My house was broken into this morning.

[Dante Rising]

Please forgive the cross-post from gaming trend. I could really use some advice from you guys about something terrible that happened to me at about 2:00AM this morning. I live in a two-story townhome, and at midnight I went to take a nap in the master bedroom on the second floor. About 2 hours later, for a reason I still don't understand, I suddenly woke up. With my head still on the pillow, I looked into the hallway because my door was partially ajar. In front of our second bedroom a man was slowly opening the door to the guest bedroom.

For a few brief seconds I felt like I was in some type of dream state as I watched him cautiously slide the door open. That was quickly followed by an immediate wave of fear which quickly turned into anger. I shouted out at the guy and stumbled out of bed detangling myself from the blankets. At this point I remembered that I have one of those ornamental "Way of the Samurai" samurai swords from the Franklin Mint on the bedroom wall. I grabbed it and he was already running down the steps to the bottom floor.

At this point I chased after him, but a thousand thoughts started running through my mind, the primary one being that he may not be alone. I slowed down at the bottom of the stairs, turned the corner, and saw him bolting toward the back sliding door of my townhome. I shouted again and then he turned to look at me and started to slow down. I'm not sure if he was disoriented, frightened, or was thinking about attacking me since he wasn't wearing a mask and I'd seen his face twice now, albeit in partial darkness. After a brief moment he reoriented and then bolted out the back sliding door. I chased him out the threshold trailing about 15-20 feet behind him.

Our backyard (unfenced) sits against a farmer's field. He ran into the dried corn husks. It is pitch black in the back of our house so visibility is very poor, but I got the distinct impression that there were two people moving together through the field. Despite the fact that I had this admittedly blunt sword in my hand, I was feeling scared all over again. I moved back into the house. I called 911, the call dropped once, and the second attempt a woman stayed on the line with me until two police units arrived within 5 minutes. They had a few other officers moving through the corn field with flashlights, but according to them it looked like the person(s) doubled back. The police took fingerprints from my entertainment center and doors, so I'm hoping they turn out to be helpful.

Three worrisome points:

1) The officer thinks the theft was possibly done by a neighbor in the college townhome complex. His reasoning is that I interrupted the burglary, but no stolen items were piled against the back door. This can be a sign of a "train" where the thief and/or his partner move things to a nearby house as they rob you. (Cars cannot access the back area, and the townhomes are in a long connected chain that basically bars a person from going to the front of the homes.) One other possibility is that one of the people we brought through our townhome as we tried to sublet it was there strictly to case our house in order to rob it later.

2) They also believe that the person may have been "prepared" for violence, but I managed to catch him by surprise. I guess ordinarily when a thief sees a car in the driveway he will stay on the bottom level of the townhome unit away from the upstairs sleeping bedrooms. The fact that he went upstairs, at the very least, implies he is bolder than many thieves.

3) I offered to give the police the phone numbers and names of the people who came to view our place for the sublet, because according to my girlfriend two of them closely match the description I gave the police. (My girlfriend gave the tour alone. The police asked me to call her because one of her purses was lying on the floor open and they wanted to know if she had credit cards or money in the purse. She is currently staying at her sister's home 4 days a week until we are able to sublet because her commute is so long. She was not here for the incident) Surprisingly, the officer declined to take the information. I felt like they were not taken the situation as seriously as I expected.



Items stolen:

Xbox 360 Premium (and everything with it)
PSP
A few DVDs
My entertainment center is also damaged.


I'm so angry because as I replay the event in my head I feel like I should have done more. I should have pursued him relentlessly, moved faster, creeped up behind him...something. But everything happened so fast, and even with the adrenaline I felt like I was in some sort of dream. Still, I can't help but feel that I somehow fucked up. Every time I think of this bastard using my electronics it enrages me. I hope to God he gets a red light of death within an hour of using the system for which I now have a useles @#$# warranty.

I'm HOPING my renter's insurance covers my loss. The back screen door was torn open, but the glass door showed no clear signs of forced entry. If my insurance uses that as some form of technicality to refuse payment, I think I'll lose it. I don't have alot of money at the moment and I'm trying to save up for an engagement ring. Rebuying the 360 and its accessories would be especially painful. One final problem is that my girlfriend ABSOLUTLEY refuses to live here anymore, especially since I work on second shift. I'm not sure what we can do about our living arrangement because the lease is until next July. I can't buy her a dog because they are not allowed in our complex.

A few quick questions for you all (and this is how it relates to console gaming :) )

1) Is there any way to track the hardware serial numbers of an xbox system via Live?
2) Does EBGames track serial numbers of items reported as stolen before offering trade-in value?
3) Does anyone know how often a thief will attempt to second try a home after a thwarted encounter? He clearly knows that there is still an HDTV, DVD player and computer for the taking.
4) I'd REALLY love to hear other people's stories if they were in any similar such situation. Misery loves company

What really upsets me is my perspective on the issue. Instead of being grateful for being alive and unhurt, I'm livid that they got away with about $1000 in electronics. My mind refuses to let me center on the positive side of the scenario. I should be repeating the mantra "I'm alive, I'm unhurt and most of my stuff is intact." I don't even feel violated,which is everyone's usual question. I'm just furious over my material losses.

Thanks

[Houngan]

In all seriousness, congratulations. The violation is apparently a very rough thing to go through. If all this costs you is a bit of anger and 1000$, you're very lucky. A friend of mine was broken into about two weeks ago, and was a hysterical mess for a few days, on top of losing her irreplaceable possessions.

From a security standpoint., get a dog, gun, and police bar.

H.

edit: ah, glossed over the GF problems. Looks like you'll be dealing with the bad side after all. Alarm systems usually work to calm down the womenfolk.

[Dante Rising]

I'm going to try damned hard to get a dog, but our landlords don't allow them. I've left them a message, hoping they will be sympathetic to the problem. Unfortunately, they tend to be very rigid, as we are in a college town and things get out of control fairly easily unless you use a heavy hand.

We've also been trying to sublet, but now it becomes a real hassle. My girlfriend doesn't want to be involved in it any longer, doesn't even want to be here alone, and I have no time to do tours. I don't think we can break our lease, so it becomes complicated.

[Stroker Ace]

I wonder if you can't just break your lease and move now that this has happened.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Don't get a gun unless you're dedicated to learning how to handle it properly and still want one after a few months (and the freaky-deakiness of the event) have passed and you've calmed down some.

[Raife]

Don't be too hard on yourself for how you handled it. You woke up to see a stranger sneaking around in your hallway. That's not something most people expect to have to deal with.

[Enidigm]

The problem with these events is that you dont know the lay of the situation. If you're certain that X assailent is armed with Y, and you've got Z, and there are no other variables, being the 'man' seems like an attractive solution. Then the second guy you never saw shoots you in the back of your head as your running in the field, and then they go upstairs and murder your girlfriend. Always play defensively, don't be in a rush to go save the day.

However, if these guys were homicidal, i imagine you would have been confronted with a gun rather than someone running away, if that's any comfort.

I HATE lights. Man, kill the inside lights, turn the outside lights on. You want to know what they're doing, and they don't need to know what you're doing.

Police have become all but useless in anything less than a rape or murder case. Stolen property is virually never recovered, and the culture of the "footwork" side of detective work in non-violent crimes has all but evaporated.

Get a hidden motion activated IR camera. That's really the only way people are caught nowadays. And get a pit bull. My sister has a pit bull, and has told me every duplex on her block has been broken into except hers. Ancedotal evidance aside, i'm sure most studies show a very strong corrolation between dogs and reducing crime.

That's why Dogs > Cats. Dogs 4 l1f3.

[Stroker Ace]

And get a pit bull.Be sure to chain it to a stake in the front yard, yell from the couch when it barks during the game, and beat it twice as often as you feed it.

[Enidigm]

Be sure to chain it to a stake in the front yard, yell from the couch when it barks during the game, and beat it twice as often as you feed it.

Look i hate the breed, i think they are a terrible danger if the owners are not responsible. But the types that like to break into houses and steal stuff are deathly afraid of pits as well (no doubt because they spend their weekends betting on illicit dogfights and have seen them in action!).

[Backov]

A little more anecdotal on Pitbulls..

The only ones I have met have been gentle because their masters didn't beat them. That said, I used to rassle with my dads Dobie and Rottweiler at the same time and kick their asses..

But that Pitbull of my uncles - I couldn't even move the thing, much less throw it around like I could with the other dogs. I'm not afraid of dogs, but I wouldn't want one of those big males on me without a very good weapon in my hand.

In conclusion: You'd have to be insane to break into a house with a Pit in it.

[Balasarius]

Look i hate the breed, i think they are a terrible danger if the owners are not responsible.
Or, even if the owners ARE responsible. That's what makes them so dangerous - they're highly unpredictable.

My co-worker's wife was attacked by a pit bull. It was licking her face seconds before the attack.

To the OP - sorry for your loss. I should probably buy a baseball bat or something. Scariest moment of my adult life was when I thought someone was in the house. Fortunately, there wasn't.

[ElGuapo]

I hope no one ever breaks into my house in the middle of the night.

Are you looking forward to laughing and shaking your head at a bravado statement here?

Nope, I think I'd fucking shit myself. I can't believe you had the presence of mind to chase the guy. I scream like a girl when I get suprised like that.

[SlyFrog]

I imagine it is natural to feel like you did something wrong, but the only thing I can say is that you did a hell of a lot more than I probably would have. Do what you need to keep yourself safe. I doubt you are trained (as most people, including me, are not) to handle this type of situation. Even people who are trained can still freak out, etc., when the time actually comes to put the training to the test. You managed to run someone out of your house without getting shot, stabbed, or otherwise mangled. That's about as many points as you can score under that particular scenario, I think. The only thing I worry about is your safety; everyone can decide their own tolerance for risk, but you did take a risk going after him (then again, I don't know if you were trapped in your room yourself, etc., so maybe it was your only choice).

As others have been saying, use your overburdened mind in a constructive way now to figure out how to keep this from happening again (without going to the nutso side and setting up spring loaded guns or buying $50K worth of security cameras or something).

[DeepT]

My co-worker's wife was attacked by a pit bull. It was tasting her face seconds before the attack.
-- Fixed

[Houngan]

I've done a lot of research since my friend's house was broken into, and it's pretty bleak, frankly. How did they get through the door?

Anyway, doors are shit in general. About the only way to get an effective deterrent from entry is to go with security doors/grates on all entry points. I've gotten mixed messages about hardening wooden doors, some say it works, some say it doesn't make a bit of difference.

Dogs are more than anecdotally great, they are altogether proven great, just as noise machines. Burglars are lazy, and they will pass by a house with a dog, because there are 50,000 other houses to try in every city that don't have one.

If you want cheap, effective security without becoming more dangerous yourself, here's the easy way:

Police bar at night. Simple, but incredibly effective. There are standalone units and built-in units, but either will defeat nearly anyone who isn't aware of the bar and pretty damn sharp. Again, you're not going to stop everyone, you're just looking to make the neighbors more attractive targets.

Alarm system. Cheapies can be had that will throw a hellish alarm, again hopefully scaring off the burglar. Won't work against the Phantom, but will work well against most others. They come with little remotes to deactivate.

That should protect you from 98% of everyone that wants to break into your apartment. The other 2% are going to get in no matter what you do, so don't sweat it.

H.

[Slainte Mhath]

Any large breed dog will usually work to deter burglars. Even known "gentle" breeds like labs still look big and scary to people not sure of thier temperment.

You did the right thing. Chasing that guy down could easily have gotten you killed. Once he flees the house he feels "safe", but if you chase him then he needs to escalate to violence to get you to back off, and you have no idea if he had a gun, knife or what in his possesion.

You're in for a tough time with the GF. Nothing short of the security alarm someone else mentioned will make her feel OK, and maybe not even that. As for a second visit, that is entirely possible, but highly unlikely during the night again as the guy knows you're there and you're crazy enough to chase him with a sword. He'd be more likely to come back sometime he knows you're not home. Best bet is to get a bar to drop in place that jams the sliding glass door, and leave as many exterior lights on as possible, install some if you don't have many. Motion sensing lights are great for this.

