Hero?

[Don Quixote]

Has anyone else seen this? It's the new Jet-Li flick that rumor has it is going to get released stateside sometime this spring/summer. We got an import copy last night and stayed up late watching it with feelings of shock and awe.

The production values in this are amazing- beautifully shot, amazing costumes, great fight choreography (if you're into the whole wuxia/wire-fu thing), brilliant special effects. The acting is similarly superb- they pulled all the heavy hitters of chinese cinema in for this one- Jet Li, Donnie Yen, Maggie Cheung, Tony Leung, newcomer (from CTHD) Ziyi Zhang, all directed by Yimou Zhang of Shanghai Triad and Raise the Red Lantern fame. The pacing of the story is a bit uneven, but this is more than made up for in the inventiveness of the plotline- kind of like the old Kurosawa flick Rashomon, you see the same/similar events unfold multiple times through different eyes/points of view.

Why, oh why is Jet Li wasting his time doing crap like Romeo Must Die and Cradle 2 the Grave when there's stuff like this to be done? End review- easily as solid a movie as CTHD. If you liked that one, this is a must-see.

[Thierry Nguyen]

Beautiful movie to look at, despite it's fucked-up politics.

It also sucks to be Tony Leung in this flick.

[dannimal]

Is Tony Leung the "Bolo" Leung from Bloodsport and Double Imact (among others, those are the big US releases)? I love him.

[Matthew Gallant]

Bolo is a Yeung, not a Leung.

[Don Quixote]

Nah, Tony Leung is most recognizable to western audiences from Hard Boiled (the undercover cop), Chunking Express and In the Mood for Love, also playing opposite Maggie Cheung.

Politics? Before I go assuming what you meant, and spouting off some half-baked nonsense that has nothing to do with your point, maybe you should tell me what you meant by that.

[Thierry Nguyen]

A lot of critics in China feel that Hero is pro-Beijing, since Yimou has pissed off the government on a few occasions and has even been blacklisted at some point, it feels like a betrayal of sorts. Lots of venom was being spewed in columns towards him for making a movie that endorses the current government, and promotes servitude to a corrupt regime (am I allowd to use that word around here?). Similar editorials have been written about how Sky, Broken Sword, and Flying Snow symbolize Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Tibet, and they all bend their knees to Qin.

Of course, Yimou denies any sort of political metaphor behind his work, but a lot of people still see it.

There's also the fact that the Qin emperor is a complete monster. He's burned books on Confucianism and had many Confucian scholars executed. Sure, he built the Great Wall. He also punished "dissidents" by burying them alive within the Wall. I'd be more sympathetic to the "sacrifice for the greater good" message, if it was being turned towards someone who wasn't predisposed to burying monks within the Great Wall.

It's still a beautiful movie, and I view it a little more as myth rather than history, so I'm actually fairly detached about the whole "pro-Chinese government" deal. But I still think it's kinda fucked-up to make the Qin emperor so noble and heroic. But man, seeing Maggie Cheung deflect thousands of arrows with her sleeves makes it worth the viewing for me.

[Guido Jones]

Good movie, but some people from that live in HK that I know said it was pretty hated over there for it's percieved political message.

Not a bad movie all in all, but much shorter then CTHD.

[Thierry Nguyen]

Good movie, but some people from that live in HK that I know said it was pretty hated over there for it's percieved political message.

Yea, it's kinda weird that it's so successful all over Asia, in China specifically, yet so many critics hate its politics.

[Don Quixote]

Ah. I see about the politics now. I wasn't aware of the critical 'backlash' going on over there about it. It almost sounds to me like the whole J.R.R Tolkein/racist/WW2 alegory thing.

That said, I didn't really agree with the 'message' of it all, but such things usually don't have much of an effect on me anyway. I tend to take things at face value- as you said, I looked at it as more myth than historical truth. And what a beautiful myth it was... :)

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

Has anyone else seen this? It's the new Jet-Li flick that rumor has it is going to get released stateside sometime this spring/summer. We got an import copy last night and stayed up late watching it with feelings of shock and awe.

I've been trying to find this one. Is it out on DVD here yet?

[Thierry Nguyen]

]
Has anyone else seen this? It's the new Jet-Li flick that rumor has it is going to get released stateside sometime this spring/summer. We got an import copy last night and stayed up late watching it with feelings of shock and awe.

I've been trying to find this one. Is it out on DVD here yet?

If you absolutely must have the movie NOWNOWNOW, go here:

http://www.pokerindustries.com/poker.store?page=item&sku=HEROCH2002-DVD

It's the official PRC release. It's pretty barebones, as it only has the movie, subtitles, and a Making Of kinda deal, but it's a real DVD, as opposed to a VCD, so it has amazing picture quality (it's about as reference-quality as either Fellowship or Episode II) and it has Dolby 5.1 (for a coupla more bucks, there's a DTS version also, if you're a sound freak). This version is also playable on all-regions. For a movie this beautiful, I'd pony up the extra bucks for a real DVD, as opposed to a cheap, VHS-quality VCD.

