Are there any good modern RPG's that don't rely on a kill the Foozle ending?

[Brendan]

Just a quick question since I can't think of any off hand.

[McBain]

Are we counting games where you can:

- Join up with the Foozle
- Win by *avoiding* conflict with the Foozle

etc?

[Thomas Wilde]

What, like games that don't have a final, climactic battle, the winning of which begins the ending sequence?

[Dean]

What do you consider modern?

Planescape: Torment
Morrowind and Oblivion, just ignore the main quest.

[Thomas Wilde]

Actually, in Oblivion, you can go ahead and complete the main quest. The Foozle in question cannot be killed.

[AlexxKay]

The very end of Torment *was* kill a foozle. It was a very unique and different kind of foozle, and there were non-combat ways to kill it, but still...

[RichardC]

If you got the 'correct' ending, you never even had a fight with it.

[Zylon]

Ummmm.... Myst?

/got nuthin'

[Mark L]

The First Fallout had two "final encounters". One of them could be accomplished without combat, at least.

[Equisilus]

Short answer: No.

All RPGs have a "kill the foozle" ending because you spend nearly the entire game killing mini-foozles and reaching the end without having the option to kill the biggest foozle of them all would be silly (and probably a letdown after you built up all that expectation for dozens of hours).

Personally, there are very few games where I enjoyed the ending, even with games I've considered true classics. Planescape was one I liked because I didn't kill the foozle, and the rest of the game was such that not having a last battle was not out of the ordinary. But if you take Hordes of the Underdark, which had different options at the end, if you suddenly chose not to kill Mr. Foozle it would be a huge shift from the rest of the game which you spent slaying creatures left and right. It just didn't fit well to change the style of gameplay. (There are probably better examples, but that's just off the top of my headachey head.)

I think RPGs force themselves into the "kill the foozle" rut just by the style of gameplay throughout the beginning and middle of the game. I would love an RPG that showed some true ingenuity in how it handles end-game, but I think that consideration is often overruled by the simple fact that not killing the foozle may be more of a letdown when expectations are so heavily weighted along those lines. (Hmm, didn't I already say that? *sigh*)

[zabuni]

Part of the above, is of course, because you have many and varied tools for foozle killing, and few tools for not foozle killing.

[Jake Plane]

Deus Ex Invisible War. Arguably, you can:

Kill the Foozle
Kill the Foozle and his family
Kill ALL the Foozles
Become a Foozle yourself, so not bother with the foozality of foozles.

Also, Deus Ex gave you a non Kill the Foozle option, if I recall correctly. Both are great games.

[SirBruce]

Most MMORPGs don't have an ending.

Bruce

[Mark Crump]

Most MMORPGs don't have an ending.

Bruce

Most MMOs are all about hittin' the foozle.

[Balasarius]

Over and over and over and over...

Until the devs say, "Suprise! More foozles!"

[Desslock]

Temple of Elemental Evil, if you are an evil party.

[Zylon]

Also, Deus Ex gave you a non Kill the Foozle option, if I recall correctly./slaps forehead

Dang, forgot about that one. The good old "Join Helios" ending. Even better, that was the original planned ending before they came up with the idea of allowing multiple endings (an idea that was raised relatively late in development).

Still, you're metaphorically killing Bob Foozle by eliminating him as a threat.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Yeah, all I can come up with is Torment's awesome option and an honorable mention for Fallout2, where you still fight the guy, but you can gimp the hell out of him by reprogramming the gun turrets to wail on him in the process.

[roguefrog]

Ultima IV - Quest of the Avatar. But it's not modern, doh!

Planescape
Fallout
Arcanum

[Stroker Ace]

How about kill the foozle, steal his amulet, and then climb back out of the dungeon? Does having post-foozle gameplay elevate a game on this scale?

[Bill Dungsroman]

Ultima IV - Quest of the Avatar.

But it's not modern, doh!
Hopefully, the 300 hours of your life it took to discover that.

Edit: fag.

[John Sansker]

Yeah, all I can come up with is Torment's awesome option and an honorable mention for Fallout2, where you still fight the guy, but you can gimp the hell out of him by reprogramming the gun turrets to wail on him in the process.
Fallout 2, if you have a decent speechcraft skill, you can also fast talk the other guys in the room into attacking the boss man.

[Ben Sones]

Ummmm.... Myst?

That is neither an RPG, nor modern.

[Stroker Ace]

What defines a modern RPG smarty man? I'd give a nod to Diablo2 multiplayer, which is rather endless. I'll confess that my ultimate goal was to kill Baal on Hell/Hardcore thus becoming a Guardian.

[Zylon]

That is neither an RPG, nor modern.Hence...


/got nuthin'And Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

[roguefrog]

Hopefully, the 300 hours of your life it took to discover that.

Edit: fag.

Unprovoked hostilities from a random person on the internet. Boo hiss!

[Bill Dungsroman]

Unprovoked hostilities from a random person on the internet. Boo hiss!
You originally asked what you won for your answer. YOU KILLED MY JOKE, MAN.

