Thank you, Tivo!

[Mark Asher]

Heard on the radio this morning that the head of CBS said the networks will likely move to in-show advertising as more people get Tivo and similar products and screen out commercials.

"Hey Hon, have you seen my Budweiser hat?"

"I think you left it on that new chair we bought on sale at Target."

"Oh yeah, that one I call the 'comfy chair' -- love those Target sales. What are the kids doing?"

"I think they're playing with their PlayStation 2, that new Madden Football game."

"Does Madden Football rock? Is it a game that rocks for them? I love it when they have a PlayStation 2 game that rocks. Then they leave me alone. Ok, I'm running out for a bit. What's for dinner tonight?"

"Let's just get Dominos. The kids say Dominos rocks. I think not having to cook dinner rocks."

I can't wait. This is progress! Thank you, Tivo!

[Anonymous]

I hardly think Tivo was responsible for this.

1) How many commercials does anyone actually watch? During commercial breaks people get up and use the bathroom, go to the kitchen, etcetera.

2) They'll still sell traditional advertising, so this is basically them creating 30 minutes of ad placement time in a half-hour show instead of 10. Ka-ching!

It was/is inevitable, though I think gratuitous commercial placement may be rejected by audiences. It has to be kinda subtle.

BTW, I do watch commercials I FF through, if something catches my eye. I've done it a number of times. And not just for gaming stuff.

[Mark Asher]

I think we all watch some of the ads on TV simply because there's no reason to get up most of the time. We don't need snack and bathroom breaks every 10 minutes. We're also passive when we watch TV, so we're more receptive to advertising. I'm sure the current ad prices factor in some viewers not paying attention to ads. They probably have some rule of thumb they follow: One million viewers = 700,000 viewers who actually watch a given ad, or something like that.

If Tivo devices do become more popular it probably will cause a downturn in ad viewing. I just hope the networks don't start charging for programming.

I just think it's ironic that a device that's supposed to enhance TV viewing may result in more obnoxious TV advertising that we can't avoid if we watch network TV.

[Anonymous]

"I hardly think Tivo was responsible for this."

Hello? As Mark said, the head of one of the major networks was just quoted as saying that Tivo IS responsible for this. Somehow I put a little more stock in his word on this situation than the ponderings of someone, no matter how witty and wise, outside of that industry (unless there's something you're not telling us, sahib)...

[Mark Asher]

It's not unlike the web, where advertising's a disaster but there's still some value. People don't view banner ads? The websites respond with pop-ups. People close pop-ups? We get pop-unders.

Here's the article the news story I heard was based on:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/07/16/entertainment/main515243.shtml

"The impact of digital video recorders on commercial television has so far been negligible, Moonves said, though he acknowledged that advertisers would eventually feel the pinch as TiVo and related services grow in popularity.

"And that, Moonves said, would drive the imperative for greater use of product placement, which he noted was highly visible in the recent hit film "Minority Report," directed by Steven Spielberg and starring Tom Cruise.

"If Steven Spielberg can do it, I guess we can do it," Moonves said. "You have to look at this source of revenue."

Moonves said Tivo hasn't had a negative effect yet. He also said that reality shows would be great for in-show placement. Give those Survivor contestants a case of frosty cold Budweiser and watch them gulp it down and tell us viewers how fabulous it is and really mean it. It would be effective.

[Tyjenks]

Might this mean no interruptions during the shows and possibly a 28 or 29 min. program?

I think most 30 min. shows have 22 actual mins. of program content.

[Mark Asher]

Oh no, they won't abandon the commercials they have now. You can bank on that. We'll have commercials plus product placement and, eventually I predict, the actors actually referring to various products by name. It will take them a while to condition us to the incessant shilling, but they'll get us there.

[Tyjenks]

UGH!! I hope you are wrong, but I doubt you are.

I assumed product placement would come eventually as the movies started a while back.

Maybe it will just be a graphic for some company framing the show, so we can see it all show long.

"Law and Order brought to you tonight by Playtex. Please visit our website after the show at www.Playtexwings.com as seen in the bottom right-hand corner of your screen beside the big red dot. Thank You, Period."

[JeffL]

I remember when VCRs were becoming common the same kind of statements were being made: people were going to record programs and skip the commercials, so they would have to find alternate advertising methods. Frankly, I'd bet it's just an excuse to justify more ways to get advertiser cash.

What REALLY annoys me is the perpetual little logos that now appear in the corner on every show on every network. WHY do I need to have a little peacock onscreen at all times to remind me I'm watching Law and Order on NBC? It drives my anal retentive self crazy to have that crap on the screen throughout a show or movie.