I've heard that the Hong Kong version here (http://www.pokerindustries.com/poker.store?page=item&sku=HEROEDKO-DVD) is a lot better, extras-wise, and is more in-line with 2-disc DVD sets like here in the states, but it's Region-3 only. So only get this one if you hacked your DVD player or something.

I dunno what the eventual Miramax version will look like, but it'll probably be edited, like a lot of their other Chinese licenses.

EDIT: Added how the PRC's release has a Making Of featurette, but since I can't read the Chinamen writing, I never saw it or figured out how to get to it.

[Don Quixote]

Hmmm. I don't know. I rented mine from Scarecrow Video (www.scarecrowvideo.com) (quite possibly the best video store in the WORLD!!!) here in Seattle. Problem is, I can't find it listed anywhere on their site. I do see that they do online sales, though, so maybe you could give 'em a call.

/me shrugs

I'm pretty sure the copy we rented was all-region (though we have a worldwide player that converts PAL, so I'm not positive about this), but it did have english subtitles, 5:1 sound, and some sort of 'making of'-type documentaries. Not really positive about that last bit- all the menus were in chinese, so we didn't know whet the heck they were- we thought we were in the 'language/subtitle select' menu, and this other stuff starts popping up on the screen. :oops:

And yes, after watching I decided this movie was a must-buy. Gonna go back and pick up a copy in the next couple of weeks.

[Guido Jones]

I have a copy of the PRC DTS version, that I got through uhhh Sources :)

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

Thanks guys. Am gonna go hunt this bad boy down right about now

[Dirt]

Maggie Cheung still makes movies? I thought she retired to France.

[Dirt]

BTW, Taiwan has not bowed to China.

[Don Quixote]

Maggie Cheung still makes movies? I thought she retired to France.

Well, this seems to be her latest movie since In the Mood For Love in 2001, but she has two more coming out this year (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Cheung,%20Maggie).

When did you hear that? Oh and BTW- if you haven't seen In the Mood... yet, you must. Some of the most expressive acting I've seen in my life, and beautifully shot, too. That and Amorres Perros were easilly the best movies of 2001...

[Dirt]

Her husband is French.

Wow. Is she really pushing 40? It seems like yesterday that she became Miss Hong Kong.

[Dirt]

Oops. Bad memory... She was first runner-up.

[Albert Woo]

Her husband is French.

Wow. Is she really pushing 40? It seems like yesterday that she became Miss Hong Kong.

Well, she still looks kinda hot in "Hero", although she's no Elisha Cuthbert. :)

[Jaysun]

]
Has anyone else seen this? It's the new Jet-Li flick that rumor has it is going to get released stateside sometime this spring/summer. We got an import copy last night and stayed up late watching it with feelings of shock and awe.

I've been trying to find this one. Is it out on DVD here yet?

Actually, I've heard it's going to be in theatres in April here.

[Anonymous]

Maggie Cheung divorced her French husband last year. Yes, the film is beautiful but a lot of Chinese in Hong Kong and Taiwan really hate the "message" of this film. By the way, the Qin Emperor really was a tyrant according to the views of the majority of historians.

-lurker from Asia

[Anonymous]

The Emperor and the Assassin is a good movie too.

[khgoh]

The Emperor and the Assassin is a good movie too.


Yep.. and a Qin Emperor we're more familiar with.. :D

Some Camps argued over whether the Emperor's actions (eg. GreatWall,standardization of weights ,writing etc.) did more good than harm in the long run despite the expense and death tolls...

But contary to "Hero", eveyone agreed his motivation is mostly self-serving(i.e to consolidate the Empire and his Rule)

[Anonymous]

Hmm... looks like I'm the only one that thought this movie was only "ok". Sure the cinematography was excellently done (the crazy colours for the different stories), but the overall plot was weak in my opinion. The whole retelling after retelling was tiresome and trite (they overused that idea... it was great the first 3 times it was used), and the effects were so over-the-top (see the swarm of arrows). I also find "death within 10 paces" to be the stupidest move ever.

Now don't get me wrong, I like a good kung fu film like the next guy, and I guess Hero was just that. A good kung fu film, bad film.

Definitely not comparable to Crouching Tiger.

[Dirt]

I just don't get the fuss about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Yes, the kung fu scenes were a few notches above the usual kung fu movie. But the story was bland.

[VegasRobb]

Going to be getting this for Xmas. Only reason I know is because I had to help track it down. It's actually sold out in many many places.


I was finally able to track down a copy at www.martialartsmart.com

[Poops McGee]

I saw this one months ago, courtesy a chinese-american co-worker. When he told me who was in it, I wasn't very interested (Jet Li should be a great stuntman but not an actor), but after watching it, I thought it was a gorgeous movie that gave me an kung fu fix I didn't feel dirty about. Plus, the packaging was very nice(it was a 2 disk VCD set).

