Splinter Cell: Double Agent

[Gary Whitta]

So I'm watching some videos online for Splinter Cell Double Agent, and it occurs to me that the developers, from the way they're talking about it, don't actually know what a double agent is.

Wiki puts it succintly enough: "A double agent pretends to spy on a target organization on behalf of a controlling organization, but in fact is loyal to the target organization. Double agents may be agents of the target organization who infiltrate the controlling organization, or may be previously loyal agents of the controlling organization who have been captured and turned by the target."

In the game Sam Fisher is inflitrating a terrorist cell, pretending to be one of them. Okay fine, so he's a spy, an agent. But to be a *double* agent he'd have to be actually only pretending to spy on the terrorist cell, and in fact spying *for* them on the NSA. So unless the developers have some VERY big surprises for us about what Sam Fisher's really about, haven't they got it wrong?

[/pedant]

[balut]

Yes. Exactly.

[GrinR]

Perhaps they mean double the price?

[Gary Whitta]

Perhaps they mean double the price?
They announced it for PS3?

[andrew_fm]

When Singles 2: Triple Trouble came out, I was kind of annoyed because if a game is a second in a series than the obvious subtitle is "Double Trouble" which both recalls that it's the second game in the series and is also a delicious pun. Ok, so there are three people in the house, but does "triple trouble" mean that you, the player, is one element of the trouble? Since it's you and two chicks it seems like there's only two real unstable elements, hence making "double" a more fitting description. Also "Triple Trouble" suggests the possibility of a threesome which sadly is impossible, so in a way it's false advertising.

In conclusion, Singles 2: Triple Trouble is full of contrasts.

[delirium]

Maybe the story develops into Sam "spying" on the NSA? If he's pretending to be a terrorist it seems reasonable that he could pretend to spy on the NSA to feed the terrorists disinformation.

[GrinR]

They announced it for PS3?

Well played, sir, well played!

[Gary Whitta]

Maybe the story develops into Sam "spying" on the NSA? If he's pretending to be a terrorist it seems reasonable that he could pretend to spy on the NSA to feed the terrorists disinformation.
Well the developer said in the video that you have two sets of objectives to complete, one for the NSA and one for the terrorists. But even if the theory above is true, that still doesn't make him a double agent. That just means he's under deep, deep cover. To be a real double agent he'd have to be actually fucking over the US government on behalf of the terrorists.

I'm pretty sure Fisher isn't actually going to turn out to be a true double agent, unless UbiSoft wants to start making terrorist simulations. Although they *are* french...

[delirium]

To be a real double agent he'd have to be actually fucking over the US government on behalf of the terrorists.


Why? In the wiki quote you pasted, it says a double agent only has to pretend to spy on a target organization (the one he's really working for). Why would a double agent need to fuck over the people he's really working for?

[Gary Whitta]

Why? In the wiki quote you pasted, it says a double agent only has to pretend to spy on a target organization. Why would a double agent need to fuck over the people he's really working for?
Because that's the definition of a double agent.

Sam fisher's controlling organization = NSA
Sam Fisher's target organization = terrorists

As a double agent inserted by the NSA into the terrorist cell, he'd be pretending to spy on the terrorists, but actually be spying on the NSA for the terrorists.

[Old Man Gravy]

"Pretends to spy on a target organization on behalf of a controlling organization, but in fact is loyal to the target organization."

Substitute "U.S. government" for "target organization" and "terror cell" for "controlling organization." The infiltration part is making the terror cell believe that they're the actual controlling organization.

I think that the way the wiki has it worded is kind of unclear, though.

[Gary Whitta]

The wiki says, "pretends to spy on a target organization on behalf of a controlling organization, but in fact is loyal to the target organization."

Substitute "U.S. government" for "target organization" and "terror cell" for "controlling organization." The infiltration part is making the terror cell believe that they're the actual controlling organization.
So you're saying that in the game Sam Fisher is pretending to infiltrate the US government on behalf of the terrorists?

[delirium]

Because that's the definition of a double agent.

Sam fisher's controlling organization = NSA
Sam Fisher's target organization = terrorists

As a double agent inserted by the NSA into the terrorist cell, he'd be pretending to spy on the terrorists, but actually be spying on the NSA for the terrorists.

That's a matter of perspective, though. All it really means is that he's making one organization (controlling) believe he is spying on another organization (target) when he is really working for the target. To the terrorists, they are planting him in the NSA to spy for them... they are the controlling organization as far as they are concerned. They don't know he's really working for the NSA, the target.

[DanielElliot]

I read you get a KOTOR-style alignment meter as you make decisions throughout the game. There could easily be an "evil" ending where you do actually betray the NSA.

[Old Man Gravy]

No, I think you've got that wrong, and have your "target/control" assignments back to front.

