Military Strategy: Surgical Strikes versus Genocide and Occupation [Archive]

DrDel

07-22-2006, 01:11 PM

I can't help but notice that the Israeli's seem to be doing a lot more than "defending themselves" as George Dubbleyah Bush would have us believe.

There are surgical strikes against directed Hezbollah infrastructure and sympathizers and then there is the mass destruction of Lebanese citizens.

Bombing entire villages and cities, restricting movement of humanatarian aid organizations, killing large Lebanese families to the point to where there are no remaining family members showing up to their funerals isn't targetting Hezbollah targets!

There is collateral damage and then there is mass murder.

What the Israeli's are doing is getting f'n ridiculous.

Why haven't more countries spoken out about this???

DrDel

07-22-2006, 01:13 PM

Shiroko

07-22-2006, 01:38 PM

There are surgical strikes against directed Hezbollah infrastructure and sympathizers and then there is the mass destruction of Lebanese citizens.

Bombing entire villages and cities, restricting movement of humanatarian aid organizations, killing large Lebanese families to the point to where there are no remaining family members showing up to their funerals isn't targetting Hezbollah targets!

There is collateral damage and then there is mass murder.

What the Israeli's are doing is getting f'n ridiculous.

Why haven't more countries spoken out about this???

Because that's not the truth.
There's not "bombing entire villages".
There's no "restircting movement of humanatarian aid" on purpose.
And I really don't think "killing large Lebanese families to the point to where there are no remaining family members showing up to their funerals" as much as it is some single case you heard about (And I do not know unfortunately).

Luckily countries respond on facts.

Shiroko

07-22-2006, 01:40 PM

By the way, I have played numerous RTS's since the days of the original Warcraft -- so I have as much military experience as a 4 Star General -- and I don't ever recall the mass damage to civilians I see in Lebanon during my years of RTSing.

I don't recall a RTS where you get penalty score for destroying enemy installations close to civilians.
It doesn't sound "fun".

DrDel

07-22-2006, 01:58 PM

Because that's not the truth.
There's not "bombing entire villages".
There's no "restircting movement of humanatarian aid" on purpose.
And I really don't think "killing large Lebanese families to the point to where there are no remaining family members showing up to their funerals" as much as it is some single case you heard about (And I do not know unfortunately).

Luckily countries respond on facts.

Shiroko,

My sources are probably as good as yours -- American, UK and Canadian news agencies (BBC, CNN, NYT, ABC News, CBC, etc). I understand that news agencies have their biases and I rarely trust the news but in this case I think I have to.

I see on the news and read in the paper the following:

1. Humanatarian organizations that say the Israeli's are verbally telling them they are welcome to come in but when the humanatarian agencies show up the Israeli Army prevents them from moving in to offer aid. So the Humanatarian agencies are sitting on their hands. MERCY Aid (I think) is the only humanatarian aid organization name that I recall, but there are others who are saying the same thing.

2. Multiple mass grave burials of 50+ peeps per grave! That is a little more than collateral damage.

3. There are news features that have reporters touring through towns and villages that have been bombed to smithereans!! There are scenes in Beirut that look like the World Trade Center during 9/11 but rather than being 2-3 city blocks the destruction goes on for miles!

How is this not the truth? How are these not facts? Please explain this to me.

Are all of these images/stories from these different news agencies fake??

Is there a large conspiracy going on here?

Perhaps the Iraqi Propaganda Minister has found a new job in Lebanon??

arctangent

07-22-2006, 02:01 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060722/wl_uk_afp/mideastconflictlebanonisraelbritainus_060722160256

Britain's junior foreign minister Kim Howells, visiting Beirut, Saturday questioned Israel's military tactics and slammed its killing of "so many children and so many people".

"These are not surgical strikes," he said of the air and artillery bombardments since July 12 that have killed more than 300 civilians in Lebanon.

"If they are chasing Hezbollah, then go for Hezbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation," he told a media conference after meeting Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora.

Howells's boss, Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett, echoed those concerns in an interview with the Financial Times and said a ground invasion that Israel appeared to be preparing would create "a very dangerous situation".

