Can RTS work on a console?

[Novacaine]

EA is planning to put Battle for Middle Earth II on the XBOX 360. What do people think? Will it be fun?

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/697/697552p1.html

[Chris Nahr]

They can work on a console with the Revolution controller. I'm not sure what's the point of putting an RTS on a console with a standard controller, though. The IGN article claims the 360 interface is good but I'll note you still have to use an analogue stick to move a cursor around the map. That's always cumbersome compared to a variable-speed pointing device.

[steve]

They can work on a console with the Revolution controller.
I'd think that would be exhausting, considering the amount of movement you do with the mouse.

The question isn't whether an RTS can work on a console; of course it can. It just won't be the exact same control scheme you see on PCs.

[Charles]

I've always wondered why there haven't been more custom interface devices for consoles. It's surprising that there aren't, say, trackball devices out there. There used to be, and I think there were a few wacky devices made for the PS2, but few if any were ever supported by developers.

[extarbags]

RTS was born on a console. They can work fine if they don't stick to the Warcraft/C&C mold.

[DeepT]

What do you mean RTS was born on a console?

The only way they can work is a really good controller (which the standard ones are not) and/or a really dumbed down easy interface.

[steve]

The only way they can work is a really good controller (which the standard ones are not) and/or a really dumbed down easy interface.
This is the wrong way to look at it. It doesn't have to be dumbed down--it has to be different. It may not make it an RTS in the classic sense, but it may provide much of the same appeal.

[Matthew Gallant]

What do you mean RTS was born on a console?
Herzog Zwei (http://www.classicgaming.com/rotw/herzog.shtml).

[steve]

Herzog Zwei (http://www.classicgaming.com/rotw/herzog.shtml).
Utopia. (http://www.mobygames.com/game/intellivision/utopia-)

[extarbags]

This is the wrong way to look at it. It doesn't have to be dumbed down--it has to be different. It may not make it an RTS in the classic sense, but it may provide much of the same appeal.

Examples: Phantom Dust, Sacrifice.

[DeepT]

At this point, Id like to link to another game which was the first RTS and its just a screen shot of a giant pixel.

[DeepT]

This is the wrong way to look at it. It doesn't have to be dumbed down--it has to be different. It may not make it an RTS in the classic sense, but it may provide much of the same appeal.

Ok let me clarify... You can not have RTS like you do on PCs on a console. Until you come up with a really good RTS controller, which IMHO must have some kind of mouse like interface for rapid and accurate selecting, you will never have the PC experience of epic battles where you coordiante huge armies and build complex systems of defenses. Asside from the mouse, how about the keyboard? I can't imagine a game without teams Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and Delta (and sometimes Epsilon and Zeta too). Super weapons are team zero (if we have them), factories are on team 9.

Yes you can design an RTS around those limits, but they will just be differant like RPGs born on consoles are differant the RPGs born on PCs.

[unbongwah]

I've always wondered why there haven't been more custom interface devices for consoles.
As a game developer, you always want your game to work with the system's default controller, unless you're creating a custom controller specifically for your game (e.g., Guitar Hero). Because if you require gamers to buy separate controllers to play your game, you've just shrunk your potential audience: not everyone is going to be willing to shell out extra money to play your game. Even light-gun games typically let you aim with a gamepad as well.

Same reason PC games start with a mouse & keyboard interface first, then include support for other peripherals: because developers know everyone has a mouse (or other pointing device) and keyboard, but anything else is optional.

As for the general question of RTS games on consoles, they can and already have been done: random examples just from the last generation include Kessen, Goblin Commander, and Kingdom Under Fire. They just don't play the same way they typically do on PCs. Different controllers necessitate different interfaces.

[roguefrog]

Hotkeys are shithoused on a console. A PC RTS without hotkeys is something I don't want to experience. I need a wide array of commands that are "one button press" simple. A gamepad has like less than 10 buttons.

[caesarbear]

Imagine a Battlezone game on console, RTS + FPS...

[DeepT]

And if you do that, you loose something for it. You loose percision and its hard to adjust tactics on the fly, but gain simplicity.

You learn to depend on it. For me, trying to use a controller and guide a large army would be like trying to playing a piano with oven mitts on.

How do you do things like send army one to the left side in to fent an attack, then send the main army into the right side, and then quickly call in some air power for a few well placed surgicle strikes?

[DeepT]

Imagine a Battlezone game on console, RTS + FPS...

Yea, but BZ you really only controll one unit. You can direct a few others, but its very limited. It would work great on a console, but its not really a PC class RTS game.

[steve]

Hotkeys are shithoused on a console. A PC RTS without hotkeys is something I don't want to experience. I need a wide array of commands that are "one button press" simple. A gamepad has like less than 10 buttons.
People shouldn't try to translate a current PC interface to a console RTS, and you shouldn't think that's what people would be doing. In this mythical future console RTS, there'd be no need for hotkeys because the interface would work completely differently.

[Dave Long]

Imagine a Battlezone game on console, RTS + FPS...

You mean like The Outfit, which just came out on 360?

People gotta stay more tuned in.

[Charles]

As a game developer, you always want your game to work with the system's default controller, unless you're creating a custom controller specifically for your game (e.g., Guitar Hero). Because if you require gamers to buy separate controllers to play your game, you've just shrunk your potential audience: not everyone is going to be willing to shell out extra money to play your game. Even light-gun games typically let you aim with a gamepad as well.

Same reason PC games start with a mouse & keyboard interface first, then include support for other peripherals: because developers know everyone has a mouse (or other pointing device) and keyboard, but anything else is optional.


