Dominions 3 website updated

[GuildBoss]

http://shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/Dom3/1.htm

Looks like it should be out in June.

And what's this:

an in-depth manual written by industry veteran Bruce Geryk

Neat.

[Kevin McGuire]

Three different ages sounds pretty cool - I guess Golden Age Arcocephale will get some company... It will be interesting to see what "less micromanagement" turns into (automated magic searching and blood hunts?). By "new popups" I guess they mean more tool tips? That sounds great, and pretty helpful for new players.

And of course, a manual by Bruce should be great (I wonder if Dominions Haiku are too much to hope for...).

[SlyFrog]

I took a look at the screenshots - I'm having a hard time seeing an substantive difference between it and Dominions 2. The Shrapnel webpage talks about the new lush graphics and what not. What am I missing? What has changed?

[metta]

Would it kill them to hire a real artist? That main map screen is still made of arse. :(

[Backov]

I took a look at the screenshots - I'm having a hard time seeing an substantive difference between it and Dominions 2. The Shrapnel webpage talks about the new lush graphics and what not. What am I missing? What has changed?

It's probably pretty minor.. Indie dev is all about incremental development remember. But as long as they've fixed a lot of the stupid things I'll be happy with a very minor graphics upgrade.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

an in-depth manual written by industry veteran Bruce Geryk

Considering that only his walkthrough made the game comprehensible, this is the most important part to me.

Interesting to see that they are still are going with the Butt Ugly graphics engine.

Troy

[Ch. Hasslbauer]

Graphics in Dominions is absolutely no factor. Dom is about putting things in your head, not about throwing around eye candy. If they give the player more ingame support, and a better GUI, and perhaps even remedy some of the worst imbalances and killer combos, I'll be the happiest man on this planet.

And Bruce Geryk writing the manual? <shiver!> So there is a god. Yeah!

[Hanacker]

$55 if you don't preorder? That's a little steep. I'm sure I'll get it anyway, and a $5 increase over Dom 2 isn't a huge deal , but still...

[Rollory]

$55 if you don't preorder? That's a little steep. I'm sure I'll get it anyway, and a $5 increase over Dom 2 isn't a huge deal , but still...

Bet you GoGamer will have it for cheaper.

[Johan O]

Would it kill them to hire a real artist? That main map screen is still made of arse. :(
Yes it would.

[Johan O]

Considering that only his walkthrough made the game comprehensible, this is the most important part to me.

Interesting to see that they are still are going with the Butt Ugly graphics engine.

Troy
Well it's our butt.

[Matt Perkins]

Considering that only his walkthrough made the game comprehensible, this is the most important part to me.

Interesting to see that they are still are going with the Butt Ugly graphics engine.

Troy
Here's my problem...the manual shouldn't be required to play the game. Sure, to get an in depth understanding of it, great. But what about an intuitive interface, tool tips, help, tutorials, etc, etc? Dom2 featured none of that and if the screenshots aren't lying, neither will Dom3.

It won't affect me greatly as I already know how to play, but that was the biggest step in me buying it, figuring out how the game even worked. If they can't change the interface, it will continue to not be a broader category game.

[Johan O]

It's probably pretty minor.. Indie dev is all about incremental development remember. But as long as they've fixed a lot of the stupid things I'll be happy with a very minor graphics upgrade.
Hopefully at least some.

[metta]

Yes it would.

Then they should drop the price.

[Johan O]

I'm working hard on upping the post count so we can get a respectable 100 pages.

[Johan O]

Then they should drop the price.
Ok, I'll pass that on, I am sure everyone will give your thoughtfull advice the consideration it deserves.

[metta]

Oh, I didn't realise you were seeking thoughtful counsel. I assumed you were being glib when you wrote 'Yes it would'.

[Johan O]

Oh, I didn't realise you were seeking thoughtful counsel. I assumed you were being glib when you wrote 'Yes it would'.
Well I was mostly glib. But dom3 wouldn't be made at all if Kristoffer wasn't allowed to sit around and doodle up his pixelated men. Kristoffers passion for drawing pixelated men is the driving force behind the creation of the dominions games. Besides, I imagine hiring an artist to redraw all the sprites in the game would cost significantly more than IW is able to shell out. So it is not really an option.

The demo will be inclusive enough to allow you to make an informed choice on buying the game.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Here's my problem...the manual shouldn't be required to play the game. Sure, to get an in depth understanding of it, great. But what about an intuitive interface, tool tips, help, tutorials, etc, etc? Dom2 featured none of that and if the screenshots aren't lying, neither will Dom3.

It won't affect me greatly as I already know how to play, but that was the biggest step in me buying it, figuring out how the game even worked. If they can't change the interface, it will continue to not be a broader category game.

I mostly agree with you.