"A miscalculation, a mistake, could have dramatic effects, and that I find deeply alarming," she said. "We have been urging caution and restraint on Israel from the beginning and we continue to do so with ever greater concern as time goes on."

The criticism marked a shift in Britain's stance on the conflict.

Every civilized country in the world, with the exception of the US, has spoken out.

Your government is wrong to continue this, Shiroko, just as my government is wrong to support yours in continuing to kill civilians and destroy civilian infrastructure. TIme to stop killing and bombing and start talking.

Qenan

07-22-2006, 02:03 PM

Serious question: What do you think the talking will achieve?

Lunch of Kong

07-22-2006, 02:11 PM

Flippant answer: It will pad our post counts.

...and your serious question still stands.

DrDel

07-22-2006, 02:19 PM

Serious question: What do you think the talking will achieve?

Serious answer: A lot.

A cease fire will allow humanatarian aid to access otherwise obstructed and dangerous areas.

A cease fire will also prevent the death toll from increasing.

A cease fire will allow time for tourists and natives to leave the hot and cold zones.

A cease fire will allow the global diplomatic engine to have more time for planning and implementation strategies to address the imminent issues including Israeli's impending PR disaster problems.

But I think I see where you are going. Hezbollah and the Israelis are like oil and water.. a cease fire and talks are only delaying the inevitable.

At least a cease fire will allow for humanatarian aid to help the innocent Lebanese bystanders.

Shiroko

07-22-2006, 02:43 PM

1. How are they blocking them exactly? I understand that the road system is effectively destroyed which seriously toughens the thing. But officially blocking?

2. They have enough deaths for 6 of these graves until now, there's no reason for mass graves. Where did you see that BTW?

3. Beirut's Dahia neighborhood has taken a serious beating, it was only after warning to leave it and in order to locate Hizbullah's command bunker which IDF believe is located below the buildings bombed.

Look this method of fighting sucks, but there's no other way for the IDF to fight Hizbullah. And staying on the border waiting to be attacked is a worse alternative...
IDF's intelligance points that almost 100 hizbullah men were killed, out of 350 deaths (The number that was correct in the time of IDF's statement). That very far from making even me happy. But it does point the attacks are not against lebanese as a purpose.

Anyhow this seems a bit exgagerated to me, because mass graves or an official block to humamintarian aid would make news easily here too.
I'll start reading more Haaretz I guess...

Brian Rucker

07-22-2006, 02:57 PM

There's no official block to humanitarian aid that I'm aware of. However all the roads and bridges north, but one, have been destroyed and civilian, even Lebanese Red Cross, vehicles have come under attack. The International Red Cross is making no bones about the fact there's a massive humanitarian crisis about to begin and they do confirm the story about the local Red Cross vehicle getting attacked.

I've seen a couple different, and very bewildered reporters, pointing out that the people evacuating the south are doing just what the Israeli military told them to do but the Israelis are making the actual doing of it all but impossible.

Last report was 700,000 displaced people so far.

I haven't heard any independant confirmation of how many of the Lebanese dead are actually Hizbollah but that overall number does seem to be what I remember hearing last night. Unsure what the totals are looking like right now.

Incendiary Lemon

07-22-2006, 03:41 PM

Last report was 700,000 displaced people so far.

In a country of 3.8 million thats pretty staggering. Its going to be hell for a while, refugee camps and UN aid shipments.

DrDel

07-22-2006, 06:33 PM

Shiroko,

take a look at these pics.. anti-Israeli pictures:

NSFW!! Not for the weak stomached. Injured/killed babies and children!!!! You have been warned.

http://www.downtownbeirut.com/Genocide/israel-genocide-in-lebanon.htm

This is the genocide I was talking about.

F'n crazy.

What a waste of life!

Lum

07-22-2006, 06:52 PM

arctangent

07-22-2006, 07:09 PM

Wow. What horrible carnage. Maybe Hezbollah should give those soldiers back and withdraw from Southern Lebanon, since they're unable to defeat Israel in battle.

Oh - sorry, we're in HAPPY LAND where nations act on who can come up with the most gory pathos for the news, not on things like national interest and bilateral negotiations.

Right. Let's just ignore the dead babies, because they probably deserved to die. After all, they might have grown up to be terrorists or something.

