A quick question about Hillary Clinton

[Brendan]

Do you think America would vote for a female president? Has any woman run for president in the past?

[extarbags]

A) No.

B) Not as a nominee from a major party, no.

[Elton]

Walter Mondale had a female vice-presidential candidate in '84.
They got slaughtered by Reagan/Bush Part 2 -- I think they only won one state (Minnesota) plus Washington D.C.

My gut opinion is that Hillary will get trounced by McCain in '08.
And that America will have black and Hispanic presidents long before a female president.
Are there any openly gay world leaders?

[Squirrel Killer]

A) Yes.

B) Not as a nominee from a major party, no.

[Jake Plane]

Do you think America would vote for a female president? Has any woman run for president in the past?

This should be a poll.

But yes, America is ready to vote for a female president - but I think a conservative candidate would have a better shot than a progressive one. Basically an American Margaret Thatcher.

As for question B, the answer is yes and from a major party. Elizabeth Dole. She ran for President of the United States, but never made it past her party's primary.

[Elton]

Yeah, anyone who was turned off by Ferraro wasn't a Mondale voter anyway. But that's the closest a woman has come to the presidency, sort of. I see that Condi Rice is fourth in the line of succession if something should happen to Bush.

I think Hillary's baggage from the Clinton presidency is more damaging than her gender, but still ... it'll take a perfect storm of events to get a woman in the Oval Office. America's sexism runs deep.

Edit: Agreed that a conservative woman would have an easier time of it.

[extarbags]

As for question B, the answer is yes and from a major party. Elizabeth Dole. She ran for President of the United States, but never made it past her party's primary.

Then she didn't run for President. There's a comedy option female (http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=M001025) in every primary.

[Jake Plane]

You're right. I should have said that of the ass-clown options (with all due respect) she's as good as it gets, which is depressing to not just Jack Nicholson but anyone with a brain.

[Brian Rucker]

I think Americans could elect a woman as president. Imagine George Allen is the nominee for the Republicans in 2008 and the Democrats nominate Oprah.

BTW, in this scenario I leave the country because I have nobody left to root for anymore.

[Elton]

I'd vote for Oprah if it turned out she was a free-market economist.
Just as long as she doesn't pick Dr. Phil as her running mate.

[Squirrel Killer]

As for question B, the answer is yes and from a major party. Elizabeth Dole. She ran for President of the United States, but never made it past her party's primary.
By that standard, there's a lot more than just Dole.

Margaret Chase Smith
Shirley Chisholm
Pat Schroeder
Heather Anne Harder
Carol Moseley Braun

And I'm sure I'm leaving a bunch out.

[Jake Plane]

To quote myself:

You're right. I should have said that of the ass-clown options (with all due respect) she's as good as it gets, which is depressing to not just Jack Nicholson but anyone with a brain.

Dole stands out because she really has been the only female candidate that was taken seriously.

[Midnight Son]

1) Not in flyover land. They much too macho in their blaze orange and shit.

[Lum]

Are there any openly gay world leaders?

The Netherlands had a gay leader of a major party (Pim Fortuyn). That's about as far as any major politician has come out of the closet.

I suspect Hillary Clinton will get the nomination this election and lose, but not because she's female, but because she's extremely polarizing. I think we've gotten to the point where political leaders can be female and not raise too many eyebrows. No one looks at Nancy Pelosi and comments "Wow, it's great that the Democrats have a female party leader in the House!"

[extarbags]

I suspect Hillary Clinton will get the nomination this election and lose, but not because she's female, but because she's extremely polarizing. I think we've gotten to the point where political leaders can be female and not raise too many eyebrows. No one looks at Nancy Pelosi and comments "Wow, it's great that the Democrats have a female party leader in the House!"

Yeah, because most of the kind of people who wouldn't be able to bear that thought aren't exactly keyed in to who the major figures in Congress are. It's a big jump from House Minority Leader to President.

[noun]

I think America's ready for a woman president, but I think Condi would get elected before Hillary. I really, really hope the Dems don't nominate her. She can campaign if she wants; just don't give her the nomination.