Dom 2 was great - hideous, but great. One of my favorite strategy games of recent years, though I never got very good at it.

But the lack of in-game help - especially in a day and age where this sort of thing is common in much worse games - made me feel that my appreciation was unrequited.

But, in lieu of an up-to-date in-game interface (or, god forbid, a tutorial) I will take a well written manual.

Troy

[Matt Perkins]

Troy

Of course, I'm just saying if they would spend the time on the UI, it would be a bigger seller.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Troy

Of course, I'm just saying if they would spend the time on the UI, it would be a bigger seller.

How much bigger though? Even a demo that revealed a better UI would still have to get past the artfully drawn pixellated men, the plethora of races and powers and an economic/military/magic system that probably needs more than a few rollover tips or DominoPedia entries to figure out.

It might sell more, and more is better than less. The question of the time and resource investment required has to measured against how much more this would actually amount to.

They should do it more because this make me happy.

Troy

[Hanacker]

Troy

Of course, I'm just saying if they would spend the time on the UI, it would be a bigger seller.

The Devs have also stated that they hate spending time on the UI.

[Jasper]

That doesn't necessarily mean much, as most developers hate working on UI -- it's mind numbingly tedious and hard to test code, however valuable it might be in the end.

Illwinter seems intent upon improving Dominions (e.g. hiring Bruce Geryk for the manual), and so perhaps they've listened to fan feedback and improved the UI as well. Judging from the screenshots alone, I can see what looks like substantial improvement in presentation of information.

Besides, it might be worth at least waiting for the demo before bagging on Dom 3's UI.

[Gordon Cameron]

That doesn't necessarily mean much, as most developers hate working on UI

Yeah... I hate cleaning my bathroom, but it's gotta get done.

Actually, I don't clean it anywhere near often enough, so I guess I can relate to the Dom boys.

But until they work out the UI issues here is one customer who will probably not plop down the cash. I even tried to work through Bruce Geryk's heroic tutorial, but I didn't get over that hump of total bewilderment to the paradise of understanding and positive feedback.

[GuildBoss]

Well I was mostly glib. But dom3 wouldn't be made at all if Kristoffer wasn't allowed to sit around and doodle up his pixelated men. Kristoffers passion for drawing pixelated men is the driving force behind the creation of the dominions games. Besides, I imagine hiring an artist to redraw all the sprites in the game would cost significantly more than IW is able to shell out. So it is not really an option.

The demo will be inclusive enough to allow you to make an informed choice on buying the game.

I fookin love the artwork! Old-school pixelated men r0xXor!

Seriously.

[Dave Perkins]

I fookin love the artwork! Old-school pixelated men r0xXor!

Seriously.

I agree. When I first gazed upon Dom2, I thought it looked like it was made for Atari. But now I like it. Sorta like I far prefer Heroes III style units to Heroes IV.

[Mike O'Malley]

The UI is one of my favorite parts of Dom2. I can load it up at work, start a game and then go for a walk. My coworkers will stop by and have no idea what the hell is going on with my PC. With the map options turned off, all they do is stare at the boxes. Some are different colors, some have lines in them, some are bigger than others.

It's a great feeling to just play a game right under their noses.

[Dave Perkins]

Lol, Mike.. nice.

I hope Dom3 makes it easier to see what magic items are being wielded by whom. That one change alone would be worth $55.

[Peter Frazier]

I hope the game doesn't rely on ultra-cheesy tactics to win. Multiplayer stopped being fun when people started reading enough threads to figure out best-practice play styles.

[jpinard]

Couldn't he rent the Rome Total War engine? Or some(any) kind of 3d engine? Yikes that's still ugly. He could even use the Age of Wonders Shadow Magic engine to better the graphic engine. That'd be nice.

I never did learn how to play Dom 2. I tried many, many time and just got too confused.

[Jason Lutes]

I hope the game doesn't rely on ultra-cheesy tactics to win. Multiplayer stopped being fun when people started reading enough threads to figure out best-practice play styles.
There's really no way for them to avoid this problem. The flipside of the everything-and-the-kitchen-sink design that makes Dominions (and Conquest of Elysium) so great is that it's impossible to de-cheese. And even though I quickly tired of the sorts of tactics you describe, I'll take the messy Pandora's Box of Dominions over the dull, filing-cabinet balance of any AAA strategy game out there. The best solution is just to try to find opponents of a similar skill level, which is true of any multiplayer game, really.

I fookin love the artwork! Old-school pixelated men r0xXor!

Seriously.
I'll third that sentiment. Kristoffer does a lot with very little, and your imagination does the rest. I still love the unit graphics in MoM for the same reason.

[Saber Cherry]

And Bruce Geryk writing the manual? <shiver!> So there is a god.

