Marches may mark rise in Latino power

[Zarathustra]

HOUSTON, Texas (Reuters) -- Massive street marches to protest a proposed crackdown on illegal immigration have energized U.S. Hispanics and may signal a new day of Hispanic political involvement.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/11/immigration.power.reut/index.html

Yeah, so millions of people from a foriegn country enter illegally and it's a surprise that political power is going to shift? These people already have a country where they wield political power, and it's a total cock-up. For every 100,000 new "citizens" there will be one or two ambitious men to run for office, and they'll be elected. I predict in 10 years, our new countrymen will use this power to open the border completely. Don't scoff--they have enough power today to get their way with our immigration laws.

From now on, all my posts will be in Spanish.

[Ed Solomon]

HOUSTON, Texas (Reuters) -- Massive street marches to protest a proposed crackdown on illegal immigration have energized U.S. Hispanics and may signal a new day of Hispanic political involvement.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/11/immigration.power.reut/index.html

Yeah, so millions of people from a foriegn country enter illegally and it's a surprise that political power is going to shift? These people already have a country where they woeld political power, and it's a total cock-up. For every 100,000 new "citizens" there will be one or two ambitious men to run for office, and they'll be elected. I predict in 10 years, our new countrymen will use this power to open the border completely. Don't scoff--they have enough power today to get their way with our immigration laws.

From now on, all my posts will be in Spanish.I'm guessing you're not a native Houstonian.

[Zarathustra]

Native to the Houston area.

[Ed Solomon]

Shouldn't that be "Yo estoy de Houston?"

[Zarathustra]

Si....

[Lunch of Kong]

A buddy spent over two years trying to get citizenship for his wife. He says it was a very time consuming process.

There are a few INS processing centers scattered around the United States. The largest and slowest (because they are swamped) is in Dallas. It used to be housed in a high-rise building, but they had to move to a single story warehouse. The weight of the paper they were processing was compromising the structural integrity of the highrise.

[Ed Solomon]

See Zar, as a Pearlandero, I don't get all the "oh my God, there are Hispanics here" going on regarding the immigration debate. In fifty years, the rest of the country may have the same percentage of Hispanics as we have in Texas right now. So what? Last I checked, whatever problems we have in Texas are the Baptists' fault, not the Hispanics'.

[Jason McCullough]

Don't scoff--they have enough power today to get their way with our immigration laws.

Seriously, think about this - how do you think we got the current laws and "enforcement" we have? It sure as fuck wasn't a bunch of immigrants who very rarely vote agitating for them. Take it up with your capitalist overlords.

[Joel]

No Irish!

[Moore]

Meh, I'm in Socal. No change expected. Northern areas- get uninsured motorist insurance. That is basically the only issue I personally have w/ illegal immigrants: that they drive..

Our cars have been hit 4 times by illegals with no insurance, last time , drunk ones, who just ran and left their car and their elderly passenger who was hurt. That one is going to insurance. The last 3 paid to fix our cars out of pocket and we didnt call the cops (who cant and wont help anyways, but they do still make people nervous I guess)

So yeah, get some uninsured motorist insurance and you are all set.

[Rimbo]

Hispanics are mostly good Catholics, anyhow.

[Zarathustra]

See Zar, as a Pearlandero, I don't get all the "oh my God, there are Hispanics here" going on regarding the immigration debate. In fifty years, the rest of the country may have the same percentage of Hispanics as we have in Texas right now. So what? Last I checked, whatever problems we have in Texas are the Baptists' fault, not the Hispanics'.

I'm in Pearland too, :)

I'm not alarmed about living with Hispanics, not at all. My girlfriend is Hispanic. I am concerned about the shift in demographics. A country that cannot control its border is not much of a country.

[Zarathustra]

Seriously, think about this - how do you think we got the current laws and "enforcement" we have? It sure as fuck wasn't a bunch of immigrants who very rarely vote agitating for them. Take it up with your capitalist overlords.

Yes, I agree with you in part; businesses who hire illegals and vote-grubbing Democrats who forsee future nanny state constituents share the blame for this mess.

[Ed Solomon]

Yes, I agree with you in part; businesses who hire illegals and vote-grubbing Democrats who forsee future nanny state constituents share the blame for this mess.
What? I hate to crush a fellow Pearlander, but are you high? What mess? Millions of hard-working, honest, young people who work cheap? Europe, China and Japan wish they had a mess like that.

You want to blame someone for the porous border, blame the Republicans for lacking the cajones to crack down on businesses hiring illegals after Reagan passed the amnesty law in the 80's.

[Jake Plane]

Here's an issue I agree with Bush on (somewhat).

