Oblivion: 3 restarts to satisfaction

[Dave Markell]

(mild spoilers included in the following post)

Like many of you, I've been obsessively playing Oblivion. Unlike most of you, I keep replaying the early stages due to my dissatisfactions with the character system. Here is the sordid tale of my many playthroughs and the mods that eventually made me happy.

My first character was designed to be a throwaway. I wanted to experiment with various skills and see how the game engine treated them. He never got very far, but served his purpose. Version 2, however, was designed to be more permanent. I made a Breton specialized in magic but who also took blunt, block, and heavy armor as three of his primary skills so that he could do something besides run away when he ran out of mana (I tend to like tank mages in single player games anyway since there's no backup). The other 4 skills were, as you would expect, magical.

This character was fun, effective, and leveled WAY too fast. I joined the mage's guild at the first opportunity and focused on doing the quests for each chapter house so that I could be admitted to the Imperial Academy and design my own spells/items, always a highlight for me in TES games. By the time I got my mage staff, I was level 14 and had never fought a single goblin, scamp, wolf, etc. because the mage quests use primarily human foes and the game's insistence on generating leveled content had blasted me by all the low level monsters. I was outleveling vast swathes of content, which I hate. I was sure that this (http://www.tessource.net/files/file.php?id=1820) mod would be my salvation. With it, I could make skills up to ten times harder to increase, massively slowing down my leveling and ensuring I wouldn't miss most of the game's creatures.

So, of course, I restarted again. Slow leveling worked just as planned. I fought goblins. I fought wolves. I was happy. Sort of. The problem now was that I'd gotten a handle on the mechanics of attribute increase, thanks to this and other forums. Increase skills based on a particular stat 10 times before you level and you get a +5 stat boost, increase them 8 and you get a +4, etc. Min-maxer that I am, I wanted to be sure that my keys stats got those +5's. However, my character as designed had huge problems with that. Since most of my favorite skills/stats were primaries, using them also leveled me. There was absolutely no way I could get 3 +5's with my current build. I felt that I needed them, too. My first real character (the one that hit level 14) didn't get good stat increases when he leveled, and he felt weaker (compared to his leveled foes) every time as a result.

So, of course, I restarted yet again, making the skills I actually cared about minors and taking controllable junk skills for my majors. This, too, worked, but was just too tedious and gamey for my tastes. I had to watch skill use like a hawk, to the point that immersion was blown. Once again, the mod community game to my rescue. This (http://files.filefront.com/plus5alwaysesp/;4919583;;/fileinfo.html) mod ensures that, if you increased a skill based on that stat even once during your current level, you get a +5 when you level up.

Now, I'm happy again. I've made the game both much slower (by reducing my rate of skill increasem typically 3x) and less gamey (by ensuring I get the top stat mod when I level). I can create the character I want and play the game my way.

Until I find my next problem, anyway :-)

[Matt Perkins]

I um...created a custom thief class and wandered the country side leveling as leveling occurs. Seems good to me. :)

I'm suggesting maybe you're doing too much min maxing. :)

[Charles]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you just delay your training until you get the skillups you want?

Also, I had no idea that the amount you train a skill resulted in those bonus skill points. I thought they were arbitrary. Of course, I'm still only level 2 and just joined the mage's guild.

Honestly, though, I don't mind being powerful. Makes the game less tedious, and I can enjoy blasting the shit out of enemies weaker than myself.

[Rob Beschizza]

I too kept replaying the first hour, though you sound like you're replaying the first eight hours. My reasons were nerdish, to the point of scary, in that it's all about finding the absolute perfect character. But, when you know a game is good enough to steal dozens of hours, you want to get it right. It's like buying a car.

[Dave Markell]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you just delay your training until you get the skillups you want?

Also, I had no idea that the amount you train a skill resulted in those bonus skill points. I thought they were arbitrary. Of course, I'm still only level 2 and just joined the mage's guild.

Honestly, though, I don't mind being powerful. Makes the game less tedious, and I can enjoy blasting the *!%$ out of enemies weaker than myself.

See, that's the problem. You don't get powerful compared to your foes. Oblivion uses leveled content. Your enemies are almost always the exact same level you are. Past the newbie levels you'll never see a scamp or rat again. They'll be replaced by minotaurs and equivalent ilk. You never feel powerful as a result. Every fight is a fight for your life.

[Ben Sones]

See, that's the problem. You don't get powerful compared to your foes. Oblivion uses leveled content. Your enemies are almost always the exact same level you are. Past the newbie levels you'll never see a scamp or rat again. They'll be replaced by minotaurs and equivalent ilk. You never feel powerful as a result. Every fight is a fight for your life.

I'm level 9, and I still encounter rats from time to time. And whether you like the scaling or not, it's not true that enemies are "almost always exactly the same level as you are." It's true that they generally aren't radically different, but very often they are a level or two above or below you.

[shang]

Past the newbie levels you'll never see a scamp or rat again. They'll be replaced by minotaurs and equivalent ilk. You never feel powerful as a result. Every fight is a fight for your life.

Not quite so. Rats et al can still be spawned at higher levels I think, it's just less probable. The highwaymen-wearing-daedric-sets thing bothers me a lot more if that's true.

[Dave Markell]

Not quite so. Rats et al can still be spawned at higher levels I think, it's just less probable. The highwaymen-wearing-daedric-sets thing bothers me a lot more if that's true.

I can't speak to daedric--I never got that high--but every bandit type I fought at 14th level had orcish, so it sure looks like way. The armor progression was steady: rusty to iron to steel to dwarven to orcish. And yes, in a random outdoor encounter you MIGHT run into a rat, but not in the questing that consumes almost all of your game time.

[Charles]

I look forward to the mods that disable the concurrent levelling. I always did think it was stupid. Strength of enemies should be dependent on where you are.

Oh, also, on a side note, do you ever leave cyrodil? I spent some time reading that (horribly written) pocket guide to the empire that came with my CE. I'd hate to think I went through all that pain and agony just to not get to travel to any of the places I read about.

[Dave Markell]

And whether you like the scaling or not, it's not true that enemies are "almost always exactly the same level as you are." It's true that they generally aren't radically different, but very often they are a level or two above or below you.

That must be from the strategy guide or forums. It's not obvious from playing the game--there's no level indicator light on foes. All I could see was that at level 14, the bandits I fought were more dangerous to me than the bandits I fought at level one. I had improved, certainly, but they had improved more. That's when I became concerned about min-maxing stat increases.

[WarrenM]

I um...created a custom thief class and wandered the country side leveling as leveling occurs. Seems good to me. :)
This is what I'm doing as well. I have a thief/acrobat character and I'm just playing the game (mostly just wandering and doing things I discover and kind of ignoring the main story line), leveling up as it comes. I'm having an absolute blast!

[metta]

I rolled a Wood Elf, had him born under the sign of the Thief, and took the default thief loadout for skills.

My 'perfect character' isn't created in the first 30 minutes of the game, but in the last 30.

In fact, the first character I rolled in Baldur's Gate, a Human Bard, is the same one that played through Tales of the Sword Coast, Baldur's Gate II, and Throne of Bhaal.

That was a pretty good character :O

[Charles]

This is what I'm doing as well. I have a thief/acrobat character and I'm just playing the game (mostly just wandering and doing things I discover and kind of ignoring the main story line), leveling up as it comes. I'm having an absolute blast!


What?


(the planetcrap invasion is now complete)

[Moore]

I look forward to the mods that disable the concurrent levelling. I always did think it was stupid. Strength of enemies should be dependent on where you are.

Oh, also, on a side note, do you ever leave cyrodil? I spent some time reading that (horribly written) pocket guide to the empire that came with my CE. I'd hate to think I went through all that pain and agony just to not get to travel to any of the places I read about.

no, I think only daggerfall had more than one province (it had3? or some huge number, considering their size)

Morrowind wasnt even Morowind, it was just the island up top.

[Charles]

no

Crap. I just got MattG'd again.

[Ephraim]

I dunno if this is screwing me or not, but if I level and I haven't increased in skills that will get me decent stat bonuses, I just don't go to sleep.

Which means that I never actually "level".

Is this a mistake? Is there something going on in the background that could make my character's rampant abuse of NO-DOZE and chocolate covered coffee beans problematic?

[Hawkeye Fierce]

no, I think only daggerfall had more than one province (it had3? or some huge number, considering their size)

Morrowind wasnt even Morowind, it was just the island up top.

Arena's the one that had more than one province. It had all of Tamriel, actually, but since all the wilderness was randomly generated, and the towns, with a few exceptions, were all built on a few random layouts, that didn't really mean much. You couldn't actually walk from one place to another, you had to use fast travel to get anywhere.

Daggerfall was set in the province of Hammerfell, with a few outlying areas included as well, although it was still ginormous. I think you still had to use fast travel to get anywhere in that one too.

[steve]

I look forward to the mods that disable the concurrent levelling. I always did think it was stupid. Strength of enemies should be dependent on where you are.
While I understand this (and also like the idea of being a badass that just destroys everything around him), this screws up the idea you can go anywhere at any time. If the strenght of enemies is dependent on your location, you're making the game more linear. Everyone would have to go from A to B to C, instead of doing it in whatever order you want.

[Bill Dungsroman]

I always name my first character in an RPG Pickles. Guarantees a restart.

[shang]

While I understand this (and also like the idea of being a badass that just destroys everything around him), this screws up the idea you can go anywhere at any time. If the strenght of enemies is dependent on your location, you're making the game more linear. Everyone would have to go from A to B to C, instead of doing it in whatever order you want.

I don't see those as a problem. On the contrary, if the whole world is accesible from the get go and I can go ANYWHERE and meet the exact same enemies, it devalues the different areas in my mind. The linear progression isn't that bad if A, B and C are large enough to be non-linear internally.

Having some areas with really strong monsters just adds character to those areas. Like e.g. having a swamp area with really nasty swamp monsters that cannot be handled by a lvl 1 character. I think that's a much more compelling world than one that is 100% open to characters of all levels.

[EvilIdler]

every bandit type I fought at 14th level had orcish, so it sure looks like way.
Elven comes up soon after, so does ebony. At level 16, I encountered bandits
with both in a ruin. Of course, the very fact they had plundered the ruin
might have something to do with that, as anything not worn by a bandit
was iron, sometimes steel.

[McBain]

Question,

If a bandit was carrying around a tidy fortune in precious, artifact armor, would he really still be hanging around the highway trying to jack random couriers on their way from point A to point B?

[Charles]

While I understand this (and also like the idea of being a badass that just destroys everything around him), this screws up the idea you can go anywhere at any time. If the strenght of enemies is dependent on your location, you're making the game more linear. Everyone would have to go from A to B to C, instead of doing it in whatever order you want.

It didn't hurt games like Gothic 2, or classics like Ultima 7.

I don't agree that making enemy strength dependent on location makes the game more linear. It helps shape where you can go, but if you want to go in a direction, you still can. You just have to spend a little more time getting stronger, which I think is completely reasonable.

At the very least, enemy skills should increase, while their loot does not. The idea of all the loot coming to me, rather than me needing to explore and find it, is annoying.

[Belisarius]

I dunno if this is screwing me or not, but if I level and I haven't increased in skills that will get me decent stat bonuses, I just don't go to sleep.

AFAIK this does not work. Your advancement for the level is set when you achieve the level. i.e. when you hit 10 points in your primary skills. Waiting does not improve your stat gains.


What?


(the planetcrap invasion is now complete)

Yeah, people who can play the game? Please say it was the fact that they ignored the main storyline that pissed you off... that would be awesome because it would clearly indicate this game is not for you!
OK, you don't like it. However some of us who have played previous Bestheda games understand the system and have no problem playing along fairly naturally without screwing our characters. You don't believe it fine, try fiddling with that difficulty slider. That way you can play in this mythical "way I think it should be" way. Ahh, sorry. Forgot that lowering the difficulty would indicate a lack of real balls, thus questioning your essential masculinity as indicated by computer game playing.

Disclaimer: Sorry for the above rant, but I really fail to see what EpicBoy said wrong. It pretty much sounded like my experience, and I fail to see why this indicates that I am a "planetcrap" invader. People seem to struggle with this game because they A) don't understand or like the skill to level system (which has been in place since at least Daggerfall... I did not play Arena so can't say if it was there) or B) somehow find themselves incapable of using a difficulty slider. Hint: it slides...

[Matthew Gallant]

Question,

If a bandit was carrying around a tidy fortune in precious, artifact armor, would he really still be hanging around the highway trying to jack random couriers on their way from point A to point B?
How dare you question the motives provided to him by the miracle of Radiant AI?

[Charles]

My reply had absolutly nothing to do whatsoever with what epicboy said.

[BobJustBob]

Question,

If a bandit was carrying around a tidy fortune in precious, artifact armor, would he really still be hanging around the highway trying to jack random couriers on their way from point A to point B?

Ask that of Gordon Gekko.

[Belisarius]

My reply had absolutly nothing to do whatsoever with what epicboy said.

Ahh. The fact that you quoted him in text fooled me. Subtract angry rant then... but what the hell were you talking about? I can follow what he said, and it seems on point.

[Charles]

It's an in-joke.

[Matt Perkins]

It's an in-joke.
The less you know about it, the better.

[Matt Perkins]

While I understand this (and also like the idea of being a badass that just destroys everything around him), this screws up the idea you can go anywhere at any time. If the strenght of enemies is dependent on your location, you're making the game more linear. Everyone would have to go from A to B to C, instead of doing it in whatever order you want.
Here's why the idea fails in practice, at least in Oblivion. If I don't level up in combat skills, the monsters are actually getting stronger than me as I level up. That's completely silly.

The level number Oblivion uses is a arbitrary number not related what you're actually doing in the game. So the monsters being keyed off that number is going to screw people if they don't realize what the systems means.



Also, in general, I don't like the idea. How do I feel like I've gotten more powerful? By completing story objectives? The idea of monsters always being my level ruins that whole idea.

[Belisarius]

Presupposing a superior position to the poster quoted? Most jokes have a target. Add angry rant once more...

I have read (most of) your posts about your dislikes. I disagree, based on my experiences. The whole point of the Bestheda games has been to allow the player to go wherever they want from the very start. I like this freedom, you (along with many others) find it to cause more problems that it is worth. We can disagree.

[DeepT]

So are mages actually viable in this game? I do not mean is it simply possible to play one, but being able to adventure most of the time without having to drink manna poitions or camp after every encounter.

Also, how does being a theif work in the long run? Is it possible to steal a lot of stuff and sell it or do things get magically tagged as stolen all the time?

[WarrenM]

Also, how does being a theif work in the long run? Is it possible to steal a lot of stuff and sell it or do things get magically tagged as stolen all the time?
When you join the Thieves Guild you get access to fences who will take your stolen items. I don't think you can ever do it via regular merchants.

[metta]

I'm playing purely as a thief. I'm not a killer. I steal stuff. So, no Dark Brotherhood for me (even though I found a really interesting door in the basement of an abandoned house, that I'm curious about) and no killing unless it's self defence.

When you join the Thieves Guild you get access to a fence that will buy your stolen goods. Items do get tagged as stolen so you have to be careful when you attempt actions that may get you arrested. I had a stolen quest item that I couldn't lose, so I had to make sure I didn't get arrested before delivery. (When you're arrested the bulls take all your stolen loot.)

So far, I've found it possible to play as a thief. :)

[Charles]

So are mages actually viable in this game? I do not mean is it simply possible to play one, but being able to adventure most of the time without having to drink manna poitions or camp after every encounter.

So far, mana regens fast enough that it hasn't been an issue for me. Even if I drain most of it (which I don't often do despite constant casting), it only takes a few seconds to regen to the point where I can go blasting in to the next room as well.

The hotkeys, however, are a different story altogether.

[DeepT]

So I guess it wouldnt be wise to start stealing shit until you get into the theives guild then. Whenever I get this game (or if), I plan on going the theif route, proabbly as an assasin too.

After reading the first impressions thread (well several pages of it), I think ill hold off on oblivion because of all the problems people seem to have. Maybe after a few patches Ill buy it.

[olaf]

That +5 always mod is something I am going to try. It will remove the incentive for me to powerlevel skills, which I do but is not very fun.

olaf

[Dave Markell]

Here's why the idea fails in practice, at least in Oblivion. If I don't level up in combat skills, the monsters are actually getting stronger than me as I level up. That's completely silly.

Total truth. It applies more to some character concepts than others, of course, but it's a pretty big problem. I think a much better approach is to give mobs level ranges but not change their type. In other words, weaker regions would feature some goblin caves. Those goblins would have a range of capped levels (like they do now) but would always be goblins even if you visit their den when you're 3 times higher than their cap. Their loot would be useless to you, but you'd get the feeling of "wow, I'm strong now" that Oblivion largely lacks. This would also enable builds that focus on non-combat attributes to find encounters that match not their absolute level but their combat ability.

[Moore]

I'm playing purely as a thief. I'm not a killer. I steal stuff. So, no Dark Brotherhood for me (even though I found a really interesting door in the basement of an abandoned house, that I'm curious about) and no killing unless it's self defence.

When you join the Thieves Guild you get access to a fence that will buy your stolen goods. Items do get tagged as stolen so you have to be careful when you attempt actions that may get you arrested. I had a stolen quest item that I couldn't lose, so I had to make sure I didn't get arrested before delivery. (When you're arrested the bulls take all your stolen loot.)


