrench - people were complaining that they could just wrench/respawn/wrench to get through the whole game. Sure. But why the hell -would- you?
Because Bioshock is a game, not a toy.

If the original Doom had given players infinite BFG ammo, would it have been the fault of Id or the players that the end result would have been pretty damn boring?

[SpookyKG]

it best rewards an unfun style of play


This sums up what I'm arguing against. I'd like you to define 'reward' in less than 500 words, and have it on my desk by Friday.

[Quitch]

Allows me to progress.

[MattKeil]

Kicking was not the only way to progress in Dark Messiah. It wasn't even the best way, really. You could do what Tom did, but as others have said, I don't know why anyone would want to.

[Anti-Bunny]

Because Bioshock is a game, not a toy.

Uhm.. games are toys, buddy. I play them purely for my own amusement..

If you're playing games for some deeper meaning in life or something.. wow.

[HRose]

It's the job of game designers to put parameters on the game that make it fun. Games are defined by their rules, and if their rules don't result in an enjoyable experience, then it's a poorly designed game. Granted some flexibility should be allowed to the player, so that he/she can tailor the experience somewhat. But if you have to conscientiously (sp?) avoid a mechanism that's staring you right in the face, that's bad game design, pure and simple.
These types of arguments come up every couple of weeks.

There's just no way to explain it to people who don't know what game design is. It's a pointless discussion: either you get it, or you don't.

It's like playing Pac-man without the power-ups. You can always redesign a game to your taste. Nope, it doesn't mean that the original design was good.

The fact that you can decide not to use the kicking doesn't mean that the game is well designed. It just means you can force yourself to work around a game's flaw. Kicking is there to be used. Not using it is alike modding a mod to change the gameplay. If a game allows mods and these mods offer better game design, it doesn't mean that the original design was good.

Like Fallout. Combat gameplay is shit. But the VATS allows you to work around most of it.

[Zylon]

Uhm.. games are toys, buddy. I play them purely for my own amusement.
No, games are not toys. Games are something you play. Toys are something you play WITH.

Slinky: Toy
Chess: Not a toy

[Rock8man]

The fact that you can decide not to use the kicking doesn't mean that the game is well designed. It just means you can force yourself to work around a game's flaw. Kicking is there to be used. Not using it is alike modding a mod to change the gameplay. If a game allows mods and these mods offer better game design, it doesn't mean that the original design was good.

I was essentially saying the same above, though I just want to add that for this particular example, the kicking itself is not something to be ignored by those of us who like the game. I still use it, I just don't overuse it. It's really fun to kick during fights when you're fighting three or more enemies at once, and you need to whittle down the numbers fast. What doesn't sound like fun is overusing kick to make the game monotonous for yourself. Perhaps they should have added a stamina mechanic of some kind, which meant that you couldn't kick too many times without draining stamina. Which would force the user to do other moves. I think that's a better solution than getting rid of kicking, which was a good mechanic if it wasn't over-used. Like the BFG example above: if the infinite ammo BFG makes the game too boring, you want to limit the ammo on the BFG, not get rid of it altogether, since it's a fun gun to use under some circumstances.

[HRose]

What doesn't sound like fun is overusing kick to make the game monotonous for yourself. Perhaps they should have added a stamina mechanic of some kind, which meant that you couldn't kick too many times without draining stamina. Which would force the user to do other moves. I think that's a better solution than getting rid of kicking, which was a good mechanic if it wasn't over-used. Like the BFG example above: if the infinite ammo BFG makes the game too boring, you want to limit the ammo on the BFG, not get rid of it altogether, since it's a fun gun to use under some circumstances.
Yes, but "overusing" is not a flaw of the player, is the flaw in design.

That mechanic is done badly exactly because it was overused, not because it was a bad idea. The parry issue (could parry everything as long you hold down the key, you're invulnerable) needed just a tweak in endurance (so that you could parry for a limited amount of time, forcing you to dodge and move). The kicking is different. Every room contains various trick to be used along the kicking. It's present all the time, always designed to be the best way out.

The kicking effect was also way overpowered, send flinging people away and easily escape multiple enemies. A more occasional use (instead of all present tricks) and a more realistic and less powerful effect (to balance with the rest) would have make the mechanic better.

But it's still bad game design in the current state.