This is getting a stateside theatrical release and I'm not sure American audiences will be able to handle Jet Li in a movie WITHOUT a rap star and a bad hip-hop soundtrack.

[Guido Jones]

I don't know Lethal Weapon 4 went over pretty well

[VegasRobb]

Ditto for The One.

Too bad they ran out of money for special effects.

[Evil Jimi]

http://www.ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g005/maggiecheungandtonyleungchiu-wai.html

[Anders Hallin]

Maggie Cheung and Tony Leung Chiu-wai (www.ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g005/maggiecheungandtonyleungchiu-wai.html)
You win again, URL tag!

EDIT: original message edited to make my post seem pointless :(

[Evil Jimi]

Maggie Cheung and Tony Leung Chiu-wai (www.ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g005/maggiecheungandtonyleungchiu-wai.html)
You win again, URL tag!

EDIT: original message edited to make my post seem pointless :(

oops, sorry about that.


I edited (multiple times) b/c I couldn't get the damn thing to display the way you managed to get it to display. Howjoodothat? Or is it an Opera thing?

[Alan Au]

Maggie Cheung and Tony Leung Chiu-wai (www.ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g005/maggiecheungandtonyleungchiu-wai.html)
You win again, URL tag!

EDIT: original message edited to make my post seem pointless :(

oops, sorry about that.


I edited (multiple times) b/c I couldn't get the damn thing to display the way you managed to get it to display. Howjoodothat? Or is it an Opera thing?
The annoying BBCode URL tag only works on pages that start with 'www'. Don't include the 'http://' part. For sites that don't start with 'www', you can't use the URL tag; just enter the entire URL including the 'http://' portion.

- Alan

[Evil Jimi]

Thanks Alan ... I'll remember that.

[VegasRobb]

Well my copy of Hero arrived just before Christmas and as soon as I opened it, I realized that it's the very first foreign import DVD that I have ever owned. Right down to the xerox copy of a diagram telling you what chinese characters to click on to see the english subtitles. I'm hoping I don't lose that little piece of paper. :)

[tomatoe]

Jet Li was doing what he does best. He is actually an actor of high caliber, when he can speak his lines ... and understand what the director wants.

it's such an exciting movie because it brings back all the hk actors (like everyone says) who used to be really big time wu-xia actors in their youth ...

the political side is so emphasised in asia because movies are considered very avant garde especially in mainland china, where political dissidence is extremely dangerous. since you can't write anything political, you act it out. everyone in taiwan will implicitly assume that it is political at its core, which is how much art coming out of China used to be (it's changing nowadays) i think that view shortchanges the high artistic values of the movie, but being a taiwanese, i also can't look past the implied horrible outcome ... it's like the communists telling the taiwanese not to hold their national election, or not to have a public referendum, because that will be "good for the chinese people / race" ...

the story itself is a modification of a popular chinese historical story ... which has the hero try to assasinate the Emperor. He practices for most of his life, he got as close to finishing his life's work as the hero in the movie did, but at the end, he is found out and killed. His entire being is directed towards killing the emperor, and bringing peace to China, but in the end, he dies a bloody and painful death without realising his dream, and without giving away the names of his supporters. The character is THE national hero for anti-tyrany and anti-authoritarianism.

it's a story that is often sung in beijing opera, so the form of the movie itself can also be thought of as a modified beijing opera (listen to the sounds, the pacing of the action scenese, etc)

the repetition and the simple plot line is supposed to "hook" people who know the base story, and keep them guessing as to what is different. the difference is in the antihero ... instead of dying holding onto his beliefs to the bitter end, the hero is "converted" instead ...

all in all, i loved it ... for me, the only hero in the movie was the teacher at the writing school. even to death, he will not stop teaching, will not stop learning, will not stop carrying on the traditions of his culture. he embodied everything that i hold dear in chinese culture, in light of the many wars fought on chinese soil. in his own way, Yimou was able to sneak some bones for those who disagree with the final outcome, and in that way, i feel the movie is redeemed morally and politically ... (and yes, in china, art movies need some sort of moral evaluation ... which is not to say it needs "christian / western" morals. it's just that most of the stuff coming from communist china is totally nonmoral as in "the leader mao is the best" or "the great leap forward and the cultural revolution was the best thing to happen to china". things are getting more complicated, and movies that deal with hard subjects like homosexuality and political dissidence with a straight face are to be celebrated.)

the most amazing part was the music ... itzhak perlman on violin is just so unbelievably sublime ...

[Idar Thorvaldsen]

Can someone tell me just what the hell is going on here?

http://www.apple.com/trailers/miramax/hero/

That's not the story from the movie I saw.