[Squirrel Killer]

To quote myself:You're right. I should have said that of the ass-clown options (with all due respect) she's as good as it gets, which is depressing to not just Jack Nicholson but anyone with a brain.
Dole stands out because she really has been the only female candidate that was taken seriously.
That's pretty dismissive of a lot of good people. Schroeder's campaign, for one, kicked the shit out of Mosley Braun's and she was taken seriously.

[Phil_Stein]

1) Not in flyover land. They much too macho in their blaze orange and shit.

It's a good thing this board's so open-minded and well informed and such. We can (rightly) slam politicians who display knee-jerk, ill-informed reactions about race, gender and whatnot, then fire from the hip about the 'flyover' states.

The closest proxy (IMO) to open-mindedness about a potential female president is how an area has voted for female senators. Obviously, coastal states like New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Oregon are much better in this respect than us flyover states like say Missouri, Nebraska, Kansas, and Louisiana, but let's take a look (http://www.answers.com/topic/women-in-the-united-states-senate)anyways, shall we?

Oh wait, looks like those 4 coastal (and relatively liberal) paragons have had 1 female senator, combined, and the 4 flyover states have had 9.

Well, maybe governors?

I couldn't find a summary list of all-time U.S. female governors, but here's the list (http://www.opengroup.org/comm/press/articles/NASPL-b.pdf) of current governors (I think it's as of 2006):

States with female governors:

Arizona
Connecticut
Delaware
Hawaii
Kansas
Louisiana
Michigan
Washington

Hmm - yes we get Connecticut and Washington, but strangely, the flyover states here (Kansas, Michigan, Louisiana, arguably Arizona) also seem better represented.

[bigdruid]

God, oh God, please don't make me vote for Hillary. I mean, I will, if I have to, but I'll *really* have to hold my nose.

For some reason, her husband wore Centrism really well (even if it was just an act) - but with her it just comes off as pure politics.

Plus, I'm still pissed about her grandstanding after the Hot Coffee incident.

[Charlatan]

I think a woman certainly could get elected, but I doubt Hilary would be the one. As mentioned above, she's just too polarizing.

[LesJarvis]

People always say "Hilary is too polarizing" like it means something. Hey, Bush is pretty damn polarizing too, and he got elected twice. Same with Bill Clinton. I don't necessarily think Hilary can get elected, but it's not because she's polarizing, because that's not even an argument, it's just a statement of fact.

[shift6]

I would vote for any of my ex-es for President. Because then I could be all: "hey I totally nailed the President!"

[chemdem]

National Governors Association (http://www.nga.org)
Gov. Lurleen Wallace Alabama (1967-1968)
Gov. Jane Hull Arizona (1997-2003)
Gov. Rose Mofford Arizona (1988-1991)
Gov. Janet Napolitano Arizona (2003)
Gov. M. Jodi Rell Connecticut (2004)
Gov. Ella Grasso Connecticut (1975-1980)
Gov. Ruth Ann Minner Delaware (2001)
Gov. Linda Lingle Hawaii (2002)
Gov. Kathleen Sebelius Kansas (2003)
Gov. Joan Finney Kansas (1991-1995)
Gov. Martha Collins Kentucky (1984-1988)
Gov. Kathleen Blanco Louisiana (2004)
Gov. Jane Swift Massachusetts (2001-2003)
Gov. Jennifer Granholm Michigan (2003)
Gov. Judy Martz Montana (2001-2005)
Gov. Kay Orr Nebraska (1987-1991)
Gov. Jeanne Shaheen New Hampshire (1997-2003)
Gov. Christine Whitman New Jersey (1994-2001)
Gov. Nancy Hollister Ohio (1998-1999)
Gov. Barbara Roberts Oregon (1991-1995)
Gov. Sila Calderon Puerto Rico (2001-2005)
Gov. Miriam Ferguson Texas (1933-1935)
Gov. Ann Richards Texas (1991-1995)
Gov. Olene Walker Utah (2003-2005)
Gov. Madeleine Kunin Vermont (1985-1991)
Gov. Christine Gregoire Washington (2005)
Gov. Dixy Ray Washington (1977-1981)
Gov. Nellie Ross Wyoming (1925-1927)

Lets also remember for a moment which branch has had such a great history of being elected to the White House.