People are going to come to this country illegally - and that's going to continue as long as:

A. Things in their country suck.
B. Things here look better by comparison.
C. Given proximity and/or costs, why not give it a try to give it a go, here?

Soooooo... if it's a given that people are going to try to keep coming, what should we do?

1. Beef up border security certainly. I'm pro-fence. Yeah, it may not look pretty, but in the post 9/11 world, it actually is a significant problem (immigration and wage issues aside) that our border is so porous.

2. But what about the people that ALREADY made it? Well, if they're here and are working, and want to pay taxes, and want to pay a penalty on top of that, and want to make themselves eligible for the draft, then that's fine by me.

Bottomline - we should do our best to STOP illegal immigrants. But once they're here, they should pay for the privilege.

[Jason McCullough]

....vote-grubbing Democrats who forsee future nanny state constituents

Oh, please. This is the illegal labor employer's mess. Please provide some evidence for your long-run conspiracy theory that Democrats have made it easier to illegally immigrate because maybe 30 years after someone immigrates they might vote for a Democrat.

[Nick Walter]

Here's an issue I agree with Bush on (somewhat).

People are going to come to this country illegally - and that's going to continue as long as:

A. Things in their country suck.
B. Things here look better by comparison.
C. Given proximity and/or costs, why not give it a try to give it a go, here?

Soooooo... if it's a given that people are going to try to keep coming, what should we do?

1. Beef up border security certainly. I'm pro-fence. Yeah, it may not look pretty, but in the post 9/11 world, it actually is a significant problem (immigration and wage issues aside) that our border is so porous.

2. But what about the people that ALREADY made it? Well, if they're here and are working, and want to pay taxes, and want to pay a penalty on top of that, and want to make themselves eligible for the draft, then that's fine by me.

Bottomline - we should do our best to STOP illegal immigrants. But once they're here, they should pay for the privilege.

I'm with you on this one, but I don't buy into the fence idea for purely pragmatic purposes. Considering all the other hurdles and dangers to an illegal border crossing, a fence seems like a laughable afterthought. It's sort of like putting a stop sign in the middle of a mine field to slow traffic.

What I do think would slow immigration is to shrink the number of employers who are willing to employ illegals. Mind you, I'm no utopian optimist who thinks that will stop illegal immigration, but it ought to slow it.

[Jake Plane]

Oh, please. This is the illegal labor employer's mess. Please provide some evidence for your long-run conspiracy theory that Democrats have made it easier to illegally immigrate because maybe 30 years after someone immigrates they might vote for a Democrat.

Just to pile on Jason's point, the Latino vote in California prior to proposition 187 (for those who remember when that was in the news back in the 90s), while Democratic leaning was definitely up for grabs. It was only when California's governor (Pete Wilson) began to campaign on it that California shifted from an up-for-grab state to a solid blue one.

Similarly, Bush in 2004 made significant inroads in regards the Hispanic vote (up 9 points from 2000). Kerry still won it (53 percent) but his lead over Bush was in the single digits (Bush garnered 44 percent).

[Rimbo]

As I said, a lot of these folks are good Catholics. The Republicans' "Family Values" sales pitch resonates well with 'em.

I don't see the Democrats getting the big boon they think they'll get from this.

[Matthew Gallant]

Hispanics are mostly good Catholics, anyhow.
No, I've seen 'em; they're all going to church.

[Ben]

Doesn't amnesty pretty much solve all the "get social services for free" and "crash into Moore's car without insurance" problems? The demographic sliding brownward is not, by itself, a problem.

Also, For every 100,000 new "citizens" there will be one or two ambitious men to run for office, and they'll be elected. I predict in 10 years, our new countrymen will use this power to open the border completely. Don't scoff--they have enough power today to get their way with our immigration laws.


Zara, once "they" run for and win office, they become "us".

[Rimbo]

Zara, once "they" run for and win office, they become "us".

Does that make me a whiny lie-beral if I think that "they" alread is "us?" I mean, Hispanics aren't even a different race from whites.

[Ben]

I was being generous and assuming Zara was using "Mexicans" and "Americans" as "them" and "us". There is an alternate interpretation.

[Rimbo]

"you people" -- H Ross Perot

[MikeJ]

It used to be housed in a high-rise building, but they had to move to a single story warehouse. The weight of the paper they were processing was compromising the structural integrity of the highrise.

At my school, they had a rumour that library was slowly sinking becuase the designers forgot to account for the weight of the books. Seems about as likely 'paper is too heavy for the office tower' story. Unless, of course, the paper is made of depleted uranium...

[Zarathustra]

What? I hate to crush a fellow Pearlander, but are you high? What mess? Millions of hard-working, honest, young people who work cheap? Europe, China and Japan wish they had a mess like that.

