Canadian Terrorists

[Robert Sharp]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060603/ts_nm/crime_arrests_dc_17

This one is pretty big, from the sound of it. Wow!

[Dave Markell]

Yeah, wow indeed. I've been following this story all day. I'm surprised a P&R thread on the topic didn't get started some 12 hours ago, when I first heard of it.

[metta]

If the story has legs, and gets picked up by large (Canadian) print outlets, it will be interesting to see how their nationality is described. Right now they're 'Canadian terrorists', how long before they become '<Insert Other Ethnicity>-Canadian terrorists'?

(For reference, take a look at the coverage of Ben Johnson, the sprinter. Before his dope scandal he was 'Canadian sprinter, Ben Johnson', after he was busted, he became 'Jamaican-Canadian sprinter, Ben Johnson'. Ahhh dominant social discourse, how we love thee.)

[Karen]

Right now (from the Globe and Mail) they are refered to as Canadian citizens and Canadian residents. The only reference to thier ethnic background comes from a statement that they've been visited by their Iman. "In court, Mr. Galati (the lawyer) was accompanied by Aly Hindy, a Toronto imam and friend of the highly-controversial Khadr family, who have well-established connections to al-Qaeda."

What's interesting are the similarities to the Oklahoma city bombings. The articles I've read state that they had three times the amount of ammonium nitrate as was used in Oklahoma city. The similarities to Oklahoma city are interesting. The Oklahoma city terrorist attack was not 'Islamic' terrorism, it was not home grown terrorism, it was not white trash honky terrorism. It was TERRORISM plain and simple.

Terrorists come from all walks of life and ethnic groups, the ones active now just happen to follow Islam. In the past 40 years in the States we have seen attacks (some minor) by Christian Fundamentalist terrorists (who do you think bombs abortion clinics and gay clubs), Leftist terrorists (the weathermen, SLA etc), the black panthers, far right terrorists (Militia types - the biggest being Oklahoma city).

Terrorists attack because they believe that we live in a wicked immoral society that can only be changed by violence. They believe that the can create some sort of ideal society after they punish all of the decadent un-believers.

I'm not sure why any one would think Canada is immune. Canada is a liberal society much like the US and Europe - and liberal society is not something that extremists appreciate.

->Karen writing from Karen's laptop

[Robert Sharp]

Well, in the article I linked, it gives at least one name, which is a pretty Arab sounding one.

[Charles]

Well, in the article I linked, it gives at least one name, which is a pretty Arab sounding one.

So what? If he was born here, he's Canadian.

[Robert Sharp]

So what? If he was born here, he's Canadian.

Yes, I know. But Karen was pointing out that so far there are no links to Islamic terrorism being mentioned. I was just noting that the Islamic sounding names will make that link become part of the media frenzy that is likely to surround these arrests.

So people aren't likely to compare this to Oklahoma as much as al-Qaeda.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Yes, I know. But Karen was pointing out that so far there are no links to Islamic terrorism being mentioned. I was just noting that the Islamic sounding names will make that link become part of the media frenzy that is likely to surround these arrests.

She wasn't saying that there was no link to Islamic terrorism. In fact, her own post mentions the al-Qaeda connection that has been announced from the very beginning.

Karen's point was that the terrorists have not been referred to in news reports by any other national adjective than "Canadian".

Troy

[Robert Sharp]

Yep. Remember when 9/11 happened and gas stations put out signs saying "American owned"? What they meant, of course, was non-Arab-owned. The fact that the Middle Easterners (and even Indian and Pakastani) owners were also Americans didn't matter. Instead, the ethnicity mattered. So I am curious whether people will pick up on the ethnicity and stop calling them Canadian and start calling them Arabs (or whatever). So far, it hasn't happened, but as the story gets into America, it could.

[Jason McCullough]

Ontario? I wonder what the reasoning was - Afghanistan?