What I predict will eventually happen, since we just swallow whatever these toads at the networks throw at us: running banners at the bottom of the screen. Just a touch thrown in here and there at first, but eventually non-stop.

[Anonymous]

"What REALLY annoys me is the perpetual little logos that now appear in the corner on every show on every network. WHY do I need to have a little peacock onscreen at all times to remind me I'm watching Law and Order on NBC?"

I think that's their form of copy protection. If stuff -- movies, music videos, etc. -- is taped off of TV and someone tries to sell it, it can be traced back to its source.

I agree it SUX, tho. Especially when they try to tart the logos up with American flags in order to make their advertising logos look patriotic.

[Dave Long]

The worst thing about those logos is how they sometimes dance around or have to get "created" down there to draw your eye to them. If they want a watermark for copy protection, fine. But don't make it jump around at me to get my fucking attention!

--Dave

[Mark Asher]

I wouldn't be surprised at running banners.

"Stay tunded for Law and Order next, brought to you by Maxwell House Coffee. Good to the last drop!"

[Supertanker]

Something that Les "Not Watching the Ads is Stealing" Moonves forgets is that there are successful cable channels that have no ads, but they offer programming that people are willing to directly buy. I'm sure that HBO doesn't make as much money as CBS, but I don't watch any CBS shows while I watch several HBO shows. That's why HBO gets my $9 a month or whatever it is.

He also has thrown around the figure of $250 annually to get the same ad-supported programming you now get for "free" (not counting the cable bill, I guess). What Les forgets is that I don't watch most of that already, so my bill would not increase at all if more channels became premium services. Heck, it would go down since I would not buy CBS, TNT, Lifetime, etc., or at least not pay much more for addtional bandwidth wasting. The cable companies know that if the price gets too high, I'm dumping them.

Life to Les: your company is going to make less advertising money in the future - learn to deal with that instead of attacking the viewers for skipping the ads (which I'm sure Les does too).

[Mark Asher]

Something that Les "Not Watching the Ads is Stealing" Moonves forgets is that there are successful cable channels that have no ads, but they offer programming that people are willing to directly buy. I'm sure that HBO doesn't make as much money as CBS, but I don't watch any CBS shows while I watch several HBO shows. That's why HBO gets my $9 a month or whatever it is.

He also has thrown around the figure of $250 annually to get the same ad-supported programming you now get for "free" (not counting the cable bill, I guess). What Les forgets is that I don't watch most of that already, so my bill would not increase at all if more channels became premium services. Heck, it would go down since I would not buy CBS, TNT, Lifetime, etc., or at least not pay much more for addtional bandwidth wasting. The cable companies know that if the price gets too high, I'm dumping them.

Life to Les: your company is going to make less advertising money in the future - learn to deal with that instead of attacking the viewers for skipping the ads (which I'm sure Les does too).

I certainly won't cheer if network TV goes to a monthly subscription. That's not good. You say you wouldn't get it, Supertanker, but what about sports and local news, etc.?

As to cable, I wish I could just get HBO for $9 a month. Instead I'm reamed (or would be if I had cable) for $20 a month or so for just the basic crappy service. I think if I wanted HBO and decent cable, I'm looking at $40-50 a month. That's not good.

I like my free TV with the current level of advertising. I'll be disappointed if i have to start paying for it or get subjected to endless ads. Damn Evil Tivo!

[wumpus]

Moonves said Tivo hasn't had a negative effect yet.
Yeah! Down with TIVO! It's ruining television!

[Mark Asher]

Moonves said Tivo hasn't had a negative effect yet.
Yeah! Down with TIVO! It's ruining television!

Just don't use it to screen out ads and we may yet be saved, Wumpus.

[Anonymous]

Marketer's complain because ads just aren't making enough of an impact anymore. The problem is that there are SO MANY ADS that a single ads effect is so diluted. Everywhere I turn I'm deluged with them.

The solution?

MORE ads of course.

Jeez.

[Dirt]

What's really sucks is commercials at movie theatres. The theatre is making money from me and the advertisers. Win/Win for the theatres. I can't believe I'm actually paying them to watch commercials.

[Anonymous]

I read an article awhile back which stated that advertisers were pissed off at the networks because the networks have been steadily expanding the amount of ads broadcast, and cut back on programming time. Advertisers know that there is only so much we will absorb before tuning out. It's in the interest of the networks, however, to keep pushing against that limit.