You want to blame someone for the porous border, blame the Republicans for lacking the cajones to crack down on businesses hiring illegals after Reagan passed the amnesty law in the 80's.

I blame Republicans, as well as Democrats, for just the reasons you stated. The mess I am referring to, my astute friend, is not their labor contribution.... but as I stated, we are sitting back while huge numbers of people enter our country illegaly, demand amnesty, and seem to be getting it. After they take their "path to citizenship", they will add their voices to the millions of Hispanics we are seeing in the streets. Illegal immigration will get worse, not better. And the laws preventing it will not grow stronger. I support a guest worker program, especially if the immigrant guests get fair treatment and pay from employers, but they need to return to their homeland.

Edited to remove unnessecary comment

[Zarathustra]

Doesn't amnesty pretty much solve all the "get social services for free" and "crash into Moore's car without insurance" problems? The demographic sliding brownward is not, by itself, a problem.



Zara, once "they" run for and win office, they become "us".

I'm not as concerned about the social services for free as I am about allowing so many people from other nations into the USA, and then allowing them to become citizens ( and vote, and run for office, and impact future immigration law). I guess to some knee-jerk types I sound racist, but I am not framing it as a "race" issue, it's a culture thing, in my view. We are seeing a mass transposition of culture. Go to Mexico and see how smoothly things run... when they are "us", will our society be more like "them"?

[Andrew Mayer]

It'll be more like America.

[Zarathustra]

It'll be more like America.

Oh, whew! Good, then let's open the border and invite everyone and anyone. More like America is way better.

[XPav]

I'm not as concerned about the social services for free as I am about allowing so many people from other nations into the USA, and then allowing them to become citizens ( and vote, and run for office, and impact future immigration law). I guess to some knee-jerk types I sound racist, but I am not framing it as a "race" issue, it's a culture thing, in my view. We are seeing a mass transposition of culture. Go to Mexico and see how smoothly things run... when they are "us", will our society be more like "them"?

We can't let the slaves, Germans, Irish, Italians, Polish or Jewish immigrate and vote, they'll ruin the country!

Oh wait, we let them in. Good thing we managed to keep out the Chinese though, I mean, we sure don't need any hard workers in this country. No sir.

American Culture? Please. All we've got is what other people brought. Let's get some more.

[Andrew Mayer]

Oh, whew! Good, then let's open the border and invite everyone and anyone. More like America is way better.

You're certainly managing to fill the country with hyperbolic straw men.

[Ed Solomon]

I blame Republicans, as well as Democrats, for just the reasons you stated. The mess I am referring to, my astute friend, is not their labor contribution.... but as I stated, we are sitting back while huge numbers of people enter our country illegaly, demand amnesty, and seem to be getting it. After they take their "path to citizenship", they will add their voices to the millions of Hispanics we are seeing in the streets. Illegal immigration will get worse, not better. And the laws preventing it will not grow stronger. I support a guest worker program, especially if the immigrant guests get fair treatment and pay from employers, but they need to return to their homeland.

I'm not high, but you sure are dense.
Where to even begin.

Zara, I could solve the illegal immigration problem tomorrow. (1) Grant conditional legal residency to every illegal immigrant who was in the US on or before March 1. (2) Anyone who hires someone who is not a citizen or legal resident pays a fine and or goes to jail. (3) Relatively small guest worker program for seasonal industries like fruit and vegetable farms and resorts.

That's it. No jobs, no illegal immigration. People come to the US to work. If they wanted to be outlaws, they'd stay in their own countries with inept law enforcement.

If the thing that is upsetting you is that honest, hard-working brown people may eventually obtain citizenship and vote, then I got news for you, you are a racist.

[Zarathustra]

If the thing that is upsetting you is that honest, hard-working brown people may eventually obtain citizenship and vote, then I got news for you, you are a racist.

Again, you jump to play the race card. *shrug* Try this: suppose the illegals from south of the border were blonde, blue-eyed folk, but their society was as utterly disfunctional as Mexico, et all. I would still oppose allowing millions to colonize our country.

Zara, I could solve the illegal immigration problem tomorrow. (1) Grant conditional legal residency to every illegal immigrant who was in the US on or before March 1. (2) Anyone who hires someone who is not a citizen or legal resident pays a fine and or goes to jail. (3) Relatively small guest worker program for seasonal industries like fruit and vegetable farms and resorts.

I agree with points 2 and 3, even would like to see a large guest worker program with fair wages, but allowing 12 million people amnesty rewards illegal immigration & is unfair to those who are trying to immigrate legally and play by the rules (I work with two such people).

[Nick Walter]

Try this: suppose the illegals from south of the border were blonde, blue-eyed folk, but their society was as utterly disfunctional as Mexico, et all. I would still oppose allowing millions to colonize our country.


