NWN versus NWN2

[awdougherty]

Been flipping around the NWN2 boards and reading through the two NWN threads here. Finally finishing up the 2nd NWN expansion with a friend and enjoying it quite a bit. The original really had legs. It now offers a solid toolset with plenty of content, a DM client, epic levels, prestiege classes, and an almost infinite amount of play.

NWN2 is one of my most anticipated games, a first day purchase for me. But it will lack a DM client, Obsidian is already dropping the money excuse, Atari seems on shaky ground financially, and I'm getting the feeling that NWN2 will be a fun game but not something that actually can replace the original NWN.

NWN just got its latest patch, 5 years after release. Bioware did a pretty excellent job providing their own content to keep the game going (Witch's Wake, 2 expansions, Premium Modules) and obviously the fans have embraced the game.

Assuming the worst, NWN2 can come out, Atari can not support the game financially, Obsidian can cut ties, and we end up with a game that does not have epic levels, no patch support for the long haul, no expansions, no DM client, and no long term following... a Temple of Elemental Evil if you will.

Arguably, NWN can provide a reasonable online D&D experience covering most of the rules (whether they are covered well is another argument). It can basically supplant the PnP experience if you needed it to.

Will NWN2 ever accomplish this the way the original has? Will the masses still be playing NWN in 5 years or will NWN2 become the online D&D tool of choice?

[Rob_Merritt]

If enough tools are released, I think NWN2 will be the defacto standard eventually. Thats a big if though

[Jason Becker]

I'll agree that the game will probably not have the same level of support Bioware was able to give it, but I'm not really sad about not having a DM client. I doubt that many people really used it. To get effective use required a very good DM who was willing to learn the toolset so most people either played solo or in MP without a live DM anyways.

[Balasarius]

Given that KoTOR2 sucked when compared to KoTOR, and when factoring in the money issue, it's a given that NWN2 will pale in comparison to NWN, and will be forgotten within a year.

However, KoTOR2 was a fun game, if inferior. Perhaps NWN2 can still be that.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

I'll agree that the game will probably not have the same level of support Bioware was able to give it, but I'm not really sad about not having a DM client. I doubt that many people really used it. To get effective use required a very good DM who was willing to learn the toolset so most people either played solo or in MP without a live DM anyways.

At most 10 per cent of buyers actually ever used the client themselves - maybe 20 per cent had an experience with a live DM, and very few regularly.

I wouldn't be surprised, though, if a lot of the modded content came from people who used the DM client - people who had a sense of pacing, an idea of what worked in a game and what didn't. Tool development, tile sets, monster packs...a lot can be traced back to people who wanted to do cool stuff for a campaign they were running.

Not to mention the improbable "persistent" worlds that grew up around NWN.

You certainly shouldn't cater development towards the hardcore audience, especially if it intrudes on core development. And the DM client would have been much more successful if Bioware had done anything to document it in the early going.

But I think that the client had spinoff effects for the entire community. (Plus it has kept my wife amused for years now.)

Troy

[roguefrog]

Considering NWN's offical campaign is terrible, I'm expecting NWN2 to be MUCH better right out of the gate in terms of single player.

[Rob_Merritt]

Considering NWN's offical campaign is terrible, I'm expecting NWN2 to be MUCH better right out of the gate in terms of single player.


I'm expecting that as well. I hope I'm not setting myself up for dissapointment.

[awdougherty]

I definitely agree in hoping that the single player will be better right off the bat. Also, from what little I've seen, the technology of NWN2 has real potential for the long run. I love a lot of the changes to the toolset, but I do feel a DM client is necessary for really long-run success.

[olaf]

I want a single player experience akin to BG2. I dont care about anything else.

[Kevin Grey]

I'm expecting an excellent single player too but I seriously doubt that NWN 2 will have the legs that the first game had. Obsidian just doesn't have the same resources that Bioware had and Atari is useless as backup here. I kind of wish that Bioware would have maintained the community management with Obsidan subcontracted out for the coding and content.

[Matt Perkins]

Given that KoTOR2 sucked when compared to KoTOR, and when factoring in the money issue, it's a given that NWN2 will pale in comparison to NWN, and will be forgotten within a year.

However, KoTOR2 was a fun game, if inferior. Perhaps NWN2 can still be that.
Boy are we on different pages. KoTOR2 easily out did the first, even with it's broken end game. The story was interesting and engaging. As were the characters.

That's what I'm hoping for from NWN2.

[Shadari]

I kind of wish that Bioware would have maintained the community management with Obsidan subcontracted out for the coding and content.
Bioware already hosts the official forums for NWN2, so maybe... just maybe that is the plan. Of course, that's mostly just wishful thinking.

[awdougherty]

One of the things Obsidian has said is Atari needs to pay for X and Y. Does Atari still send checks to Bioware for all the NWN work or does Bioware somehow self-finance with premium modules or something?

