"Galileo was wrong..."

[MattKeil]

...says crazy, crazy man.

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/thesunherald/news/world/14202379.htm


There are no statistics on numbers of geocentrists. Sungenis said he thinks it's "definitely growing, both nationally and internationally."

Marshall Hall is one. He's been researching it since 1980, and posted his Web site, www.fixedearth.com, in 1997.

Hall realizes it's a tough sell.

"Normally the reaction is, 'You've got to be crazy,"' he said from his home in Cornelia, Ga.

So sometimes he uses this illustration story:

You want to travel from Washington, D.C., to San Francisco. If the Earth is turning, why not just hover in a helicopter? Wait a few hours above the East Coast and eventually the West Coast will be underneath you.

It continues to amaze me that people who can ostensibly read and write can be this stupid. Intelligent design is bad enough, but even ID believers laugh at the bloody geocentrists. Is there an actual reference in the bible to Earth being the center of the universe? I don't recall that part, although it certainly wouldn't surprise me if it was in there.

[Enidigm]

It's really (as i said in a post a couple threads down) just good old fashioned anti-intellectualism. Science and reality pisses people off more then it pleases them, in general, and quite a few want to be able to have a "Reasonable Doubt".

The more bs like this comes out that seems to discredit or cast doubt upon legitimate science - to the undifferentiating lay person - , the easier it is to believe in angels, demons, God's hand in your daily life, Suzy died to fufill God's plan, ect.

I actually think it's part of a fundamental human psychological flaw. I think we would prefer to live in a myth then in a cold, mechanical reality; because reality is one of the hardest tests upon our security and emotional well being. An invisible, lightning wielding God-King is an easier master to bear and comprehend then senseless evolution and calculus. Heaven is always Angels, and big Thrones, and lots of compassion. Heaven is never a new sandbox in which to make it all aright youself, all alone.

[Gary Whitta]

Just out of interest, why doesn't the hovering thing work? Are you still being pulled around by the rotational force of the earth or something?

[Ed Solomon]

Just out of interest, why doesn't the hovering thing work? Are you still being pulled around by the rotational force of the earth or something?
Ahh, the wonders of an English education.

[Gary Whitta]

Ahh, the wonders of an English education.
The problem is back in Britain we have to learn 1,000 years of history rather than just 200, which leaves less time for science classes, which I never paid attention in anyway.

[Euri]

Hello Inertia, how are you today?


If I am in a car moving at 50mph, and I drop a rock inside the car, why doesn't the rock FLY OUT THE BACK WINDOW??!?!?!???!!!!!!!!!????????????????111

[MikeSofaer]

I would guess the biggest factor in the hovering question is that friction between the earth and the atmosphere makes the atmoshpere spin, too.

[Nathan]

The atmosphere's pretty much going the same speed as the surface of the earth. If the air stayed still from an outside frame of reference, we'd experience that as 1000mph winds at the equator.

[Ed Solomon]

The problem is back in Britain we have to learn 1,000 years of history rather than just 200, which leaves less time for science classes, which I never paid attention in anyway.Good point. That's probably why we make most of our history up around here, it's easier to remember that way.

[MikeJ]

I would guess the biggest factor in the hovering question is that friction between the earth and the atmosphere makes the atmoshpere spin, too.

Even if there were no atmosphere, the helicopter (rocket copter?) would still have to kill its momentum relative to the center of the Earth. Relative to the surface of the Earth, you'd have to be going about Mach 1.5 to do that.

[MikeSofaer]

Even if there were no atmosphere, the helicopter (rocket copter?) would still have to kill its momentum relative to the center of the Earth. Relative to the surface of the Earth, you'd have to be going about Mach 1.5 to do that.
That would be true if the earth spun at orbital velocity, but as it is just staying off the ground accelerates you relative to the earth if there is no atmosphere.

[Ed Solomon]

Speaking of nutjobs, anyone know a good (at least lucid) site about scalar weather control? This site (http://www.cheniere.org/toc.html) seems to be the original kook node, but it's so chockful of all sorts of wackiness about zero point energy, it skimps on the good stuff about how the Yakuza and KGB are controlling our weather.

[Bill]

The atmosphere's pretty much going the same speed as the surface of the earth. If the air stayed still from an outside frame of reference, we'd experience that as 1000mph winds at the equator.