That's why there's limited BFG ammo. Telling players to not use the BFG if the BFG had infinite ammo would be a silly way to excuse bad game design.

That said, Dark Messiah has BY FAR the best melee combat and first person motions in a game. Nothing comes close.

[MattKeil]

I thought it did have a stamina meter for the kick. Maybe that was just the console version?

[Tom Chick]

That said, Dark Messiah has BY FAR the best melee combat and first person motions in a game. Nothing comes close.

Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay -- and its new friend Assault on Dark Athena -- wants to have a "talk" with you.

-Tom

[SpookyKG]

I thought it did have a stamina meter for the kick. Maybe that was just the console version?

Naw, PC as well, but you could block indefinitely with shields as the stamina meter recharged.

[copet]

I have to say I enjoyed Dark Messiah, but the kicking was pretty powerful, and obvious. Sometimes you have to work to make the game enjoyable. I just finished Crysis, and sure, I could stealth and shoot everyone in the head with the silencer. Lets be honest, there isn't really ever a time where punching a guy is better than shooting him in the head then cloaking. Still, I forced myself to do what would be the most fun for me.

Yes, I wish I didn't have to force myself to do it the fun way and not the easy way, but still, its possible to have fun in these types of games. If you don't like the kicking, try not to use it ;)

[BleedTheFreak]

I recently re-installed this for a second play through, and I'm having a blast. Just a gorgeous game still even.

Had a great "fuck yeah!" moment just a bit ago, in the first area where you are up against orcs I finally was able to purchase Lightning (going mage this time) and I came around a corner and 3 orcs were hanging out so I fired a blast at them. I actually missed (cuz I suck) but the blast took out a huge hunk of the wall next to them, bounced outward and hit the group (stunning them) and the wall meanwhile slowly toppled onto them, crushing them.

Fuck yeah.

[Hunty]

Snapped this up in the Steam sale, as a replacement for a bargain copy for a fiver that I lost. Second time through I'm enjoying it - I went kind of stealthy/melee the first time through, and this time I might make more use of the magic. It's far from perfect, and it could have been so good with just a few easy tweaks as mentioned above, but the combat is satisfyingly visceral. It's great for when you just have a sudden urge to hurt things - the Source engine physics are absolutely ludicrous, like when you kick someone near an edge and they fly off it at 90 miles an hour, but sometimes that's just what you need.

Case in point: I'm towards the very beginning of the game, in the mansion that gets attacked. There's a room that has a chandelier you can knock down, which swings down and twonks an archer that's patrolling around. He flies miles. The thing is, the chandelier then turns into the perpetual motion machine of death, and swings back and forth like a wrecking ball for about ten minutes without losing any momentum whilst shitloads of armoured mooks pile in. I was dodging around that thing for ages, using it to scythe them all down without touching any key apart from WASD. It was ace.

I think that's kind of a handy encapsulation of the whole game. Awesome idea, wonkily executed. But somehow still ace.

[copet]

Snapped this up in the Steam sale, as a replacement for a bargain copy for a fiver that I lost. Second time through I'm enjoying it - I went kind of stealthy/melee the first time through, and this time I might make more use of the magic. It's far from perfect, and it could have been so good with just a few easy tweaks as mentioned above, but the combat is satisfyingly visceral. It's great for when you just have a sudden urge to hurt things - the Source engine physics are absolutely ludicrous, like when you kick someone near an edge and they fly off it at 90 miles an hour, but sometimes that's just what you need.

Case in point: I'm towards the very beginning of the game, in the mansion that gets attacked. There's a room that has a chandelier you can knock down, which swings down and twonks an archer that's patrolling around. He flies miles. The thing is, the chandelier then turns into the perpetual motion machine of death, and swings back and forth like a wrecking ball for about ten minutes without losing any momentum whilst shitloads of armoured mooks pile in. I was dodging around that thing for ages, using it to scythe them all down without touching any key apart from WASD. It was ace.

I think that's kind of a handy encapsulation of the whole game. Awesome idea, wonkily executed. But somehow still ace.

lol just wait till you have the chance to dance circles around a fire pit, kicking them all into a pile in the middle :D This game is comically fun! :D

[Supper's Ready]

I must be one of the few people who really liked this game. But then I played it through only once as a magic user (seriously powerful). Only managed to make it half way through the second time with a melee character before getting bored.