So far, I've found it possible to play as a thief. :)

You can steal back your stolen, confiscated loot. Makes for a nice self made mission actually.

[steve]

Here's why the idea fails in practice, at least in Oblivion. If I don't level up in combat skills, the monsters are actually getting stronger than me as I level up. That's completely silly.
I don't disagree, but the issue is that it seems people are reducing the game to its math. Generally speaking, I don't take this approach because I don't really care about what's going on under the hood. I just want to play it, not game it. It seems like a lot of the bitching is due to min/max types who want to figure out the quickest way to get super powerful; there's no real way to do that now, which is interesting from a design perspective. (And is probably a bad idea, since people do want to feel uber powerful.)

I wonder what would happen if people didn't know the monsters scaled with your character, and it wasn't something people could easily discover? Would you just assume you were going through some sort of advancement, and the game was getting progressively more difficult? It makes sense that the game does get harder on some sort of curve. It's exactly what happens in a more linear game.


Also, in general, I don't like the idea. How do I feel like I've gotten more powerful? By completing story objectives? The idea of monsters always being my level ruins that whole idea.
It's just as game-y as the idea that adding another number to your strength lets you carry more stuff. The idea of stats and numbers is an overly simplistic and game-y way of conveying your power. In a first-person game, you can't pull this off, but in a third-person game, you tend to look more badass as you get better loot. That's generally enough for me.

I like the idea of your character getting more muscles when he or she gets stronger, and having scars, that sort of thing. Fable tried to do this, and was successful to some extent. It's a niftier idea than just making it a spreadsheet. MMOs are the worst in this regard, with people obsessing over DIPS values. Ugh, how boring. (Though I know people dig this kind of thing.)

[Matt Perkins]

I don't disagree, but the issue is that it seems people are reducing the game to its math. Generally speaking, I don't take this approach because I don't really care about what's going on under the hood. I just want to play it, not game it. It seems like a lot of the bitching is due to min/max types who want to figure out the quickest way to get super powerful; there's no real way to do that now, which is interesting from a design perspective. (And is probably a bad idea, since people do want to feel uber powerful.)

I wonder what would happen if people didn't know the monsters scaled with your character, and it wasn't something people could easily discover? Would you just assume you were going through some sort of advancement, and the game was getting progressively more difficult? It makes sense that the game does get harder on some sort of curve. It's exactly what happens in a more linear game.
I admit, when I play an RPG, I like to feel powerful as I go up in levels. Or skills. Or whatever. Part of the enjoyment for me is the getting stronger in the game, in one way or another.

I did start to look at this after I couldn't take down Imps but with a LOT of work, or bandits with the same (where as before it was easier). I have since found out having items in really bad repair (which most everything on me is) is also very bad.

But however I started looking, I still think it's perfectly viable to talk about the design of a game and how it affects gameplay.

To be fair, this isn't going to ruin Oblivion for me. But it does make me think maybe I rolled poorly to start (I have leveled off getting a lot in Sneak and Speechcraft) or that I should ALWAYS practice my combat skills before leveling (if that works, seen both ways claimed). That really breaks away from how I had been thinking about it, just playing my character and taking the levels as they came.



It's just as game-y as the idea that adding another number to your strength lets you carry more stuff. The idea of stats and numbers is an overly simplistic and game-y way of conveying your power. In a first-person game, you can't pull this off, but in a third-person game, you tend to look more badass as you get better loot. That's generally enough for me.

I like the idea of your character getting more muscles when he or she gets stronger, and having scars, that sort of thing. Fable tried to do this, and was successful to some extent. It's a niftier idea than just making it a spreadsheet. MMOs are the worst in this regard, with people obsessing over DIPS values. Ugh, how boring. (Though I know people dig this kind of thing.) I don't think comparing rules of a system that MIGHT severely limit types of characters in a system that touts is openness as a huge feature isn't the same as saying "strength is a number, this game is too gamey!"

[Charles]

I don't disagree, but the issue is that it seems people are reducing the game to its math. Generally speaking, I don't take this approach because I don't really care about what's going on under the hood. I just want to play it, not game it. It seems like a lot of the bitching is due to min/max types who want to figure out the quickest way to get super powerful; there's no real way to do that now, which is interesting from a design perspective. (And is probably a bad idea, since people do want to feel uber powerful.)

I wonder what would happen if people didn't know the monsters scaled with your character, and it wasn't something people could easily discover? Would you just assume you were going through some sort of advancement, and the game was getting progressively more difficult? It makes sense that the game does get harder on some sort of curve. It's exactly what happens in a more linear game.

It's not necessarily about math, or gaming the system.

Consider: I start the game, a rat takes three hits to kill, and if I walked in on the big bad foozle, he would most likely kill me before I had a chance to pee my pants.

Fast forward 80 some play hours. I can now take on foozle with a reasonable chance of success. However, a rat still takes three hits to kill.

Does that not break immersion for you? How about if it's a roadside bandit? At first, they kick your ass. Because you suck. Then you get better... and he still kicks your ass? Or maybe you can just squeak by. Then 80 hours pass and you are super-bad-ass-of-the-month, but roadside bandits are still giving you a run for your money.

How does this represent character advancement? If I start as someone who's just picked up a sword, and end as a super-master, why on earth should I not A) easily take out filler enemies, and B) get bigger challenges to make me feel like I'm getting somewhere?

Scaling enemy levels defeats both A and B, since your situation is always B. I have this slight suspicion that if I ran in to foozle at level 1 in Oblivion, I'd be able to throw some rocks at him and he'd die.

I don't want this. I don't want a constant level of difficulty in all situations. I want situations in which the difficulty decreases while at the same time situations in which the difficulty increases.

[Keith]

I don't disagree, but the issue is that it seems people are reducing the game to its math. Generally speaking, I don't take this approach because I don't really care about what's going on under the hood. I just want to play it, not game it. It seems like a lot of the bitching is due to min/max types who want to figure out the quickest way to get super powerful; there's no real way to do that now, which is interesting from a design perspective. (And is probably a bad idea, since people do want to feel uber powerful.)

I wonder what would happen if people didn't know the monsters scaled with your character, and it wasn't something people could easily discover? Would you just assume you were going through some sort of advancement, and the game was getting progressively more difficult? It makes sense that the game does get harder on some sort of curve. It's exactly what happens in a more linear game.

The problem is that the way Oblivion has implemented this leveling system, people are forced to become min-maxers who game the skill system or else they face an impossible level of difficulty at higher levels.

The official boards are littered with people who knew nothing about the system, played casually leveling up like mad because they, heaven forbid, heavily used their "major" skills, and then found themselves being thoroughly trounced by random furry woodland creatures. Or they tried Kavatch for the first time at level 18, and watched as a ridiculously overpowered demonic swarm obliterated them and their guard companions in seconds.

If the devs had hid the way the leveling system worked, you'd still have people making these complaints, and noticing that they are stronger relative to the world at level 1 than they are at level 20.

[Backov]

That's my fear - I'm putting off Kvatch since I'm seeing stronger monsters past the gate now.. But if I put it off too long, am I going to be just creamed by REALLY high level Daedra?

[Dave Markell]

That's my fear - I'm putting off Kvatch since I'm seeing stronger monsters past the gate now.. But if I put it off too long, am I going to be just creamed by REALLY high level Daedra?

That depends on whether really high level Daedra cream you or not. Can you fight more than one at a time with your build? Then no worries. Do they wipe the floor with you? Then say goodbye to the main quest until you fix your character (through consistently gaming the leveling system, rerolling, modding, or lowering the difficulty slider).

[Dave Long]

The main quest really shouldn't be tied into the levelling system.

[None-1a]

I don't want this. I don't want a constant level of difficulty in all situations. I want situations in which the difficulty decreases while at the same time situations in which the difficulty increases.

When you know how Oblivion's system actaully works it does give you just that.
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=293980 is a good primer on out it really works. I've looked through the level list myself and that is mostly accurate with a few exeptions. Imps being the biggest which are one of the few low level creatures to level along with you, even then they only have a max level of 3 and at a -1 offset.

[TheWombat]

Sheesh, I guess people just have very different experiences and expectations. I'm at levle 19 or 20, and hell yeah, I feel more powerful than I did fifteen levels ago. Rats still die in one sword swing, necromancers take a few more, two or three decent bow shots kill non-armored casting mobs (from stealth, of course), and armored foes take me a while as I'm a stealth/agility build. But I have so damn many potions, scrolls, magic weapons, etc. that I don't really have much of a problem prevailing. Sure, some save/reload is necessary, but that's par for the course as well.

I chalk up the bandits in good gear to, well, smart bandits. You have your rejects and wannabes preying on the weak, and your bandit elite preying on the well equipped and more lucrative targets. Even if that justification is weak, it doesn't bother me. I don't mind level-defined areas in an MMO--it works great in WoW or EQ2 or whatever--but in a single player game I much prefer the Bethesda approach of "go where you wanna, we'll make sure it's a challenge."

Just my $0.02. And from what I've seen (in 25 hours or so of play) there are indeed areas that you don't want to go to without gearing up and preparing, which usually equates as well to leveling. The stat bonuses you get via leveling really do affect a lot of what you do in combat, too. But sure, you could make a case for a different system--no problem there. I just don't find the existing system a burden.

And I never delay leveling, I'm playing a stock class, and I'm finding the loot to be fine. Each dungeon has something I need or really like in it, either in a chest or on a mob, and there is none of the "two hours to clear this and all I get is a bundle of iron arrows" either.

I suppose it all boils down to what you like, how you play, and your own personal experience with the game.

[awdougherty]

While I understand this (and also like the idea of being a badass that just destroys everything around him), this screws up the idea you can go anywhere at any time. If the strenght of enemies is dependent on your location, you're making the game more linear. Everyone would have to go from A to B to C, instead of doing it in whatever order you want.

But going anywhere at any time to the point of completely breaking the suspension of disbelief feels like a much greater sin than a linearity that at least feels realistic. And in some ways it's even worse than being linear because the whole world is A at all times.

To me, linear is when an area doesn't really exist until requirements A,B, and C are met. Having an area that will smack my ass down at this particular moment in time doesn't feel linear. In fact, toughening up enough to go explore an area would provide a nice little goal for me to set for myself. Not all those areas have to be plot essential, they just have to exist and be badass.

This "go anywhere anytime" feels like it's going to be the achilles heal of Oblivion. Bethesda seemed to have taken in to a fault.

[Backov]

The main quest really shouldn't be tied into the levelling system.

Agreed. But it is, unfortunately.

[Dave Markell]

But going anywhere at any time to the point of completely breaking the suspension of disbelief feels like a much greater sin than a linearity that at least feels realistic.

Agreed. It would be like the Fellowship hitting Moria and not finding the Balrog there because they weren't high enough level yet. Or like this quote from the strategy guide (which I just bought) on a random quest dungeon I was frustrated by:


If you're level 23 or higher, you'll face the Lich....However, if you're level 22 or below, you'll find only an unkillable ghost there.

I mean, come on. Spawn the lich and have it destroy me. Let me learn my lesson about how the game world works. Don't save me from myself by spawning an unkillable ghost that I waste an hour trying to figure out how to beat only to learn that I can't.

[awdougherty]

If you're level 23 or higher, you'll face the Lich....However, if you're level 22 or below, you'll find only an unkillable ghost there.

That there is some weak shit.

[Tom McNamara]

I underestimated the value of the Illusion school and didn't select it as a primary. Night-Eyes and Invisibility are very, very helpful in dungeons.

In fact, Invisibility might be too helpful, as it instantly renders the AI completely unaware of your presence, even after combat is initiated. I've been able to crawl from one end of a dungeon to the other without getting in a single fight. I think if you bump into someone, they should kind of notice you. Instead, I can actually push monsters out of my way in a narrow corridor. I expected that at least the undead could see me when I'm invisible, but I'm a perfect shadow when I cast that spell. (I also think it's odd that I can see undead when I cast Life Detect, but whatever). There's no counter to invis, apparently, since the caster AI that I've encountered -- at level 17 and about 25 hours into the game -- doesn't think to cast Life Detect when I go invisible. Damage drains also don't purge invis from me. I can loot from containers with near impunity, as long as I recast as soon as I close the loot window.

I've also noticed that the Charm spell's cost is heavily weighted towards duration, instead of magnitude. It's possible to cast a one- or two-second charm that increases disposition by 100 points -- plenty enough time to turn a recalcitrant NPC into your new best friend, and it costs negligible mana. Speechcraft? Mercantile skill? Irrelevant, once you get into the Arcane Uni and can craft your own spell. Time stops when you initiate conversation, making spell duration a non-issue here. I also have yet to encounter anyone who's resisted the effect, unlike Paralyze. You may also notice that you get much better prices from NPCs when you boost their disposition towards you.

[Ben Sones]

Fast forward 80 some play hours. I can now take on foozle with a reasonable chance of success. However, a rat still takes three hits to kill.

Does that not break immersion for you?

It would, if rats scaled in level. But they don't. Humans/humanoids like bandits do, but that makes as much sense as you scaling in level, so I don't see the immersion issue.

[scharmers]

This "go anywhere anytime" feels like it's going to be the achilles heal of Oblivion.

There's places you don't want to go if you're a newbie in Oblivion. Like, say, Oblivion. Bethesda serious ramped up the minor daedra (scamps, clannfear).

And besides, there's no achilles heal in a fully modifiable game. Or an achilles heel, for that matter.

[Dave Markell]

It would, if rats scaled in level. But they don't. Humans/humanoids like bandits do, but that makes as much sense as you scaling in level, so I don't see the immersion issue.

Rats have a max level of one and don't scale, right. Instead, they are replaced. The rat you'd fight at level one is the brown bear you fight at level 16 instead. There is still a chance for a rat, but it drops fast as your level increases. Note also that the highest level creatures types do scale in level. Brown bears, Xivilai, Dremora Valkynaz, Goblin Warlords, Minotaur Lords, and Liches continue to level with you, and they're the baddies that replace the low level enemies. Humanoids and Daedra scale too, of course.

[awdougherty]

Whoops, well I'll let my typo stand as written. I've heard though that people doing the first Oblivion gate at low levels breezed through it if they were a low level where waiting a bit to take it on got them smacked. Or is that not really the same as going to Oblivion?

[RepoMan]

Once again, the mod community game to my rescue. This (http://files.filefront.com/plus5alwaysesp/;4919583;;/fileinfo.html) mod ensures that, if you increased a skill based on that stat even once during your current level, you get a +5 when you level up.
WTF is an ".esp" file? How do I use it? No .readme or anything else in this sucker....

[BobJustBob]

I closed the Kvatch gate at level 2 at the default difficulty. I had to stop and let my Magicka recharge so I could use my puny minor heal spell, but I still made it through in one shot.

[Moore]

WTF is an ".esp" file? How do I use it? No .readme or anything else in this sucker....


Same as Morrowind

Put it in data files, and select it in the launcher, if its like MW, which I think it is.

[DrDel]

(mild spoilers included in the following post)

Like many of you, I've been obsessively playing Oblivion. Unlike most of you, I keep replaying the early stages due to my dissatisfactions with the character system. Here is the sordid tale of my many playthroughs and the mods that eventually made me happy.

My first character was designed to be a throwaway. I wanted to experiment with various skills and see how the game engine treated them. He never got very far, but served his purpose. Version 2, however, was designed to be more permanent. I made a Breton specialized in magic but who also took blunt, block, and heavy armor as three of his primary skills so that he could do something besides run away when he ran out of mana (I tend to like tank mages in single player games anyway since there's no backup). The other 4 skills were, as you would expect, magical.

This character was fun, effective, and leveled WAY too fast. I joined the mage's guild at the first opportunity and focused on doing the quests for each chapter house so that I could be admitted to the Imperial Academy and design my own spells/items, always a highlight for me in TES games. By the time I got my mage staff, I was level 14 and had never fought a single goblin, scamp, wolf, etc. because the mage quests use primarily human foes and the game's insistence on generating leveled content had blasted me by all the low level monsters. I was outleveling vast swathes of content, which I hate. I was sure that this (http://www.tessource.net/files/file.php?id=1820) mod would be my salvation. With it, I could make skills up to ten times harder to increase, massively slowing down my leveling and ensuring I wouldn't miss most of the game's creatures.

So, of course, I restarted again. Slow leveling worked just as planned. I fought goblins. I fought wolves. I was happy. Sort of. The problem now was that I'd gotten a handle on the mechanics of attribute increase, thanks to this and other forums. Increase skills based on a particular stat 10 times before you level and you get a +5 stat boost, increase them 8 and you get a +4, etc. Min-maxer that I am, I wanted to be sure that my keys stats got those +5's. However, my character as designed had huge problems with that. Since most of my favorite skills/stats were primaries, using them also leveled me. There was absolutely no way I could get 3 +5's with my current build. I felt that I needed them, too. My first real character (the one that hit level 14) didn't get good stat increases when he leveled, and he felt weaker (compared to his leveled foes) every time as a result.

So, of course, I restarted yet again, making the skills I actually cared about minors and taking controllable junk skills for my majors. This, too, worked, but was just too tedious and gamey for my tastes. I had to watch skill use like a hawk, to the point that immersion was blown. Once again, the mod community game to my rescue. This (http://files.filefront.com/plus5alwaysesp/;4919583;;/fileinfo.html) mod ensures that, if you increased a skill based on that stat even once during your current level, you get a +5 when you level up.