There are many. Many, many, many... with many many arms :)


Would it kill them to hire a real artist? That main map screen is still made of arse.

They have a real artist, and a very talented one at that. However [/hushed tones]I think that map was made by an AI![/hushed tones] You have a point; there would be more mass appeal if IW hired the character designer for FF7... :p (j/k)

...most developers hate working on UI -- it's mind numbingly tedious and hard to test code, however valuable it might be in the end.

Oh, God(s), how well I know. And I write Java, in which UI is supposedly easy. The problem is that any effort you put into struggling with UI doesn't actually accomplish anything "real" - you end up with the same program, that is more pleasing to other people, but no real personal gain. A tutorial and vastly improved UI would improve Dominions' sales and ratings infinitely more than adding hundreds of units and spells, but... how many automotive enthusiasts do you see messing with the exterior of their car on weekends? How many computer geeks actually mod their own case, using money that could instead be spent on bigger RAM-sinks and additional fans?

...I've seen evidence of these people, but never actually met them. I think most case modding is done by professionals who get paid for it full-time. And robots :)

I hope Dom3 makes it easier to see what magic items are being wielded by whom.

Yeah, it looks like you can see gems, diseases, and other things Commanders carry on the main map screen.

[metta]

They have a real artist, and a very talented one at that. However [/hushed tones]I think that map was made by an AI![/hushed tones] You have a point; there would be more mass appeal if IW hired the character designer for FF7... :p (j/k)


I don't mind the combat screens so much, the 'pixelated men' look fine to me, it's the main game screen that gives me a migraine. The game already has an enormous barrier to entry, in my opinion; its systems are complicated and opaque; why make things worse with an uninviting main screen? For $65 (CDN) I expect a little more polish.

It doesn't need to look like FF7, but hells bells, does it have to look like shareware?

[Matt Perkins]

Yeah, basically, Dom2 is a GREAT game...except the UI/grahpics are a chore to use and worse to learn.

I don't know what they are doing with Dom3 as all I've seen are screenshots and some listed features, but if Dom3 had graphics/UI near Civ4, for instance, it would be a HUGE seller. At least I think so.

[Dave Perkins]

We're still playing the Dom2 game referenced here (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=22399), and 5 of the original 6 people are still alive at turn 70-ish. My biggest army just clashed with Ermor's biggest army; 25 commanders lost and 200+ units killed, about a dozen battlefield-wide spells cast. A Wraith Lord, protected by Darkness, sucked the life out of enough of my soldiers that they finally fled. When I bemoaned (via email) the fact that I couldn't quite kill him (I got him to 4hp and plucked out an eye, but his Soul Vortex kept restoring his life), my opponent replied:

It looked like the mind burns were very effective and were doing the most damage. The Just Man's Crosses were a good idea, but scripting "large enemy monsters" probably made them target the cyclops. The wraith lord is just a regular guy - size 2. And, with the cyclops having something like 26 protection, 10 armor piercing, no strength added crossbow bolts aren't even going to scratch him. Try scripting "enemy fliers" instead, as the wraith lord was my only flying unit in that fight. You might also need to find some commanders with higher precision to do the shooting, especially if the fight is going to be in darkness again. If you can summon Firbolgs (I think - a medium-level nature summon that most people don't use much), they're quite good at archery.
Only a true gaming gentleman would offer suggestions on how I could win the battle next time!

Anyhow, we set the magic resources to 20% or something, so gems are hard to come by. Thus, the game has featured mainly low-level huge armies rather than super-combatants, and it's been great fun. I look forward to our next Dom2 game.

[olaf]

Considering that only his walkthrough made the game comprehensible, this is the most important part to me.
Yeah, same.

olaf

[Jab2565]

Yeah, same.

olaf

Me too , but barely, his guide was just enough for me to even try dom2, but I really couldn't get into it.

[Dr Fear]

The French magazine Cyberstratege gave permission for its interview with one of the designers to be posted on the web. This is from the Shrapnel forums.

Here's the full, uncut original version of the interview granted by Kristoffer O. for Cyberstratege, the French strategy game mag (go see us at www.cyberstratege.com !).
With kind permission of Kristoffer and Théophile Monnier, Cyberstratege founder/chief redactor

Cyber - We've had Dominions:PPP in 2000, Dominions II in 2003, now Dominions 3 : what keeps you continuing to develop this title?

KO : The fun of it. Positive feedback on our games. When I hear that people like what I do I feel inspired and want to add more stuff.

Cyber - Tell us briefly what will be the main changes/new stuff in Dom3.

KO : Dominions 3 is called the Awakening. Awakening? Yep. When you create your pretender he/she is dormant, bound or imprisoned by the previous pantocrator. With his departure the demigods and spirits of the world are awakening to don his mantle. When you design your pretender you must choose whether your god is already awake or if he/she is still asleep or bound.

