Will the last person leaving SOE please turn off the light?

[zabuni]

Rumor (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/sony/shakeup-at-sony-online-entertainment-162338.php) is, Raph's leaving.


A mole sends us word that Raph Koster has left the SOE to start up a new games studio. Cindy Armstrong, head of Business Development, has taken an offer to become the new USA honcho for Webzen. Moreover, Lucas Arts is not extending their Star Wars license. Yikes.

This is Kotaku, so take that with a:
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040701/040701_GlassHydrogen3.standard.jpg
Grain of salt.

[Marcus]

Rut Ro! The END IS NEAR!

[Matt Perkins]

I'm more of a what have they done for us recently sort of guy...so, why do I care of SOE loses that which they call talent? Their games definitely haven't been up to par.

[Rywill]

Yeah, I haven't played an SOE game regularly in many years (although I occasionally do a month or two-month stint in Planetside). The whole company could go under and I wouldn't care. And I've never played a Koster game because they get such bad reviews, and have never heard of Cindy Armstrong, so that stuff is sort of a shrug-and-back-to-what-I-was-doing thing too.

[SpoofyChop]

I think Raph should team up with John Romero and make Daikatana Online.

[Charles]

Rumor (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/sony/shakeup-at-sony-online-entertainment-162338.php) is, Raph's leaving.



This is Kotaku, so take that with a:
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040701/040701_GlassHydrogen3.standard.jpg
Grain of salt.

It's not a rumor that Raph is leaving, since Bioware announced last week that they hired him to work in their Austin studio.

[Brian Koontz]

It's not a rumor that Raph is leaving, since Bioware announced last week that they hired him to work in their Austin studio.

Austin is like the wonderful vagina of the games industry. Everyone wants to get in.

[zabuni]

That was Richard Vogel and Gordon Walton, Koster's name wasn't mentioned at the time. We still don't know where, and if, he's going.

[Charles]

Oops. I always get Rich Vogel and Raph Koster's names mixed up. God knows why.

[Matt Perkins]

Oops. I always get Rich Vogel and Raph Koster's names mixed up. God knows why.
Whew...had me scared there for a minute.

[TheWombat]

AFAIK Raph didn't have anything to do with EQII, my drug of choice at the moment, so while I like Raph a lot, personally, and wish him well wherever he ends up, I doubt it'll make much difference to my gaming in the short run.

I still think SOE has a lot of ability, institutionally, and a lot of good ideas.

[Rob Beschizza]

Austin is like the wonderful vagina of the games industry. Everyone wants to get in.

Marvellous!

[Matt Perkins]

AFAIK Raph didn't have anything to do with EQII, my drug of choice at the moment, so while I like Raph a lot, personally, and wish him well wherever he ends up, I doubt it'll make much difference to my gaming in the short run.

I still think SOE has a lot of ability, institutionally, and a lot of good ideas. SOE...the SOE? Sony Online Entertainment? That division/company? I just ask because it's not often you see "ability, institutionally, and a lot of good ideas" used to describe SOE.

[DeepT]

Hopefully if he does start on a new MMOG there is one lesson hear learned:
Players should not be able to build houses in the game world.

UO was a clusterfuck, and then within a week SWG was just as bad. I fortunattly saw tatoine before housing in beta. There were some large planes you could run around and you actually could explore.

Then they turned on housing and withing a week every scrap of buildable ground hasd something on it. There were no more wilds, just forests of houses.

[Brian Rucker]

That's just wrong Deep T. Only messes were around big Starports like Coronet, Mos Eisley, and because of a cheese factor I won't get into - the mining outpost on Dantooine.

Anywhere else you might find a lone house, little complex or a city scattered around but it wasn't that bad. My character spent quite a bit of time enjoying the solitude of the wilderness and hunting/surveying on many worlds.

Smartest thing about SWG was player cities and player owned property. Kept my community around quite a bit longer than anything else the game had to offer. Some are still there. I think the city we founded in our first week on SWG is still there. If there are any players left here and one ends up on Starsider they'll find Vagabond's Rest remains relatively active on Naboo.

[DeepT]

I didn't play it in retail, just beta. It beta it was all packed with houses or ore extractors or factories or whever. It was just around starports either. You could have gone to the most far outreaches in tatoine and it still would have have been packed with houses. Maybe its differant in retail, maybe because hardly anyone plays it anymore.