Senator Kerry
Senator Gore
Senator Dole
Senator Mondale
Senator McGovern
Senator Goldwater

Senator Kennedy

[Woolen Horde]

The Netherlands had a gay leader of a major party (Pim Fortuyn). That's about as far as any major politician has come out of the closet.


"Had" being the operative word, since he was stabbed to death.

The mayor of Berlin is an up-and-comer in German politics and is openly gay.

[John Many Jars]

Shirley Chisholm

huhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuh


Heather Anne Harder

HUHUHUHHUHUHUHHUHHUHUH

[Flowers]

God, oh God, please don't make me vote for Hillary. I mean, I will, if I have to, but I'll *really* have to hold my nose.

For some reason, her husband wore Centrism really well (even if it was just an act) - but with her it just comes off as pure politics.

Plus, I'm still pissed about her grandstanding after the Hot Coffee incident.


Yeah. Speaking of women and German politics, Hillary Clinton is on the short list of people where, if it came down to her or a resurrected robot Hitler, I would be all like, "Hmmmmmmmmmm."

[Midnight Son]

Hillary. Would you hit it?

[bigdruid]

Maybe, back in the day...

http://www.nynewsday.com/media/photo/2003-05/8005484.jpg

[extarbags]

National Governors Association (http://www.nga.org)


Lets also remember for a moment which branch has had such a great history of being elected to the White House.

Senator Kerry
Senator Gore
Senator Dole
Senator Mondale
Senator McGovern
Senator Goldwater

Senator Kennedy

Good point, but let's also remember which gender has had a better history of being elected to the White House.

01 Washington, George (1789-1797)
02 Adams, John (1797-1801)
03 Jefferson, Thomas (1801-1809)
04 Madison, James (1809-1817)
05 Monroe, James (1817-1825)
06 Adams, John Quincy (1825-1829)
07 Jackson, Andrew (1829-1837)
08 Van Buren, Martin (1837-1841)
09 Harrison, William Henry (1841)
10 Tyler, John (1841-1845)
11 Polk, James Knox (1845-1849)
12 Taylor, Zachary (1849-1850)
13 Fillmore, Millard (1850-1853)
14 Pierce, Franklin (1853-1857)
15 Buchanan, James (1857-1861)
16 Lincoln, Abraham (1861-1865)
17 Johnson, Andrew (1865-1869)
18 Grant, Ulysses S. (1869-1877)
19 Hayes, Rutherford Birchard (1877-1881)
20 Garfield, James Abram (1881)
21 Arthur, Chester Alan (1881-1885)
22 Cleveland, Grover (1885-1889)
23 Harrison, Benjamin (1889-1893)
24 Cleveland, Grover (1893-1897)
25 McKinley, William (1897-1901)
26 Roosevelt, Theodore (1901-1909)
27 Taft, William Howard (1909-1913)
28 Wilson, Woodrow (1913-1921)
29 Harding, Warren Gamaliel (1921-1923)
30 Coolidge, Calvin (1923-1929)
31 Hoover, Herbert Clark (1929-1933)
32 Roosevelt, Franklin Delano (1933-1945)
33 Truman, Harry (1945-1953)
34 Eisenhower, Dwight David (1953-1961)
35 Kennedy, John Fitzgerald (1961-1963)
36 Johnson, Lyndon Baines (1963-1969)
37 Nixon, Richard Milhous (1969-1974)
38 Ford, Gerald Rudolph (1974-1977)
39 Carter, James Earl Jr. (1977-1981
40 Reagan, Ronald Wilson (1981-1989)
41 Bush, George Herbert Walker (1989-1993)
42 Clinton, William Jefferson (1993-2001)
43 Bush, George Walker (2001-present)

[extarbags]

Maybe, back in the day...

http://www.nynewsday.com/media/photo/2003-05/8005484.jpg

Hillary always looks, like, human in old pictures. You can actually see some idealism in her face. It's depressing to see her as the scowling, cynical political animal that she is now.

[Glenn]

Good point, but let's also remember which gender has had a better history of being elected to the White House.
...
Executive summary, please.

[Midnight Son]

Some of them had to be ugly chicks in drag.... Like Nixon.....