[Ben Sones]

So far, it hasn't happened, but as the story gets into America, it could.

Canada, of course, has no racism.

[LarryLard]

(For reference, take a look at the coverage of Ben Johnson, the sprinter. Before his dope scandal he was 'Canadian sprinter, Ben Johnson', after he was busted, he became 'Jamaican-Canadian sprinter, Ben Johnson'. Ahhh dominant social discourse, how we love thee.)

Reminds me of the Northern Irish former Formula 1 driver Eddie Irvine, who (in the British media) was "British driver Eddie Irvine" when doing well, and "Irish driver Eddie Irvine" when doing badly.

[Toddy]

Right now (from the Globe and Mail) they are refered to as Canadian citizens and Canadian residents. The only reference to thier ethnic background comes from a statement that they've been visited by their Iman. "In court, Mr. Galati (the lawyer) was accompanied by Aly Hindy, a Toronto imam and friend of the highly-controversial Khadr family, who have well-established connections to al-Qaeda."

A list of those arrested has been released. All Muslim names, save one convert (er, sorry Muhammad, I mean revert) named Steve. According to what I've been reading in the Star, Mop and Pail, NYT, etc., the arrests came as the result of an ongoing sting operation by the RCMP and CSIS, and that this group was linked to others in the US and abroad. It seems like international police organizations were involved here.

What's interesting are the similarities to the Oklahoma city bombings. The articles I've read state that they had three times the amount of ammonium nitrate as was used in Oklahoma city. The similarities to Oklahoma city are interesting. The Oklahoma city terrorist attack was not 'Islamic' terrorism, it was not home grown terrorism, it was not white trash honky terrorism. It was TERRORISM plain and simple.

Terrorists come from all walks of life and ethnic groups, the ones active now just happen to follow Islam. In the past 40 years in the States we have seen attacks (some minor) by Christian Fundamentalist terrorists (who do you think bombs abortion clinics and gay clubs), Leftist terrorists (the weathermen, SLA etc), the black panthers, far right terrorists (Militia types - the biggest being Oklahoma city).

The only similarities to Murrah involve the fertilizer apparently being used to make some massive bomb. Other than that, this is another, now-textbook example of Islamist jihadi activity. According to the stories coming out in today's papers, many of the arrested were linked to a Mississauga mosque where Qayyum Abdul Jamal, the oldest of the suspects at 43, spoke and was one of the leaders.

Gee, have we heard this story before?

And bringing up everything from the bank-robbing hippie-commie Weathermen to the Black Panthers is just ridiculous. Those groups operated for months at a time in very limited areas of the US. The Islamist movement is worldwide, has killed many thousands of people, and, as we've seen with these arrests, could strike just about anywhere on the planet.

Also, I don't see these radical Christian fundamentalists you mention doing much in the US these days other than wringing their hands over the moral calumny of calling Christmas "The Holidays." They'd better hurry up and start bombing a lot of your abortion clinics and gay clubs if they want to catch up with the Islamists! Just the Bali bombing alone killed more people than these Christian fundy groups have in the past, well, ever.

[Dean]

Can we now invade Canada because it is a breeding ground for terrorism?

Just sayin'...

[Desslock]

And bringing up everything from the bank-robbing hippie-commie Weathermen to the Black Panthers is just ridiculous.

Yeah, it's pretty disturbing that so many people seem more concerned about the backlash towards muslims than with the fact that the Canadian mosque where these guys were recruited from is spreading genocidal hatred, the RCMP has apparently identified at least two training camps in Ontario, and a racist cult is trying to murder large numbers of our citizens.

But yeah, I guess that's not important compared to some kids throwing rocks at a mosque.

[dannimal]

You got P&R in my EE! No, you got EE in my P&R!

[Toddy]

Yeah, it's pretty disturbing that so many people seem more concerned about the backlash towards muslims than with the fact that the Canadian mosque where these guys were recruited from is spreading genocidal hatred, the RCMP has apparently identified at least two training camps in Ontario, and a racist cult is trying to murder large numbers of our citizens.