[Guido Jones]

Or, even if the owners ARE responsible. That's what makes them so dangerous - they're highly unpredictable.

Jesus christ, no they aren't. I've owned two Pit Bulls, and while my last one might have mauled you to death if you'd tried to hurt me, my current one is scared of fucking Pugs.

My Incredibly vicious pitbull, for reference (http://www.cultofnyarlathotep.com/guidoj/amber1.JPG)

[Houngan]

Any large breed dog will usually work to deter burglars. Even known "gentle" breeds like labs still look big and scary to people not sure of thier temperment.

You did the right thing. Chasing that guy down could easily have gotten you killed. Once he flees the house he feels "safe", but if you chase him then he needs to escalate to violence to get you to back off, and you have no idea if he had a gun, knife or what in his possesion.

You're in for a tough time with the GF. Nothing short of the security alarm someone else mentioned will make her feel OK, and maybe not even that. As for a second visit, that is entirely possible, but highly unlikely during the night again as the guy knows you're there and you're crazy enough to chase him with a sword. He'd be more likely to come back sometime he knows you're not home. Best bet is to get a bar to drop in place that jams the sliding glass door, and leave as many exterior lights on as possible, install some if you don't have many. Motion sensing lights are great for this.

And not to mention, once you chased him out of your home, any violence you did to him would be actionable. I believe there is quite a bit of precedent for this, and you would almost certainly lose the civil/criminal suit.

H.

[Raife]

Was your sliding door unlocked, or don't you know? You can probably get the landlord to add some extra security measures, regardless. One that I'd recommend is a motion-sensing light. A really bright one.

If they broke in, your landlord should change the lock system there. Also get one of those bars that you lay in the door track. If it was unlocked, chalk it up to experience and start locking it.

If your GF can see some obvious increases to security, she may come around.

[Bill Dungsroman]

You can get a sliding door bar for like under a 20-spot at Lowe's. It's adjustable!

[Gary Whitta]

What's a police bar?

[Dante Rising]

New addition to the event:

On another board someone recommended that I run down to EB and Gamestop and give them the serial number of my system. I just got back and when I arrive home I see that my damned front door is slightly OPEN. The first thing that ran through my mind was "I can't believe the fucker is back again." I go out to my car, get a tire iron, feel my pulse rising, have my finger on 911 SEND, and rush in expecting to be vindicated. Instead I find a maintenance man putting a new screen door on the back of the house, along with a new bar-lock that holds the sliding door shut.

My first words to him once I realize that the landlord had sent him over: "Damn, I can't tell if I'm happy or pissed to see you."

He looks at the tire iron. "I'd prefer it if you were happy."

I'm surprised to see how quickly my landlord has responded to the incident. They changed the screen, gave me a locking bar, increased the wattage of the bulb in the back lamp, and put a better lock on the sliding door. Now I wish he'd just let me know if I could buy a dog. As I mentioned before they are not allowed here, but I've had dogs all my life. I'm personally partial to German Shepherds.

<edit> Looking back, rushing into the house was not very wise. For all I know, the thief could have realized that I saw his face, and was coming back to fix that messy detail. It is a longshot, but stranger things have happened.



I've done a lot of research since my friend's house was broken into, and it's pretty bleak, frankly. How did they get through the door?

He tore the screen open and unlocked the screen door. The sliding glass door showed no signs of forced entry, buy I'm reasonably certain it was locked. The police said the locks on those doors are laughably easy to overcome. In his own words, "If you tug hard enough they'll sometimes open. Buy a bar and wedge it in the track."

[Backov]

What's a police bar?

A pub where cops hang out. It deters crime.

[Ben]

Looks like I've got about a day to rob Whitta's house.

[Backov]

He may not be able to get the kegs installed for a day or two.

[Rob Beschizza]

I know you want a big-ass dog, but all you really need is loud 'n' territorial. Even the incessant yapping of some miniature excrement machine is going to be enough to ward off evil, or at least wake you up before it's carted off the blinkenlights.

[olaf]

Go with the dog, german shepherd is a great breed IMO for a pet and for a deterrent. If the landlord says no, move out.

[Dante Rising]

Do I need an alcohol license to get one of those police bars? :)

I called MS and reported the 360 system stolen. Remarkably, they were very responsive and asked for the serial number, investigating officer name and phone number, and case number. I'm not expecting this to lead anywhere, but you never know.

[Shadarr]

I'm surprised to see how quickly my landlord has responded to the incident. They changed the screen, gave me a locking bar, increased the wattage of the bulb in the back lamp, and put a better lock on the sliding door. Now I wish he'd just let me know if I could buy a dog. As I mentioned before they are not allowed here, but I've had dogs all my life. I'm personally partial to German Shepherds.
They probably really want to keep you there. Maybe not enough to change the dog rule, but if it really is mostly students in the complex, then they're probably making a special effort to make you happy. As a non-student, you pay your rent on time and don't have loud parties and aren't likely to move out at the end of semester. If you really push on the dog issue and tell them you're going to break your lease and move next month, they may give in.

[SlyFrog]

They probably really want to keep you there. Maybe not enough to change the dog rule, but if it really is mostly students in the complex, then they're probably making a special effort to make you happy. As a non-student, you pay your rent on time and don't have loud parties and aren't likely to move out at the end of semester. If you really push on the dog issue and tell them you're going to break your lease and move next month, they may give in.

No, they more likely want to show that they reasonably responded to what happened in an event to limit their liability to any future incidents that result in personal injury or property damage. There are plenty of, "You knew that someone had been mugged in this poorly lit area, but you didn't even install better lighting," lawsuits when someone else gets beaten, raped, or killed down the road.

In other words, CYA time.

Sorry to be so brutal about it, part of it may be just a nice guy landlord, but it is more likely the above in my opinion. All of the stuff you were talking about could have been done before the robbery if he was just a good guy.

On the other hand, you could suggest to the landlord that the negligently inflicted emotional damage you suffered from the robbery, caused by the shoddy locks and security, could be at least partially mitigated by having a dog. :)

[Shadarr]

You may be right. I've just been reading about investing in real estate recently, and everybody says you should do whatever you have to to keep your good tenants happy.

[Dante Rising]

Thank you for the replies, everyone. My friend just called and I told him the story, mentioning that some part of me still wishes I had chased the guy further. His first response was, "So...if you DID run into the corn field after him, how did you expect to swing a friggin' blunt sword around with all those tall stalks in your way? Wrong tool for the job, man."


Gee, thanks. Next time I'll just whip out my John Deere combine:

http://www.deere.com/en_US/ProductCatalog/FR/series/combine_900_draper.html

[Dave Markell]

Any large breed dog will usually work to deter burglars. Even known "gentle" breeds like labs still look big and scary to people not sure of thier temperment.

QFT. Both of my dogs are absolute sweethearts, but both are also VERY dedicated to alarm barking. If anyone approaches our home, I usually know about it long before the doorbell rings. Neither would attack a stranger without reason, but they're guaranteed to let us know a stranger is there. One of them sounds particularly menancing, too--his alarm bark and growl is loud, deep, and angry. I suspect that alone would warn most intruders off. As a backup, or for when we're all out of the house, we have an alarm system.

Summary: get a dog, get an alarm system. After that, consider arming yourself if you still feel unsafe and are willing to learn the weapon (display swords don't count, btw :-) ).

[Steve Canyon]

What's a police bar?

It's a bar you wedge into your door and the floor to keep the police from easily breaking down your door with a battering ram.

[Kyle Wilson]

As many have said, dogs and lights are best, guns are only useful if you're willing to put in the time to learn how to use them, and you behaved very well under the circumstances.

If your apartment won't let you have a dog, perhaps you could try an attack cat:

http://k43.pbase.com/v3/22/332522/1/47697812.BootsAttackCat.jpg

[Rob Beschizza]

guns are only useful if you're willing to put in the time to learn how to use them,

And, surely, to be ready to actually use the gun. "Get out of my house or I'll wave it menacingly at you!" probably won't cut it.

So, it seems to me one shouldn't buy a gun unless you're emotionally prepared to kill someone with it. For me, this is a very good reason not to have one, as I'd rather see someone walk out my house with some trivial, insured consumer items than put myself in a position where I might end up killing someone.

This isn't about them, mind you. I'd be perfectly happy to buy an ED-209, call it Rover and give him a nice rug in front of the fire. I just really rather not like to go to my grave knowing I sent someone to theirs.

[SlyFrog]

So, it seems to me one shouldn't buy a gun unless you're emotionally prepared to kill someone with it. For me, this is a very good reason not to have one, as I'd rather see someone walk out my house with some trivial, insured consumer items than put myself in a position where I might end up killing someone.

To be fair, you can own a gun and still let someone walk out of your house with some trivial, insured consumer items. You could certainly remain holed up in your own room, to use it if they come in after you.

I think the anti-gun lobby has created a bit of a caricature. Sure, some gun owners may just be waiting to blow away the first teenage kid who tries to run off with their lawn ornament. But in a case like the OP, the guy went upstairs, and as far as we know, could have been going into all of the rooms. That's very aggressive behavior, and some people might feel a little better knowing that they had a gun to protect themself in that circumstance.

I guess I'm not saying it very well, but it would be nice if you could ensure that if you didn't have a gun, the most someone would do is walk off with some of your stuff. Unfortunately, you can't ensure that.

[shift6]

I called MS and reported the 360 system stolen. Remarkably, they were very responsive and asked for the serial number, investigating officer name and phone number, and case number. I'm not expecting this to lead anywhere, but you never know.
Chin up, bro. Stolen laptops are starting to be returned to owners with increasing frequency as the IQ of thieves drops and they attempt to use online services, send them for warranty work, etc. I can't think of any reason someone won't try and use the XBox360 on Live and now you've got a hit at the least for recovery (if not for re-heating the investigation).

BTW I just want to say it would have been completely awesome if you had made the thief submit (wait for police, etc) using a samurai sword.


And, surely, to be ready to actually use the gun. "Get out of my house or I'll wave it menacingly at you!" probably won't cut it.

So, it seems to me one shouldn't buy a gun unless you're emotionally prepared to kill someone with it. For me, this is a very good reason not to have one, as I'd rather see someone walk out my house with some trivial, insured consumer items than put myself in a position where I might end up killing someone.
There's something to be said for the persuasive power of noise. Racking a shotgun is a noise that everyone recognizes, and will motivate an invader to leave with the quickness. And it is easy to pick one up at a gun store (no license needed in most states since it is a "long rifle"), and you don't have to buy ammo if you aren't comfortable with that.

[BaconTastesGood]

Don't get a gun unless you're dedicated to learning how to handle it properly and still want one after a few months (and the freaky-deakiness of the event) have passed and you've calmed down some.

You know Bill, I've seen a trend, and I'm not saying this is you, but so often people who own guns have this attitude of like, hey, I know how to use one but you don't and never will and for God's sakes get some training so you're l337 like me. I'm just sayin' I've seen this before, you know, on other internet forums.

[Qenan]

A little more anecdotal on Pitbulls..

The only ones I have met have been gentle because their masters didn't beat them. That said, I used to rassle with my dads Dobie and Rottweiler at the same time and kick their asses..

But that Pitbull of my uncles - I couldn't even move the thing, much less throw it around like I could with the other dogs. I'm not afraid of dogs, but I wouldn't want one of those big males on me without a very good weapon in my hand.

In conclusion: You'd have to be insane to break into a house with a Pit in it.

If I lived next door and had kids, it wouldn't live long.

[Enidigm]

Jesus christ, no they aren't. I've owned two Pit Bulls, and while my last one might have mauled you to death if you'd tried to hurt me, my current one is scared of fucking Pugs.

My Incredibly vicious pitbull, for reference (http://www.cultofnyarlathotep.com/guidoj/amber1.JPG)

That's actually a very funny photo to post in this particular thread since it's about theft, dogs as deterrence, and here you have a pit framed by nothing but electronic swag ... waiting to be stolen. :)

[Enidigm]

If I lived next door and had kids, it wouldn't live long.