Now, I'm happy again. I've made the game both much slower (by reducing my rate of skill increasem typically 3x) and less gamey (by ensuring I get the top stat mod when I level). I can create the character I want and play the game my way.

Until I find my next problem, anyway :-)


You had a problem of levelling too fast?

I have been playing for 30 hours and I am still level 2!!

I can't level fast enough...

[Dave Markell]

You had a problem of levelling too fast?

I have been playing for 30 hours and I am still level 2!!

Are you using your major skills at all??? I hit level 14 in less than 8 hours of play, and I was learning the game at the same time...

[Qenan]

Arena's the one that had more than one province. It had all of Tamriel, actually, but since all the wilderness was randomly generated, and the towns, with a few exceptions, were all built on a few random layouts, that didn't really mean much. You couldn't actually walk from one place to another, you had to use fast travel to get anywhere.

Daggerfall was set in the province of Hammerfell, with a few outlying areas included as well, although it was still ginormous. I think you still had to use fast travel to get anywhere in that one too.

No, Daggerfall had parts of both High Rock and Hammerfell, and maybe a bit beyond (can't remember for sure). See http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/

You didn't have to use fast travel, but it was kind of slow on foot.

[Qenan]

BTW, while Daggerfall had its faults, it was the best game for introducing a feeling of scale I've ever played.

[Dave Long]

Are you using your major skills at all??? I hit level 14 in less than 8 hours of play, and I was learning the game at the same time...

I'm only at Level 4 after something like 18 hours on the clock. If you don't spend all your time hitting shit, you level a lot slower.

[Quaro]

How fast you level is entirely determined by what skills you picked. You'll be at level 4 in minutes if you immediately start talking to NPCs and making potions.

[Enidigm]

For those having a hard time finding a happy medium in their character creation:

Play a pre-built character template.

Now don't crucify me! I know that may sound like anathama to most of you, but the pre-made templates are really very fun; and for the first time, i think they work better here in Oblivion then in any of the other TES games.

They work because they combine some neat strengths AND neat weaknesses. Forcing you to adapt your playstyle around those attributes.

Like, for example, the Sorceror. Now he's a tough cookie, with tons of magic, endurance and heavy armor. Traded Enchantment for Restoration, so he can heal himself easily. Will have a ton of hitpoints and can wear Daedric Armor. But he lacks any weapon skills and is helpless when he runs out of mana. He's heavy and slow and doesn't use Strength normally, so that armor will really slow him down. Without athletics he'll be even slower. So you get a powerful spellthrowing badboy with lots of hitpoints and armor - but whom can't escape from a losing fight.

The Witchhunter is the total opposite. Lacking any melee weapons as well, but is very very fast. The Witchhunter dishes out damage from afar but has to run from melee. Has no armor at all. But can push out some pretty wicked ranged damage with alchemy (poison arrows), destruction and Summoning.

The Archer is actualy the opposite. Has light armor and good melee skills. Can switch between ranged and melee with ease. But lacks the spellcasting ability.

The Knight uses illusion magic and speechcraft, but not mercantile.

Many of the combat classes don't use any magic at all. Ect.

I like both the emphasis on certain traits and the situations it creates of the pre-built classes. Just going Block/Heavy/Restoration/Alchemy/Destruction/Blade/Armorer is too easy a choice for a combat class.

[Belisarius]

This "go anywhere anytime" feels like it's going to be the achilles heal of Oblivion. Bethesda seemed to have taken in to a fault.

Meh. This go anywhere mechanic is the reason I play the game. I agree that it has a real potential to break immersion for people (although I am still not having any problems with the difficulty). Then again at least one person has been posting to say that they hate the fact that you can wander away from a quest, come back, and it is frozen at the same point. They wanted the quests to fail if you abandon it. I hate this idea. The whole of the Bestheda system is based on the notion that you decide what to do at any point. Bored of fighting this daedric invasion? Go explore lost Elven ruins or rob houses!

Plus I find it hard to believe that the people who are making these claims really did not use the "go anywhere" option. I pretty much think that if you hit the first obivion gate at L14 you must have been doing something else for quite some time. I mean the King is dead... hurry hurry, run to find the heir! Wait, why are you robbing houses and talking to random people at this time of crisis? There is a storyline to follow! And if you had followed the storyline you would have hit the first oblivion gate at about L3-4, realised that there are some nasty creatures coming through, survived (because you had not had time to ruin your character yet) and also had a good opportunity to practice all those skills that will keep you alive at later levels.

Immersion is where you find it. I spent a long time the other night in the northern mountains following the words of a long dead soldier to find a ruined keep. I found the statue just as the light was failing, by the time I had passed through the caves to the valley of the fortress it was dark. As I stalked through the falling snow the first warning I had of any ogre was their grunting breath. I was totally immersed. It is totally immersion breaking to think that I should be saving the heir rather than wasting my time artifact hunting. Any game that lets you abandon your responsibilities as such to go and have "fun" without repercussions is obviously not realistic. And yet it is the game I will play again and again, because I prefer it to being railroaded through a central plot on a timer. The bonus stuff I get is worth the effort I need to suspend disbelief.

You too can get the same experience. Play your first character through and focus on the main quest. It is, within the game story, pretty urgent. Then afterwards play the game again as a carefree soul who totally ignores the main quest and does what s/he wants. Your problem seems to be that the game lets you do everything, so you do, then you complain that it let you. Introduce your own restrictions then! Good lord I hope Bestheda never listens to you, as the combined recommendations would take from this game everything I like about it.

/end rant

[foogla]

stuff

You, Sir, are my Hero. A legend among lurkers.

See you next year. :)

[DeepT]

Oh man, this sounds like some really bad game design here.

If decied to start messing with alchemy and picking berries and making potions, and somehow I get to level 10 without fighting anyone, now I am totally hosed? WTF? That is just bad, bad game design anyway you look at it.

It would be ok for the main quest to be character level based, however, the rest of the world should not be, so that if you neglected your combat skills, you can still go out and do other fixed level quests to train up you combat skills.

Although it would seem more reasonable for the main story to be fixed levels, giving you milestones. So you can do part 1 at levels 1 to 5. Part 2 requires you to be level 10, so that means between 5 and 10 you must wander the world doing other misc quests and stuff.

Your a game developer and you want people to explore your world? That mechanic is the perfect way to do it.

[WarrenM]

Quite frankly, they can't tune the game to work for every person in every class in every play style. There are always going to be paths in the rock/paper/scissors game of character creation/development that are going to lead to characters who will have a very hard go of things. There's not a lot that can be done outside of restricting options but that's the last thing that I want them to do. I love being able to go whereever I want and explore whatever I feel like (or can lockpick).

[Charles]

It would, if rats scaled in level. But they don't. Humans/humanoids like bandits do, but that makes as much sense as you scaling in level, so I don't see the immersion issue.

It might make sense if you, you know, didn't kill them as soon as you encountered them. How do they level if you kill them? Are you telling me that as you kill bandits, nature provides better bandits? There just happens to be a ready supply of sword-master bandits, waiting in the wings? They watch from the shadows and send out their appropriate bandit?

It's immersion breaking. The same as suddenly seeing bears where I once only saw rats. I've been playing for 3-4 hours and haven't seen any bears in the forest. Why?

It just doesn't make any sense. If anything, they should've gone the Gothic 2 route of spawning new and stronger enemies after major game events (chapter switches in gothic, but could be handled differently in oblivion).

I liked the previous example of moria. It does highlight well where I feel there's a problem with the game.

Time will tell if it's deal breaking or not, but I certainly don't like it on paper, and I certainly wouldn't build a game around it.

[Gordon Cameron]

If decied to start messing with alchemy and picking berries and making potions, and somehow I get to level 10 without fighting anyone, now I am totally hosed? WTF? That is just bad, bad game design anyway you look at it.

Well I guess potentially you could get through tough battles just by quaffing lots of potions and stacking beneficial effects. I bet it's doable, but would be fussy in terms of interface and therefore not much fun.

[Gordon Cameron]

It might make sense if you, you know, didn't kill them as soon as you encountered them. How do they level if you kill them? Are you telling me that as you kill bandits, nature provides better bandits? There just happens to be a ready supply of sword-master bandits, waiting in the wings? They watch from the shadows and send out their appropriate bandit?

It's immersion breaking. The same as suddenly seeing bears where I once only saw rats. I've been playing for 3-4 hours and haven't seen any bears in the forest. Why?

It just doesn't make any sense. If anything, they should've gone the Gothic 2 route of spawning new and stronger enemies after major game events (chapter switches in gothic, but could be handled differently in oblivion).

I liked the previous example of moria. It does highlight well where I feel there's a problem with the game.

Time will tell if it's deal breaking or not, but I certainly don't like it on paper, and I certainly wouldn't build a game around it.

Yeah, it's a bit goofy the more I play it. I'd rather see the odd bear in the forest and you know to avoid him or run away. It's also getting weirder and weirder seeing everyone with elven/mithril armor and glass weapons. I guess they will all be full Daedra some day.

I think there is a place for scaling spawns but I would leave it more to the McDungeons while still maintaining a degree of statickness to the outside world. As long as there are enough places for you to go kick butt when you are uber, you won't really resent the absence of formidable foes just outside town. Maybe 60-70% of quests could scale but there could be a few "elite" quests (given to you by the local baron or by the guilds) which you shouldn't attempt until you are high level and the danger of which you would be warned about.

You could even make the McDungeons more static just by organizing them in tiers. A goblin hovel < an abandoned mine < an Elven ruin < a dragon's lair and so forth. This might be unintuitive for some people but I think you could put enough NPC clues and whatnot to make the general gist available. This does make certain areas "off limits" at first though, which is a turnoff for some and against the general approach of elder scrolls. On the upside, you now have more things around which to construct long term goals (some day I'm gonna get into that dragon's lair and find uber loot!).

I wasn't aware actually that Gothic 2 had any scaling spawns at all. If I go back and replay it with NotR I will have to look at it a bit more closely. I know the Gothics always featured creatures even at the beginning who were pretty much unbeatable until you get stronger.

[Belisarius]

If decied to start messing with alchemy and picking berries and making potions, and somehow I get to level 10 without fighting anyone, now I am totally hosed? WTF? That is just bad, bad game design anyway you look at it.

If you get 10 levels as a result of practising alchemy you are an alchemist. It is little wonder that you get your ass handed to you by any combatant. Why should an alchemist be able to kick ass like a ninja? I got those 10 levels by killing heaps of things.
I fail to see how this is bad game design... bad player-character managment yes, bad design no. The game let you do it, which is pretty much what I think "sandbox style" means. Don't blame the game for letting you do it. Ahh, so what you really want is to be a ninja alchemist? Maybe if you practise that ninja stuff?

Plus see again that wonderful (yet apparently invisible) difficulty slider.


It's immersion breaking. The same as suddenly seeing bears where I once only saw rats. I've been playing for 3-4 hours and haven't seen any bears in the forest. Why?

And suddenly moving to a new area which magically has stronger creatures is not? Why does anybody live in the new area with the nasty badguys? Why don't the nasty badguys move to the other area... they could really kick ass there? Any system that uses levels has to scale somehow, and this involves suspension of disbelief. For you it is enough to move to a new area. For me suddenly finding Bears in the woods works just fine. I assumed they were busy shitting until that point.

Given your WOW 1.10 post you don't sound like you like this game. Why are you trying to convince those of us who are playing it? Clearly you don't want to play in this type of sandbox game... let that be a warning for future purchases!

[awdougherty]

If you get 10 levels as a result of practising alchemy you are an alchemist. It is little wonder that you get your ass handed to you by any combatant. Why should an alchemist be able to kick ass like a ninja? I got those 10 levels by killing heaps of things.
I fail to see how this is bad game design... bad player-character managment yes, bad design no. The game let you do it, which is pretty much what I think "sandbox style" means. Don't blame the game for letting you do it. Ahh, so what you really want is to be a ninja alchemist? Maybe if you practise that ninja stuff?

Plus see again that wonderful (yet apparently invisible) difficulty slider.

Well, for me, the reason I see it as bad game design, sort of, is that it will let you get 10 levels of alchemy but can you then go use those 10 levels of alchemy to do stuff? The game is so combat heavy that eventually you have to fight. Can the alchemist put that skill toward defeating the badguys? I don't know, I never use much alchemy. If the alchemist could brew grenade potions or something, then it's not so bad, if the alchemist has to then stop and work up a blade skill, then it seems like some weaker design.



And suddenly moving to a new area which magically has stronger creatures is not? Why does anybody live in the new area with the nasty badguys? Why don't the nasty badguys move to the other area... they could really kick ass there? Any system that uses levels has to scale somehow, and this involves suspension of disbelief. For you it is enough to move to a new area. For me suddenly finding Bears in the woods works just fine. I assumed they were busy shitting until that point.
No it's not, because that's how things work. There can be a logic to the system of different areas being of different difficulties. My posse doesn't roll in the Brazilian rain forests or the African plains because I don't want to get eaten. But I could toughen up and become a better whatever and go take that shit on. And people don't live there except for people who have found ways to adapt, some of them by becoming tougher whatever types.

It's not magic, there are places that are tougher to exist in and fight through. If the point is to make a nice, real-feeling world, then the woods in Oblivion should have bears, boars, rats, wolves, and whatever else lives in woods at the same time. Some ruins should have rats, some should have trolls, some should have the undead. The Oblivion gates should have some badass stuff around it. Tough creatures and bandits should live and hide in these dangerous areas so that the inherent dangers scare off the bulk of the guards and riff-raff so the tough bandits can be left alone. Why some of these groups don't move around could be explained plausibly in the story and setting if you really wanted.

I don't feel any of this can be done with the system currently in place in Oblivion. In Oblivion, bandits walk around in uber-armor with uber-weapons. For me, that's a far worse immersion-breaker than wondering why these bandits haven't expanded their operations coast to coast.

[Matt Perkins]

If you get 10 levels as a result of practising alchemy you are an alchemist. It is little wonder that you get your ass handed to you by any combatant. Why should an alchemist be able to kick ass like a ninja? I got those 10 levels by killing heaps of things.
I fail to see how this is bad game design... bad player-character managment yes, bad design no. The game let you do it, which is pretty much what I think "sandbox style" means. Don't blame the game for letting you do it. Ahh, so what you really want is to be a ninja alchemist? Maybe if you practise that ninja stuff?
It's not bad game design...except, the monsters all know leveled. Not that you're an alchemist with no combat skills, but only that you leveled, so they leveled too. So now, without doing anything else in the world, the world just got incredibly fricking hard because you wanted to be an alchemist... That's poor game design, not poor character management. Don't tell the player they can be anything they want then tell them after 10 levels, "ummm...we kinda lied, sorry."



Plus see again that wonderful (yet apparently invisible) difficulty slider.
If I have to adjust the difficulty slider based upon how I created and played my character, that's a game flaw.



And suddenly moving to a new area which magically has stronger creatures is not? Why does anybody live in the new area with the nasty badguys? Why don't the nasty badguys move to the other area... they could really kick ass there? Any system that uses levels has to scale somehow, and this involves suspension of disbelief. For you it is enough to move to a new area. For me suddenly finding Bears in the woods works just fine. I assumed they were busy shitting until that point.
You're arguing in the wrong direction here. Having scaling monster isn't a horrible idea, not one I'd probaby use, but not a horrible idea. But, and this the problem, having scaling monster based upon an arbitrary level is a big design flaw. If they had instead based it off some sort of combat stats and hitpoints calculation, this game really would support you doing and being anything.

[Jazar]

I'd think that if you're a super alchemist then you could make potions that could A) increase the combat attributes, B) increase defense attributes, C) provide with better healing, and C) provide more damage with poison.

So the level 10 alchemist should be able to fight quite well I would imagine.

[DeanRaker]

You spent your resources poorly despite being given knowledge of the rules. An analogy would be building only fire stations in Sim City, and then complaining that you have no money or citizens. Gaining a level in Oblivion is like spending money in Sim City. In abstract terms, a "level" is a resource you spend in exchange for your major skills. So if you got to level 10 through alchemy, you paid the game 10 levels in order to get alchemy skills. You spent your resources poorly despite being given knowledge of the rules. Is that a design flaw? I'd say no; they're all solid mechanics in a game about character management. The only bad thing is that the mechanics aren't entirely obvious, especially the part about all enemies becoming more difficult as you level.

[Matt Perkins]

Dean

Yeah, the part I don't like is I didn't see anywhere in the manual or the game where it said, "if you level in non combat skills, you're pretty much screwed."

[TheWombat]

I don't think it's bad design to give players a lot of character build choices, and let some of them be gimped. And anyone who simply does nothing but alchemy, for instance, deserves to get whacked. Much of the game, though, can be finessed without combat, though yeah you'lre going to have to fight sometimes. But take Oblivion gates--you can actually shut them down without fighting a single mob if you have enough invis potions. So you don't have to tank or blast everything.

I guess I'm a little baffled, because at level 20 I'm not finding any of these allegedly evil problems to be having a detrimental effecct on my enjoyment. The bandits with fur armor and iron weapons would be idiots to attack me, so they don't--only the ones with decent gear make the attempt. I kill them easily, anyhow; they may be leveled but they sure as hell don't have my range of skills, gear, spells, and weapons.