But yeah, I guess that's not important compared to some kids throwing rocks at a mosque.

Oh yeah. You get the feeling that even if this plot had succeeded, and hundreds were killed on Go trains or whatever, that the Toronto Star would still lead the next day with a big Antonia Zerbisias column about how the real problem in our society is Islamophobia.

Sheesh, the top story at the Star right now is about the Toronto police chief asking Muslims and non-Muslims to be calm in the wake of a couple of windows at a mosque apparently being broken in a "hate crime." Good thing the Star is focusing on the big picture!

[extarbags]

The Oklahoma city terrorist attack was not 'Islamic' terrorism, it was not home grown terrorism, it was not white trash honky terrorism. It was TERRORISM plain and simple.

I dunno, "white trash terrorism" is kind of working for me.

[Kunikos]

Canada, of course, has no racism.

LOL XD

[Backov]

I'd pay good money for some Tyler Durden style terrorism.

[MikeJ]

Ontario? I wonder what the reasoning was - Afghanistan?

Perhaps partially. It looks more like a "blame the West for everything wrong in the world".

The imam was worried that Toronto's Muslims were not sticking to scripture and were also becoming unmindful of the real problems in the world.

"Our Muslim brothers and sisters are dying in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechnya and other parts of the world," he had written at the time on his website.

"The puppet systems that are in power in the Islamic world are collaborating with the Crusaders and Zionists to keep the ummah [Muslim community] under oppression."

I wrote an article on the fatwa and quoted a more moderate Muslim leader as saying that the decree was "stupid." Mr. Abdelhaleem was stung by this. A few months later, he invited me over for tea and cookies, and we had a pleasant chat about religion in his Mississauga home.

It was in the basement that I met his son Shareef, and several of his friends, all young professionals eager to express their own views to a non-Muslim writer. They, too, were outraged by the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. And they wanted to discuss racial profiling.

They were all upset, but they never appeared extremist. Now, one year later, 30-year-old Shareef Abdelhaleem was chained to other suspects, his anxious eyes meeting his father's wounded gaze in court.

I love the idea that they were upset about racial profiling while at the same time planning a series of attacks.

[Charles]

Oh yeah. You get the feeling that even if this plot had succeeded, and hundreds were killed on Go trains or whatever, that the Toronto Star would still lead the next day with a big Antonia Zerbisias column about how the real problem in our society is Islamophobia.

Sheesh, the top story at the Star right now is about the Toronto police chief asking Muslims and non-Muslims to be calm in the wake of a couple of windows at a mosque apparently being broken in a "hate crime." Good thing the Star is focusing on the big picture!


I think it's more important to focus on preventing hate crimes in the media than hyping potential threats. It's more important to me that people feel welcome and at home in Canada than singled out and discriminated against.

And I lived next to the CN Tower, and worked two blocks over from the TSE.

But according to the Globe and Mail, the targets included political and economic symbols including the Parliament Buildings and Peace Tower in Ottawa, along with the CN Tower and Toronto Stock Exchange in Toronto.

[Squirrel Killer]

I love the idea that they were upset about racial profiling while at the same time planning a series of attacks.
I guess that carjacking scene in Crash wasn't so unbelievable after all.

[Robert Sharp]

Canada, of course, has no racism.

that reminds me. One of my wife's English teachers in college told her (and the class) that racism didn't exist in England. She meant that blacks were not victims of racism over there. It was pretty funny.

Of course, my point was more about American journalism than public views. I don't know enough about Canadian journalism to comment on it.

[Dave Markell]

Yeah, it's pretty disturbing that so many people seem more concerned about the backlash towards muslims than with the fact that the Canadian mosque where these guys were recruited from is spreading genocidal hatred, the RCMP has apparently identified at least two training camps in Ontario, and a racist cult is trying to murder large numbers of our citizens.