[Derek French]

NWN just got its latest patch, 5 years after release
4 years, actually, but thanks for the bonus year!

[OrfBC]

I smell another Temple of Elemental Evil. Horribly buggy and the dev not working on patches because they aren't getting paid. It probably doesn't help that I'm constantly getting Obsidian and Troika confused, though.

I'm on a big NWN kick right now, anyway, so I don't mind. Have a lot of modules to catch up on.

[eliandi]

I am concerned about the DM client
I am concerned about multiplayer (possible server upload requirements beyond home broadband capacity)
I am concerned about the area limit within modules
I am concerned they made the toolset to difficult to use, and too slow to use.
I am concerned about Atari's commitment to the product post-launch

So I keep DMing my weekly NWN campaign and playing a few NWN mods, but I will wait and see how things work out for NWN2. I will not be buying on Day 1, however.

[Quaro]

I wouldn't be surprised, though, if a lot of the modded content came from people who used the DM client - people who had a sense of pacing, an idea of what worked in a game and what didn't. Tool development, tile sets, monster packs...a lot can be traced back to people who wanted to do cool stuff for a campaign they were running.

Not to mention the improbable "persistent" worlds that grew up around NWN.


That's it exactly. I've never used the DM client, but it seems like the people slaving away at their modules tend to use it a lot, and I do end up playing their work.


One of the things Obsidian has said is Atari needs to pay for X and Y. Does Atari still send checks to Bioware for all the NWN work or does Bioware somehow self-finance with premium modules or something?

Anyone know the answer to this? Bioware has one such a good job -- is it just because supporting the game keeps selling copies?

[Slainte Mhath]

I got to mess with NWN2 at GenCon and I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to get into. I think as long as it doesn't ship with tons of minor bugs it should be a solid seller as a single player game.

I am deeply worried about the long term prospects for it though. NWN was perhaps the first internet age game of it's kind. It embraced moddable content like no other game before it, and the abiility to share and play that content over the internet with the full blessing and support of the creators has given it a longevity that is unrivaled. There is a large and seriously commited fanbase for NWN, and it could easily be transferred to NWN2 if (and it's a BIG if) the tools and developer support are there.

Unfortunately, I get the feeling that NWN2 is seen as a money making short-term bailout for Atari, and that unless Obsidian steps up and does a grass-roots support for modders, NWN2 will not see the longevity of it's parent game.

[DeepT]

What is NWN2 offering over NWN? Just better graphics and a chance to re-buy the tile sets again?

Or have they handled epic levels better, have more classes, etc..?

[Alan Au]

I can't comment too much on this, but the NWN2 core feature-set is definitely an improvement over the first game. At first blush, my impression is that NWN2:NWN as Fallout2:Fallout. The editing tools are also really powerful (basically what Obsidian used to make the game). However, since I didn't do much with the NWN tools, I can't speak to their comparative ease-of-use.

- Alan

[awdougherty]

Maybe there is a hiccup in the release of this game like there was with the original NWN. Didn't NWN get held up a bit when it was getting switched over from Interplay to Atari? Maybe something similar will happen, a breach of contract on Atari's part or something like that, and Obsidian will miraculously be allowed to move NWN2 to a real publisher with some legs and a reputation of supporting products.

Glad to hear the tools were pretty accessible in NWN2. I think the potential is there to really bring some great atmosphere to homemade modules now that you're somewhat free of the strict tiling system. I don't mind using my imagination with NWN, but I always found the outdoor tile sets limiting. I feel like a more wide open exterior could help distract from potentially somewhat repetitive interior tile sets in NWN2.

[Sarkus]

I am concerned about Atari's commitment to the product post-launch


I'm not too concerned about Atari. It's not like they own the D&D rights in perpetuity. They control the game rights at the moment, but if they collapse those will revert back to Hasbro/WoTC. Either way, it would be stupid of Atari or whoever to abandon NWN2 when they can relatively cheaply produce content expansions.

I'm also willing to give Obsidian the benefit of the doubt that they will produce a good single player experience. While KOTOR 2 was clearly not what it should have been, that's the fault of LucasArts pushing the release date up several months relatively late in the development process. Under those circumstances all Obsidian could do was wrap up what they had and try to make it as neat as they could. It was certainly better than TOEE in that regard.

[John Reynolds]

What is NWN2 offering over NWN? Just better graphics and a chance to re-buy the tile sets again?

Or have they handled epic levels better, have more classes, etc..?

It'll hopefully ship with a SP campaign that's actually worth playing.

[Equisilus]

I think most folk will go with NWN2, regardless of difficulties with Atari. As already mentioned, most people just want another single player game to play, so any support besides patches after the initial release is going to just be a bonus. The community drove NWN, and it'll do the same for NWN2 if only because NWN2 is newer and prettier.