Side note: when older TV shows like "Mary Tyler Moore" are broadcast today, entire scenes are cut out due to the fact that so many more commercials are shown per hour now as compared to when those programs were originally aired. Yet the networks & basic cable networks are dissing *US* for avoiding this barrage? We're getting played, people. Here's the article:

http://www.salon.com/ent/tv/feature/2001/07/17/tv_syndication/print.html

[Mark Asher]

I don't think there are more ads during prime time, but in the off hours (and maybe on cable channels) the rules are relaxed and they squeeze in more ads.

What I especially hate is how a lot of stations turn up the volume for their ads. A commercial comes on and it's like I'm being shouted at.

[wumpus]

What I especially hate is how a lot of stations turn up the volume for their ads. A commercial comes on and it's like I'm being shouted at.
You know what Mark hates even more than that? Paying for content.

Mark is like the Archie Bunker of the internet. He's always telling us how damn proud he is to be a cheap bastard, with plaid shorts pulled up way beyond the waist, knee-high white socks, and cigar firmly clenched in teeth.

[Supertanker]

I certainly won't cheer if network TV goes to a monthly subscription. That's not good. You say you wouldn't get it, Supertanker, but what about sports and local news, etc.?

No, though I admit I am a very unusual case. I have given up on local news in L.A.; it is just hyperbole. There isn't a couple of brush fires, this is The Summer of Fire (tm). There isn't a storm coming in, instead "We are on The StormTrack! (tm)" Those are actual examples. I also tire of the endless parade of evil and gore they use to lead the broadcasts. I especially hate the live broadcasts from the site of some past event.

I don't watch sports - I'm geek to the bone that way (unless you count racing, but I have Speed channel for that). I get two ESPNs, to FoxSports, and at least one other sports channel on my cable lineup, and I couldn't tell you what channels they are on. I would like to see some Tour de France coverage, so I should look that up.

I am harboring a likely incorrect fantasy about what pay network TV would be like. I won't get any choice in what channels I buy - I will either buy the entire $80 bundle of channels, or I will have nothing. Maybe the satellite guys will let me pick and choose a little more, but I doubt it.

[wumpus]

Micropayments? I don't know why, I just felt like saying that.

[Anonymous]

Because it rhymes with "micropenis?"

[Sparky]

What I especially hate is how a lot of stations turn up the volume for their ads...

Almost all ads have a higher volume level -- in fact, this is how TVs that auto-mute commercials work, as well as VCRS that auto-FF through commercials. Both have been available for ten years now. In fact, far more people have these devices than have DVRs. Why isn't anyone complaining about them?

And lets not use "Tivo" to stand for "DVR"...Tivo is just a brand of DVR. Their strategy all along has been to work *with* the networks (NBC and Disney/ABC, among others, are investors) because they realize how threatening DVRs must seem, and that going against the content providers could kill a growing technology. Tivo does NOT let you erase/not record commercials -- you can only fast forward through them, just like a videotape.

Sonicblue, on the other hand, is the "rebel" DVR -- they allow you to record shows without commercials. And they are the ones stirring up most of the current DVR fuss (and getting lots of PR out of it).

[Ron Dulin]

"The theatre is making money from me and the advertisers."

The theater isn't getting much of your money. Unless you're seeing films long after they've been released, that is.

http://money.cnn.com/2002/03/08/smbusiness/q_movies/

[Murph]

Nah, the theaters are getting their money off of the $3.00 bags of candy they sell.

[Mark Asher]

"Almost all ads have a higher volume level -- in fact, this is how TVs that auto-mute commercials work, as well as VCRS that auto-FF through commercials. Both have been available for ten years now. In fact, far more people have these devices than have DVRs. Why isn't anyone complaining about them?"

Never heard of those. I don't know why the networks aren't upset by them, unless it's just that they don't have any data to show that these devices result in unwatched commercials.

Maybe this is just the beginning of a network PR campaign to get us to accept more product placements in TV shows.

[Mark Asher]

Nah, the theaters are getting their money off of the $3.00 bags of candy they sell.

Hence, the multiplexes. You can also see why drive-ins struggle. People bring their own food and drinks.

[Dave Long]

I would like to see some Tour de France coverage, so I should look that up.

I think it's on OLN, the Outdoor Life Network. It has been the last couple years at least. Bob Varsha even did the coverage. (Supes will know who this is...)

On a another racing related note, it's been a week or so now, but RIP John Frankenheimer.

--Dave

[JeffL]

Maybe this is just the beginning of a network PR campaign to get us to accept more product placements in TV shows.