Why? What harm are they doing? It's the people who are willing to come into the country and work hard for shit wages in the hopes of a better life later on that fuel the American dream.

[Mike O'Malley]

Does it bother anyone else that we're granting amnesty and "special treatment" to illegal immigrants while H1Bs and so forth are legitimately toiling within the system, or is this purely a Hispanic issue?

I'm not trying to sound like some political freak, it just seems an artificial dichotomy to me.

[Ed Solomon]

Again, you jump to play the race card. *shrug* Try this: suppose the illegals from south of the border were blonde, blue-eyed folk, but their society was as utterly disfunctional as Mexico, et all. I would still oppose allowing millions to colonize our country.
What? Do you think they'll bring Mexico's dysfunctional legal and political systems with them in their knapsack?

For a guy who says he's not a racist, you talk like you think Mexicans are contagious to the body politic.

[Chris Nahr]

What? Do you think they'll bring Mexico's dysfunctional legal and political systems with them in their knapsack?

That's actually a perfectly reasonable assumption. Attitude towards legal and political institutions is learned, not inborn. People who grow up in a country where the police is a gang of corrupt criminals will have internalized that attitude and learned to accept their framework of rules, law and justice from their friends and family instead. That attitude won't just vanish the second they step across the border, especially when they bring all their friends and family with them. We certainly have enough cases of blood feuds and honor murders among immigrants in Europe that attest to that.

[MikeJ]

American Culture? Please. All we've got is what other people brought. Let's get some more.

It's true that the seeds of American culture were imported (with the immigrants) over a long period of time. America has been its own culture for a long time now, though. At this point, I'd say the US influences much more than it is influenced.

[Ed Solomon]

That's actually a perfectly reasonable assumption.
No it isn't.
People who grow up in a country where the police is a gang of corrupt criminals will have internalized that attitude and learned to accept their framework of rules, law and justice from their friends and family instead. That attitude won't just vanish the second they step across the border, especially when they bring all their friends and family with them.
Very few people immigrate from well functioning democracies. They leave dysfunctional shit holes. America was founded by and has continuously received, people fleeing dysfunctional shit holes. And it's not like Hispanics just got here, they've been in the Southwest since before the founding of the Republic. Last I checked, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and California were not any worse than the rest of the country.
We certainly have enough cases of blood feuds and honor murders among immigrants in Europe that attest to thatAnd that wouldn't have anything to do with your anemic labor market and ethnic based standards towards citizenship, would it?

[Jason McCullough]

One, it doesn't look like they're going to "getting amnesty" It was Bush's didea, and it doesn't look like it's going to pass.

Two, as a percentage of the population, the mexican immigrant waves are nothing compared to the catholic/irish/what have you waves of the early 20th century, and we somehow survived that, and they're americans like the rest of us.

Three, do you have any actual evidence that immigrants are bringing their "culture of corruption" with them? Because I'm not seeing it.

[Andrew Mayer]

You know who really ruined this country with their foreign culture and their lousy ideas? The damn Puritan Pilgrims. They also wore funny pants and had wierd hats.

[Jake Plane]

That's actually a perfectly reasonable assumption. Attitude towards legal and political institutions is learned, not inborn. People who grow up in a country where the police is a gang of corrupt criminals will have internalized that attitude and learned to accept their framework of rules, law and justice from their friends and family instead. That attitude won't just vanish the second they step across the border.

In some ways, I get this. Afterall, those early settlers that fled religious intolerance in Europe and came over here set up their own religiously intolerant communities (Catholics go here, Protestants here, etc).

But Cubans who fled Castro and moved to Miami haven't set up little Communist enclaves. Ever been to Florida? Those guys are rabid Capitalists and completely anti-Castro.

I think the key to understanding the difference between these two examples comes down to why people came. The early settlers were coming over to primarily worship as THEY pleased. They weren't coming over for the concept of religious freedom. They risked crossing an ocean to worship as the saw fit for themselves.

The Cubans who made a smaller but also dangerous water crossing came for freedom and to escape the Castro regime. They wanted to come to America to begin anew, revel in capitalism and ideally vote.

Now as for illegal immigrants today... I'd say their prime motivating factor - all those waving American flags aside - is financial.

Life in Mexico and the rest of Latin America sucks by comparison to here. The wages are low, the opportunities are few, their governments are corrupt and the divide between rich and poor is like the grand canyon.

Given that, I think it's safer to assume that what they'd value most about America are our economic freedoms. But secondly (or definitely very high on that list) they want to ESCAPE the corruption of their country, not export it.

[Moore]

It's true that the seeds of American culture were imported (with the immigrants) over a long period of time. America has been its own culture for a long time now, though. At this point, I'd say the US influences much more than it is influenced.