I didn't mind the kicking mechanic so much as I rarely used it (but was aware of it thanks to Tom's review). The major problems with the game I had were technical, where it would crash with alarming frequency. But combat gameplay was awesome.

[Roy Ziegler]

You're not alone. The game was great and these people have horrible fucking taste and get hung up on dumb shit.

[Jon Rowe]

Case in point: I'm towards the very beginning of the game, in the mansion that gets attacked. There's a room that has a chandelier you can knock down, which swings down and twonks an archer that's patrolling around. He flies miles. The thing is, the chandelier then turns into the perpetual motion machine of death, and swings back and forth like a wrecking ball for about ten minutes without losing any momentum whilst shitloads of armoured mooks pile in. I was dodging around that thing for ages, using it to scythe them all down without touching any key apart from WASD. It was ace.

I just started playing this game this weekend. I know exactly what you were talking about. it is parts like this that make the game worthwhile. There are so many fun and awesome moments interspersed throughout the crap. Also, filling an entire dungeon with horrible spiders and zombies... UGGH! I hated that part.

The game has kind of a cool twist and a pretty interesting story (not award winning, but interesting) I didn't see the twist coming, I had an inkling but I didn't fully understand the scope.

One issue with the game... it is unbelievably hard to play, even on easy. The combat is unforgiving, and health packs are few and far between. I kept on dying, so I just turned on god-mode to play through the game. I no longer have to worry about health, and I can focus on doing cool moves and such. I really hate it when games are like this. I don't have the patience to play and replay areas. First-person melee combat is impossible for me to do well for some reason. I have such a hard time with the parry/block system. But with god-mode, the game is fun enough.

[Supper's Ready]

If you went with the magic tree, it's almost like god mode. Instead of worrying about timing parries correctly or how much damage you're taking, you can have enemies fighting and killing each other (one barely wins with a sliver of health, you then use one attack to finish him off).
The end I found ludicrously hard regardless of character build, though.

[copet]

I beat it with stealth on the hardest difficulty. Its really a lot more fun dueling orcs and such, and it finally gives the game a challenge! Also, adrenaline moves for knives are awesome! Throwing knives ftw :)

[Jon Rowe]

Also, adrenaline moves for knives are awesome! Throwing knives ftw :)

They are awesome!

I really liked the free-running aspects of the game. Especially the chase scene for the crystal near the start. The game engine lends itself well to free-running and chase scenes. I find myself often trying to run as fast as I can through certain areas.

One cool thing I did in the game involved the extremely cool rope bow.

At one point you reach this house on a cliff that is very unstable and it cracks and falls off if you move too far out. There are a ton of enticing items just out of reach at the far end of the house, but if you run at them you will get pulled out. So, I made bunch of ropes from the ceiling to jump from without touching the ground. Got all the items and roped myself back successfully. (actually I slammed to the ground to trigger the house to fall and jumped on to my rope quickly. I made my way out the door safely anyhow)

I like this game a lot more than oblivion so far, because it feels more directed, and the characters feel a lot less wooden.

[Quitch]

I liked Dark Messiah because it varied between challenging you and dumping you in rooms filled with stuff and just daring you to come up with new ways to kill things. I always thought melee was overpowered, you parry, kick, and finally get the insta-win electric shield. But no matter because the game was just so much bloody fun!

I loved the voice in the head and wish it had done more with this, but most of all I love just how my character perfectly inhabited the grey area between good and evil. I really felt I was there :)

It's a really fun game. Lame ending though.

[malkav11]

I got to a bit slightly post-first-orc level (fifth or maybe sixth overall level, I think), where they want me to climb some tower lined with poisonous spiders, and it was so ludicrously annoying that I've never gone back. I'm sure it gets fun again if I could just get through that one section, but.. :P

[Marcus]

Yeah I almost gave up on that one last night. Once you get past that though it's not so bad.

[Hunty]

I remember that spider climb section from my first playthrough - the trick with it is to not stop and fight or do anything apart from run and jump, at all, ever. Think of it as a five minute burst of Mirror's Edge, to continue the freerunning theme from earlier. It's all about fluidly doing the complicated jumps and memorising the route. Even doing that though, I had to resort to quicksave cheesing it more than a bit to get through. Thankfully that's only part of the game that suffers from that sort of thing, in my experience.