There are new pretenders, new spells, new items and approximately 1500 units. New national summons for several nations. There is a random map generator that generates nice maps with mountain ranges and special sites. Some nations build cave cities. Modding will be easier and more elements in the game will be accessible to modding. Nations, recruitment queues, special dominion effects etc will be moddable. Graphics are better with nicer battle fields. The AI builds forts. Super combattants are nerfed, or rather life drain is. The economy is more generous to allow bigger armies. We have also tried to decrease micromanagement and make the UI more accessible.

Cyber - We've heard of the new nations and the era concept replacing Dom2 themes... Who are the newcomers ? How will eras work?

KO : Nations and themes are remade and organized in three eras. The first one is a more mythological/low tech/magic rich era. Most of the old nations had themes that are now remade into nations of the three eras. For example Jotunheim changed into the three nations Niefelheim, Jotunheim and Utgård. No big change here. Other nations do not exist in all eras. Marignon emerges in the middle era. Another nation named Marverni could be viewed as their predecessors. Marverni is a nation of tribes led by druids and vergobrets. The nation is influenced by the celts as described in Caesar's war commentaries. Early Ermor is not at all what they will become in later eras. It is a nation before the fall, with pontifices, flamen and augurs. There are also nations influenced by hindu and japanese history, myth and folklore. There are about 20 nations in each era.

Cyber - Beginners to Dom2 were hurt be the steep learning curve and lack of tutorial and in-game advice : has anything been done for them?

KO : We are trying to make the game more accessible. The manual will be a lot better (not written by us) and more game mechanics will be explained.

Cyber - Again for newcomers, there is no real "campaign" in Dom2 (as for example in the HoMM series), allowing a more easy way to play solo and learn the game. Why that ? It's a difficult work but gratifying for solo players (and a commercial argument!). Is something like this in Dom3?

KO : Not currently, but if we decide to make a campaign for the game it is something that will be added when the game is nearly finished I believe.

Cyber - On the other hand Veterans rumbled about the AI weaknesses: poor recruiting choices (hordes of cheap ineffective troops starving eventually, no castle building), reliance on buffs and cheap summons in tactical battles: did you improve the AI? One thing that I would have seen is the possibility to give specific AI advantages (x% more gold/ressources/design points/supply...) on a "game" basis without having to resort to map editing.

KO : There have been some changes. The AI now builds castles. I'm not sure what other changes are implemented.

Cyber - Another frequent issue was the huge micromanagement in middle-end game, when it was very hard to properly keep track of item and gems allocation : something new here?

KO : I barely remember what changes has been made here (I haven't played dom2 for almost 2 years). There are changes, but there will probably still be some issues left when beta testing starts. Dominions is a complex game and some micro management will always be there. Hopefully Dominions 3 will not scare too many players away. Hmm, I just remembered a nice feature. All commanders has small icons representing items in his possession.

Cyber- Dominions 2 is a mostly-MP game, yet has no provision at all for diplomacy between players, even at its simplest form (AI nations can be declared allied though). It can be seen as a feature - after all the pretenders are all enemies- but some players play team games, and in nearly all games there are temporary alliances...

KO : The feature remains at the moment. I'm not certain about how this will develop.

Cyber - Fans did make serious rebalance work (spells, scales, creatures and items) through mods, did you take that as an input (or at least an influence) for Dom3 ? In particular, there's the question of the nearly-complete domination of big blood summons in the end game, has it been addressed or do you consider it a "feature"?

KO : It might have been considered a feature, but dom3 features another story. Blood summons will not be as dominant as in dom2.

Cyber - Speaking about mods and map editing, what will be the new features? Will it be possible to create new spells and items?

KO : The modding part is not yet finished, but the code has been remade so that modding will be easier to implement. Nation modding will definitely be more developed. Creation of new spells and items seem unlikely.

Cyber - What is the plan now for Illwinter ? Dominions 4, CoE 3, something else, or will you fall into slumber as the Rimtursar did?

KO : Sleep seems fine. Actually I have no idea. The last couple of years have been incredibly fun and rewarding, but I'm not sure where to go now. I work as a teacher and that is also quite rewarding from time to time.
I'll probably continue having fun. Fun might lead to another game title.
Who knows?

Cyber - Lastly, will we still get "Nagot Gick Fell" in Dom3?

KO : Always

[ioticus]

Interesting about blood summons being less dominant in DOM3. I hope they didn't take away blood summon options but rather make them harder to abuse, because many of the blood summons were really cool.