I'll agree that the fauna situation is a bit odd; I'd like to see more diversity, yes. I still find level 1-ish rats and crabs in sewers, but bears have become extinct and replaced by mountain lions it seems. Then again, I still get regular old wolves too. One swing, no wolf.

And when I've taken on Daedra, I've found it's gotten easier as I leveled, not harder. The only ones that give me some trouble are the big croc-headed things, because they hit like a dump truck, but my bag of marksman/poison/enchanted weapon/potion tricks usually can kill most Daedra I meet in three arrow shots or so, maybe with a quick slash from the Daedric longsword to finish 'em off. I couldn't do that at level three or whatever it was when I went through the first gate.

Finally, even if everything people are saying is 100% true, that the game is severely flawed, it makes little difference to me, as I'm having more fun with this than any single player game in a long, long time.

[WarrenM]

I'm guessing it must be possible to win with any class or Bethesda wouldn't have included the non-fighter classes in the first place.

[Charles]

Given your WOW 1.10 post you don't sound like you like this game. Why are you trying to convince those of us who are playing it? Clearly you don't want to play in this type of sandbox game... let that be a warning for future purchases!

Oh noes! I have some criticisms about a game so I must actually hate it!

For your info, I'm mostly enjoying Oblivion so far, despite some percieved problems. Games aren't all good or all bad you know, there's usually a mix. My dig at oblivion in the WoW thread is because there's twenty fucking oblivion threads on the main page. And they are all having the same discussion.

[Dave Markell]

Finally, even if everything people are saying is 100% true, that the game is severely flawed, it makes little difference to me, as I'm having more fun with this than any single player game in a long, long time.

I enjoy it quite a bit myself, Bob. If I didn't like it so much, I wouldn't complain/mod/restart, I'd just shelve the title and move on. Oblivion as released is a good game with great potential and some glaring faults. I find it rewarding enough to work around the problems.

[Matt Perkins]

Yeah, don't get the idea I'm not having fun with it...Heck, I'd like to be at home playing it right now.

I just think the system has some flaws...and I think you're wrong about any class being able to hack it, "EpicBoy".

[SpoofyChop]

I just think the system has some flaws...and I think you're wrong about any class being able to hack it, "EpicBoy".

I think I'm going to have to agree with Matt. You definitely deserve to be encased in sneer quotes at the moment. Sorry guy.

[instant0]

Gotich 2 had nice difficulty on the mobs.. some mobs you just could'nt kill unless you leveled up a bit, like orcs, trolls etc...

So you level by doing quests, killing stuff, and then as you were more powerfull you could run and whack those mobs as well.

You could still explore, but you ran a fair chance of getting killed if you explored too far for your level.

Having the entire game world level with you, both in skills + Equipment is.. silly.

[Drastic]

Yeah, the part I don't like is I didn't see anywhere in the manual or the game where it said, "if you level in non combat skills, you're pretty much screwed."
What crpg doesn't center around combat utility being the most surefire way of survivability? I can count the ones I can think of on one finger--maybe two.

Not that I'm disputing it'd be nice if it took more fingers, because it would. It's just not a genre where it's likely to ever assume otherwise.

[Gordon Cameron]

It follows, then, that maybe the game mechanics shouldn't allow you to screw yourself by brewing potions.

If a game is as combat centric as Oblivion is (which IMO is pretty combat centric overall), and if to boot the mobs around you are leveling willy nilly, then maybe the old tradeskills/combat-skills division should be observed. Brewing potions all day will make you a better alchemist, banging a hammer all day will make you a better armorer, but they will not accelerate you toward higher levels of combat skill and difficulty.

I appreciate that ES games are supposed to be open ended and there is a bit of "caveat emptor" to factor in, but I also think these things can be done in moderation and with a certain amount of common sense.

However I suppose it is possible to win combat by being an uber alchemist. You would just have to brew a shitload of potions, drink them, and put them on your weapons.

I don't see any way that being an uber-armorer would cut it, though.

[GreasyPig]

Not that one more opinion matters but...

I fucking HATE this auto leveling bullshit!

No auto leveling ANYTIME ANYWHERE.

The only place I see as possibly exceptable is in the arena but even then given the choice, no way.

I guess its my first real RPG (not counting KOTOR) and I really like it. But come on, autoleveling is fucking stupid.

[Timemaster Tim]

I appreciate that ES games are supposed to be open ended and there is a bit of "caveat emptor" to factor in, but I also think these things can be done in moderation and with a certain amount of common sense.

Why does every game have to mollycoddle the gamer. Why must the player be prevented from developing into a character that will be difficult to play? I haven't got Oblivion yet, so perhaps this comment is off-base, but based on experience with Morrowind, but there's enough alternatives for doing things, and getting magical items to overcome deficiencies that railroading the character development isn't really necessary.

[Ranulf]

It might make sense if you, you know, didn't kill them as soon as you encountered them. How do they level if you kill them? Are you telling me that as you kill bandits, nature provides better bandits? There just happens to be a ready supply of sword-master bandits, waiting in the wings? They watch from the shadows and send out their appropriate bandit?

It's immersion breaking. The same as suddenly seeing bears where I once only saw rats. I've been playing for 3-4 hours and haven't seen any bears in the forest. Why?

It just doesn't make any sense.

No, no, no. See, those bandits you killed over there at level 2 were the "B team". B for bad. The "A team" was busy back at Madame Zelda's Pink Pussycat "leveling up" with the harlots. Alchemists can overcome them if they learn how to make "Love Potion #9". Its the only way to defeat bandits skilled in the art of the "Kama-fu, Sutra-jitsu".

[Gordon Cameron]

I repeat, moderation, not "mollycoddling." The fact is Oblivion is still a highly combat based game if you want to complete most quests or the main storyline. If it is possible to gimp yourself by leveling certain attributes like alchemy or armory too quickly, I don't think it is "mollycoddling" to guard against this. I think it's good design.

If the game were truly open ended in the sense that you could have an interesting gameplay experience just by interacting with the game in a noncombat way, then it might be another matter. This may be possible via stealth/sneaking etc., but tradeskills like alchemy or armory are pretty uninteresting in their own right.

I do however think it might be possible to do well in combat by being an alchemist, as long as you are constantly drinking potions to buff yourself and using them to poison your weapons. So I'm not claiming this as a serious problem with Oblivion's design, because I don't have enough info to know for sure. But looked at hypothetically, I don't think it's particularly wise for a combat-oriented game (which IMO Oblivion still is for the most part) to potentially point players in a direction where they will not be competitive in combat. Especially if they chose a preconstructed class to play (some of which have, for instance, Alchemy or Armory or Security as major skills).

I don't think the comparison with Morrowind is particularly apt, Tim, because frankly Morrowind becomes a cakewalk before too long. Oblivion gets tougher the higher you level. It's a very different power curve.

[Igor Muravyev]

Funny thing is if you don't want the game to be hard, you **have** to min-max level.

[awdougherty]

Why does every game have to mollycoddle the gamer. Why must the player be prevented from developing into a character that will be difficult to play? I haven't got Oblivion yet, so perhaps this comment is off-base, but based on experience with Morrowind, but there's enough alternatives for doing things, and getting magical items to overcome deficiencies that railroading the character development isn't really necessary.

It's not just that it's difficult to play, it sounds like it might be impossible to play.

Not sure what the answer to this is, but say someone did level up through alchemy, security, armorer, and whatnot. It seems that the enemies will go up in terms of combat difficulty and whomp the crap out of you. How do you correct your earlier mistakes? You can't survive the fights, but you need to in order to get your combat skills up to par. Is really the only solution to start over?

[Tom McNamara]

Is really the only solution to start over?

Nah, you can tweak the difficulty slider in the options menu. I had this happen to me, after leveling up several times from mixing potions. I was clearing out entire towns of their alchemy ingredients; at ten gold a pop and more, the sheer act of making money through alchemy is fun for me.

[Jakub]

Funny thing is if you don't want the game to be hard, you **have** to min-max level.
No you don't.

I'm level 9 and roughly halfway through the main quest, with most of the thieves' guild quests done, using a slightly modified Assassin template. I've had several occasions where the key attributes I could only increase by 1 when I leveled, and I have useless skills like Mysticism and Sneaking that have accelerated my levels a fair bit higher than my Blade and Light Armor skills should be at. Other than the occasional Oblivion tower room with 3-4 enemies who jump me at the same time, I have no issues.

What you HAVE to do is avoid making majors of useless skills like acrobatics, athletics, alchemy, and anything else that might rush you through the levels.

As for everyone complaining about the auto-leveling, where the hell were you guys during Daggerfall and Morrowind (and probably Arena as well, though I never played it)? This is nothing new, it's TES canon.

[Post-It]

I'd have to agree about the enemy leveling being a bad thing. When I first started the game there were only rats, crabs, and maybe a couple of little goblin things flitting around the Imperial city. Things you might expect, but nothing too major as the Imperial City, with its guards, and patrols, etc should be, in theory, one of the safest places in the land. I've been busy questing random stuff and hadn't had an occasion to walk around the Imperial City until recently. I'm level 18 now.

Now there are minotaurs, bandits in orcish armor, and huge, fuck-off scorpion things that look like that came straight out of Serious Sam minus the cannons. What the hell? Isn't the Imperial City supposed to be safe? Yet right across the shore there is all that crap. No way. It's still a fun game, but I wish this had been left off.
________
Uhwh (http://uhwh.com/)

[Gordon Cameron]

I know some dungeon spawns in MW were "ninja monkeys," (level appropriate spawns) but on the other hand I don't recall being waylaid by bandits in full Elven as I walked down the street. Beats the endless parade of Cliff Racers, tiny insects, and mudcrabs though.

Wild Guars were kinda cool.

[Charles]

Why does every game have to mollycoddle the gamer. Why must the player be prevented from developing into a character that will be difficult to play? I haven't got Oblivion yet, so perhaps this comment is off-base, but based on experience with Morrowind, but there's enough alternatives for doing things, and getting magical items to overcome deficiencies that railroading the character development isn't really necessary.

Remember those old adventure games where you could save in an unwinnable position? Yeah, those were fun.


No you don't.

*snip*

What you HAVE to do is avoid making majors of useless skills like acrobatics, athletics, alchemy, and anything else that might rush you through the levels.


But see, this is the thing. How are you supposed to know to take those skills as minors? The only way to learn that it's bad is by investing a bunch of time in a useless character. As was said above, things should've been grouped in to combat skills and non-combat skills. If they want to go and level enemies with you, they should do so based on a combat skill level, rather than a total skill level. Considering that in Oblivion, as in most games, "Level" is intended to convey power, it makes sense that you should not ever achieve level 10 without being that powerful.

[Timemaster Tim]

Remember those old adventure games where you could save in an unwinnable position? Yeah, those were fun.

Umm yeah. They were. Now I'll just shake my fist and tell you kids to get off my lawn.

[walTer]

I am enjoying my battlemage nord very much...but I am considering a change here-

Is it possible to successfully wield BOTH a sword and a bow? I am pondering a dark elf Thief/Assassin build and I would like to use a bow but my personality dictates I have a sword as well...is it doable?

[Dave Long]

You can't hold both of them at the same time in opposing hands. However, I use the hotkeys (the d-pad on 360) to quickly swap between bow and sword. I plink from a distance until the monster gets closer, which is especially effective against creatures that like to fight from a distance but have avoidable fireball attacks, and then unsheathe the blade as they get on top of me.

Works pretty well, though the arrows often don't do a ton of damage.

[walTer]

You can't hold both of them at the same time in opposing hands. However, I use the hotkeys (the d-pad on 360) to quickly swap between bow and sword. I plink from a distance until the monster gets closer, which is especially effective against creatures that like to fight from a distance but have avoidable fireball attacks, and then unsheathe the blade as they get on top of me.

Works pretty well, though the arrows often don't do a ton of damage.

ok yeah thats good that quick keys work but I think I was a bit unclear-- can you have both good bow AND sword skills enough that you are a good fighter and still be a good thief...?

I guess my point is, I like fighting with a sword- but I need a ranged attack, so as a battlemage, so I would need to be able to bump my archer skills up allong with my sword skills- I have that covered, but I want to be able to steal stuff-- I forgot how much fun I had stealing in Morrowind.

[Tom McNamara]

ok yeah thats good that quick keys work but I think I was a bit unclear-- can you have both good bow AND sword skills enough that you are a good fighter and still be a good thief...?

I guess my point is, I like fighting with a sword- but I need a ranged attack, so as a battlemage, so I would need to be able to bump my archer skills up allong with my sword skills- I have that covered, but I want to be able to steal stuff-- I forgot how much fun I had stealing in Morrowind.

As a battlemage, ranged combat is usually spellcasting instead of bow & arrow. And your bow skill isn't tied to thieving skills.

[awdougherty]

Nah, you can tweak the difficulty slider in the options menu. I had this happen to me, after leveling up several times from mixing potions. I was clearing out entire towns of their alchemy ingredients; at ten gold a pop and more, the sheer act of making money through alchemy is fun for me.

That's cool that there's a way not to start over, but somehow that feels like some cheese.

[EvilIdler]

What you HAVE to do is avoid making majors of useless skills like acrobatics, athletics, alchemy, and anything else that might rush you through the levels.

Actually, Athletics levels *very* slowly, even as a major. Other than that,
I agree that you don't need to min/max. I'm quite happily just following the
Black Hand quests, despite Sneak being my only Expert level skill.

Dread zombies? Pfft! Three chops (one from stealth, of course), and they're
deader.

[Lunch of Kong]

Someone asked about taking new characters into the arena. I did.

I took my level 1 toon into the arena. Killed the first guy, but then couldn't beat the second.

I came back at level 2, killed number 2 and 3, but then got stuck at the 4th.

I bought some new spells and killed number 4, but then got thrashed by the twins who are the 5th arena challenge.

Now I'm level 3, and I'm thinking I could probably take on the twins now, but I have to do some quest for the mage guild first. So my life as a gladiator is on hold for the moment.

[Gordon Cameron]

If you lose or sell the Arena outfit, can you get another one or are you screwed?

I had to drop mine in a dungeon; I needed to carry something more valuable.

[Lunch of Kong]

Yeah, don't worry about it. Agreeing to fight gets you into the Arena faction, which means you can safely open the cupboards in the bloodworks and get a new gladiator suits. Each wardrobe has 5 light and 5 heavy suits. They have no value, so cannot be sold. You can loot and sell the weapons, though.

[GreasyPig]

Man, I really loved this game. My first real RPG with magic elves and shit and I normally hate anything with magic and elves. The revelation of auto-leveling bad guys just really breaks this for me.

It’s like finding a pretty new girlfriend that really digs doing kinky shit only to find out the bitch is a lying crack-whore. She’s fun for the quick ride but not worth the long term investment.

I know I’m a whiny prick. I know there will be mods to tone this down. But I’m not sure there is a way to completely change this system without breaking a lot of quests.

[Charles]

Man, I really loved this game. My first real RPG with magic elves and shit and I normally hate anything with magic and elves. The revelation of auto-leveling bad guys just really breaks this for me.

So... the only reason it's a problem is because we explicitly revealed it to you? That's pretty weak.

[Tom McNamara]

I'd say, "Try it -- you might like it!" But my dad said that to me once about raw oysters.

[walTer]

Someone asked about taking new characters into the arena. I did.

I took my level 1 toon into the arena. Killed the first guy, but then couldn't beat the second.

I came back at level 2, killed number 2 and 3, but then got stuck at the 4th.

I bought some new spells and killed number 4, but then got thrashed by the twins who are the 5th arena challenge.

Now I'm level 3, and I'm thinking I could probably take on the twins now, but I have to do some quest for the mage guild first. So my life as a gladiator is on hold for the moment.


Kill the chick with the arrows first and ignore the other one. Took me a couple of tries but I got thru it that way.

[WarrenM]

Man, I really loved this game. My first real RPG with magic elves and shit and I normally hate anything with magic and elves. The revelation of auto-leveling bad guys just really breaks this for me.
You could just wait and see if it becomes a problem for you before complaining and posting bad analogies. I've seen reports from both sides of the extreme - someone will say it completely ruins the game and another will say that they haven't noticed anything.

[Lunch of Kong]

i hate how they pop potions in the middle of combat. wimps! if it werent for their potion popping, i'd have bathed in their blood!

p.s. - i'm one of those who haven't really noticed anything weird with the monsters that level with you.

[Qenan]

Funny thing is if you don't want the game to be hard, you **have** to min-max level.

No, you can just adjust the difficulty slider.

[Gordon Cameron]

i hate how they pop potions in the middle of combat. wimps! if it werent for their potion popping, i'd have bathed in their blood!

p.s. - i'm one of those who haven't really noticed anything weird with the monsters that level with you.

I'm not digging bandits in full elven. That stuff should be reserved for dark lords and whatnot.

Otherwise, great game.

[Moore]

Funny thing is if you don't want the game to be hard, you **have** to min-max level.

or, you know, turn the difficulty down to easy.

[GreasyPig]

Come on Charles, I have the game. It didn’t take long to suspect something. ”You” simply verified it. My “revelation” is that this auto-leveling system is intended. It surprises me. It shocks me.

Because…

Advancing your character seemed by all accounts central to the game.

For me the game IS leveling my character and making him powerful compared to all those that would stand in his way. Ask Conan what is best in life. This common denominator bullshit breaks that for me.