[algahar]

i never care about hidden meanings of a movie, i just try to enjoy them at a not so deep level. as such Hero is a good movie to me, very good to look at, intriguing story etc.

yes most movies have a message, some political, some inspiring etc. but i choose to ignore the political ones, cause no politics is entertaining...

[Dirt]

I always thought that Broken Sword represented the KMT and Flying Snow was the DPP.

[novacane]

Can someone tell me just what the hell is going on here?

http://www.apple.com/trailers/miramax/hero/

That's not the story from the movie I saw.

Pft, you should see the American trailer for Zatoichi.

[VegasRobb]

Can someone tell me just what the hell is going on here?

http://www.apple.com/trailers/miramax/hero/

That's not the story from the movie I saw.

Pft, you should see the American trailer for Zatoichi.

I just saw Zatoichi at the CineVegas film festival ( www.cinevegas.com ) . What an interesting movie. Talk out swirling a bunch of different elements together. It was good tho.

[BlindSwordsman]

Hero, simply put, is one of the best movies I have ever seen. Go see when it hits theaters . And don't let the political critics sway you - the political messages do not hurt the film at all in my eyes.

[Anders Hallin]

Hero hasn't been released in cinemas in the US yet?

[Gordon Berg]

Hero hasn't been released in cinemas in the US yet?

No, it arrives in the states August 20th. But the trailer says it's being brought to us via Quentin Tarrentino. He's not going to re-edit it like he did with Iron Monkey, is he?

[Andrew Mayer]

Hero hasn't been released in cinemas in the US yet?

No, it arrives in the states August 20th. But the trailer says it's being brought to us via Quentin Tarrentino. He's not going to re-edit it like he did with Iron Monkey, is he?

Doubtful on this one. But the Iron Mokey edit was a good thing.

[Atman Binstock]

Just saw it at the NY Asian Film Festival. I've been a fan of Christopher Doyle for a while, but this blew me away. Definitely wait to watch it in the theatre.

[Idar Thorvaldsen]

Hero hasn't been released in cinemas in the US yet?

No, it arrives in the states August 20th. But the trailer says it's being brought to us via Quentin Tarrentino. He's not going to re-edit it like he did with Iron Monkey, is he?

Well, considering that the trailer described a completely different movie from what I saw, I'd consider it a distinct possibility.

[Don Quixote]

As far as I could tell, only a bit of the dialouge (subtitles, not spoken) was changed. I saw the trailer you're talking about, and yeah, it does make the movie seem totally different than what it is.

I saw the HK DVD release last year, and then I saw it two weeks ago at the Seattle International Film Festival, and the only differences I noticed were that the fight scene with Donnie Yen seemed longer (I remember it being very short, and this seemed longer), and the 'All Under Heaven' references at the end have been changed to 'Our Land' (the spoken dialouge has not been changed- I have a friend that was at the same screening who speaks chinese, and she was wondering about the weird translation).

[Dirt]

Hero, simply put, is one of the best movies I have ever seen. Go see when it hits theaters . And don't let the political critics sway you - the political messages do not hurt the film at all in my eyes.

The lack of great fight scenes does.

[Dirt]

The spoken Chinese words are 'Tien Xia'. Tien = Heaven, Xia = Under. 'All Under Heaven' is more accurate. Or rather 'Under Heaven'. But, I'm guessing, that most Western people would not understand that it would mean everyone under heaven so they put in 'All'.

[khgoh]

Yah , it's abit odd ,
but according to the ancient chinese ,
all under heaven IS Our land or vice versa....

:wink:

[Guido Jones]

Hero, simply put, is one of the best movies I have ever seen. Go see when it hits theaters . And don't let the political critics sway you - the political messages do not hurt the film at all in my eyes.

The lack of great fight scenes does.

I actually think the first fight scene from the movie that takes place at the chess house was great, but I would agree that most of the others are not fantastic.

[VegasRobb]

Just reanimating this older thread that talks about Hero. Some interesting stuff here.

[Anaxagoras]

Aw, man. I'm sorry I started a new thread, folks. Should've done a search, first.

[Dirt]

This is a kung fu movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104246/#comment

[VegasRobb]

Aw, man. I'm sorry I started a new thread, folks. Should've done a search, first.

Oh no worries about that. I just wanted to bump the thread. It had some good information in it.

[VegasRobb]

Weekend Box Office Estimates (U.S.)
Aug 27 - 29 weekend View Last Week's Actuals
This Wk Last Wk Title Dist. Weekend Gross Cumulative Gross Rlse Wks # of Theaters
1 - Hero M'MAX $17,801,631 $17,801,631 1 2031
2 - Anacondas: The Hunt for the Blood Orchid SCREEN GEMS $13,200,000 $13,200,000 1 2905
3 2 Without a Paddle PARA $8,700,000 $27,857,000 2 2730
4 3 Princess Diaries 2: Royal Engagement BV $8,068,000 $75,050,000 3 3331
5 1 Exorcist: The Beginning WB $6,735,000 $30,821,000 2 2813
6 6 Collateral D'WORKS $6,300,000 $80,000,000 4 2728
7 5 Open Water LIONS $5,000,000 $23,500,000 4 2709
8 4 Alien vs Predator FOX $4,800,000 -- 3 2880
9 7 The Bourne Supremacy UNIV $4,600,000 $157,708,000 6 2079
10 - Suspect Zero PARA $3,400,000 $3,400,000 1 1500
11 - Superbabies: Baby Geniuses 2 SONY $3,300,000 $3,300,000 1 1276
12 8 The Manchurian Candidate PARA $2,830,000 $59,003,000 5 1484

[Miramon]

Hero gets a big meh from me.