Yeah but our culture is crap, so lets throw some more spice in the mix.

[Gordon Cameron]

Yeah but our culture is crap, so lets throw some more spice in the mix.

Coltrane isn't bad.

[Zarathustra]

What? Do you think they'll bring Mexico's dysfunctional legal and political systems with them in their knapsack?

For a guy who says he's not a racist, you talk like you think Mexicans are contagious to the body politic.

Hard to say what's worse, someone who's racist or someone who exploits racism.

[XPav]

That's actually a perfectly reasonable assumption. Attitude towards legal and political institutions is learned, not inborn. People who grow up in a country where the police is a gang of corrupt criminals will have internalized that attitude and learned to accept their framework of rules, law and justice from their friends and family instead. That attitude won't just vanish the second they step across the border, especially when they bring all their friends and family with them. We certainly have enough cases of blood feuds and honor murders among immigrants in Europe that attest to that.
Chris,

Immigration to European countries is a fairly new thing -- and from personal accounts from my Dutch family as well as the reading of the news, well, it's a very, very different beast than US immigration to date.

The US hasn't perfected how to deal with immigration, but to be honest, we've got a huge history of immigration, and can deal with it. It's ingrained our countries blood. This is one of the few things where we Americans get to sit back and say "HAH! We've been doing it longer than you have!" Sure, an antique building in the US is anything over 100 years old, but we've got you Europeans at a disadvantage in this case.

Italians, Germans, Irish, Polish, Jewish, etc, all showed up in this country because it was a much better place than they started at. Every single time, there was something about "those" people that made them somehow worse than the last set of immigrants, and how America was going to be ruined. And in every case, they were utterly, utterly wrong.

I wasn't born in the US (but born a US citizen), neither of my parents were born US citizens.My dad's family fled Russia to California when the communists came to power. They didn't bring the corrupt tzarist state, they sure as hell didn't bring communism, all despite the fact that their life in Russia was very different that what we had in the US.

Illegal immigrants come to the US from the middle and southern american countries because those countries suck to live in. There's jobs here for them where they get paid well, and every single immigrant I've known from south of the border, legal or not, worked their ass off. I drive by the street where day laborers are picked up every day on my way to work, and there's always people picking them up.

I've never seen those opposed to illegal immigrants ever say that these people aren't hard workers -- it's all "shouldn't support anyone illegaly immigrating, that screws over legal immigrants", or "those jobs should go to Americans" or some variations thereof.

I compare this to the apocryphal horror stories from my Dutch relatives, where Morrocans and Serbians show up in the Netherlands, hold out their hand, take the welfare money, and drink it away. True or not, the attitudes to immigration are very, very different in the US. We don't have a state that provides this type of welfare, for one.

Myself, I think we should abolish the H-1B visa, mainly because I think we should encourage those smart people to stay here, and give them citizenship like any normal immigrant. I don't like seeing companies having the power to deport people.

Of course, the H-1B thing is becoming a non-issue anyway, since we can just send the jobs overseas rather than bring the people from overseas to the job.

I mean, look at this old cartoon from the 1880s.

http://www.hsp.org/files/unclesamslodginghousecover2.jpg

This cartoon, published in Puck in the 1880s, reinforces the stereotype of the Irishman as an essentially combative troublemaker. Uncle Sam reprimands him, "Look here, you, everybody else is quiet and peaceable, and you're all the time a-kicking up a row!" The editorial that accompanied the cartoon asserted: "the raw Irishman in America is a nuisance, his son a curse. They never assimilate; the second generation simply shows an intensification of all the bad qualities of the first. . . .They are a burden and a misery to this country."

That's fucking ridiculous!

More Crazy Shit (http://www.hsp.org/default.aspx?id=394).

All of this has happened in the past, and all of it will happen again, and every time, the worst that's been said has NEVER come to pass. At least we don't see stupid shit like the cartoon above anymore.

Immigration is good. Immigration is one of the things that's kept the US a more dynamic country that Europe. Western European countries, without the benefit of immigration, are going to have severe problems in the years to come with their aging population and welfare state. It's just not going to work. The US, with immigration, may have to increase Social Security spending 2%, because we've got people coming in, and they're having kidsn, and they're working hard.

I think we can handle it.

Rant done.

[Zarathustra]

Sensing change, migrants rush to the border
Mexicans hurrying to Arizona anticipating passage of guest-worker plan

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12291035/

Come on in, my brothers!

PS: If I was a racist, why would I have spent several days of my employee vacation to volunteer assistance for Katrina victims?

[XPav]

"Hey, do you want to leave your crappy country and legally work in a country that will pay better wages?"

[Zarathustra]

"Hey, do you want to leave your crappy country and legally work in a country that will pay better wages?"