Now that would be a pretty awesome sight.

[Ben Sones]

That would be true if the earth spun at orbital velocity, but as it is just staying off the ground accelerates you relative to the earth if there is no atmosphere.

Without any other force acting on you aside from the force that lifted you from the Earth's surface, you would not experience any acceleration. You would still be moving at exactly the same speed as the surface of the Earth, but because the circumference of your orbit is now greater than the circumference of the surface of the Earth, the surface of the Earth would appear to be moving at a different speed than your own.

[MikeJ]

That would be true if the earth spun at orbital velocity, but as it is just staying off the ground accelerates you relative to the earth if there is no atmosphere.

Huh? Our hypothetical rocket copter is 100m off the ground, applying a 1g thrust to counter-act gravity. Now how is it going to start accelerating relative to the surface?

I guess you mean if you perfectly counter-acted gravity, you'd be going in a straight line. But that would look more like gaining a lot of altitude and very slowly drifting back. The picture of a hovering helicopter is more like a psuedo orbit, where 'orbital' velocity is slower because you are countering most of the acceleration due to gravity, but leave just enough to keep you at constant altitude.

Anyway, I guess we are getting into a pretty silly situation.

[Bill]

That reminds me, I caught a few minutes of the Today Show and they had some batshit insane guy (Baignet, he's suing about the Da Vinci Code) talking about how Jesus survived the crucifixion. And hey, that's cool, I'm not dogmatic about anything but his evidence was comically weak. It seemed that he had two pieces of evidence:

1. It hints at it in the scriptures (he didn't elaborate).
2. There's a church in France where one of the stations of the cross shows Jesus's pals removing him from the crypt at night... and the only possible explanation for this is that they're actually sneaking him out of the crypt while he's still alive.

[MikeSofaer]

Huh? Our hypothetical rocket copter is 100m off the ground, applying a 1g thrust to counter-act gravity. Now how is it going to start accelerating relative to the surface?

I guess you mean if you perfectly counter-acted gravity, you'd be going in a straight line. But that would look more like gaining a lot of altitude and very slowly drifting back. The picture of a hovering helicopter is more like a psuedo orbit, where 'orbital' velocity is slower because you are countering most of the acceleration due to gravity, but leave just enough to keep you at constant altitude.

Anyway, I guess we are getting into a pretty silly situation.
Yeah, this is a bit silly.

Anyway, a 1g thrust would have you moving off the earth tangentially in a straight line. You need less that that to maintain a fixed distance from the surface. Or more, I guess, depending on direction. But orbital mechanics are much less intuitive than air navigation, it's not as simple as you might think.

[Enidigm]

Nah, it was Jesus' brother.

1. Nobody recognized him
2. He showed his palms. Romans crucified by nailing the wrists.

[Steve Canyon]

Just out of interest, why doesn't the hovering thing work? Are you still being pulled around by the rotational force of the earth or something?

It works. You can prove it playing basketball. If you can leap high enough into the air at one end of the court, the other goal will come rushing up underneath you, and then you can just drop down and score.

If you find this doesn't work, it means you're not getting enough height when you jump. NOTE: it helps if you are not white when you do this.

:)

[wildpokerman]

The atmosphere's pretty much going the same speed as the surface of the earth. If the air stayed still from an outside frame of reference, we'd experience that as 1000mph winds at the equator.

The lack of such winds is proof that the universe is spinning around the earth.

[Rob Beschizza]

What kind of wheels does the helicopter have?

[Bill Dungsroman]

1. It hints at it in the scriptures (he didn't elaborate).
Man, why even bother with a #2 here? The scripture fucking hints at everything.

[Saber Cherry]

If you take away the atmosphere and hover (using a jet-pack), eventually you will go from DC to San Francisco, since you will have the same angular momentum but a large radius than the surface of the earth, and thus your translational velocity must decrease. But it will take a while, since your circle is only .00001% bigger than the Earth's circle. The guy's problem is just that he has no concept of math (i.e. that it applies to reality, not just worksheets), or maybe of the Earth being spherical.

On the real world, of course, the force of winds are much greater than the difference in translational velocity, and you would go wherever the winds took you (though the prevailing winds are spawned by the spinning Earth, too). Even with no wind, air friction would quickly neutralize your initial tiny relative velocity, preventing you from slowly drifting to the West.

