Massive: it's not just the size of the pages

[TomChick]

Of course, as we all know, print is dead and online killed it, so you'll have to get Massive while the getting's good. (http://www.quartertothree.com/inhouse/news/292/)

[Dave Long]

I bought the first issue at Wal-Mart. It's fun stuff. Definitely worth reading if you enjoy MMOGs. Tom's article on the near loss of a million player characters is superb. Even better if you work in IT and know how things can go horribly wrong when you have to roll back to a previous date with everything.

[Backov]

I'd like to buy a copy, but my local book store doesn't have it in their computers at all. No Canadian distribution?

[stusser]

Does EQ2 have a million subscribers? I thought it was like 150k. Even EQ1 never signed over 500k, only WoW and jap/korean games got those numbers.

Hopefully Massive will be wildly suceessful and end up renamed to "Multiplayer Games for Windows Magazine", the peak of the credibility scale in the publishing biz, in lofty company with such legendary luminaries as Nintendo Power.

Sorry, being snide... I still hate sony, get abashi flashbacks when I least expect them, like, I'm eating a delectable carnitas burrito from chipotle and I think of that son of a bitch and cr... anyway. The article does look interesting, not the normal fluff piece.

[extarbags]

The first two paragraphs are also up (http://massive-magazine.com/content/view/735/6/) at Massive's website.

[Jake Plane]

Have sex with your buddies?
It's not the size of the pages?

Tom... seems you got something on your mind of late... Wanna share? We're a sensitive bunch.

[Backov]

Follow up: Chapters in Victoria has it.

Awesome locally owned bookstore FTL. I don't know how these guys stay in business. I (used to) try to order things from them, they'd say "Sure, we'll have that for you in 3 weeks or so for $X" - Meanwhile, I know that Amazon.com has it for $X-$10 and ships in 24 hours. Uh huh.

[Jim Hoffman]

So you can subscribe w/ digital download and save THREE BUCKS! over the hardcopy subscription. Does that include any material that would come on the DVD?

[Linoleum]

Does EQ2 have a million subscribers? I thought it was like 150k. Even EQ1 never signed over 500k, only WoW and jap/korean games got those numbers.

Number of characters > Number of player accounts.

[steve]

So you can subscribe w/ digital download and save THREE BUCKS! over the hardcopy subscription. Does that include any material that would come on the DVD?
No, there's no DVD with the digital version, which is why it costs less.

[Backov]

No, there's no DVD with the digital version, which is why it costs less.

Very funny. Considering the COG of the digital version is about 25c sans DVD and about 1.25 with DVD. :)

[Mark Crump]

I've spent 10 years in IT. I really felt for the SOE IT department. This was a good article, Tom.

[steve]

Very funny. Considering the COG of the digital version is about 25c sans DVD and about 1.25 with DVD. :)
I'm not sure of the economics of the digital editions for MASSIVE, but with our other ones from Zinio.com, we pay for every download, we pay an upfront fee, we pay a processing and production fee, etc. There's a lot of paying on our end, so the difference isn't substantial. We make the same amount of profit per single copy as we do at retail, and a similar profit per subscription even with a lower price. (I think our digital subs for CGM are $2 less than our standard mail rate.)

We also face the same problem digital distribution faces when dealing with brick and mortar stores: If we undercut them too much on single-copy sales, they won't want to carry the magazine at all.

[Slainte Mhath]

I totally forgot I wanted to comment on Massive until I saw this thread.

I got my premiere issue about a month ago. First of all, kudos to Steve, Cindy and the rest of the gang from CGM who brought Massive to life. It's a sharp looking magazine, well designed and well presented, with a lot more content than I would have expected and some really good pieces from contributing editors (Tom's is only one example). I'd say I enjoyed those articles the most, followed by the round up of MMO games both present and future and the columns from the regular editors.

There were only a couple of things I did not like. Chief among them were the one page contributions from industry "names". They felt kind of stilted and contrived, especially Richard Garriot's contribution which read like he wrote it 4 years ago. Does he really think instanced gameplay is still a frontier in MMORPG development? On a related note, some of the content throughout the magazine (usually in sidebars and add-on blurbs) was material that was reprinted from previous issues of CGM. Since it was mostly filler stuff, and many Massive readers may not be CGM subscribers, I don't consider it a big problem, but hopefully this "recycling" won't extend to articles, previews or other featured content.

Again, great job on the first issue and here's hoping for a long and successful run. I was skeptical that a magazine devoted soley to online gaming could hold my interest, but it did, cover to cover. Looking forward to my next issue.