[unbongwah]

I think there have been some NWN mods which didn't end with a final-boss fight - or at least gave you an option of winning non-violently - but I'm blanking on names, I'm afraid...some of the mysteries, perhaps?

[Sebmolo]

Ultima IV had a fantastic ending. I remember the sense of completion as the sign was drawn really clearly, and it was ... 21 years ago? Jesus god I'm old.

[Quitch]

Planescape Torment and... uh...

Let's face it, most enemies in an RPG have gone so far beyond the point of no return that death is something they're willing to risk for whatever their ultimate goal is, or in some cases you're storming their place and they don't have a whole lot of choice :)

Still, it's shocking how little variation there is when you think about it.

[Saber Cherry]

Some of the Quest for Glory games had no 'main foozle'.

[Qenan]

Most MMORPGs don't have an ending.

Or a beginning, or a middle, or much of anything beyond killing foozles, over and over and ...

[roguefrog]

You originally asked what you won for your answer. YOU KILLED MY JOKE, MAN.

Ninja Edit +10

[Alan Au]

Some of the Quest for Glory games had no 'main foozle'.I guess it depends on how you define "main foozle," but I remember them all ramping up to progressively nastier foozles as you progressed through the series.

Nope, I can't really think of any cRPGs that don't have main foozles to defeat in some manner.

- Alan

[roguefrog]

^Ultima IV is the quintessential traditional non-foozle cRPG. Tis why I mentioned it. There is generic stuff i.e Troll, Dragon, etc...but no named villain worthy to be called a foozle!

[KieronGillen]

Foozle is being defined so loosely anything which features a plot resolving (i.e. Conflict) is a kill the foozle.

Planescape Torment isn't in any meaningful way a Kill the Foozle ending if you talk through it. In fact, the whole thing's easily read as commentary on the Kill The Foozle endings.

I never heard the phrase "kill the foozle" before entering this thread, but appear to have gone completely native.

KG

[roguefrog]

Well most cRPGs have a "kill the foozle" resolve. Planescape: Torment has one. Just fight TTO.
TTO = OMG Foozle! *lightning bolt* *lightning bolt*

[Anders Hallin]

Well, pretty much none of the QfG games rely on you killing something the regular way.
It's all use a mirror, shove, throw a rock at, that kind of thing.

[RichardC]

Or in the case of QFG4, tell him the Ultimate Joke.

[Calistas]

This could end up a comedy thread.

The RPG Foozle List:
- Fallout: Kill foozles with a dog while levelling pornstar
- Planescape Torment: Kill foozles and listen to a talking skull
- EQ: Kill foozles after 2 weeks of planning and a 12 hour wait

...you may carry on in a humourous vein.

[curst]

Please don't read this as an endorsement of the game, because it's not, because the game sucks so very badly, but...

Might & Magic 8's ending involved a lame conversation and an FMV that was so poor it may as well have been a "CONGRATURATION! YOU ARE SUPER WINNER." 8-bit arcade wrestling game ending.

I can't emphasize this enough: it sucked. The whole game sucked. But you did not have to slay the foozle.

[Quitch]

Wow, Might & Magic 8 sounds awesome!

[Equisilus]

Might & Magic 8's ending involved a lame conversation and an FMV that was so poor it may as well have been a "CONGRATURATION! YOU ARE SUPER WINNER." 8-bit arcade wrestling game ending.

Damn, I was sitting here thinking and thinking about this wondering why I couldn't remember that ending. Then: oh, I stopped with the M&M series at #7, that's why. Duh!

Bowed out while it was still decent, and happy I did.

[Jazar]

I hate to mention it but did Ultima 9 end with "killing the foozle"? Naturally my brain blocked all plot details on that bad boy.

[RichardC]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you punched up the Guardian.

[awdougherty]

technically not really, but I felt like none of the Ultimas after 4 really ended with a kill the foozle boss fight.

[unbongwah]

I never heard the phrase "kill the foozle" before entering this thread, but appear to have gone completely native.
Really? I've been hearing about Foozle since the late 80s, at least. I think it was in Scorpia's old RPG reviews for CGW way back when that I first heard it, though I've no idea if she coined the term.

[Dave Markell]

Really? I've been hearing about Foozle since the late 80s, at least. I think it was in Scorpia's old RPG reviews for CGW way back when that I first heard it, though I've no idea if she coined the term.

That's where I first encountered it, too. Wonder whatever happened to her?

[Midnight Son]

"You expect me to talk?"

"No, Mr. Foozle, I expect you to die! Muwahahahahah!"

[shift6]

Temple of Elemental Evil, if you are an evil party.
I think a party of good guys can do it also; it involves the jewel-encrusted throne and the golden skull but I don't remember the details. Basically you can banish her without combat while she's still in "old crone" form.