Well, yea, it's very much a neighborhood issue, that's the problem with Pits. In fact if you decide to get one you'd better be mentally/financially in the frame of mind of at least one accidental attack. Pits are trained fighting dogs and that's the instinct that snaps when they become aggressive.

OTOH, i've heard worse about the Akita breed as far as the randomness of attacks and their overall aggressiveness, however they often lack the physical strength and "jaws of death" of Pits.

[Backov]

Well, yea, it's very much a neighborhood issue, that's the problem with Pits. In fact if you decide to get one you'd better be mentally/financially in the frame of mind of at least one accidental attack. Pits are trained fighting dogs and that's the instinct that snaps when they become aggressive

Excuse me?

They're not "trained fighting dogs" unless you FUCKING TRAIN THEM TO FIGHT.

They are dogs. They are dangerous dogs, like Mastiffs and other big ass dogs. But they are not violent killing machines unless you make them into one.

This hysteria is bullshit.

[Enidigm]

Excuse me?

They're not "trained fighting dogs" unless you FUCKING TRAIN THEM TO FIGHT.

They are dogs. They are dangerous dogs, like Mastiffs and other big ass dogs. But they are not violent killing machines unless you make them into one.

This hysteria is bullshit.

Are you sure about that? How do collies know how to herd if they've never been trained to do it? My collie mix would try to herd cattle though all she had ever done in her life was sleep on beds.

I think scientists have identified something like six or seven basic canine instincts that the various breeds and breeders over the years have selectively fostered at the expence of others.

I don't doubt most Pit Bulls are fine, and that much of their reputation comes from their physical size, but i'm fairly sure (off the top of my head) Pits have been bred with an inherent fighting instinct.

[K0NY]

If you felt comfortable enough to chase the dude with a dull samurai sword, I say get a sharp one and take some Ninjitsu lessons. That way, you can implement the traditional punishment of removing a limb for any future thievery.

The martial arts classes will give you an outlet for some of that anger you're feeling and hopefully teach you some skills to back up your urge to attack. If you include your girlfriend and take the classes together, she may develop enough confidence to feel safe without having to move.

Alarms and dogs can be disabled. You can be killed by a prepared intruder. If you're willing to overlook those facts and go after the bad guys, the best thing you can do is prepare yourself physically and mentally with some form of training.

[Guido Jones]

Pit Bulls were bred to fight dogs - and you do have to be careful with them around dogs. They were not bred to fight people, and are actually incredibly people friendly.

You can google around and find this information on your own, but check out here to start: http://www.rescueeverydog.org/pitbull_breed.html

Also, this place (http://www.atts.org/statistics.html) has some statistics on agression - American Staffordshire Terriers/American Pit Bull Terrier passed about 83% of the time, around the same as Golden Retrievers (although a slightly smaller sample size).

I'm sorry for screwing up your thread requesting advice on what to do about someone breaking into your home. I just hate when jackasses on the internet spout off about things they don't know about. If anyone wants to continue the Pit Bull discussion, I request you make a new thread.

[SlyFrog]

Pit Bulls were bred to fight dogs - and you do have to be careful with them around dogs. They were not bred to fight people, and are actually incredibly people friendly.

I thought I read somewhere that they were actually used to keep cattle in line as well, and that the lockjaw reflex was used in part to bite bulls on the nose and keep clamped down no matter how hard they got shook.

Probably too specific (animals probably don't evolve to bite bull noses :), but I always found it kind of cool.

[Guido Jones]

That whole lock jaw thing is a myth.

[RichVR]

Canine "nature vs. nurture", wow can threads evolve or what?

[Dante Rising]

BTW I just want to say it would have been completely awesome if you had made the thief submit (wait for police, etc) using a samurai sword.

I think I've played this exact scene over a hundred times in my head since yesterday.

I have a friend who works in the city's police force, but he was not on duty yesterday. This evening he stopped by my house to see how I was doing. He already knew what happened (I'm assuming at the shift start briefing) and he agreed with most of you here that to continue chasing the thief outside was not a good idea because:

1) Most of the home invasions/thefts in our area involve two to three individuals. One or two do most of the heavy lifting while another acts as a sentry. He said that most likely there were two people in my house, but I never saw the second person because he or she evacuated while I was still upstairs. If they regrouped while I was in pursuit, I may have been caught in a very dangerous situation.

2) If I had caught up to the thief and used the sword, I would most likely be involved in a very messy civil suit. If I injured him I could be sued. Even if I killed him his family could still take everything I own in a lawsuit since he had already fled from my property. Strangely, the fact that I have renter's insurance could at that point actually be a liability because there was no good reason to give chase, since everything that was stolen would be replaced.

[VegasRobb]

Remember if you get an alarm system to use those little signs and stickers they give you. Also, the motion sensor lights are a really good idea.

Glad you're okay.

[Dave Markell]

so often people who own guns have this attitude of like, hey, I know how to use one but you don't and never will and for God's sakes get some training so you're l337 like me.

This makes no sense. If I felt that someone "didn't know how to use a gun and never would", why would I tell them to get training? The fact is that, without training, a gun is potentially more dangerous to its owner than anyone else. At the very least, gun users need to know how to do all of the following in a safe fashion:

--load and unload the weapon
--carry the weapon
--disassemble, clean, and reassemble the weapon
--clear jammed cartridges
--hit their target a reasonable percentage of the time

Developing these skills isn't that hard, but it does require consistent effort and a fairly significant time committment. If that's how you define l337, then okay, I'm l337--but you can be l337 too.

[wildpokerman]

There's something to be said for the persuasive power of noise. Racking a shotgun is a noise that everyone recognizes, and will motivate an invader to leave with the quickness. And it is easy to pick one up at a gun store (no license needed in most states since it is a "long rifle"), and you don't have to buy ammo if you aren't comfortable with that.

Whoah, not buying ammo for your gun is just begging to get shot, usually by the time you're racking the shotgun the other guy has a gun or a knife out and you want to be loaded up by then not just waving around an expensive baseball bat.

[nutsak]

I got robbed

If it's possible get yourself some motion sensing lights and an alarm system because those guys will probably be back. Not to scare you but thieves tend to return to targets they've hit before. The only thing that might stop them is that you interupted them the first time. Also enjoy the new found paranoia you're more than likely to experience.

[ScurvyPig]

Pitbulls were bred to bait Bulls. Period. It was a very sporty gambling game in Europe for a long time and no matter what the "Breeds" pages tell you, that is what they were made for. They aren't large, their barks are sort of weak but they will attack and two are all that is needed to bring down a cow.

If you decided to breed John Rocker and then took his offspring and bred only the most obnoxious and aggressive ones and then bred THEM with his (and theirs) only most obnoxious and aggressive ones you end up with pitbulls. It is sad that you will occasionally end up with a perfectly harmless wallflower out of this awful offspring that no one will touch, but breeds do count. Pitbulls need to be bred out of existence so they can be trusted. Like Petey, from the Little Rascals...he was cute and definately a Pit mutt.

Just get a large, harmless breed. They might just wag their tail and want to play ball with any intruder but the intruder needs to first calculate what the hell is making that terrifying noise.

[Destarius]

I think I've played this exact scene over a hundred times in my head since yesterday.

I have a friend who works in the city's police force, but he was not on duty yesterday. This evening he stopped by my house to see how I was doing. He already knew what happened (I'm assuming at the shift start briefing) and he agreed with most of you here that to continue chasing the thief outside was not a good idea because:...

That's pretty damned good advice your friend gave you.

[BaconTastesGood]

This makes no sense.

Sorry Dave, didn't mean to confuse -- it was a sarcastic reference to another thread just like this one that BillD and myself were in.

[Robert Sharp]

I remember that thread, BTG. Anyway, not to reopen old issues, but guns aren't as hard to use as some of you make them out to be. I agree that just buying a gun if you have never shot one before is a bad idea. But you don't have to be able to take apart and reassemble a gun to be able to use one as a defense weapon in case of emergencies.

Now if you plan to go people hunting......

But this thread reminds me of something. Can I put a GPS device in my PC in case it is stolen? This is a serious question. Aren't they rather cheap now, and wouldn't this be a pretty good way to ensure that I would be able to recover it in case of theft?

[Aszurom]

The thing about a dog is that even a small dog is going to go apeshit when someone starts rattling a door latch in the middle of the night. That's your cue to start flipping on lights. Thief goes away really fast.

My dogs are so nice, they'd probably offer to help the thief carry out the loot - but after dark if someone walks on the other side of the street, they could be at the back of the house and know it, run to the window and bark a few times. How they can hear someone walking outside a couple hundred feet away like that is pretty wild, and in the middle of the night with someone right at the door they're not going to let up until I come see what's going on or the person has been gone at least 5 minutes.

My sister-in-law's fairly expensive mountain bike has been parked in front of my garage door for about a week and a half now. If any kids were going to mess with anything in the neighborhood, you'd think that would be target #1, because it's pretty much on a silver platter. However... it's still right there. I guess that's an advantage to small rural town living, eh?

Also, if you get a shotgun - and really, I recommend a shotgun over anything else for home defense for multiple reasons - remember to keep it where you can have your hand on it on the way from the bed to the bedroom door. Like, behind the nightstand, stock up, so you can just swing it up and be ready to rock. You don't want to inadvertently arm your intruder by keeping a gun next to the door, for instance. Now, as far as the whole "You should learn to use a gun, take some training classes" bullshit goes... just go buy a damn shotgun. 12 guage is standard. If you can point a broom stick at someone and say "bang" then you can use a 12 guage. Don't ever point it anywhere but at the ground, and never put your finger on the trigger unless you intend to pull it. Buy bird shot instead of buck shot, and open the choke on the barrel so it spreads as much as it can. This lessens the odds of causing a fatal hit if you're concerned about that. They'll never come back after you do that once. And feel free to send a few blasts after them as they run off into that corn field. You don't have to hit anything... they're running scared and they hear BOOM BOOM BOOM behind them. You'll never see them again.

You see, where I grew up on the borders of Amish Ohio, it wasn't uncommon to get shot in the ass with a barrel full of rock salt if you were fucking around on someone's property. Say, screwing with their yard decorations. Setting up their ceramic deer in "mating poses" for instance. Now, as you're jumping over the fence and you hear the ka-chak BOOM of their shotgun half a second before 10 hornets hit you in the ass and back of the legs you're reconsidering your decision to be there. It's chunks of salt, so it absolutely burns like hell and for a good long time until you get your mom to dig it out - but if she misses any, you're not going to die from lead poisoning.

Uncle Yaeger says "Use rocksalt if'n they is kids. Birdshot or small buck if you don' wanna kill 'em. Slugs if they're crackheads."

** If you want to go SUPER cheap but effective, get some silver 1/4 inch tape, and put it around the window panes. Then put a "Protected by Ajax Alarm Systems" sticker in each window. Put the keypad from an old telephone inset into the wall by the front and back door. Get a couple of NRA stickers and a POW/MIA flag and proudly display them in plain sight. You'll never have any issues. Not even Jehova's Witnesses.

[Karen]

Iut this thread reminds me of something. Can I put a GPS device in my PC in case it is stolen? This is a serious question. Aren't they rather cheap now, and wouldn't this be a pretty good way to ensure that I would be able to recover it in case of theft?

Only if you have some sort of tracking software that would send the location information to you (or someone else) in case of theft. Plain Jane GPS receivers are passive devices, they just receive the satellite signals and compute position reporting the information back to you. In theory you could use either a seperate transmitter to send out the information or use the internet to send out a message over the web.

I'm guessing you would have to wait until the pc was connected to the internet, and then it would have to send out a message (without being detected). I'm not sure how you would trigger the GPS to start aquiring and retransmitting the data. --Perhaps would want some sort of accelerometer to act as the trigger. If the PC is moved, it would start tracking.... when the PC was connected to the web - the log would be sent out. Of course, everything would have to work correctly, and the thief would have to be stupid enough to 1) not find the GPS module, 2) Connect to the web. Actually a stolen PC could probably be tracked via the IP address of the thief pretty easily, thus making the whole GPS thing moot. What you would want was a way for the stolen PC to 'ping' you when it was stolen.... Or, you to ping it.