EpicBoy…

I didn’t start the Auto-Leveler Hater’s Club. I just wanted to be a member.

The bad analogy is just my childish way to say “Hey, I’m not terribly witty, I’m not terribly serious, and I really hate auto-leveling.” That’s all. Its on par with your “You could just wait and see blah blah blah I don’t have any-fucking-thing to helpful to say bullshit”. Tell me game doesn’t work this way. PLEASE tell me game doesn’t work this way.

I don’t feel slighted or pissed, just surprised and disappointed…

And happy as hell that I got GalCiv2.

[Jeremy Johnsen]

Someone asked about taking new characters into the arena. I did.

I took my level 1 toon into the arena. Killed the first guy, but then couldn't beat the second.

I came back at level 2, killed number 2 and 3, but then got stuck at the 4th.

I bought some new spells and killed number 4, but then got thrashed by the twins who are the 5th arena challenge.

Now I'm level 3, and I'm thinking I could probably take on the twins now, but I have to do some quest for the mage guild first. So my life as a gladiator is on hold for the moment.
I must have my difficulty set too low, I haven't come close to losing a fight and I've gone to the arena 9-10 times.

[Belisarius]

Well, for me, the reason I see it as bad game design, sort of, is that it will let you get 10 levels of alchemy but can you then go use those 10 levels of alchemy to do stuff? The game is so combat heavy that eventually you have to fight. Can the alchemist put that skill toward defeating the badguys? I don't know, I never use much alchemy. If the alchemist could brew grenade potions or something, then it's not so bad, if the alchemist has to then stop and work up a blade skill, then it seems like some weaker design.

I guess I think the issue is that the game makes it obvious from the start (assasins, dead king, lots of killing monsters) that there will be lots of combat. Anybody who survived the initial dungeon should have been clear on that point. Then as they leveled their alchemy they probably should have noticed all those other stats at +1 and intelligence at +5. If, having noticed this, they fail to wonder about what it might mean in the nasty world outside then they deserve to be eaten by a wild boar.

Plus if they actually weapon/armor up before heading outside I kinda think they have a good chance of winning.


For your info, I'm mostly enjoying Oblivion so far, despite some percieved problems. Games aren't all good or all bad you know, there's usually a mix. My dig at oblivion in the WoW thread is because there's twenty fucking oblivion threads on the main page. And they are all having the same discussion.



Yep, that is fair. I think the game has flaws too (clearly playing a pure mage type is harder than it needs to be etc). I just don't think what you are talking about is a flaw. And you have posted a lot of times about this flaw, on several threads, adding to the overall oblivion focus on this forum. I was starting to wonder where you were going with it all :)



Not sure what the answer to this is, but say someone did level up through alchemy, security, armorer, and whatnot. It seems that the enemies will go up in terms of combat difficulty and whomp the crap out of you. How do you correct your earlier mistakes? You can't survive the fights, but you need to in order to get your combat skills up to par. Is really the only solution to start over?



See this would be the point at which I start to have problems with your analogy. Security is agi and armourer is endurance. How does leveling these skills screw your character? Those are both combat stats! I have security as a major right now! Playing a ninja type have found my high agility to rock, and have done lots of repairing to get armourer plus endurance as well (hint: get your endurance early, as it counts for hp per level, so early gains multiply over time). I certainly have not found armourer to level uncontrollably, in fact I would like it to level a little more often. Now your pure combat SKILLS will not have leveled true, but I doubt this is a huge problem compared to having leveled non-combat stats.


Considering that in Oblivion, as in most games, "Level" is intended to convey power, it makes sense that you should not ever achieve level 10 without being that powerful.


You are one powerful alchemist! Look for starters this is a poor argument as it is impossible to level to 10 through alchemy alone (100 max, to level from it the skill has to be a major, thus starting at 25... you can get to L7 worst case). And in the end we are just going to disagree about what the game should or should not let you do. Someone made the point about the difference between moderation and mollycoddeling, and that Oblivion could take a step towards moderation without becoming mollycoddeling. The problem with this is that where the line lies is different for each person. I am way out on the "love of sandbox style" side of the debate, so even the fact that the main quest is immediately obvious is a step across that line. I prefered the "what do I do?" of morrowind to the "go this way now!" of Oblivion. I like that I can make whatever class I like, and do whatever I want with that class. I like that, assuming I am sensible about playing a combat class, I keep getting monsters appropriate to my level (Hey, I played heaps of paper and pencil DnD back in the day, so I have dealt with this for a long time. Killing goblins for no reward at L10 sucked then and sucks now). Sure bandits now have glass weapons, but at least the fights are interesting. I can see why this bothers people, I just think it is an acceptable tradeoff for continued level appropriate content. YMMV.
Pretty much all of the suggestions being made for improvements are "make the game more linear". Make the monsters stay the same in different areas is making the game more linear. Screw that! There are so many games that are basically linear, and pretty much one big bestheda franchise that is (close to) totally non-linear. You will not improve the game, for my purposes, by making oblivion more like those other games.


And yet again I would point to the difficulty slider. Wow, people seem to regard this as a poisoned chalice. I bet you can play a pure alchemist to L7.5. I bet you put the slider down low enough and you can still kick ass for the lord. And if you find yourself compelled to play the game to 10th level never getting any combat skills and then decide you can't touch the slider to balance out the difficulty, well then YOU have the problem, not the game. The mechanics of the game are identical to that of morrowind, and that of daggerfall before it. If you are incapable of figuring them out (or at least doing the most cursory of internet searching) and working out what problems your playstyle may encounter... well then I guess I think you should stick to other games rather than try to change this one.

[Damien Neil]

I guess I think the issue is that the game makes it obvious from the start (assasins, dead king, lots of killing monsters) that there will be lots of combat. Anybody who survived the initial dungeon should have been clear on that point. Then as they leveled their alchemy they probably should have noticed all those other stats at +1 and intelligence at +5. If, having noticed this, they fail to wonder about what it might mean in the nasty world outside then they deserve to be eaten by a wild boar.

But it isn't a matter of deciding to level up via alchemy. It's a matter of discovering that increasing your alchemy skill causes the world to kick your ass.

I mean, yeah, it's obvious that if you've got a pile of points in alchemy and none in a weapon then you're going to get your butt kicked by tough things. It isn't obvious--and it isn't sane--that making a bunch of potions will make all the rats go away and be replaced by demons or something. You can't say, "Oh, well, I guess I'll go play with alchemy today and level up my combat skills tomorrow".

Unless you take alchemy as a minor skill, of course. For some strange reason being good in the things you don't specialize in and crap in the things that you do will allow you to kick ass and take names.

[Kevin Grey]

Count me as one of those going through the game playing the game just fine while ignoring the stat interactions behind the scenes. I'm currently Level 12 and playing as an Agent so my focus is much more on stealthiness than combat.

[TheWombat]

It is fascinating though. Some of us are playing along to reasonable levels without ever really feeling the auto-leveling thing is hurting much (beyond the oddly prosperous banditos). Others are finding that it really hurts them, to the extent that they find leveling up actually hinders their abilities.

Such a dichotomy in responses is certainly interesting. One thing that helps (for me at least) is that it's a what you see is what you get game. If a mob is wearing Orcish armor and weilding some sort of Ebony blade, you kill him, you get that stuff. Makes it a bit more profitable to kill leveled bandits at least.

I do miss being a badass and storming through stuff occasionally, but more often I'm pleased that the world is still challenging at level 20. After all, in gamer terms I've been out of the dungeon what, a month and half or something? Sure, I'm stronger now but I'm no demigod (like in MW).

[Kevin Grey]

It is fascinating though. Some of us are playing along to reasonable levels without ever really feeling the auto-leveling thing is hurting much (beyond the oddly prosperous banditos). Others are finding that it really hurts them, to the extent that they find leveling up actually hinders their abilities.

Such a dichotomy in responses is certainly interesting. One thing that helps (for me at least) is that it's a what you see is what you get game. If a mob is wearing Orcish armor and weilding some sort of Ebony blade, you kill him, you get that stuff. Makes it a bit more profitable to kill leveled bandits at least.

I do miss being a badass and storming through stuff occasionally, but more often I'm pleased that the world is still challenging at level 20. After all, in gamer terms I've been out of the dungeon what, a month and half or something? Sure, I'm stronger now but I'm no demigod (like in MW).

Part of it seems to me that people feel compelled to kill everything you see. Unless you are using a particular combat skill as a Major, there really isn't that much incentive to engage in combat. I generally have very good luck with doing stealth kills on almost everything in a dungeon but, if it isn't practical, I don't see a problem with slipping by and leaving the enemy alive.

The same even applies to looting- most bandits are carrying gear that I won't even use (it's usually heavy armor) and selling the stuff for profit becomes impractical due to encumburance. Consequently, I just don't sweat it if I can't carry something.

[Gordon Cameron]

I definitely intend to play more of an avoidance strategy with my thief character. My battlemage is more a "kill em all, let god sort em out" type.

But as you get up past lvl 15 or so, the loot dropped off mobs becomes much more valuable. There's an incentive to kill guys who are carrying around glass and elven.

[Dave Long]

Part of it seems to me that people feel compelled to kill everything you see. Unless you are using a particular combat skill as a Major, there really isn't that much incentive to engage in combat. I generally have very good luck with doing stealth kills on almost everything in a dungeon but, if it isn't practical, I don't see a problem with slipping by and leaving the enemy alive.

The same even applies to looting- most bandits are carrying gear that I won't even use (it's usually heavy armor) and selling the stuff for profit becomes impractical due to encumburance. Consequently, I just don't sweat it if I can't carry something.

Even with a strong character, if you want to have an alternate weapon available in times of crisis, it's just not feasible to carry out massive suits of armor in addition to all the other crap you've got on you.

I suppose if I had a house, that would help, though.

No matter how you look at it, you simply can't carry everything you might want so you have to leave some things behind. If you're sneaking around, you definitely don't want to be loaded to the gills anyway.

[Belisarius]

I mean, yeah, it's obvious that if you've got a pile of points in alchemy and none in a weapon then you're going to get your butt kicked by tough things. It isn't obvious--and it isn't sane--that making a bunch of potions will make all the rats go away and be replaced by demons or something. You can't say, "Oh, well, I guess I'll go play with alchemy today and level up my combat skills tomorrow".

This is sort of fair, but it really is something that should happen once then never cause a problem again. I mean it is a problem that can only occur if someone focuses on a particular subset of skills to the exclusion of all others for a long period of time. These level jumps only occur every 4 levels, which to me is a lot of leveling (40 skill points in primary skills!). It happens once, you don't do it again because the system will (sort of, I still don't rate this inability to deal with the difficulty slider) punish you. I just don't have this problem with rubberbanding because it means the whole world is explorable from the start, and remains meaningful to explore to the end. Any system that did otherwise would direct you to some areas appropriate for your level... thus restricting gameplay to the path they chose for you. Why go back to that cool deathtrap ruin late game when you know that there will only be rats there? And no chance for a glass weapon drop?
One of the problems here is that by the game mechanics people are expected to level lots of their skills. You can semi-focus (I don't use magic a lot with this character) but other than that you get the best results if you are doing lots of different things. People who define their characters very strictly (I am ONLY a traditional mage, or I ONLY use sword and shield and I NEVER sneak) will have much more difficulty getting some stats and may well find themselves leveling quicker. As I am the type of person who likes doing lots of different things this system works well for me... I level at a reasonable rate and get good levels with real power increases.



Unless you take alchemy as a minor skill, of course. For some strange reason being good in the things you don't specialize in and crap in the things that you do will allow you to kick ass and take names.

See this is taking it too far. Balanced use of skills is all you need! As evdenced by the many people who are progressing with ease and not finding the difficulty becomes overwhelming. You do need to advance levels as this relates to hitpoints and to stats. You can do so at a reasonable rate if you just use a few more skills.

[Gordon Cameron]

I suppose if I had a house, that would help, though.

Yup, it helps. At least I can finally put down the 70 pounds' worth of welkynd stones I'd been lugging around.

[Chris Nahr]

People who define their characters very strictly (I am ONLY a traditional mage, or I ONLY use sword and shield and I NEVER sneak) will have much more difficulty getting some stats and may well find themselves leveling quicker.

Interesting. Most other CRPGs encourage specialization and narrowly defined classes whereas Oblivion punishes them. In the typical D&D dungeon romp, you fall behind if you waste your precious skill points on something non-essential. But in Oblivion, you fall behind if you focus your training on something essential!

That's pretty ironic... and it should suit my play style since I never like having to calculate the precise character builds that allow me to win a game. Time to start Oblivion I guess, after one last attempt at hitting Kamui against that stupid fire dragon. :(

[Damien Neil]

I just don't have this problem with rubberbanding because it means the whole world is explorable from the start, and remains meaningful to explore to the end. Any system that did otherwise would direct you to some areas appropriate for your level... thus restricting gameplay to the path they chose for you. Why go back to that cool deathtrap ruin late game when you know that there will only be rats there? And no chance for a glass weapon drop?

Here's how I'd do it in My Ideal Game(tm):

First off, there is some content banding. A level one character can't go to the Pit of Ultimate Doom without being eaten alive, and a level MAXINT character probably doesn't care much about the first dungeon in the game. This provides new characters something to look forward to (someday, I'll kill that ogre!), old characters something to look back on (man, I remember when these ogres were tough), and lets players tune their desired level of difficulty without resorting to sliders in the options menu (I'll level up a bit more before going there).

However, higher levels and better gear are more effective against higher level content. For example: A NewbieWeapon is ineffective against the tough hides of orcs, but kills kobolds easily. A SnazzyWeapon slices through both orc and kobold hides--it does about 500% as much damage against orcs as the NewbieWeapon did, but only 120% as much damage against kobolds.

Putting it numerically, having a weapon whose attack value is greater than the armor value of your target would produce diminishing returns.

Then, since we're making a single player game, we cheat and have player armor produce diminishing returns against enemy weapons.

The idea is that as you level up and acquire loot, you become increasingly effective against tougher foes, allowing you access to more of the world. You become somewhat more effective against existing foes, but not so quickly that you're tied to a thin band of level-appropriate content. At the end of the game with all your stats maxed out, you'd still want to watch your step in about 50% of the world.

Then, loot: Why go back to low-level areas? I'd solve this by putting useful loot in just about every area of the game. Every dungeon or other location would have one or two items that even a high level player would be interested in--even if it was only to sell. Add some nice moneysinks to the game (bigger houses, rare-and-expensive skills, snazzy horses, whatever), and everyone will be happy to play tomb rai...plunderer to get something that can be turned into ready cash.

What you don't do is put bucketloads of useful loot anywhere--a mistake Morrowind made. If Daedric goblets are a dime a dozen in the tombs, you shouldn't get more than a dime for a dozen of them from the merchants. You don't want the player to hit a tomb or two and be set for life.

[Saber Cherry]

I laugh at you fools who bought the game at release. Hah! Morrowind was broken at release, and Oblivion is just as broken. The more stupidly you design your character ("I'm a warrior, so I'll take... uhh... Speechcraft, Illusion, Dandyism, Sarcasm, and Cooking") the more powerful it will be compared to the enemies.

Delete it, wait a few months for some dedicated (intelligent) players to release mods, reinstall, and you'll be a lot happier.

[Gordon Cameron]

I've been playing it for about 40 hours and it isn't broken for me so far.

[Saber Cherry]

Right, it depends on perspective. I consider bricks broken because they have a lot of cracks ("hairline fractures") and therefore no tensile strength, but they work for a lot of people. Until an earthquake hits Pakistan and 80,000 people die because bricks lack tensile strength.

[Gordon Cameron]

Well, when an earthquake hits I'll get back to you. In the meantime, is it okay with you if I keep playing?

[Saber Cherry]

Well, when an earthquake hits I'll get back to you. In the meantime, is it okay with you if I keep playing?

Yes, but I'll laugh at you. :)

[JM]

Yeah, sorry to burst your bubble but Oblivion isn't broken. Some people don't like how they've made it, but that doesn't make it broken.

[Gordon Cameron]

Yes, but I'll laugh at you. :)

Small price to pay for RPG enjoyment, I suppose.

[Belisarius]

Interesting. Most other CRPGs encourage specialization and narrowly defined classes whereas Oblivion punishes them. In the typical D&D dungeon romp, you fall behind if you waste your precious skill points on something non-essential. But in Oblivion, you fall behind if you focus your training on something essential!

I had not thought of it this way (I play far more Morrowind/Oblivion than I do any other CRPG) but you are right. Still I have always found with Bestheda games that focusing is next to impossible in normal gameplay, hence why I am so surprised at some people's problems. I just dont see how people get through the game using only spells, or never sneaking, or never talking to anyone. Basically all this "I must put all my heavy use skills as minors or I die" goes over my head because I find myself using a wide range of skills every level, and always end up with some reasonable modfiers on the level. Sure some levels were spent largely in town so personality gets a boost, but then the next level I spend out dungeon bashing and get +5 str or agi or endurance, so it all balances out. Most levels are a balance between the two, so I get +4-5 on several stats. It is very naturalistic to me, though obviously not to many others :)


Here's how I'd do it in My Ideal Game(tm)

Look, it sounds cool. It has lost some of the sandbox feel, but for you the benifits outweigh the negatives. I do doubt your position on returning to earlier dungeons though: it would be hard to see why people would choose the lesser reward over the greater one, and level equivilant monsters will always give the greater reward (Even if there are some things that are worth returning to a lesser dungeon for). People will mostly stay in their level appropriate area, and that means the actual gameworld gets smaller at any level. I guess I still choose wide open spaces, even with the every richer bandits and no longer invisible bears.