I wasn't impressed with the cinematography, the choreography, the plot, or the characters. It was mildly entertaining, and I didn't feel like I wasted an hour and a half, but there are many other martial arts movies I liked better, and within this sort of Chinese Opera genre, I thought Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was superior in all respects.

First, the cinematography. Sure, the scenic shots were nice. But I get the impression that China is pretty much lousy with beautiful movie backdrops, and CTHD among many others had outdoor scenes that were better. I don't object to the craftmanship of the cinematography, the production values were fine, but I thought the color-coded sequences were stylistically crude. It's one thing to use character costume changes as a way of signalling an alternative retelling or flashback, it's another thing for everything in the scene to be the same color. A few other stylistic touches like the swirling green silk hangings in the green-costume sequence just seemed juvenile to me. Overall, the scene-setting in Hero strikes me as a very weak attempt at a tour-de-force, and I found it to be naive and unsophisticated.

The choreography also was fairly unimpressive to me. I am admittedly not a connoisseur of wire work, but again I thought CTHD had superior martial arts choreography as well as superior wire sequences. I don't mean to say the combat sequences in Hero were actively bad (apart from the silly fake duel on the lake, which was more like some kind of absurd medieval synchronized hovering event) but they just weren't all that great either. The best one was the first duel with, um, Sky, I thought. I do admit the show-off test in which Nameless destroys all those "bookcases" and catches the cup on his sword was fun, but that's hardly martial arts choreography.

The plot was dumb, even by opera standards (and this kind of movie is basically opera without the singing.) For purposes of esthetically judging the movie, I am not considering the pandering-to-Beijing theme. Anyhow, idea of the sacrifice to get within 10 paces doesn't even make sense for a fairy tale -- though for the sake of suspension of disbelief I can accept it as a basic condition of the movie. The refusal of Broken Sword to bother to explain to his lover why he didn't want to assassinate the King of Qin anymore was contrived, even for opera, as was their "tragic" death. They seem to have overlooked Sky, too, who apparently is out there someplace free to continue his quest for vengeance, since he was only wounded by Nameless... Anyway, I would be willing to overlook the silly plot if the rest of the movie was good enough (CTHD also had a silly plot) but the other elements of the movie weren't really on a high enough level for that.

The characters were simply wooden caricatures, with no character development, and very little realistic emotion. I suppose that is not inconsistent with the operatic concept either, but I didn't really give a damn about any of them. I did sympathize with the actress who played poor Moon, though, she must have been thinking "oh great, I get to have another tragic scene in which I get killed or wind up crying uselessly and alone again" any number of times as she read through the script)

Finally, though it really is a minor point, I have to ask, what is it with these lame Wushu swords they always use in these movies? They seem to be made out of foil. A real medieval sword is not going to flop back and forth like a bobblehead doll when you swing it.... Sky's spear seemed sometimes to have the conventional stiffness and weight you'd expect from a military polearm apparently made out of solid silver, but at other times its staff assumed the firmness and consistency of a limp noodle, and various of the other swords used in the combat sequences had this way of wobbling and bouncing around that really took away from the supposed seriousness of the fights. I'm sure 1/4 kilo floppy swords that are only a millimeter thick are a lot safer for the actors and stunt-people than 2 kilo realistically rigid weapons, but there's got to be some way of making them at least somewhat plausible-looking.

[Dirt]

The bobble-head sword is quite common in wuxia novels/tv/movies. The idea is that the swordsman uses his inner-power to make the sword as hard as steel.

[Joel]

Is silver even that good of a metal to use in a weapon? Obviously it's better than a solid gold blade, but I'd sort of always chalked it up as a poetic touch to rationalize why a non +1 magical weapon could still kill kung-fu werewolves. Is there a historical precedent for using silver in real battles?

[Anaxagoras]

Is there a historical precedent for using silver in real battles?

I don't think so. Silver is an awful metal for weapons: it's soft. I think they often enlaid steel swords with silver as a way of decorating them, but weapons of pure silver would be pretty much useless.

[Ben Sones]

You know--spoilers and stuff.



Similar editorials have been written about how Sky, Broken Sword, and Flying Snow symbolize Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Tibet, and they all bend their knees to Qin.