Don't know, but I'd be willing to bet it is precisely that. The networks are struggling financially, not because of TIVOs, but because of the 22.5 gazillion channels (read: options) out there (even though we scan through all of our DirectTV channels 4 or 5 times hoping we'll find something to watch.) The network news is an irrelevant joke - there's speculation as to which network will be the first to drop it, since most people go to CNN, Foxnews, MSNBC, etc. for news throughout the day. The folks in charge of programming don't seem to have a clue as to the pulse of the audiences they're trying to capture, and the pressure on a show to deliver "numbers" results in quality shows being killed fairly quickly if they don't bring in Friends-like ratings.

Again, my knowledge of the TV industry is negligible, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if this flap was a smoke screen to justify methods of obtaining more advertiser cash.

[Anonymous]

I'm not surprised it's CBS that's making this statement on product placement. If you've watched "Survivor," which airs on CBS, you'll see nonsensical sights like starving people who have been living on little but tightly-rationed corn mush for weeks being offered the chance at a wonderful meal of Mountain Dew, Snickers bars, and Triple-Cheese Nacho Flavored Doritos, or the chance to drink all of the cans of Bud Light they want. Offering junk food and cheap beer to starving people is pretty sick; at least they had the honesty to show some of the people puking up their Doritos after one of those "prizes."

I suppose the idea is supposed to be "if starving people like Mountain Dew, who am I to refuse?"

[wumpus]

Maybe this is just the beginning of a network PR campaign to get us to accept more product placements in TV shows.
No, it's because Tivo is destroying television as we know it.

[Murph]

No, it's because Tivo is destroying television as we know it.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[Supertanker]

I forgot to post this at the time, but it is a story from Mulitchannel Online about a panel of TV industry types on the impact of DVRs. Since the site requires registration, I'll just cut & paste:

Cable, Sponsors Must Adapt to DVDs, DVRs
Multichannel News
7/17/2002 2:00:00 PM
Boston -- Cable-network, MSO, advertiser and agency executives need to learn to adapt as technologies like video-on-demand and digital-video recorders explode.

So said speakers during the panel, 'Advertising and Marketing in a Changing Digital World' at the Cable & Telecommunications Association for Marketing’s CTAM Summit here Tuesday afternoon.

Moderator Josh Bernoff, principal analyst for Forrester Research Inc., set the stage by estimating that the 4 million households now able to get VOD and the 1 million DVR homes would surge five years hence to 36 million and 46 million, respectively.

SONICblue Inc. CEO Ken Potashner estimated that one-half of all U.S. TV households will have DVRs within 'three to five years.'

In Bernoff’s view, this means, 'The 30-second commercial will never be the same.'

But Starcom MediaVest Group president Rishad Tobaccowala begged to differ. 'The 30-second commercial is not going to go away,' he said. 'Even in five years, it’s not going to be an all-DVR-driven world.'

Charter Communications Inc. executive vice president David Barford said his MSO’s set-tops with VOD, DVR and home-networking capabilities won’t be that deeply penetrated until the box cost goes under $600.

The panelists felt that advertising won’t go away, but to truly reach consumers in VOD and DVR homes, it will have to become more compelling.

Nielsen Media Research CEO Susan Whiting said the researcher has software on every TiVo Inc. box.

But questions -- like those involving whether Nielsen should count viewership at airdate or when a program is played back, and the length of time researchers should wait for those data to come in -- abound. 'Do we wait a week, two weeks?' she asked, noting that there’s no consensus on that point among networks and ad buyers.

Meanwhile, Rainbow Media Holdings Inc. CEO Josh Sapan -- whose 'Mag Rack' VOD package has a commitment from Insight Communications Co. Inc. -- felt that 'there should be on-demand brands' for that space alone, which 'lives only on the server, not the TV.'

At a subsequent briefing, Sapan said the first Insight launch is due within 30 days, with others to be added 'over a period of years.'

[Mark Asher]

I wonder why they think DVR will reach 50% penetration in 5 years or so? I guess if it's bundled with the Xbox and PS3 it might, but is it really that compelling of a product? Are people so hot for TV that they want to record a lot of TV shows? We've had VCRs for years and years and we hardly ever recorded any TV shows or movies.

[mtkafka]

I dont think we'll be seeing anything out of TIVO or DVR or other recording devices. Well, I dont think we'll be seeing a VCR type revolution anytime soon. Its because the tech industry is just low right now. What with digital cable not being big with subscribers and less than 10% of cable subscribers on broadband... doesnt look like itll happen anytime soon is all I mean.

etc

[Ben Sones]

As Mark said, the head of one of the major networks was just quoted as saying that Tivo IS responsible for this. Somehow I put a little more stock in his word on this situation than the ponderings of someone, no matter how witty and wise, outside of that industry (unless there's something you're not telling us, sahib)...