But yeah, I guess that's not important compared to some kids throwing rocks at a mosque.

My take: they both matter. They're the product of the same mindset. Obviously, the magnitude of the terror plot is far greater, and to claim the police can't find a connection between these guys is inanity of the first order. But there is reason to be concerned about retaliatory hate crimes. "Those who fight monsters must take care not to become monsters themselves," etc.

[Enidigm]

Sometimes i do get frustrated with the kid gloves Islamism seems to receive. It's one thing to protest/attack American intervention in the middle east as a Jordanian, Iraqi, ect. Another entirely for Canadian born citizens to do it - to Canada.

The similarities and differences between these Islamist conspiracies and the American immigration problem are i think worth noticing. Both groups migrated to their host countries in search of a better life. The ultimate debate in America is who pays for the immigrants, and whether it is fair that they come in underneath or around the established laws for immigration. Ultimately they want to be here to have a better life.

So what if there were a plot discovered in an hispanic neighborhood lead by hispanic gangs to hijack schoolbuses or plant bombs on freeways or otherwise lead to civil unrest until "all Mexican immigrants be given American citizenship".

What if these immigrants, instead of committing violence to get into the country, declared "America is BS we're going to tear it down for stealing MEXICAN land this is War!". Would we be as sympathetic as we are to native Islamist movements?

[Toddy]

My take: they both matter. They're the product of the same mindset. Obviously, the magnitude of the terror plot is far greater, and to claim the police can't find a connection between these guys is inanity of the first order. But there is reason to be concerned about retaliatory hate crimes. "Those who fight monsters must take care not to become monsters themselves," etc.

The thing is, though, what retaliatory hate crimes? Somebody broke some windows in a mosque. Yes, that's idiotic. But is it a hate crime? Is it indicative of any widespread problem? No. It's dumbass vandalism brought on by news of the arrests. Also, I don't see any cops in Ontario appealing for calm whenever a synagogue is desecrated, or a Jewish cemetery is trashed, both of which seem to be taking place relatively frequently the past few years.

I think there has to be more perspective shown. Even after 9/11, retaliatory acts against Muslims were very few and very far between in North America. Also, it's just bizarre that we're supposed to wring our hands about what a few rocks thrown by morons says about our society while simultaneously "understanding" why hundreds of thousands of Muslims needed to riot and murder people over some rude cartoons. If any society needs to examine its tolerance of religious minorities, well, it ain't ours.

[jpinard]

A list of those arrested has been released. All Muslim names, save one convert (er, sorry Muhammad, I mean revert) named Steve. According to what I've been reading in the Star, Mop and Pail, NYT, etc., the arrests came as the result of an ongoing sting operation by the RCMP and CSIS, and that this group was linked to others in the US and abroad. It seems like international police organizations were involved here.



The only similarities to Murrah involve the fertilizer apparently being used to make some massive bomb. Other than that, this is another, now-textbook example of Islamist jihadi activity. According to the stories coming out in today's papers, many of the arrested were linked to a Mississauga mosque where Qayyum Abdul Jamal, the oldest of the suspects at 43, spoke and was one of the leaders.

Gee, have we heard this story before?

And bringing up everything from the bank-robbing hippie-commie Weathermen to the Black Panthers is just ridiculous. Those groups operated for months at a time in very limited areas of the US. The Islamist movement is worldwide, has killed many thousands of people, and, as we've seen with these arrests, could strike just about anywhere on the planet.

Also, I don't see these radical Christian fundamentalists you mention doing much in the US these days other than wringing their hands over the moral calumny of calling Christmas "The Holidays." They'd better hurry up and start bombing a lot of your abortion clinics and gay clubs if they want to catch up with the Islamists! Just the Bali bombing alone killed more people than these Christian fundy groups have in the past, well, ever.

Excellent post Toddy.

[Jason McCullough]

Other than that, this is another, now-textbook example of Islamist jihadi activity.