I laugh at you fools who bought the game at release.

Laugh it up fuzzball! This has been the way all Bestheda games played, the vast majority of Morrowind players seem to use the system as is. However another cool, part of it's modability is that someone can go change the system to play the way you want. All you need to do is be patient. I like it the way it is, will not be installing that mod thanks, and get to play the game now. I lose!

[metta]

I'm a bit mystified by the complaints also. I picked a default class and began playing. Some fights I'm able to win, some I am not, but the curve feels pretty natural and balanced to me.

[Gordon Cameron]

Turning the corner over to 75 (Expert) on a couple magic schools seems to have made the going easier for me. I got Summon Daedroth and man, that guy rocks. I ran a whole dungeon just by letting him loose, standing back, and watching the fireworks. He costs more than half my mana to summon but it's sufficiently regenerated by the time he dies so I can summon him again.

[WarrenM]

Small price to pay for RPG enjoyment, I suppose.
Indeed. Small price to pay to enjoy the best RPG to come out in years. Go ahead and laugh. I'll be over here exploring these cool ass ruins.

[selfnoise]

Dude, are 80,000 people going to die because Oblivion has monster scaling? Maybe we should organize some kind of sit in, or VIGIL.

[DeepT]

Is there a patch for this game yet? If so, what does bethelsda see as a problem beyond bugs?

[Saber Cherry]

Indeed. Small price to pay to enjoy the best RPG to come out in years. Go ahead and laugh. I'll be over here exploring these cool ass ruins.

Have fun exploring your ass ruins; hopefully there will be a patch for them :)

DeepT: The problems I see as problems Bethseda has touted as features and argued strongly for in their forums. They are only going to patch bugs AFAIK, but I really haven't heard of many - seems like a much more stable release than Morrowind. OTOH, I hear they'll sell you a horse reins *oops, I mean horse armor* mod pretty soon. In other words - don't expect patches to change game mechanics, and really don't expect them to add content or features, though they might remove the ass ruins (assuming selfnoise was talking about the game...). The free patches, I mean.

[Charles]

I laugh at you fools who bought the game at release. Hah! Morrowind was broken at release, and Oblivion is just as broken. The more stupidly you design your character ("I'm a warrior, so I'll take... uhh... Speechcraft, Illusion, Dandyism, Sarcasm, and Cooking") the more powerful it will be compared to the enemies.

Delete it, wait a few months for some dedicated (intelligent) players to release mods, reinstall, and you'll be a lot happier.

You are funny. Have I mentioned how stupid you are lately? Cause, I think you are pretty stupid.

[Saber Cherry]

You are funny. Have I mentioned how stupid you are lately? Cause, I think you are pretty stupid.

Care to point at something in my post that was untrue (aside from the opinion part)? Cause, quoting something that is true and using as evidence of stupidity doesn't work too well. You need to use more assholeism and nail those 5x multipliers for intelligence a few more times, and hope I don't level with you.

[Charles]

Care to point at something in my post that was untrue (aside from the opinion part)? Cause, quoting something that is true and using as evidence of stupidity doesn't work too well. You need to use more assholeism and nail those 5x multipliers for intelligence a few more times, and hope I don't level with you.


Is this where I laugh at you?

[selfnoise]

No, wait a second. The moment is coming.

[WarrenM]

Have fun exploring your ass ruins; hopefully there will be a patch for them :)
Right. I've got a handle on the level of the room now. Thanks!

[Dave Markell]

Strange how this thread has devolved into fanboi's vs critics. I'd like to point out (again) that it's possible to like a game while recognizing it has some problems. Black/white either/or good/awful dichotomy isn't the only possible approach, you know.

[BobJustBob]

Yeah, I'm greatly enjoying Oblivion. I'm worried that the game won't have nearly the longevity of Morrowind because of the limited, scripted quests and the concurrent levelling. But for now it's still really fun.

[GlaziusFalconar]

Wait. Wait. What? A few months? What?

There are people who've revamped the leveling system and tweaked NPC equipment and monster scaling _now_.

http://www.tessource.net/ requires free registration but it's there.

--GF

[Charles]

Strange how this thread has devolved into fanboi's vs critics. I'd like to point out (again) that it's possible to like a game while recognizing it has some problems. Black/white either/or good/awful dichotomy isn't the only possible approach, you know.


Plus, it's not like Oblivion is the first game to gimp certain classes. Anyone ever try and play BG as a caster? Deus Ex as a sneaker with no combat?

There are always choices which will make an RPG significantly harder. The levelling stuff probably doesn't help, but it's not like Oblivion is the first to have these problems.

[walTer]

I am amazed how broken the game is NOT especially considering how bad MW was on release. The did learn a lot over they years.

Speaking of houses, do they generally come with a "fast travel to" option- that would be really nice to load up with loot and have a place to drop it off and then just continue with my quest?

[EviLore]

Speaking of houses, do they generally come with a "fast travel to" option- that would be really nice to load up with loot and have a place to drop it off and then just continue with my quest?

No, they don't. At least not the ones I own.

[TheWombat]

Strange how this thread has devolved into fanboi's vs critics. I'd like to point out (again) that it's possible to like a game while recognizing it has some problems. Black/white either/or good/awful dichotomy isn't the only possible approach, you know.

That is certainly true. I don't really see too many "fanbois" though, not in the sense of blindly proclaiming perfection or something. I think all of us who enjoy the game have our gripes, some just are more significant gripes than others.

It is, though, a testimony I think to the game that people have such passionate feelings about it, so that they can play it obsessively and define, in detail, how they'd make it better. That's a pretty good sign the game is worth your money. :)

[Igor Muravyev]

No, they don't. At least not the ones I own.

I think they did that so that you couldn't sneak past the guards when you have a bounty. Although a more sensible solution would be to disable travel inside a city while you have a bounty... grrrr.

[Belisarius]

That is certainly true. I don't really see too many "fanbois" though, not in the sense of blindly proclaiming perfection or something. I think all of us who enjoy the game have our gripes, some just are more significant gripes than others.

I am betting that I am one of these fanbois. Still, what I have spent my time objecting too is particular complaints that I dislike ala "the game is broken because x". You won't catch me playing anything close to a pure spellcaster in the game, and I agree with Bob(justbob) that the scripted missions may lead to it having less of a replay value when compared to Morrowind. Then again I also think that the smaller seeming world and more obvious central quest is a step in the wrong "dumbed down" direction, so I am probably just a Bestheda Fanboi rather than an oblivion fanboi.

Most of the debate has been considering (or ranting :) about whether particular features are pro's or con's, something that is likely to lead to a more... vigorous... debate.

[Jakub]

Actually, Athletics levels *very* slowly, even as a major. Other than that,
I agree that you don't need to min/max. I'm quite happily just following the
Black Hand quests, despite Sneak being my only Expert level skill.

Dread zombies? Pfft! Three chops (one from stealth, of course), and they're
deader.
Doesn't matter that it's "slow", it matters that it's useless. It serves no purpose in combat.

I suppose I have a skewed perspective because I played a TON of Daggerfall. Less Morrowind, but it was immediately obvious to me that Bethesda didn't change the leveling system.

[JM]

Wait. Wait. What? A few months? What?

There are people who've revamped the leveling system and tweaked NPC equipment and monster scaling _now_.

http://www.tessource.net/ requires free registration but it's there.

--GF

Good luck to them and all, but uh, the game's been out for approximately 30 picoseconds and I doubt they have a fucking clue how to balance it properly. Have they levelled multiple characters to the end? Have they completed the main quest with all these characters? Or is it just a kneejerk "THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD WORK" without actually playing it much?

[EvilIdler]

You are funny. Have I mentioned how stupid you are lately? Cause, I think you are pretty stupid.
Damn, Charles! Don't go enjoying the game now, or the Cherry will be cross
with you!

[Damien Neil]

Look, it sounds cool. It has lost some of the sandbox feel, but for you the benifits outweigh the negatives.

The thing is, leveled content kills a lot of the sandbox feel for me.

[Matt Perkins]

Man, I really loved this game. My first real RPG with magic elves and shit and I normally hate anything with magic and elves. The revelation of auto-leveling bad guys just really breaks this for me.

It’s like finding a pretty new girlfriend that really digs doing kinky shit only to find out the bitch is a lying crack-whore. She’s fun for the quick ride but not worth the long term investment.

I know I’m a whiny prick. I know there will be mods to tone this down. But I’m not sure there is a way to completely change this system without breaking a lot of quests.
Greasy, if just play with mostly combat skills and hard to level skills as your main skills, it works out fine. It's when you start leveling off non combat skills that the problem can arise.

I remade my thief to have focus on more combat related skills and it's been so much better it's not even funny.

[WarrenM]

The thing is, leveled content kills a lot of the sandbox feel for me.
But without it, it becomes linear with a very thin veneer of sandbox since there will be a distinct ordering to which areas you can handle and which you can't.

I'll take the leveled sandbox.

[GreasyPig]

Hey thanks Matt,

I appreciate it. Actually, I am playing a heavy combat centric character. I’ve never lost a fight and have never touched the difficulty screen, Yet.

The thing is I don’t remember what level he is because, well, it doesn’t matter.

It’s funny looking back at the weekend. I was psyched, GTA meets D&D!

I played very cautiously, leveling my guy on what I though were easy fights and tasks. I was preparing, toughening up to go to the arena and then out into the dangerous country side (according to the Imperial guards). When my Nord was Conan enough then I’d sack some deadly dungeons looking for top-shelf loot.

You see, this rubber-banding thing just sucked the gas right out of that enthusiasm. I still play it. I still like it. I should kick myself in the head for getting this excited about a video game.

[Damien Neil]

But without it, it becomes linear with a very thin veneer of sandbox since there will be a distinct ordering to which areas you can handle and which you can't.

Only if you remain wedded to the concept that character level has to be the main factor determining character power, and that characters must constantly gain levels and increase in power.

One very simple fix is to simply have characters max out in level about 20 hours into the game. That's still very early on in terms of games as large as the Elder Scroll series. Anyone who wants to just follow the main quest will get to level up across the course of their game; anyone who wants to go everywhere and do everything is presumably driven by a goal other than gaining infinite numbers of levels. (And, indeed, you see many people discussing how to AVOID leveling in Oblivion.)

[GlaziusFalconar]

Good luck to them and all, but uh, the game's been out for approximately 30 picoseconds and I doubt they have a fucking clue how to balance it properly. Have they levelled multiple characters to the end? Have they completed the main quest with all these characters? Or is it just a kneejerk "THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD WORK" without actually playing it much?
Oh, I'm betting kneejerk.

One mod keeps the rare materials rarer on bandits and marauders, though they _do_ continue to skill up with you and chest loot doesn't vary. There's another one which just stops things from becoming obsolete altogether, so you can still find wolves in the wilderness and weak bandits wearing leather, or plunder a ruin only to find a handful of coins and a cheap ring.

In both cases it's just a matter of tweaking the lower level bound.

--GF

[Gordon Cameron]

But without it, it becomes linear with a very thin veneer of sandbox since there will be a distinct ordering to which areas you can handle and which you can't.

I'll take the leveled sandbox.

But there is a spectrum between those extremes. A non leveled world does restrict certain areas to the starting player, but if you have enough content of varying levels it can still be quite open ended. Maybe not "pure sandbox," but not altogether linear either.

If memory serves, in Morrowind you would die pretty quick if you ventured through the ghostgate before achieving a certain degree of power.

[Timemaster Tim]

If memory serves, in Morrowind you would die pretty quick if you ventured through the ghostgate before achieving a certain degree of power.

And it was even more apparent with the expansions. For example, going off to the northern island of Solstheim (sp?) was not a good idea for a low level character. It didn't feel artificial or linear to me. It just felt like a bad-ass place to visit and I'd better be good enough to handle the shit that came my way. I wasn't prevented from visiting as a low level character. There was no obviously artificial barrier such as the ferryman refusing me passage unless I was level 18.

[Gordon Cameron]

Although now I'm forgetting if it was even possible to get through the Ghostgate without completing some prereq quest. I guess it must have been if that guy won the whole game in 15 minutes or whatever. I don't remember...

[TheWombat]

I'm really hoping that once folks have put some quality time in with the construction set we'll get some really well thought out mods to try. I'm having a blast as it is, but I'd love to try out some of the theories people are bandying around here, if they can be implemented. I'm wondering how different the game would play, say, if the leveling stuff was replaced with an area-centric system, or if the mechanism for character leveling was changed substantially.

I know I found radically different gameplay experiences in Morrowind from a variety of mods.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Although now I'm forgetting if it was even possible to get through the Ghostgate without completing some prereq quest. I guess it must have been if that guy won the whole game in 15 minutes or whatever. I don't remember...

Well, the dude who got through the game in 15 minutes flew over the Ghostfence, IIRC. But Ghostgate wasn't blocked or anything. You could walk right through at the beginning of the game. In fact there's a shrine for the pilgrimage quest right on the other side of it, and that's the first quest in one of the guilds.

[EvilIdler]

Doesn't matter that it's "slow", it matters that it's useless. It serves no purpose in combat.

Actually, I think Athletics serves a purpose in combat for my playstyle. I've been running
into some *really* quick enemies lately.

[Kevin Grey]

I'm really hoping that once folks have put some quality time in with the construction set we'll get some really well thought out mods to try. I'm having a blast as it is, but I'd love to try out some of the theories people are bandying around here, if they can be implemented. I'm wondering how different the game would play, say, if the leveling stuff was replaced with an area-centric system, or if the mechanism for character leveling was changed substantially.


I'm not convinced an area-centric system will work with Oblivion with the existing quest system. As of now, the quests send you to all parts of the world and into the wilderness right from the get go. The first Mages Guild quest will have you visiting every single city as well as numerous wilderness and dungeon areas. If an area-centric leveling system isn't implemented properly then you could be restricting someone from completing one or more of those quests thereby preventing progress within the different guilds.

Gothic 2 works because the majority of the intial requests are completed within the one town or the surrounding areas so you are never really forced to the other, more difficult side of the island in the early going IIRC. Plus you have the chapter system which allows for an excuse to generate new quests as well as harder encounters even in the initial starting area- a hook that Oblivion doesn't have.

I'm sure some of these mods will function as simple stop-gap solutions for specific character classes and playstyles currently having difficulties but I'll be shocked if we see a mod in the near future that is generally acclaimed as a better, more balanced system for just about everyone.

[Igor Muravyev]

But without it, it becomes linear with a very thin veneer of sandbox since there will be a distinct ordering to which areas you can handle and which you can't.

I'll take the leveled sandbox.

Simple, oh so simple. When you go to a new area, the game randomly decides if it should be a lower level, equal level, or higher level. Then until you clear the area out, it will stay that way. So if you come to a level and Dremoras are spawning and you're just level 1, you will get your butt whooped. At the same time, it could have randomly been just rats/goblins spawning there. Different every time you go through it.

People bring up quests, well, either quest dungeons can always level to your level, or they can slowly be ramped up in difficulty (i.e. can't become champion of fighters guild until you are strong enough to beat that dungeon...). Some kind of feeling that you are more powerful is much better then everyone else leveling to you.

Oh, and guess what, I still made a mage/thief/warrior who is killing everyone without even having to resort to healing or potions. So it's possible, and in fact, since I will never encounter anyone higher level than me, I won't have much trouble until more powerful monsters will start spawning (currently level 21).

[Kevin Grey]

People bring up quests, well, either quest dungeons can always level to your level, or they can slowly be ramped up in difficulty (i.e. can't become champion of fighters guild until you are strong enough to beat that dungeon...). Some kind of feeling that you are more powerful is much better then everyone else leveling to you.


But people have to be able to get to the dungeons. Unless you force fast travel on them (not a good option IMO) then you could have a Level 1 dungeon contained within a Level 10 wilderness, making it damn near impossible to reach. And you can't just say "the wilderness should be the same level as the dungeon" because it doesn't take long before your quest map has dungeons located all over the world. It wouldn't take long before the majority of the province was locked in at low levels just due to the sheer number of quests you obtain in the game.

[Igor Muravyev]

But people have to be able to get to the dungeons. Unless you force fast travel on them (not a good option IMO) then you could have a Level 1 dungeon contained within a Level 10 wilderness, making it damn near impossible to reach. And you can't just say "the wilderness should be the same level as the dungeon" because it doesn't take long before your quest map has dungeons located all over the world. It wouldn't take long before the majority of the province was locked in at low levels just due to the sheer number of quests you obtain in the game.

First of all, supposing we didn't take the route of quests having requirements of the player being strong enough..

The wilderness directly surrounding the area can be the same as the dungeon. The wilderness on the way, as long as the quest doesn't involve following NPCs, could be "random" just like everything else. It would be up to the player then to either use fast travel or figure out a way to get through the area (stick to the roads, run like hell, etc). I think people would have more excitement going through a near-player-death experience to get to their location. Can they say its annoying? Sort of, but they could've used fast travel to avoid it!

This might not be obvious, but for every issue that someone raises for the leveling system, there's probably a solution without a leveling system. Of course it involves more thinking for Bethesda ;). You know, kind of like not having two UIs for PC/Xbox ;).