They blame it on Tivo, because recording devices are the networks' favorite whipping boys (before Tivo, they made similar complaints about VCRs). But the truth is that even without Tivo, people don't watch commercials if they don't want to watch commercials. They get up and go to the bathroom, or get a snack, or (if you are my wife) mute the TV. So whatever the TV execs think, Tivo is not the cause of all their woes--bad commercials are. The best commercials always have been and still are are the ones that you want to watch, because they provide entertainment in their own right. Even with a Tivo, I still watch some commercials, simply because I like them.

TNN has started testing "popup" ads, BTW. I saw one the other day, and it's quite frankly the most annoying thing I've ever seen. A graphic pops up over the bottom of the screen during the broadcast, and the broadcast sound cuts out and is replaced by the ad spiel. The one that I saw happened to pop up during a critical bit of dialog in the program I was watching. If TNN starts using these regularly, I'll never watch anything on that network again.

[Ben Sones]

Tivo does NOT let you erase/not record commercials -- you can only fast forward through them, just like a videotape.

It does let you instantly skip them, however, with a handy (but undocumented and unsupported) backdoor code that allows you to automatically skip forward in 30 second leaps. They will never officially support that, of course, because it would send TV networks into paroxysms of anger. But it's there.

Check out:

http://tivo.samba.org/index.cgi?req=show&file=faq04.025.htp

[Ben Sones]

The folks in charge of programming don't seem to have a clue as to the pulse of the audiences they're trying to capture, and the pressure on a show to deliver "numbers" results in quality shows being killed fairly quickly if they don't bring in Friends-like ratings.

The irony is that many highly successful shows do not take off right away. Under the current climate at networks, shows such as Cheers and Mary Tylor Moore never would have made it past the first pilot run, because neither of those shows did much in the ratings until the second season (at which point both became mega-blockbusters).


I guess if it's bundled with the Xbox and PS3 it might, but is it really that compelling of a product? Are people so hot for TV that they want to record a lot of TV shows?

Let me guess: you don't have one? If companies like Tivo can find a way to effectively convey how incredibly useful DVR's are--even to people that don't watch much TV--they will have it made. So far they haven't done that, and it's too bad. It really does change the way you watch TV (for the better). I wouldn't want to go without my Tivo any more than I would want to go without a volume control. I was watching the news at my wife's parents' house last weekend, and saw something funny. I almost reached for the remote to rewind it so I could call my wife in to see it, but then remembered that her parents' don't have a Tivo. It's funny how quickly you get used to being able to do that.

And for my money, it's even better for people that don't watch a lot of television. I don't typically plan my time around TV schedules (with the exception of one or two shows), so when I do watch TV I usually watch whatever happens to be on. But since Tivo automatically grabs all the shows that I like, "whatever happens to be on" is now always something good.

[asspennies]

I wonder why they think DVR will reach 50% penetration in 5 years or so? I guess if it's bundled with the Xbox and PS3 it might, but is it really that compelling of a product? Are people so hot for TV that they want to record a lot of TV shows? We've had VCRs for years and years and we hardly ever recorded any TV shows or movies.
If anyone (including you, Mark) gives TiVo a serious look, they will be convinced. It really is the best way to watch television. It only seems idiotic and pointless if you've never actually used the product.

It's not simply the ability to record tv shows for posterity's sake, which is solely what the VCR is for. The Tivo allows instant access to what it has recorded and saved, and thus becomes the ultimate in personal scheduling. You essentially get to schedule your own "network" - only playing what you want to see, when you want to see it. I know, you've heard this before. It really is something to get excited over.

It also can pause live TV, and rewind live TV. You won't think this is useless once you try it. How many times have you missed a line, or had to go to the bathroom, or answer the phone or the door at the worst moment? You'll never have this problem with Tivo.

I don't want to sound like a total Tivo shill, even though I'm certainly coming off that way. The point is that DVRs are not simply expensive toys that don't get much use beyond the simplistic substitution for VCRs. They are an entirely new and improved way of utilizing the television. I know that for me, personally, I would never go back to not using a DVR. They are collectively too useful.

I think most people who use DVRs have this opinion. So you have a guaranteed market already installed, that (on average) will simply grow larger and larger and never diminish. With that sort of growth, it may very well be that DVRs will have 50% penetration, or close to it, in a few years.

[DennyA]

Mark,

You have to experience Tivo. It's not that you "tape" more shows. Its that you program in the shows you want to watch and you NEVER again just watch "the best thing that's on right now." And you time-delay the start of programs so you can skip through the commercials. Sitcoms take 20 minutes to watch, hour-long shows about 40.