[Raife]

It'll hopefully ship with a SP campaign that's actually worth playing.

As long as they have a lot of barrels and crates that I can dig through for baubles, I'll be happy.

[roguefrog]

The "look in crate" thing is a BioWare pastime IIRC. NWN and KotOR both had a lot of it (especially the former). KotOR2 not so much.

[Equisilus]

That's 'cause KotOR2 wasn't a BioWare game, of course.

Why people pick on the barrels/crates, I don't know. Sure, it doesn't make much sense, but neither is all the loot that pops out of bodies in other games (like TQ, and it has neat little piles of bones everywhere). It's just a game mechanic for delivering the goods.

Bio downplayed the barrel/crate stuff in expansions to NWN, I do believe.

[Dhruin]

There are a number of improvements (height-map external terrain, prefabs, stackable items ...) that will allow mod-builders to get much closer to their vision than the cookie-cutter NWN look. Unless it's overwhelmingly buggy/broken, it won't take long for SP mods to embrace this over NWN.

There are obvious reasons that PW or MP might lag behind but otherwise, NWN2 will power ahead.

[Steel_Wind]

That's 'cause KotOR2 wasn't a BioWare game, of course.

Why people pick on the barrels/crates, I don't know. Sure, it doesn't make much sense, but neither is all the loot that pops out of bodies in other games (like TQ, and it has neat little piles of bones everywhere). It's just a game mechanic for delivering the goods.

Bio downplayed the barrel/crate stuff in expansions to NWN, I do believe.

Casual players used to "Action RPGs" like it and seem to expect it. The crate nonsense is replete throughout Oblivion as well.

Not my cuppa... *shrug*

[caesarbear]

A good RPG should reward players for exploring, but the loot in every rainbarrel approach is just so nauseatingly dumb.

[roguefrog]

They could really use a crate monster like the mimic chest.

[McBain]

It was certainly better than TOEE in that regard.

Wait, in what regard?

ToEE had a plot?

[Hammet]

As long as they have a lot of barrels and crates that I can dig through for baubles, I'll be happy.
Me, I prefer bodies. Dead bodies. A lot of dead bodies. Corpses in extraordinary quantities. Using corpses as containers might be The most abused idea in the starting levels for rpg's. KOTOR II (which was decent anyway) and NWN's original, mindbogglingly horrid, SP campaign spring to mind. I wonder if they'll keep the "you only get 10% of the xp for killing NPC's since we KNOW the kiddies want a lot of killing" rules from NWN? That SP campaign was my biggest rpg disappointment I think. Worse than ending up with a bugged save in Fallout 2 that made me quit the game halfway. I still want to punch someone when I think of that SP campaign.

[Equisilus]

Casual players used to "Action RPGs" like it and seem to expect it. The crate nonsense is replete throughout Oblivion as well.

Not my cuppa... *shrug*

Certainly, perhaps the reason I'm not particularly bothered by the crates/barrels/chests or whatnot is because I play a spectrum of RPGs so am used to the idea of what they represent. I should point out that I'm not promoting them. In fact, I think games like NWN are better off without them and having those more complex ways of delivering rewards for exploration. However, when they are there, I get the reasoning behind them and do not look at them as being detrimental to the world design (depending on the feel of the game, of course).

[McBain]

The problem with NwN was not that you had to search stuff, so much as that you had to sit through stupid animations.

Bashing a crate? Let's watch fifteen swings. Now let's watch the character bend over to examine the item bag...

*************ARGH***********

[Mark Asher]

The problem with NwN was not that you had to search stuff, so much as that you had to sit through stupid animations.

Bashing a crate? Let's watch fifteen swings. Now let's watch the character bend over to examine the item bag...

*************ARGH***********

There were also way too many containers to search. Way too many dialog trees as well.

[McBain]

That's true, too.

As I recall, most of the good loot could be found (seemingly at random) in crates and chests. And yeah, there were a lot of them. At one point I decided to just open the cheat console to give myself money rather than open another crate.

Game was a lot more enjoyable after that.

[unbongwah]

What is NWN2 offering over NWN? Just better graphics and a chance to re-buy the tile sets again?
What part of "sequel" didn't you understand? ;-)


Or have they handled epic levels better, have more classes, etc..?
It does offer a few new classes (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=492737&forum=95), but the level cap is set at 20 (same as the original NWN), which strikes me as odd.

[DeepT]

The problem with NwN was not that you had to search stuff, so much as that you had to sit through stupid animations.

Bashing a crate? Let's watch fifteen swings. Now let's watch the character bend over to examine the item bag...

*************ARGH***********


One Word: Fireballs

[Kunikos]

I want a single player experience akin to BG2. I dont care about anything else.