[Saber Cherry]

I believe that the best blood summons are just more expensive and/or higher research level. Has Illwinter ever dropped any spell, unit, site, or item from any Dominions yet? :)

[GuildBoss]

New national summons for several nations

This will be a nice change from the "everybody eventually gets everything" syndrome. A little uniqueness goes a long way, IMHO. I'd like to see more nation-specific spells too.

[ron_debry]

Only a true gaming gentleman would offer suggestions on how I could win the battle next time!


Bah - I was trying for superior and condescending :)

It is a good way to make the point that dom2/3 is never going to be for the casual gamer. I've been playing for about a year and a half and I still learn more tricks.

What's amazing is how well balanced it all is, considering how much is in there and how far away it is from rock/paper/scissors. Even those things that come off at first as horrible imbalances have counters. Not easy counters, but they're there if you plan properly. Plus the game is highly mod-able, and the MP community has put together a set of mods that tone down things like supercombatants, ghost riders and wrathful skies.

Now, Dave - go play your turn!

[SlyFrog]

It's not the actual graphics themselves that are problematic for me, it's the seeming lack of improvement over II, and the fact that most of the upgrades that are being discussed really appear to be minor fixes and additions for a greater price than an entirely new AAA game.

Yes, I understand that you are working in a basement, in your free time between globehopping ancient Norse religion lectures, labor of love, etc. You're certainly entitled to put whatever price on it you want. From my personal standpoint, there just is not enough there to justify buying another copy, in particular at that price and when I'm starting to get the feeling of annual/bi-annual $50+ charges to play the same version others are playing without much more being added.

Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind. There seem to be plenty of people here who are game to jump on anyway.

[Johan O]

It's not the actual graphics themselves that are problematic for me, it's the seeming lack of improvement over II, and the fact that most of the upgrades that are being discussed really appear to be minor fixes and additions for a greater price than an entirely new AAA game.

Yes, I understand that you are working in a basement, in your free time between globehopping ancient Norse religion lectures, labor of love, etc. You're certainly entitled to put whatever price on it you want. From my personal standpoint, there just is not enough there to justify buying another copy, in particular at that price and when I'm starting to get the feeling of annual/bi-annual $50+ charges to play the same version others are playing without much more being added.

Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind. There seem to be plenty of people here who are game to jump on anyway.
Well don't buy it then. As I said the demo should be inclusive enough for anyone to see if they think that improvements warrants a purchase.

The thing that irks me is that often people debate the graphics and UI as if they have some sort of right to better graphics or better UI. Or that the artwork and UI is some sort of personal slight.

Shapnel sets the price, not IW. Given their publishing history they hopefully some sort of clue about what kind of price range is right for niche products like dom3. Try the demo, buy it if it seems worth it, don't buy it if it doesnt'.

[metta]

The thing that irks me is that often people debate the graphics and UI as if they have some sort of right to better graphics or better UI. Or that the artwork and UI is some sort of personal slight.

Well, that's a pretty snotty thing to write. We all, consumers every one of us, are allowed to make decions about where we put our leisure dollars. Of course we don't have a right to better graphics, but by the same token, developers have no immunity to criticism.

We have a right to question whether we need to fork out another $65 on a product that is only an incremental upgrade over the one we already own. And if your posts in this thread are representative of this company's attitude to it's customers I guarantee you won't get my game dollars.

Perhaps, because I understand this is a side project for the devs, that won't matter to them. They can blithely continue with their day jobs and don't need to develop good customer relations. Although, I doubt that's an attitude their publisher shares.

[SlyFrog]

Well don't buy it then. As I said the demo should be inclusive enough for anyone to see if they think that improvements warrants a purchase.

Sheesh guy, I'm telling you that I won't. Based on what you've said here, and what I have seen so far, I won't. Sometimes people who develop and create things like feedback from a potential customer base, sometimes they don't.

I usually don't have the right to anything that I don't create myself. Fortunately, I generally have the ability to discuss my viewpoint on new products, which I exercise when it so suits me. Likewise, I do have the right to decide what I spend money on. You may or may not care about that. Fortunately, the discussion is not a discussion between you and me alone.

You certainly have the right not to care. You also have the right to be a snarky asshole about it or be pleasant about it. It's all good.

[Dave Perkins]

I promise to buy Dom3. Johan's comments are normal for a human being who has invested himself in a project and is hearing criticisms that he doesn't think are warranted. I love you all.

[GuildBoss]

Cripes, if we all bought music based on how much the musicians cared for our opinions/feelings/wants/needs we'd all be stuck listening to...STATIC!

If the game gives you enjoyment, then buy it. *shrugs*

[Jab2565]

The problem with asking for better graphics and/or UI for a strategy game, is that it does in effect have a direct impact on the gameplay. If I can't find the button or key to even understand what the hell is going on because it's so hidden by the interface, then I'm not even going to attempt to learn the game.