[Marcus]

Just beat the game with a total of 9.4 hours spent playing. Not a bad little run all in all. I sure enjoyed it for what it was.

[DoomMunky]

Has anyone mentioned how horribly, insultingly bad the story is, and how terribly executed it is? The 'sexy' evil lady in your head with the puerile double-entendres and the buxom, sweet, gee-shucks-you're-neat flaxen haired supporting chick? From poorly executed story tropes to generic characters to obvious, embarrassing voice acting, it gives the impression it was written by a 14 year old trying to impress 12 year olds.

[Marcus]

I dunno I was too busy kicking orcs off cliffs to care about a " story".

[SpookyKG]

The 'sexy' evil lady in your head with the puerile double-entendres and the buxom, sweet, gee-shucks-you're-neat flaxen haired supporting chick

To be honest, I was really impressed by how hot each character was, probably the most 'attractive' models I had seen at the time, Lara Croft being too cartoony, other characters too wooden or too ridiculous.

[Jon Rowe]

Has anyone mentioned how horribly, insultingly bad the story is, and how terribly executed it is? The 'sexy' evil lady in your head with the puerile double-entendres and the buxom, sweet, gee-shucks-you're-neat flaxen haired supporting chick? From poorly executed story tropes to generic characters to obvious, embarrassing voice acting, it gives the impression it was written by a 14 year old trying to impress 12 year olds.

It was a lot better than what I was expecting. There were actually some twists and turns in the storyline that kept it interesting. Sure it won't win any awards, but I didn't think of being bad. (aside from some of the voice acting)

[Hunty]

To be honest, I was really impressed by how hot each character was, probably the most 'attractive' models I had seen at the time, Lara Croft being too cartoony, other characters too wooden or too ridiculous.

This is why we can't have nice things. Hot > Plot, apparently.

Although to be fair the plot is perfectly serviceable brain-off fantasy hokum that moved the slicey slicey action forward. I wasn't really expecting Dostoyevsky.

[Rock8man]

This is why we can't have nice things.

OK. Now you've got my coworkers wondering why I'm laughing out loud while waiting for code to compile. Well done sir.

[krise madsen]

This is why we can't have nice things. Hot > Plot, apparently.

Although to be fair the plot is perfectly serviceable brain-off fantasy hokum that moved the slicey slicey action forward. I wasn't really expecting Dostoyevsky.

Well, at least they had the good sense to cover up the dodgy story with some T&A.

I've never really liked linear shooters (which is what Dark Messiah is, only with extra melee combat); I really don't like being bottlenecked into certain locations to the game can show off it's effects and plot twists.

If a game like that is to get my thumbs up, just about everything about it has to be bloody perfect. Like Call of Duty 4. Yeah, Dark Messiah's combat was pretty cool, kicks and all, but not enough to make up for it's other deficiencies.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[Omniscia]

I don't know if I'll ever finish this one. I've been playing the heck out of it for the past week (when I have time, anyway), and am currently stuck in the Epilogue. It seems I'm surrounded by Vampire Knights, and while my Lightning Shield/Earthfire Sword combo are working wonders at putting them down, every time I get an adrenaline kill on one, the game crashes. Something about some deathknight_headless.mdl file not being precached.

I've suffered this far, through many inconvenient though not game-killing bugs, and I'll be damned if I don't finish this thing. But it doesn't seem to want me to.

[Rock8man]

Sorry to hear about that Omniscia. I played the game through when it was first launched at retail and on Steam, and I didn't run into a single bug, even before the first patch, while others complained that it was one of the buggiest games they'd played in a while, so apparently people's mileage on that issue varied a lot.

[Omniscia]

Despite the bugs, and the horribly generic story, it is kinda fun. I feel like a Rockette at a Renfaire.

[Murbella]

Yeah i played it near release and had no recurring (it might have crashed every neon blue moon) problems with it. I did play a fighter type though so who knows if it was a magic related problem.

Always felt it was a very underrated game personally. Some of the best combat in a melee game. I do wish kicks had been harder though because while fun, it did make it so you didn't have to use the fun melee system at times.

[Sarkus]

I decided to replay this for some reason. The graphics have not aged well.