[Lum]

People always say "Hilary is too polarizing" like it means something. Hey, Bush is pretty damn polarizing too, and he got elected twice. Same with Bill Clinton. I don't necessarily think Hilary can get elected, but it's not because she's polarizing, because that's not even an argument, it's just a statement of fact.

I doubt Bush would be re-elected if he could run again. The numbers from this poll bear out my opinion.

Percent of people who rate this politician "unfavorably", followed by percent of people who don't know enough to hold an opinion. This combines data from several different polls, so is purely for illustration. Please, no wagering.

George W. Bush: 49% / 2%
Hillary Clinton: 45% / 2%
Dick Cheney: 44% / 16%
John Kerry: 38% / 13%
Howard Dean: 38% / 19%
Bill Clinton: 37% / 3%
Al Gore: 37% / 8%
Mark Warner: 16% / 43%
Rudy Guiliani: 14% / 10%
John McCain: 14% / 28%
George Allen: 14% / 49% (before Attack of the Macaca)
Barack Obama: 8% / 49%

Numbers: http://www.pollingreport.com/
Some analysis: http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2006/07/can_hillary_win.html

[ElGuapo]

From purely anecdotal evidence, women won't vote for her because she stayed with Bill after he admitted to cheating on her.

Almost every woman I've asked about it has said this, conservative and liberal alike.

[Midnight Son]

How easily people forget that the law making electronic voting mandatory had a clause prohibiting paper trails! So, of course Dubya could get "elected" again.

[LesJarvis]

I doubt Bush would be re-elected if he could run again. The numbers from this poll bear out my opinion.


[etc.]

But unless you're seriously going to argue that Bush wasn't a very polarizing figure in 2004, we can safely conclude that being very polarizing does not preclude one from getting elected.

The problem with asking people how favorably they view a politician or candidate is that elections don't happen in a one person vacuum. The question is not "do you view this person favorably?" It's "do you view this person more favorably than their opponent?" Generic congressional ballots are equally useless for similar reasons. The vast majority of American voters view congress in a negative light, but that's not going to stop them from overwhelmingly electing incumbents this fall. The problem in their minds isn't the candidates they actually get to vote for, it's all the other people in congress that they have no control over.

[shift6]

I believe we'll vote in a black or hispanic man before we vote in any woman. I think that the old boys clubs are ready for a darkie, but still won't take no lip from a woman. Barak FTW unless the DNC fucks it all up again (LOL WHO WANTS TO BET?)

[Glenn]

Rudy Guiliani: 14% / 10%
Wow, September 11th turned Giuliani into a Care Bear.

[Phil_Stein]

Wow, September 11th turned Giuliani into a Care Bear.

I suspect that in the heat of an actual national campaign, he would be far more vulnerable. I'm not an expert on Rudy, but I believe his last marriage flamed out rather publicly, and a rehashing of that will hurt him.

Also, voters may be leery of voting for someone who's had cancer. (Tsongas, IIRC, pronounced himself cured, but then died of it a few years later).

He still might win the Republican nomination or even the presidency, but don't put too much stock in these kinds of polls. Lots of politicians look like white knights until they've been in the spotlight a bit. Think Dean...

[extarbags]

Just a reminder: I've been saying Giuliani will be the '08 GOP candidate since before the '04 election.

[DerekSnider]

America is ready to vote for a female president - but I think a conservative candidate would have a better shot than a progressive one.

Agreed.

[Elton]

The problem with asking people how favorably they view a politician or candidate is that elections don't happen in a one person vacuum. The question is not "do you view this person favorably?" It's "do you view this person more favorably than their opponent?"
I think her opponent would be McCain, and that he would wallop her. I say she's got too much baggage because I remember that starting with the '92 election, before Hillary was remotely a known quantity, she was being continually savaged by Limbaugh and the like. It was ludicrously over-the-top and unfair, but it was sustained and I bet a lot of dummies absorbed that vitriol and still think of her as a loony feminazi. It's amazing that she has a unfavorable rating equivalent to Cheney's.

I hope Mark Warner beats her in the primaries. A Warner/McCain matchup would be excellent -- I honestly don't know who I'd pick. I've been drinking the McCain koolaid since 2000 but he admittedly is way more conservative than me on some issues. A business-y Democrat would hit the spot.