In other words, simple 4th-grade math and science experiments a 4th-grader can do in his/her own house (like pushing a balloon, and seeing if it keeps moving forever in the same direction...) can provide his answers. I suspect he missed that year of school... he was probably off building churches for the needy in Uganda, with the Cub Scouts.

[SolomonGrundy]

I thought I was the center of the universe....or maybe my cat is.I know it is nearby.

[playingwithknives]

If the earth spun, and orbited the sun, the planet would fly off the elephants backs, and the elephants wouldnt be able to stay on the giant turtle.

[Nellie]

Can we put him in a lift, cut the cables and let him jump just before it hits the ground?

[Nick Walter]

What kind of wheels does the helicopter have?

And more importantly, at what speed is the big gay conveyor belt moving?

[Timemaster Tim]

It's allowable to have a frame of reference where the earth is in a fixed position. The only problem is that the math for orbital mechanics becomes a total bitch.

[Saber Cherry]

It's allowable to have a frame of reference where the earth is in a fixed position.

But not one where the Earth isn't spinning, or there wouldn't be hurricanes, and flushing a toilet wouldn't work - the whirlpool would spin backwards and suck sludge back out of the sewer in a giant fecal geyser, like in Australia. Or so I've heard...

That went off topic, but the accused claims that the Earth isn't spinning, not that it isn't moving.

[Ed Solomon]

That went off topic, but the accused claims that the Earth isn't spinning, not that it isn't moving.I think one of us is confused about what fixed means in the phrase fixed earth.

[MikeJ]

Can we put him in a lift, cut the cables and let him jump just before it hits the ground?

I think that's the heart of it. Nothwithstanding some off-the-wall scenarios that would get you from DC to California, the basic error is the same as the elevator example. People seem to have this intuition that if you break your connection with the object that is 'driving' the motion, you automatically stop moving.

[Damien Falgoust]

What if the Earth is sitting on a giant conveyor belt....?

[Saber Cherry]

I think one of us is confused about what fixed means in the phrase fixed earth.

Possible, but irrelevant. The previous poster said "...where the Earth is in a fixed position.", and never mentioned "fixed Earth."

Please note that things can spin in a fixed position, since position corresponds to translation. In other words, if I ask you where you are, you shouldn't say "I'm facing west, and spinning".

[Duality]

Didn't REM do a song about this?

[Midnight Son]

Gravity, like the best coeds, sucks.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Gravity, like the best coeds, sucks.

The best coeds sucks. MS, hero of the semi-literate!

[Midnight Son]

Dungsroman, grammar nazi!

(And kind of a slow-typer.)

[Rimbo]

Q: Since all movement is relative, why -couldn't- you just define the Earth as the fixed point, and make that the fixed point around which things move, rather than choosing the sun or the center of the galaxy or some other arbitrary fixed point?

A: This one goes to eleven








Just trying to make the thread a little more surreal.

[shift6]

Gravity, like the best coeds, sucks.
Anderson's law: nothing sucks.

[Steve Canyon]

Anderson's law: nothing sucks.

You can tell from that law that Anderson is no fun on a date.

[Ed Solomon]

Possible, but irrelevant. The previous poster said "...where the Earth is in a fixed position.", and never mentioned "fixed Earth."

Please note that things can spin in a fixed position, since position corresponds to translation. In other words, if I ask you where you are, you shouldn't say "I'm facing west, and spinning".
Your logic is Koontzian in its devilishness, but I was responding to this statement by you:That went off topic, but the accused claims that the Earth isn't spinning, not that it isn't moving.The accused, aka Marshall Hall, aka the nutjob quoted in the OP, not only claims that the Earth isn't spinning but that it is not moving at all, hence the title of his website, www.fixedearth.com.

[Saber Cherry]

The accused, aka Marshall Hall, aka the nutjob quoted in the OP, not only claims that the Earth isn't spinning but that it is not moving at all, hence the title of his website, www.fixedearth.com.

Ah, I stand corrected. Or at least I try, but I keep falling over at 1000 mph.

[Ed Solomon]

Ah, I stand corrected. Or at least I try, but I keep falling over at 1000 mph.
Tell me about it, those equatorial winds are a bitch.