But I still like to kick enemies to their death. ;-)

[Murbella]

I still haven't played a pc game with better melee combat. That is all.

[mtkafka]

I still haven't played a pc game with better melee combat. That is all.

I kind of agree. Dark Messiah is the closest to a Demon Souls game we have on pc.

but the KICKING WAS OVERPOWER'D!

[mrcjhicks]

I kind of agree. Dark Messiah is the closest to a Demon Souls game we have on pc.

but the KICKING WAS OVERPOWER'D!

I beg to differ, sir. It was, in fact, hilarious.

[mtkafka]

I beg to differ, sir. It was, in fact, hilarious.

i read all about the kicking before playing the game and didn't think it was real (or just hyperbole). but when i got to the level on the docks... i thought i was playing fantasy chuck norris!

yes, hilarity ensues!

[Lynch]

I still haven't played a pc game with better melee combat. That is all.

This. It was just beatiful and I have no fucking idea why we haven't seen something comparable in the meantime.

[Lynch]

but the KICKING WAS OVERPOWER'D!

Dark Messiah was not a hard game, so only you are to be blamed when ruining your experience by kicking all those foes.

It was not about simply killing all the enemies but to enjoy HOW to kill them.

[mtkafka]

Dark Messiah was not a hard game, so only you are to be blamed when ruining your experience by kicking all those foes.

It was not about simply killing all the enemies but to enjoy HOW to kill them.

i enjoyed the game! wish there was a sequel. im still waiting for a developer to make a DM type game ... ala diablo first person with the combat challenge of Demon Souls.

[Lynch]

Yeah...we need another Dark messiah game. It won't come from Arcane or Floodgate however.

[Rock8man]

I thought Arcane made Dark Messiah. Who is Floodgate? Did they do the console ports or something?

[mtkafka]

I thought Arcane made Dark Messiah. Who is Floodgate? Did they do the console ports or something?

Floodgate co-developed Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights:_Shadows_of_Undrentide) alongside BioWare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioWare),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floodgate_Entertainment#cite_note-pressrelease-1) and Dark Messiah of Might & Magic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Messiah_of_Might_%26_Magic) alongside Arkane Studios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkane_Studios).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floodgate_Entertainment#cite_note-floodg-2) In 2006, they signed a deal with Sony BMG Music Entertainment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_Music_Entertainment) to distribute their game Mo-Pets.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floodgate_Entertainment#cite_note-pressrelease2-3) Recently, the company has focused on casual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual_game) mobile games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_games).

from wikipedia.

[Lynch]

and FloodGate Entertainment, a company made up of developers largely from Looking Glass Studios.

http://www.bioware.com/bioware_info/press_releases/nwnxp1/

[Rock8man]

Floodgate co-developed Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights:_Shadows_of_Undrentide) alongside BioWare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioWare),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floodgate_Entertainment#cite_note-pressrelease-1) and Dark Messiah of Might & Magic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Messiah_of_Might_%26_Magic) alongside Arkane Studios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkane_Studios).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floodgate_Entertainment#cite_note-floodg-2) In 2006, they signed a deal with Sony BMG Music Entertainment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_Music_Entertainment) to distribute their game Mo-Pets.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floodgate_Entertainment#cite_note-pressrelease2-3) Recently, the company has focused on casual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual_game) mobile games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_games).

from wikipedia.

Interesting. From Floodgate's website:


Dark Messiah was co-developed by Arkane Studios, with concept, game, level and sound design by Floodgate Entertainment.

Sounds like they had a pretty major role. Plus they are located in Boston and made up of mostly former Looking Glass employees. So a lot of the credit for what I love in Dark Messiah might go to Floodgate. It's a shame they're doing mobile games now.

[Jon Rowe]

This game had some awesome bits.

Some of the parts on that level where you are on the cliffs were just pure awesome. Kicking guys off a ledge, and the scripted bit where the house falls off of the cliff.. pretty darn cool. Especially because there is a ridiculous treasure chest on the far end of the house calling for you with it's sweet siren song of looty goodness.

I saved and reloaded many times to get that chest, and I ended up glitching my way through it.

Also, I think it was early on, but the chase sequence through the town was very well done as well. There was a real sense of motion and speed going on there. (This was pre Mirror's Edge, so it was new and cool to me)