[Lum]

Mark Warner is basically Clinton minus the philandering. He'd be a strong candidate for the Democrats.

[noun]

I believe we'll vote in a black or hispanic man before we vote in any woman. I think that the old boys clubs are ready for a darkie, but still won't take no lip from a woman. Barak FTW unless the DNC fucks it all up again (LOL WHO WANTS TO BET?)

I've already seen signs that Obama's learned to tow the party line, so I'm not optimistic. Too bad, because he was AWESOME on the campaign trail.

[Flowers]

You know who I would like to vote for? Someone hot.

[Lum]

You know who I would like to vote for? Someone hot.

Here you go!
http://images.scripting.com/archiveScriptingCom/2005/12/03/harris.jpg

[DerekSnider]

Yikes!

[Flowers]

I meant a Bud Light!

[Lum]

Oh, like you'd throw her out of bed. Remember, at night she's probably not wearing her makeup!

[Peter Frazier]

It's funny, this question about Hillary Clinton. Only yesterday a colleague was swearing up and down that his brother who is big in the NY gay community knows a bodyguard of Hillarys who claims that she is often dropped off for good times with her female close companion.
Now, my colleague is full of shit at the best of times, but if a nasty little (untrue) meme like that has made it to a small city in Australia, imagine the utter shit storm of innuendo that would erupt if she made a serious bid.

[Flowers]

She looks like my friend Brad.

[arctangent]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/PollVault/story?id=1694406

March 7, 2006 — More than two years out, most Americans have favorable views of the two most talked about potential 2008 presidential candidates, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. But their support profiles are vastly different: Clinton, much stronger in her base; McCain, far more appealing beyond his.

Fifty-two percent in this ABC News/Washington Post poll have a favorable opinion of Clinton, compared with 59 percent for McCain. McCain's popularity is at once broader across partisan lines and less divisive in terms of intensity of sentiment. Yet the flip side is that he's considerably weaker among Republicans than Clinton is among Democrats.

[Derek Meister]

People always say "Hilary is too polarizing" like it means something. Hey, Bush is pretty damn polarizing too, and he got elected twice.

I think when people say that, they mean that the division she creates makes any election a gamble even in the best of situations. Why would you want?

Another way to look at it is that Kerry was very polarizing and he didn't get elected, and while Bush did get elected, it really could have gone either way.

[svenr]

"Had" being the operative word, since he was stabbed to death.

You make it sound like he was shot (not stabbed -- that was Theo van Gogh) because he was gay. He wasn't: he was shot by a radical environmentalist who apparently perceived a "danger to the weaker members of society" in Fortuyn.

[Brendan]

What sort of guy is McCain? Is he a little less psychotic than than Bush? Forgetting the fact that his is Republican, do you think he'd make a decent president? Is he a little more conservitive and a lot less batshit insane?

[Anders Hallin]

Hillary on the torture bill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNXxednKNtg&eurl=

[ydejin]

People always say "Hilary is too polarizing" like it means something. Hey, Bush is pretty damn polarizing too, and he got elected twice.


Another way to look at it is that Kerry was very polarizing and he didn't get elected, and while Bush did get elected, it really could have gone either way.

Also Bush played to the center in his first election (2000). He was portrayed as a "uniter not a divider" and he had a track record to prove it, working well with both parties as Texas Governor. He also had the "compassionate conservative" slogan, which again was an attempt to play to the center.

The second election was much easier, because he was already president; and Americans wan't to feel good about their president and tend to give a sitting president the benefit of doubt. Plus he was a wartime president, which also gave him some votes.

If Bush had played as hard right in the 2000 election as he did in the 2004 election, I doubt if he would have won.

[extarbags]

What sort of guy is McCain? Is he a little less psychotic than than Bush? Forgetting the fact that his is Republican, do you think he'd make a decent president? Is he a little more conservitive and a lot less batshit insane?

He's actually less conservative, in addition to being a lot less batshit insane. But he's also bereft of integrity, in contrast to the image that he projected in 2000. He's spent the past six years selling himself in unimaginable ways. That's what sort of guy he is.

[Idar Thorvaldsen]

The Netherlands had a gay leader of a major party (Pim Fortuyn). That's about as far as any major politician has come out of the closet.