That would be an interesting interpretation, aside from the fact that neither Sky nor Snow bend their knees to Qin. Snow kills herself out of grief, and it's not particularly clear whether she ended up agreeing with Broken Sword about whether or not Qin should live. Sky never comes back into the story, though presumably he would have been pissed off at Nameless for not killing Qin--especially after allowing Nameless to skewer him and all.

If there's a political message in the movie, it's several thousand years old.


It's still a beautiful movie, and I view it a little more as myth rather than history, so I'm actually fairly detached about the whole "pro-Chinese government" deal. But I still think it's kinda fucked-up to make the Qin emperor so noble and heroic. But man, seeing Maggie Cheung deflect thousands of arrows with her sleeves makes it worth the viewing for me.

It is a beautiful movie, and I'd say that it's pretty much all myth and no history, but I thought it worked very nicely on that level. But I didn't think Qin was portrayed as being particularly noble or heroic. I mean, every other character in the film seems to have a horror story about the injustices they suffered at the hands of Qin's army. Qin, while talking to Nameless, comes across as more of a meglomaniac than a noble uniter (remember the scene where he confides to Nameless that he really wants to conquer the entire world, which visibly startles the otherwise stoic Nameless?). And in the end, he orders Nameless executed even though he knows that he poses no threat. I thought it was pretty clear that Nameless, at least, was skeptical of Qin's motives when he warns him not to forget the "laying down the sword" part of his plan once he finishes the "conquering all of China" part.

Just my take. I loved this movie, BTW.

[Lizard_King]

It's still a beautiful movie, and I view it a little more as myth rather than history, so I'm actually fairly detached about the whole "pro-Chinese government" deal. But I still think it's kinda fucked-up to make the Qin emperor so noble and heroic. But man, seeing Maggie Cheung deflect thousands of arrows with her sleeves makes it worth the viewing for me.
Look on the bright side. It's sort of a novelty to laud Chinese emperors in historical fiction...it sure beats the Mel Gibson 'those damned, dirty Brits' approach. I guess Hero would be historical fantasy, though.

[Dirt]

I kind of saw the Red parts as Communist China's view of Taiwan politics as a battle between former lovers. Tony Leung (Blue-Kuomintang) and Maggie Chung (Green-Democratic People's Party). Zhang Ziyi is the small off shoot party of the Kuomingtang. The Blue parts of the story shows how Blue protects Green. The Green parts show the insanity of the Democratic People's Party. The Blue (Tony Leung) is always talking about going home (re-integration with China proper) and the Green is always talking about getting rid of the Evil Emperor.

[DrCrypt]

God, I just went and saw this again - someone (maybe you guys) convinced me I hadn't given it a fair shot the first time. I'm sorry - Hero blows. It's the Doom 3 of Asian cinema. This movie is basically a case study on how not to make compelling films. A 90 minute film so plotless that the story needs to be told three times but, never the less, could be compressed to a shorter length than an episode of Friends if it hadn't been filmed entirely in slow motion. Just insert a commercial break any time a one-dimensional characters looks back over their shoulder or lets a single maudlin tear trickle silently down their cheek.

[Tyjenks]

I saw it a few weeks ago, too. It seem liked long pauses of crazy Japanese mythos which we are , I guess, supposed to accept as their form of riveting storytelling in between cool fighting scenes. I was trying really hard to like it as I found a time to go without my wife, who would have hated it, and saw it alone. Maybe we can blame it on Tarantino. Didn't he do the editing for the US release?

[DrCrypt]

I've seenthe other subtitled release a couple years back. Some of the subtitles are different but otherwise, it's the same damn movie. Either way, the most flagrant problem with the film is how damn melodramatic it is, coupled with the fact that it is filmed almost entirely in slow motion. And as much as I'd like blame that shit on Tarantino, he wasn't responsible for either. It really is a bad film - I can only assume people who love it are more in love with the look of the film (which is beautiful, if obviously CGI enhanced) and the supposed "deep" political message behind it.

[Dirt]

I wouldn't call it a deep political message. Relevant and to some, offensive, but not deep.

[Terrence]

I've seenthe other subtitled release a couple years back. Some of the subtitles are different but otherwise, it's the same damn movie. Either way, the most flagrant problem with the film is how damn melodramatic it is, coupled with the fact that it is filmed almost entirely in slow motion. And as much as I'd like blame that shit on Tarantino, he wasn't responsible for either. It really is a bad film - I can only assume people who love it are more in love with the look of the film (which is beautiful, if obviously CGI enhanced) and the supposed "deep" political message behind it.

Stop reading Armond White, dude.

It's stunningly beautiful, occassionally exciting, and quite engrossing at times. It's worthy on those terms alone.

[Dirt]

When I watch a kung fu movie, I want lotsa good fights. If I just want to look at pretty pictures, there are plenty of documentaries on China.

[bago]

What, it was the best use of CG in a kung-fu movie ever. It was purty. Enjoy that.