We don't watch more TV with Tivo. But we no longer watch crap just because we feel like vegging for a few in front of the idiot box. We're now always watching shows we enjoy.

[Sparky]

It does let you instantly skip them, however, with a handy (but undocumented and unsupported) backdoor code

Yeah, I've had that enabled for awhile.

Mark, get a Tivo, use it for 30 days and then return it if you don't like it. I bet you won't want to return it, though...

[Aleck]

If anyone (including you, Mark) gives TiVo a serious look, they will be convinced. It really is the best way to watch television. It only seems idiotic and pointless if you've never actually used the product.

My fiance harangued me when I insisted on getting my ReplayTV (which I like better than Tivo, since they *do* support skipping commercials and the like without any backdoors and, until recently, didn't even offer a subscription based model -- you bought the box, it worked, no more fuss). She said time and again "why the hell do we need that? I've already got a VCR...."

When the hard drive in mine fried recently (still under warranty -- just sent it back and got a new one in the mail) she was distraught. "Damnit, there's *never* anything worth watching on TV!"

DVRs completely change the way you watch television -- and for the better. I watch *less* TV now than I did before I got the ReplayTV, but I enjoy my time in front of the tube much more. Instead of 500 channels and nothing to watch, you have a library of recorded programming that you can watch at your leisure. It's absolutely wonderful, and it's what video on demand should have been ten years ago; instead we got crappy pay per view.

As for this killing the networks, I didn't know CBS was even on the air anymore.... :wink: What is killing the networks isn't DVRs -- it's poor quality programming, a cornucopia of choices via cable and satellite, and diminishing ad revenues in a souring economy. This is also why they're dragging their feet on getting into digital TV, which would solve many of these problems by allowing networks greater control over how you watch their shows.

The 50% penetration figure for DVRs is complete BS, though. None of the DVR makers have figured out how to market this wonderful device in a compelling way. I got mine because I was a geek, rather than because of any good marketing. When and if they figure out how to tell people about these things, people will buy them. And what you'll see are ads placed by the DVRs (if I pause something for too long, I get ads for SonicBlue Rio players and the like) rather than the networks.

[Mark Asher]

"If companies like Tivo can find a way to effectively convey how incredibly useful DVR's are--even to people that don't watch much TV--they will have it made. So far they haven't done that, and it's too bad. It really does change the way you watch TV (for the better)."

I guess my problem is that there's not much on TV I want to watch. I don't get cable so I only have network TV. There isn't a single series I go out of my way to watch. There isn't a single hour-long drama I want to watch. Other than those, I just like to watch sports and the news now and then. I even dislike all the SF series that I would have eaten up when younger. I never saw a single episode of Babylon 5, for example. I'm not saying this in any snobbish way, but I just don't watch much TV because after a lifetime of watching, it doesn't interest me all that much anymore.

If I had a DVR I'd record The Simpsons, King of the Hill, and maybe Seinfeld re-runs. I'd probably record some movies, but the networks don't show many. I guess I can see some value in that. How much do DVRs cost, anyway? Are they down to DVD player prices, like $200? And do you also have to pay a monthly fee?

[GregB]

Another thing TIVO has allowed my wife and I to do is revisit old TV series that we liked when we were younger (or were too young to care about watching). On Bravo (or A&E, I can't remember which) they were showing all the episodes of Hill Street Blues - one episode per day five days a week. It was airing at something like 4PM. TIVO would record it and that night, we'd watch the episode. Or we'd cue up a few and watch them on the weekend. We got through the whole run of the series and it was really fun seeing how the show changed and matured over the years.

It's conceivable that we could have used a VCR to do it, but I remember we tried that very thing when Babylon 5 was airing on TNT(?) every day. We kept forgetting to get new tape, turning off the VCR (so it would record correctly?). We gave up after about 10 episodes. I love DVRs and don't think I'll ever go back to tape. And now that we have a baby daughter, being able to find something good to watch at any hour has proven to be a godsend.

[Aleck]

If I had a DVR I'd record The Simpsons, King of the Hill, and maybe Seinfeld re-runs. I'd probably record some movies, but the networks don't show many. I guess I can see some value in that. How much do DVRs cost, anyway? Are they down to DVD player prices, like $200? And do you also have to pay a monthly fee?

The price points on DVRs are still way out of whack, since they haven't hit the mass market. An "inexpensive" DVR is $300+. Those inexpensive DVRs require you to pay either a $10/mo. subscription or a $200-$250 lifetime subscription fee -- effectively doubling the cost of the unit. When/if they hit the mass market, expect the price to drop significantly (akin to CDRWs when they first came out).