[Dave Markell]

But you don't have to be able to take apart and reassemble a gun to be able to use one as a defense weapon in case of emergencies.

Actually, you do. In order to feel comfortable with any gun, you're going to have to practice with it. This will necessitate cleaning it regularly, and good cleanings involve a certain amount of disassembly, especially for pistols. Dirty guns are not dependable--they're much more likely to misfire, which is the last thing you want in an emergency situation, and they're also less accurate.

[Robert Sharp]

Thanks, Karen, but I'm a bit unclear here. People talk about tagging children with those things under the skin, so they could be tracked if kidnapped, lost, whatever. Why can't I do the same thing with my PC?

[Robert Sharp]

Actually, you do. In order to feel comfortable with any gun, you're going to have to practice with it. This will necessitate cleaning it regularly, and good cleanings involve a certain amount of disassembly, especially for pistols. Dirty guns are not dependable--they're much more likely to misfire, which is the last thing you want in an emergency situation, and they're also less accurate.

Fair enough, but you could go to a firing range and use the same type of gun to practice. And different pistols aren't so radically different that you couldn't be familiar with guns and not know how to take apart the particular one you have.

Anyway, none of this is overly complicated stuff. That's all I really meant.

[Alan Au]

I'm amused by all of this "dog as security system" talk. That's like recommending that they have kids so that they qualify for the tax deduction. What ever happened to "dog as companion"?

- Alan

[Brendan]

A similar thing happened to me not so long ago and I posted about it.

I was slightly freaked out for about a week (I'm a bit of a pussy.) before we moved to our new house. (The move was planned beforehand.) It sucks.

Good to see your landlord is being responsive. Make sure you get burglar guards on your upstairs windows as well.

[Dave Markell]

I'm amused by all of this "dog as security system" talk. That's like recommending that they have kids so that they qualify for the tax deduction. What ever happened to "dog as companion"?

- Alan

Oh, that's what my dogs are, no doubt. "Security system" is just bonus. After all, humanity and caninity have enjoyed a symbiotic, you-scratch-my-ears-I'll-bark-at-intruders relationship for tens of thousands of years. Why not take advantage of the whole package?

[Steve Canyon]

You see, where I grew up on the borders of Amish Ohio, it wasn't uncommon to get shot in the ass with a barrel full of rock salt if you were fucking around on someone's property. Say, screwing with their yard decorations. Setting up their ceramic deer in "mating poses" for instance. Now, as you're jumping over the fence and you hear the ka-chak BOOM of their shotgun half a second before 10 hornets hit you in the ass and back of the legs you're reconsidering your decision to be there. It's chunks of salt, so it absolutely burns like hell and for a good long time until you get your mom to dig it out - but if she misses any, you're not going to die from lead poisoning.


Ha, I remember this!

I never got a blast in the ass, but this was the threat for stealing corn from the farmer's field by my house. We husked the corn and threw handfulls at people on Halloween night. Wasn't really worth a shot of salt in the ass to throw handfulls of dry corn at people, but we did it because it was exciting and we were utterly board growing up in south central PA.

[ScurvyPig]

Oh, that's what my dogs are, no doubt. "Security system" is just bonus. After all, humanity and caninity have enjoyed a symbiotic, you-scratch-my-ears-I'll-bark-at-intruders relationship for tens of thousands of years. Why not take advantage of the whole package?

Exactly, Dave. And so much more for the ear scratching.

"sniff"

I love dogs.

[Houngan]

Oog. Lots of iffy advice in this thread, at least as far as firearms are concerned.

Shotguns: Not good for home defense. Good for deterrence, good for killing with one shot, but they are lousy at everything else. They don't spread appreciably inside a typical house, they cut through walls like butter, they're very hard to corner with, and very easy to take away from someone. A handgun is a much better defensive weapon, provided you know how to use it.

As for field-stripping and cleaning, a Glock out of the box will go at least 2000 rounds without a failure, provided there isn't any manufacturer or magazine defect. Of course you should know how to break it down and clean it (which with most pistols involves mechanics that a two-year-old could figure out, if they had the strength) but modern guns are incredibly reliable.

Also, guns are for killing (though they are good for something else) so please don't be one of the "the sound of a gun is all I need" people. You pull it, be ready to use it, and know the consequences. Massad Ayoob's "The Truth About Self-Protection" is a must-read for anyone who is considering home defense.

Further, depending on where you live, you would want (need) to get a concealed carry license. It is a very good thing to have come court time if you shoot someone. Ayoob has a lot of good advice on how to set up home defense so that you not only survive, but win the trial as well.

H.

[Robert Sharp]

Oog. Lots of iffy advice in this thread, at least as far as firearms are concerned.
H.

Thank you. You get to stand on my side of the thread, where we will wield our pistols wildly, and in relative ignorance!

[Enidigm]

Yes, that's good advice Hougan.

I'm not "one of those" kinds of gun owners; i ostensibly own a very nice .30-06 rifle, although i've never shot it, but i've lived around guns - and the people whom love them - all my life.

Basically real life is not like Hollywood in that if you raise a gun to aim at another person you shoot them, not wave it at them and scream wildly. Guns aren't meant to be a visible or audible deterrent, they're meant to shoot people. You don't have time to let the assailent figure out the situation completely.

This is why i'm not very keen on guns as home defence and would prefer a dog. A gun lover, well, of course they've got a gun in every sock drawer and can hit you in the eye from 200 yars away off-hand; but for Mr. and Mrs. Suburbia i think the chance that a firearm would be used positively is much less than it being used by others (or your own family) negatively.

[Houngan]

Yes, that's good advice Hougan.

I'm not "one of those" kinds of gun owners; i ostensibly own a very nice .30-06 rifle, although i've never shot it, but i've lived around guns - and the people whom love them - all my life.

Basically real life is not like Hollywood in that if you raise a gun to aim at another person you shoot them, not wave it at them and scream wildly. Guns aren't meant to be a visible or audible deterrent, they're meant to shoot people. You don't have time to let the assailent figure out the situation completely.

This is why i'm not very keen on guns as home defence and would prefer a dog. A gun lover, well, of course they've got a gun in every sock drawer and can hit you in the eye from 200 yars away off-hand; but for Mr. and Mrs. Suburbia i think the chance that a firearm would be used positively is much less than it being used by others (or your own family) negatively.


Ehn, you had me until the end. The whole "more likely to hurt you or your family" is nothing more than a stupid bogeyman to keep people from defending themselves. It is not true anecdotally, statistically, or experientially. Like drugs, dogs, cars, penises, and ovaries, guns can be misused by stupid people who don't deserve the responsibility of gun ownership, since they won't bother to meet the challenge. But, the "fact" that "they are more likely to be used against you" is utter, complete, not-even-good-enough-to-be-an-urban-legend horseshit.

H.

[Guido Jones]

Pitbulls were bred to bait Bulls. Period. It was a very sporty gambling game in Europe for a long time and no matter what the "Breeds" pages tell you, that is what they were made for. They aren't large, their barks are sort of weak but they will attack and two are all that is needed to bring down a cow.

If you decided to breed John Rocker and then took his offspring and bred only the most obnoxious and aggressive ones and then bred THEM with his (and theirs) only most obnoxious and aggressive ones you end up with pitbulls. It is sad that you will occasionally end up with a perfectly harmless wallflower out of this awful offspring that no one will touch, but breeds do count. Pitbulls need to be bred out of existence so they can be trusted. Like Petey, from the Little Rascals...he was cute and definately a Pit mutt.

You are an idiot.

Edit: To clarify, the only thing you are accurate about is that they aren't large (normally).

[ScurvyPig]

You are an idiot.

Edit: To clarify, the only thing you are accurate about is that they aren't large (normally).

They weren't bred to bait bulls? What were they bred for? Hunting? Herding? Sight or smell hounds? Maybe lapdogs.

They are fighting dogs. Some Englishmen spent a lot of time and money to make sure they were fighting dogs. But I'm an idiot because I say there is a difference between a Cocker Spaniel and a Rottweiler.

[Enidigm]

Ehn, you had me until the end. The whole "more likely to hurt you or your family" is nothing more than a stupid bogeyman to keep people from defending themselves. It is not true anecdotally, statistically, or experientially. Like drugs, dogs, cars, penises, and ovaries, guns can be misused by stupid people who don't deserve the responsibility of gun ownership, since they won't bother to meet the challenge. But, the "fact" that "they are more likely to be used against you" is utter, complete, not-even-good-enough-to-be-an-urban-legend horseshit.

H.

I like to err on the side of caution. I don't doubt, collectively, you can show statistics overall for the nation. And just for the record, i didn't say it was a fact.

But once you take out the "responsible gun-lovers" whom like reloading their own bullets from the equation, i'd be suprised to see those whom own guns "for self defense only" have had more success at safety than the others.

What concerns me with gun ownership and it's safety is the threat of having them stolen. After that, kids.

[Dave Markell]

Lots of iffy advice in this thread...As for field-stripping and cleaning, a Glock out of the box will go at least 2000 rounds without a failure, provided there isn't any manufacturer or magazine defect. Of course you should know how to break it down and clean it (which with most pistols involves mechanics that a two-year-old could figure out, if they had the strength) but modern guns are incredibly reliable.

I strongly disagree with this. Every firearms instructor or manual recommends, in no uncertain terms, a thorough cleaning of your gun after every use. "Use" can be 100 rounds fired at a target or 5 rounds that miss Bambi--doesn't matter. Letting metal and gunpowder residue build up inside your gun will ruin its ballistics (rounds won't spin properly, which kills their accuracy) and increase the risk of a misfire. Calling "clean your gun" iffy advice is, well, iffier.

[Rywill]

Thanks, Karen, but I'm a bit unclear here. People talk about tagging children with those things under the skin, so they could be tracked if kidnapped, lost, whatever. Why can't I do the same thing with my PC?

I think you may be confusing GPS and RFID chips. RFIDs can be read through the skin by an RFID reader, so people put them in pets (and I suppose you could put them in your kids, although I've never heard of that) so that if they get away and are later found, the authorities / hospital / whatever can contact the owner. It's like a super-identification that the animal (or kid) is always carrying. But it doesn't help you find something, and wouldn't do any good for a kidnapped child (unless the kidnapper took the kid to a doctor or someone that scanned them with an RFID reader).

[Aszurom]

Maybe instead of getting a dog/gun/alarm he should just pray the burglars away! The power of teh jesus will protect you!

I'll keep my 2 dogs and shotgun, thanks. And as for "guns are for killing - not just the sight/sound as deterrent" you bet. Anybody inside my house will be missing an arm or leg. You don't have to aim for the chest/head with every shot you know. Shotguns excel at amputation.

[Major Malphunktion]

I got robbed a few months ago- they cleaned out my office- alienware, 20 years of games exc. It sucked.
What I did- dead bolts on all 'normal' doors- including the one to the basement.
Basement slider- which is whre they came in- slider bar- and a sign that says 'fuck off they already took everything'.
Now you get to deal with your insurance agent- weee...you get to be robbed TWICE. not a pleasant experience.

[amiller320]

I was thinking a bit about home invasions the other day. I have a new baby, so my "Protect the Family" instict is kicking in pretty strongly. I've started to make a few changes to the house to make it a bit safer -- upgraded the locks, upgraded the 100-year old non-locking windows, considering an alarm system (my dad's been in the security system biz for 40 years).

But -- what's the best option for once the intruder is inside the house? I can't just sit in my room and wait it out because I've got a kid in a different room. If there was an intruder, my first instinct would be to go protect the baby. But I'd rather not do that empty handed.

A gun is out of the question. A bat would make me feel better, but there ain't a whole lotta room to swing it inside. Maybe a cut-down bat? I guess I just don't want to be completey empty handed.

[K0NY]

Telescopic Steel Batons (http://www.betterhomesecurity.com/_Streetwise_26_Inch_Telescopic_Steel_Baton.php?ref =tmb)

[Dante Rising]

I admire those of you willing to own and use guns, but I understand my personality enough to know that I won't take the time to properly train with it, so I'm uneasy moving down that road. From most articles I've read, an untrained gun owner is more likely to bring disaster down upon himself or his family instead of an intruder.