[Kevin Grey]

The wilderness directly surrounding the area can be the same as the dungeon. The wilderness on the way, as long as the quest doesn't involve following NPCs, could be "random" just like everything else. It would be up to the player then to either use fast travel or figure out a way to get through the area (stick to the roads, run like hell, etc). I think people would have more excitement going through a near-player-death experience to get to their location. Can they say its annoying? Sort of, but they could've used fast travel to avoid it!

Most dungeons don't have roads leading to them. And the whole idea of a really tough wilderness area is supposed to be a non-gamey tell that "you probably should be higher level to go there" which is contradicted when the game is also telling you there is an easy dungeon if you can make it through. And requiring fast travel would probably piss off even more people, especially Immersion Cops.

[Dave Markell]

There have been many, many RPG's with static, dangerous, easily accessible content in the past. To give just one example, in Baldur's Gate 2 you could find yourself fighting 18th level liches when your party was level 7. Instant doooooooom.

And that was FUN! The world felt real. There were great perils out there, and if you poked your nose into the wrong place, it got cut off. That approach has traditionally been the norm, not the exception. Oblivion's "everything is always matched to you" design is the novelty, and one I do not like. To me, it smacks of console "dumb-it-downitis".

[Jazar]

Heh those liches were pretty crazy. Wander around some guys basement. Ooh what's this a .......AAAUGGHHHH TIME STOP.... DEAMON SPAWN.... METEOR SHOWER MAKE IT STOPP.

I don't think Oblivion's autoleveling has anying to do with it being on the 360 though.

[Dave Markell]

Heh those liches were pretty crazy. Wander around some guys basement. Ooh what's this a .......AAAUGGHHHH TIME STOP.... DEAMON SPAWN.... METEOR SHOWER MAKE IT STOPP.

Exactly! Great gaming goodness, delivered via content that kicked your sorry ass and made you appreciate returning the favor (much) later on, once you developed l33t skillz of your own.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Exactly! Great gaming goodness, delivered via content that kicked your sorry ass and made you appreciate returning the favor (much) later on, once you developed l33t skillz of your own.

Well, there was that Demilich who was scripted to cast Imprisonment on the main character as soon as you entered his lair. No matter how powerful you were, that one was a teensy bit excessive.

[Dave Markell]

Well, there was that Demilich who was scripted to cast Imprisonment on the main character as soon as you entered his lair. No matter how powerful you were, that one was a teensy bit excessive.

Eh, one Protection from Magic scroll, and he was helpless.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Eh, one Protection from Magic scroll, and he was helpless.

Did that work? I don't remember anymore. I think I beat him through sheer force, just left my main character outside. It was annoying, because my main character was a whirling dervish of death. Probably dealt out 90% of the damage my party did.

Anyway, Oblivion. How 'bout that face creator? Is it damn hard to make a decent looking face or what?

[Graeme Dice]

Well, there was that Demilich who was scripted to cast Imprisonment on the main character as soon as you entered his lair. No matter how powerful you were, that one was a teensy bit excessive.

Kagaxx only casts imprisonement once he becomes a demilich, which only happens after you kill him in lich form after you bring him his golden body parts and give them to him. He also usually casts it on the character that is closest to him, not the main character. The slayer is immune to imprisonement, as is anybody using one of the two protection from magic scrolls available in the game.

[Belisarius]

Exactly! Great gaming goodness, delivered via content that kicked your sorry ass and made you appreciate returning the favor (much) later on, once you developed l33t skillz of your own.

For you. Some of us don't really see games as pain. You might feel that accidentally wandering off the beaten track should result in instant death, and that this is a meaningful message. I think it is as much an artifact of the leveling system as the Oblivion version. If I wanted l33t skillz I would play more counterstrike. The hero's in books don't tend to party wipe and reload, and my internal monologue about my game tends towards this style of play... I like to win first time. You get mileage out of coming back and killing something that caused you to reload. I get my great gaming goodness from the winning, not from the second coming.

[Enidigm]

Everything they did with Oblivion was as if they had read my mind upon deciding how to improve Morrowind.

I think (imo) the main reason for auto-levelling is to ensure that most of the content doesn't become obsolete. Morrowind was bigger; or at least, more winding and out of the way; and missions were nothing more than scripted events within the game. It was relatively easy for them to create dozens (if not hundreds) of easy, short low level newbie missions. The effect was that you could travel to any of the Three Houses and start playing as a rank newbie from there with a whole set of newbie events to work with. The problem was that once you had leveled up to 10+ most of those newbie missions were useless to you and became totally redundant and a waste of time.

This just wasn't feasible with Oblivion because they had decided to create not only scripted mission but scripted speech. They must have felt that the game would have much less to offer if they had fixed levels with far fewer missions and a smaller, more self-contained world, and couldn't afford to have 50%+ of the games' content become obsolete after a mere 10 hours of playtime.

The only real issue with the auto-leveling system is gradation; as long as the Oblivion levels remain noticably harder then other dungeons, whatever the relative level of the monsters, then it doesn't bother the player. It's when random tomb X is as difficult as the hardest enemies in the game that jars the player's credulity.

Also, as to stats min/maxing; alchemy and other skills just need to be adjusted to make them slower to level up.

[DeepT]

I just picked this up yesterday and started my 'night blade' which is basically an assasin/rogue with magical support. One slight mistake I think I might have made is not taking alteration as a primary skill instead of lock picking.

Does lockpicking help you with anything else, besides lock picking? If not, I might as well reroll and get alteration instead. Does it govern pick-pocketing? If so, is that really a skill Ill use a lot or will the items I can lift end up being not worth much?

Is it possible to skip the newbie quest, the one you get before you get your class and birth sign?

It doesn't seem that there is any combat skil to avoid damage other then blocking with a shield. I was really hoping to create a guy who simply can avoid being hit most of the time.

How do you make your own spells? I joind a mage guild, but I can not see how I can get to the 'make your own spell' screen. I want to make some very basic spells to help level up mysticism.

Can blocking work just as well with just a weapon opposed to a shield? I was reading the skill where it talked about master blocking and stuff, it seems to imply you need a shield.

Can you duel wield weapons? I can only equip one dagger.

Is there any differance in 1h weapons that have the same damage listed? IE: I have a rust dagger that does 2 damage, and a sword that does 2 damage. Any differance?

[ElGuapo]

Is it possible to skip the newbie quest, the one you get before you get your class and birth sign?

Doh! If you didn't save right before exiting the sewers (where it prompts you to change your race, sign, and class), you done fucked up. They should have that in the manual, or at least the tutorial as a popup (i.e. you might want to save here if you want to create a new character).

Does anyone know if you can get back into the holding area where you started? I'd love to walk back in there with my back robes and hood, choking Gamorean guards with a wave of my hand, and face the guy who taunts you in the beginning again.

[walTer]

You can block with a sword- it is you only option if you have a 2-handed weapon- but it *seems* to be not as effective as using a shield.

Might just be my perception though.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Kagaxx only casts imprisonement once he becomes a demilich, which only happens after you kill him in lich form after you bring him his golden body parts and give them to him. He also usually casts it on the character that is closest to him, not the main character. The slayer is immune to imprisonement, as is anybody using one of the two protection from magic scrolls available in the game.

Nah, it wasn't Kagaxx, he was a pushover. There was another demilich that did this. Maybe it was in Throne of Bhaal.

[EvilIdler]

Does lockpicking help you with anything else, besides lock picking? If not, I might as well reroll and get alteration instead. Does it govern pick-pocketing? If so, is that really a skill Ill use a lot or will the items I can lift end up being not worth much?

At Lockpicking 62, the pins move very slowly most of the time. And picking
locks is indeed all it's good for; once you have maximum Alteration and can
open Very Hard locks with a spell, Lockpicking is a thing of the past. There's
also the skeleton key, of course.

However, you won't be able to open any locks but what you have spells
for; with a supply of lockpicks, at least you have a chance at *any* lock
that doesn't specifically require a key.



Is it possible to skip the newbie quest, the one you get before you get your class and birth sign?

Yes, someone has been nice enough to put up a savegame right before the
sewer exit so you can get right into character creation. It should be at
TESSource and that fileplanet/gamespy-related site.



It doesn't seem that there is any combat skil to avoid damage other then blocking with a shield. I was really hoping to create a guy who simply can avoid being hit most of the time.

As far as I can tell, your armour skill increases armour points, and therefore
reduces the damage you receive. I've read the relevant sections of the manual
several times now, and can't find anything about dodging. Looks like dodging
is in fact governed by your skills with mouse and keyboard (or pads and
sticks).



How do you make your own spells? I joind a mage guild, but I can not see how I can get to the 'make your own spell' screen. I want to make some very basic spells to help level up mysticism.

You need to get a recommendation from each mage guild to be let into the
Arcane University. To quote several of the snooty NPCs: "They don't just
let anyone in there, which I think is a good idea". Bastards.



Can blocking work just as well with just a weapon opposed to a shield? I was reading the skill where it talked about master blocking and stuff, it seems to imply you need a shield.

Shields work best. Forum posts hint that shields do block the most damage,
but higher skill in Block lets you do neat tricks with a shield, too.



Can you duel wield weapons? I can only equip one dagger.
Dual-wielding isn't possible, and I do miss it. Plus a Parry skill. I think blocking
and parrying should be considered two different skills.


Is there any differance in 1h weapons that have the same damage listed? IE: I have a rust dagger that does 2 damage, and a sword that does 2 damage. Any differance?
Swing-time and reach, most definitely.

[EvilIdler]

Does anyone know if you can get back into the holding area where you started? I'd love to walk back in there with my back robes and hood, choking Gamorean guards with a wave of my hand, and face the guy who taunts you in the beginning again.
Yes :)=
(There's even a quest!)

[Mano]

Does lockpicking help you with anything else, besides lock picking? If not, I might as well reroll and get alteration instead. Does it govern pick-pocketing? If so, is that really a skill Ill use a lot or will the items I can lift end up being not worth much?

As far as I know sneak governs pick pocketing. Usually people have at least a fair bit of gold you can steal and a key to their place. I haven't really pick-pocketed many people though so...


Is it possible to skip the newbie quest, the one you get before you get your class and birth sign?

Not that I know of.


It doesn't seem that there is any combat skil to avoid damage other then blocking with a shield. I was really hoping to create a guy who simply can avoid being hit most of the time.

Alteration and the shiled spell is quite nice. At the higher ranks you can get one that reduces dmg by 50%. But, as far as skills go, maybe acrobatics so you can dodge.


How do you make your own spells? I joind a mage guild, but I can not see how I can get to the 'make your own spell' screen. I want to make some very basic spells to help level up mysticism.

No clue since I still haven't completed the mage quest. I was caught stealing from them and had to go on a quest to get 230 redwort flowers and 20 dragon tongues. God what a pain in the ass that was.


Can blocking work just as well with just a weapon opposed to a shield? I was reading the skill where it talked about master blocking and stuff, it seems to imply you need a shield.

You can block with your weapon, it just not as effective as a shield is.


Can you duel wield weapons? I can only equip one dagger.

Not that I know of.


Is there any differance in 1h weapons that have the same damage listed? IE: I have a rust dagger that does 2 damage, and a sword that does 2 damage. Any differance?

The only difference I know of is the type of weapon affects how easily it gets damaged. I.e. Iron gets damaged faster than steel, and steel faster than ebony etc...

Edit: I was beaten by a faster typer!!!

[TheWombat]

I'm not convinced an area-centric system will work with Oblivion with the existing quest system. As of now, the quests send you to all parts of the world and into the wilderness right from the get go. The first Mages Guild quest will have you visiting every single city as well as numerous wilderness and dungeon areas. If an area-centric leveling system isn't implemented properly then you could be restricting someone from completing one or more of those quests thereby preventing progress within the different guilds.

Gothic 2 works because the majority of the intial requests are completed within the one town or the surrounding areas so you are never really forced to the other, more difficult side of the island in the early going IIRC. Plus you have the chapter system which allows for an excuse to generate new quests as well as harder encounters even in the initial starting area- a hook that Oblivion doesn't have.

I'm sure some of these mods will function as simple stop-gap solutions for specific character classes and playstyles currently having difficulties but I'll be shocked if we see a mod in the near future that is generally acclaimed as a better, more balanced system for just about everyone.

That's my thought, too, but so many folks are saying it can be done better, I'm eager to see what happens :)

[Graeme Dice]

Nah, it wasn't Kagaxx, he was a pushover. There was another demilich that did this. Maybe it was in Throne of Bhaal.

You're right that there was another one, but I don't remember him only casting on the protagonist. However, that's probably because I played a mage and always had spell trap active.

[ElGuapo]

Usually people have at least a fair bit of gold you can steal and a key to their place.

If you stole their key and then they couldn't get back into their house and had to sleep in the inn or even better, wander aimlessly around town yawning forever, that would be awesome.

[DeepT]

Hmm, so if all lock picking is good for is picking locks, and not pickpocketing, then I think alteration would be better.

I can still pick locks manually, if I do not have a spell. It just should I pick a skill that has ONE uses, or another skill that does what another skill does AND 20 other things.

My idea is an magical assasin type. He kills by normal stealth and combat abilities, however, he uses magic to enhance himself a lot and do a lot of utility things. I do envision him using destuction as a ranged attack instead of arrows. Id probabbly only use it when getting close is dangerous, otherwise id favor a backstab.

Its shame they took out climbing as a skill, I loved that in daggerfall. You can still fly, right? If so, what happens if you fly over the wall of a city?

[walTer]

You can still fly, right? If so, what happens if you fly over the wall of a city?


no fly :(

[DeepT]

If you stole their key and then they couldn't get back into their house and had to sleep in the inn or even better, wander aimlessly around town yawning forever, that would be awesome.

I got caught by the guards when I was pickpocketing him (I didnt know just looking was a crime) and went to a town near by the imperial city, the one with the corrupt guards. Anyway, I joined the mages guild and then followed the leader into his room. It took forever for him to go in. I do not know if it was because he kept spotting me or if he just mills around the basement at night for a while.

So I get into the room, the door closes, he goes to bed, and I am trapped. I get lucky and pickpocket the key off him (is there much, if any advantage when they are asleep?). I unlock the door and walk out.

The next morning he is out and about and his bedroom door is locked still. I guess they can't be trapped inside. It would have been funny to come back a month later and find a rotting corpse in there.

[DeepT]

no fly :(

Leaping? Is there any way to get vertical movement in the game?

[Gordon Cameron]

I was actually wondering whether a very high Acrobatics skill gave you a higher jump. In Morrowind I made a "Ring of the Jersey Devil" with an Acro boost that allowed me to hop around from rooftop to rooftop.

[Enidigm]

You could combine a high feather and a high acrobatics skill. Maybe stack some Restoration-buffed stats on there as well.

Is there a slow-fall spell still?

Yes, i think acrobatics causes you to jump higher.

[quatoria]

Yes :)=
(There's even a quest!)

One of the most awesome quests I've come across in the game, too. Make sure you talk to him first. :D

[EvilIdler]

Yes, i think acrobatics causes you to jump higher.
Oh yes, it does. It doesn't even need to be Journeyman level before you're jumping many times as high or far as with just 5 skill.

[Moore]

Doh! If you didn't save right before exiting the sewers (where it prompts you to change your race, sign, and class), you done fucked up. They should have that in the manual, or at least the tutorial as a popup (i.e. you might want to save here if you want to create a new character).

there is a mod that gives a quest skip option as well. Betetr solution than a savegame if you are using mods, as some mods need a fresh start to work properly

The unarmored skill is what you'd want in previous TES titles for representing dodging. It was removed.

[Moore]

One of the most awesome quests I've come across in the game, too. Make sure you talk to him first. :D


Awww, I didnt even try, there was a guard loitering that wouldnt leave, so I poison arrow sniped the prisoner and ran like hell.

[DeepT]

What is the spell efficency thingy I see? Is that based on my armor? Its like 91% right now. If it is on armor, is it total Armor points or Armor type?

[Moore]

armor type AND especially your skill with that armor. If you master using an armor type, you get no penalty.

[Gordon Cameron]

I'm pretty sure it's armor based, and is a calculation of a) armor type (heavy being worse for spellcasters, I think) and b) your armor proficiency for that type. I don't know more than that, though.

[shang]

Does lockpicking help you with anything else, besides lock picking? If not, I might as well reroll and get alteration instead. Does it govern pick-pocketing? If so, is that really a skill Ill use a lot or will the items I can lift end up being not worth much?

Nope, and once you learn the lock-picking mini-game well, the skill becomes entirely useless. I didn't take the lockpick skill at all, and I can open Very Hard locks just fine.

[instant0]

Nope, and once you learn the lock-picking mini-game well, the skill becomes entirely useless. I didn't take the lockpick skill at all, and I can open Very Hard locks just fine.

Same, at 50 skill now and I can open Very Hard with 1 pick, just have to listen. Its kinda funny actually, that it was quite easy to learn, but still takes some skill to master. I like twitch factor in games.. [Not Starcraft Micro Manage 3000 units with "shitty AI"...]

[DeepT]

I still go through picks like candy, but I do know the differnce in the sound. I just need to train myself to click when I hear it, and not jump the gun as soon as I hear any sound.


If you kill a guard in the middle of a road not near any NPC, do you get a bounty or anything? IE: No witnesses, so no crime.