[Alan Dunkin]

Hopefully if he does start on a new MMOG there is one lesson hear learned:
Players should not be able to build houses in the game world.

UO was a clusterfuck, and then within a week SWG was just as bad. I fortunattly saw tatoine before housing in beta. There were some large planes you could run around and you actually could explore.

Then they turned on housing and withing a week every scrap of buildable ground hasd something on it. There were no more wilds, just forests of houses.

Well let's quantify this.. you're talking about housing in the beta.

I played SWG for quite a long time, way over six months, and Tatooine was not like this at all. There were still very wide expanses of absolutely nothing.

Which is not to say that there weren't wide expanses of poorly laid-out housing, tons of farms/mines and later on player cities, but there was still a lot of places that had absolutely nothing.

--- Alan

[Aszurom]

On the bright side, it's now back to absolutely nothing. Lucas takeover FTW!

[Gary Whitta]

I played SWG for quite a long time, way over six months, and Tatooine was not like this at all. There were still very wide expanses of absolutely nothing.
Isn't that kinda what Tatooine is supposed to be like, though?

"What a desolate place this is."

[DeepT]

So what kind of MMOG would bioware do, espeically with Raph there? Weren't they trying to develop their own fantasy world or something? I suppose its to much to hope for a non fantasy based MMOG, or at the very least non pure fantasy based like steam punk or even high tech and high magic.

[HRose]

Rumor confirmed.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Rumor confirmed.

Link?

I heard another rumor today that Bioware might be getting the Star Wars MMO license if/when SOE loses it.

[DeepT]

What are you stupid? Just go to HRose's blog, look back about 6 months. Its all there.

[TheWombat]

SOE...the SOE? Sony Online Entertainment? That division/company? I just ask because it's not often you see "ability, institutionally, and a lot of good ideas" used to describe SOE.

Heh, I have no problem swimming upstream on this one. I have spent a lot of quality tiime with EQ and EQII, and with Planetside. IMO EQII is a very good and very well supported and run MMO at the moment, and yes, from what I've seen of the expansions and tweaks SOE is making and has made for it, they do indeed know what they are doing.

I admit that SWG was something I could not at all abide, and that SOE's attitude at times in the past has been troubling. But I emphasize "at times," and note that they really are a schizoid bunch. Some products/teams are top notch, others seem like their from Pluto or something.

[Matt Perkins]

Wombat, I don't argue the joy you took out of it, but SOE hated it's customer base when it was running EQ. With a white hot passion of a thousand suns hate. I can't speak for EQII, but SWG has had a million problems and planetside just isn't worth a monthly payment of 12 bucks...at least not for me.

SOE has never been top of the line and though they did a great job advancing the MMORPG industry when it was just a baby, I wouldn't say that was what they did so much as that was what some artists and all of the design work put into MUDs did.

*shrugs*

[Charles]

Link?

I heard another rumor today that Bioware might be getting the Star Wars MMO license if/when SOE loses it.


I heard that as well, through the grapevine. Can't vouch for the accuracy, since it's an unreliable source who often confuses things and gets them wrong, but I'd say it's not impossible.

[Matthew Gallant]

Raph didn't leave SOE, he just transitioned into a New Employment Experience.

[Mark Crump]

Wombat, I don't argue the joy you took out of it, but SOE hated it's customer base when it was running EQ. With a white hot passion of a thousand suns hate. I can't speak for EQII, but SWG has had a million problems and planetside just isn't worth a monthly payment of 12 bucks...at least not for me.
*shrugs*

For some reason that I have yet to figure out, the EQ2 community reps are the only ones I've seent that do a good job at handling things. The SWG boards are a mess.

[LokeUtgaard]

I won't mind going on record for saying that I will probably try the next Raph Koster game, whatever it might be. I really like his core game design philosophy. The original UO (reffered to in another thread today as "the lawless years") is still the MMOG that I have the fondest memories from. It might be because it was all new back then, but I think that there's more to it... And SW:G was very close to being a good game. In fact, if meaningful loot had been added, I think I might have continued playing SW:G.