I played the dom2 demo and the game wasn't inituitive enough to warrent a purchase from me. In fact the only reason I have the game in my collection is because I won a random drawing from shrapnel during the holiday season. And guess what, I sat down read the manual tried the game, and didn't understand what the hell is going on, and put it back on my shelf.

[SlyFrog]

Cripes, if we all bought music based on how much the musicians cared for our opinions/feelings/wants/needs we'd all be stuck listening to...STATIC!

If the game gives you enjoyment, then buy it. *shrugs*

Who is buying based on what the developer thinks of their opinions? I think people are giving opinions and thoughts on what the game looks like so far. The developer is responding to that. I don't recall anyone saying, "I'm not buying because the developer didn't like what I had to say."

I do see some people responding with, "I feel sympathy for the poor developer, so I'm buying," but again, to each his own.

[Johan O]

Metta: Why is it a snotty thing to say? I have no issue with people saying they think the UI sucks, or that they don't like the graphics. I may not agree but I see where they are coming from. I don't question anyones right to discuss if the game is worth 55 or 65 or 10 bucks. It is not like I am throwing a Dr Smart fit. At least I don't think I am.

I guess I should bow out of this though, since as you are saying I am not doing anyone any favors. I was hungry, tired and not in the best of moods. You shouldn't judge the game by my conduct here though, especially since my contributions to the game and company are pretty small.

Slyfrog: Perhaps I came across as less than pleasent. It's just that sometimes the whole marketing shebang sticks in my craw. And I should have kept my mouth shut since people who have invested much more time and effort than I in this stands to lose from my remarks.

Thanks Dave.

[metta]

No worries, mate; get some food and rest :)

I've had a tight couple of days myself, and it's leaking out my fingers and onto my keyboard.

Peace.

[Kevin McGuire]

What's amazing is how well balanced it all is, considering how much is in there and how far away it is from rock/paper/scissors. Even those things that come off at first as horrible imbalances have counters. Not easy counters, but they're there if you plan properly.

Truly amazing. When Johan O. first broke out his tricked out Frost Giants in the QT3 Original game, I was convinced that I was doomed (playing Arco). Nothing seemed to be able to touch these guys - one SC giant ended up with heroic magic resistance, and things looked grim as he plowed through one Arco province after another, leaving a trail of dead astrologers as he went. If it had just been me, it would have been all over. However with a lot of help from Peter Frazier as Tien Chi, and Tom Chick as Pangea, I had enough time to research some (fairly) effective counters. Now, it did take three of us to beat back the scary giants, but I think much of that was learning the game (and of course Johan is really, really good). And in the process, some of the most exciting battles I've seen in a strategy game.

So yeah, little pixelated guys rock, and I'm in for the sequel regardless of what happens to the UI. Though I would LOVE to see an order for automated site searching for mages, and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing little damage numbers rising over battles.

[Dave Perkins]

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing little damage numbers rising over battles.

Wow, that would be pretty sweet. Or, will be?

[Graeme Dice]

Wow, that would be pretty sweet. Or, will be?

Damage numbers (http://shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/Dom3/Images/bandar_arco.jpg)

[Dave Perkins]

Damage numbers (http://shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/Dom3/Images/bandar_arco.jpg)

I'm not sure how much more carefully I can look for the numbers. I don't see any in that image. :?

[Graeme Dice]

I'm not sure how much more carefully I can look for the numbers. I don't see any in that image. :?

There's a red 34 superimposed by the lightning bolt.

[Dave Perkins]

There's a red 34 superimposed by the lightning bolt.

That there is. How embarrasing.

Also: 34 is owwies for whomever was smitten by that lightning bolt.

[SlyFrog]

Slyfrog: Perhaps I came across as less than pleasent. It's just that sometimes the whole marketing shebang sticks in my craw. And I should have kept my mouth shut since people who have invested much more time and effort than I in this stands to lose from my remarks.

That's alright. I was just a bit put off by the "You don't have to buy it," part.

I'm not trying to lead some type of crusade against the game. The game was simply being discussed, and I threw out my two cents as to some of the things I was disappointed with, and why I would not be buying it.

I've always found the response of, "You don't have to buy it," to be as bad as, "This game sucks," with no reasoning. Just like saying, "This game sucks," without reasoning or analysis adds next to nothing to the discussion, "You don't have to buy it," merely states the obvious and sounds defensive. It adds nothing. "We think that we have added a lot, including X, Y, and Z," adds something, as does your statement that you are not interested in working on UI and graphics, and people who want that are just looking in the wrong place.

So in the end, I took you as being a bit snarky, but I get that this really is a labor of love. I really like the idea of the underlying game, and think you've done a great thing. This round's just not for me, but I know based on history here that a lot of people will get a lot of enjoyment out of what you've done.