-For the moment I'm leaning toward getting a German Shepherd and keeping my cell phone and a melee weapon next to my bed. For those of you with dogs, would it be acceptable for me to get one from an animal shelter, or should I start with a puppy? Currently an animal shelter near my home has a two year old Shepherd, and a year old Alaskan Husky. Ever dog I've ever owned I've raised since he was a pup, so I'm uncertain about buying a ready-made, full-sized dog. :)

-Does anyone have any suggestions or advice about the insurance investigation portion of the issue? How long until a claim is usually settled and paid? The insurance agent is due on Monday.

[Backov]

Get a big mutt. Purebred Shepherds can have lots of health issues due to inbreeding.

If you want a smart, great dog - adopt a mutt. If it needs to be big, adopt a big one. :)

[Robert Sharp]

I think you may be confusing GPS and RFID chips. RFIDs can be read through the skin by an RFID reader, so people put them in pets (and I suppose you could put them in your kids, although I've never heard of that) so that if they get away and are later found, the authorities / hospital / whatever can contact the owner. It's like a super-identification that the animal (or kid) is always carrying. But it doesn't help you find something, and wouldn't do any good for a kidnapped child (unless the kidnapper took the kid to a doctor or someone that scanned them with an RFID reader).

Ah, thanks for the clarification. But I'm still unclear on the actual GPS signal. Police can track my cell phone, right? What are they using? Does it have to be calling, or just on? Sorry for my complete ignorance on these things, but I really would like a way to reliably track my PC if it were to get stolen.

[Dante Rising]

Police can track your cell phone, but only within several hundred feet. If you read my first post, you'll notice that I mentioned my first call to 911 dropped. I was told that initial call would get them to my townhome complex but not to my exact address.

I'm not certain if this is a limitation of my area's police force, but it sounded as if he was talking universally.

[Houngan]

I strongly disagree with this. Every firearms instructor or manual recommends, in no uncertain terms, a thorough cleaning of your gun after every use. "Use" can be 100 rounds fired at a target or 5 rounds that miss Bambi--doesn't matter. Letting metal and gunpowder residue build up inside your gun will ruin its ballistics (rounds won't spin properly, which kills their accuracy) and increase the risk of a misfire. Calling "clean your gun" iffy advice is, well, iffier.

My shampoo recommends that I lather, rinse, and then repeat. I never repeat. My hair is very clean and nun-like.

I eat more than the recommended daily allowance of salt and fat. I am neither hypertensive or obese.

I shoot 1-2000 rounds of ammunition a month, and am a amateur pistol competitor. I shoot Glocks, previously Berettas. Time it takes to have noticeable leading inside a Glock barrel, if you are shooting anything but hand-cast lead bullets: Infinity. The barrels are so hard and smooth, and modern copper-jacketed bullets are so well made, that there is literally no leading in the barrel. Each shot cleans out the residue of the last shot, nearly entirely.

Personally I like having a clean gun, so I do clean mine after every session, which can be as many as 300 rounds. Anecdotally, I know many competitors who have loaned out a single pistol for some charity event, which then had 2-3000 rounds put through it in five or six hours by a bunch of non-shooters.

I appreciate what you're saying, but just like unprotected sex doesn't always lead to HIV or pregnancy, not cleaning a gun doesn't hurt you much these days. Now, it still should be done, but at no point should it be a reason to avoid owning a gun.

H.

p.s. Just to clarify where you are probably getting this: with cast lead bullets, you will indeed start seeing some serious issues within 100 rounds. However, if .01% of gun owners reload, then only .1% of those reloaders cast their own bullets, so it's not particularly relevant to a person who buys from the store.

[Houngan]

I admire those of you willing to own and use guns, but I understand my personality enough to know that I won't take the time to properly train with it, so I'm uneasy moving down that road. From most articles I've read, an untrained gun owner is more likely to bring disaster down upon himself or his family instead of an intruder.

-For the moment I'm leaning toward getting a German Shepherd and keeping my cell phone and a melee weapon next to my bed. For those of you with dogs, would it be acceptable for me to get one from an animal shelter, or should I start with a puppy? Currently an animal shelter near my home has a two year old Shepherd, and a year old Alaskan Husky. Ever dog I've ever owned I've raised since he was a pup, so I'm uncertain about buying a ready-made, full-sized dog. :)

-Does anyone have any suggestions or advice about the insurance investigation portion of the issue? How long until a claim is usually settled and paid? The insurance agent is due on Monday.

I'd like to see one of those articles, I have never found one in real life that actually contains any data. If you don't want a gun, fine. But a "melee weapon?" You're uncomfortable shooting someone, but hacking them to death with a sword is more palatable?

I'm not trying to be condescending, but do you know what a real sword can do? I mean with one good chop and a sharp blade. Here's a video of everyone's favorite knife-psycho, Lynn Thompson:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yhzX9GZ3qKE

That's a ribcage he's cutting through. I'm just sayin'.

Now, back to what you should do: If you don't want a gun, how about a Taser? They actually work, and you don't have to go to prison for a long time after killing someone with a Morningstar +3 vs. Homeless. A firing Taser (2 shots, 15ft range) costs about 200$. You'll also need some good handcuffs and leg cuffs, or zip ties, for after you've done the zapping. In addition, a fogger-type can of chemical mace would be a good thing as well.

H.

[cliffski]

Holy fuck, this whole thread reads like a script for a new Die Hard movie to me. maybe its different here in england. We tend to just say "I say scoundrel, stop immediately", and waggle a finger at burglars.
Actually one guy did shoot and kill some burglars in his farmhouse a few years ago (some farmers have shotguns, but generally nobody else does). he was actually sent to prison for it, but became a bit of a folk hero to many people here.
Unless your actually sleeping with a gun under your pillow, what makes you think you'll get your hands on it before the burglar does?

FWIW, I think the chances of the same guy coming back to your place after hes been chased by a samurai sword wielding maniac are slim to none. he was probably hoping to rob a terrified single woman or a portly middle aged man who snored through the night and couldnt catch him anyway. Plenty of easier pickings than you.

[Dante Rising]

I'd like to see one of those articles, I have never found one in real life that actually contains any data. If you don't want a gun, fine. But a "melee weapon?" You're uncomfortable shooting someone, but hacking them to death with a sword is more palatable?

Houngan:

The articles I've read didn't show exact graphs or charts to the best of my recollection. They were more along the lines of a child finding the gun, a marital dispute, or a misfire- basically something other than a robbery happens, the article warns of the dangers of guns, and then follows it up with a quote from a police officer parroting the same philospohy.

As my melee weapon, I was actually thinking about getting that telescopic steel baton. The samurai sword has more flair, but I think a baton or tonfa is more my speed, and less likely to put me behind bars along with the intruder.

[Robert Sharp]

Holy fuck, this whole thread reads like a script for a new Die Hard movie to me. maybe its different here in england. We tend to just say "I say scoundrel, stop immediately", and waggle a finger at burglars.
Actually one guy did shoot and kill some burglars in his farmhouse a few years ago (some farmers have shotguns, but generally nobody else does). he was actually sent to prison for it, but became a bit of a folk hero to many people here.
Unless your actually sleeping with a gun under your pillow, what makes you think you'll get your hands on it before the burglar does?


To prison? Really? Well, here in the U.S. a lot depends on the state. Here in AL, you can shoot someone for looking at you funny and call it self defense. OK, that's exaggerating, but not by as much as you might think. They recently changed the law so that essentially if you are on your own property or in a public place and you legitimately feel your life is in danger (hard to say who decides that!) you can shoot someone. And yes, your property includes your car.

As for getting to your gun, just keep it next to your bed. If a burglar can get to it before you can, the fight was lost anyway. Usually, you hear the burglar before he can get into your bedroom, especially if he has to pick a lock to get in.

I wouldn't mind living in a country like England though, where guns are far less common. I probably wouldn't bother having one then.

[DrDel]

For the dude who got robbed....

how did the Bad Guys get into your house? You mention the back door (I think) but did you leave it unlocked accidentally? Did the Bad Guy(s) smash open the door?

what lessons can us q23'ers learn from this regarding our backdoors?

(no, silly "backdoor" gutter humour please)

[Karen]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. But I'm still unclear on the actual GPS signal. Police can track my cell phone, right? What are they using? Does it have to be calling, or just on? Sorry for my complete ignorance on these things, but I really would like a way to reliably track my PC if it were to get stolen.

Police can track your cell phone, because (at least on my cell phone) your phone goes into a 'help' mode which blocks you from making anyother calls. I'm guessing that the phone is transmitting your position data to the 911 center until your phone is switched out of that mode. (I once got my cell phone stuck in help mode. It's not easy to figure out how to get it out of that mode.)

A pure GPS receiver can only receive. It needs to be connected to some sort of transmitter to send out the position information. Since cell phones transmit and receive, sending the GPS position data out with the transmitted info is pretty easy. Since GPS receivers are now about the size of a quarter, they get integrated into some pretty neat things. They are now tracking birds with GPS and radio transmitters. The funny thing is, the radio transmitter is much larger than the GPS receiver.

An interesting aside. Ben's chocolate phone has GPS tracking (for the user) capability. When we activated it, we had to acknowledge that the service is not private. Not because Verizon is tracking us in any way, but because we need to send out position data to Verizon in order for them to send us the correct maps.

[Robert Sharp]

A pure GPS receiver can only receive. It needs to be connected to some sort of transmitter to send out the position information. Since cell phones transmit and receive, sending the GPS position data out with the transmitted info is pretty easy. Since GPS receivers are now about the size of a quarter, they get integrated into some pretty neat things. They are now tracking birds with GPS and radio transmitters. The funny thing is, the radio transmitter is much larger than the GPS receiver.


Gotcha, but that means I should be able to put a GPS transmitter/receiver in my PC to track it. The idea would be the same, right? So where can I get one and how much am I looking at?

BTW, is this how mapping in cars works? The car has a GPS transmitter/receiver which is then connected to some digital map to help you get where you want to go?

[AndrewM]

BTW, is this how mapping in cars works? The car has a GPS transmitter/receiver which is then connected to some digital map to help you get where you want to go?

Yes.

I don't know if you can get GPS for your computer, but there are services where you can set up your computer to "phone home" if it gets stolen.

[Enidigm]

Holy fuck, this whole thread reads like a script for a new Die Hard movie to me. maybe its different here in england.

Do you see the "five girls murdered" news articles being posted every day from over here?

Personally i think we ought to round up and ban all the guns in America - even if it's the 1% spoiling it for the other 99%. I know that, as someone whom likes hunting, this is some evil terrible against-god-and-constitution logic, but we live in a very violent dislocated society and the number of times people stop these sorts of violent crimes by owning a gun is far outnumbered by the number of violent crimes permitted and exaggerated by guns.

I know all the counter arguments. Ultimately we couldn't implement this without a really jack-booted fascist nationwide roundup which would cause half the South to run to the hills and spend a decade shooting Johnny Law, so it's all kind of pointless wistful thinking anyway.

[Houngan]

Do you see the "five girls murdered" news articles being posted every day from over here?

Personally i think we ought to round up and ban all the guns in America - even if it's the 1% spoiling it for the other 99%. I know that, as someone whom likes hunting, this is some evil terrible against-god-and-constitution logic, but we live in a very violent dislocated society and the number of times people stop these sorts of violent crimes by owning a gun is far outnumbered by the number of violent crimes permitted and exaggerated by guns.

I know all the counter arguments. Ultimately we couldn't implement this without a really jack-booted fascist nationwide roundup which would cause half the South to run to the hills and spend a decade shooting Johnny Law, so it's all kind of pointless wistful thinking anyway.


Violent deaths from guns in the US: about 20k/year
Defensive uses of guns: about 1.5mil/year

Crazy but true, compiled from 13 disparate studies by left-leaning bodies. And, of course, you would just be disarming the lawful people.