A partial list, courtesy of Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_first_LGBT_holders_of_political_office s

It's not complete; the finance minister in our last government was gay, for instance.

[Elton]

Regarding McCain, I think "bereft of integrity" is a little much. Yeah, it would have been pretty sweet if McCain had battled Bush the last six years. I would have enjoyed it too. There's no way in hell he'd be the early Republican front-runner for '08 though. Recent history shows you cannot become president without selling out in some ways. Hillary's been tacking to the center on social issues in her own kind of triangulation strategy. Remember Ricky Ray Rector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Ray_Rector) and Sister Souljah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_Souljah_moment)? Or that Bush the Elder was the original person to mock Reagan's policies as "voodoo economics" before jumping on board as VP? McCain's not quite the cool-ass maverick he sold himself as in the '00 election, but he had no choice but to generally support Bush if he has any ambition, and at least he's been a thorn in Bush's side on some things like the current detainee legislation.

In "Consider the Lobster" by David Foster Wallace, he reprints an interesting piece he did for Rolling Stone magazine in 2000 where he followed the McCain campaign for a week. I took from it that McCain's still a politician playing political games -- he's just better at painting himself as a straight talker. But still the least objectionable Republican that I know of, and he's done ballsy, unpopular things like speak against milk subsidies in front of dairy-state crowds.

[Lum]

I think despite any sins McCain may have commited recently, his integrity and capacity for effective, moral leadership is heads and shoulders above any national politician since Bob Dole.

I mean, can you even imagine a Pentagon under a McCain administration issuing how-to-torture guidelines?

[extarbags]

During McCain's campaign for his anti-torture bill, he was asked what the president should do, if this law was on the books, but he was in a situation where torture was the only way to extract information from a terrorist. His response was this: He should do what he has to do.

I stand by my statement.

[svenr]

A partial list, courtesy of Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_first_LGBT_holders_of_political_office s

It's not complete; the finance minister in our last government was gay, for instance.

Off the top of my head, so was the previous chairman of the Dutch political party D'66, which, I admit, isn't a major party anymore these days, but they have been part of the government coalition almost continuously since 1994. I have no doubts that there are more gay politicians, but I don't keep a list.

I think Fortuyn's political success shows that people here wouldn't have a problem with a gay prime minister; support for his party came predominantly from right-wing voters, which is traditionally the block that you'd think would have a problem with a gay politician. I'm also confident that the prospect of a female prime minister wouldn't be a real factor in elections.

Race might be a different issue. I think a black candidate would fare worse than a white one, everything else being equal, and a muslim candidate would at the very least be highly controversial.

[Flowers]

Sister Souljah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_Souljah_moment)?
To weigh in on the allegation that Bill Clinton took a quote out of context from an activist in order to pick up votes in the center, that quote, in context, is worse. That woman is a lousy bigot, not the next Maya Angelou.

[Elton]

To weigh in on the allegation that Bill Clinton took a quote out of context from an activist in order to pick up votes in the center, that quote, in context, is worse. That woman is a lousy bigot, not the next Maya Angelou.

It's not a defense of Sister Souljah to say that Clinton timed his condemnation to distance himself from Jesse Jackson and the perception that the Democrats were beholden to the black vote. It was a brilliant move, but deciding to take on that obviously odious and racist statement is about as transparently political as it gets. Anyway, my point wasn't to pick on Clinton but to show that anyone aspiring to the presidency measures every statement and action against how it'll play to the masses. The ones who succeed did it the best.

[Lum]

During McCain's campaign for his anti-torture bill, he was asked what the president should do, if this law was on the books, but he was in a situation where torture was the only way to extract information from a terrorist. His response was this: He should do what he has to do.

I stand by my statement.

That's the equivalent of asking Mike Dukakis what he'd do if his wife were raped. Conjecture can only take you so far. Sounds like he took the Alan Dershowitz line; when given the choice between torturing or not torturing a terrorist whom you KNOW knows the location of a ticking WMD in a crowded city, torture becomes ethical.

That's a far cry from Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

[extarbags]

Except if he had any principles, he might have mentioned that that line of questioning is utter bullshit, and perhaps even explained the moral reasons behind opposition to torture.