[Charlatan]

I'm sure it's been asked before, but where can you run out and grab a copy of this? Any chains definitely carrying it? Because I usually have the worst luck trying to find the non-top 3 or so gaming magazines in B&M bookstores.

[Backov]

I didn't read the first issue all the way through yet, but the pieces I had hoped would be most interesting (McQuaid and Garriot) turned out to be pretty fluffy and felt more like they were defining a problem, and then talking about how their new thing would solve it.

[Chris Nahr]

I have no interest whatsoever in an MMORPG magazine but does this launch mean that CGM will drop its MMORPG coverage? At least some of it? Pretty please?

[Jay Adan]

Not according to Cindy. I asked her that very question last week.

[ReptileHouse]

I picked up a copy at Barnes and Noble the other day and really enjoyed it. I agree that Tom's article was fantastic. Good stuff.

But then, I'm kinda biased towards liking it. :D

[Mark Asher]

I went out and bought an issue today. I was really impressed. I love the over-sized pages and the layout is tasteful and attractive. The section on what’s going on with current games is exactly what I want. A few of the columns were uninteresting, but overall the magazine was great. Good job to those responsible.

[mutt]

Have sex with your buddies?
It's not the size of the pages?

Tom... seems you got something on your mind of late... Wanna share? We're a sensitive bunch.
Sounds like a Rep. Mark Foley reference to me.

[steve]

I'm sure it's been asked before, but where can you run out and grab a copy of this? Any chains definitely carrying it? Because I usually have the worst luck trying to find the non-top 3 or so gaming magazines in B&M bookstores.
Barnes & Noble and Borders are your best bets. Apparently, EB/Gamestop has signed on and will start selling the first issue in a couple of weeks.

As to Slaine's question, some of that is just due to time/budget/manpower constraints. Based on our surveys, the overlap of readers between our two publications is very small, less than 10%. Even with that low of an overlap, I'd rather not re-use content, but might for hardware or some other, smaller things.

We won't drop MMO coverage from CGM, but we probably won't do another "Massively Multiplayer Issue" kind of feature either.

Thanks for all the comments, guys.

[Charlatan]

I ran out at lunch and lucked into one at BooksAMillion - in fact they had a bunch of em. I also bought a copy of Comuter Games (which I can seemingly never find, so I was shocked) because I wub you steve! Looking forward to digging in to them tonight.

[steve]

I ran out at lunch and lucked into one at BooksAMillion - in fact they had a bunch of em. I also bought a copy of Comuter Games (which I can seemingly never find, so I was shocked) because I wub you steve! Looking forward to digging in to them tonight.
If you really wubbed me, you would have bought all the copies.

[mystery]

Huh, I didn't know that Massive was related to CGM. I could have sworn when it was originally announced years back, it was under the influence of some independant folks. Did theGlobe buy it up as a new IP?

[Mark Asher]

Huh, I didn't know that Massive was related to CGM. I could have sworn when it was originally announced years back, it was under the influence of some independant folks. Did theGlobe buy it up as a new IP?

There was an MMO magazine done by Incan God Monkey Studios, a bunch of ex-Origin writers who formed a business and who do game guides and game manuals. I think they only got out an issue or two before it folded. It may have had Massive somewhere in the title.

The problem it had was that the publisher (not Incan but someone else, forget who) wanted it to be more like a game guide, so it didn’t have ads and was priced at $15 or something like that, yet you’d find it on the magazine racks. It was just ill-conceived in that respect.

[Dave Long]

It's a totally original magazine from the people who do CGM.

[Tyjenks]

I like CGM's MMORPG section, but is there that much to write about in MMORPG's on a routing basis to fill up a monthly issues? (Assuming it is monthly and not every other or something.) I know there is tons you can pack in there in between the massively massive Massive MMORPG ads, but is there enough intersting stuff.

I enjoy reading a well written article about games I own, am considering, or may never pick up, but with the smaller number of titles in the genre relative to games covered in CGM/CGW/et.al., articles about MMORPG-speak and the like may wear thin. OTOH, I may not be the target.

I have played EQII and WoW and UO and that is it. I am feverishly looking for another that'll satisfy me, but I am not all about getting elite sets of armor through constant raiding or camping for spawns that'll drop unicorn horns. I read the CGM articles by Cindy and Co., but it is difficult for me to see that section stretched into a full and regular magazine.

I'll definitely read it while I am at Barnes and Noble studying this weekend and hope it is does well. Just adding my random thoughts.