Oddly, I was going to say the same thing to you. JINX!

edit: caught you in a stealth edit you sneaky limey bastard! And yeah, that was what I assumed, just based on the name of the game and what I'd seen about it.

[Gary Whitta]

Oddly, I was going to say the same thing to you. JINX!
I can kind of see it both ways now, although the more I think about it the more it makes my head hurt.

I actually always thought that a double agent was one who was genuinely spying on both target and control, selling real information from one to the other and vice versa, without either side knowing that in fact both were being fucked over.

[Gary Whitta]

I read you get a KOTOR-style alignment meter as you make decisions throughout the game. There could easily be an "evil" ending where you do actually betray the NSA.
That would be great, but what would be the franchise implications? Because, you know, there are going to be about 100 more Splinter Cell games after this one, and that's only on THIS generation.

[RedTide]

That would be great, but what would be the franchise implications? Because, you know, there are going to be about 100 more Splinter Cell games after this one, and that's only on THIS generation.
They'll probably just stick with the "good" ending for future sequels.

[Gary Whitta]

They'll probably just stick with the "good" ending for future sequels.
Can you say reset button? FUCK THAT.

[Rob_Merritt]

I just hope they make Splinter Cell: The NOT Fucking Impossible Episode. I stopped playing after the first few because they kicked my ass and made me all emo.

[Zuwadza]

I just hope they make Splinter Cell: The NOT Fucking Impossible Episode. I stopped playing after the first few because they kicked my ass and made me all emo.

I've never found any of them to be super hard. If you found the first two hard then you should try the third. I originally played the third on hard, because I had heard that it could be too easy, and still found it far too easy. If you want a difficult Splinter Cell experience try playing online with strangers. Whoa!

[TomChick]

Actually, I'm with Gary on this one. Someone who works for the US govt to infiltrate a terrorist organization is just a Single Agent. Double Agent implies being one step deeper than that.

I'm going to chalk this one up as what happens when we let a French-speaking company like UbiSoft make games about America.

-Tom

[John Merva]

Actually, I'm with Gary on this one. Someone who works for the US govt to infiltrate a terrorist organization is just a Single Agent. Double Agent implies being one step deeper than that.

I'm going to chalk this one up as what happens when we let a French-speaking company like UbiSoft make games about America.

-Tom

I think the point is that the terrorists think that they are using him to spy on the govt. but he is really spying for the govt. To them, he is a double agent. However, he is actually spying on the terrorists for the govt. whilst being used to spy on the govt. by the terrorists, whilst actually working for the govt.
I got confused typing that, which means that Sam Fisher, who is actually doing it, AND knows how to use all the high-tech gadgets, is one smart cookie.

[DanielElliot]

If the terrorists sent him back to the government, thinking that he was spying for them now, but he was really still working for the government, that would be double agent. Or if he really switched his loyalties to the terrorists, but kept sending fake reports back to the government because they didn't realize, then that would be a double agent. If he's working for the government, and tells the terrorists that he's joining them, that's just undercover work. There has to be one more layer to it for it to be "double".

[John Merva]

If the terrorists sent him back to the government, thinking that he was spying for them now, but he was really still working for the government, that would be double agent.

Isn't that what he's doing?

[TomChick]

If John is right, then my faith in Ubisoft's nomenclature is restored. But my impression -- admittedly poorly informed -- was that Sam Fisher was merely going undercover, which is typical Single Agent stuff.

-Tom

[Alan Au]

He's a double agent if you consider that the terrorists think he's working for them. Really though, they should have called it SC:Undercover or SC:Infiltration or something. Plus, the whole Sam Fisher/Splinter Cell branding thing is getting silly; I'm half expecting Ubisoft to announce a Sam Fisher kart-racer or golf game.

- Alan

[TomChick]

He's a double agent if you consider that the terrorists think he's working for them.

No, that's just Single Agent, isn't it? If it's merely the same as being undercover, it doesn't count as Double Agent.

-Tom

[John Merva]

If John is right, then my faith in Ubisoft's nomenclature is restored. But my impression -- admittedly poorly informed -- was that Sam Fisher was merely going undercover, which is typical Single Agent stuff.

-Tom

To be honest, I haven't got a clue. I think he may be a double agent in that he is pretending to work with terrorists and then feeding information to the govt.

As a disclaimer, I should point out that I'm not even sure how to pronounce Ubisoft - Yoobisoft? Oobisoft?

[Gary Whitta]

To be honest, I haven't got a clue. I think he may be a double agent in that he is pretending to work with terrorists and then feeding information to the govt.
Again, that just makes him a plain old deep cover agent. To be a double agent the terrorists would have to believe that they are using him to infiltrate the NSA and feed information back to them. In reality, the NSA would be feeding bad information back to the terrorists via Fisher while he provides the NSA with the real dirt on the terrorists. THAT'S a double agent.