Lum

07-22-2006, 07:14 PM

Right. Let's just ignore the dead babies, because they probably deserved to die. After all, they might have grown up to be terrorists or something.

Let's just ignore the dead babies on the side we don't like!

There's lots of dead babies in Chechnya, by the way. Thousands of them. Oddly, I don't see many demands for us to DO SOMETHING NOW there. I guess they're not as photogenically dead.

Jason McCullough

07-22-2006, 08:18 PM

That's because there's literally nothing we can do about Checnya that has a positive foriegn policy ROI. International peacekeeping? Not fucking likely. Arm the insurgents? Might as well just declare war on Russia. Surprise, not everything is the same!

Lum

07-22-2006, 09:02 PM

So we only care about dead babies if we think it has a good ROI.

See... you can't have it both ways. Either war is BAD BAD BAD and anyone who dares to actually use their military power should be SPANKED FIERCELY, or it's a bit more complex than that and throwing up killshots of dead infants serves little purpose beside making people cheering for the other side (Arab or Israeli, depending on the nationality of the pornographically displayed infant) feel better about themselves.

Jason McCullough

07-22-2006, 10:39 PM

Russia doesn't give a damn what we think diplomaticly; so short of attempting to get the entire world to isolate them, there's nothing we can do. The ROI comment was an attempt to more formally phrase "there's no military scenario for Chechnya that does less harm than good."

I guess we all have to keep repeatedly saying this, but our objection to the current Isreali military actions isn't "civilians are dying!" It's that the level of civilian death and misery is inexcusable for the scope of the offense they're reacting to.

More importantly the current Israeli course of action is fucking retarded. It's making the region like them even less, they'll probably get bogged down in some stupid guerilla war, and they can't do very much to Hezbollah. Maybe Bush's stupidity is catching.

Brad Grenz

07-22-2006, 10:55 PM

This is the genocide I was talking about.

F'n crazy.

What a waste of life!

"That word, you keep using it, but I do not think it means what you think it means."

Unicorn McGriddle

07-23-2006, 12:01 AM

First rule of war: don't look at the pictures! Pictures lie. Flags tell the truth.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2353/kingjack8qu.gif

Shiroko

07-23-2006, 03:31 AM

http://www.downtownbeirut.com/Genocide/israel-genocide-in-lebanon.htm

Dead link...
I get to keep my apetite for now...

Anyhow if it's just pictures I see it as distorted, pictures can easily be distorted.
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelipoliceman.html
This is by far one of the more extreme cases, proving that a picture doesn't tell a story other than the one you make up in your mind.

-Shiroko

Lizard_King

07-23-2006, 03:37 AM

Anyhow if it's just pictures I see it as distorted, pictures can easily be distorted.
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelipoliceman.html
This is by far one of the more extreme cases, proving that a picture doesn't tell a story other than the one you make up in your mind.
Your link has died.

Shiroko

07-23-2006, 03:59 AM

Your link has died.

Works for me, but here is the same subject from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuvia_Grossman

Lunch of Kong

07-23-2006, 04:50 AM

Dead link...
I get to keep my apetite for now...

It's not a dead link. Your Israeli IP may be blocked from accessing it.

But, I doubt they're anything you haven't seen before. Children ripped into half with their insides oozing out. Dusty corpses with gaping eye holes. Burned corpses charred like the bark of a tree.

You know, the kind of thing that you see outside your window after a Palestinian suicide bomber attack.

VegasRobb

07-23-2006, 05:38 AM

Let's just ignore the dead babies on the side we don't like!

There's lots of dead babies in Chechnya, by the way. Thousands of them. Oddly, I don't see many demands for us to DO SOMETHING NOW there. I guess they're not as photogenically dead.

Replace Chechnya with Sudan and the point is the same. Lots of meetings, lots of committees and panels created. Very little action.

arctangent

07-23-2006, 06:49 AM

Gee, all those dead babies all over the place. You'd think war and hate and greed were bad things.

Nah. That has nothing to with us. They aren't our babies.

Tim Partlett

07-23-2006, 07:24 AM

There's no official block to humanitarian aid that I'm aware of.