H.

[shift6]

Shotguns: Not good for home defense. Good for deterrence, good for killing with one shot, but they are lousy at everything else. They don't spread appreciably inside a typical house, they cut through walls like butter, they're very hard to corner with, and very easy to take away from someone. A handgun is a much better defensive weapon, provided you know how to use it.
I know we go round and round every time this comes up, heheh. But a pistol round doesn't spread very well either (not at all, actually) and will go through twice as many walls before stopping. Just to continue to beat that ol' dead horse.


Ah, thanks for the clarification. But I'm still unclear on the actual GPS signal. Police can track my cell phone, right? What are they using? Does it have to be calling, or just on? Sorry for my complete ignorance on these things, but I really would like a way to reliably track my PC if it were to get stolen.
New phones are required to have GPSes in them. So older ones still have to be triangulated based on which cell sites are providing a signal, but newer ones have vanilla GPS. This is to prevent exactly the problem that Dante Rising had with his 911 call.


Unless your actually sleeping with a gun under your pillow, what makes you think you'll get your hands on it before the burglar does?
Presumably an alarm, a breaking window, or other measure will alert you to his presence long before he is digging around in your bedroom, yes.

[Nick Walter]

Violent deaths from guns in the US: about 20k/year
Defensive uses of guns: about 1.5mil/year

Crazy but true, compiled from 13 disparate studies by left-leaning bodies. And, of course, you would just be disarming the lawful people.

H.

Cite a source please.

Also, even if verifiable, the two statistics aren't really comparable. How do the "defensive" uses of firearms stack up against the use of guns in crimes, or even the discharge of guns in crimes. For every 20k that die, how many go to the hospital and live, or simply get missed?

[Sockpuppet]

Dante, I'm really sorry to hear about your loss. My parents' home was broken into when I was in high school. The neighbour across the street watched the entire thing happen, which started with somebody capable of kicking our front door open doing so, and she thought it was my scrawny five-foot-nothin' ass home from school and I'd forgot my key. I was almost more angry at her for not calling the police than I was at the jackasses who did it.

The vehicles in our neighbourhood are also frequently broken into and searched. I remember locking my keys in my running car when I stopped for a coffee break on the long drive to visit my family one Christmas, and I was shocked to see just how easy it was to break into my car when the tow truck arrived. The lesson there, and I hope it doesn't apply to homes, is that if somebody wants to get into your car, they will. I actually have friends who leave their cars open all the time because if somebody does decide to rifle through things inside, they don't want the car to be damaged in the process. The trick is to make your car, and I imagine this applies to your house, look like it will be too much work, inspiring the asshats to move onto an easier target. Even something like a sticker for a security company in the window might make somebody think twice if the next house over didn't have one.

With our house, the losses weren't consequential. We lost some electronics, and the bastards wrapped everything up to cart it off in the blanket that had been on my bed since I was a child, and that was really shitty, but everybody was safe. The weird part was how prepared I was to assume nothing serious was wrong. As I approached the house, I saw the family room in the basement was in shambles, and my first thought was that my brother was messing the place up. Had I arrived home a half hour earlier, I could have been walking right into a potentially very dangerous situation.

We made a few changes immediately. The first was to install double-locking deadbolts on all our doors, that require a key on either side to lock or unlock, so somebody couldn't smash the glass and turn the handle. We installed a security system (complete with fancy stickers). We did get a dog, although not strictly as a response to the burglary, but we wound up with a beagle. If the potential viciousness of a larger or less predictable breed worries you (if getting a dog ever becomes practical for you) a beagle might be a decent choice, because they SOUND big. It's always surprising to hear such a big voice from a smaller breed.

On the topic of firearms, I have a bit of experience, because I come from a long line of hunters and there have always been weapons in the house. It's often said that you should never point a gun at anything you're not prepared to shoot. I'd actually amend that (and I've never fired a rifle at anything more vicous than a stack of pop cans, so Ted Nugent I ain't) to say you should never point a gun at anything you're not prepared to kill. I'll emphatically side with the people who say that if you do choose to get a gun, definitely get trained and experienced with it. As others have noted, unless you know the care and feeding of your hand cannon, it's probably more dangerous to you than to other people. The other thing to consider about having weapons in the house is that you don't know if an intruder is armed upon entering your home. If you have a weapon and a struggle ensues, it is entirely possible that you will be the one arming your attacker, making for an extremely bad situation. Personally, I would never keep a weapon in my home for personal protection (I might stash a baseball bat in the closet, but nothing with blades or ammunition), although I definitely hope that if the cops show up with an intruder around, they fire ten or twelve warning shots into his back.

One other thing that I thought I'd mention is a piece of software I've seen recommended for home inventory. I haven't tried it out myself, but I've kept it bookmarked because I know I probably should, to prevent against any kind of loss, be it fire, theft, or anything else. I believe the software is free to use, and it might provde an extra layer of security for keeping track of all your valuables. I know a big issue with us in trying to figure out what we'd lost in the robbery was trying to remember what we had in the first place. You can download the software at http://www.knowyourstuff.org/ and hopefully somebody finds the link useful.

One again, I'm sorry for your loss, but very glad to hear you weren't hurt. You just know these robbers are all hopped up on the grand theft auto and get the bonus points for the head shots or whatever it is they do.

I aplogize if I'm mainly echoing other sentiments, but I only made it through about half the thread before I thought I'd pipe up.

[Enidigm]

Violent deaths from guns in the US: about 20k/year
Defensive uses of guns: about 1.5mil/year

H.

Honestly, this has to be bull. 1.5 mil a year? Do you know anyone who has used a gun defensively? Do you know anyone whom knows anyone? I'm literally swimming in a gun-nut sea, yet i know not one person whom has used a gun "defensively". With that many guns being used to "save the day", even ancedotal evidence starts to count because after 10 years there'd have been 15 million such cases.

OTOH, i've known many people that have been mugged ect. in cities by assailants with guns. I know of people, three or four degrees of seperation away, whom were murdered by guns. Several now that i think of it.

Also that statistic is the worst kind of fearmongering possible. If the society we live in is THAT violent (let's say, 5% of those cases were potential murders; 75,000 potential murders, maybe 150,000 rapes or assaults ,3% lifetime chance of being murdered, ect), then we might as well be bombing East St. Louis than Baghdad.

[Rywill]

Yeah, I'd also like to know where Houngan's stats come from. We've had this argument before, but the long and short of it is (a) depending on how you read the stats, you're probably less likely to help yourself with your gun than to hurt yourself with your gun (although IIRC BillD quoted stats showing it's roughly equal), even if you discount suicides; and (b) you are vastly more likely to be killed in some other, preventable way than by burglary-murder. If you want to make yourself safer, you would be way, way better off driving less, eating better, and exercising more than going out and buying a gun, although I realize that requires more time and willpower and is not as macho. If you want to have one because it subjectively makes you feel better (regardless of whether it actually makes you safer), or if you do it because you enjoy shooting as a sport and are willing to accept the risks, more power to you.

When talking about stats he's seen, Dante is probably thinking of the numerous articles that have run showing that gun owners are vastly more likely to be injured with their own gun than by a burglar's gun. Gun advocates rightly point out that those stats include gun owners deliberately injured by their own guns -- suicides and attempted suicides -- and that that's not a fair comparison. I agree with them, but I would also point out that having a gun around does increase your risk of suicide and that's a valid thing to consider (although I think not nearly to the extent that the gun-control articles take it -- I bet most of those people would have committed suicide even if they had no gun). I know we all think "Psh that's just for crazy people and depressed people, I'm not like that," but even for sane, non-depressed people, sometimes you get a call saying your child has been killed in a terrible accident, or your wife tells you she's leaving you for a co-worker and walks out, or whatever. We all go through black times in life (or at least, most of us do), and during those times you're better off if there's isn't a gun in the house. Of course you could kill yourself without one -- you could just go jump in front of a bus -- but having a gun around gives you a quick, certain, painless, and above all easy way to do it.

[cliffski]

sames true of homicide. if you catch the postman boffing your daughter your much more likely to successfully kill him if you happen to have a gun in the house. A gun can kill at distance in the way that even an angry father/husband just cant with a frying pan or a kitchen knife.
Although I reckon I could probably seriously fuck somene up with a bow and arrow, once ive strapped all the bits and pieces together.

[Ben]

Shotguns excel at amputation.

Jesus Christ. You shouldn't be allowed to own a firearm, and I'm a goddamn libertarian. Idiot.

Also, the reason handguns are better than shotguns for home defense is cornering.

[Robert Sharp]

Do you know anyone whom has used a gun defensively?

Could you please stop butchering "who"? This is the third time in this thread, I think....anyway, third time I've noticed you doing it in the last week or so. I don't know why it's bothering me, but it REALLY is.

[Enidigm]

Could you please stop butchering "who"? This is the third time in this thread, I think....anyway, third time I've noticed you doing it in the last week or so. I don't know why it's bothering me, but it REALLY is.

... ok

Although this is revealing the extent of my long-lost and forgotten knowledge of grammar, i think i get the dative and possessive cases mixed up with that pronoun.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Yeah, I'd also like to know where Houngan's stats come from. We've had this argument before, but the long and short of it is (a) depending on how you read the stats, you're probably less likely to help yourself with your gun than to hurt yourself with your gun (although IIRC BillD quoted stats showing it's roughly equal), even if you discount suicides; and (b) you are vastly more likely to be killed in some other, preventable way than by burglary-murder. If you want to make yourself safer, you would be way, way better off driving less, eating better, and exercising more than going out and buying a gun, although I realize that requires more time and willpower and is not as macho. If you want to have one because it subjectively makes you feel better (regardless of whether it actually makes you safer), or if you do it because you enjoy shooting as a sport and are willing to accept the risks, more power to you.
Yeah. Essentially the margin of error or arguability over death stats sort of cancels them all out. Also, you can fudge the stats in your favor as a gun owner if you figure you're probably not some hillbilly idiot who drinks and forgets his guns are loaded but you know, stats is stats.

Where is that thread? There's a link in that one or one that came about right after it, to a local piece here in Vegas where an old guy shot and killed an armed assailant.

I dig the gun ownership merely because I feel safer at home with it, esepcially now that I live alone in a two story house. I have a motion sensor burglar alarm and as long as that doesn't trigger, any odd house noise doesn't bother me much.

[Kyle Wilson]

Could you please stop butchering "who"?

Clearly anyone capable of such violence against the English language shouldn't be allowed to own a gun.

[Rywill]

Samurai swords, though? I think they should be able to own those.

PS Check out me and Bill totally not yelling at each other. (Mostly I am afraid he would shoot me -- except that he can't drive here because of that warrant ho ho ho!)

[Marcus]

Well it happened to my dad this weekend as well. He came down to LA to help me move and when he got home about an hour ago he found that someone had used a crowbar ( or something similar ) to open the front door. He said they pretty much sacked the house.

People suck.

I guess it wasnt really his weekend because on Saturday someone sideswiped his new truck in the middle of the night.

[MatthewF]

Well, looks like the OP wasn't alone this weekend. Saturday morning I woke up to find my downstairs bedroom window forced open and the screen removed. I had closed the door to the bedroom before I went to sleep, because there was trash in there that I didn't want the cats to get into. So the first thing I noticed was that the door was open when I woke up. I didn't see the window screen until I had gotten inside the door and found it lying on the ground. The window lock had been pushed in with a screwdriver or something and then they just slid it open and pushed in the screen. Even creepier, I never woke up during the whole thing, and neither did my girlfriend. And it just gets stranger:

1) We can't figure what he/they took, if anything. My extremely expensive computer and LCD monitor were in that room and they haven't been touched. The only thing we can't rule out is that we may have been missing a couple beers.

2) There is a small circular hole, perfectly round and clean, punched through the vertical blinds in the living room down the hall. It looks like a bullet hole, but there was no damage to the glass behind it. What?

3) We're thinking maybe he saw our alarm box flashing, which happens when a door or window is open, and then made a run for it. But instead of going out the front door, he went out the window again, because the front door was locked from the inside. Really strange.