Legally or illegally, come on in! When there are enough, you can change the laws to suit your tastes.

The shelter’s manager, Francisco Loureiro, said he has not seen such a rush of migrants since 1986, when the United States allowed 2.6 million illegal residents to get American citizenship.

This time, the draw is a bill before the U.S. Senate that could legalize some of the 11 million people now illegally in the United States while tightening border security.

Next time, let's try for 30 million.

And those 11 million probably will have 2~4 family members to bring in once they are "legal".

[Jason McCullough]

The US, with immigration, may have to increase Social Security spending 2%, because we've got people coming in, and they're having kidsn, and they're working hard.

Actually this part is hilarious - the way the numbers work out immigration is good for the health of the social security system.

When there are enough, you can change the laws to suit your tastes.

Where's the massive political influence of immigrants? Cough up some examples.

I'm also not following how "whoa even more immigrants are coming!" is something we should all be concerned about when we don't agree with your reasons for objecting to the current situation. The horror - more people looking for a better life!

[Andrew Mayer]

Guess who was the first person to bring up Racism in this topic?

I guess to some knee-jerk types I sound racist, but I am not framing it as a "race" issue, it's a culture thing, in my view.

I think you knew you were making racist statements. Others may not agree with "your view" and consider it a race and not a "culture thing" without being a "knee-jerk type", whatever the hell that means. And you've provided zero examples of your "cultural" bias.

Oh, and it's perfectly possible to be racist against one race and not anotherg hence "New Orleans" does not equal "Mexico".

[MikeP]

Two, as a percentage of the population, the mexican immigrant waves are nothing compared to the catholic/irish/what have you waves of the early 20th century, and we somehow survived that, and they're americans like the rest of us.

I think the immigrant wave of the early 20th century is comparable to the Latino influx today. Census numbers put the "foreign born" population at 15% in 1910, and over 10% for the decades around that. The 2000 census estimates 30 million foreign born people out of the entire population of 280 million, 11%. I'm not sure whether that includes illegal immigrants (I couldn't find an explicit statement one way or another). Furthermore, if you look at the percent of population, there are more foreign born people in the US now than any time the past 50 years, and the percentage is increasing.

Our current immigration rates are historically high, and we need to come up with a way to deal with them rationally. You can't just wave them off saying we've dealt with them before.

[Jason McCullough]

Good point on the numbers.

But, uh, why can't we just wave them off saying we've dealt with them before? We did. I don't see what the concern is about, other than "boy it sucks if you're a ditchdigger"; but no one gives a crap about ditchdiggers in US politics.

[Andrew Mayer]

It's not a rational argument by rational people. It was a calculated wedge issue designed to inflame their base and it blew up in their faces.

The GOP thought they could clown the issue to avoid talking about actual governance. It didn't work. Waah.

[Nellie]

The only problem both the US and Europe have with immigration right now is that while we secretly acknowledge that we need it, there are just too damn many brown people arriving, especially if they aren't nominally christian as well.

I've seen Newspapers over here quite literally bemoan the population "crisis" (not enough workers, too many jobs and old people) on one page and whine about the lack of lebensraum for all the brown people arriving on the other.

Seems to me that we have an overpopulated world at the moment pretty much everywhere outside the US and Europe, would appear that an easier solution to trying to pay people to have babies when they don't want to is to import a bunch of people from elsewhere with population to spare to plug the gap.

[Chris Nahr]

You have newspapers bemoaning the fact that you have too many jobs? That's weird, unemployment is >8% across Europe... and it's usually highest among immigrants and their children. Unless immigrants actually find a paying job they consume the country's social budget rather than contributing to it.

Europe does not need immigrants, Europe needs jobs. Having an intact age pyramid doesn't mean jack if the entire base of the pyramid is on the dole.

That's also a significant difference to the Mexican/American issue, as I understand it, because those immigrants are actually attracted by local businesses who want to employ them.

[Nellie]

You have newspapers bemoaning the fact that you have too many jobs? That's weird, unemployment is >8% across Europe... and it's usually highest among immigrants and their children. Unless immigrants actually find a paying job they consume the country's social budget rather than contributing to it.

UK unemployment is at around 5% at the moment and there are definitely shortages in some areas such as Dentists (cue all the jokes about English teeth), though the flood of IT workers into plumbing and Electricians should sort some of it out ;)

I'm not sure that the impact of the recent swelling of the EU has fully taken hold so far, but the lower rungs of the service industry here at the moment (cleaners etc) does seem to be particularly flush with Eastern Europeans at the moment.

Regarding a lot of the illegal immigrants, they're in a tricky situation a lot of the time. They aren't allowed to work while their case is assessed so they don't have any choice but to claim welfare. I'm really not convinced that a qualified doctor, for example, tramps halfway across the world because he thinks that sitting on his arse in a bedsit on £30 a week unemployment benefit is paradise.