[John Merva]

Again, that just makes him a plain old deep cover agent. To be a double agent the terrorists would have to believe that they are using him to infiltrate the NSA and feed information back to them. In reality, the NSA would be feeding bad information back to the terrorists via Fisher while he provides the NSA with the real dirt on the terrorists. THAT'S a double agent.

Sorry, when I say 'working with the terrorists' I mean that they think they are sending him on missions into the NSA to gain information whereas he is actually feeding information to the NSA about them.
To be honest, I'm too confused with this to really know what he is. The pronunciation issue is bugging me as well. Should his name really be pronounced Sam Fishay as it's a French company?

I just don't know anymore.

[ElGuapo]

Look, it's simple. I think. It all depends on who kills you if they find out your real role.

Regular agent aka spy. You work for one group (say, the CIA). You infiltrate the target group (say, taar-rists). If the target group finds out you are an agent, they kill you. Because you lied to them and only pretended to be friends with them.

Double agent. You typically start out working for the control group, but get turned. You work for the CIA and spy on the taar-rists. Then you see their plight and decide to switch sides. You go to work for the tarr-ists and actually feed the tarr-rists info about the CIA, pretending to be a CIA agent still, going to the office picnic, etc.

I don't think there is a triple agent. If you go back to working with the CIA, you're just an agent again, pretending to be a double agent.

[Gary Whitta]

I don't think there is a triple agent. If you go back to working with the CIA, you're just an agent again, pretending to be a double agent.
From the same Wiki:

"A triple agent pretends to be a double agent for the target organization, but in fact is working for the controlling organization all along. Usually, he keeps the trust of the target organization by feeding information to them which is apparently very important, but is in fact misleading or useless."

[delirium]

Double agent. You typically start out working for the control group, but get turned.

I think this is where the confusion lies. Do you actually have to get turned to be a double agent? The way I see it, you only have to make side A believe you are infiltrating and spying on side B, when you are really working for side B and feeding side A misinformation. I don't see the spy's original intentions as being a factor in whether he is labeled a double agent.

[delirium]

From the same Wiki:

"A triple agent pretends to be a double agent for the target organization, but in fact is working for the controlling organization all along. Usually, he keeps the trust of the target organization by feeding information to them which is apparently very important, but is in fact misleading or useless."

thanks, my brain just exploded.

[Alan Au]

Maybe they should have just called it Splinter Cell: Quintuple Agent, seeing as Sam Fisher is worth, what, five times as much as a regular agent?

- Alan

[BlueJackalope]

What about an agent who plays both ends for personal gain a' la Clint Eastwood in Fistfull of Dollars? (substitute Mexican land barons for taar-ists and the NSA).

And what does Sam Fisher have to gain? Here's the real swerve - Sam Fisher is Michael Ironside who is - Darryl Revok (http://imdb.com/title/tt0081455/) "There's a whole generation of scanners soldiers just a few months away from being born. We'll find them. Train them to be like us. Not like Obrist and their band of cripples. We'll bring the world of normals to their knees. We'll build an empire so brilliant, so glorious. We'll be the envy of the whole planet."

I, for one, welcome our new scanner overlords.

[andrew_fm]

I don't think there is a triple agent. If you go back to working with the CIA, you're just an agent again, pretending to be a double agent.Didn't you play MGS3? At the end Revolver Ocelot revealed that he was a triple agent, working for the CIA while pretending to work for the KGB while pretending to work for Volgin while pretending to work for GRU. Or something.

[Moore]

Well the developer said in the video that you have two sets of objectives to complete, one for the NSA and one for the terrorists. But even if the theory above is true, that still doesn't make him a double agent. That just means he's under deep, deep cover. To be a real double agent he'd have to be actually fucking over the US government on behalf of the terrorists.

I'm pretty sure Fisher isn't actually going to turn out to be a true double agent, unless UbiSoft wants to start making terrorist simulations. Although they *are* french...

Or maybe it branches 3 ways, obvious NSA guy, NSA guy who becomes a terrorist, and NSA guy who cleverly fools the terrorists and completes all objectives and gets the 'real' ending?

[John Merva]

Didn't you play MGS3? At the end Revolver Ocelot revealed that he was a triple agent, working for the CIA while pretending to work for the KGB while pretending to work for Volgin while pretending to work for GRU. Or something.

Actually, I think that was precisely the sort of thing which made me give up Metal Gear games for lost.

[TomChick]

In the UbiSoft info that was leaked recently (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=19863), we see the name of the next Splinter Cell games is Splinter Cell: Conviction. Hmm. As in convicted of a crime conviction?

So maybe Sam Fisher is a dirty triple-crossing no-good bona fide double agent after all!

-Tom

[DanielElliot]

Or he resisted the temptation to commit a crime due to his strong conviction! It works both ways! BRILLIANT!

[Mark Crump]

Maybe he's just on double-secret probation.