[steve]

I like CGM's MMORPG section, but is there that much to write about in MMORPG's on a routing basis to fill up a monthly issues? (Assuming it is monthly and not every other or something.)
It's a quarterly publication.

[Tyjenks]

Alrighty then. I am on board.

[mystery]

There was an MMO magazine done by Incan God Monkey Studios, a bunch of ex-Origin writers who formed a business and who do game guides and game manuals. I think they only got out an issue or two before it folded. It may have had Massive somewhere in the title.

Ah, you are correct. For the life of me, I thought the name of that magazine was "Massive" as well.

[Flowers]

Three thumbs up. I even checked out the dvd.

[Charlatan]

I actually laughed out loud at a goofy article on how to interpret chat in a MMORPG. They have a simulated chat window where they explain what stuff like LFG, porting, and terms like tank mean. After some general mildly amusing stuff one entry is:

"Saw u outside OMG lets met an we can h4v3 teh buttseks!!!"

translated as

"You're an interesting person and I'd like to sign up for your newsletter."

Given all the prior semi-serious translations, it just struck me as goofy. It gets goofier later on.

There are some pretty good article in the magazine, Tom's being one of them, of course.

[Backov]

I actually laughed out loud at a goofy article on how to interpret chat in a MMORPG. They have a simulated chat window where they explain what stuff like LFG, porting, and terms like tank mean. After some general mildly amusing stuff one entry is:

"Saw u outside OMG lets met an we can h4v3 teh buttseks!!!"

translated as

"You're an interesting person and I'd like to sign up for your newsletter."

Given all the prior semi-serious translations, it just struck me as goofy. It gets goofier later on.

There are some pretty good article in the magazine, Tom's being one of them, of course.

In my copy of that magazine, several "highlighted" sections of interpreted text are actually blank.. So you have:

You Say: <Blank blue bar>

Interpretation: "Golly, I'm going to leave now and come back as one of my other characters"

There's 4 of those blank blue bars in the article.

[Damien Neil]

Ah, you are correct. For the life of me, I thought the name of that magazine was "Massive" as well.

Since I seem to have bought a copy of it by accident at Borders yesterday, I think you're right. The name "Massive" definitely appears in the title, at least. (I don't have the magazine with me, so I can't check the full title.)

[steve]

Since I seem to have bought a copy of it by accident at Borders yesterday, I think you're right. The name "Massive" definitely appears in the title, at least. (I don't have the magazine with me, so I can't check the full title.)
There's "Beckett's Massive Online Gamer," which I believe is already dead.

As for the chat article, it was our screw-up. For all of you Quark fans, overprinting, knockout, blah blah blah.

[Sparky]

I looked for it at Fry's yesterday, and although they had tons of Computer Games, there was no MASSIVE to be found in the video game section. I found a nice big stack of them waay on the bottom shelf between Fangoria and Starlog. I think the name and the orc on the cover must have confused whoever stocks the magazines.

I surreptitiously moved three or four MASSIVEs up next to Computer Games. I would have moved the whole stack but I didn't want to get busted by the Fry's employee hovering nearby. I love you, Steve, but I'm not gonna do time in Fry's Prison with the headless fiberglass statue of Annie Oakley and all the stacks of returned wireless routers and copies of Microsoft BOB with spiderwebs all over them. I ain't never goin' back, man!

[Damien Neil]

There's "Beckett's Massive Online Gamer," which I believe is already dead.

That'd be the one. Based on the issue I mistakenly bought, its death will not be lamented.

[Geo]

I picked it up today at Barnes & Noble. It was on the "Readers' Favorites" section's shelves, fwiw.

I liked the articles.

I still think the problem with an MMO magazine is that most mmo junkies have time for one, maybe two mmos to play (money and time in a 24 hour day being the limiting factors). Most of the people I once enjoyed playing City of Heroes with moved on to WoW or Guild Wars and never looked back, aside from brief 2-day reappearances for special events and the occasional, desperate, "come back and play free for a week" gimmick events. So if someone lives and breathes WoW, Guild Wars or whatever, I'm not sure they're going to feel any need to buy a magazine that devotes maybe a handful of pages to their passion. I don't know too many mmo "grazers" that are dying for info on other games. But the main articles are interesting and sometimes general enough so maybe my theory is bunk. :)

Financially, maybe it'd be better to just do a print WoW magazine. If you even get 20% of the WoW Subscriber base to bite, you've topped the 1 million magazine subscriber mark right there. Then again, I'm no publisher. :)

[steve]

Financially, maybe it'd be better to just do a print WoW magazine. If you even get 20% of the WoW Subscriber base to bite, you've topped the 1 million magazine subscriber mark right there. Then again, I'm no publisher. :)
Well, 20% of the North American market would be about 400,000. And I'm not sure I'd bank on a 20% conversion.