I know all that. Doesn't mean there can't be specialized controllers as well.

[unbongwah]

I know all that. Doesn't mean there can't be specialized controllers as well.
No, it doesn't, but if only a subset of your target audience owns or is willing to buy a particular peripheral, what's the incentive to a developer to support it, much less require it? I.e., where's the market for it? It still boils down to money - as in, how are you going to make it off your game?

I think that's why truly specialized controllers are usually included with specific games, rather than sold separately: e.g., DDR dance pads, Karaoke Revolution's microphones, Guitar Hero's guitar, etc. Those games are designed in tandem with the controller. You'll still see things like driving wheels or arcade sticks for fighting games, but these just take the standard controller and reshape it.

This is part of what makes the Revolution so daring, IMHO: they're trying to reinvent the game controller fairly radically, which requires developers to reinvent their interfaces, which (ideally) give birth to new game ideas.

[Dave Long]

Ah, but the best thing about the Revolution controller is that you can plug another one into it. That enables developers to do whatever they choose for an attachment so specialized attachments should be more common and can simply be shipped with the game.

[Qmanol]

I honestly don't see what makes the revolution plugin ability much different from a standard custom controller already.

#1 It makes it wireless. Basically all this seems to do is _preserve_ the ability to plug stuff in. Otherwise custom controllers would have become more expensive with the need for radio gear.

#2 It lets you make a simpler peripheral because the 1-handed nature of the remote means that it can still be used. This seems to me to be the only real difference. If you want to make a DDR or GH mat or guitar, wouldn't it still cost the same? Why then is there any more incentive to make these kinds of addons?

[Lokust]

I played the hell out of multiplayer C&C:Red Alert on the playstation, using link cable & 2 TVs. I have nothing but fond memories of it, but there have been some pretty big strides in UI technology in this genre, and I don't know if I could go back to a more limited control scheme.

[Don Quixote]

How do you do things like send army one to the left side in to fent an attack, then send the main army into the right side, and then quickly call in some air power for a few well placed surgicle strikes?

I don't know, I did this all the time in Kingdom Under Fire:the Crusaders, pretty much exactly as you describe it. Never had a problem. And hell, I played through the whole of Warhammer: Dark Omen on the playstation. That was a great game.

[DeepT]

Id really have to play these console versions to comment on the differnce between the PC versions and see if they pulled it off. I can only remeber one console port of a PC RTS. I cant remember what it was, only that the console versions was completly gimped compared to the PC version.

[Novacaine]

I remember that they ported Red Alert to the Playstation, but I never bought it. I heard that it was difficult to play.

[TomChick]

Fuckers, quit having these cool threads on RTSs while I'm gone!

RTSs coming to console is inevitable, and it's really interesting seeing developers wrestle with how to do it. I think Ron Millar's Goblin Commander was underappreciated for its little paradigm twist. Then there's The Outfit. I think both games owe a lot to Sacrifice.

I actually saw the Xbox 360 version of Battle for Middle Earth II at EA right before I went to GDC. Louis Castle also gave a talk there, presumably on their console interface. The strange thing is that they're not changing the gameplay one iota. This is the full-featured unadulterated version of BFME2 on the 360, but driven with a gamepad. Yikes.

Does it work? I think it might. Does it work as well as it does on a PC? Absolutely not.

-Tom

[Jab2565]

About 30 minutes after I first heard about the revolution controller, I started thinking about how Rts games could work on there. I would think though that some of the advance controls(formations, stances, even hotkeys) would have to be adjusted or scrapped to fit on the controller. Of course the unit Ai would need to be advance to make up for these issues.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Fuckers, quit having these cool threads on RTSs while I'm gone!

Never leave us again.

Troy

[MightyMooquack]

I remember that they ported Red Alert to the Playstation, but I never bought it. I heard that it was difficult to play.

It was. It was one of the most horrible kludges of a control system I have ever seen.

Suprisingly, the N64 port of the original C&C was much better in this respect. It was actually playable, though it suffered from some horrid framerate issues. It still did not hold a candle to using a mouse, of course.

[unbongwah]

RTSs coming to console is inevitable, and it's really interesting seeing developers wrestle with how to do it. I think Ron Millar's Goblin Commander was underappreciated for its little paradigm twist. Then there's The Outfit. I think both games owe a lot to Sacrifice.
Oh, you and your infatuation with Sacrifice! You scribble little hearts around "Tom + Sacrifice 4ever" in your notebook, don't you?

As has been pointed out, RTS has been on consoles for 25 years now - there's no "coming" involved, they've always been here. [Unless you speak specifically about RTSs in the C&C/Warcraft mold, of course, which are less common, but I'm presuming your definition is not that narrow.]

That said, their interfaces don't usually mirror PC RTSs - nor should they. Direct ports don't make much sense: you customize your interface to best suit your controller. Otherwise, you might as well presume that a flight stick and a steering wheel are interchangeable.

[TriggerHappy]

Pikmin 2 worked pretty damn well, didn't it?

[jim crawford]

Pikmin 2 worked pretty damn well, didn't it?
I was gonna bring up Pikmin; it's more of a puzzle game but it definitely has an RTS interface. Is Pikmin 2 more of an RTS?

[Jab2565]

Somewhat, each pikmin is good for something, and with pikmin 2 you have two guys so you can split them up into two groups. I found it easier to only bring 10 or 20 pikmin at one time to fight boss since it's easier to control that way.