[Jason McCullough]

I think the answer to Europe's unemployment problem is a sustained bout of targeted inflation. Your central banks are just obsessed with stopping inflation, to the detriment of everything else.

The research out there on euroscleoris is pretty damn odd, though.

[MikeP]

But, uh, why can't we just wave them off saying we've dealt with them before?

We dealt with the previous immigration wave by passing laws restricting immigration. Google tells me the first law was passed in 1882 restricing Chinese immigration, and a series of bills were passed throughout the early 20th century. Furthermore, I think Communist fear played into the initial immigration laws.

What's different today is that I don't think we can simply pass legislation restricting immigration, nor do I think we should. We can't stop people from jumping the border, like we can stop ships.

[Dirt]

We should start sending the immigration police to some of these rallies.

[Andrew Mayer]

We should arrest everyone as well, on the assumption that most latinos are probably illegals.

Free speech sure fucks things up, don't it?

[Dirt]

If they have a green card, visa or American passport, then they don't have a problem.

[Jake Plane]

We should start sending the immigration police to some of these rallies.

Waste of time and resources. If you want to go the stick approach, the best thing to do is take steps to stop illegal immigration at the source, and that means securing our nation's borders.

[Andrew Mayer]

If they have a green card, visa or American passport, then they don't have a problem.

We can call this a "free speech check"!

Or, wait, we can issue a "Speech license" that you must have before you can assemble in public.

[Ben]

Mayer- Dirt's suggestion is ridiculous because of the reasons Jake Plane mentions, but wtf? The 1st amendement has nothing to do with it.

[Andrew Mayer]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[Dirt]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Isn't this the crux of the argument: Do illegals have such rights?

[Andrew Mayer]

No. The assumption that all Latinos are automatically illegals is problematic as is the idea that you can use that assumption to criminalize legal public gatherings.

[Ben]

Dirt- No, that isn't the crux of the argument. I don't even see why there is an argument. Beyond that Mexican citizens don't fall under the auspices of the Bill of Rights, law enforcement is certainly allowed to try to enforce the laws of the land. Carrying a placard is not freedom from prosecution.

Would Family Services be infringing on anyone's right to peacably assemble if they attended a "Deadbeat Fathers United" rally with the intention of serving warrants? ATF at a Klan meeting, DEA at a marijuana growing convention, whatever.

[Marcus]

Isn't this the crux of the argument: Do illegals have such rights?

According to the LAPD and POST yes they do have all the rights afforded to normal citizens in the bill of rights.

[Jason McCullough]

Actually, come to think of it, what does and doesn't apply to a) people who aren't us citizens but are in the US; b) they're here illegally? I can't imagine cops can beat them up, for one, but I haven't seen anything on it.

[Ben]

McCullough- One would imagine an illegal alien has the right to be deported back to his home country. A suspected illegal alien has the same rights as anyone else.
How can we justify creating some sort of weird second class citizen status?

[Jason McCullough]

I'm not saying we should, I just remember their legal rights being not quite total. It's a lot easier legally to spy on non-US citizens in the US, for example.

[SwampIrish]

Last I checked, whatever problems we have in Texas are the Baptists' fault, not the Hispanics'.

Been to Pasadena lately?

[Ed Solomon]

Been to Pasadena lately?
Pasa-get down-dena? Not in while, no.

Why?

[shift6]

Maybe it's because I grew up surrounded by them, but I love Mexicans. They have better food, better music and dance, a better language, a better work ethic, better values, and better television than most of America's offerings (in the aggregate). Frankly, the only thing we have is a stronger economy and natural resources. I say let them all in.

[Zarathustra]

Mayer- Dirt's suggestion is ridiculous because of the reasons Jake Plane mentions, but wtf? The 1st amendement has nothing to do with it.

Yes, and throw out the police and FBI fingerprint records, what a waste of time to use records to enforce the LAW.

[Zarathustra]

McCullough- One would imagine an illegal alien has the right to be deported back to his home country. A suspected illegal alien has the same rights as anyone else.
How can we justify creating some sort of weird second class citizen status?

First of all, illegal aliens are not "citizens", first, second, or any class.

[Zarathustra]

Maybe it's because I grew up surrounded by them, but I love Mexicans. They have better food, better music and dance, a better language, a better work ethic, better values, and better television than most of America's offerings (in the aggregate). Frankly, the only thing we have is a stronger economy and natural resources. I say let them all in.

Good enough for me. I'm calling my Senator Monday and urging immediate amnesty and free, unfettered access across the border for anyone. May as well through in free college and health care, too.