Also, Blizzard wouldn't just let someone do a WoW magazine. It would be... challenging to work with them on such a thing.

[Mark Asher]

"I still think the problem with an MMO magazine is that most mmo junkies have time for one, maybe two mmos to play (money and time in a 24 hour day being the limiting factors). Most of the people I once enjoyed playing City of Heroes with moved on to WoW or Guild Wars and never looked back, aside from brief 2-day reappearances for special events and the occasional, desperate, "come back and play free for a week" gimmick events. So if someone lives and breathes WoW, Guild Wars or whatever, I'm not sure they're going to feel any need to buy a magazine that devotes maybe a handful of pages to their passion."

Yeah, that's the thing I wonder about too. I enjoy reading the 1-3 paragraph shorts about what's up in other games, but I'm not sure I want that enough to get the magazine.

I probably would be more interested in a WoW magazine. I'm not sure there's enough news in WoW for a monthly magazine, though. It's not like a PNP game where fans can make their own dungeons. In WoW there's patches, developer comments, and guild drama. That's about the extent of the news. The other content could be walkthroughs and talent builds, but you can only go so far with that too.

[Geo]

I love when I'm quoted as if I'm an insightful pundit. Maybe I sound that way cause I is old (41). ;-)

I'm not ready to subscribe yet, but I'll certainly check the issues as they hit the stands.

I'm starting a new, true 9-5 job soon and I'll either have more time in the evenings to "have a life" and do constructive things, or I'll try more MMOs...

[Dave Long]

"I still think the problem with an MMO magazine is that most mmo junkies have time for one, maybe two mmos to play (money and time in a 24 hour day being the limiting factors). Most of the people I once enjoyed playing City of Heroes with moved on to WoW or Guild Wars and never looked back, aside from brief 2-day reappearances for special events and the occasional, desperate, "come back and play free for a week" gimmick events. So if someone lives and breathes WoW, Guild Wars or whatever, I'm not sure they're going to feel any need to buy a magazine that devotes maybe a handful of pages to their passion."

Yeah, that's the thing I wonder about too. I enjoy reading the 1-3 paragraph shorts about what's up in other games, but I'm not sure I want that enough to get the magazine.

I probably would be more interested in a WoW magazine. I'm not sure there's enough news in WoW for a monthly magazine, though. It's not like a PNP game where fans can make their own dungeons. In WoW there's patches, developer comments, and guild drama. That's about the extent of the news. The other content could be walkthroughs and talent builds, but you can only go so far with that too.

But, it's not monthly. No one's making one that's monthly and I don't think anyone's suggesting that.

[Geo]

It's all just semantics. :) I didn't know Massive was only a quarterly myself. But then, maybe my crazy WoW Magazine idea makes more sense as a quarterly compendium of columns and analysis pieces. :)

[Mark Asher]

"But, it's not monthly. No one's making one that's monthly and I don't think anyone's suggesting that."

I was referring to the idea of a WoW magazine being a monthly. The conversation went off on a bit of a tangent.

I think what I'd really like is a WoW magazine with maybe a 3-5 page roundup of the rest of the MMO games. I'll take 90% WoW coverage and 10% other game coverage.

[Tyjenks]

I picked it up. It gives a nice overview of everything around and upcoming and some nice articles. I can see reading up until I find a new MMORPG I enjoy and then I will just look at the newstand copy to read specific items referencing whichever game I settle on. Luckily, everything that looks good will not be released for a while and will be delayed even further, so, on my plan, I might as well subscribe for a year.

(I really only bought it because I am easily lured by the carrot of preferred Beta access to Dogs and Dildoes.)

[Slainte Mhath]

I think there is plenty of stuff out there to cover besides WoW, and Massive's first issue proves it. Not only did they do a roundup of dozens of current and upcoming games (which granted you can't really do every issue, at least not of that size), but they had several large articles on interesting facets of the industry (like Tom's article on the crash at SOE). The mods section was large and very useful, and the editorial columns were as good as I've come to expect from folks like Steve and Cindy (no, that is NOT damning with faint praise, so don't even go there).