Agreed. The community will be created if not many from NWN1 come over *if* the original campaign is very good and sells copies on the merits of the single player experience alone.

[DeepT]

What part of "sequel" didn't you understand? ;-)


It does offer a few new classes (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=492737&forum=95), but the level cap is set at 20 (same as the original NWN), which strikes me as odd.

Hmm, that isn't to good to hear. The big problem with NWN when you played on the persistent worlds was that all the epic stuff was either wildly broken, or useless. Most of the 'cool' stuff from PnP was never put in.

For example, epic mages gained next to nothing for being epic. Sure hell ball was nice, but what about your level 1 to 9 spells? You could get a dragon knight at level 21, but by the time you are fighting level 24 mobs, the dragon knight is barely a speed bump. In PnP they handle such things.

Of course there were countless nerfs (player driven) to the Dwarven Defender who almost became immune to damage especially when loot ended up with damage reduction items out the whazoo.

They really need to consider the PnP solutions to those problems before just tack on another 20 levels.


Speaking of persistent worlds, have they done anything to help with some of the big issues, such as respawning areas (instead of making the player script every last thing), and the god awful lag if you managed to host more then 30 people at once?

[Kunikos]

They could really use a crate monster like the mimic chest.

My brain hurts from trying to figure out how that affects the zero to crate rating of a game.

[roguefrog]

All I know is Cleric > All

[Kunikos]

I had always been partial to making Fighter/Cleric Dwarves in AD&D 2E, but the 3+E rules are still rather new to me and I haven't figured out how to best exploit them in a similar fashion.

[roguefrog]

Yeah, if you want to be the best you can be, Cleric all the way.

Clerics can wear full plate(Divine Magic has 0% spell failure) + Buff out to be better than a fighter (Divine Power and Righteous Might) + can still cast spells + no spell learning required (Divine Magic is that good) + Harm = You now have 1d4 hp Mister! *flick*

They can also wreck an army of undead with a single ability, use spontaneous healing IE you never have to prepare healing spells, and 2 Domains to add even more spells to their spell list.

[awdougherty]

In my time with NWN, I've found that a thief tends to dish out way more melee damage than just about everyone else. Am I doing something wrong or have others noticed as well?

Of course it requires the enemy to be distracted by someone else. But my friend's thief, with a keen, +5 double bladed sword (including improved critical in that weapon) routinely backstabs for 40 points and critical hits for 80 or 90. Meanwhile my cleric Fighter deals out 15-25.

[Raife]

Rogues have major problems with multiple enemies and heavy hitters. If they have someone to tank for them, they're golden.

That's also a pretty powergamey sword.

[caesarbear]

I've seen powermongered fighters deal in the 100-120 range for damage, not counting devestating crits.

[Reeko]

One Word: Fireballs

That sounds painful. Maybe you should see a doctor.

[DeepT]

That reminds me, I forgot to agree that crates / barrels full of treasure are absolutely retarded.

It has become so standard no one even questions it anymore (as far as game makers).

Why are the beggars in fantasy games? All they need to do is grab a few things from the nearest barrel, sell it, and they are rich.

[Greatatlantic]

I'm definitely looking at NWN2 to surpass the original, in ways that matter to me anyways. I'm worried as heck that Obsidian got in over there head and Atari will force them to release the game while it still needs work. But, considering that the most important part of any RPG for me is the campaign, it simply has to be better then the NWN OC. The fact you control multiple characters alone goes a long way to ensure this. Chris Avellone doing dialogue doesn't hurt things either.

[Raife]

Why are the beggars in fantasy games? All they need to do is grab a few things from the nearest barrel, sell it, and they are rich.

That's a lot of work. Why do that when adventurers will come to you? Tell them to fetch you a meal and a bottle of wine and they'll do it and even pay for it. Tell them to find a belt you lost ten years ago, they'll get right on it.

Adventurers are stupid.

[unbongwah]

That reminds me, I forgot to agree that crates / barrels full of treasure are absolutely retarded.
It has become so standard no one even questions it anymore (as far as game makers).
There is a moment early in last year's Bard's Tale, in which you kill a wolf and out pops some treasure. The Narrator questions why on Earth this happens, and the Bard says something along the lines of, "This is nothing, mate - one time an entire chest popped out of a spider I killed."

It was an amusing little acknowledgement of the absurdity of that convention. OTOH, the game slavishly adhered to that convention, so I'm not sure how much credit to give them for pointing out how silly of a game mechanic it is...


Why are the beggars in fantasy games? All they need to do is grab a few things from the nearest barrel, sell it, and they are rich.
In case you haven't noticed, beggars are completely incapable of moving and are thus completely dependent on the kindness of passing strangers. [Some townspeople can walk around, but evidently they're a bunch of assholes who never heard of "charity."]