[Dave Perkins]

If the Protection level of Hoplites aren't increased from 17 to 18 in Dom3, there's no way I'm going to buy it.

Ha, ha! Anyhow, I like seeing this thread become momentarily snitty and then return to <3. :)

[Kareem]

You know as someone who has never played the game, or seen any screenshots, I expected it to look really bad. After looking at that damage meter screenshot, I don't think it looks as bad as everyone seems to suggest. Yeah looks a bit washed out and barren, but not too bad.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

You know as someone who has never played the game, or seen any screenshots, I expected it to look really bad. After looking at that damage meter screenshot, I don't think it looks as bad as everyone seems to suggest. Yeah looks a bit washed out and barren, but not too bad.

The battle scenes are fine. Too much paper doll in profile, but perfectly serviceable.

It's the main screen that gets me a little down. More colorful to be sure. But not necessarily more useful.

Troy

[Saber Cherry]

If the Protection level of Hoplites aren't increased from 17 to 18 in Dom3, there's no way I'm going to buy it.

Ha, ha! Anyhow, I like seeing this thread become momentarily snitty and then return to <3. :)

Yeah, let's all try to be a big happy group of Heart Companions.

*Divine Blessing*

[Enidigm]

New music. Pick some Hedningarna or Vasen or something :).

[Enidigm]

And honestly i've always loved the graphics of Dominions :).

Not the Map graphics (for that they need to sub-out Jason Lutes or some of the other map makers). But the unit graphics really conveyed the 'idea' or story behind the unit, and although were spartan still were nice to watch.

[Dave Perkins]

Yeah, let's all try to be a big happy group of Heart Companions.

*Divine Blessing*

I hadn't yet donned my Sacred Banner. :(

[Mark L]

Chalk up another one who actually quite likes Dominions's graphics! Keep on rockin', Johan O, the Dominions games are some of the best I've played in years and I am totally willing to pay the new price for the latest iteration. Do you know if it will be available for direct download with a pdf manual I can print? With that price, being able to skip shipping would be nice, and I imagine the download size should be managable...or did you put in massive cutscenes???

[Saber Cherry]

With that price, being able to skip shipping would be nice, and I imagine the download size should be managable...or did you put in massive cutscenes???

The program itself is unchanged, but your $5 goes to James Earl Jones (playing a Bane Lord), Christopher Walken (as Prince of Death), Hillary Clinton (as Virtue), and Anna Kournikova (the sassy Blood Slave).

You can more than skip the price of shipping if you pre-order now, and grab the $7.45 USD discount.

[Jasper]

The battle scenes are fine. Too much paper doll in profile, but perfectly serviceable.

It's the main screen that gets me a little down. More colorful to be sure. But not necessarily more useful.
I don't know, it looks much improved to me. Some notable improvements can be seen in this Main Screen Shot (http://shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/Dom3/Images/com_zoom.jpg):

- Province intelligence is accesible without extra clicking
- Local dominion is shown without clicking
- global gem stores are shown
- Province resources are shown on map, and gold and dominion candles are more accurate
- Provinces' units are shown, rather than just boxes
- You can apparently resize the unit display, which will hopefully allow showing more leaders.
- This Screen Shot (http://shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/Dom3/Images/mainscreen_agarta.jpg) shows what gems the commander is holding.
- Kristoffer mentioned in the above interview that you can also see items held
- This Screen Shot (http://shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/Dom3/Images/conjuration_water.jpg) shows spells filtered to show only water conjuration magic -- should be very helpfull to those learning the game.

Also, some non-UI things:
- Those look like random maps!
- Looks like province terrain might be shown on map, at least for random maps
- I see some tantalizing new water magic that will hopefully boost it a bit.

I suspect these improvements alone could cut the amount of time it takes me to play a turn in half, especially later in the game. Those of you who've played a bunch likely remember how much pain it could be tracking down wayward items and gems, keeping track of which units were in which provinces, and getting access to enemy/dominion intelligence reports in foreign provinces.

Hopefully the army deployment/order screen is similarily improved, as that was the other great time sink I remember. If it's not let us know Johan O, so we can fund a pool to get you to go heckle Johan K until until it sees similar improvement. ;-)

[Jason Lutes]

I read Johan's response as pretty reasonable. It's pretty easy to read a lot in to a few words on a messageboard, and I didn't think his reply was in any way offensive. I can certainly see where he's coming from.

[EDIT: Er, for some reason I responded to a page 1 post on page 3. Carry on!]

[Jason Lutes]

Not the Map graphics (for that they need to sub-out Jason Lutes or some of the other map makers).
Thanks for the nod, Genie.