So yeah, we are seriously creeped out. Just knowing that someone was walking around in the apartment while we slept was enough to make us jump at every little sound when trying to sleep last night. I now keep a large club underneath the bed beneath my pillow, just in case.

We also live in a college townhome complex, and just this week a notice was posted around the complex that 2 cars had been broken into and people should be locking their doors and using their alarms. Then a couple days later this happens.

Anyway, I'm not really looking for security advice, just thought I'd share. The window is now bolstered against the wall with a thick wooden stick, so it'd be impossible to get in from the outside without breaking the window. All our sliding doors are getting the same treatment. As for weaponry, we've got a high powered pellet rifle that I'll probably load up with hunting pellets and mount on the wall next to the stairs, and in the future consider a .22 or shotgun. Both me and the girlfriend are quite good shots, so no worries there. Damn, what a weird weekend.

[Jason McCullough]

http://www.jpfo.org/brasco2.jpg

I'm just glad everyone's ok.

[SlyFrog]

The "baseball bat" versus gun thing is fascinating to me.

First, I understand that both you and the criminal are less likely to be killed with a baseball bat, unless one of you actually wants to kill the other (in which case it is still probably less likely, just not as great a degree).

At the same time, there is one situation in which I am interested in fighting off a burglar. That would be when they appear as though they may be coming into my bedroom or the bedroom of my children. In such a case, based on my lack of belief in my amazing hand to hand prowess, I would be much more confident of being able to stop an intruder with a gun than I would with some form of club. As much e-peen as I have, I have little illusion of my real life ability (or I would think, any average person's) to fight off someone who likely grew up rough, who is likely drugged up, etc., with some mere physical implement like a baseball club or a nine iron.

Therefore, were I actually planning to sleep near either a club or a gun, it would be an interesting dilemna. I just have a hard time believing, if someone were really coming upstairs into my room (meaning they may not be interested in just robbing me) that I would be worse off with the gun.

[BaconTastesGood]

I just have a hard time believing, if someone were really coming upstairs into my room (meaning they may not be interested in just robbing me) that I would be worse off with the gun.

Depends on the person. A baseball bat has a lot going for it, including its lack of lethality, but it is quite surprising how little room a typical room gives for you to swing.

Also, you'd be amazed at how effective a baseball bat really is. they're fucking devastating as all hell if you really get hit squarely.

[Sockpuppet]

I think my mentality with the bat would be in a way the same rationale behind the security company sticker on the window. If a guy is coming into my home with the intention (or willingness) to fuck me up, I'm probably a goner one way or the other. But in the hopefully far more likely scenario that he's just looking to grab my TV, he's probably going to take a look at me - a 6'3" pissed-off looking dude with a Louisville Slugger - and a look at the door he came in, and figure out that one option looks much less troublesome than the other. I guess I'd intend it more as a deterrent than a weapon, and I'd hope he didn't feel like sticking around to see if I could get a good swing in.

[SlyFrog]

Depends on the person. A baseball bat has a lot going for it, including its lack of lethality, but it is quite surprising how little room a typical room gives for you to swing.

Also, you'd be amazed at how effective a baseball bat really is. they're fucking devastating as all hell if you really get hit squarely.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty much the type of person who sees the criminal blocking my weak ass swing, laughing at me (or me swinging to widely and actually smacking a wall by accident), and then the criminal beating the hell out of me.

I have a friend who has gone through quite a fair bit of military and police training, ran a private security company (guy took it quite seriously and was, I believe, quite good at it).

He mentioned that one problem with certain types of telescoping batons is that they can collapse in if you poke someone with them. I recall him mentioning that in narrow rooms, they could be problematic, because you can't really swing freely, so you actually often play it better by hitting them with the butt end. Maybe that is only a problem with certain types that don't "lock," I don't know for sure.

I do know that he let me swing it around a bit, and I would not want to have been hit with that thing. They look so relatively small, but when you hold them you know there's a world of hurt (they are very dense feeling, and would shatter bones I might think). Probably the point that you're getting at Bacon - they're a big force multiplier for even an "average" joe.

[BaconTastesGood]

Unfortunately, I'm pretty much the type of person who sees the criminal blocking my weak ass swing, laughing at me (or me swinging to widely and actually smacking a wall by accident), and then the criminal beating the hell out of me.

Practice a couple times, and it won't be an issue. Seriously, if just about anyone that weighs more than 100 pounds swings a baseball bat and means it, it will seriously, seriously fuck someone up.

Now, they're relatively easy to defeat if someone is trained, but the odds of that are fairly low, and if you have any training (like, playing with it for an hour), the balance is back in your favor.

The two most common mistakes bat wielders make are 1.) holding it front of them like a spear, trying to keep someone at bay (makes for an easy disarm) or 2.) telegraphing their swing by swinging back then forward. If you avoid those two, and when you do swing SWING LIKE YOU MEAN IT, it will wreck someone's day because you do NOT block a baseball bat.

It's not going to be some Escape from New York exchange of *oofs* and *aaahs*, it'll be the first one hit goes down, say goodnight.

I was practicing leg kicks at my dojo a few weeks ago, and people are constantly surprised how a kick at even 20% -- that, from the outside, looks like a tap -- can be incredibly painful and debiliting when striking even the thigh, which is a beefy part of the human body. A baseball bat swung with two arms and a bit of hip rotation is far more powerful than someone's best kick.

Oh, and if you get a lucky shot and the bat hits someone's floating ribs -- they're done for a long, long time.


He mentioned that one problem with certain types of telescoping batons is that they can collapse in if you poke someone with them.

Reliability of telescoping batons is suspect, period. They also tend to be lighter weight due to their telescoping nature.

The good old PR-24 is one mean sumbitch, but you have to have training for that which is why the ASP and other batons are used instead ("it's a stick, swing it").

[Marcus]

Once I get out of training the telescoping baton they issued me is going in storage. Really they suck ass.

[BaconTastesGood]

Once I get out of training the telescoping baton they issued me is going in storage. Really they suck ass.

You going to opt for a "Rodney King" PR-24?

[Bill Dungsroman]

Harsh!

[Dante Rising]

Sorry to hear about your incident, Scry.


There is a small circular hole, perfectly round and clean, punched through the vertical blinds in the living room down the hall. It looks like a bullet hole, but there was no damage to the glass behind it. What?

Have you figured out what caused this yet?



For the dude who got robbed....

how did the Bad Guys get into your house? You mention the back door (I think) but did you leave it unlocked accidentally? Did the Bad Guy(s) smash open the door?

The screen door was locked, but a small section was torn open and they unlatched the lock. The glass sliding door showed no signs of forced entry, but I'm fairly certain it was locked. It was most definitely closed. The police officer said the type of lock on my sliding door is laughably easy to overcome.

[amiller320]

What kind of store would carry various types of self-defense equipment (excluding guns)? I'd like to check out a few things in person.

[Ben]

There is a small circular hole, perfectly round and clean, punched through the vertical blinds in the living room down the hall. It looks like a bullet hole, but there was no damage to the glass behind it. What?

I'm incredibly dissappointed that nobody has fingered Theodore Rex DX for this yet.

[Enidigm]

I'm incredibly dissappointed that nobody has fingered Theodore Rex DX for this yet.

I bow before you sir; Sherlock incarnate!

Since nothing appears to be missing, what strange, exotic, or dangerous thing did he steal, and what's he planning to do with it now that he has it?

[dogbert]

Since nothing appears to be missing, what strange, exotic, or dangerous thing did he steal, and what's he planning to do with it now that he has it?

He's going to drill holes in it, whatever it is.

[DerekSnider]

1)... We can't figure what he/they took, if anything. My extremely expensive computer and LCD monitor were in that room and they haven't been touched. The only thing we can't rule out is that we may have been missing a couple beers....
...Damn, what a weird weekend.

They broke in for a couple beers, haha. That's funny. Seriously, no break in is funny..but for a few beers?..

[Lunch of Kong]

Last time my house was broken into, the perps drank two cans of Sprite and left the half-full cans on the kitchen counter. Fuckers.

[Dante Rising]

Update:

I've tried recreating how the thief got in without any signs of forced entry. Today I learned that if you simply tug on the glass sliding door the lock unlatches with no damage. You don't even need to put your $%#$ weight into it. I went over to my neighbor's townhome, and his lock is the same way. I broke into his kitchen in 3 seconds by tugging on the door. It merely feels like the door is stuck for a second and then in immediately unlatches. His eyes were as big as saucers when he saw how quickly I got into his place. What's the point of even putting a lock like this on a door? Aesthetics?

Maybe I should go after my landlord? I'm willing to guess the entire townhome complex uses the same shitty locks.

[Aleck]

Update:

I've tried recreating how the thief got in without any signs of forced entry. Today I learned that if you simply tug on the glass sliding door the lock unlatches with no damage. You don't even need to put your $%#$ weight into it. I went over to my neighbor's townhome, and his lock is the same way. I broke into his kitchen in 3 seconds by tugging on the door. It merely feels like the door is stuck for a second and then in immediately unlatches. His eyes were as big as saucers when he saw how quickly I got into his place. What's the point of even putting a lock like this on a door? Aesthetics?

Maybe I should go after my landlord? I'm willing to guess the entire townhome complex uses the same shitty locks.

Dante, that's pretty common for cheap glass sliding doors. I grew up in Southern California, and one of the major builders here (Lewis Homes) used a cheapo design on many homes in my area that you could defeat by merely tapping in the lock a few times (the catch would come out and gravity would swing it out of position with just a few taps). A friend of mine in junior high never remembered to take his keys with him to school, but never had a problem getting into his home after school.

A stick in the groove of the door, on the other hand, is a very low tech but reliable way to keep the door closed.

Now, damnit, everyone stop saying that their homes were broken in to over the weekend -- I'm out of town and not looking forward to coming home to a ransacked house!

[Lunch of Kong]

Sliding doors are easy to open. Put a broomhandle in the door grove to prevent that, or use the metal locking pin if you have one. At least then they have to break the door window to open it.

Lockpicks get past many locks in short order. Some front door deadbolt locks can be picked in 3 seconds with a specially cut key and a hammer. Good luck proving theft with that one.

Latched windows can be unlatched with a screwdriver or jimmy through the gap. To secure those, you'll have to drill holes and install pin locks.

[Dante Rising]

Sliding doors are easy to open. Put a broomhandle in the door grove to prevent that, or use the metal locking pin if you have one. At least then they have to break the door window to open it.

Lockpicks get past many locks in short order. Some front door deadbolt locks can be picked in 3 seconds with a specially cut key and a hammer. Good luck proving theft with that one.

Latched windows can be unlatched with a screwdriver or jimmy through the gap. To secure those, you'll have to drill holes and install pin locks.

It sounds like you know how to circumvent these locks from experience.....hmmm...where were you last week?

[SlyFrog]

Yes, I we got locked out of our house once when my father happened to be in town. As I mentioned in another thread, he's kind of the ultimate handyman type, can wire houses, do all the plumbing, etc. He just learned the stuff by necessity growing up in the Great Depression, leaving home at age 14, etc.

So he comes over with a big set of pliers, and I'm wondering what he is doing. He proceeds to grab the door handle (this is our front door) with the pliers, give it a quick twist and yank, snaps it right off (quietly, to my surprise), and then sticks the pliers in and opens the door. He did this in less than 5 seconds to our front door with a simple tool he happened to have in his car. Just nonchalantly opened the screen door, pop, and he was in.

This destroyed any illusions I had about preventing break-ins by any determined burglar who actually did it for a living.

[Lunch of Kong]

It sounds like you know how to circumvent these locks from experience.....hmmm...where were you last week?

Heh. After you get burgled, you tend to educate yourself as to just how insecure your home really is.

[Robert Sharp]

... ok

Although this is revealing the extent of my long-lost and forgotten knowledge of grammar, i think i get the dative and possessive cases mixed up with that pronoun.

Nah, you are getting your object and subject mixed up. With 'who' and 'whom' you use the case as it would function in the clause.

So:

Give that to whomever you want to have it.

vs.

Give that to whoever owns it.