Yeah, they've been blockading the ports. They finally allowed foreign aid to be delivered today. Now they have to negotiate the bombed out roads that are so deadly that taxi drivers are charging $500 to take the risky route from the South to Beirut.

"Amid growing concerns about the hundreds of thousands of civilians displaced by the bombing, Israel has eased some restrictions on Lebanon's blockaded ports to allow aid into the country." - BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5207152.stm)

Brian Rucker

07-23-2006, 07:36 AM

There was aid coming in overland and some facilities already in place. The blockade only effected ports but, admittedly, with the roads and bridges out thats going to be the only realistic way to get enough supplies in.

At any rate, this mess may be winding down. The U.S. is willing to go for an international peacekeeping force and Israel seems to have reduced their goals to merely getting their soldiers back and getting Hezbollah to stop firing rockets (as opposed to "eliminating" them - which was a very unrealistic goal). We'll see.

If you can find an army acceptable to Lebanon and Israel, Hezbollah's opinion I could care less about, that's willing to walk into this mess then that's the best solution.

bago

07-23-2006, 08:31 AM

Lizard_King

07-23-2006, 08:48 AM

Works for me, but here is the same subject from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuvia_Grossman
That is a great story.

If you can find an army acceptable to Lebanon and Israel, Hezbollah's opinion I could care less about, that's willing to walk into this mess then that's the best solution.
You don't think disarming Hezbollah and replacing their presence in the south with a Lebanese force is necessary to prevent this from happening again?

Unicorn McGriddle

07-23-2006, 03:43 PM

Personally, I think there should be open quasi-MAD tactics put into place.

No response for the first 19 rockets.

But if you launch #20, a city will be anihillated.

The onus is put entirely upon aggression, and it's a very clear easy to broadcast message.

Dreamworld I know, but so logical.

Because if Hezbollah launches 20 rockets, it's a safe bet that they speak for the city the Israelis destroy? Maybe you should stick to posts about strippers.

Lunch of Kong

07-23-2006, 05:18 PM

Would an appropriate and measured Israeli response been capturing a dozen hizbollah soldiers and doing a prisoner exchange for the 2 israelis?

arctangent

07-23-2006, 06:44 PM

Would an appropriate and measured Israeli response been capturing a dozen hizbollah soldiers and doing a prisoner exchange for the 2 israelis?

They already have prisoners, from the last war, the ones Hizbullah was trying to trade the two Israeli soldiers for.

Peculiar that Israel should bomb the crap out of Lebanon instead of trading captives like they have before. Makes me wonder if they were planning to invade Lebanon all along.

forgeforsaken

07-23-2006, 07:28 PM

Well they've had the plan in place that they are using for over a year at least
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MNG2QK396D1.DTL&hw=kalman&sn=001&sc=1000

Shiroko

07-24-2006, 04:35 AM

Well they've had the plan in place that they are using for over a year at least
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MNG2QK396D1.DTL&hw=kalman&sn=001&sc=1000

Not very impressive, every decent country has plans for whatever scenario.

Brendan

07-24-2006, 07:39 AM

http://iafrica.com/news/worldnews/757948.htm

I'm sorry, this is just not right.

You guys learned a lot during world war 2 didn't you, Shiroko?

(Edit, the above sentence is pretty harsh. I should avoid this sort of invective. Hopefully this is just the usual FUD because if it is not...)

Shiroko

07-24-2006, 08:06 AM

I'm checking it now, trying to figure who's the IDF official who quoted Dan Halutz...
Seems like a stupid order from any direction you look at it. And doesn't seem like a good policy. I'm checking.

MikeSofaer

07-24-2006, 08:11 AM

That's pretty despicable, I hope it's not true.

Flowers

07-24-2006, 08:20 AM

That's pretty despicable, I hope it's not true.
Well no shit, Dick Tracy.

Shiroko

07-24-2006, 08:25 AM

It got to the headlines on a big news site now, a letter was sent to the minister of defense (Amir Peretz) about it.
So we'll see exactly what happened, and I hope it weren't his words. (An anonymous IAF official said the things, and someimtes these so called officials are nothing more than pissed off generals that their plans weren't chosen...)