Though it does make me wonder why they don't beg for food: if you can't move, how do you spend your money? Maybe they order Chinese delivery all the time or something...

[Derek French]

I want our next game to have one crate/barrel in the second room. And it detonates the first time it is touched.

[Wolff]

Just thought I'd throw 2 cents in. I enjoy the D&D experience but find many of the CRPG are just way to easy to break. Certain talents and builds far outshine anything else out there. In PnP wierdo builds have a place, i've found mostly in NWN if you are not max/min-ing you are pretty much just artificially prolonging the experience. As far as builds go I find cleric to be all right but pretty boring much more fun to be some crazy duel wielder great cleaving your way through hordes of enemies or dropping crazy aoe spells nonstop with a spell penetration sorceror. Magic using classes are inherently broken in D&D crpg there is no decision to cast or save since resting if always relatively easy. In PnP cast or save really makes magic classes interesting to play.

/ramble

W

[Shadari]

I want our next game to have one crate/barrel in the second room. And it detonates the first time it is touched.
Ooh, trapped treasure chests... nice idea. ;)

[marxeil]

Just thought I'd throw 2 cents in. I enjoy the D&D experience but find many of the CRPG are just way to easy to break. Certain talents and builds far outshine anything else out there. In PnP wierdo builds have a place, i've found mostly in NWN if you are not max/min-ing you are pretty much just artificially prolonging the experience. As far as builds go I find cleric to be all right but pretty boring much more fun to be some crazy duel wielder great cleaving your way through hordes of enemies or dropping crazy aoe spells nonstop with a spell penetration sorceror. Magic using classes are inherently broken in D&D crpg there is no decision to cast or save since resting if always relatively easy. In PnP cast or save really makes magic classes interesting to play.

/ramble

W
Whenever I play a crpg I always play for some time with a mage, cleric, thief or something and then start over with a dual wielding warrior. I just love being a heavily armored double death dealing machine. Spells are for pussies.

[DeepT]

Wolff:

That is *hardly* the problem of mages in CRPGs vs PnP RPGS. In PnP you can be far more creative, you have a lot more spells and can even make interesting ones.

All mages do is nuke and maybe have a few status effects in CRPGs. Simple stuff like making a wall of stone, spider climbing up a wall, melting a door, using illusions to trick monsters or merchants, and a myriad of other things are all missing.

Mostly all the cool stuff PnP mages do are not in any CRPG. As much as I love WoW, they are the epitome of the most generic, uncreative mage class ever made.

Mages should be just as much about utility as they are about nuking.

[roguefrog]

Also Protection spells, Buffs, and Summons, but yeah, it's all mostly combat focused.


melting a door

Maybe use a Knock spell instead of Flaming Hands? But I yeah, I agree. More utility spells would kickass. Leomund's Secret Chest (think safety deposit box, only stored in the astral plane), Otto's Irresistable Dance (DANCE OGRE DANCE!) or maybe being able to place a Geas on fools.

[Shadari]

My mage in WoW used engineering explosives (forget the type offhand) to get past doors. And to be fair, they do have some utility spells, like gate and water/food summoning.

[Shadari]

maybe being able to place a Geas on fools.
Mind control sorta kinda fits the bill. But a spell that would force your target to complete some quest within a certain amount of time or else they suffer some form of a penalty would be neat. It would be hard to balance I imagine.

[eliandi]

Just thought I'd throw 2 cents in. I enjoy the D&D experience but find many of the CRPG are just way to easy to break. Certain talents and builds far outshine anything else out there. In PnP wierdo builds have a place, i've found mostly in NWN if you are not max/min-ing you are pretty much just artificially prolonging the experience. As far as builds go I find cleric to be all right but pretty boring much more fun to be some crazy duel wielder great cleaving your way through hordes of enemies or dropping crazy aoe spells nonstop with a spell penetration sorceror. Magic using classes are inherently broken in D&D crpg there is no decision to cast or save since resting if always relatively easy. In PnP cast or save really makes magic classes interesting to play.

Alot of the things you mention is why I cannot stand single player cRPGs/MMORPGs, but absolutely love DMed NWN.

[DeepT]

What I mean is that in PnP you can interact more with the world then just cast fireballs at stuff.

For example, a cave full of goblins who are plaguing the town. In a MMOG or CRPG you have to go in and fight them all. In PnP you could collapse the cave enterance with an earthquake spell, stone shape the cave closed, send a spectral terror in to chase them out into some kind of magical trap you have made.

If a monster is attacking you, you can fly away via a fly spell or polymorph. To get across a pit or some obsitcal, you could use dimension door or a point to point teleport, unlike MMOGs that seem to insist that teleport is to fixed points. They do not even let you memorize your own fixed points.

My point is that mages have been distilled down to nothing but nukers with a few, very minor tricks. They are nothing like what a PnP mages are.