What textbook is it that covers both radicalized citizens (tube bombing, this) and foreigners (9/11)? Actually asking here, I haven't heard them referred to as the same sort of thing, excepting "Islam is evil" goofiness.

Sometimes i do get frustrated with the kid gloves Islamism seems to receive.

In the United States, those kid gloves exist because of the mass insanity of the Nisei deportation; pretty important to avoid that. Not sure about Canada.

[MikeSofaer]

Actually asking here.You explicitly claim it's not a rhetorical question, I like that.

[Charles]

The thing is, though, what retaliatory hate crimes? Somebody broke some windows in a mosque. Yes, that's idiotic. But is it a hate crime? Is it indicative of any widespread problem? No. It's dumbass vandalism brought on by news of the arrests.

Hate crimes are crimes (such as violent crime, hate speech or vandalism) that are motivated by feelings of hostility against any identifiable group of people within a society.

How is it not a hate crime?

[Bill Dungsroman]

It's dumb crime!

[Toddy]

How is it not a hate crime?

"Hate crime" seems awfully grandiose for some rocks being tossed through some windows, once. Also, it just takes away from the real focus. I'd like to see more about why the "moderate" leaders of this Mississauga mosque continued to allow this Jamal guy to be involved with the place, to lead what other members are calling "aggressive" prayers on Fridays, to lead discussion groups, to take kids on camping trips, etc., even while they knew that he held strongly anti-Western views. Those comments from other members of the mosque are all over the papers today. So, hey, aren't these so-called moderates supposed to be speaking out about these crazies who profane Islam? Why did they let Jamal play such a key role in their mosque?

Also, it's fascinating that a Who's Who list of Canada's Islamist loons came out to the initial court hearing of the 17 arrested, including everyone's favorite representative of Canada's self-proclaimed "al Qaeda family," Zaynab Khadr. Incidentally, why haven't the Khadrs been deported or locked up already? It's sickening to see Zaynab walking around free, claiming all the rights of an Canadian citizen, after the hate she has trumpeted in the past, on national TV no less.

[Charles]

"Hate crime" seems awfully grandiose for some rocks being tossed through some windows, once. Also, it just takes away from the real focus.

I'm sorry, what's the real focus?

[Jason McCullough]

You explicitly claim it's not a rhetorical question, I like that.

I'm hoping there's another answer!

[Dr Fear]

Ontario? I wonder what the reasoning was - Afghanistan?

Here's another a different opinion (http://tks.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YTQ4M2YxZmYwMDdkYjg1MzgyZmYxODZhZmVhZmQzY2Y=).

The news of the Canadian arrests reinforces certain conclusions and a certain worldview:

* The view that al-Qaeda and its like-minded adherents are not motivated by any political cause that a Westerner could understand - gripes about Israel, or "economic exploitation", or foreign troops on Saudi soil, or Iraq. They just want to kill people who are different from them.

Also, this is interesting (http://varifrank.com/archives/2006/06/canada_17_more.php).

Two of the men arrested in Canada, now known as the "Canada 17" were arrested in Buffalo New York in August 13, 2005. What did they do? Oh, well they apparently were trying to smuggle handguns into Canada by taping them to their bodies.

[shift6]

How is it not a hate crime?
I dunno about that wiki definition. It includes "hate speech" as a hate crime. One thing I will believe until my dying day is that, unless it is a specific incitement to other crime, speech itself is never a crime. Ever. Ever.

[Toddy]

I'm sorry, what's the real focus?

Uh, possible terror plot, tons of fertilizer, possible terror training camps, links between CDN Islamists and US ones, radical quasi-imams preaching hate in Mississauga, "moderate" members of said Mississauga mosque ignoring this hate -- want more?

[Charles]

Uh, possible terror plot, tons of fertilizer, possible terror training camps, links between CDN Islamists and US ones, radical quasi-imams preaching hate in Mississauga, "moderate" members of said Mississauga mosque ignoring this hate -- want more?