[instant0]

I still go through picks like candy, but I do know the differnce in the sound. I just need to train myself to click when I hear it, and not jump the gun as soon as I hear any sound.


If you kill a guard in the middle of a road not near any NPC, do you get a bounty or anything? IE: No witnesses, so no crime.

Think you have to silence him and/or kill him with one hit, according to another poster, for it to work.

... He probably activates his Hive Mind Alert System (tm) if he gets a chance to 'react' to being attacked.

[shang]

Think you have to silence him and/or kill him with one hit, according to another poster, for it to work.

I have no idea how the rules work. At least when murdering people inside their houses, it seems that you are on the clear as long as they don't get the chance to run out of the house into the streets.

[DeepT]

I also got the anti-pychic guard mod which puts a shout radious limit. Hmm silence though, that would be cool. They also need an AoE darkness spell of some kind.

[instant0]

I also got the anti-pychic guard mod which puts a shout radious limit. Hmm silence though, that would be cool. They also need an AoE darkness spell of some kind.

There is an anti psychic Guard mod?! Got any links to that, or the name so I can search for it?

... I had a fun experience yesterday, I stole the staff from one of the council members.. 500 charges, 80 dps. Killed the Palace Guards with 2 shots.

I only got 3 guards on me, as they were within "hearing range".. But I still got a bounty of 2.4k on me and guards chasing me when I exited the council chambers area. :-(

I want to disable psychic guards, please tell me its possible.

[Igor Muravyev]

You guys are thinking of something else, Silence makes them unable to cast spell for the duration, they can still talk just fine and call for reinforcements ;).

[DeepT]

Look in the MODs thread, there is a link to a site that has a bunch of mods on them. I listed all the gameplay ones and picked that one (amoung others). I was temped to get a vampirims mod, but all of them kind of were either lame or overpowerd.

The anti-psychic guards mod just makes it so there is a shout radious when you attack someone, so that guards do not magicaly teleport to you from anywhere. Also if there are no witnesses to the crime, then there is no faction hit. All this makes perfect sense so I picked it. Bethelsda sure has thier head up thier ass on some things and this is one of them.

[instant0]

I found the no psychic guards mod, unfortunately the download link is fileplanet, no worries; I'll make my own. Thanks to the TES Toolkit. Yay :-)

Edit: Never mind, found it at TesSource as well. Thanks for the name =)

[Charles]

So I'm forced to abandon my mage. My first trip in to oblivion was ridiculously hard. Not only were they throwing higher level enemies at me because of my level (6 or 7), but any spell I could cast that had a real effect on those enemies cost so much mana I was out of mana after a single fight.

I don't know if it's a balance issue or what, but trying to free kvatch was impossible. I burned through all my welkynd stones (25+) just doing the key escort. Screw that. Something is broken with mages that you need to use a full mana bar to kill an enemy.

Edit: Oh yeah, and distance spells travel so slow it's impossible to hit anything that isn't directly in front of you. GG.

[Belisarius]

There is a mod out increasing base mana which might help you, but you are right. Pure mage play in this game is going to be an uphill battle from day 1.

[Charles]

the whole intelligence/mana thing is totally broken. From what I can see, your mana pool is roughly 4x your intelligence. And considering that spells that do 25 damage use 60 mana... well, you can see where it breaks down.

[Belisarius]

Without the mod? Mana is 2x Intel. Plus whatever from class/sign. The mod lets you get up to x5 Intel afaik. This is a lot more room to play.

I must admit I always approached the game as if magic was one of a range of skills that you should use, not the only one. This just bring us back to the notion that some people go with a narrow definition of their character and suffer in this game. I use magic a little, and it is great help in my adventuring. I love that my character is a ninja assassin guy who can still be good at magic. I would not want to be relying on it alone :)

[RepoMan]

I still go through picks like candy, but I do know the differnce in the sound. I just need to train myself to click when I hear it, and not jump the gun as soon as I hear any sound.

Arrgh! I've been trying and trying to get the hang of The Sound. Problem is, I have some pretty significant hearing loss in the high frequencies (maybe due to bad earaches as a child -- I have something like 50% dropoff near 16Khz) and it's DAMN HARD for me to hear the subtle differences in the sound. You all are probably thinking "subtle differences??? Dude, it's not subtle at all, what are you, deaf???" And maybe that's my tough frickin' luck.

What I need is a mod to make the sound difference a LOT more obvious. Any leads on that?! "Easier Picking" or something maybe....

And on that note, my current mods list:
- Plus 5 Level Ups Always
- Deadlier Sneaking
- Forgrum's Travelogue
- Khajiit Night-Eye Toggle
- No More Annoying Messages
- No psychic guards 1.1
- NPC Equipment Rarity

Dude, why would anyone play the 360 version of this game with this many mods less than two weeks after release? Everyone keep me posted if you see an Easier Lockpicking mod... (I'll go recheck the wiki now, seems like that thing is growing 10% per day....)

[scharmers]

My Oblivion mods list stands at 0. Then again, like someone else here, I'm taking a break from Oblivion to see what the developers do with it, and to wait for the initial spasm of interesting-but-broken-on-the-first-ten-releases mods to mature.

So I'm going back to Morrowind, with the Octopus Overlords mod disk. I actually already used about 75% of the mods included on that disk, and it doesn't include Morrowind: Underground, but there are still some nice additions there I never could find the first time.

Or maybe I'll work on the live-in whore mod for Oblivion.

[Charles]

Without the mod? Mana is 2x Intel. Plus whatever from class/sign. The mod lets you get up to x5 Intel afaik. This is a lot more room to play.

I must admit I always approached the game as if magic was one of a range of skills that you should use, not the only one. This just bring us back to the notion that some people go with a narrow definition of their character and suffer in this game. I use magic a little, and it is great help in my adventuring. I love that my character is a ninja assassin guy who can still be good at magic. I would not want to be relying on it alone :)

Well, bethesda pretty much made it so you have to do that. Not only, but most of the spells are ridiculously useless. Only lasts for 30 seconds? 15? Come on. If you wanted to wear a completely conjured set of bound armor, by the time you summoned the last piece, the first would be gone.

Reduce the mana cost of all spells by 50%, add a bit more growth to the mana pool, and multiply the average spell duration by at least 5, and a mage *might* be viable. Most of the spells are useless as is.

[TrodKnee]

Not disagreeing with the mage nerfage complaints, but have you tried just lowering the difficulty slider? You can raise it back up again after you have pimped out your character...

[Jazar]

Dude, why would anyone play the 360 version of this game with this many mods less than two weeks after release? Everyone keep me posted if you see an Easier Lockpicking mod... (I'll go recheck the wiki now, seems like that thing is growing 10% per day....)

Maybe because most people don't have a nuclear powered PC? In a year or two I'll gladly pick up Oblivion GOTY edition with an addon or two, plus all the mods that will make it a completely new game with a brand new smoking PC.

Besides I'm having no problems with the game mechanics or graphcis as is.

[Case]

So I'm forced to abandon my mage. My first trip in to oblivion was ridiculously hard. Not only were they throwing higher level enemies at me because of my level (6 or 7), but any spell I could cast that had a real effect on those enemies cost so much mana I was out of mana after a single fight.


The difficulty slider is your friend. You can adjust it any time except when actually in combat.

[Dave Long]

People don't like to move the difficulty slider since that's effectively admitting defeat/cheating to a lot of us.

That said, I've been a-ok with my mostly melee-based character who uses Restoration magic simply as a support mechanism to heal and protect. I also buy and regularly use a lot of potions.

[Chris Nahr]

Regarding lockpicking: I tried to follow the "listen to the sound" suggestions and had absolutely no success, even though I have pretty good hearing. What you have to do is click exactly when the tumbler hits the top.

Some tumblers are slower -- they move up more slowly, and they stay at the top a little bit longer. Other are faster -- they rise faster, and they don't stay as long. It's always both that's slower or faster.

You don't waste lockpicks for just pushing tumblers up and watching them fall down, without clicking. So for any difficult lock, just push all tumblers up and gauge their relative speed. When you feel comfortable start picking the lock for real, memorizing the time a specific tumbler takes from starting upward to hitting the top, and clicking just after that time.

That system worked pretty well for me so far. Sometimes I still just click auto-picking when I'm too nervous to pick the lock myself, though.

[Charles]

If I was going to use the difficulty slider, I might as well just find a mod to make myself invincible.

As for lock picking, tumblers will occasionally drop fast, and occasionally drop slow. If one seems fast, give it a few tries. It will eventually go slow.

[instant0]

If I was going to use the difficulty slider, I might as well just find a mod to make myself invincible.

As for lock picking, tumblers will occasionally drop fast, and occasionally drop slow. If one seems fast, give it a few tries. It will eventually go slow.

Just turn up the audio, there is a subtle difference in sound when they're "right"... some practice and you'll be doing Very Hard on first try..

Also equip a torch.

[Chris Nahr]

Regarding classes, attributes, etc: Multiple lightbulbs went off above my head, comic-book style, when I got the real manual (i.e. the one sold separately under the misleading name "Strategy Guide") and finally got the lowdown on all the class & race stats and a wealth of tips on what the Bethesda guys themselves consider viable character builds.

As for the combat mage problem, the SG calls a pure combat mage "fun, active, and risky" which should give you some idea of how difficult it is! A magic user should definitely take one of the Magicka-enhancing birthsigns and probably also cross-specialize in combat or stealth. A pure mage who wades into battle just with spells is pretty damn hard to play, and definitely needs to melee with bound weapons a lot.

The game definitely seems designed for melee combat characters... anything else is a hidden difficulty increase. Mages need to somehow acquire combat skills, thieves need either invisibility or lots of poison. In a way Oblivion is the first CRPG that's actually serious about the concept that only fighters can dish out and take a lot of damage: in other games warriors are often the worst characters since you can build up just about anyone to the same combat proficiency. That's just not true in Oblivion, fighting with a non-fighter is just plain harder.

My own character, on second restart, is a melee warrior with Restoration, much like Dave's. Haven't come far yet but looks optimal judging by the system, and wolves or bandits are no problem which is better than what some people report!

Details: Nord, Combat specialization, Mage birthsign, Paladin custom class: favored attributes Strength and Endurance, major skills Armorer, Heavy Armor, Blade, Block, Blunt, Marksman, Restoration.

Why the Mage birthsign? Because the SG specifically mentioned that spells are insanely expensive in terms of Magicka, ergo anyone who wants to do any spellcasting at all in the long run had better take the Mage birthsign, especially with low Intelligence! At Magicka = 2 x Int, the 50 Magicka bonus equals a whopping 25 extra Int -- a huge boost that allows me to train minor magic skills very quickly with repeat castings of cheap spells, and also makes medium-powerful spells immediately accessible.

[Enidigm]

I'd go further and say that pure anything is rather terribly hard. Try playing a "vanilla" warrior, with little or no magic, and you'll find yourself in some pretty sticky situations.

Right now i'd argue that the Bretons are the strongest starting race as far as abilities go. Magica resistance just makes them tougher, and Dragon Shield gives them a good chance when things get hairy. And unlike the High Elves, there are no drawbacks to their high mana.

I restarted a few times :). My Imperial Knight is doing ok; her key is the Blood of the North birthsign. It's probably the best birthsign spell out of all them. 90 hp healed for 50 mana; usually it takes 1.2 or more mana per point of hp healed. Blood of the North has been her most used spell thus far.

My Breton Sorceror shows potential, with the Lady birthsign. As she levels she should get plenty of extra HP, and i've been specificially working on her Endurance. The key to pure spellcasters is Summoning; with something other then yourself to tank you can hang back and let battles take a while longer then usual, helping to keep your mana regen'ed.

Of course the key to mana/health regen or degen in the long run is Alchemy.

[Lunch of Kong]

What you have to do is click exactly when the tumbler hits the top.

A better way is to completely ignore what's on your screen and to treat it as an audio reflex game:

Flick your mouse upwards. If you hear a single "ping" don't do anything. If you hear two "pings" in quick succession, click! You have about 300ms after the last ping to make that determination.

The only time I break lockpicks now is when I've had too much coffee.

[Major Malphunktion]

Well, my character is a Thief/ftr who likes pets. I dabble in destruction and restoration magic, but those are definately secondary.
I think my favorite thing about the game is even if you dont have a solid line to the skill,you can still dabble in it.
Sneak,marksman,security,light armor,blades(thank god),conjering,and one other i forget, acrobatics i think.

[scharmers]

The tank+restoration was probably the most viable choice in Morrowind, and it looks like it's the same way with Oblivion, at least what I've played so far. The pure Thief characters, the love of us role-playing types, was more viable in Morrowind (thanks to static loot, as opposed to the two septims and an hour-glass levelled loot in Oblivion) and although you didn't get the guarenteed damage bonus f Oblivion, you got the megadeath first-hit of the area effect arrows. Plus you could hop on some convenient geometry if your acrobatics were high enough and rain missile death from above.

As for pure damage spellcasters (or MRLS'es, as I call them) you could pure cheese in MW, especially if you were a flying MRLS. I don't like pure blasticus casters or cheesy spellswords as a rule, but it sounds like Bethsoft really nerfed the casters in Oblivion. Too bad for you caster-loving types :)

We need someone like, say, Wakim to lock himself in a closet for the next month or so and then come out with Wakim's Oblivion Improvements, V1.

[Peter Frazier]

Let me just say that my Conjurer has this game easy. He's a Breton born under the sign of the mage. From levels 1-5 I dropped down a zombie which the AI obligingly focussed on. Zombies take a lot of hits, so I'd either blast or hack away at the bad guys whilst my meat shield did his job. After level 5, (and it took me a long time to get there- my guy is on benzedrine and never sleeps) I was able to summon Daedroths. The Daedroth is my official Big Green Buddy. He kills everyone. I like to run across Cyrodil, picking up as many alchemical ingredients as I can at high speed. As soon as I hear the threat music I spawn my Big Green Buddy and don't even look back. Visitors to the Imperial province may sometimes comment on the strange singing alchemist who can be seen picking flowers whilst sprinting across the valleys, a bloody trail of wolves and bandits behind him.....

[EvilIdler]

If I was going to use the difficulty slider, I might as well just find a mod to make myself invincible.

The difficulty setting is NOT an on/off setting ;)

[Charles]

It doesn't matter. A game should be balanced to be playable at the default settings. If not, it's broken.

The more I play, the more I realize that they didn't do much balance testing on the game. Seems from what I've read and from what I've experienced in the game that the only way to have a decent experience that isn't rabidly difficult is to make a character that wears heavy armor, attacks with a sword, and can heal himself. Duurrr.

[Shadari]

It doesn't matter. A game should be balanced to be playable at the default settings. If not, it's broken.

The more I play, the more I realize that they didn't do much balance testing on the game. Seems from what I've read and from what I've experienced in the game that the only way to have a decent experience that isn't rabidly difficult is to make a character that wears heavy armor, attacks with a sword, and can heal himself. Duurrr.
Glad I went with my custom paladin class. :P

But yeah, this game is almost as badly balanced as Morrowind was.

[scharmers]

It doesn't matter. A game should be balanced to be playable at the default settings. If not, it's broken.

One man's "balanced settings" are another man's "munchkin's paradise". Or another man's Tie Fighter at the hardest settings at 2x time increase.

[Charles]

One man's "balanced settings" are another man's "munchkin's paradise". Or another man's Tie Fighter at the hardest settings at 2x time increase.


Of course, that will always be the case. But it should at least be constant with regards to certain types of classes. From what I've seen, they didn't even bother to see if the game was playable at all with pure casters.

Seems to me like they drafted their idea of how all the skill systems should work, and then implemented it without any kind of test/feedback loop.

[rjcc]

charles, I completely disagree with you.

That anyone can say "I should be be satisfied with this game without ever changing a setting" is just a silly thing to say. If you are unhappy with your experience, you should be able to adjust it so that you are.

wait, you can adjust it so that you are?

ok then, problem solved. as long as the ability to adjust is there, you have nothing to compalin about, theres nothing stopping you from using it, and it's not like you have to enter a cheat code to find it.

next we'll be criticizing auto manufacturers for creating cars that do either more or less than the speed limit. If they don't sell one with the acceleration and top speed locked, and you have to keep "pressing" the pedal to figure out how fast you want to go, the automobile is broken.

[JamesL]

What I think Charles is saying is that in any game, especially a freeform roleplaying game like Oblivion, all classes should be, at the very least, as viable at any difficulty another class is. It will be, of course, slightly harder with certain classes, and slightly easier with other classes (no balance is perfect), but all classes should be able to do it, and there shouldn't be a massive gap, like there is in Oblivion.

Oblivion's character progression system, as it stands, is lackluster at best. You gain a few levels and you're all excited, thinking that your
character is going to become awesome and strong and you will crush your opponents and hear the lamentations of their women and save the world from Oblivion - and then you realize, slowly, that every time you level you're actually getting weaker. Until it reaches a point where, if you've focused on anything else besides a main combat skill, you're going to have to turn the difficulty slider down and then down again and then down again as you get higher level. You shouldn't have to dumb the game down because you wanted to do something else besides make a pure fighting character. It's silly. It's as if WoW was like "Oh, you didn't pick Paladin or Shaman? We'll just have to make all the instances easier when you enter."

Luckily, it's a blemish on an otherwise beautiful game. And I expect we'll see some mods shortly that will make it much better (in fact, we're almost already there)