The problem isn't that mages can rest every 5 minutes, it is that they are forced to do only a few kinds of things, none of which are attributes of a highly intellegent PC.

[unbongwah]

For example, a cave full of goblins who are plaguing the town. In a MMOG or CRPG you have to go in and fight them all. In PnP you could collapse the cave enterance with an earthquake spell, stone shape the cave closed, send a spectral terror in to chase them out into some kind of magical trap you have made.
Well, that's pretty much the major shortcoming of any game: you can't do anything which hasn't been hardcoded into the game in some fashion. So-called "emergent" games increase your options, but they're still finite. GMs in PnP RPGs can always wing it using their imaginations.

[caesarbear]

The CRPG will never replace a DM. But I unless I'm playing DMed NWN, I don't expect that level of freedom in a computer game. What you can do is create an adventure that is specifically tailored for a character that is a wizard, and then try to add as many wizard options as feasible.

[roguefrog]

Some CRPGs do have multiple ways to solve a situation. It's what separates a truly kickass CRPG from the mediocre: when designers implement as much outlets for your "character" to plug into as humanly possible. The problem here is designers have to implement this "extra" stuff. When I say extra I mean creating, lets say five solutions to every quest in the game (which may be skill/class/spell/whatever sensitive) -- when the average user who only plays through the game once will only see "one" of those "five" solutions. Likely reasons against: wasted effort, too hard, time constraints, milestone bonus plz!


For example, a cave full of goblins who are plaguing the town. In a MMOG or CRPG you have to go in and fight them all. In PnP you could collapse the cave entrance

Interestingly enough the "collapse the cave entrance" thing was done in Fallout with the Radscopian Den as an alternative to killing them all.

[Alan Au]

Interestingly enough the "collapse the cave entrance" thing was done in Fallout with the Radscopian Den as an alternative to killing them all.Of course, you could also do the powergamer thing and collapse the cave entrance after also killing all of the radscorpions for maximum XP.

- Alan

[DeepT]

Well, that's pretty much the major shortcoming of any game: you can't do anything which hasn't been hardcoded into the game in some fashion. So-called "emergent" games increase your options, but they're still finite. GMs in PnP RPGs can always wing it using their imaginations.


Yes, doing anything would be beyond a CRPG, but being a mage doesn't mean all you do is shoot fireballs and teleport to a few known locations. They could add other things easily such as:

Large AoE Snares or Roots: Mud, Vines, Webs, Grease, Quicksand, etc...

Wall spells: Wall of Fire, Stone, Force, Etc... These can be used to help regulate and channel combat.

Pit type spells: Similar to wall spells except ranged attacks work across them, and/or they can act as a 'root' for anything in the pits.

Summons: Not just 'a pet' but how about a small army? Elementals, monsters, undead in a large quantity. How about summoned buildings or materials? Leomuds Study Shelter anyone?

Illusions: These are almost totally missing from all CRPGs with the exception of things like invisbility. Other spell effects and weather effects are good canidates. How about fog?

Persistant AoE effects: You know those cool instant effects, why can't they stick around for a while? These are totally missing.


There is much that can be done in CRPGs that simply isn't done.

[roguefrog]

Large AoE Snares

Web, Grease, Vines, etc are avalible in most D&D cRPGs. I don't get much use out of them though.


Summons: Not just 'a pet' but how about a small army?

Summons usually come in a quantity of one for balance reasons except in Baldur's Gate where summons spawned up to five, and it was overpowered.


Wall spells

Ultima Online had this to great effect. (specifically in PKing, but also PvE) Can't think of any others. (other than previous Ultimas) So yeah!


How about fog?

There is Darkness (almost the same result, and rogues get 100% sneak attack in the AOE!)

[awdougherty]

Been working my way towards the end of the second official expansion and while I feel like it's starting to just drag out, I do give them a lot of credit for all of the different things they've packed into this game. Loaded the latest patch and all of a sudden my cloak was visible.

I initially voted for NWN2 on this poll, but if I end up being wrong, the original NWN seems extremely capable of bringing a D&D experience to the computer, especially with the DM client. Despite its drawbacks, NWN still manages to impress me 11 years after its release.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Despite its drawbacks, NWN still manages to impress me 11 years after its release.

11 years?

Troy

[awdougherty]

Just a stupid joke, I and others have said that NWN has been out for 5 years when it's actually 4.

[Becoming]

I came across this while browsing earlier:

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Articles.Detail&id=48

I don't know if it's old news or not, but it sounds like there will be plenty of support for modding and a DM client released shortly after the game hits the shelves.