[unbongwah]

Wonder whatever happened to her?
I've seen Scorpia pop up on other sites over the years, like Just RPG and Just Adventure, but nothing recent: been pretty quiet the last couple of years, near as I can tell. But it looks like she just opened her own site (http://www.scorpia.com/).

[Qenan]

She had a subscription site at one time, I seem to recall. Unsuprisingly, that didn't pan out.

[Naked_Lunch]

If you know where to look, there's quite a few. Everyone moans and groans about the death of RPGs in the mainstream market (and rightly so) but underneath that is the glorious rainbow chocolately goodness that is indie and underground games.

Teudogar and the Alliance with Rome (http://www.teudogar.com/) is a neat game set during Roman times, and if you side with the Romans, there's no foozle-killing.

All the Geneforge (http://spiderwebsoftware.com/) games allow you to either kill the foozle, join up with it and rule the world, join up and betray it, or just ignore it. Love those games.

Gearhead (http://www.geocities.com/pyrrho12/programming/gearhead/) has no actualy foozle to speak of, instead you're just plopped down into a semi-post-apocalyptic world and you're off to do whatever you'd like. You can even become a coroporate executive!

Hammer & Sickle (http://www.nival.com/hs/), which was a grossly underrated game in my opinion, is quite possibly the most open-ended game out there and features several (I think...4? Maybe more...) different endings, with only one requiring you to kill the foozle.

In Space Rangers 2 (http://www.spacerangers2.com/) you can strike a deal with one of the main foozles, so technically I guess that's not "kill the foozle."

All the other "modern" ones I can think have been mentioned. Fallout, Arcanum, et al.

[instant0]

What if you killed the giant foozle at the begining, that is, you played the 'end' of the story first, and then move backwards through the story, so you get weaker and weaker and eventually end up as a noob?

[Naked_Lunch]

Interesting idea in terms of just game theory but it would simply fall flat in execution. One of the best things about RPGs is the whole character advancement thing and watching you're character grow and customize him. If the game worked backwards, how would that work? Subtracting points? What about character generation? How would the game determine how much EXP you had to distrubute and so on and so forth. Plus, it would be linear as hell.

It's a good template for a "Game Designer Challenge" contest perhaps, but I doubt I'd like to play an RPG like that.

Now, a time-traveling RPG. That'd be cool.

[roguefrog]

You could play different PCs. The first one being the most powerful and then taking control of weaker ones as the game progresses. Not sure how that would make sense though.

I'd much rather play the Foozle.

[Equisilus]

Now, a time-traveling RPG. That'd be cool.

Mmmm, "Memento"-style? I think it'd work great as a game.

[Midnight Son]

What if you killed the giant foozle at the begining, that is, you played the 'end' of the story first, and then move backwards through the story, so you get weaker and weaker and eventually end up as a noob?

Woo! Fun! Not!

[Moore]

Most MMOs are all about hittin' the foozle.

but never killing it (by killing I mean dead, gone, not dead for 5 minutes)

[KaoFloppy]

Now, a time-traveling RPG. That'd be cool.
Chrono Trigger for PSX. And it *was* cool.

And, (Spoilers! how do you do spoiler tag?)
.
.
.
.
.
you can run into the end boss near the very beginning. you might die, or win the game...

[Theodore Rex DX]

Majora's Mask did it beautifully. Not an RPG, strictly speaking, but nothing else comes close to making time travel as awesome and sad as Majora's Mask.

[Charles]

Chrono Trigger for PSX. And it *was* cool.

And, (Spoilers! how do you do spoiler tag?)
.
.
.
.
.
you can run into the end boss near the very beginning. you might die, or win the game...


Play Chrono Trigger on SNES or an emulator. The PSX version adds some brutally painful loadtimes before combat and inventory. Also, you can't run in to the end boss near the beginning until your second runthrough of the game.

[roguefrog]

Yes, you need the NEW GAME+ option

Most of the alternate endings are just silly easter eggs or goofy stupid.

[Naked_Lunch]

Yeah, I've played Chrono Trigger/Cross and they were not but JRPGs really aren't my bag. Majora's Mask had a lot of promise and was pretty adventerous, but could've been fleshed out more I think in terms of choices you made and consequences. Not an RPG, technical limitations etc. I know, just kinda thinking out loud.

[Lizard_King]

All the other "modern" ones I can think have been mentioned. Fallout, Arcanum, et al.
Wait a minute....someone actually finished Arcanum?

[Naked_Lunch]

5 times and I'm going back in again :D

[Rimbo]

This could end up a comedy thread.

The RPG Foozle List:
- Fallout: Kill foozles with a dog while levelling pornstar
- Planescape Torment: Kill foozles and listen to a talking skull
- EQ: Kill foozles after 2 weeks of planning and a 12 hour wait

...you may carry on in a humourous vein.

Are you sure you didn't confuse Planescape Torment with Monkey Island?

[Naked_Lunch]

- Fallout: Kill foozles with a dog while levelling pornstar
That's just Fallout 2. Fallout 1 actually had class and was beatable without engaging in any combat at all.