Johann, if you're still reading, I'd be happy to work up some Dom3 maps for the release (at no charge) if you guys are interested. Of course, you may just want to keep everything tight and in-house out of the gate, which I would completely understand.

I agree with Jasper about all of the obivous UI improvements (except that awful font, which I've always thought was very out of place in a fantasy game). Loking forward very much to the game and getting my ass handed to me by the other bozos in this thread.

[Saber Cherry]

Thanks for the nod, Genie.

Johann, if you're still reading, I'd be happy to work up some Dom3 maps for the release (at no charge) if you guys are interested. Of course, you may just want to keep everything tight and in-house out of the gate, which I would completely understand.

I agree with Jasper about all of the obivous UI improvements (except that awful font, which I've always thought was very out of place in a fantasy game). Loking forward very much to the game and getting my ass handed to me by the other bozos in this thread.

You have my vote :) Your maps are by far the best I've ever seen for Doms 2. I promise that if I ever hand your ass to you in Doms 3, it won't be through a treaty violation (I'm reformed).

[Dave Perkins]

I totally vote for Jason, too.

[Ch. Hasslbauer]

That's a very generous offer by Jason, which gives him another 50 points on his swell guy score. By now he's entering into the four digit range.

[Johan O]

Thanks for the nod, Genie.

Johann, if you're still reading, I'd be happy to work up some Dom3 maps for the release (at no charge) if you guys are interested. Of course, you may just want to keep everything tight and in-house out of the gate, which I would completely understand.

I agree with Jasper about all of the obivous UI improvements (except that awful font, which I've always thought was very out of place in a fantasy game). Loking forward very much to the game and getting my ass handed to me by the other bozos in this thread.
Thank you Jason. Everyone would be absolutely delighted to have even one of your maps included.

[Jasper]

I'll 4th that motion! Jason's "Cradle" and "Paragonos" maps were easily my favorite.

Jason, if you do make such I map and are looking for a bit of aid, I'll happily volunteer to slog through the .map and double check that all the provinces are connected correctly and all the terrain fits the drawn image.

[Johan O]

I have sent you a pm Jason. I also noticed the other pm you sent me 2 months or so ago. I am very sorry I missed that before, especially considering the very kind offer in there. Not being very attentive I had missed the new messages flag, I had a couple of unread after the forum update and didn't notice the count increasing.

[jpinard]

Thanks for the nod, Genie.

Johann, if you're still reading, I'd be happy to work up some Dom3 maps for the release (at no charge) if you guys are interested. Of course, you may just want to keep everything tight and in-house out of the gate, which I would completely understand.

I agree with Jasper about all of the obivous UI improvements (except that awful font, which I've always thought was very out of place in a fantasy game). Loking forward very much to the game and getting my ass handed to me by the other bozos in this thread.

I vote for this too.

I'd just like to say on the map screens, if there was less brown, and maybe a font that imbues some kind of Medievelness or Fantasyness... would be really nice. I'm not saying use Elder Scrolls Daedric or Ultima script... but something fancier than what's used. Even something like Old English Fonts or Marriage Fonts would be nice.

[Ben Sones]

Satanick is a good modern Blackletter font that is bold and readable, and has a nice gothic feel.

[Dave Perkins]

Satanick is a good modern Blackletter font that is bold and readable, and has a nice gothic feel.

Jason Lutes on maps..

Ben Sones on the skins (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=12372)!

[Ben Sones]

Those skins aren't at the links in that thread any more, but you can still download them from Illwinter's Dom2 site.

Johan: if you want any interface skinning assistance for Dom3, just drop me a PM.

[Dave Perkins]

Ben: If you want to volunteer me to work on Dom3, it looks like I deserve it. :)

[jeffr]

If Illwinter incorporated some of the feedback from the hardcore Dom2 fanbase, then I'm pretty sure that many imbalances have been addressed and the meat of the game improved.

Zen, Quantum Mechanic and others from the Shrapnel boards significantly improved Dom2, in my opinion, by releasing a series of "Conceptual Balance" mods that removed imbalances and made many more spells/units/items/pretenders worthwile. It was like playing a different game. A much better game.

I think that some of these guys were involved in the beta and perhaps some of their Dom2 changes/suggestions were included in Dom3.

I have high hopes for Dom3. It looks like the UI is much more informative. Hopefully the game mechanics will be more transparent (although I thought the Dom2 UI did a decent job of this when you clicked on a stat). I also think the graphics look better.

What interests me much more than the UI and graphics, however, are the movement/combat/other rules. For example, do high movement units such as calvary get to move first on the strategic map, possibly attacking a slower army before it can move? Does unit facing matter on the tactical map? (i.e. units suffer more damage and/or are more likely to be hit when attacked from the flank or from behind) Gameplay rules like that are important to me more so than the graphics.