In both sentences 'give that to' is irrelevant. Put more simply, substitute he and him for the 'who' in your sentence, and see which works better. 'He' goes with 'who' and 'him' goes with 'whom'. As long as you keep the clause in which the 'who' appears separate from the rest of the sentence, it will help you determine which to use. And I do this out of love, not hate ;)

[Robert Sharp]

Last time my house was broken into, the perps drank two cans of Sprite and left the half-full cans on the kitchen counter. Fuckers.

So...just so I'm clear. You have their DNA, and you can do nothing?

[Lunch of Kong]

Erm, cops aren't going to do a CSI style DNA workup on a home burglary.

They took prints off the cans, but we never heard back from them regarding either the fate of our lost property or whether they ever identified the burglars.

[Dante Rising]

Well, my insurance company called me. I've totalled my losses and it comes to about $1400. The agent told me the items stolen will de depreciated even if I have receipts, unless I purchase the exact same item. That isn't a problem since I planned on rebuying the exact same things anyway.

The only item that I may not rebuy is my entertainment center. It was damaged in the incident, and I may use that money for a new Microsoft Zune.

[Rywill]

So...just so I'm clear. You have their DNA, and you can do nothing?

Hahaha.

THE DUDE: Hey, man, are you going to find these guys, or, you know, I mean, do you guys have any promising leads?

COP: Leads? [Bursts out laughing] Yeah, sure, I'll just check with the boys down at the crime lab. They've got four more detectives working on the case. They got us working in shifts. [Shakes head in amazment] "Leads."

[Lunch of Kong]

http://www.gotwavs.com/php/sounds/?id=gog&media=MP3S&type=Movies&movie=Big_Lebowski&quote=leads.txt&file=leads.mp3

[MatthewF]

Have you figured out what caused this yet?

I searched around on the carpet below the blinds and found a steel BB, which is the ammunition I use to load my pellet gun. I'm not sure if this is what caused it, because sometimes we shoot targets in the backyard and one could have landed there, but it's looking like a pretty likely culprit. Unfortunately this also just makes it ten times weirder if true.

As it turns out, we were missing 2 beers. So I guess he wasn't really a master thief, just really thirsty.

[Dante Rising]

Several of you have mentioned that my girlfriend may have been the target, especially after giving tours of our place for the sublet.

The more I think about it, the more I fear this may be true. The main reason I'm starting to buy into this line of thought is that the first floor still had an HDTV, iRiver MP3 player, stereo, palm, and DVD player that were never touched. Four of these five things are easily portable by one person. Why even chance going upstairs when there is still $2500 of electronics within eyeshot?

I need to stop overthinking all of this and just let it go.

[amiller320]

Several of you have mentioned that my girlfriend may have been the target...


Yikes. That would creep me out.


On the other hand, if you weren't happy in your relationship you could have saved the misery of replacing your important electronics by offering up the gurf instead.

[Anders Hallin]

I'm going to guess that's the paranoia talking. How often does home invasion for that reason happen, really? It wouldn't exactly be the most underreported of crimes.
Apply Occam's razor.

[Glenn]

What kind of store would carry various types of self-defense equipment (excluding guns)? I'd like to check out a few things in person.A gun store.

[ElGuapo]

Two things.

About locks, and doors, and such. Anyone who thinks that a regular outer door is not good protection is wrong. Outer doors are awesome at keeping people out. Note I am not talking sliding glass doors here. About a year ago, I got drunk, lost my keys, and was locked out of my house. It took a locksmith over an hour and 3 carbon steel drill bits in order to get into my house. I asked him why he didn't just pick the lock and and said that to pick a deadbolt is very hard and probably would have taken even longer. And this guy had two toolboxes full of stuff specifically designed to defeat locks.

Also, I'm trying to imagine the stories these dumb ass robbers are telling each other right now. "Yeah, so we got away with this guy's 360. But dude, holy fuck, did you see that fucking samurai sword? He almost cut my head off dude! Fuck!"

[Jason McMaster]

had 2 of my mountain bikes stolen from my back yard yesterday while I was cooking dinner. AWESOME!

[ElGuapo]

I had a laptop stolen once from a client site. I was in a meeting in one building and on my way back to our little office area. I yold my colleague I would be 10 minutes walking back and not to leave the room unattended, as my laptop wasn't locked up yet. He says ok, no problem.

I get back and the room is empty, and my laptop is gone. He comes stolling in with a coffee and I go "ok, funny guy, where's my laptop?"

Yeah, it was stolen. 5 minute time span. EEEEEEEEEEEdiot!

[Jancelot]

They might've just been after jewlery and not necessarily your girlfriend. Small items with a big payout are pretty attractive I'd imagine.

[Moore]

I hope no one ever breaks into my house in the middle of the night.

Are you looking forward to laughing and shaking your head at a bravado statement here?

Nope, I think I'd fucking shit myself. I can't believe you had the presence of mind to chase the guy. I scream like a girl when I get suprised like that.

grab all your airsoft guns and rush him, he'd shit his pants, you'd look like The Mask with his bazillion cartoon guns.

[Moore]

Several of you have mentioned that my girlfriend may have been the target, especially after giving tours of our place for the sublet.

The more I think about it, the more I fear this may be true. The main reason I'm starting to buy into this line of thought is that the first floor still had an HDTV, iRiver MP3 player, stereo, palm, and DVD player that were never touched. Four of these five things are easily portable by one person. Why even chance going upstairs when there is still $2500 of electronics within eyeshot?

I need to stop overthinking all of this and just let it go.


scary.. .give the remaining sublet tours yourself, and carry that sword the whole time.

[Lunch of Kong]

Anyone who thinks that a regular outer door is not good protection is wrong.

That's not true, though, because the security on the door is only as good as the lock, and any pin tumbler lock can be bumped with nothing more than a key cut down to the 9's. You might not be able to pick it with a pickgun or traditional tools, but if you can get a blank key for the lock (and you get blanks for the most common door locks quite easily at home depot), you can bump it.

I'll post links and how-to videos later when I'm not so rushed.

[fuzzyslug]

I went over to my neighbor's townhome, and his lock is the same way. I broke into his kitchen in 3 seconds by tugging on the door. It merely feels like the door is stuck for a second and then in immediately unlatches. His eyes were as big as saucers when he saw how quickly I got into his place.

Did he chase you out with a sword? I'd recommend heading for the corn.

[amiller320]

Anyone who thinks that a regular outer door is not good protection is wrong.


Unless, of course, you don't mind a little splintered wood. Presumably, the locksmith didn't want to break your door/frame. The door and lock or only as strong as the material surrounding the latch.

[dannimal]

That's not true, though, because the security on the door is only as good as the lock, and any pin tumbler lock can be bumped with nothing more than a key cut down to the 9's. You might not be able to pick it with a pickgun or traditional tools, but if you can get a blank key for the lock (and you get blanks for the most common door locks quite easily at home depot), you can bump it.

I'll post links and how-to videos later when I'm not so rushed.

It's weird that a locksmith wouldn't go this route over drilling the lock. If you're going to replace the lock, you don't worry about the minor damage bumping it will do.

I've seen a/the presentation by a lock-guy when he was at our recent campus IT security "summit". He was brought in because a) he's fantastic, b) a reminder that "total" security extends beyond the actual computer, and c) to blow out the stale remnants of the drone who spoke before him. Ugh.

[drewl]

always have a stick or rod in sliding glass doors....even my wife knows that one!
Our windows also have the little catches on them so they can be open a couple inches without someone opening them all the way from outside.
Also the dog barks as soon as anyone is even near the house.

gotta be someone from your complex that knows how to get in.

[Dante Rising]

That's not true, though, because the security on the door is only as good as the lock, and any pin tumbler lock can be bumped with nothing more than a key cut down to the 9's. You might not be able to pick it with a pickgun or traditional tools, but if you can get a blank key for the lock (and you get blanks for the most common door locks quite easily at home depot), you can bump it.

I'm now certain that Roger Wong is some form of supercriminal, or he works for the CIA breaking into the homes of unsuspecting citizens so that they can be captured and used in nefarious government experiments. I'm staying out of Texas.

[RichVR]

A metal clad door with a solid wood core. Dead bolts 1/3 from the top and 1/3 of the way from the bottom. Including a solid doorknob bolt. In a steel door jamb.

Wrought iron "screen" doors with deadbolt locks and bars. Double key locks (inside and outside) (with several keys in easy to access places in case of fire) on doors with glass.

If there is the possibility of someone breaking windows, bars on said windows. Glass break alarms are cheap, but that doesn't stop the perp from entering before the cops get there.

Police locks are only as good as the lock that moves the bar. Buy the best.

Zeiss key locks are nice. Tubular keys have been problematic, since they have been picked with plastic tubes.

These are a few of my favorite things.

http://www.lockpicking101.com/ FTW

I've spent a bit of time there. I have a Southord MPXS-20 set and have made a few of my own. Know your enemy.

Good luck.

[Houngan]

Cite a source please.

Also, even if verifiable, the two statistics aren't really comparable. How do the "defensive" uses of firearms stack up against the use of guns in crimes, or even the discharge of guns in crimes. For every 20k that die, how many go to the hospital and live, or simply get missed?


I'll cite 13 of them:

http://www.guncite.com/kleckandgertztable1.html

You raise a good point, however, since I didn't find or include information on woundings. The FBI should have that data.

H.

[Harugon]

There's something to be said for the persuasive power of noise. Racking a shotgun is a noise that everyone recognizes, and will motivate an invader to leave with the quickness.

I recommend a whip. Also makes a distinct sound and lets burglars know you're just a little bit insane as well. No worries about it being used against you either, not just anybody can pick up a whip and use it effectively.

[BaconTastesGood]

I recommend a whip. Also makes a distinct sound and lets burglars know you're just a little bit insane as well. No worries about it being used against you either, not just anybody can pick up a whip and use it effectively.

A whip or a sjambok? You can always explain to the cops you thought the intruder was a lion.

P.S. Pismo Beach, sweet! I used to live in Arroyo Grande...

[Patrick]

Damn! I'm in Santa Maria. If you were still in AG we could have a Central Coast get together.

[Enidigm]

I'll cite 13 of them:

http://www.guncite.com/kleckandgertztable1.html

You raise a good point, however, since I didn't find or include information on woundings. The FBI should have that data.

H.

I don't have time to really parse through the data on the site; it's pretty clear, though, it's a site telling believers what they want to hear.

This site also doesn't take into account the last 6 years either in many of it's studies.

I suspect "defensive use of a gun" is a much broader catagory than "stopping a crime from being committed, or defending personal space from attack", and more of a "was there a gun in your possession".

[Houngan]

I don't have time to really parse through the data on the site; it's pretty clear, though, it's a site telling believers what they want to hear.

This site also doesn't take into account the last 6 years either in many of it's studies.

I suspect "defensive use of a gun" is a much broader catagory than "stopping a crime from being committed, or defending personal space from attack", and more of a "was there a gun in your possession".

Well, since you don't have time to read anything that might contradict your beliefs, I suppose you'll never know.

H.

[Enidigm]

Well, since you don't have time to read anything that might contradict your beliefs, I suppose you'll never know.

H.

I didn't say i didn't read it, i said i haven't had time to read the sources.

[Enidigm]

So far, i gather the survey's basic premise is that The National Crime Victim Survey "grossly" underreports defensive uses of guns, and that this survey, whose interviewers do not identify themselves as Federal employees, somehow has a more accurate accounting.

More conclusions at 11!

[Houngan]

I didn't say i didn't read it, i said i haven't had time to read the sources.

No, you didn't say you haven't had time, you said you don't have time. There is a pretty big difference, both in literal meaning and in common idiom. When I say I don't have time to listen to modern rap music, I'm not suggesting that it is next on my list, it is that I am dismissing it as a possibility outright.

And as for you next post, there are 13 different surveys that were studied, the linked paper is an assessment of those findings. If you want to just go to guncite.com, it has pretty handy links to most of the common questions.

H.

[Enidigm]

I "don't" have time [at work]

I "haven't had" time [at work] to read the sources. [After first statement]