If you just want a DVR for casual use, pick one up off ebay. A lot of people are ditching their old DVRs for the new generation (which supports broadband and all kinds of whiz-bang stuff) so the old "telephone updated" DVRs are relatively inexpensive. uBid was also selling the Panasonic Showstoppers (replayTVs) for dirt cheap a few months back.

Also, one thing to keep in mind -- within each series of DVRs they sell a bunch of different units with different recording capacities. The *only* different between them is the size of the hard drive inside, and you can upgrade those hard drives pretty easily (there are PC-based utilities that appropriately format and transfer data to the drives). Hence, the el-cheapo way to go is to buy the cheapest model in a series and a big hard drive -- you immediately have the equivalent of a unit that would have cost you several hundred dollars more.

Of course, the super el-cheapo way to go is to record stuff on to your computer using a geforce 2 all-in-wonder type card -- again, uBid's got them for dirt cheap ($80 for the cards, including TV plug in box, cables, and remote control).

[DennyA]

Yeah, my 78 hour Tivo started life as a $99 14-hour before I transplanted in a Maxtor drive as slave. I've heard of some folks hitting the 200-hour range now. That's just insane, of course, but you could do something fun like having EVERY Simpsons episode archived for instant watching.

As for the computer solution, it's not comparable. One of the reasons that Tivo rocks is that it's SO easy to set up season passes and to have the recorder intelligently grab your shows, so that using it is a no-brainer. The current ATI and Nvidia software setups are more like a VCR that lets you use an electronic program guide to set up your recordings. They don't have season passes, wishlists, and all that other fun stuff.

I did build a system using old parts and an ATI All-in-Wonder Radeon as a video recorder/TV for my office. I like it for what it is, but it's NO substitute for a Tivo. The one advantage it has is that I can save programs in MPEG format, so I can transfer them to Pocket PCs or my laptop for viewing on the road.

By the way, I was a theoretical ReplayTV fan before I finally made a DVR purchase. But Tivo's software setup is nicer, and ReplayTV is doing stuff that's risking the ire of having its service shut down by the all-powerful Hollywood lobby. So I felt safer going Tivo. ReplayTV has some really neat features, such as the networking capabilities, but overall I think Tivo's interface and business viability is better. (And considering "Tivo" has already become the Xerox/Kleenex moniker for PVRs...)

[Mark Asher]

Why do you need to pay a monthly fee just to record stuff on TV? I don't get that part. Does the Tivo need to be reprogrammed all the time or something? Can't you just tell it to record channel 4 from 7:30-8:00 on Thursday night?

[DennyA]

The whole key to Tivo is that you don't record by time, you record by program. You just look up the show you want and select it, and you can either choose a specific showing to record, or do a season pass and it'll record it every time it's on. (There are further options, such as record first showings only and skip reruns, etc.) So no hassling with times and dates. 90% of our recording is automatic, so we never have to set anything. The other 10% is mostly movies.

The fee is for the subscription to the program guide service, which calls in nightly and downloads listings for the next 10 days.

[Sparky]

Why do you need to pay a monthly fee just to record stuff on TV? I don't get that part. Does the Tivo need to be reprogrammed all the time or something?

The fee is for the guide service and software updates. The guide data is basically an online TV Guide, with show times, descriptions, etc. But these are *searchable*, so you can ask Tivo to find a certain show, or all shows with a certain actor (or director, subject, by type of show, etc.) and set up Wishlists. No, it doesn't need to be reprogrammed all the time...it fetches new guide data every few days (it gets 12 days of show data in advance). The guide also provides suggestions based on shows you've previously recorded. This doesn't work perfectly (any more than Amazon's book suggestions), but it has found lots of shows I would have otherwise never known about.


Can't you just tell it to record channel 4 from 7:30-8:00 on Thursday night?
Yes, you can use Tivo without the service -- then it becomes just a VCR with a hard drive. But it wouldn't be nearly as useful. However, if you don't have cable or satellite, Tivo probably wouldn't be all that useful to you. I'd suggest a DirectTivo -- if you aren't a DirectTV subscriber already, the DTivo is $99, the DirectTV service is about $30/month, DirectTivo Guide service is only $9.95 a month instead of the usual $12.95 (DirectTV is subsidizing it). You can also watch one show while recording another with the DirectTivo, which is nice.