UO and SW:G was the MMOG's that most resembled "persistent gaming worlds" to me. I felt as if I had an effect on the world. I had a house (also there when I was not logged in), I ran a shop (ditto), etc. Whereas DAoC, EQ, AC, Jumpgate, AO, WoW and all the others all feels like a game I log into to play for a while. Log out again, and have not really left a trace or "made a difference". I really enjoy playing these games though - but they are exactly that. Games I enjoy to play. UO, in particular, was an online world I enjoyed being a part of.

So best of luck to DesignerDragon from me. I, for one, am looking forward to the results of your next project!

[quatoria]

Raph's posts on QT3, and his calm and intelligent response to various forms of criticism have basically ensured that he'll always get the benefit of the doubt from me. SoE will never get it, but I think it would be ridiculous to blame all of SoE's failings on him.

[EvilIdler]

I agree with quatoria there - he was just one of many tentacles on the slimy
octopus that is SOE.

[LionelThompson]

SOE...the SOE? Sony Online Entertainment? That division/company? I just ask because it's not often you see "ability, institutionally, and a lot of good ideas" used to describe SOE.

Was it Turbine that came up with the /pizza command? I don't THINK so!

[mlatin]

Was it Turbine that came up with the /pizza command? I don't THINK so!
No, but Turbine did have /gokart. :)

[instant0]

No, but Turbine did have /gokart. :)

and /YMCA

[Brian Rucker]

This a little rant I shot off a month or two ago on the VR forum. Which seems, if the rumors are correct, uncannily timely. Take that HRose. Wrote it in response to this finger waggling (http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/02/24/what-are-the-lessons-of-mmorpgs-today/) by Raph, in part, and partially in response to the overadoring responses on the forum.

That's nice Raph's throwing down the gauntlet. Now I wish the dumbass would pick it up himself.

Here's my lament. My gauntlet.

Raph Koster says the most brilliant things (and sometimes ridiculous outrageous things - to get a response) about what needs to be done with game design. I don't agree with all of it, like his seeming fascination with direct PvP, but much of it is spot on. What fries my shorts is he talks this amazing game, and on occasion displays those insights to good effect - the unique things we loved about SWG for example, but he never follows though. I'm guessing it's because there are other forces getting exerted via marketing or licence holders or just other devs who have other agendas.

But if you're going to develop realistic economics shouldn't you have realistic warfare and combat? Not gamey crap. Gamey crap economies aren't good so why should ridiculous combat systems that don't reflect the source material be good? Likewise everything else in SWG that just was so freakin' schitzophrenic. Why folks that can train rancors? Was that a common sight? Why is food giving magical powerups? So the tiny market segment that wanted to roleplay cooks could? Why not just make food essential to, say, living? Because that would alienate power gamers and casual gamers (as opposed to simulationists)?

You brainstorm a brilliant multiposition ship system and hire graphic designers to create beautiful vistas in space. And what? For what? Just blowing up static swarms of NPC ships? Or getting involved in the, huge amount of work for little return, space PvP system? Why not weave the goddamn economy into space? Why not have cargos, smugging and ship boarding integrated?

Why all these minor factions that don't resemble, often, their canon sources and have little effect on gameplay other than to be bulletpoints - Oh, Corsec's in the game. In the game and getting mowed down on Corellia. With zero consequence. Wouldn't it have been better to drop all that stuff and just focus, intially, on the Empire and the Alliance? Folks who should be shooting each other?

Why all the crap from earlier (and later) periods? Why not just focus on getting Episode IV era stuff right?

Why uber loot from critters at all - that just turns SWG into another hunt the wumpus game? Why player Jedi? Why...

If you're looking to create an immersive experience of city building, economic webworks, complex systems that appeal to thoughtful gamers and fans - why incorporate the megatons of absolute crap (either halfassed SW inclusions or completely arbitrary gamish crap that is the antithesis of SW) that would repel them? To broaden the base of potential players? Hell, lowest common denominator and the folks you want to lead cities and build PAs are not gonna be the same in a thinking man's MMO.

You lament. You lament. You made this. You gave into the crappy and shallow expectations of the very game design decisions you're pointing that stubby old finger at now, Raph. And you can do better.

Just fucking stomp on your cell phone. Change your ISP provider, your email and your land line's number. Officially get a name change. Go in for plastic surgery. Fake your own death. Do what you gotta, Raph.