[DrCrypt]

Stop reading Armond White, dude.
Huh? This guy (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/external-search/026-3826049-2790851?field-keywords=armond+white&index=blended&tag=edazzlenet-21&sourceid=Mozilla-search)?

Also, nice qualifiers on everything. "Quite engrossing... at times". "Occasionally exciting". Except for the stunningly beautiful part (which I agree with, but that's barely a quality of the film itself, and one's tolerance for the beauty of the film really goes hand in hand with one's tolerance for insane saturation of slow-mo and garishly juvenile color symbolism) you can say that almost any film is occasionally good.

[Anaxagoras]

What the hell? Terrence put in the qualifiers because the movie isn't always exciting... most of the time it's quiet and contemplative. Similarly for the engrossing thing: sometimes Terrence thought it was just a movie, rather than an all-engrossing experience.

Jesus. You don't like the movie. Great. I have no problems with that... I can see why you might think it sucks. But why the repeated posts about how awful you think it is?

[Post-It]

The fight scenes were excellent and the story was decent at best but the one thing that bothers me the most is people gushing over how beautiful the film is.

The whole thing came off to me like some 14 year old kid had first discovered how to use the Curves tool in Photoshop. ooooohhhh! Lookit at all the hypersaturated colors.

I don't mind that the director wanted to integrate a visual style with the plot of the film however it just felt overboard to me. So many people seem to have gone on and on about the film's beauty & color when it just seems over-the-top and oversaturated to me. If selectively applying filters to film is all it takes to make an "artsy" movie, well then sign me up.
________
NINO VACCARELLA (http://www.ferrari-wiki.com/wiki/Nino_Vaccarella)

[DrCrypt]

Jesus. You don't like the movie. Great. I have no problems with that... I can see why you might think it sucks. But why the repeated posts about how awful you think it is?
Because I just saw it again, I clarified my opinion of it in the second viewing, and my "repeated posts" are, in fact, responses to people responding to my initial clarification? But don't let the fact that this is actually a dialogue spoil you from acting like a reactionary prima donna about it, which is your best and only bit. Apology not accepted!

[Tyjenks]

Yeah Crypt. If you could keep your replies to one post per topic and one line per post, it would cut back on all of that spewing, illiterate rigamarole you call explaning your point of view.

[DrCrypt]

Was that a joke post? I honestly have no idea, although me and Tyjenks were moistly holding each other's hands in our irrational, hate-filled "Hero" spew a mere five posts before. Either way, I liked it, because no one's ever called me "illiterate" before. And I still love Tyjenks.

[Tyjenks]

Was that a joke post? I honestly have no idea, although me and Tyjenks were moistly holding each other's hands in our irrational, hate-filled "Hero" spew a mere five posts before. Either way, I liked it, because no one's ever called me "illiterate" before. And I still love Tyjenks.

I thought the "illiterate" crack would have been the tip-off. If anything, you are too literate with all of you fancy verbiage. To quote another high minded and controversial figure, Chris Rock, "College? You're just a smarty-art nigga'. I can count, too. 1-2-4-5-6. SEE!?!"

I was trying so hard to like it so I could come back to this board and gush. I shoulda stayed home and caught up on my game backlog.

[Anaxagoras]

Jesus. You don't like the movie. Great. I have no problems with that... I can see why you might think it sucks. But why the repeated posts about how awful you think it is?
Because I just saw it again, I clarified my opinion of it in the second viewing, and my "repeated posts" are, in fact, responses to people responding to my initial clarification?Hmm.. that's odd. I thought "clarifying" means "adding something". Guess not. Learn something new every day.


Apology not accepted!
Awww... is 'umms still sore about that castigation? Soddy chum. Perhaps if you hadn't so richly deserved that after behaving like a 5 year old, I wouldn't have sent that.

[Idar Thorvaldsen]

It really is a bad film - I can only assume people who love it are more in love with the look of the film (which is beautiful, if obviously CGI enhanced).
Is there something wrong with that? I enjoyed Hero for the aesthetics, much like I enjoyed Chronicles of Riddick for the same reason. I'm not going to say they're good movies, or not bad, even, but they were pretty, and I don't think it's less valid to like a movie for its looks rather than for its plot or the performance of the actors.


I don't mind that the director wanted to integrate a visual style with the plot of the film however it just felt overboard to me. So many people seem to have gone on and on about the film's beauty & color when it just seems over-the-top and oversaturated to me. If selectively applying filters to film is all it takes to make an "artsy" movie, well then sign me up.
It is over-the-top, sure, and that's kind of the point. I don't see how you can call Hero 'artsy' in any way, though.