I personally never got too far in NWN (for some reason it just never clicked with me like the campaign in Baldurs Gate 2). I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised by this though. :)

[unbongwah]

I personally never got too far in NWN (for some reason it just never clicked with me like the campaign in Baldurs Gate 2).
As everyone has said ad nauseum, the original NWN campaign is "not very good." You're better off checking out the expansions or the user-made mods at NW Vault (http://nwvault.ign.com).

[Matt Perkins]

One of the problems NWN had was that it took a party based system and made you play a partial party.

And it took a broken system and made you play a partial party in that system. PnP D20 3.5 (and 3.0) is broken at the higher levels in terms of magic users vs. non magic users. Clerics are a good example, but mages too. They both get REALLY powerful spells and with the right thought put into them, they are nigh unstoppable at higher levels.

NWN ran into both of those problems (the first with the original and first expansion and the second with the second expansion. Though they did much better than they did with Baldur's Gate high level magic...ugh.)

[Matt Perkins]

Oh, and wish I psyonics would make it in a DnD game already. :D

[unbongwah]

One of the problems NWN had was that it took a party based system and made you play a partial party.
It always seemed pretty clear to me that Bioware was more interested in the multiplayer aspects of NWN than its single-player. Thus, the game was intentionally designed around the "single player character with optional henchman" mechanic, with other people filling out the party (not unlike Diablo).

[roguefrog]

"single player character with optional henchman" mechanic, with other people filling out the party (not unlike Diablo).

I know what your trying to say, but the comparison of a D&D game to Diablo is never a good sign. I like both types of games, but for opposing reasons (Diablo for the mindless hack'n'slash and power/metagaming and D&D for story/character/dialogue/world RP stuff and more tactical "party" combat) NWN's OC was like some scary D&D Diablo freakshow with lots of crates.

[Kunikos]

Oh, and wish I psyonics would make it in a DnD game already. :D

I seem to remember a few Dark Sun games being made. I'm not sure why they still represent Mind Flayer (Illithid) and Gythanki/Githzerai abilities as magic or innate abilities, given that the psionics system is a widely available rulebase for both AD&D and D&D 3+E. I guess it just doesn't have a whole lot of fans.

[Kirian]

Regardless of the quality of Neverwinter Nights 2, they have the best Special Edition that has ever been created.
http://tinyurl.com/l6kln

Take a peek at all the additional bits. My word.

[AndrewM]

Regardless of the quality of Neverwinter Nights 2, they have the best Special Edition that has ever been created.

I think the US version doesn't have all of that, or at least lacks NWN1:

http://www.ebgames.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=646631

[Chris Nahr]

Forsooth, they include an A3 Clothe Mappe! And a figurine, and a pewter ring, and an art book, and an art & music DVD, and NWN1 plus both expansions. Who cares about the game when the extras are that good? Preordered!

Although it sucks that it's a Play.com exclusive. At that price I'll have to pay VAT and that means the package will get held up for three weeks at the lazy customs office. :(

[Matt Perkins]

Damn, that is a really nice sounding SE of NWN2. I'll have to buy it.

[Matt Perkins]

The special edition is EU only?

[Kunikos]

I noticed that Gamestop/EB is carrying only the Chaotic Evil box cover, and the Play.com one is Lawful Good.

I also laughed at the "both the expansion packs"... both? There are three or four aren't there? Hence the Gold, Platinum, and Diamond versions of the NWN box.

[Matt Perkins]

Just two expansions for the original game, but numerous repackaging and additional mods they released on their website were included in those boxes, I believe.

[Chris Nahr]

There were only two NWN expansions. One of the NWN SEs had only the first expansion, another both, and the biggest had some user-created mods thrown in for good measure.

[Kirian]

One of the special editions is exclusive to play.com.
Play.com will only ship here: http://www.play.com/HOME/HOME/6-/AboutUs.html?page=del

So, assuming you want the Lawful Good version, with NWN1 and other bits, you want play.com

EB lists the rings as 'antique silver', which makes them over fifty [or one hundred] years old. Play lists the ring as pewter. Also, the Lawful Good version has a figurine....
Yes, a figurine...
The version I found is also one or two pounds more expensive.

[Kunikos]

That's ass! No shipping to the US? WTF :(

[unbongwah]

I also laughed at the "both the expansion packs"... both? There are three or four aren't there? Hence the Gold, Platinum, and Diamond versions of the NWN box.
There were two official expansions - Shadows over Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark - plus several Premium mods for sale online. NWN Gold contained the original game + SoU; NWN Platinum was NWN + SoU + HotU; NWN Diamond was NWN + SoU + HotU + the first three Premium mods.

[roguefrog]

Still waiting for the Mithril and Adamantium versions.

[Derek French]

Yeah, next on our list (in addition to roguefrog's) were:

Neverwinter Nights: Titanium Edition
Neverwinter Nights: Depleted Uranium Edition
Neverwinter Nights: Quantum Singularity Edition

[Brad Wardell]

What I wouldn't give for a Baldur's Gate 3. But in the meantime, NWN 2 is my big RPG hope for the Fall.