And then come back as an indie designer. An unknown. With all those good ideas and whatever you've got stashed in the bank. Talk to a few close associates that would invest in something crazy and good and honest and real.

Then fucking do it. As yourself. As the guy that loved MUDs and had some great ideas. Not as the posterboy of MMOdom. Not as the Quoteable Visionary.

Just you, Raph. Do it. Fuck the money. Built it right, you know you've got the right ideas, and it will come.

[Matt Perkins]

Raph didn't start with UO, I thought he came on a couple of years later... Anyone?

I do like how Raph posts and I've read some of his site, but some of the games he's been associated with haven't given me much confidence. If he started with UO, then I could be all wrong, but I thought he was brought in to "fix" it a couple of years in.

[Mark Crump]

No disrespect to Raph intended, but can someone explain to me exactly what he did at SOE after he became an executive?

[instant0]

Raph didn't start with UO, I thought he came on a couple of years later... Anyone?


.. UO 97 did'nt need fixing. ... but they did it anyway :-(

If he was Designer Dragon, I believe he was part of the UO team from the launch, at least I remember the name.

The GMs were a lot nicer during the beta :-)

[LokeUtgaard]

Raph Koster/Designer Dragon was lead designer of both the orignal UO and UO:Second Age.

[DeepT]

I was really dissapointed with SWG and I was one of the people who was saying that despite SOE, Raph would make a real difference.

Despite the dismal failure of SWG (by contrast of what it should have been), I am not ready to point the finger at Raph and say it was all his fawlt.

We do not know the details of the work enviroments. Some projects are doomed from the start. Maybe Lucas said I want to do 30 million dollars worth of a game. Then SOE said, Ill do it for 20 million! No matter how you try and stretch it, you will not get 30 million dollars worth of matierlas from 20 million dollars. You either have to lower your expectations and be ok with a 20 million dollar game, or get another 10 million dollars.

So Raph may have shown up, and they said, we want wookies, and ewoks, and space ships, and reble bases and imperal AT-ATs and we want this war between both factions, and we a bunch of planets and .......

.... You have 60 developers (the rest is management) and 3 years to do it.


Or maybe... Raph just totally fucked up beyond belif.

We will never know. Raph does not strike me as the kind of person who would give us the dirt on SOE after he found another job. Even of SOE was the bane of his existance and made his life miserable for the last few years, I do not think he would come here, or on his web site and write up some kind of scathing article on SOE. Id love to be wrong, industry dirt is fun to read. But somehow, I really doubt that will ever happen.

[jpinard]

Doesn't Lucas have enough money to put his fans into the world he created... even if he doesn't make a big fat profit? Maybe he doens't game... but if I were Lucas I'd have put the extra 75 cents toward the development. $5 or $10 million for Lucas has got to be like me buying an ice cream cone. And when he re-releases all the Star Wars movies on HG-DVD and Blu-Ray he'll make yet another zillion dollars.

[Jamie Madigan]

Doesn't Lucas have enough money to put his fans into the world he created... even if he doesn't make a big fat profit?
I think you have him confused with Santa Claus.

[DeepT]

Remember the game ET?

Now think the same thing, only replace ET with dancing Jar-Jar Binks dolls.

Besides, Lucas proabbly doesn't think that little. He is the big ideas guy. His big idea is create a SW MMOG. He is done. Then the 'little' people need to work out the details. He (Lucas) then walks way, and thinks 'Cars that run on water!' I'm a fucking genious! Why doesn't anyone else think of these things. The little people who know nothing actually about making games in the least, which is why they are in charge of this project to begin with, start finding out how to do this.

So they go out into the world and see that SOE has EQ, the biggest MMOG out there. They have never played this game, never talked to anyone in the community, so they have no idea if the game is good or not. Infact the idea that the game might have serious flaws, along with the company who made it,which incidently didn't actually exist anymore if they had bothered to check.

So they ask SOE about it. Huge emerald dollar signs appear in the eyes of SOE. Of course they can do it. Think of all the gold-plated rolls royces they could afford! So, SOE tells the minions of Lucas they will be rich beyond thier wildest dreams and make a deal to make the game. They should be the ones to make it, after all they made EQ (not).