[DrCrypt]

Awww... is 'umms still sore about that castigation? Soddy chum. Perhaps if you hadn't so richly deserved that after behaving like a 5 year old, I wouldn't have sent that.
Heh. No, no one's feeling castigated here, surely not by your reactionary response to an apology that was entirely hypothetical and just-for-form , at least to the doofuses constantly fighting the urge to arch their arms behind their back and mumble Mark 15:34 under their breaths. To be honest, I have to thank you for saying it, since me and half my buddies have a growing lexicon of Dom 2 inspired shrieky self-righteousness, and this quote heads the list. I can think of no other single quote in the history of literature that has afforded me such bemusement. Sometimes JamesG and I will message each other and say things like "Sorry for not getting back to you sooner", JamesG responds "Apology not accepted!" and then we just laugh and laugh and laugh, because really, who besides a martyr and an idiot would say something like that? Tit for tat, the prisoner's dilemma and all that.

Anyway, back to your "point", where you try to pretend that even if I was giving an opinion of Hero which you totally agreed with you would be in here hysterically screeching about the redundancy of my opinion-giving. Yes yes, I'm sure the real issue here is simple a detached philosophical reverence for one-off opinion giving, not the fact that you're threatened to the point of hysteria by someone giving an opinion you don't agree with. No need to reply - I'm totally convinced!

[Terrence]

Stop reading Armond White, dude.
Huh? This guy (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/external-search/026-3826049-2790851?field-keywords=armond+white&index=blended&tag=edazzlenet-21&sourceid=Mozilla-search)?

Yup, this guy:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:TcuajPLKdgsJ:www.nypress.com/17/34/film/white.cfm+%22armond+white%22+hero&hl=en&lr=&strip=1


These settings seem heightened (if not created) by each character's longing. Every one of Jet Li's tales as Nameless situates a scene in a personal motive, yet, soon, the same imagery is doomed by mankind's intrigues. No other Jet Li film I've seen has been this sophisticated about national myth. Zhang explores the moral complexity of history. Ang Lee's Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon failed, ultimately, because its lack of moral dilemma condescended to the international market. Hero reimagines Chinese history with a moral purpose.

I use qualifiers because the movie isn't Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. I use them for perspective, dude. Good, but not great. (There's another qualifier).

Are you one of those sux/rox movie critics, hamstrung by a binary system, or do you use qualifiers to place your observations in their proper place?

[Anaxagoras]

Sometimes JamesG and I will message each other and say things like "Sorry for not getting back to you sooner", JamesG responds "Apology not accepted!" and then we just laugh and laugh and laugh, because really, who besides a martyr and an idiot would say something like that?
You thought that E-mail had anything to do with Dom2, or not getting a turn back sooner? Oh dear. I'm usually a much better communicator than that. How embarrassing.


Yes yes, I'm sure the real issue here is simple a detached philosophical reverence for one-off opinion giving, not the fact that you're threatened to the point of hysteria by someone giving an opinion you don't agree with.Yes, that's it. You've hit the nail on the head. What I've been emphasizing in my posts is not that you sound like a broken record player, but that you dared to contradict me. Why, just look at all the posts in this and the other Hero thread where I lacerate all those that don't share my opinion. Oh wait... there are none. Nor are there any in any of the Books/Movies/Games forums. Not for dissenting opinions, at any rate.

Yes, I know I'm being tedious by looking at things like "past history" and the "real world". Please forgive me. You can just forget about this whole thing and return to your world of fiction. I won't tell anybody. It'll be our little secret.

[Dirt]

I think the marketing of the movie masks who the real hero of the story is. It's not the Nameless man (the warrior) or Qin Di (the emperor), it's Broken Sword (the scholar).

[Bill Dungsroman]

I think the marketing of the movie masks who the real hero of the story is. It's not the Nameless man (the warrior) or Qin Di (the emperor), it's Broken Sword (the scholar).
In that case, the final screen text masks it too, since it says TNM was remembered as a hero.

[Dirt]

I think the marketing of the movie masks who the real hero of the story is. It's not the Nameless man (the warrior) or Qin Di (the emperor), it's Broken Sword (the scholar).
In that case, the final screen text masks it too, since it says TNM was remembered as a hero.
The Scholar is always forgotten.

[Mike O'Malley]

The real heroes are those of us who sat through this thread, which- while not quite as entertaining as the movie- has certainly dragged on longer.

[Kunikos]

I just don't get the fuss about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Yes, the kung fu scenes were a few notches above the usual kung fu movie. But the story was bland.

I think maybe it's because your heart is made of stone.

[Kunikos]

The real heroes are those of us who sat through this thread, which- while not quite as entertaining as the movie- has certainly dragged on longer.

Not enough wire-fu. I give the thread battle a grade of C-.

[Anders Hallin]

Can someone end this thread on a rather fascist note, then?

[Dirt]

I just don't get the fuss about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Yes, the kung fu scenes were a few notches above the usual kung fu movie. But the story was bland.

I think maybe it's because your heart is made of stone.
Or maybe it's because I've watched too many Hong Kong kung fu serials where just about everybody dies at the end.