[Steel_Wind]

What I wouldn't give for a Baldur's Gate 3. But in the meantime, NWN 2 is my big RPG hope for the Fall.

What would the BG3 you want to see be like?

a) NWN1
b) KotOR
c) NWN2
d) Oblivion

??

[roguefrog]

^ToEE

[FIDGAF]

I'm hoping that not having a DM doesn't nerf it too badly.
Would I be a nerd if I admitted that I still have the BGII maps hanging up?
One of the novelties was having the ability to DM NWN.

[ydejin]

^ToEE

I'm with roguefrog. I would love to see Bioware's story and character writing abilities applied to a game which uses the ToEE engine for combat.

[unbongwah]

What would the BG3 you want to see be like?
e) BG2, only prettier.

[Dave Markell]

e) BG2, only prettier.

Winner

[Becoming]

e) BG2, only prettier.

Yes please!

[Kunikos]

Sent a message to both GoGamer, which is known to stock the UK or English International editions of games, and to Amazon.co.uk to see what comes in their NWN2 Limited Edition / Deluxe Editions and if it's the same as what's in the Play.com version. Both ship to the US, and the price on GoGamer is the same as the domestic price for the Collector's Edition.

[caesarbear]

e) BG2, only prettier.
Yay, more of the same! Huzza!

[Gendal]

^ToEE

Fix the bugs, stupid performance issues, polish up the interface and you have the ultimate D&D implementation. It just lacked a plot/story or anything other than the combat simulator.

Looking forward to NWN2, if only because they give you some measure of control over your npcs. I want full on BG2/1 control but at least they are trying with NWN2.

[roguefrog]

Clarification:

ToEE for being a Isometric, Turn Based, Party Based D&D game.

Not for being buggy(not a feature) or a dungeon crawler module.

[unbongwah]

Yay, more of the same! Huzza!
Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but "scintillating originality" is not one of the qualities I look to Bioware for...

[olaf]

What would the BG3 you want to see be like?

a) NWN1
b) KotOR
c) NWN2
d) Oblivion

??
BG2, ideally. But of those games listed? KOTOR I guess. But, I havent played NWN2.

TToEE had tremendous combat and if 'BG3' had that combat engine, but everything ala BG2, it would be my wetdream CRPG.

[caesarbear]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but "scintillating originality" is not one of the qualities I look to Bioware for...
Honestly I wouldn't expect BG3 to come from BioWare.

[Steel_Wind]

Of the 4 offered options, I think NWN2 was most clearly inspired / closest to BG2. It features an overland map and party control as part of its interface design.

I do think that an Infinity Engine 2d sprite game is not even remotely realistic at this stage; accordingly, the option of NWN2 as a "model to follow" was offered.

Guess we'll see what time brings. :D

[Kunikos]

Honestly I wouldn't expect BG3 to come from BioWare.

Didn't Bioware say that Atari held the IP for it and they were not currently doing it and it was up to Atari to decide who was going to develop the game? I have to assume that they are either shopping it around or have already quietly started it someplace.

[Derek French]

I honestly don't know who has the BG IP. I thought it was still with Interplay, but I don't know if it has moved off from there.

[caesarbear]

BG is probably the only reason why Interplay still exists. They are deeply in debt but the rights to BG might be enough to pay off their creditors. The lawyers are waiting for someone crazy enough to pony up the millions for the rights to make BG3.

[Becoming]

BG is probably the only reason why Interplay still exists. They are deeply in debt but the rights to BG might be enough to pay off their creditors. The lawyers are waiting for someone crazy enough to pony up the millions for the rights to make BG3.

*frantically searches couch cushions for loose change*

[Dhruin]

I don't think Interplay has any BG rights. They'd also be contingent on D&D rights, which they certainly don't have.

Back in August 2004, the PC Gamer that "revealed" NWN2 also had a small bit on BG3, with Atari saying they were looking to develop the title. An Atari insider later told me there was no BG3 in development and, of course, nothing has really been heard since.

I would say NWN2 now occupies the same territory, and I don't really see Atari developing two different "hardcore" D&D PC RPG franchises.

[Abbaon]

polish up the interface
Done. (http://img.interia.pl/gry/nimg/gry450762.jpg)

[Gendal]

Done. (http://img.interia.pl/gry/nimg/gry450762.jpg)

Translation to a different language doesn't count as polish, that and it's just the character selection screen? It's been awhile since I have played ToEE, really all I remember is that it had quite a few interface shortcomings with inventory and character management. Has some mod group managed to change some of that?

[Chris Nahr]

Um, you missed the joke. That translation is Polish.

[Gendal]

Um, you missed the joke. That translation is Polish.

yep, that went right over my head.