SOE, being cheapscates pays rediculous bonuses (in various forms) to the management team and spend a sizeable chunk of cash before they even start making the game. Eventually they hire developers to actually make the game on a reduced budget. After a while they realise things are out of control, but do not realise its because all the actual talented people left. They high a big gun, Raph to save them. Even Raph can't. As the deadline looms ahead they decided to spend most of thier money on thier largest asset, the Starwars brand name. After all, even they said they could sell crap in a box and people would still buy it. In that, they were not wrong. They advertise the shit out of it. Release day comes, and their boxes of crap actually fly off the shelves.

But then, the other half of the equation comes to bear. Subscriber retention. In thier scramble to sell boxes, they forgot that this is plumb of MMOGs. Box sales mean nothing compared to people who pay every month. Nature took its course and the rest is history.



All of the above is speculation of course, but I think it is proabbly pretty close to what actually happend.

[mouselock]

If you're looking to create an immersive experience of city building, economic webworks, complex systems that appeal to thoughtful gamers and fans - why incorporate the megatons of absolute crap (either halfassed SW inclusions or completely arbitrary gamish crap that is the antithesis of SW) that would repel them? To broaden the base of potential players? Hell, lowest common denominator and the folks you want to lead cities and build PAs are not gonna be the same in a thinking man's MMO..

Well, as a quick rejoinder, it's pretty useless to be a weapon crafter if there's nobody out there who actually needs your weapons.

[Michael Fortson]

Technical difficulties aside (and that's a very large thing to set aside), everything that was good about SWG -- and there was undeniable brilliance and a tremendous depth that I begin to doubt we will *ever* see again on that scale -- happened under his watch.

After his promotion, the (apparently inexperienced, sabotaged, or just unprepared) people who succeeded the original team took that game apart, piece by piece (and sometimes in great swaths), removing every last vestige of soul that remained.

I doubt many of you will be aware of the reference, but it's a bit like Firefly in 1996. Looking at MySpace today, you're left wondering what the fuck people spent the last ten years doing on the Internet, considering what they had to start with -- had anyone with a clue been paying attention.

[zabuni]

confirmed (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2585&Itemid=2), and not confirmed (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2586&Itemid=2)

[DeepT]

So that is what Raph looks like. Not quite how I envisioned him. I was thinking more salt & pepper.

[Michael Fitch]

Officially confirmed (http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/24/leaving-soe/#more-404).

[Rollory]

Well, as a quick rejoinder, it's pretty useless to be a weapon crafter if there's nobody out there who actually needs your weapons.

Eh? That's not a rejoinder, that's a non sequitur, and a rather silly one too. Who cares whether there are weapon crafters in the game? What does weapon crafting have to do with Star Wars (ok except maybe for lightsabers, but that should be a minigame in and of itself)? You don't create fake gameplay just to allow a certain niche of behavior that some people think should be there. You create the game first, make sure it is true to the spirit of the source material, and see what kinds of behaviors and activities result from it. If you need to, you tweak things to make those more interesting, and tweak the resulting economy to make sure it fits with the gameplay. But you don't add in entirely extraneous crap just because somebody on a message board is going to complain if it's not there.

I say this as someone who spent about half his time in Neocron getting object blueprints, copying bluebrints, getting parts, making objects, etc. etc. all just because it was fun. A good crafting system is worth having. But don't shoehorn it into a game where it isn't wanted. Star Wars isn't about crafting, it's about action and blasters and daring leaps and spaceships.

[Brian Rucker]

I definitely agree with Rollory however it's interesting that the most compelling aspect of the game, for me, was city building and the RP that came out of it. And that really doesn't fit the natural thrust a Star Wars theme. Perhaps making it base building (a cross between the GCW bases and city building in SWG) or developing an underworld, resistance movement, within existing structures would have been a good alternative that fit better.

In addition to gameplay in wilderness there should have been gobs more relevancy for built up NPC cities and orbital stations. The fact that it became such a hunt the critter for loot in the wild game really, dramatically, undermined any sense of Star Warsiness. It was cool for scouts and the like, which does fit the EU a bit, but a game about Star Wars that overlooks urban locations and interiors, doesn't even give them equal time, devalues the themes in a big way.