How does any of that not make a hate crime a hate crime? Just because two parties are involved doesn't magically make one not.

[Toddy]

I just don't think breaking windows should automatically qualify as a hate crime. It seems an awfully petty act unworthy of a word like hate, that's all. Also, all this does is set up a smokescreen and allow apologists to move the focus onto supposed Islamophobia and set up the usual racial reasons why these young Muslims were apparently planning to murder people.

[Desslock]

My take: they both matter. They're the product of the same mindset

Sure, they "both matter", just like jaywalking matters and so does a hit and run - they're both product of the same mindset that traffic rules don't apply to you.

But it's FUCKING RETARDED and offensive after a hit and run accident for people to start bringing up incidents of jaywalking, replete with condescending platitudes and inane questions to public officials asking them how they are going to protect the victims of jaywalking instead of how they're going to track down and protect us from hit and run drivers.

These guys plotted to murder and maim a large number of innocent, defenceless people -- it's actually deranged to instead want to focus on a few kids soaping windows and putting toilet paper in the trees of a church/mosque, etc. - it's a moral equivalency death wish.

[Dave Markell]

Desslock, you're over-reacting and setting up strawmen. I agree with you that the terror plot is orders of magnitudes worse--in fact, I said so explicitly in the post you quote just one line from. I've also said (in a thread in P&R) that I don't believe that "hate crimes" should be treated differently by the criminal justice system than any other crimes. Kids who throw rocks through windows should receive the exact same treatment whether their motivation is boredom, stupidity, or racism. I did not say, and never will, "to focus on a few kids soaping windows." Calm down, take down the strawmen, and talk about the whole post.

[Desslock]

I agree with you that the terror plot is orders of magnitudes worse--in fact, I said so explicitly in the post you quote just one line from.

Dave, I just used that line in your post to seque into a related point - the reaction of the Canadian media (particularly the CBC), representatives of the muslim community and various other public commentators - not to challenge what you said, in particular (which I mostly agree with).

[Dave Markell]

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. Living in southern California, CBC doesn't make my must-see TV lineup that often. Sounds like things are--odd--up there right now.

[Charles]

These guys plotted to murder and maim

Oh come now. I'm sure they were hoping for murder exclusively.

[Robert Sharp]

Oh come now. I'm sure they were hoping for murder exclusively.

Actually, maiming is even more terrifying in some ways.

[Charles]

Actually, maiming is even more terrifying in some ways.


Yeah but if they were going for that they'd be trying to rig a very large bucket of acid, rather than an explosion.

[Jason McCullough]

Fear, "I think they just like to kill us" isn't an explanation, it's an assertion.

[Toddy]

While I agree with Desslock all around on this story, I would like to mention that the CBC isn't entirely out to lunch. The National ran a great feature on the apparent leader of this group, Jamal, the other night, that didn't get into window-breaking or the ol' "these individuals are perverting Islam" nonsense at all. I've gotta watch it tonight, though, to see what the CBC makes of the beheading Harper stuff that came out today.

Denial about the role of Islam in these sorts of, um, activities comes from all sources, all over the place. The usual liberal-conservative lines and motivations disappear when it comes to anything relating to Islam.

What is really annoying me nowis how some Americans are using this to bolster border arguments up north, to boost the idea of passports to cross into the US in 2008, and even building a fence or a wall. Sheesh. There are a lot of jihadis down south, too, folks. And a country with over 12 million illegal residents and a totally porous southern border doesn't get to criticize a neighbor over its immigration laws, m'kay?

[ambushbug]

ok...

[Destarius]

I dunno about that wiki definition. It includes "hate speech" as a hate crime. One thing I will believe until my dying day is that, unless it is a specific incitement to other crime, speech itself is never a crime. Ever. Ever.

Have you ever heard a hate speech?