[shift6]

Good enough for me. I'm calling my Senator Monday and urging immediate amnesty and free, unfettered access across the border for anyone. May as well through in free college and health care, too.
You're barking up the wrong tree, holmes. With some very rare exceptions I don't support free government sponsored cheese for anyone. I simply don't think that letting the Mexicans, Columbians, Nicaraguans, Brazilians, or even Canadians free passage in to and out of my nation is even remotely related to me handing them all my money. That's just a very clear line in my head. No grey area.

[Zarathustra]

You're barking up the wrong tree, holmes. With some very rare exceptions I don't support free government sponsored cheese for anyone. I simply don't think that letting the Mexicans, Columbians, Nicaraguans, Brazilians, or even Canadians free passage in to and out of my nation is even remotely related to me handing them all my money. That's just a very clear line in my head. No grey area.

Ah, but you don't know yourself that well, then, amigo. Over half the people in this country believe that education and health care should be freely available to anyone who needs them; and that half also thinks flooding the country with low-skill immigrants is a good thing. You made it clear you support the latter, once they are here and in need, you'll support the former.

[Nick Walter]

Ah, but you don't know yourself that well, then, amigo. Over half the people in this country believe that education and health care should be freely available to anyone who needs them; and that half also thinks flooding the country with low-skill immigrants is a good thing. You made it clear you support the latter, once they are here and in need, you'll support the former.

So you are okay with immigrants as long as we treat them like shit?

[shift6]

Ah, but you don't know yourself that well, then, amigo. Over half the people in this country believe that...
So I don't know myself, because other people believe XYZ?

[Dirt]

Maybe it's because I grew up surrounded by them, but I love Mexicans. They have better food, better music and dance, a better language, a better work ethic, better values, and better television than most of America's offerings (in the aggregate). Frankly, the only thing we have is a stronger economy and natural resources. I say let them all in.
My group is more Salvadoran.

[Gordon Cameron]

better music

Evidently I've been hearing the wrong Mexican music.

[shift6]

My group is more Salvadoran.
Buddy of mine has a Salvadoran wife. She's a hot fucking tamale and one helluva cook.

Evidently I've been hearing the wrong Mexican music.
Watch Telemundo, if you have it in your area. Specifically look for their music shows or listen to the music during their commercials (not the American commercials ported to another language, BTW).

[Ben]

Over half the people in this country believe that education and health care should be freely available to anyone who needs them; and that half also thinks flooding the country with low-skill immigrants is a good thing. You made it clear you support the latter, once they are here and in need, you'll support the former.

W-T-F.

[Graeme Dice]

Ah, but you don't know yourself that well, then, amigo. Over half the people in this country believe that education and health care should be freely available to anyone who needs them;

So what you are saying is that you don't believe that education and health care should be freely available to anyone who needs them? That you believe that literacy and education should be limited to only those people who have wealthy enough parents to send them to privately run schools? I suppose that that would be attractive to those people who'd like to return to class-based societies. Do you want to limit medical care to only those people who can afford to personally pay their bills? From that attitude, you must either be a teenager who still thinks you are invincible, or a 50+ year old male who's either already had, or is well on the way to your first heart attack. It's strange how those people who aren't competent enough to take care of themselves physically also want to make sure that nobody else can either.

[Dirt]

Buddy of mine has a Salvadoran wife. She's a hot fucking tamale and one helluva cook.
Yeah. Pissing off a Salvadoran woman is a bad idea.

[shift6]

I was referring to her physical pulcritude (aka "I'd hit it") but she did have a temper also. Heh

[Brian Koontz]

Some of the posters in this thread are fundamentally confused.

Any position of "illegal immigration is good" has to address the law regarding immigration, since obviously the law stands in the way. No argument of "but we are all immigrants!" or "look what immigration has done for this country!" means anything without reference to the law that defines illegal and legal immigration.

Its nice to live in a country that is so attractive to foreigners that they are willing to begin as criminals to live here. In order to continue to have that sort of country, I think we should be selective in who we bring in. The common means of selection, degree of education and profession, is a good one.

[Simpilot]

I have no problem with someone coming here wanting a better life. But the early immigrants who came here came wanting to be Americans, not Mexicans (or whatever) just taking up space here. Coming here to make a better life for your family, learning the language, trying to fit in in your adpoted country, all admirable things. Coming here and committing crimes, refusing to learn the native language, etc. are trademarks of jackasses and are beneath contempt.

[Jason McCullough]

.....but the early immigrants who came here came wanting to be Americans

Actually, I bet they didn't. Do you have any evidence for this?

[Andrew Mayer]

Coming here and committing crimes, refusing to learn the native language, etc. are trademarks of jackasses and are beneath contempt.

Godfather 2 all the way...