[Lum]

Sure. He IS still a politician, and is no doubt already thinking about the Republican primaries where George Allen or whoever will paint him as "soft on terror" or some crap.

Didn't say he was perfect. Said he was the best choice we had. If you can name another national figure with more integrity and leadership I'm all ears. (I'll grant you Al Gore in his current incarnation but he has a history of morphing himself to follow polls during electoral campaigns.)

[jeffd]

that's not ballsy contrary. He opposed a pissant program in front of a tiny minority of the voters?

Ballsy would have been if he opposed this latest torture bill. He didn't - he put up some opposition, had a few words changed so he could keep up his "Maverick" image, and then totally knuckled under yet again.

I've seen nothing from McCain in these past six years to make me think I'd ever vote for him.

[Jason McCullough]

I think despite any sins McCain may have commited recently, his integrity and capacity for effective, moral leadership is heads and shoulders above any national politician since Bob Dole.

I mean, can you even imagine a Pentagon under a McCain administration issuing how-to-torture guidelines?

Apparently yes. He just voted for them.

[extarbags]

Didn't say he was perfect. Said he was the best choice we had. If you can name another national figure with more integrity and leadership I'm all ears. (I'll grant you Al Gore in his current incarnation but he has a history of morphing himself to follow polls during electoral campaigns.)

It's almost hard to think of someone with less integrity. Although I agree with him far less, I think I actually have more respect for, like, Orrin Hatch or even Rick Santorum. Santorum might be a fucking insane monster, but at least he has the fucking balls to be what he is.

[JeffL]

Hillary's problem isnt' that she's a woman - it is that she's very likely to be a crappy national candidate. She's got the Clinton name, but not the Clinton charm - she can really come across pretty brittle, especially when outside of rehearsed situations. Americans tend to vote for the person they consider the most likeable and McCain could come across as the elder statesman, war hero, non-partisan candidate that America would feel comfortable with. Doesn't matter that he's kow-towed to the party line here and there (he is a politician and understands he has to get the nomination before he can run for president) - he's got enough things he can point to where's he gone against the party line that he can make some really good TV spots. Basically, in my cynic mode, McCain will make a lot better TV ads than Hillary, will look a lot more comforting to much of America standing next to her in a debate, etc.

I still would MUCH prefer a McCain/pick your favorite moderate democrat Independant ticket. I know an independant can't win in this country, but I'd love to see the havoc in Washington of a popular independent president. And now's probably as good a time as any - America doesn't have a lot of love for either party.

[jeffd]

jeff: I'm not being confrontational - I'm actually wondering this because I"m at a loss: What substantive positions has McCain taken against the Bush administration in the past six years?

I mean he's done some piddly shit, but it seems like for the most part he just knuckles under. He did pass through that anti-torture bill (you know, the one the President declared he'd ignore). This Geneva Convention thing really left a sour taste in my mouth regarding McCain.

[chemdem]

Good point, but... (List of PotUS)

It does not follow. In the future, it is polite to read the preceding messages in a given thread before responding. Otherwise people might think that you are padding your post count.

[extarbags]

What? You posted a list of female governors, and then said "and remember which branch gets elected," followed by a list of male Senators who've failed to be elected President, as though that's some indicator that we're going to be watching Christie Whitman's inaugural address in two and a half years.

[GrinR]

I'd vote for Hillary because I don't know of anyone who would kick more ass in the GWOT than her.

[Athryn]

Why is it that when people discuss women politicans, they have to start showing pictures, like their looks have anything to do with their ability to govern. It's just an example of just how even subtle sexism still exists, and why this country isn't going to elect a female president any time soon.

[MikeSofaer]

Why is it that when people discuss women politicans, they have to start showing pictures, like their looks have anything to do with their ability to govern. It's just an example of just how even subtle sexism still exists, and why this country isn't going to elect a female president any time soon.Of course their looks have an affect on their ability to govern. There's a reason that Margaret Thatcher was so awesome.

[chemdem]

What? You posted a list of female governors, and then said "and remember which branch gets elected," followed by a list of male Senators who've failed to be elected President, as though that's some indicator that we're going to be watching Christie Whitman's inaugural address in two and a half years.