In the future there's all sorts of things they could do to keep me interested in the magazine. Stories about lesser known players in the MMO industry, like what makes Runescape so darn popular and why? A piece on gaming in Korea, China or Europe (or all three) contrasting what we think of as MMO gaming with how it's perceived overseas. Maybe an ongoing serial piece that follows an MMOG in development with input from the developers. Articles on alternative MMOGs like Second Life, Tale in the Desert, etc. and who plays them. Coverage of fan events and special in game events for the major games. These are all interesting things I'd enjoy reading about.

That's in addition to the editorial content, the mods and ends stuff, the previews of new games, the news section, etc.. All together that's plenty to make a 75-80 page magazine every 3 months, and as long as they can keep the price down to a couple bucks an issue (via subscription of course) then I see no reason why Massive can't be successful.

[Mark Asher]

I think there is plenty of stuff out there to cover besides WoW, and Massive's first issue proves it. Not only did they do a roundup of dozens of current and upcoming games (which granted you can't really do every issue, at least not of that size), but they had several large articles on interesting facets of the industry (like Tom's article on the crash at SOE). The mods section was large and very useful, and the editorial columns were as good as I've come to expect from folks like Steve and Cindy (no, that is NOT damning with faint praise, so don't even go there).

In the future there's all sorts of things they could do to keep me interested in the magazine. Stories about lesser known players in the MMO industry, like what makes Runescape so darn popular and why? A piece on gaming in Korea, China or Europe (or all three) contrasting what we think of as MMO gaming with how it's perceived overseas. Maybe an ongoing serial piece that follows an MMOG in development with input from the developers. Articles on alternative MMOGs like Second Life, Tale in the Desert, etc. and who plays them. Coverage of fan events and special in game events for the major games. These are all interesting things I'd enjoy reading about.

That's in addition to the editorial content, the mods and ends stuff, the previews of new games, the news section, etc.. All together that's plenty to make a 75-80 page magazine every 3 months, and as long as they can keep the price down to a couple bucks an issue (via subscription of course) then I see no reason why Massive can't be successful.

I don’t disagree. I was just trying to gauge my own interest beyond the novelty of a new magazine. As much as I like MMOs, I seem to be captivated by WoW to the exclusion of all others. I can’t even be bothered to play them when they are free, such as the free trials of DND Online and Auto Assault.

It is a good magazine, though, as judged by its first issue. I will probably buy the next one on the newsstand. The $5.99 price was surprisingly friendly too.

[Slainte Mhath]

I don’t disagree. I was just trying to gauge my own interest beyond the novelty of a new magazine. As much as I like MMOs, I seem to be captivated by WoW to the exclusion of all others. I can’t even be bothered to play them when they are free, such as the free trials of DND Online and Auto Assault.

Sorry, didn't mean that to seem pointed at anyone in particular, just as a broad reasoning behind why I think a mag like Massive can succeed. And I totally get the WoW addiction thing, I usually can't do more than one or two MMOGs at the same time myself, currently it's Guild Wars and (of all things) Planetside for me.

Which only bolsters the age old arguement that if games, especially older ones, were to drop the $15 a month for everyone model and adopt a $5 a month for 20 hours (or $15 a month for unlimited play) pricing structure we'd suddenly find a bunch of old games (or new ones even) very attractive. But that's a discussion for another thread...OR an editorial piece for Massive! Heh!

[Tyjenks]

It is a good magazine, though, as judged by its first issue. I will probably buy the next one on the newsstand. The $5.99 price was surprisingly friendly too.

Mark, for the low, low price of a mere seven additional dollars you can get a full year of..... let's see 4 quarters in one year means...., 4 issues.

I, too, was just coming at it from a personal perspective. When involved in an MMORPG it is kinda all consuming, for me at least. When I played WoW for the year I did, I played it to the exclusion of most other PC games. I had absolutely zero interest in what was going on in other MMORPGs. My 5 or 6 months with EQ2, I was done with WoW, cared nothing about it or any other. Went back to WoW recently and it seems boring. Now, I am between games and enjoy browsing the info on other games in the genre. Maybe they will all leave me empty and I will continue to read Massive looking for my next title to bury myself in.

My point was that the genre seems like it requires one, except for the diehards with too much time on their hands, to focus his or her time and energies on their current game. With other game genre's, it is not that way since the time and monetary investment is on a shorter life cycle. The next thing could be a month away rather than a year or two.

[Dean]

I don’t disagree. I was just trying to gauge my own interest beyond the novelty of a new magazine. As much as I like MMOs, I seem to be captivated by WoW to the exclusion of all others. I can’t even be bothered to play them when they are free, such as the free trials of DND Online and Auto Assault.

I was betting that you were Dr. M.M. O'Rly.