[Aleck]

Yeah, my 78 hour Tivo started life as a $99 14-hour before I transplanted in a Maxtor drive as slave. I've heard of some folks hitting the 200-hour range now. That's just insane, of course, but you could do something fun like having EVERY Simpsons episode archived for instant watching.

Yeah. My 120 hr. replayTV (which inevitably has about 60 hours of free space and on which I've archived programs for almost 18 months!) started life as a 20 hour unit. Gotta love cheap hard drives....


As for the computer solution, it's not comparable. One of the reasons that Tivo rocks is that it's SO easy to set up season passes and to have the recorder intelligently grab your shows, so that using it is a no-brainer. The current ATI and Nvidia software setups are more like a VCR that lets you use an electronic program guide to set up your recordings. They don't have season passes, wishlists, and all that other fun stuff.

I've actually gotten to like my computer-based solution in recent months. I've got my PC set up with a remote and net connection, so I have the functionality of the "myreplaytv.com" site (where you can program your replaytv via a web browser) from anywhere on the Internet. It's pretty neat. On the other hand, it's not nearly as feature-rich as the Tivo or the ReplayTV, which means that it's not a substitute by any stretch. OTOH, I have real time updated program guides and recording options (which was nice -- I recorded Trafficante's being removed from the House last night while I was stuck at the office!) My understanding is that both ReplayTV and Tivo are looking at providing this kind of functionality in the near future.

One other thing I like about my setup is that I have an external firewire drive that I record programs to; it makes it very easy to haul stuff to a friend. Of course, unless they have a computer hooked up to the TV, they have to watch it on-screen, which is never fun.


By the way, I was a theoretical ReplayTV fan before I finally made a DVR purchase. But Tivo's software setup is nicer, and ReplayTV is doing stuff that's risking the ire of having its service shut down by the all-powerful Hollywood lobby. So I felt safer going Tivo. ReplayTV has some really neat features, such as the networking capabilities, but overall I think Tivo's interface and business viability is better. (And considering "Tivo" has already become the Xerox/Kleenex moniker for PVRs...)

I agree re: the dangers ReplayTV is facing -- however, they've managed to kick the bejeezus out of the entertainment industry in three court cases so far, so don't count them out! I think Tivo has a much more user-friendly setup -- but it's also a more limited setup and one what I personally didn't take to. For a first time user, the Tivo will be easier, but they're both at about the same level of complexity as setting up a new iMac. If you can handle plugging all the hardware into the right places, you can definitely handle the software setup for either unit!

One thing I'd love to see is a more advanced interface for more advanced users... You have some of that functionality via myreplaytv.com, but it would be nice to have more advanced options available without resorting to either backdoor codes or using the website.

The new Tivos are networked, from what I've heard, so maybe I'll look at one of those for my next box. I just love that ReplayTV has stood up to those bastards at the networks in favor of consumers... Call me an idealist. :)

If only there was a non-brand term for Tivos/ReplayTVs that rolled off the tongue like Tivo does... DVR just ain't doing it for me.

[Ben Sones]

Yeah, the Tivo service is one of the #1 reasons to own one, no question. If I wanted to record the Simpsons on a VCR, I'd have to program it to record at a specific time for each show that I want to catch. On the Tivo, I just "Season Pass" the show and the Tivo records it whenever the show happens to come on, with no further input from me. You can rank your Season Passes, so if you get a conflict (two SP shows come on at the same time) it will know which one to pick.

Because of the service, the Tivo is "smart"--it knows what you are watching. If you are fifteen minutes into a show and decide that you want to record it, you just hit the record button and the Tivo automatically records the show, stopping when it's over. It will even save the part of the show that you have already watched (as long as it doesn't extend beyond your half-hour cache). Recording a show that you see coming up in the program listing is just as easy--just hit the record button, and Tivo handles the details.

They have some other, more experimental stuff that they have tried. One idea that I like is "smart commercials." A commercial for a show comes on, and you say to yourself "I'd like to see that." Just hit the record button during the commercial, and the Tivo will remember to record that show when it comes on. They have only done it with a few shows (the commercial has to send a signal to the Tivo, so it doesn't work with just any commercial), but it's neat.

Aside from the service, it's still better than a VCR, though. I have grown very used to being able to pause and rewind live TV.

[Lurker]

Pausing live TV sounds cool, but does anyone else think that commercial with the guy who paused the Superbowl while watching it live was really silly? Would you really pause a football game and then continue to watch it seconds or minutes behind the real stream?

[Ben Sones]

Sure, why not? Better than missing something good. Typically I catch up with the live stream during commercials (although the Superbowl would be an exception--I always watch the commercials during the Superbowl).