I couldn't find a summary list of all-time U.S. female governors, but here's the list of current governors (I think it's as of 2006):

All time list of female US Senators...

The closest proxy (IMO) to open-mindedness about a potential female president is how an area has voted for female senators. Obviously, coastal states like New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Oregon are much better in this respect than us flyover states like say Missouri, Nebraska, Kansas, and Louisiana, but let's take a look anyways, shall we?

Lets also remember for a moment which branch has had such a great history of being elected to the White House...

D00d. No matter how many tens, hundreds, or even thousands of miles away you might be I am frowning at you. While not as bad as rolling my eyes in disbelief, and not as long in duration as my insolent glare(I have a talent for glaring, ask my family), my frown is a tool only employed on a very infrequent basis. Considering the prodigious rate at which Google caches web pages, my frown from afar may be saved for posterity's sake. Thought it would be the posterior of posterity.

[bigdruid]

Why is it that when people discuss women politicans, they have to start showing pictures, like their looks have anything to do with their ability to govern. It's just an example of just how even subtle sexism still exists, and why this country isn't going to elect a female president any time soon.

For the record, there was *one* picture in this thread, I posted it, and it had nothing to do with Hillary's ability to govern.

It was in response to the question of whether I would have sex with Hillary. And the answer was, yes, when she was young and pretty (<picture inserted>).

Whether this meets the standard for sexism ("Prejudice or discrimination based on gender") depends on your point of view. I think it was an off-topic discussion of sexuality in a boring thread that desperately needed some T&A to spice it up.

Unless you are saying that we shouldn't even notice that Hillary is a woman? I'm a liberal, not a goddamn neuter.

Edit: Whoops, I forgot about Lum's hot cowgirl picture. Now *that* was totally sexist.

[Chris Nahr]

Why is it that when people discuss women politicans, they have to start showing pictures, like their looks have anything to do with their ability to govern. It's just an example of just how even subtle sexism still exists, and why this country isn't going to elect a female president any time soon.

Did you see the Al Gore thread? All politicians have to look fit and tanned and generally athletic in a TV society, and that seems to apply to America most of all. I don't recall pictures of any US politician that I would qualify as "ugly". European politicians are allowed to be less handsome, it seems, but again that applies to both sexes.

[shift6]

Why is it that when people discuss women politicans, they have to start showing pictures, like their looks have anything to do with their ability to govern. It's just an example of just how even subtle sexism still exists, and why this country isn't going to elect a female president any time soon.
We posted many more lists of female leaders in addition to the two pics in this thread (one of the person under discussion) came up. We also had a thread posting pics of Al Gore's newly inaugurated spare tire as well. Americans love to see how good looking (or not) their leaders are.

Also to chemdem and others: Athryn isn't a dood.

[Midnight Son]

McCain backing down on the torture bill shows exactly where he's at. Showboating, then giving in. No vote for him, ever.

[chemdem]

We posted many more lists of female leaders in addition to the two pics in this thread (one of the person under discussion) came up. We also had a thread posting pics of Al Gore's newly inaugurated spare tire as well. Americans love to see how good looking (or not) their leaders are.

Also to chemdem and others: Athryn isn't a dood.

What an over arching appeal to my vanity. If only I was worthy of this well meaning and informative mention. If only I had wanted this honor ascribed to my good name. But, alas despite what must be the most noble of intentions, I have been for some time well aware of (k)Athryn's status as a female. This understanding has arisen from her own words: Athryn on her gender (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?p=584468#post584468).

Also, the reason that I posted that list of current/former female state governors was for the most narrow and unassuming purpose. It had nothing to do with any desire for other forum members to Google up potentially lascivious pictures that they may at their discretion post here. Nor was it from any desire to reinforce the general shallowness of Americans in regards to their public figures beauty or lack thereof. Thus I would suggest that the topical and demographic nature of this open forum have much more to do with Athryn's concerns over its gender related sense of propriety.

[Lum]

I think you all just resent my ability to find funny pictures of Katherine Harris.

http://www.wonkette.com/assets/resources/2006/08/GUNZ4.jpg

[Qenan]

I've seen nothing from McCain in these past six years to make me think I'd ever vote for him.

Yeah, I agree with that. But Hillary isn't a candidate I see myself voting for either. Next!